It is not useful for one SLE who has never really tried it, and which
consistently ignores the Manifesto's advice. Apparently science and logic are
equally not useful for the SLE. I can see how your declaration could be
comforting, but the conclusion is not warranted.

In fact, one successful Agile project at any SLE disproves the conclusion.

R

On Feb 11, 2011, at 10:07 PM, "MarvinToll.com" <MarvinToll@...> wrote:

> Tim... I'm ready to breathe, be, and accept that the Agile Manifesto v. 2001
is not useful for Successful Large Enterprises. Does that mean that we agree???
>
> --- In extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com, Tim Ottinger <linux_tim@...> wrote:
> >
> > Marvin:
> >
> > It is easier to move a pebble than a boulder.
> >
> > A friend told me that he has no interest in large corporations at all,
because
> > those are places people go to die after they tire of their hearts and souls.
> > This is not entirely unfair, and not universally true. It is also not wrong.
> >
> > My experience is that change and large organizations are largely
incompatible.
> > It is the stability of large companies that draws people to them. People who
> > seek stability are less likely to adopt any new technique successfully. This
is
> > why they go from paying lip service to one technique to paying lip service
to
> > another.
> >
> >
> > Agile requires companies to make a significant change. Small companies have
less
> > trouble with this than large ones, because stability and inertia are not
their
> > stock-in-trade.
> >
> >
> > That being said, some companies have not conformed the life out of their
people
> > (at least not in all their divisions), and have great success going agile in
> > specific teams or locations. I've seen cases where three buildings on one
> > business campus go to XP in a big way, but he fourth blocks it, pretends,
and
> > internally refuse to try to change anything at all. This despite strong
> > upper-management support.
> >
> >
> > There are bastions of stability that we cannot assail. Breathe. Be. Accept.
> >
> > Tim Ottinger
> > http://agileinaflash.blogspot.com/
> > http://agileotter.blogspot.com/
> >
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I don't know of any offhand.

R

On Feb 11, 2011, at 9:37 PM, "MarvinToll.com" <MarvinToll@...> wrote:

> Can anyone name one Fortune-25 company that has embraced the 'Agile Manifesto
v. 2001' (4 values and 12 principles) as an effective model for enterprise-wide
globally distributed application development guidance (aka 'working software')
in the past ten years with a successful outcome that resembles the model?
>
> If yes, is there a hands-on practitioner contact with which I can speak?
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

On 02/11/2011 04:09 AM, ronjeffriesacm@... wrote:
> To do Agile, you have to do what Agile says. To adapt Agile, you have to adapt
using Agile principles. Your organization has never done either. Your
organization has not tried Agile.

I am endlessly fascinated by the number of people who say Agile is wrong
for their company without ever saying, "Hey, maybe the problem isn't
with Agile."

Of course, I'm sure there were plenty of royal courtiers who thought the
whole democracy thing was obviously implausible. I am imagining a French
aristocrat circa Louis XV asking people to name one, just one major
empire that has adopted voting by commoners. And taking the lack of
answer as proof that monarchy is eternal.

William


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- "MarvinToll.com" <MarvinToll@...> wrote:
> Can anyone name one Fortune-25 company that has embraced the
> 'Agile Manifesto v. 2001' (4 values and 12 principles) as an
> effective model for enterprise-wide globally distributed
> application development guidance (aka 'working software') in
> the past ten years with a successful outcome that resembles
> the model?
>
> If yes, is there a hands-on practitioner contact with which
> I can speak?

Marvin,
Can you name one Fortune-25 company that has embraced any particular unique
recommendation that you have made to them (that they were not already doing and
not already a common practice in the industry) consistently across their whole
organization, and produced the results you promised?

Well, there is an opportunity to draw your own conclusion about what is occuring
within Ford:

http://submit2011.agilealliance.org/node/10537

If you are interested "Add a new public comment".

--- In extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com, ronjeffriesacm@... wrote:
>
> Hi Marvin,
>
> I suspect this conclusion is overstated, and backward. I suspect your
difficulties are not about scale at all, but about culture. I suspect they are
not about Large Distributed Enterprise but about the one you happen to work at.
I suspect that even that one could apply the Manifesto quite directly and
fruitfully if they cared to.
>
> I suspect you are seeing, not Can't, but Won't.
>
> As for the thesis that Agile won't "scale" to the LDE, I suspect
>
> ... That there are counter-examples;
> ... That it depends how they are distributed;
> ... That your SLE isn't really working at the scale of the largest possible or
even existing Agile distributed efforts;
> ... That Ford's failure ever to try Agile can hardly be taken as proof that
Agile cannot work for all Large Distributed Enterorises in all time and space.
>
> In short, I suspect that you have generalized from a single failure to a very
mistaken conclusion.
>
> To do Agile, you have to do what Agile says. To adapt Agile, you have to adapt
using Agile principles. Your organization has never done either. Your
organization has not tried Agile. You have standing to say that it's hard, but
we knew that.
>
> Ford didn't try Agile. Not much of general value can be drawn from that:
certainly not your conclusion.
>
> Regards,
>
> Ron
>
> On Feb 11, 2011, at 6:41 AM, "MarvinToll.com" <MarvinToll@...> wrote:
>
> > @Ron - Having thought about this over-night... I finally feel free to
articulate what my experience working within Successful Large Enterprises has
caused me to conclude:
> >
> > "The notion of Agile as embodied in the Agile Manifesto (including the 12
principles) is simply not scalable for a large distributed enterprise."
> >
> > Even if the Agile Manifesto (including the 12 principles) is not a scalable
notion the document and what it represents is still highly valued.
> >
> > http://10yearsagile.org
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------------
> >
> > To Post a message, send it to:   extremeprogramming@...
> >
> > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: extremeprogramming-unsubscribe@...
> >
> > ad-free courtesy of objectmentor.comYahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
>

Agile 2011 – Agile for Embedded Systems Development stage
http://agile2011.agilealliance.org/
August 7-13, 2011, Salt Lake City, USA

The goal for this stage is to provide a forum for practitioners to
exchange their many lessons learned and a place for those new to Agile,
but not embedded, to see how to apply Agile to the challenges of
embedded systems development. Because embedded systems always involve
more than software, a further goal is to explore:

      * Agility for product development involving hardware, software,
           mechanics, …
      * Making the transition from lean manufacturing to lean development

Questions this stage will attempt to answer:

      * How will incremental planning and delivery help when there is no
           incremental delivery possible?
      * How do I turn product requirements into stories?
      * How do we deal with regulatory issues? What will my auditors say?
      * What is continuous integration in an embedded product development
           effort?
      * How do we use TDD and automated acceptance testing without a lab
           full of specialized equipment?
      * Our engineers are specialists, how can we deliver features and
           show progress when the platform is not ready?
      * Can I use agile on a one engineer product?
      * Our product has a lot of third party off-the-shelf software, how
           can agile help?
      * What does Lean Product Development have to do with Lean Mfg?
      * How can we make progress on the software when the hardware won’t
           be ready for months?
      * How do we get meaningful customer feedback before it is too late?


If your Agile Embedded proposal is accepted and you're new to
presenting at conferences, we will work with you to help you make your
session the best it can be.

Don't wait! February 14 is the deadline for submissions. You do not
need to have a presentation written by that date; you only need to
describe your concept to us in the online submissions system.

Here is what we are looking for:

Describe the learning outcomes you want attendees to take away.
Explain how your session actions support that - such as audience
exercises, a demo you give, breakouts for discussion, etc.
Tell us how your experience or other qualifications make you well
suited to present this topic.

As long as you put your submission in by the deadline, you'll be
able to get feedback from us, and you'll be able to make revisions to
your idea for several more weeks.

All submissions will be strongly considered, since we are trying to
pull from all of our experiences and expertise that has been gleaned
from our adventures into making Agile jive with embedded product
development, and the unique challenges we have all faced. A few gaps we
would like fill in our content is in the areas of mobile development
and applying Agile to achieve regulatory compliance endeavors.


Important dates:

- Last day to submit proposal: February 14
- Final notification of acceptance: April 18
- Final program published to the website: May 2
- Presentations: week of August 7

Submission Process:

Initial proposals will be reviewed by at least 3 members of the Agile
Embedded review committee. Proposals will be reviewed as they are
received. On the submissions website you will receive comments from the
general public - it's your choice whether to act on them. You will also
receive comments from our reviewers, in a section labeled "Review".
Reviewers may ask for additional information or for specific revisions,
and you're expected to respond - you can make replies, and can update
your submission.


Organization:

Agile Embedded stage Co-producers:
James Grenning, Renaissance Software
Nancy Van Schooenderwoert, Lean-Agile Partners, Inc.

Review Committee:
Brett Anno
Nick Barendt, BitBacker, Inc.
Doug Bradbury, 8th Light, Inc.
George Dinwiddie, iDIA Computing, LLC
Stephen McDonald, Bose Inc.
Ron Morsicato, Agile Rules
Timo Punkka, Schneider Electric
Greg Williams, Embedded Craftsman


--
............................................
Nancy Van Schooenderwoert, Lean-Agile Partners Inc.

781 301 1822 US mobile
nancyv@...

http://www.leanagilepartners.com

Specialties: Agile coaching for Embedded Systems, for Data Migrations,
and for leadership of Lean-Agile change organization wide
............................................

http://search.twitter.com/search?q=10yrsagile - Doesn't seem like there is much
skiing going on in SnowBird.

ronjeffriesacm@... wrote:
>
> I don't know of any offhand.
>
> On Feb 11, 2011, at 9:37 PM, "MarvinToll.com" <MarvinToll@...> wrote:
>
> > Can anyone name one Fortune-25 company that has embraced the 'Agile
Manifesto v. 2001' (4 values and 12 principles) as an effective model for
enterprise-wide globally distributed application development guidance (aka
'working software') in the past ten years with a successful outcome that
resembles the model?
> >
> > If yes, is there a hands-on practitioner contact with which I can speak?
> >

I like the idea of a two minute standup meeting.

But someone I know is been afflicted by stand up meetings gone Hog Wild.

Not two minutes, but going onwards and upwards of 20 minutes of STAND UP!!

However she feels as a junior member of the team she cannot rein them in.

I guess I have never been quite so polite and reticent....

Anyhoo, any suggestions on how a nice, sweet, polite, junior lady in the
team may
KICK SOME SENSE INTO THESE DIMWITS!

Nicely, sweetly, politely and diplomatically of course.

(Subtle hints like sitting down and carrying on working seems not to be
making dents in their egos.)

--
John Carter                             Phone : (64)(3) 358 6639
Tait Electronics                        Fax   : (64)(3) 359 4632
PO Box 1645 Christchurch                Email : john.carter@...
New Zealand

=======================================================================
This email, including any attachments, is only for the intended
addressee.  It is subject to copyright, is confidential and may be
the subject of legal or other privilege, none of which is waived or
lost by reason of this transmission.
If the receiver is not the intended addressee, please accept our
apologies, notify us by return, delete all copies and perform no
other act on the email.
Unfortunately, we cannot warrant that the email has not been
altered or corrupted during transmission.
=======================================================================


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Yes, fall on the floor after 15 minutes!

On Thu, Feb 17, 2011 at 1:18 PM, John Carter <john.carter@...> wrote:

>
>
> I like the idea of a two minute standup meeting.
>
> But someone I know is been afflicted by stand up meetings gone Hog Wild.
>
> Not two minutes, but going onwards and upwards of 20 minutes of STAND UP!!
>
> However she feels as a junior member of the team she cannot rein them in.
>
> I guess I have never been quite so polite and reticent....
>
> Anyhoo, any suggestions on how a nice, sweet, polite, junior lady in the
> team may
> KICK SOME SENSE INTO THESE DIMWITS!
>
> Nicely, sweetly, politely and diplomatically of course.
>
> (Subtle hints like sitting down and carrying on working seems not to be
> making dents in their egos.)
>
> --
> John Carter Phone : (64)(3) 358 6639
> Tait Electronics Fax : (64)(3) 359 4632
> PO Box 1645 Christchurch Email : john.carter@...
> New Zealand
>
> =======================================================================
> This email, including any attachments, is only for the intended
> addressee. It is subject to copyright, is confidential and may be
> the subject of legal or other privilege, none of which is waived or
> lost by reason of this transmission.
> If the receiver is not the intended addressee, please accept our
> apologies, notify us by return, delete all copies and perform no
> other act on the email.
> Unfortunately, we cannot warrant that the email has not been
> altered or corrupted during transmission.
> =======================================================================
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

You need to diagnose and reign in. Just "long" doesn't tell us anything.
Some blanket suggestions:

1) Ultimate tool for improvement: bring it up in retrospective.
2) Don't invite managers (cuts down on CYA)
3) Aggresively use parking lot, break into follow-on immediately after.
4) The Hand: if you are done hearing about a topic, raise your hand. When I see
four hands up, I shut up.


Tim Ottinger
http://agileinaflash.blogspot.com/
http://agileotter.blogspot.com/



----- Original Message ----
> From: John Carter <john.carter@...>
> To: extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Thu, February 17, 2011 2:18:09 PM
> Subject: [XP] Stand ups gone wild - how can a junior (but sensible) member of
>the team rein them in.
>
> I like the idea of a two minute standup meeting.
>
> But someone I know is  been afflicted by stand up meetings gone Hog Wild.
>
> Not two minutes, but  going onwards and upwards of 20 minutes of STAND UP!!
>
> However she feels  as a junior member of the team she cannot rein them in.
>
> I guess I have  never been quite so polite and reticent....
>
> Anyhoo, any suggestions on  how a nice, sweet, polite, junior lady in the
> team may
> KICK SOME SENSE  INTO THESE DIMWITS!
>
> Nicely, sweetly, politely and diplomatically of  course.
>
> (Subtle hints like sitting down and carrying on working seems not  to be
> making dents in their egos.)
>
> --
> John Carter                               Phone : (64)(3) 358 6639
> Tait Electronics                         Fax   : (64)(3) 359  4632
> PO Box 1645 Christchurch                 Email : john.carter@...
> New  Zealand
>
> =======================================================================
> This  email, including any attachments, is only for the intended
> addressee.   It is subject to copyright, is confidential and may be
> the subject of legal  or other privilege, none of which is waived or
> lost by reason of this  transmission.
> If the receiver is not the intended addressee, please accept  our
> apologies, notify us by return, delete all copies and perform no
> other  act on the email.
> Unfortunately, we cannot warrant that the email has not  been
> altered or corrupted during  transmission.
> =======================================================================
>
>
> [Non-text  portions of this message have been  removed]
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> To Post a  message, send it to:  extremeprogramming@eGroups.com
>
> To  Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:
>extremeprogramming-unsubscribe@eGroups.com
>
> ad-free  courtesy of objectmentor.comYahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>

As attested by your email, sometimes (many times) hints don't work.  What I
would suggest is that sometimes leadership requires confrontation (without being
confrontational).
1.  The length of speeches should be brought up as a discussion point.
2. If that doesn't work, then somebody should be appointed to look at the clock
and say "your time is up".  If this works in the American Congress, it might
work in other places as well.

On the other hand, it should be remembered what the purpose of the stand-up is. 
There should be other times available for other kinds of conversations too.

Victor

----------------------------------------------

Feb 17, 2011 03:18:29 PM, extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com wrote:

===========================================

I like the idea of a two minute standup meeting.

But someone I know is been afflicted by stand up meetings gone Hog Wild.

Not two minutes, but going onwards and upwards of 20 minutes of STAND UP!!

However she feels as a junior member of the team she cannot rein them in.

I guess I have never been quite so polite and reticent....

Anyhoo, any suggestions on how a nice, sweet, polite, junior lady in the
team may
KICK SOME SENSE INTO THESE DIMWITS!

Nicely, sweetly, politely and diplomatically of course.

(Subtle hints like sitting down and carrying on working seems not to be
making dents in their egos.)

--
John Carter                             Phone : (64)(3) 358 6639
Tait Electronics                        Fax   : (64)(3) 359 4632
PO Box 1645 Christchurch                Email : john.carter@...
New Zealand

=======================================================================
This email, including any attachments, is only for the intended
addressee.  It is subject to copyright, is confidential and may be
the subject of legal or other privilege, none of which is waived or
lost by reason of this transmission.
If the receiver is not the intended addressee, please accept our
apologies, notify us by return, delete all copies and perform no
other act on the email.
Unfortunately, we cannot warrant that the email has not been
altered or corrupted during transmission.
=======================================================================


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



------------------------------------

To Post a message, send it to:   extremeprogramming@eGroups.com

To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:
extremeprogramming-unsubscribe@eGroups.com

ad-free courtesy of objectmentor.comYahoo! Groups Links

  To visit your group on the web, go to:
     http://groups.yahoo.com/group/extremeprogramming/

  Your email settings:
     Individual Email | Traditional

  To change settings online go to:
     http://groups.yahoo.com/group/extremeprogramming/join
     (Yahoo! ID required)

  To change settings via email:
     extremeprogramming-digest@yahoogroups.com
     extremeprogramming-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com

  To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
     extremeprogramming-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

  Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
     http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

It sounds like the stand up meeting ground rules should be discussed.

Scrum's formula for the standup...
	 What I did yesterday
	 What I plan to do today
	 What is in my way

Soliciting help or offering it happens during the standup..
- "Oh, I was looking at that last week, let's talk after the meeting"
- "Mary, can you help me with the test scenario (after the meeting implied)"
- "Bill and Susan, we need to discuss the design implications. Can you hang for
a few minutes after the standup"

Anyone interested in the deferred topics can stay.  Others can get back to
things they are interested and involved in.

In discussing the ground rules, make sure everyone knows it is their job to keep
the standup on track. Anyone can suggest that a discussion be held until after
the standup.

James

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------\
------------
James Grenning 			 TDD for Embedded C is in Beta
www.renaissancesoftware.net 	 http://pragprog.com/titles/jgade/
www.renaissancesoftware.net/blog
www.twitter.com/jwgrenning

On Feb 17, 2011, at 2:56 PM, Victor Goldberg wrote:

> As attested by your email, sometimes (many times) hints don't work. What I
would suggest is that sometimes leadership requires confrontation (without being
confrontational).
> 1. The length of speeches should be brought up as a discussion point.
> 2. If that doesn't work, then somebody should be appointed to look at the
clock and say "your time is up". If this works in the American Congress, it
might work in other places as well.
>
> On the other hand, it should be remembered what the purpose of the stand-up
is. There should be other times available for other kinds of conversations too.
>
> Victor
>
> ----------------------------------------------
>
> Feb 17, 2011 03:18:29 PM, extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com wrote:
>
> ===========================================
>
> I like the idea of a two minute standup meeting.
>
> But someone I know is been afflicted by stand up meetings gone Hog Wild.
>
> Not two minutes, but going onwards and upwards of 20 minutes of STAND UP!!
>
> However she feels as a junior member of the team she cannot rein them in.
>
> I guess I have never been quite so polite and reticent....
>
> Anyhoo, any suggestions on how a nice, sweet, polite, junior lady in the
> team may
> KICK SOME SENSE INTO THESE DIMWITS!
>
> Nicely, sweetly, politely and diplomatically of course.
>
> (Subtle hints like sitting down and carrying on working seems not to be
> making dents in their egos.)
>
> --
> John Carter Phone : (64)(3) 358 6639
> Tait Electronics Fax : (64)(3) 359 4632
> PO Box 1645 Christchurch Email : john.carter@...
> New Zealand
>
> =======================================================================
> This email, including any attachments, is only for the intended
> addressee. It is subject to copyright, is confidential and may be
> the subject of legal or other privilege, none of which is waived or
> lost by reason of this transmission.
> If the receiver is not the intended addressee, please accept our
> apologies, notify us by return, delete all copies and perform no
> other act on the email.
> Unfortunately, we cannot warrant that the email has not been
> altered or corrupted during transmission.
> =======================================================================
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> To Post a message, send it to: extremeprogramming@eGroups.com
>
> To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:
extremeprogramming-unsubscribe@eGroups.com
>
> ad-free courtesy of objectmentor.comYahoo! Groups Links
>
> To visit your group on the web, go to:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/extremeprogramming/
>
> Your email settings:
> Individual Email | Traditional
>
> To change settings online go to:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/extremeprogramming/join
> (Yahoo! ID required)
>
> To change settings via email:
> extremeprogramming-digest@yahoogroups.com
> extremeprogramming-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> extremeprogramming-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Where is the scrum master?

r

On Feb 17, 2011, at 4:09 PM, "james@..."
<james@...> wrote:

> It sounds like the stand up meeting ground rules should be discussed.
>
> Scrum's formula for the standup...
>    What I did yesterday
>    What I plan to do today
>    What is in my way
>
> Soliciting help or offering it happens during the standup..
> - "Oh, I was looking at that last week, let's talk after the meeting"
> - "Mary, can you help me with the test scenario (after the meeting implied)"
> - "Bill and Susan, we need to discuss the design implications. Can you hang
for a few minutes after the standup"
>
> Anyone interested in the deferred topics can stay.  Others can get back to
things they are interested and involved in.
>
> In discussing the ground rules, make sure everyone knows it is their job to
keep the standup on track. Anyone can suggest that a discussion be held until
after the standup.
>
> James
>
>
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------\
------------
> James Grenning                    TDD for Embedded C is in Beta
> www.renaissancesoftware.net            http://pragprog.com/titles/jgade/
> www.renaissancesoftware.net/blog
> www.twitter.com/jwgrenning
>
> On Feb 17, 2011, at 2:56 PM, Victor Goldberg wrote:
>
>> As attested by your email, sometimes (many times) hints don't work. What I
would suggest is that sometimes leadership requires confrontation (without being
confrontational).
>> 1. The length of speeches should be brought up as a discussion point.
>> 2. If that doesn't work, then somebody should be appointed to look at the
clock and say "your time is up". If this works in the American Congress, it
might work in other places as well.
>>
>> On the other hand, it should be remembered what the purpose of the stand-up
is. There should be other times available for other kinds of conversations too.
>>
>> Victor
>>
>> ----------------------------------------------
>>
>> Feb 17, 2011 03:18:29 PM, extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com wrote:
>>
>> ===========================================
>>
>> I like the idea of a two minute standup meeting.
>>
>> But someone I know is been afflicted by stand up meetings gone Hog Wild.
>>
>> Not two minutes, but going onwards and upwards of 20 minutes of STAND UP!!
>>
>> However she feels as a junior member of the team she cannot rein them in.
>>
>> I guess I have never been quite so polite and reticent....
>>
>> Anyhoo, any suggestions on how a nice, sweet, polite, junior lady in the
>> team may
>> KICK SOME SENSE INTO THESE DIMWITS!
>>
>> Nicely, sweetly, politely and diplomatically of course.
>>
>> (Subtle hints like sitting down and carrying on working seems not to be
>> making dents in their egos.)
>>
>> --
>> John Carter Phone : (64)(3) 358 6639
>> Tait Electronics Fax : (64)(3) 359 4632
>> PO Box 1645 Christchurch Email : john.carter@...
>> New Zealand
>>
>> =======================================================================
>> This email, including any attachments, is only for the intended
>> addressee. It is subject to copyright, is confidential and may be
>> the subject of legal or other privilege, none of which is waived or
>> lost by reason of this transmission.
>> If the receiver is not the intended addressee, please accept our
>> apologies, notify us by return, delete all copies and perform no
>> other act on the email.
>> Unfortunately, we cannot warrant that the email has not been
>> altered or corrupted during transmission.
>> =======================================================================
>>
>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>>
>> ------------------------------------
>>
>> To Post a message, send it to: extremeprogramming@eGroups.com
>>
>> To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:
extremeprogramming-unsubscribe@eGroups.com
>>
>> ad-free courtesy of objectmentor.comYahoo! Groups Links
>>
>> To visit your group on the web, go to:
>> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/extremeprogramming/
>>
>> Your email settings:
>> Individual Email | Traditional
>>
>> To change settings online go to:
>> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/extremeprogramming/join
>> (Yahoo! ID required)
>>
>> To change settings via email:
>> extremeprogramming-digest@yahoogroups.com
>> extremeprogramming-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com
>>
>> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
>> extremeprogramming-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>>
>> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
>> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>>
>>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> To Post a message, send it to:   extremeprogramming@eGroups.com
>
> To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:
extremeprogramming-unsubscribe@eGroups.com
>
> ad-free courtesy of objectmentor.comYahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>

I'd probably say something like: "Hmmm, I find it interesting that we aren't
actually doing standup meetings" with a big mischievous grin on my face, and
see whether anybody takes the bait :)

Cheers,
/Manuel

On Thu, Feb 17, 2011 at 12:18 PM, John Carter <john.carter@...>wrote:

>
>
> I like the idea of a two minute standup meeting.
>
> But someone I know is been afflicted by stand up meetings gone Hog Wild.
>
> Not two minutes, but going onwards and upwards of 20 minutes of STAND UP!!
>
> However she feels as a junior member of the team she cannot rein them in.
>
> I guess I have never been quite so polite and reticent....
>
> Anyhoo, any suggestions on how a nice, sweet, polite, junior lady in the
> team may
> KICK SOME SENSE INTO THESE DIMWITS!
>
> Nicely, sweetly, politely and diplomatically of course.
>
> (Subtle hints like sitting down and carrying on working seems not to be
> making dents in their egos.)
>
> --
> John Carter Phone : (64)(3) 358 6639
> Tait Electronics Fax : (64)(3) 359 4632
> PO Box 1645 Christchurch Email : john.carter@...
> New Zealand
>
> =======================================================================
> This email, including any attachments, is only for the intended
> addressee. It is subject to copyright, is confidential and may be
> the subject of legal or other privilege, none of which is waived or
> lost by reason of this transmission.
> If the receiver is not the intended addressee, please accept our
> apologies, notify us by return, delete all copies and perform no
> other act on the email.
> Unfortunately, we cannot warrant that the email has not been
> altered or corrupted during transmission.
> =======================================================================
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>



--
http://klimek.box4.net


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

On 02/17/2011 12:18 PM, John Carter wrote:
> But someone I know is been afflicted by stand up meetings gone Hog Wild.
>
> Not two minutes, but going onwards and upwards of 20 minutes of STAND UP!!
> [...]
> Anyhoo, any suggestions on how a nice, sweet, polite, junior lady in the
> team may
> KICK SOME SENSE INTO THESE DIMWITS!


In her shoes, I'd try to figure out what the problem is and model better
behaviors.

E.g., if the problem is extended discussions, I'd be very obvious in
saying, "Oh, I don't want to bore everybody; let's you and I talk about
that right after." And I'd do it every chance I got.

Or if the problem is a lack of urgency, I'd volunteer to start, and I'd
do it in the most peppy and obviously prepared fashion possible.

Or if they aren't really standing, and it's turned into a lean-or-sit
meeting, I'd take the name seriously and stand. Visibly.

It might also be worth having a quiet discussion with the boss, or
higher-status colleagues. Even the lowest on the totem pole can ask
questions. "So I was reading about stand-up meetings, and ours seem
kinda different than normal. Why is that?"

William



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I generally have team members take turns running the standup, where "running"
means saying "let's get started" at the appropriate time, reminding people who
skip one of the three items (it's usually the last) and moving things along when
necessary.

Charlie

On Thu, Feb 17, 2011 at 1:09 PM, james@...
<james@...> wrote:
> It sounds like the stand up meeting ground rules should be discussed.
>
> Scrum's formula for the standup...
>        What I did yesterday
>        What I plan to do today
>        What is in my way
>
> Soliciting help or offering it happens during the standup..
> - "Oh, I was looking at that last week, let's talk after the meeting"
> - "Mary, can you help me with the test scenario (after the meeting implied)"
> - "Bill and Susan, we need to discuss the design implications. Can you hang
for a few minutes after the standup"
>
> Anyone interested in the deferred topics can stay.  Others can get back to
things they are interested and involved in.
>
> In discussing the ground rules, make sure everyone knows it is their job to
keep the standup on track. Anyone can suggest that a discussion be held until
after the standup.
>
> James
>
>
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------\
------------
> James Grenning                                  TDD for Embedded C is in Beta
> www.renaissancesoftware.net                    
http://pragprog.com/titles/jgade/
> www.renaissancesoftware.net/blog
> www.twitter.com/jwgrenning
>
> On Feb 17, 2011, at 2:56 PM, Victor Goldberg wrote:
>
>> As attested by your email, sometimes (many times) hints don't work. What I
would suggest is that sometimes leadership requires confrontation (without being
confrontational).
>> 1. The length of speeches should be brought up as a discussion point.
>> 2. If that doesn't work, then somebody should be appointed to look at the
clock and say "your time is up". If this works in the American Congress, it
might work in other places as well.
>>
>> On the other hand, it should be remembered what the purpose of the stand-up
is. There should be other times available for other kinds of conversations too.
>>
>> Victor
>>
>> ----------------------------------------------
>>
>> Feb 17, 2011 03:18:29 PM, extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com wrote:
>>
>> ===========================================
>>
>> I like the idea of a two minute standup meeting.
>>
>> But someone I know is been afflicted by stand up meetings gone Hog Wild.
>>
>> Not two minutes, but going onwards and upwards of 20 minutes of STAND UP!!
>>
>> However she feels as a junior member of the team she cannot rein them in.
>>
>> I guess I have never been quite so polite and reticent....
>>
>> Anyhoo, any suggestions on how a nice, sweet, polite, junior lady in the
>> team may
>> KICK SOME SENSE INTO THESE DIMWITS!
>>
>> Nicely, sweetly, politely and diplomatically of course.
>>
>> (Subtle hints like sitting down and carrying on working seems not to be
>> making dents in their egos.)
>>
>> --
>> John Carter Phone : (64)(3) 358 6639
>> Tait Electronics Fax : (64)(3) 359 4632
>> PO Box 1645 Christchurch Email : john.carter@...
>> New Zealand
>>
>> =======================================================================
>> This email, including any attachments, is only for the intended
>> addressee. It is subject to copyright, is confidential and may be
>> the subject of legal or other privilege, none of which is waived or
>> lost by reason of this transmission.
>> If the receiver is not the intended addressee, please accept our
>> apologies, notify us by return, delete all copies and perform no
>> other act on the email.
>> Unfortunately, we cannot warrant that the email has not been
>> altered or corrupted during transmission.
>> =======================================================================
>>
>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>>
>> ------------------------------------
>>
>> To Post a message, send it to: extremeprogramming@eGroups.com
>>
>> To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:
extremeprogramming-unsubscribe@eGroups.com
>>
>> ad-free courtesy of objectmentor.comYahoo! Groups Links
>>
>> To visit your group on the web, go to:
>> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/extremeprogramming/
>>
>> Your email settings:
>> Individual Email | Traditional
>>
>> To change settings online go to:
>> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/extremeprogramming/join
>> (Yahoo! ID required)
>>
>> To change settings via email:
>> extremeprogramming-digest@yahoogroups.com
>> extremeprogramming-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com
>>
>> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
>> extremeprogramming-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>>
>> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
>> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>>
>>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> To Post a message, send it to:   extremeprogramming@eGroups.com
>
> To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:
extremeprogramming-unsubscribe@eGroups.com
>
> ad-free courtesy of objectmentor.comYahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>

I have followed a simple rule --

A person gets max 3 minutes to say the following 3 things. If not able to finish
in time, put 3 dollars in monthly party fund.
1. What the person did yesterday?
2. What he plans to do today?
3. Any stumbling blocks he faced yesterday or foresee today?

..and each person gets to be facilitator / time keeper of standup on daily
rotation basis. Senior/junior doesn't matter.

To me, it has worked most of the time. If something needs discussion, it gets it
place in parking lot.

¬ Navjot


   ----- Original Message -----
   From: John Carter
   To: extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com
   Sent: Thursday, February 17, 2011 8:18 PM
   Subject: [XP] Stand ups gone wild - how can a junior (but sensible) member of
the team rein them in.



   I like the idea of a two minute standup meeting.

   But someone I know is been afflicted by stand up meetings gone Hog Wild.

   Not two minutes, but going onwards and upwards of 20 minutes of STAND UP!!

   However she feels as a junior member of the team she cannot rein them in.

   I guess I have never been quite so polite and reticent....

   Anyhoo, any suggestions on how a nice, sweet, polite, junior lady in the
   team may
   KICK SOME SENSE INTO THESE DIMWITS!

   Nicely, sweetly, politely and diplomatically of course.

   (Subtle hints like sitting down and carrying on working seems not to be
   making dents in their egos.)

   --
   John Carter Phone : (64)(3) 358 6639
   Tait Electronics Fax : (64)(3) 359 4632
   PO Box 1645 Christchurch Email : john.carter@...
   New Zealand

   =======================================================================
   This email, including any attachments, is only for the intended
   addressee. It is subject to copyright, is confidential and may be
   the subject of legal or other privilege, none of which is waived or
   lost by reason of this transmission.
   If the receiver is not the intended addressee, please accept our
   apologies, notify us by return, delete all copies and perform no
   other act on the email.
   Unfortunately, we cannot warrant that the email has not been
   altered or corrupted during transmission.
   =======================================================================

   [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

There are a fair number of studies that suggest that fines undermine
workers' motivation. This is a poor way to encourage good behavior, and even
if it did work (Which it likely won't) it is overly manipulative.

A better approach might be to create a parking list and table discussions
that are outside the scope of the stand up. The key is to then address the
parking list items outside of the meeting. If you don't then they will keep
coming up day after day, as they should.

On Thu, Feb 17, 2011 at 2:55 PM, Navjot Singh <navsin@...> wrote:

>
>
> I have followed a simple rule --
>
> A person gets max 3 minutes to say the following 3 things. If not able to
> finish in time, put 3 dollars in monthly party fund.
> 1. What the person did yesterday?
> 2. What he plans to do today?
> 3. Any stumbling blocks he faced yesterday or foresee today?
>
> ..and each person gets to be facilitator / time keeper of standup on daily
> rotation basis. Senior/junior doesn't matter.
>
> To me, it has worked most of the time. If something needs discussion, it
> gets it place in parking lot.
>
> ¬ Navjot
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: John Carter
> To: extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Thursday, February 17, 2011 8:18 PM
> Subject: [XP] Stand ups gone wild - how can a junior (but sensible) member
> of the team rein them in.
>
> I like the idea of a two minute standup meeting.
>
> But someone I know is been afflicted by stand up meetings gone Hog Wild.
>
> Not two minutes, but going onwards and upwards of 20 minutes of STAND UP!!
>
> However she feels as a junior member of the team she cannot rein them in.
>
> I guess I have never been quite so polite and reticent....
>
> Anyhoo, any suggestions on how a nice, sweet, polite, junior lady in the
> team may
> KICK SOME SENSE INTO THESE DIMWITS!
>
> Nicely, sweetly, politely and diplomatically of course.
>
> (Subtle hints like sitting down and carrying on working seems not to be
> making dents in their egos.)
>
> --
> John Carter Phone : (64)(3) 358 6639
> Tait Electronics Fax : (64)(3) 359 4632
> PO Box 1645 Christchurch Email : john.carter@...
> New Zealand
>
> =======================================================================
> This email, including any attachments, is only for the intended
> addressee. It is subject to copyright, is confidential and may be
> the subject of legal or other privilege, none of which is waived or
> lost by reason of this transmission.
> If the receiver is not the intended addressee, please accept our
> apologies, notify us by return, delete all copies and perform no
> other act on the email.
> Unfortunately, we cannot warrant that the email has not been
> altered or corrupted during transmission.
> =======================================================================
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Il 18/02/2011 0.09, Adam Sroka ha scritto:
Hmmm... may be useful a meeting cost timer like that in Dilbert's store? :)
> There are a fair number of studies that suggest that fines undermine
> workers' motivation. This is a poor way to encourage good behavior, and even
> if it did work (Which it likely won't) it is overly manipulative.
>
> A better approach might be to create a parking list and table discussions
> that are outside the scope of the stand up. The key is to then address the
> parking list items outside of the meeting. If you don't then they will keep
> coming up day after day, as they should.
>
> On Thu, Feb 17, 2011 at 2:55 PM, Navjot Singh <navsin@...> wrote:
>
>
>>
>> I have followed a simple rule --
>>
>> A person gets max 3 minutes to say the following 3 things. If not able to
>> finish in time, put 3 dollars in monthly party fund.
>> 1. What the person did yesterday?
>> 2. What he plans to do today?
>> 3. Any stumbling blocks he faced yesterday or foresee today?
>>
>> ..and each person gets to be facilitator / time keeper of standup on daily
>> rotation basis. Senior/junior doesn't matter.
>>
>> To me, it has worked most of the time. If something needs discussion, it
>> gets it place in parking lot.
>>
>> ¬ Navjot
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: John Carter
>> To: extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com
>> Sent: Thursday, February 17, 2011 8:18 PM
>> Subject: [XP] Stand ups gone wild - how can a junior (but sensible) member
>> of the team rein them in.
>>
>> I like the idea of a two minute standup meeting.
>>
>> But someone I know is been afflicted by stand up meetings gone Hog Wild.
>>
>> Not two minutes, but going onwards and upwards of 20 minutes of STAND UP!!
>>
>> However she feels as a junior member of the team she cannot rein them in.
>>
>> I guess I have never been quite so polite and reticent....
>>
>> Anyhoo, any suggestions on how a nice, sweet, polite, junior lady in the
>> team may
>> KICK SOME SENSE INTO THESE DIMWITS!
>>
>> Nicely, sweetly, politely and diplomatically of course.
>>
>> (Subtle hints like sitting down and carrying on working seems not to be
>> making dents in their egos.)
>>
>> --
>> John Carter Phone : (64)(3) 358 6639
>> Tait Electronics Fax : (64)(3) 359 4632
>> PO Box 1645 Christchurch Email : john.carter@...
>> New Zealand
>>
>> =======================================================================
>> This email, including any attachments, is only for the intended
>> addressee. It is subject to copyright, is confidential and may be
>> the subject of legal or other privilege, none of which is waived or
>> lost by reason of this transmission.
>> If the receiver is not the intended addressee, please accept our
>> apologies, notify us by return, delete all copies and perform no
>> other act on the email.
>> Unfortunately, we cannot warrant that the email has not been
>> altered or corrupted during transmission.
>> =======================================================================
>>
>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>>
>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> To Post a message, send it to:   extremeprogramming@eGroups.com
>
> To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:
extremeprogramming-unsubscribe@eGroups.com
>
> ad-free courtesy of objectmentor.comYahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I've been in stand up meetings where one member uses the timer on his iPhone,
the duck "quack" sound seemed to work most effectively.

C. Keith Ray

Amplify Your Agility
Coaching | Training | Assessment | eLearning
http://industriallogic.com

On Feb 17, 2011, at 12:18 PM, John Carter <john.carter@...> wrote:

> I like the idea of a two minute standup meeting.
>
> But someone I know is been afflicted by stand up meetings gone Hog Wild.
>
> Not two minutes, but going onwards and upwards of 20 minutes of STAND UP!!
>
> However she feels as a junior member of the team she cannot rein them in.
>
> I guess I have never been quite so polite and reticent....
>
> Anyhoo, any suggestions on how a nice, sweet, polite, junior lady in the
> team may
> KICK SOME SENSE INTO THESE DIMWITS!
>
> Nicely, sweetly, politely and diplomatically of course.
>
> (Subtle hints like sitting down and carrying on working seems not to be
> making dents in their egos.)
>
> --
> John Carter                             Phone : (64)(3) 358 6639
> Tait Electronics                        Fax   : (64)(3) 359 4632
> PO Box 1645 Christchurch                Email : john.carter@...
> New Zealand
>
> =======================================================================
> This email, including any attachments, is only for the intended
> addressee.  It is subject to copyright, is confidential and may be
> the subject of legal or other privilege, none of which is waived or
> lost by reason of this transmission.
> If the receiver is not the intended addressee, please accept our
> apologies, notify us by return, delete all copies and perform no
> other act on the email.
> Unfortunately, we cannot warrant that the email has not been
> altered or corrupted during transmission.
> =======================================================================
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> To Post a message, send it to:   extremeprogramming@eGroups.com
>
> To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:
extremeprogramming-unsubscribe@eGroups.com
>
> ad-free courtesy of objectmentor.comYahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>

I think time limits are important, but only as a fallback. I find it most
useful to
address content. When somebody is taking too long it's usually because they
are not sticking to the purpose of the meeting.

Charlie

On Fri, Feb 18, 2011 at 10:11 PM, Keith Ray <keith.ray@...> wrote:

>
>
> I've been in stand up meetings where one member uses the timer on his
> iPhone, the duck "quack" sound seemed to work most effectively.
>
> C. Keith Ray
>
> Amplify Your Agility
> Coaching | Training | Assessment | eLearning
> http://industriallogic.com
>
> On Feb 17, 2011, at 12:18 PM, John Carter <john.carter@...> wrote:
>
> > I like the idea of a two minute standup meeting.
> >
> > But someone I know is been afflicted by stand up meetings gone Hog Wild.
> >
> > Not two minutes, but going onwards and upwards of 20 minutes of STAND
> UP!!
> >
> > However she feels as a junior member of the team she cannot rein them in.
> >
> > I guess I have never been quite so polite and reticent....
> >
> > Anyhoo, any suggestions on how a nice, sweet, polite, junior lady in the
> > team may
> > KICK SOME SENSE INTO THESE DIMWITS!
> >
> > Nicely, sweetly, politely and diplomatically of course.
> >
> > (Subtle hints like sitting down and carrying on working seems not to be
> > making dents in their egos.)
> >
> > --
> > John Carter Phone : (64)(3) 358 6639
> > Tait Electronics Fax : (64)(3) 359 4632
> > PO Box 1645 Christchurch Email : john.carter@...
> > New Zealand
> >
> > =======================================================================
> > This email, including any attachments, is only for the intended
> > addressee. It is subject to copyright, is confidential and may be
> > the subject of legal or other privilege, none of which is waived or
> > lost by reason of this transmission.
> > If the receiver is not the intended addressee, please accept our
> > apologies, notify us by return, delete all copies and perform no
> > other act on the email.
> > Unfortunately, we cannot warrant that the email has not been
> > altered or corrupted during transmission.
> > =======================================================================
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------------
> >
> > To Post a message, send it to: extremeprogramming@eGroups.com
> >
> > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:
> extremeprogramming-unsubscribe@eGroups.com
> >
> > ad-free courtesy of objectmentor.comYahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Yes. I agree.

Additionally, as a coach I find the side discussions in stand-ups
informative. Whatever the team feels they must bring up during the
meeting is usually something they aren't talking about when they
should. That is an opportunity to improve the communication outside
the stand-up (with some gentle encouragement.)

To me it is analogous to a "burning desire." People feel compelled to
bring certain things up even though they know they are off topic for
the stand-up. This is a good indication that these things should be
discussed during the course of the normal day, but they aren't being.

On Fri, Feb 18, 2011 at 10:20 PM, Charlie Poole <charliepoole@...> wrote:
> I think time limits are important, but only as a fallback. I find it most
> useful to
> address content. When somebody is taking too long it's usually because they
> are not sticking to the purpose of the meeting.
>
> Charlie
>
> On Fri, Feb 18, 2011 at 10:11 PM, Keith Ray <keith.ray@...> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> I've been in stand up meetings where one member uses the timer on his
>> iPhone, the duck "quack" sound seemed to work most effectively.
>>
>> C. Keith Ray
>>
>> Amplify Your Agility
>> Coaching | Training | Assessment | eLearning
>> http://industriallogic.com
>>
>> On Feb 17, 2011, at 12:18 PM, John Carter <john.carter@...> wrote:
>>
>> > I like the idea of a two minute standup meeting.
>> >
>> > But someone I know is been afflicted by stand up meetings gone Hog Wild.
>> >
>> > Not two minutes, but going onwards and upwards of 20 minutes of STAND
>> UP!!
>> >
>> > However she feels as a junior member of the team she cannot rein them in.
>> >
>> > I guess I have never been quite so polite and reticent....
>> >
>> > Anyhoo, any suggestions on how a nice, sweet, polite, junior lady in the
>> > team may
>> > KICK SOME SENSE INTO THESE DIMWITS!
>> >
>> > Nicely, sweetly, politely and diplomatically of course.
>> >
>> > (Subtle hints like sitting down and carrying on working seems not to be
>> > making dents in their egos.)
>> >
>> > --
>> > John Carter Phone : (64)(3) 358 6639
>> > Tait Electronics Fax : (64)(3) 359 4632
>> > PO Box 1645 Christchurch Email : john.carter@...
>> > New Zealand
>> >
>> > =======================================================================
>> > This email, including any attachments, is only for the intended
>> > addressee. It is subject to copyright, is confidential and may be
>> > the subject of legal or other privilege, none of which is waived or
>> > lost by reason of this transmission.
>> > If the receiver is not the intended addressee, please accept our
>> > apologies, notify us by return, delete all copies and perform no
>> > other act on the email.
>> > Unfortunately, we cannot warrant that the email has not been
>> > altered or corrupted during transmission.
>> > =======================================================================
>> >
>> >
>> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > ------------------------------------
>> >
>> > To Post a message, send it to: extremeprogramming@eGroups.com
>> >
>> > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:
>> extremeprogramming-unsubscribe@eGroups.com
>> >
>> > ad-free courtesy of objectmentor.comYahoo! Groups Links
>> >
>> >
>> >
>>
>>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> To Post a message, send it to:   extremeprogramming@eGroups.com
>
> To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:
extremeprogramming-unsubscribe@eGroups.com
>
> ad-free courtesy of objectmentor.comYahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>

Yes, I've found timers are better for calling attention to the problem
than for solving it.

One technique I've seen used to good advantage is that of going through
the cards on the wall rather than around the room of teammembers.  For
each story card, people pipe up about what they accomplished on it and
what they will accomplish on it, and what's blocking the story.  At the
end of the meeting, people mention the new things they'll be picking up.
   We called it "Talk to the Wall."

I'd love to take credit for this idea, but the truth is the team came up
with it.  It cut a standup that was sometimes exceeding 20 minutes
(there were a lot of analysts on the team) to around 5 minutes.

   - George

On 2/19/11 1:20 AM, Charlie Poole wrote:
> I think time limits are important, but only as a fallback. I find it most
> useful to
> address content. When somebody is taking too long it's usually because they
> are not sticking to the purpose of the meeting.
>
> Charlie
>
> On Fri, Feb 18, 2011 at 10:11 PM, Keith Ray<keith.ray@...>  wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> I've been in stand up meetings where one member uses the timer on his
>> iPhone, the duck "quack" sound seemed to work most effectively.
>>
>> C. Keith Ray

--
   ----------------------------------------------------------------------
    * George Dinwiddie *                      http://blog.gdinwiddie.com
    Software Development                    http://www.idiacomputing.com
    Consultant and Coach                    http://www.agilemaryland.org
   ----------------------------------------------------------------------

I worked with a Scrummaster who had what seemed like a compulsion to move
cards on the Kanban board. He would grab a story and start to move it to the
next stage, which would cause the people who were working on that to protest
that it wasn't moved yet "because..." I was never able to determine whether
he did this deliberately, but if he did it was genius, because it focused
everyone and got us through the stand-up quickly.

On Sat, Feb 19, 2011 at 8:17 AM, George Dinwiddie
<lists@...>wrote:

>
>
> Yes, I've found timers are better for calling attention to the problem
> than for solving it.
>
> One technique I've seen used to good advantage is that of going through
> the cards on the wall rather than around the room of teammembers. For
> each story card, people pipe up about what they accomplished on it and
> what they will accomplish on it, and what's blocking the story. At the
> end of the meeting, people mention the new things they'll be picking up.
> We called it "Talk to the Wall."
>
> I'd love to take credit for this idea, but the truth is the team came up
> with it. It cut a standup that was sometimes exceeding 20 minutes
> (there were a lot of analysts on the team) to around 5 minutes.
>
> - George
>
>
> On 2/19/11 1:20 AM, Charlie Poole wrote:
> > I think time limits are important, but only as a fallback. I find it most
> > useful to
> > address content. When somebody is taking too long it's usually because
> they
> > are not sticking to the purpose of the meeting.
> >
> > Charlie
> >
> > On Fri, Feb 18, 2011 at 10:11 PM, Keith Ray<keith.ray@...> wrote:
> >
> >>
> >>
> >> I've been in stand up meetings where one member uses the timer on his
> >> iPhone, the duck "quack" sound seemed to work most effectively.
> >>
> >> C. Keith Ray
>
> --
> ----------------------------------------------------------
> * George Dinwiddie * http://blog.gdinwiddie.com
> Software Development http://www.idiacomputing.com
> Consultant and Coach http://www.agilemaryland.org
> ----------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

WOW so many passive aggressive answers, some good ones too.

Have you tried just interrupting politely and reminding them of the agenda and
time line? do you have working agreements around the value of 'focus' and
'respect'? it's truly disrespectful to carry on a meeting longer than normal.

another passive aggressive answer:
if youre the team member. have a manager/scrum master reign them in. I see this
pretty often the scrum master says "yep this is the teams meeting, it's their
job to run it"

If it's going to crap, the SM or coach may need to come in and facilitate again
until people behave.




--- In extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com, Steven Gordon <sgordonphd@...> wrote:
>
> Yes, fall on the floor after 15 minutes!
>
> On Thu, Feb 17, 2011 at 1:18 PM, John Carter <john.carter@...> wrote:
>
> >
> >
> > I like the idea of a two minute standup meeting.
> >
> > But someone I know is been afflicted by stand up meetings gone Hog Wild.
> >
> > Not two minutes, but going onwards and upwards of 20 minutes of STAND UP!!
> >
> > However she feels as a junior member of the team she cannot rein them in.
> >
> > I guess I have never been quite so polite and reticent....
> >
> > Anyhoo, any suggestions on how a nice, sweet, polite, junior lady in the
> > team may
> > KICK SOME SENSE INTO THESE DIMWITS!
> >
> > Nicely, sweetly, politely and diplomatically of course.
> >
> > (Subtle hints like sitting down and carrying on working seems not to be
> > making dents in their egos.)
> >
> > --
> > John Carter Phone : (64)(3) 358 6639
> > Tait Electronics Fax : (64)(3) 359 4632
> > PO Box 1645 Christchurch Email : john.carter@...
> > New Zealand
> >
> > =======================================================================
> > This email, including any attachments, is only for the intended
> > addressee. It is subject to copyright, is confidential and may be
> > the subject of legal or other privilege, none of which is waived or
> > lost by reason of this transmission.
> > If the receiver is not the intended addressee, please accept our
> > apologies, notify us by return, delete all copies and perform no
> > other act on the email.
> > Unfortunately, we cannot warrant that the email has not been
> > altered or corrupted during transmission.
> > =======================================================================
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Hi Adam,

I never really thought about it before, but I believe you're right. When
something
like that comes up, I generally make a note to follow up on what's happening
outside the standup. OTOH, on some of my teams, I have had much more
problems with terseness than verbosity. I'm thinking of the guy who reports,
day after day, that he is still working on the same thing but never mentions
any help needed eventually gets prompted to say more.

Charlie

On Sat, Feb 19, 2011 at 8:08 AM, Adam Sroka <adam.sroka@...> wrote:

>
>
> Yes. I agree.
>
> Additionally, as a coach I find the side discussions in stand-ups
> informative. Whatever the team feels they must bring up during the
> meeting is usually something they aren't talking about when they
> should. That is an opportunity to improve the communication outside
> the stand-up (with some gentle encouragement.)
>
> To me it is analogous to a "burning desire." People feel compelled to
> bring certain things up even though they know they are off topic for
> the stand-up. This is a good indication that these things should be
> discussed during the course of the normal day, but they aren't being.
>
>
> On Fri, Feb 18, 2011 at 10:20 PM, Charlie Poole <charliepoole@...>
> wrote:
> > I think time limits are important, but only as a fallback. I find it most
> > useful to
> > address content. When somebody is taking too long it's usually because
> they
> > are not sticking to the purpose of the meeting.
> >
> > Charlie
> >
> > On Fri, Feb 18, 2011 at 10:11 PM, Keith Ray <keith.ray@...> wrote:
> >
> >>
> >>
> >> I've been in stand up meetings where one member uses the timer on his
> >> iPhone, the duck "quack" sound seemed to work most effectively.
> >>
> >> C. Keith Ray
> >>
> >> Amplify Your Agility
> >> Coaching | Training | Assessment | eLearning
> >> http://industriallogic.com
> >>
> >> On Feb 17, 2011, at 12:18 PM, John Carter <john.carter@...>
> wrote:
> >>
> >> > I like the idea of a two minute standup meeting.
> >> >
> >> > But someone I know is been afflicted by stand up meetings gone Hog
> Wild.
> >> >
> >> > Not two minutes, but going onwards and upwards of 20 minutes of STAND
> >> UP!!
> >> >
> >> > However she feels as a junior member of the team she cannot rein them
> in.
> >> >
> >> > I guess I have never been quite so polite and reticent....
> >> >
> >> > Anyhoo, any suggestions on how a nice, sweet, polite, junior lady in
> the
> >> > team may
> >> > KICK SOME SENSE INTO THESE DIMWITS!
> >> >
> >> > Nicely, sweetly, politely and diplomatically of course.
> >> >
> >> > (Subtle hints like sitting down and carrying on working seems not to
> be
> >> > making dents in their egos.)
> >> >
> >> > --
> >> > John Carter Phone : (64)(3) 358 6639
> >> > Tait Electronics Fax : (64)(3) 359 4632
> >> > PO Box 1645 Christchurch Email : john.carter@...
> >> > New Zealand
> >> >
> >> >
> =======================================================================
> >> > This email, including any attachments, is only for the intended
> >> > addressee. It is subject to copyright, is confidential and may be
> >> > the subject of legal or other privilege, none of which is waived or
> >> > lost by reason of this transmission.
> >> > If the receiver is not the intended addressee, please accept our
> >> > apologies, notify us by return, delete all copies and perform no
> >> > other act on the email.
> >> > Unfortunately, we cannot warrant that the email has not been
> >> > altered or corrupted during transmission.
> >> >
> =======================================================================
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > ------------------------------------
> >> >
> >> > To Post a message, send it to: extremeprogramming@eGroups.com
> >> >
> >> > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:
> >> extremeprogramming-unsubscribe@eGroups.com
> >> >
> >> > ad-free courtesy of objectmentor.comYahoo! Groups Links
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------------
> >
> > To Post a message, send it to:   extremeprogramming@eGroups.com
> >
> > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:
> extremeprogramming-unsubscribe@eGroups.com
> >
> > ad-free courtesy of objectmentor.comYahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

This is the XP list, so we don't have to stick to Scrum rules.
Instead of doing a status report, ask (during a retrospective) or even
during the next stand-up whether the format could be changed. All we need to
answer is one question from each person:
  * what decisions do we need to discuss as a group?
Or instead try:
  * what's left to finish this iteration / the story card I'm working on?

Something that's really important, in my opinion, about stand-ups, is
keeping them fresh, new, energetic. That means someone has to shake up the
format every once in a while. For examples, see:

http://dhondtsayitsagile.blogspot.com/2011/02/hot-potato-daily-scrums.html
http://dhondtsayitsagile.blogspot.com/2010/07/pull-stand-up-sessions.html
http://dhondtsayitsagile.blogspot.com/2010/01/no-more-pomodoros-synch-point.html


--
D. André Dhondt
mobile: 215-805-0819
skype: d.andre.dhondt
twitter: adhondt   http://dhondtsayitsagile.blogspot.com/

Support low-cost conferences -- http://AgileTour.org/
If you're in the area, join Agile Philly http://www.AgilePhilly.com


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hi Andre,

Nice ideas. I particularly like the point synchro.

That said, I would probably still keep doing the traditional (not just in
Scrum)
Yesterday-Today-Obstacles standup most mornings, because I've never
seen it grow stale when done energetically, quickly and in person.

Charlie

On Sat, Feb 19, 2011 at 7:00 PM, D.André Dhondt <d.andre.dhondt@...>wrote:

>
>
> This is the XP list, so we don't have to stick to Scrum rules.
> Instead of doing a status report, ask (during a retrospective) or even
> during the next stand-up whether the format could be changed. All we need
> to
> answer is one question from each person:
> * what decisions do we need to discuss as a group?
> Or instead try:
> * what's left to finish this iteration / the story card I'm working on?
>
> Something that's really important, in my opinion, about stand-ups, is
> keeping them fresh, new, energetic. That means someone has to shake up the
> format every once in a while. For examples, see:
>
> http://dhondtsayitsagile.blogspot.com/2011/02/hot-potato-daily-scrums.html
> http://dhondtsayitsagile.blogspot.com/2010/07/pull-stand-up-sessions.html
>
>
http://dhondtsayitsagile.blogspot.com/2010/01/no-more-pomodoros-synch-point.html
>
> --
> D. André Dhondt
> mobile: 215-805-0819
> skype: d.andre.dhondt
> twitter: adhondt http://dhondtsayitsagile.blogspot.com/
>
> Support low-cost conferences -- http://AgileTour.org/
> If you're in the area, join Agile Philly http://www.AgilePhilly.com
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Perhaps the following ten minute radio clip inspires approaches for
communicating the 'Agile' message outside of IT.

http://toagileandbeyond.org/InternetAdvisor.mp3

On Feb 11, 2011, at 6:37 PM, MarvinToll.com wrote:

> Can anyone name one Fortune-25 company that has embraced

Whether or not one can be named has no bearing on whether or not such
organizations exist.

If they do, they might see a methodology or a philosophy as core to their
competitiveness, and not be something they want to tell all of their competitors
about.

That applies to anything a successful company does, not just how they develop
software.

I think quite a few lesser organizations simply refuse to understand that when
insisting on “evidence that this works for someone else.”

  -- Chris