... Repetition. And I repeat myself a lot. Doesn't help with people understanding but my teeth last longer. Ron Jeffries www.XProgramming.com Steering is more...
59607
Booch, Grady
g_booch
Sep 1, 2002 5:07 am
... [egb> ] wailing helps [egb> ] sometimes, I simply run screaming in the night.......
59606
dossy
Sep 1, 2002 4:58 am
EXTREME PROGRAMMING WEEKLY http://groups.yahoo.com/group/extremeprogramming extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com To unsubscribe:...
59605
aacockburn
Sep 1, 2002 4:58 am
... Well, I gnash my teeth a lot. But so far, that hasn't helped a whole lot. Mostly, it seems my teeth are getting shorter, and the people keeping acting...
59604
Booch, Grady
g_booch
Sep 1, 2002 4:55 am
... [egb> ] Oh, it gets more interesting.... [egb> ] Remember, our first product was hardware (the R1000) running a full software development environment. We...
59603
dossy
Sep 1, 2002 4:50 am
... And, as they say, "the rest is history." The idea I was exploring was that they had used experience in perhaps building some tools to decide what tools...
59602
Booch, Grady
g_booch
Sep 1, 2002 4:47 am
... [egb> ] I just fell out of my chair; Ron agreed with something I said! :-) [egb> ] I can now die a happy man. I made BillG laugh, and now this...life is...
59601
dossy
Sep 1, 2002 4:46 am
... Cool! Lets wait and see if the OP posts a test. -- Dossy -- Dossy Shiobara mail: dossy@... Panoptic Computer Network...
59600
Booch, Grady
g_booch
Sep 1, 2002 4:45 am
... [egb> ] oh my; you are in effect saying that all that preceded XP is bad and evil; all that follows XP is well and good. I do embrace XP - but at the same...
59599
Ron Jeffries
RonaldEJeffries
Sep 1, 2002 4:39 am
... Oh, good. That means we're both silly. ... Definitely. Where we might differ would be on the proportion of time where "build it" might be appropriate. But...
59598
Ron Jeffries
RonaldEJeffries
Sep 1, 2002 4:36 am
... That was not my point, though I believe it was Dossy's. My point was, and is, that in the absence of a tool, you still need tests. Therefore, in the...
59597
Booch, Grady
g_booch
Sep 1, 2002 4:35 am
... [egb> ] In the earliest of days, Rational began with a glimmer in the eye of Mike Devlin and Paul Levy, that turned itself into a written business plan ...
59596
Booch, Grady
g_booch
Sep 1, 2002 4:31 am
... [egb> ] I think we are in violent agreement. [egb> ] I never said one should hold off on building tests until you have a tool in place; I did say that one...
59595
Steve Willer
tarrant3000
Sep 1, 2002 4:21 am
... I understand the concept, of course. I even understand my own needs and have a tool that sorta-kinda meets those needs. Your point and Ron's was that the...
59594
Ron Jeffries
RonaldEJeffries
Sep 1, 2002 4:21 am
... I would agree with Grady that if you go too far in building your own tools, you risk spending too much time on tools and not enough on the real job. I also...
59593
Ron Jeffries
RonaldEJeffries
Sep 1, 2002 4:11 am
... Did you read the article on how Chet and I did it? It's very simple ... that was the point of it actually ... and it got us automated acceptance tests in...
59592
Ron Jeffries
RonaldEJeffries
Sep 1, 2002 4:10 am
... The most common mistake that XP teams make is not to begin at the very beginning with automated Customer Acceptance Tests. There are many reasons why they...
59591
Ron Jeffries
RonaldEJeffries
Sep 1, 2002 4:09 am
... I don't. I said, "If you don't have a tool, write the tests." Tool good. Tests necessary. Ron Jeffries www.XProgramming.com You do ill if you praise, but...
59590
dossy
Sep 1, 2002 4:07 am
... You can't seriously be suggesting that you've never tested soemthing manually. Of course you have. So, you understand the concept behind testing. Now,...
59589
Bryan Dollery
bryan_dollery
Sep 1, 2002 4:07 am
Hi Grady, ... We have to - everything that existed before XP contributed to the crisis, and the high failure rates (variously quoted as between 50% and 70%). ...
59588
dossy
Sep 1, 2002 4:00 am
... I really don't want to have this conversation now, but let me just try and reiterate my point in hopes that it comes across this time: Perhaps in creating...
59587
Bryan Dollery
bryan_dollery
Sep 1, 2002 3:59 am
Hi, ... <snip/> So, what can we (and Rational) do to fix this? I think that, partially because of its size, and partially because of its popularity, RUP is...
59586
dossy
Sep 1, 2002 3:58 am
... Start at the point in time before Rational had a single software product, even under development. What do you consider the fundamental turning point...
59585
Ron Jeffries
RonaldEJeffries
Sep 1, 2002 3:57 am
... Do read the article. Then sell me a better tool. Ron Jeffries www.XProgramming.com You don't need to see my identification. These aren't the ideas you're...
59584
Steve Willer
tarrant3000
Sep 1, 2002 3:56 am
... Neat. This thread is like 99% philosophy and 1% concrete examples, tests or requirements. Does that mean a 1% signal/noise ratio? ;-) Perhaps the guy who...
59583
Ron Jeffries
RonaldEJeffries
Sep 1, 2002 3:53 am
... That would not be the way to bet, Grady. I can only conclude that I've not made myself clear to you. I'll continue to try. ... Not at all. If upon...
59582
Booch, Grady
g_booch
Sep 1, 2002 3:51 am
... tool. ... [egb> ] you have to make an intelligent extrapolation. If you wait to tool until you have all the tests, then you end up with an "all tests up...
59581
Robert Martin UncleBob
rmartinoma
Sep 1, 2002 3:47 am
... Although Ron was being a bit obtuse (Imagine that!) his point dovetails with yours. How do you "consider the tooling issue"? First you study the problem,...
59580
Booch, Grady
g_booch
Sep 1, 2002 3:43 am
... [egb> ] I'd probably learning something new about our project by writing my own IDE; but it would be pretty distracting for me to do so, and secondary to...
59579
Booch, Grady
g_booch
Sep 1, 2002 3:38 am
... [egb> ] The full answer is a long one; I honestly don't know where to begin... ... [egb> ] Well, of course you do. [egb> ] Do you make conscious...
