Hey V, there's a way you can get around not being able to tell if people are
angry or arguing with you. Knowing you have trouble with that, when people seem
to be arguing or angry, consciously think about how it sometimes seems to you
that people are arguing when they aren't. Remember that time with your friend
and his wife, and assume that you're perceiving it wrong.

Rob


--- In faceblind@yahoogroups.com, "vcreek2002" <vcreek2002@...> wrote:
>
> Wow,  Sometimes it just hits me over the head how very difficult any
communication is.
>
> My husband, as you can tell, is from a rather different background than I am.
>
> After 35 years, I am frequently unable to discern if some people are arguing
or not of if they are angry or not.
>
> Recently, I asked!  I just asked his best friend and his wife if they were
angry and having an argument.  I explained that after all of these years, I just
do not know!  They both laughed and said, "No, we are not angry and this isn't
an argument!"
>
> The problem for me, as I just posted, is that the raised voices, shouting,
what appears to me to be arguing, etc. makes me VERY anxious and then VERY
angry--especially when it is directed at me.  Sometimes, people ARE angry at me
and it is an argument and sometimes they aren't angry and it isn't an argument
and I lump it all together.
>
> And, then I have a temper tantrum. And, then I shout and scream and argue. 
Then, I feel horrible.  Everyone is angry at me.  I worry my husband will lose
his friends on the one hand.  And, on the other hand, I just cannot go thru life
being screamed and yelled at.  (They do also scream and yell when they are angry
as well as when they aren't!)
>
> It is amazing to me that we all get along as well as we do--face blindness,
autism, Asberger's, culture, and all.
>
> V
>

Good ideas.
 
We are going to buy t-shirts  for ourselves from the MHE website as our
communicatin for "break time" http://www.cafepress.com/mheandme.415838197
 
That way, we don't have to say the right word.
 
We also use signs (V out of the mouth for venting, fist on head for problem
solving, etc) so this helps if someone can't get the right word. 
 
So that might help... But we will definitely practice!

Deena Larsen
http://www.deenalarsen.net

--- On Sat, 11/14/09, faceblind@yahoogroups.com <faceblind@yahoogroups.com>
wrote:


From: faceblind@yahoogroups.com <faceblind@yahoogroups.com>
Subject: [faceblind] Digest Number 1720
To: faceblind@yahoogroups.com
Date: Saturday, November 14, 2009, 6:37 AM








Face Blindness - Prosopagnosia

Messages In This Digest (1 Message)


1a.
Re: Communication ideas From: Bonnie
View All Topics | Create New Topic
Message


1a.

Re: Communication ideas
Posted by: "Bonnie" orebon@...   bonnieinthemist
Fri Nov 13, 2009 12:03 pm (PST)


Among people with Asperger's is a condition known as discalculia. In
addition to not grasping the principles of arithmetic, people with
this condition are also not able to follow sequence or procedure like
dance steps.

In addition to discalculia, I also tend to mash words. My friend and I
waited with anticipation to see the movie, Crouching Tiger, Hidden
Dragon. In conversation I would say hidden tiger, crouching dragon; or
hidden dragon, leaping lizards; or other phrases. My friend thought it
amusing, but I wonder whether the phrasing for the communication
skills shouldn't be more precise.

Overall I like your "communication rules." They are tightly structured
and explicit.

My personal concern, if I were expected to follow them, would be that
I would not say exactly the proper term or mix them up somehow.

I would more confidently use the rules if the other person would coach
me as the conversation went along. This might be too much to ask
because that would mean the other person would have to be aware of my
feelings as well as his own.

Maybe a mock practice where everybody were relaxed and in good humor
would demonstrate how the rules could be used. Perhaps with some
popcorn or chips to keep things playful.

~Bonnie

- - - - -
Additions? Questions? Do these explanations make sense to you? What
could we clarify?

1) VACATION. When anyone says this word/gesture- -it means "I've had
enough right now and I need a break NOW. We either won't discuss it,
or I am going out to the library/garden/ hotel lobby/etc. We will
discuss later (or not). This is NOT slamming the door in anger. This
is NOT saying I don't love you anymore. Just like taking a break from
work doesn't mean you are quitting the job, taking a break from the
house doesn't mean you are quitting the family. Sometimes there will
be practical discussions after this word is said--but they should be
practical ONLY and everyone focuses on solving the problem and giving
the person a break as quickly as at all possible--breaks have
priority. (Person A says "VACATION". Person B says "Ok, but so and so
needs the car or such and such has an appointment, how will we work
that?" Person A and Person B come to a mutual solution that GIVES
PERSON A THE VACATION. -- "Person A--Ok, I will do this errand and
then go to Village
Inn" or Person B "the light rail is running, we can do that errand
tomorrow, etc.").

2) EXPLANATION NEEDED. When anyone says this word/gesture- -it means "I
am unhappy/angry/ upset at this situation and before I really spew over
it or whatever, I really want to know what your perspective was--Why
do XX or ask me to sacrifice YY when there was a solution ZZ that
would have benefitted both of us?" It does NOT mean you are angry. It
does NOT imply anyone is at fault. It just means I do not see what you
see, and I want to see all sides of this. This one you can expand:
"Person A: EXPLANATION NEEDED: I am exhausted and coming to get you
was a major sacrifice, yet I see that there is a light rail station
right here! Why did you ask me to do that? Person B: Well... so and
so. Person A: Ok, but next time, let's ....

3) VENTING. This is used when we just need to vent--we are angry
about something and don't want to solve the problem. A good response
to anything said during venting is "Oh honey, that sucks." Venting
can not use the word "you." It has to be "I feel this way when xx
happens..."

4) VALIDATING. This is used when we want to figure out what the other
person meant or is feeling. I can't read facial expressions- -but
apparently others have problems with understanding/ reading other
people's emotions, too. So this is a "free pass"--you can say
"validate" and no one will be angry or upset or call it silly.
(Person A: "Validating. .. were you angry when you said to turn here
quickly?" Person B: "Oh, no, I was just frustrated at Mapquest's bad
directions." or Person A: "Validating. ..were you upset when I was
late?" Person B: "Yes, I was because I was so worried for your safety
and I didn't hear from you." Then Person A and Person B figure out
better ways to communicate, solve the problem, etc.)

You can validate the other way around, too. So you can say validate
to make sure someone heard/understands your feelings. This is also a
"free pass"--the other person does not have to justify actions--just
understand how you feel. There is no "I'm sorry" expected or required
with validating. (Person A: "Validating: did you understand that I was
upset and worried when you came home late and did not call? I just
want you to know how I felt." PERSON B: "I understand you were upset
and worried. ")

5) PROBLEM SOLVING. This is used to improve our lives. This is not
getting angry or blaming. (Person A: "I feel hurt when you don't call
on time. I could be using this time instead of waiting for you.
Problem solve: How can we be more efficient?". ..then you figure out
ways that will work (alarm clocks, call if you will be more than 10
minutes late, etc.)

6) WORKING OUT THEIR OWN ISSUES. When others bully or threaten or
hurt, it is easier to say they are working out their own issues--and
it doesn't have anything to do with you. Then you can figure out how
you will approach these people.



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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Tee Hee....I 'enjoyed' your discription of interaction with your
husband.
Let me share mine....again, laughing, but with also a bit of
frustration.

I don't like shouting eather, or 'arguing/fighting' while I really
enjoy a
discussion/exchange of ideas. And I don't care if whoever I am talking
with has a different or opposing idea from me. Its just enjoyable to
have
the discussion.

ON the other hand I find that my sister in law believes that any
discussion
where there is dissagreement is a fight... so anything contraversal or
of
any meaning besides how the weather was is off limits. Her husband loves
to 'debate/discuss/explore' many topics, and can be demeaning while
doing
it. I can see the bit of put down for disagreeing, but at the same time
see the
grin rather than anger or raised voice in him as we discuss..so I
really enjoy
discussions with him on many topics.  Meanwhile while we are discussing
the
war, politics, the economy, gender roles, and so forth his wife is
panicking, while
Her husband and I are completly enjoying the exchange of ideas. Neather
of
us see it as a fight or argument... I see it as an exchange of ideas,
ahd he
as that but with a bit of arrogance on his part thrown in.

Now to my husband... he tends to get very upset, angry, frustrated very
easily many times a day. NO matter the task..weather driving, taking out
the trash, or what ever, if the slightest thing is out of wack or goes
wrong
he just can't deal with it and starts complainiing, shouting, gripping,
etc.  Every
task he approaches is like this so you can well emagine that he doesn't
enjoy
things a whole lot other than leasure things like music and
television/movies.

The sequence thing... I don't have a name for it...he's never been
'tested' or
diagonsed, but he can't seem to forsee consequences..can't think out a
senereo
or step by step solution and its results. Fot that reason he constantly
makes
mistakes... Its very frustraiting for me.  And, as much as he gets
upset at the slighest
hurdle/problem, once the deed is done or project finished he can't take
responsibility
for it.

If he decides to put a doornob in a door, by the time the doornob is in
there is little left of the
door. And, on the one hand, the 'door looks just fine' and on the other
'its everyone and everything elses fault for its demise'.  He didn't
start out to distroy the door. The aim was to
put a doornob in.

On arguing.... as much as he tends to let off steam when doinhurdg any
project, even just driving...
if you challenge him by trying to reason, with calm voice, with his
irritation and excitement
over the silliest and simpliest  hurdles... he thinks he is being
fought with or attacked...

Any diagnosis for him...and solutions for dealing with it....by him and
me?

I am rather the oppposite in that regard...I consider discussion just
that and not
argjment, even if the other person is mocking/laughing at my position.
For ti was just
a good exchange of ideas... I plan all steps when doing a project, and
if something
goes wrong I laugh, and take responsibility...figuring, mistakes
happen, and then figure
how to fix the problem...and enjoy tasks, work of any kind...
shoveling, dishes, cleaning,
to me is simply a task that gives one a feeling of acomplishiment in
doing.   Possibly I
have some sort of name to my 'condition' too..in enjoying work and
discussion.  As much
as I think my husbands approach to life isn't normal, positive or
healthy for him...I wonder
if my reverse isn't, if not unhealthy for me, at least abnormal?

Marcy

Marcy


-----Original Message-----
From: vcreek2002 <vcreek2002@...>
To: faceblind@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sat, Nov 14, 2009 10:56 am
Subject: [faceblind] Re: Communication ideas






























Hi All,



Warning:  Some slightly wry humor that may not be obvious :>)



I think these guidelines would work best amongst a group of intimates
who are all using them?  Is that how they were intended?



My husband and I differ tremendously in how we deal with conflict and
emotion.  I looked at my watch once at the point a conflict arose.  It
was less than 3 minutes when he said that he was tired of endless
emotional upheaval and endless haranguing from me :>)  I, of course,
would see this as a problem solving discussion that was not very
emotional and believe that it could easily take hours if not days or
weeks to solve critical relationship problems!  He needs a VACATION
after 3 minutes of what he perceives as an emotional storm.  In fact,
he needs so many vacations, that we cannot get any problem solving
done. An emotional storm to him, BTW, is when he sees himself as being
criticized which is every time there is any kind of problem :>)



On the other hand, VENTING is a good thing in his view of the
world--but not in mine. My heart pounds when people vent if it involves
shouting or ranting and raving. He thinks that as long as no one is
getting hurt, screaming, yelling, ranting, and raving (about the TV,
the stereo, the computer, etc.) are perfectly acceptable.  He even
thinks that voices raised in disagreement are acceptable--as long as it
is not MY voice being raised at HIM in disagreement.  So, everyone can
raise their voices at everyone and everything else EXCEPT I cannot
raise my voice at him--I believe that is the rule. In fact, he believes
that my view of life (that people should not scream and shout during
disagreements) is shallow--unless he is being screamed and shouted at.
:>)



Asking for an EXPLANATION is a great idea--as long as the other person
doesn't see it as a attack in disguise.  Right now I am reviewing a
project where mistakes were made and explanations are needed and I have
not come up with a way of finding out why decisions were made that is
not accusatory!



Actually, sometimes just, "Tell me more about what happened," would
work.  Or, "Tell me more about what you think about that."



I really need to as for explanations more often and argue less.
Recently, a friend was telling me that he whole-heartedly approved of
all of the young girls who were dressed up for Halloween in utterly
degrading prostitute costumes (we were at a casino)--I don't mean cute,
revealing, sexy, and somewhat provocative costumes.  We were seeing
girls in costumes that we nauseating.



I spent all evening arguing with him.  Of course, he just wanted to
rattle my chain.  Why didn't I just stop arguing and ask him to give me
an explanation of why he found 19 year old girls dressed as prostitutes
so charming!  Why don't I do this a LOT more often in life!?!



BTW, my husband watches some TV shows in which all of the characters
are the same age and all have symmetrical attractive face, are thin,
dress fashionably, and change their hair color frequently!  They also
change partners frequently.  I really don't see how their parents can
tell them apart!  :>)



Vivian



--- In faceblind@yahoogroups.com, Bonnie <orebon@...> wrote:

>

> Among people with Asperger's is a condition known as discalculia. In

> addition to not grasping the principles of arithmetic, people with

> this condition are also not able to follow sequence or procedure like


> dance steps.

>

> In addition to discalculia, I also tend to mash words. My friend and
I

> waited with anticipation to see the movie, Crouching Tiger, Hidden

> Dragon. In conversation I would say hidden tiger, crouching dragon;
or

> hidden dragon, leaping lizards; or other phrases. My friend thought
it

> amusing, but I wonder whether the phrasing for the communication

> skills shouldn't be more precise.

>

> Overall I like your "communication rules." They are tightly
structured

> and explicit.

>

> My personal concern, if I were expected to follow them, would be that


> I would not say exactly the proper term or mix them up somehow.

>

> I would more confidently use the rules if the other person would
coach

> me as the conversation went along. This might be too much to ask

> because that would mean the other person would have to be aware of my


> feelings as well as his own.

>

> Maybe a mock practice where everybody were relaxed and in good humor

> would demonstrate how the rules could be used. Perhaps with some

> popcorn or chips to keep things playful.

>

> ~Bonnie

>

>

>

> - - - - -

>   Additions? Questions? Do these explanations make sense to you? What


> could we clarify?

>

> 1) VACATION. When anyone says this word/gesture--it means "I've had

> enough right now and I need a break NOW. We either won't discuss it,

> or I am going out to the library/garden/hotel lobby/etc. We will

> discuss later (or not). This is NOT slamming the door in anger. This

> is NOT saying I don't love you anymore. Just like taking a break from


> work doesn't mean you are quitting the job, taking a break from the

> house doesn't mean you are quitting the family. Sometimes there will

> be practical discussions after this word is said--but they should be

> practical ONLY and everyone focuses on solving the problem and giving


> the person a break as quickly as at all possible--breaks have

> priority. (Person A says "VACATION". Person B says "Ok, but so and so


> needs the car or such and such has an appointment, how will we work

> that?" Person A and Person B come to a mutual solution that GIVES

> PERSON A THE VACATION. -- "Person A--Ok, I will do this errand and

> then go to Village

> Inn" or Person B "the light rail is running, we can do that errand

> tomorrow, etc.").

>

>

> 2) EXPLANATION NEEDED. When anyone says this word/gesture--it means
"I

> am unhappy/angry/upset at this situation and before I really spew
over

> it or whatever, I really want to know what your perspective was--Why

> do XX or ask me to sacrifice YY when there was a solution ZZ that

> would have benefitted both of us?" It does NOT mean you are angry. It


> does NOT imply anyone is at fault. It just means I do not see what
you

> see, and I want to see all sides of this. This one you can expand:

> "Person A: EXPLANATION NEEDED: I am exhausted and coming to get you

> was a major sacrifice, yet I see that there is a light rail station

> right here! Why did you ask me to do that? Person B: Well... so and

> so. Person A: Ok, but next time, let's ....

>

>

> 3) VENTING.  This is used when we just need to vent--we are angry

> about something and don't want to solve the problem.  A good response


> to anything said during venting is "Oh honey, that sucks."  Venting

> can not use the word "you."  It has to be "I feel this way when xx

> happens..."

>

>

> 4) VALIDATING.  This is used when we want to figure out what the
other

> person meant or is feeling.  I can't read facial expressions--but

> apparently others have problems with understanding/reading other

> people's emotions, too.  So this is a "free pass"--you can say

> "validate" and no one will be angry or upset or call it silly.

> (Person A: "Validating... were you angry when you said to turn here

> quickly?" Person B: "Oh, no, I was just frustrated at Mapquest's bad

> directions." or Person A: "Validating...were you upset when I was

> late?" Person B: "Yes, I was because I was so worried for your safety


> and I didn't hear from you." Then Person A and Person B figure out

> better ways to communicate, solve the problem, etc.)

>

> You can validate the other way around, too.  So you can say validate

> to make sure someone heard/understands your feelings. This is also a

> "free pass"--the other person does not have to justify actions--just

> understand how you feel. There is no "I'm sorry" expected or required


> with validating. (Person A: "Validating: did you understand that I
was

> upset and worried when you came home late and did not call?  I just

> want you to know how I felt." PERSON B: "I understand you were upset

> and worried. ")

>

>

> 5) PROBLEM SOLVING.  This is used to improve our lives.  This is not


> getting angry or blaming.  (Person A: "I feel hurt when you don't
call

> on time.  I could be using this time instead of waiting for you.

> Problem solve: How can we be more efficient?"...then you figure out

> ways that will work (alarm clocks, call if you will be more than 10

> minutes late, etc.)

>

>

> 6) WORKING OUT THEIR OWN ISSUES.  When others bully or threaten or

> hurt, it is easier to say they are working out their own issues--and

> it doesn't have anything to do with you. Then you can figure out how

> you will approach these people.

>

Sorry, but I see no humor, wry or otherwise, in the first few paragraphs of your
message, and I am writing to you privately about this.

As for the second part, young girls dressed as prostitutes, how young are we
talking here?  (I often find the term "young girl" confusing, as "young boy"
would generally refer to a male child under age 10 or so; while "young girl" may
refer to child, or to a woman under 30 or so.) If the "young girls" are
pre-pubescent, this is definitely sick and wrong, as it is taboo in our society
and most western societies to attach sexual significance to children who have
not yet attained puberty. But then, you say this is was in a casino, so they
would have had to be at least 18 or 21, depending on the local laws (All this is
assuming this was a legal casino in the USA. If you're living in or visiting a
place in the Third World where child sex trafficking is legal, your mileage may
vary.)

If they are of legal age and in a legal adult entertainment venue, they may
dress pretty raunchy yet still be within the lines of what's acceptable for that
context.  If you prefer not to see such dress, whether it physically makes you
sick or you simply don't like it, you have the right to refrain from going to
that place, or to leave.  If you can't state your need to avoid or leave such a
place without getting into a conflict and losing, please see my private message
to you.

I don't like to go in casinos because of the noise, crowds, waste, outrageous
costumes, etc., so I don't go.  If someone I'm with wants me to go to a casino
with them, I either say no, or I find ways to cope and to make the stay as short
as possible.  Again, please see my private message to you, as I see no humor,
wry or otherwise, in your message.

Thanks - Joni



--- In faceblind@yahoogroups.com, "vcreek2002" <vcreek2002@...> wrote:
>
> Hi All,
>
> Warning:  Some slightly wry humor that may not be obvious :>)
>
> I think these guidelines would work best amongst a group of intimates who are
all using them?  Is that how they were intended?
>
> My husband and I differ tremendously in how we deal with conflict and emotion.
I looked at my watch once at the point a conflict arose.  It was less than 3
minutes when he said that he was tired of endless emotional upheaval and endless
haranguing from me :>)  I, of course, would see this as a problem solving
discussion that was not very emotional and believe that it could easily take
hours if not days or weeks to solve critical relationship problems!  He needs a
VACATION after 3 minutes of what he perceives as an emotional storm.  In fact,
he needs so many vacations, that we cannot get any problem solving done. An
emotional storm to him, BTW, is when he sees himself as being criticized which
is every time there is any kind of problem :>)
>
> On the other hand, VENTING is a good thing in his view of the world--but not
in mine. My heart pounds when people vent if it involves shouting or ranting and
raving. He thinks that as long as no one is getting hurt, screaming, yelling,
ranting, and raving (about the TV, the stereo, the computer, etc.) are perfectly
acceptable.  He even thinks that voices raised in disagreement are
acceptable--as long as it is not MY voice being raised at HIM in disagreement. 
So, everyone can raise their voices at everyone and everything else EXCEPT I
cannot raise my voice at him--I believe that is the rule. In fact, he believes
that my view of life (that people should not scream and shout during
disagreements) is shallow--unless he is being screamed and shouted at. :>)
>
> Asking for an EXPLANATION is a great idea--as long as the other person doesn't
see it as a attack in disguise.  Right now I am reviewing a project where
mistakes were made and explanations are needed and I have not come up with a way
of finding out why decisions were made that is not accusatory!
>
> Actually, sometimes just, "Tell me more about what happened," would work.  Or,
"Tell me more about what you think about that."
>
> I really need to as for explanations more often and argue less.  Recently, a
friend was telling me that he whole-heartedly approved of all of the young girls
who were dressed up for Halloween in utterly degrading prostitute costumes (we
were at a casino)--I don't mean cute, revealing, sexy, and somewhat provocative
costumes.  We were seeing girls in costumes that we nauseating.
>
> I spent all evening arguing with him.  Of course, he just wanted to rattle my
chain.  Why didn't I just stop arguing and ask him to give me an explanation of
why he found 19 year old girls dressed as prostitutes so charming!  Why don't I
do this a LOT more often in life!?!
>
> BTW, my husband watches some TV shows in which all of the characters are the
same age and all have symmetrical attractive face, are thin, dress fashionably,
and change their hair color frequently!  They also change partners frequently. 
I really don't see how their parents can tell them apart!  :>)
>
> Vivian

I wouldn't suggest making a habit of assuming that my perceptions are wrong, as
this can get very confusing.

Instead, I'd suggest making a habit of suspending judgment, while looking for
further clues and/ or asking for more information.  For example, notice: are the
veins in their temples standing out?  Are their faces getting red?  Are their
pupils contracting, their nostrils flaring, their breathing getting faster?  For
those with an acute sense of smell, is there a hint of musk or vinegar in the
air, suggesting elevated stress hormones? Asking for information can be as
simple and straightforward as, "Excuse me," followed by questions such as, Are
you angry at each other?  Are you fighting?  Are you serious?

If you're uncomfortable in a situation, whether because someone is arguing with
you or because you don't like to see other people arguing, you should always
have the right to leave.  If you don't have this right, please see my private
message.

Thanks - Joni

--- In faceblind@yahoogroups.com, "Rob" <robcross555@...> wrote:
>
> Hey V, there's a way you can get around not being able to tell if people are
angry or arguing with you. Knowing you have trouble with that, when people seem
to be arguing or angry, consciously think about how it sometimes seems to you
that people are arguing when they aren't. Remember that time with your friend
and his wife, and assume that you're perceiving it wrong.
>
> Rob
>
>
> --- In faceblind@yahoogroups.com, "vcreek2002" <vcreek2002@> wrote:
> >
> > Wow,  Sometimes it just hits me over the head how very difficult any
communication is.
> >
> > My husband, as you can tell, is from a rather different background than I
am.
> >
> > After 35 years, I am frequently unable to discern if some people are arguing
or not of if they are angry or not.
> >
> > Recently, I asked!  I just asked his best friend and his wife if they were
angry and having an argument.  I explained that after all of these years, I just
do not know!  They both laughed and said, "No, we are not angry and this isn't
an argument!"
> >
> > The problem for me, as I just posted, is that the raised voices, shouting,
what appears to me to be arguing, etc. makes me VERY anxious and then VERY
angry--especially when it is directed at me.  Sometimes, people ARE angry at me
and it is an argument and sometimes they aren't angry and it isn't an argument
and I lump it all together.
> >
> > And, then I have a temper tantrum. And, then I shout and scream and argue. 
Then, I feel horrible.  Everyone is angry at me.  I worry my husband will lose
his friends on the one hand.  And, on the other hand, I just cannot go thru life
being screamed and yelled at.  (They do also scream and yell when they are angry
as well as when they aren't!)
> >
> > It is amazing to me that we all get along as well as we do--face blindness,
autism, Asberger's, culture, and all.
> >
> > V
> >
>

----- Original Message -----
From: "Joni DaNerd" <jonipinkney@...>


>
> Sorry, but I see no humor, wry or otherwise, in the first few paragraphs
> of your message, and I am writing to you privately about this.


*Hmm, then why am I reading this here?  :)

>
> As for the second part, young girls dressed as prostitutes, how young are
> we talking here?  (I often find the term "young girl" confusing, as "young
> boy" would generally refer to a male child under age 10 or so; while
> "young girl" may refer to child, or to a woman under 30 or so.)


*I have a problem with that terminology, too. Like you I consider a 'young
girl' to be a young female child. Oh well...


> If the "young girls" are pre-pubescent, this is definitely sick and wrong,
> as it is taboo in our society and most western societies to attach sexual
> significance to children who have not yet attained puberty.


*Here in the US they do so even if they're fully developed. They consider a
guy a pedophile if he has sex with a 16- or 17-year-old. I don't get this
mindset, either. On the other hand, if the fully developed girl is 12 or 13
(some girls start very early, I did), then she should be considered
off-limits sexually.


> But then, you say this is was in a casino, so they would have had to be at
> least 18 or 21, depending on the local laws


*That's what I was thinking, too. At 18+ a revealing outfit is fine, if
that's what the young woman chooses to wear.


D.

Hi,

If this was private it ended up instead on the forum. I think you meant
to
rely to someone else too as I have never dressed my one girl, now twenty
one up as a prostitute nor have I ever been in a gambling establishment.
I am a New Englander and we here are rather prude.   I would agree that
there is far too much sex exposed to our children though...   I would
think
that if it was a casino than probably young 'women'. I wouldn't approve
no matter the age.  But, then, I can't go telling others how to live..
What
I can do only is not expose myself and family to it all...  I would be
happy
though if folks preferred to live a more positive lifestyle.

Marcy


-----Original Message-----
From: Joni DaNerd <jonipinkney@...>
To: faceblind@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sun, Nov 15, 2009 12:18 pm
Subject: [faceblind] Re: Communication ideas
































Sorry, but I see no humor, wry or otherwise, in the first few
paragraphs of your message, and I am writing to you privately about
this.



As for the second part, young girls dressed as prostitutes, how young
are we talking here?  (I often find the term "young girl" confusing, as
"young boy" would generally refer to a male child under age 10 or so;
while "young girl" may refer to child, or to a woman under 30 or so.)
If the "young girls" are pre-pubescent, this is definitely sick and
wrong, as it is taboo in our society and most western societies to
attach sexual significance to children who have not yet attained
puberty. But then, you say this is was in a casino, so they would have
had to be at least 18 or 21, depending on the local laws (All this is
assuming this was a legal casino in the USA. If you're living in or
visiting a place in the Third World where child sex trafficking is
legal, your mileage may vary.)



If they are of legal age and in a legal adult entertainment venue, they
may dress pretty raunchy yet still be within the lines of what's
acceptable for that context.  If you prefer not to see such dress,
whether it physically makes you sick or you simply don't like it, you
have the right to refrain from going to that place, or to leave.  If
you can't state your need to avoid or leave such a place without
getting into a conflict and losing, please see my private message to
you.



I don't like to go in casinos because of the noise, crowds, waste,
outrageous costumes, etc., so I don't go.  If someone I'm with wants me
to go to a casino with them, I either say no, or I find ways to cope
and to make the stay as short as possible.  Again, please see my
private message to you, as I see no humor, wry or otherwise, in your
message.



Thanks - Joni



--- In faceblind@yahoogroups.com, "vcreek2002" <vcreek2002@...> wrote:

>

> Hi All,

>

> Warning:  Some slightly wry humor that may not be obvious :>)

>

> I think these guidelines would work best amongst a group of intimates
who are all using them?  Is that how they were intended?

>

> My husband and I differ tremendously in how we deal with conflict and
emotion.  I looked at my watch once at the point a conflict arose.  It
was less than 3 minutes when he said that he was tired of endless
emotional upheaval and endless haranguing from me :>)  I, of course,
would see this as a problem solving discussion that was not very
emotional and believe that it could easily take hours if not days or
weeks to solve critical relationship problems!  He needs a VACATION
after 3 minutes of what he perceives as an emotional storm.  In fact,
he needs so many vacations, that we cannot get any problem solving
done. An emotional storm to him, BTW, is when he sees himself as being
criticized which is every time there is any kind of problem :>)

>

> On the other hand, VENTING is a good thing in his view of the
world--but not in mine. My heart pounds when people vent if it involves
shouting or ranting and raving. He thinks that as long as no one is
getting hurt, screaming, yelling, ranting, and raving (about the TV,
the stereo, the computer, etc.) are perfectly acceptable.  He even
thinks that voices raised in disagreement are acceptable--as long as it
is not MY voice being raised at HIM in disagreement.  So, everyone can
raise their voices at everyone and everything else EXCEPT I cannot
raise my voice at him--I believe that is the rule. In fact, he believes
that my view of life (that people should not scream and shout during
disagreements) is shallow--unless he is being screamed and shouted at.
:>)

>

> Asking for an EXPLANATION is a great idea--as long as the other
person doesn't see it as a attack in disguise.  Right now I am
reviewing a project where mistakes were made and explanations are
needed and I have not come up with a way of finding out why decisions
were made that is not accusatory!

>

> Actually, sometimes just, "Tell me more about what happened," would
work.  Or, "Tell me more about what you think about that."

>

> I really need to as for explanations more often and argue less.
Recently, a friend was telling me that he whole-heartedly approved of
all of the young girls who were dressed up for Halloween in utterly
degrading prostitute costumes (we were at a casino)--I don't mean cute,
revealing, sexy, and somewhat provocative costumes.  We were seeing
girls in costumes that we nauseating.

>

> I spent all evening arguing with him.  Of course, he just wanted to
rattle my chain.  Why didn't I just stop arguing and ask him to give me
an explanation of why he found 19 year old girls dressed as prostitutes
so charming!  Why don't I do this a LOT more often in life!?!

>

> BTW, my husband watches some TV shows in which all of the characters
are the same age and all have symmetrical attractive face, are thin,
dress fashionably, and change their hair color frequently!  They also
change partners frequently.  I really don't see how their parents can
tell them apart!  :>)

>

> Vivian

-----Original Message-----
From: Delila <watertiger13@...>
To: faceblind@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sun, Nov 15, 2009 1:07 pm
Subject: Re: [faceblind] Re: Communication ideas
































----- Original Message -----

From: "Joni DaNerd" <jonipinkney@...>



>

> Sorry, but I see no humor, wry or otherwise, in the first few
paragraphs

> of your message, and I am writing to you privately about this.



*Hmm, then why am I reading this here?  :)



>

> As for the second part, young girls dressed as prostitutes, how young
are

> we talking here?  (I often find the term "young girl" confusing, as
"young

> boy" would generally refer to a male child under age 10 or so; while

> "young girl" may refer to child, or to a woman under 30 or so.)



*I have a problem with that terminology, too. Like you I consider a
'young

girl' to be a young female child. Oh well...



> If the "young girls" are pre-pubescent, this is definitely sick and
wrong,

> as it is taboo in our society and most western societies to attach
sexual

> significance to children who have not yet attained puberty.



*Here in the US they do so even if they're fully developed. They
consider a

guy a pedophile if he has sex with a 16- or 17-year-old. I don't get
this

mindset, either. On the other hand, if the fully developed girl is 12
or 13

(some girls start very early, I did), then she should be considered

off-limits sexually.



> But then, you say this is was in a casino, so they would have had to
be at

> least 18 or 21, depending on the local laws



*That's what I was thinking, too. At 18+ a revealing outfit is fine, if

that's what the young woman chooses to wear.



D.

I must remember to not double click on reply as it then goes out before
I can put in my reply.

I got it too so yes, it did go out to the fourm. So, then don't know who
it was intended for.

My personal opinion....too much sex in society and far too much of it
exposed to those who are too young.  Don't approve of children
having sex at sixteen or seventeen eather. That might be appropriate
elsewhere in the world, but its about culture and maturity of the child
in their society, and even while our youth are exposed to far too much
sex they are not mature nor does our society provide for mature dealing
with sex at those young ages.

Am a New Englander... and not that everyone is a prude here, as we
have lots of immigrants, and folks migrating here from elsewhere in the
USA...but basically New England culture is more reserved and traditional
sexually...far more than the rest of the nation...and then Americans as
a
while,are more so than say Europeaners.  That doesn't stop society here
  from focusing publically far too much on sex. And it, in my opinion,
does
great harm to society here.

That said, its, in this nation of the free, for each person to choose
how
they will live/carry themself.  The live and let live... and so I
aknowledge
others the right to approach the topic a part of that scethey see fit,
while also reserving
the right to hold to my own attitude towards the topic as well as
resolving
to not being a participant of that scene as eather a participant or
observer.
If I had found the 'scenery' too upsetting or against my principals..I
would have
simply gotten up and left...reserving my business for those places I
felt comfortable
in.

Marcy


-----Original Message-----
From: Marcyshamb@...
To: faceblind@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sun, Nov 15, 2009 1:32 pm
Subject: Re: [faceblind] Re: Communication ideas






























Hi,



If this was private it ended up instead on the forum. I think you meant

to

rely to someone else too as I have never dressed my one girl, now twenty

one up as a prostitute nor have I ever been in a gambling establishment.

I am a New Englander and we here are rather prude.   I would agree that

there is far too much sex exposed to our children though...   I would

think

that if it was a casino than probably young 'women'. I wouldn't approve

no matter the age.  But, then, I can't go telling others how to live..

What

I can do only is not expose myself and family to it all...  I would be

happy

though if folks preferred to live a more positive lifestyle.



Marcy



-----Original Message-----

From: Joni DaNerd <jonipinkney@...>

To: faceblind@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Sun, Nov 15, 2009 12:18 pm

Subject: [faceblind] Re: Communication ideas



Sorry, but I see no humor, wry or otherwise, in the first few

paragraphs of your message, and I am writing to you privately about

this.



As for the second part, young girls dressed as prostitutes, how young

are we talking here?  (I often find the term "young girl" confusing, as

"young boy" would generally refer to a male child under age 10 or so;

while "young girl" may refer to child, or to a woman under 30 or so.)

If the "young girls" are pre-pubescent, this is definitely sick and

wrong, as it is taboo in our society and most western societies to

attach sexual significance to children who have not yet attained

puberty. But then, you say this is was in a casino, so they would have

had to be at least 18 or 21, depending on the local laws (All this is

assuming this was a legal casino in the USA. If you're living in or

visiting a place in the Third World where child sex trafficking is

legal, your mileage may vary.)



If they are of legal age and in a legal adult entertainment venue, they

may dress pretty raunchy yet still be within the lines of what's

acceptable for that context.  If you prefer not to see such dress,

whether it physically makes you sick or you simply don't like it, you

have the right to refrain from going to that place, or to leave.  If

you can't state your need to avoid or leave such a place without

getting into a conflict and losing, please see my private message to

you.



I don't like to go in casinos because of the noise, crowds, waste,

outrageous costumes, etc., so I don't go.  If someone I'm with wants me

to go to a casino with them, I either say no, or I find ways to cope

and to make the stay as short as possible.  Again, please see my

private message to you, as I see no humor, wry or otherwise, in your

message.



Thanks - Joni



--- In faceblind@yahoogroups.com, "vcreek2002" <vcreek2002@...> wrote:



>



> Hi All,



>



> Warning:  Some slightly wry humor that may not be obvious :>)



>



> I think these guidelines would work best amongst a group of intimates

who are all using them?  Is that how they were intended?



>



> My husband and I differ tremendously in how we deal with conflict and

emotion.  I looked at my watch once at the point a conflict arose.  It

was less than 3 minutes when he said that he was tired of endless

emotional upheaval and endless haranguing from me :>)  I, of course,

would see this as a problem solving discussion that was not very

emotional and believe that it could easily take hours if not days or

weeks to solve critical relationship problems!  He needs a VACATION

after 3 minutes of what he perceives as an emotional storm.  In fact,

he needs so many vacations, that we cannot get any problem solving

done. An emotional storm to him, BTW, is when he sees himself as being

criticized which is every time there is any kind of problem :>)



>



> On the other hand, VENTING is a good thing in his view of the

world--but not in mine. My heart pounds when people vent if it involves

shouting or ranting and raving. He thinks that as long as no one is

getting hurt, screaming, yelling, ranting, and raving (about the TV,

the stereo, the computer, etc.) are perfectly acceptable.  He even

thinks that voices raised in disagreement are acceptable--as long as it

is not MY voice being raised at HIM in disagreement.  So, everyone can

raise their voices at everyone and everything else EXCEPT I cannot

raise my voice at him--I believe that is the rule. In fact, he believes

that my view of life (that people should not scream and shout during

disagreements) is shallow--unless he is being screamed and shouted at.

:>)



>



> Asking for an EXPLANATION is a great idea--as long as the other

person doesn't see it as a attack in disguise.  Right now I am

reviewing a project where mistakes were made and explanations are

needed and I have not come up with a way of finding out why decisions

were made that is not accusatory!



>



> Actually, sometimes just, "Tell me more about what happened," would

work.  Or, "Tell me more about what you think about that."



>



> I really need to as for explanations more often and argue less.

Recently, a friend was telling me that he whole-heartedly approved of

all of the young girls who were dressed up for Halloween in utterly

degrading prostitute costumes (we were at a casino)--I don't mean cute,

revealing, sexy, and somewhat provocative costumes.  We were seeing

girls in costumes that we nauseating.



>



> I spent all evening arguing with him.  Of course, he just wanted to

rattle my chain.  Why didn't I just stop arguing and ask him to give me

an explanation of why he found 19 year old girls dressed as prostitutes

so charming!  Why don't I do this a LOT more often in life!?!



>



> BTW, my husband watches some TV shows in which all of the characters

are the same age and all have symmetrical attractive face, are thin,

dress fashionably, and change their hair color frequently!  They also

change partners frequently.  I really don't see how their parents can

tell them apart!  :>)



>



> Vivian

With all due respect to everyone, I think this has gotten off topic enough that
perhaps the discussion should be taking part outside the list/group.


Shae
(Sent from my iPhone)

On Nov 15, 2009, at 1:35 PM, Marcyshamb@... wrote:



-----Original Message-----
From: Delila <watertiger13@...>
To: faceblind@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sun, Nov 15, 2009 1:07 pm
Subject: Re: [faceblind] Re: Communication ideas

----- Original Message -----

From: "Joni DaNerd" <jonipinkney@...>

>

> Sorry, but I see no humor, wry or otherwise, in the first few
paragraphs

> of your message, and I am writing to you privately about this.

*Hmm, then why am I reading this here? :)

>

> As for the second part, young girls dressed as prostitutes, how young
are

> we talking here? (I often find the term "young girl" confusing, as
"young

> boy" would generally refer to a male child under age 10 or so; while

> "young girl" may refer to child, or to a woman under 30 or so.)

*I have a problem with that terminology, too. Like you I consider a
'young

girl' to be a young female child. Oh well...

> If the "young girls" are pre-pubescent, this is definitely sick and
wrong,

> as it is taboo in our society and most western societies to attach
sexual

> significance to children who have not yet attained puberty.

*Here in the US they do so even if they're fully developed. They
consider a

guy a pedophile if he has sex with a 16- or 17-year-old. I don't get
this

mindset, either. On the other hand, if the fully developed girl is 12
or 13

(some girls start very early, I did), then she should be considered

off-limits sexually.

> But then, you say this is was in a casino, so they would have had to
be at

> least 18 or 21, depending on the local laws

*That's what I was thinking, too. At 18+ a revealing outfit is fine, if

that's what the young woman chooses to wear.

D.




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

My response to the first part of the message was written privately to the person
who wrote the message.  It pertained to personal matters, life difficulties
which are related to communication difficulties, which are in turn often
comorbid with face blindness.  Because it pertained to personal matters I wrote
the person off list.

My response to the second part of the message was posted to the list. It
pertained to the clothing styles of young women, varying standards depending on
the time, place, and age of the young women, and the balance between some
people's right to dress the way they want and other people's right to leave
places where they don't like the way some people are dressed.  This is a public
matter suited to public discussion.  Although I admit maybe doesn't directly
pertain to face blindness, except in so far as it relates to the communication
difficulties discussed in the first part of the message, hence my refernence to
the message I sent privately.

If the moderator thinks this discussion ought to end, I will say no more.


--- In faceblind@yahoogroups.com, "Delila" <watertiger13@...> wrote:
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Joni DaNerd" <jonipinkney@...>
>
>
> >
> > Sorry, but I see no humor, wry or otherwise, in the first few paragraphs
> > of your message, and I am writing to you privately about this.
>
>
> *Hmm, then why am I reading this here?  :)
>
> >
> > As for the second part, young girls dressed as prostitutes, how young are
> > we talking here?  (I often find the term "young girl" confusing, as "young
> > boy" would generally refer to a male child under age 10 or so; while
> > "young girl" may refer to child, or to a woman under 30 or so.)
>
>
> *I have a problem with that terminology, too. Like you I consider a 'young
> girl' to be a young female child. Oh well...
>
>
> > If the "young girls" are pre-pubescent, this is definitely sick and wrong,
> > as it is taboo in our society and most western societies to attach sexual
> > significance to children who have not yet attained puberty.
>
>
> *Here in the US they do so even if they're fully developed. They consider a
> guy a pedophile if he has sex with a 16- or 17-year-old. I don't get this
> mindset, either. On the other hand, if the fully developed girl is 12 or 13
> (some girls start very early, I did), then she should be considered
> off-limits sexually.
>
>
> > But then, you say this is was in a casino, so they would have had to be at
> > least 18 or 21, depending on the local laws
>
>
> *That's what I was thinking, too. At 18+ a revealing outfit is fine, if
> that's what the young woman chooses to wear.
>
>
> D.
>

Marcy, I am glad that you enjoyed my description of my interaction with my
husband!  I received Joni's personal note and was afraid that I had caused some
concern here.  I did mean it to be humorous and do want to make clear that he is
not abusive and I am not in any trouble at all.

[Also, the reason that I talked about the young ladies (late teens, early
twenties :>) dressed as prostitutes was not to discus the pros and cons of
public sexuality but to discuss how I handled my frustration with my friend who
kept bating me all evening.  I considered that communication was an appropriate
topic for this group.  I was trying to think about ways of handling conflict
better. This was a situation I handled poorly.]

I wonder if your husband has Attention Deficit Disorder?  My husband gets
frustrated rather easily, too.  His shouting is mostly about the fact that he
lost his keys or his glasses or his laptap, again.  And, he doesn't project out
the consequences of his actions or a sequence of events very well, either.  He
does not have very good manual dexterity and gets very frustrated by that.  And,
he has poor visual-spatial skills so his frustration levels are really high.  He
is very intelligent and very good at his profession.  But, does not do well in
the physical world :>)

[We sound like a "train wreck!"  LOL!]

The most common situation being that he puts something we need weekly in the
back of the closet behind heavy objects that we only need yearly!  So, I have to
move the heavy object to get to the object that we need--because he won't :>) 
arrgh!

I admit that I do get rather panicked about disagreements turning into arguments
and I am rather overly sensitive.

I like discussion a lot but do not like personal disagreement.

Vivian

--- In faceblind@yahoogroups.com, Marcyshamb@... wrote:
>
> Tee Hee....I 'enjoyed' your discription of interaction with your
> husband.
> Let me share mine....again, laughing, but with also a bit of
> frustration.
>
> I don't like shouting eather, or 'arguing/fighting' while I really
> enjoy a
> discussion/exchange of ideas. And I don't care if whoever I am talking
> with has a different or opposing idea from me. Its just enjoyable to
> have
> the discussion.
>
> ON the other hand I find that my sister in law believes that any
> discussion
> where there is dissagreement is a fight... so anything contraversal or
> of
> any meaning besides how the weather was is off limits. Her husband loves
> to 'debate/discuss/explore' many topics, and can be demeaning while
> doing
> it. I can see the bit of put down for disagreeing, but at the same time
> see the
> grin rather than anger or raised voice in him as we discuss..so I
> really enjoy
> discussions with him on many topics.  Meanwhile while we are discussing
> the
> war, politics, the economy, gender roles, and so forth his wife is
> panicking, while
> Her husband and I are completly enjoying the exchange of ideas. Neather
> of
> us see it as a fight or argument... I see it as an exchange of ideas,
> ahd he
> as that but with a bit of arrogance on his part thrown in.
>
> Now to my husband... he tends to get very upset, angry, frustrated very
> easily many times a day. NO matter the task..weather driving, taking out
> the trash, or what ever, if the slightest thing is out of wack or goes
> wrong
> he just can't deal with it and starts complainiing, shouting, gripping,
> etc.  Every
> task he approaches is like this so you can well emagine that he doesn't
> enjoy
> things a whole lot other than leasure things like music and
> television/movies.
>
> The sequence thing... I don't have a name for it...he's never been
> 'tested' or
> diagonsed, but he can't seem to forsee consequences..can't think out a
> senereo
> or step by step solution and its results. Fot that reason he constantly
> makes
> mistakes... Its very frustraiting for me.  And, as much as he gets
> upset at the slighest
> hurdle/problem, once the deed is done or project finished he can't take
> responsibility
> for it.
>
> If he decides to put a doornob in a door, by the time the doornob is in
> there is little left of the
> door. And, on the one hand, the 'door looks just fine' and on the other
> 'its everyone and everything elses fault for its demise'.  He didn't
> start out to distroy the door. The aim was to
> put a doornob in.
>
> On arguing.... as much as he tends to let off steam when doinhurdg any
> project, even just driving...
> if you challenge him by trying to reason, with calm voice, with his
> irritation and excitement
> over the silliest and simpliest  hurdles... he thinks he is being
> fought with or attacked...
>
> Any diagnosis for him...and solutions for dealing with it....by him and
> me?
>
> I am rather the oppposite in that regard...I consider discussion just
> that and not
> argjment, even if the other person is mocking/laughing at my position.
> For ti was just
> a good exchange of ideas... I plan all steps when doing a project, and
> if something
> goes wrong I laugh, and take responsibility...figuring, mistakes
> happen, and then figure
> how to fix the problem...and enjoy tasks, work of any kind...
> shoveling, dishes, cleaning,
> to me is simply a task that gives one a feeling of acomplishiment in
> doing.   Possibly I
> have some sort of name to my 'condition' too..in enjoying work and
> discussion.  As much
> as I think my husbands approach to life isn't normal, positive or
> healthy for him...I wonder
> if my reverse isn't, if not unhealthy for me, at least abnormal?
>
> Marcy
>
> Marcy
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: vcreek2002 <vcreek2002@...>
> To: faceblind@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Sat, Nov 14, 2009 10:56 am
> Subject: [faceblind] Re: Communication ideas
>

> Hi All,
>
>
>
> Warning:  Some slightly wry humor that may not be obvious :>)
>
>
>
> I think these guidelines would work best amongst a group of intimates
> who are all using them?  Is that how they were intended?
>
>
>
> My husband and I differ tremendously in how we deal with conflict and
> emotion.  I looked at my watch once at the point a conflict arose.  It
> was less than 3 minutes when he said that he was tired of endless
> emotional upheaval and endless haranguing from me :>)  I, of course,
> would see this as a problem solving discussion that was not very
> emotional and believe that it could easily take hours if not days or
> weeks to solve critical relationship problems!  He needs a VACATION
> after 3 minutes of what he perceives as an emotional storm.  In fact,
> he needs so many vacations, that we cannot get any problem solving
> done. An emotional storm to him, BTW, is when he sees himself as being
> criticized which is every time there is any kind of problem :>)
>
>
>
> On the other hand, VENTING is a good thing in his view of the
> world--but not in mine. My heart pounds when people vent if it involves
> shouting or ranting and raving. He thinks that as long as no one is
> getting hurt, screaming, yelling, ranting, and raving (about the TV,
> the stereo, the computer, etc.) are perfectly acceptable.  He even
> thinks that voices raised in disagreement are acceptable--as long as it
> is not MY voice being raised at HIM in disagreement.  So, everyone can
> raise their voices at everyone and everything else EXCEPT I cannot
> raise my voice at him--I believe that is the rule. In fact, he believes
> that my view of life (that people should not scream and shout during
> disagreements) is shallow--unless he is being screamed and shouted at.
> :>)
>
>
>
> Asking for an EXPLANATION is a great idea--as long as the other person
> doesn't see it as a attack in disguise.  Right now I am reviewing a
> project where mistakes were made and explanations are needed and I have
> not come up with a way of finding out why decisions were made that is
> not accusatory!
>
>
>
> Actually, sometimes just, "Tell me more about what happened," would
> work.  Or, "Tell me more about what you think about that."
>
>
>
> I really need to as for explanations more often and argue less.
> Recently, a friend was telling me that he whole-heartedly approved of
> all of the young girls who were dressed up for Halloween in utterly
> degrading prostitute costumes (we were at a casino)--I don't mean cute,
> revealing, sexy, and somewhat provocative costumes.  We were seeing
> girls in costumes that we nauseating.
>
>
>
> I spent all evening arguing with him.  Of course, he just wanted to
> rattle my chain.  Why didn't I just stop arguing and ask him to give me
> an explanation of why he found 19 year old girls dressed as prostitutes
> so charming!  Why don't I do this a LOT more often in life!?!
>
>
>
> BTW, my husband watches some TV shows in which all of the characters
> are the same age and all have symmetrical attractive face, are thin,
> dress fashionably, and change their hair color frequently!  They also
> change partners frequently.  I really don't see how their parents can
> tell them apart!  :>)
>
>
>
> Vivian
>
>
>
> --- In faceblind@yahoogroups.com, Bonnie <orebon@> wrote:
>
> >
>
> > Among people with Asperger's is a condition known as discalculia. In
....

Hi Shae,

I was trying to address communication and not sexuality :>)  I was using the
example of the discussion about how young women were dressed on Halloween.

A friend provoked my all evening and I handled it poorly.

This was not meant to be a discussion of the definition of "young girls"  (they
were "young girls" relative to me :>) nor of public attire.

See, communication really is difficult!

Vivian

--- In faceblind@yahoogroups.com, Shae <shaeleighland@...> wrote:
>
> With all due respect to everyone, I think this has gotten off topic enough
that perhaps the discussion should be taking part outside the list/group.
>
>
> Shae
> (Sent from my iPhone)
>
> On Nov 15, 2009, at 1:35 PM, Marcyshamb@... wrote:
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Delila <watertiger13@...>
> To: faceblind@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Sun, Nov 15, 2009 1:07 pm
> Subject: Re: [faceblind] Re: Communication ideas
>
> ----- Original Message -----
>
> From: "Joni DaNerd" <jonipinkney@...>
>
> >
>
> > Sorry, but I see no humor, wry or otherwise, in the first few
> paragraphs
>
> > of your message, and I am writing to you privately about this.
>
> *Hmm, then why am I reading this here? :)
>
> >
>
> > As for the second part, young girls dressed as prostitutes, how young
> are
>
> > we talking here? (I often find the term "young girl" confusing, as
> "young
>
> > boy" would generally refer to a male child under age 10 or so; while
>
> > "young girl" may refer to child, or to a woman under 30 or so.)
>
> *I have a problem with that terminology, too. Like you I consider a
> 'young
>
> girl' to be a young female child. Oh well...
>
> > If the "young girls" are pre-pubescent, this is definitely sick and
> wrong,
>
> > as it is taboo in our society and most western societies to attach
> sexual
>
> > significance to children who have not yet attained puberty.
>
> *Here in the US they do so even if they're fully developed. They
> consider a
>
> guy a pedophile if he has sex with a 16- or 17-year-old. I don't get
> this
>
> mindset, either. On the other hand, if the fully developed girl is 12
> or 13
>
> (some girls start very early, I did), then she should be considered
>
> off-limits sexually.
>
> > But then, you say this is was in a casino, so they would have had to
> be at
>
> > least 18 or 21, depending on the local laws
>
> *That's what I was thinking, too. At 18+ a revealing outfit is fine, if
>
> that's what the young woman chooses to wear.
>
> D.
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

LOL!  Good idea :>)  vivian

--- In faceblind@yahoogroups.com, "Rob" <robcross555@...> wrote:
>
> Hey V, there's a way you can get around not being able to tell if people are
angry or arguing with you. Knowing you have trouble with that, when people seem
to be arguing or angry, consciously think about how it sometimes seems to you
that people are arguing when they aren't. Remember that time with your friend
and his wife, and assume that you're perceiving it wrong.
>
> Rob
>
>
> --- In faceblind@yahoogroups.com, "vcreek2002" <vcreek2002@> wrote:
> >
> > Wow,  Sometimes it just hits me over the head how very difficult any
communication is.
> >
> > My husband, as you can tell, is from a rather different background than I
am.
> >
> > After 35 years, I am frequently unable to discern if some people are arguing
or not of if they are angry or not.
> >
> > Recently, I asked!  I just asked his best friend and his wife if they were
angry and having an argument.  I explained that after all of these years, I just
do not know!  They both laughed and said, "No, we are not angry and this isn't
an argument!"
> >
> > The problem for me, as I just posted, is that the raised voices, shouting,
what appears to me to be arguing, etc. makes me VERY anxious and then VERY
angry--especially when it is directed at me.  Sometimes, people ARE angry at me
and it is an argument and sometimes they aren't angry and it isn't an argument
and I lump it all together.
> >
> > And, then I have a temper tantrum. And, then I shout and scream and argue. 
Then, I feel horrible.  Everyone is angry at me.  I worry my husband will lose
his friends on the one hand.  And, on the other hand, I just cannot go thru life
being screamed and yelled at.  (They do also scream and yell when they are angry
as well as when they aren't!)
> >
> > It is amazing to me that we all get along as well as we do--face blindness,
autism, Asberger's, culture, and all.
> >
> > V
> >
>

Oh gosh....ADHD....LOL....it never occurred to me..and after
34 years of marrage and both my son and daughter, now adults,
having it big time. I recognized and worked at helping them get
around and live with it growing up, but never once thought about
it being the basis for my husbands problem.

I wasn't talking about abuse eather...but his own very verbal expression
of frustraition, anger, anxiety whenever he does any task. If he bumps
into a doorway when going through it, for him its a very big annyance.
If
I do..I just laugh at myself for being clumsey. But, he can't seem to
laugh
at himself. Maybe, seeing it now in hindsight with the idea of
AHDH....I see
its more that he has had little success in doing home projects,
etc...and
always runs into trouble, or gives up, and approaches them all with
the preconcieved idea that he will fail, or an unreasonable idea that
he will succeed
without thinking it all out.

The door I mentioned...could have as easily been kicked and punched in
frustraition
when the knob wasn't going in right.... but, in one perticular case I
meant literraly,
that as he tried and tried to put in that darn doornob....tee hee..he
slowly wittled
away the nob oepning in the door til that whole area didn't exist...and
he had to
slap over the arera a piece of  plywood, to then try again to put the
door nob in... Of course,
with is carelessness..again not thinking before acting, the door got
chicped, and knicked
to heck...and it was the french door leading to my dinning room and
original to my house which
is about a hundred years old..so you see why I find it frustrating...
Why he does so is
that he couldn't get the darn doornob on in five minutes, which is
about what he feels all
jobs should be finished in....Yes, ADHD sure would explain a whole
whole lot....LOL....
He can't stand any job that takes more than five minutes to complete
and grows very
frustreaited wanting to quit or move on... again, the main reason he
runs into trouble is
that ne doesn't plan them all out from beginning to end with logical
steps.

Marcy

-----Original Message-----
From: vcreek2002 <vcreek2002@...>
To: faceblind@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sun, Nov 15, 2009 8:00 pm
Subject: [faceblind] Re: Communication ideas






























Marcy, I am glad that you enjoyed my description of my interaction with
my husband!  I received Joni's personal note and was afraid that I had
caused some concern here.  I did mean it to be humorous and do want to
make clear that he is not abusive and I am not in any trouble at all.



[Also, the reason that I talked about the young ladies (late teens,
early twenties :>) dressed as prostitutes was not to discus the pros
and cons of public sexuality but to discuss how I handled my
frustration with my friend who kept bating me all evening.  I
considered that communication was an appropriate topic for this group.
I was trying to think about ways of handling conflict better. This was
a situation I handled poorly.]



I wonder if your husband has Attention Deficit Disorder?  My husband
gets frustrated rather easily, too.  His shouting is mostly about the
fact that he lost his keys or his glasses or his laptap, again.  And,
he doesn't project out the consequences of his actions or a sequence of
events very well, either.  He does not have very good manual dexterity
and gets very frustrated by that.  And, he has poor visual-spatial
skills so his frustration levels are really high.  He is very
intelligent and very good at his profession.  But, does not do well in
the physical world :>)



[We sound like a "train wreck!"  LOL!]



The most common situation being that he puts something we need weekly
in the back of the closet behind heavy objects that we only need
yearly!  So, I have to move the heavy object to get to the object that
we need--because he won't :>)  arrgh!



I admit that I do get rather panicked about disagreements turning into
arguments and I am rather overly sensitive.



I like discussion a lot but do not like personal disagreement.



Vivian



--- In faceblind@yahoogroups.com, Marcyshamb@... wrote:

>

> Tee Hee....I 'enjoyed' your discription of interaction with your

> husband.

> Let me share mine....again, laughing, but with also a bit of

> frustration.

>

> I don't like shouting eather, or 'arguing/fighting' while I really

> enjoy a

> discussion/exchange of ideas. And I don't care if whoever I am talking

> with has a different or opposing idea from me. Its just enjoyable to

> have

> the discussion.

>

> ON the other hand I find that my sister in law believes that any

> discussion

> where there is dissagreement is a fight... so anything contraversal
or

> of

> any meaning besides how the weather was is off limits. Her husband
loves

> to 'debate/discuss/explore' many topics, and can be demeaning while

> doing

> it. I can see the bit of put down for disagreeing, but at the same
time

> see the

> grin rather than anger or raised voice in him as we discuss..so I

> really enjoy

> discussions with him on many topics.  Meanwhile while we are
discussing

> the

> war, politics, the economy, gender roles, and so forth his wife is

> panicking, while

> Her husband and I are completly enjoying the exchange of ideas.
Neather

> of

> us see it as a fight or argument... I see it as an exchange of ideas,

> ahd he

> as that but with a bit of arrogance on his part thrown in.

>

> Now to my husband... he tends to get very upset, angry, frustrated
very

> easily many times a day. NO matter the task..weather driving, taking
out

> the trash, or what ever, if the slightest thing is out of wack or
goes

> wrong

> he just can't deal with it and starts complainiing, shouting,
gripping,

> etc.  Every

> task he approaches is like this so you can well emagine that he
doesn't

> enjoy

> things a whole lot other than leasure things like music and

> television/movies.

>

> The sequence thing... I don't have a name for it...he's never been

> 'tested' or

> diagonsed, but he can't seem to forsee consequences..can't think out
a

> senereo

> or step by step solution and its results. Fot that reason he
constantly

> makes

> mistakes... Its very frustraiting for me.  And, as much as he gets

> upset at the slighest

> hurdle/problem, once the deed is done or project finished he can't
take

> responsibility

> for it.

>

> If he decides to put a doornob in a door, by the time the doornob is
in

> there is little left of the

> door. And, on the one hand, the 'door looks just fine' and on the
other

> 'its everyone and everything elses fault for its demise'.  He didn't

> start out to distroy the door. The aim was to

> put a doornob in.

>

> On arguing.... as much as he tends to let off steam when doinhurdg
any

> project, even just driving...

> if you challenge him by trying to reason, with calm voice, with his

> irritation and excitement

> over the silliest and simpliest  hurdles... he thinks he is being

> fought with or attacked...

>

> Any diagnosis for him...and solutions for dealing with it....by him
and

> me?

>

> I am rather the oppposite in that regard...I consider discussion just

> that and not

> argjment, even if the other person is mocking/laughing at my
position.

> For ti was just

> a good exchange of ideas... I plan all steps when doing a project,
and

> if something

> goes wrong I laugh, and take responsibility...figuring, mistakes

> happen, and then figure

> how to fix the problem...and enjoy tasks, work of any kind...

> shoveling, dishes, cleaning,

> to me is simply a task that gives one a feeling of acomplishiment in

> doing.   Possibly I

> have some sort of name to my 'condition' too..in enjoying work and

> discussion.  As much

> as I think my husbands approach to life isn't normal, positive or

> healthy for him...I wonder

> if my reverse isn't, if not unhealthy for me, at least abnormal?

>

> Marcy

>

> Marcy

>

>

> -----Original Message-----

> From: vcreek2002 <vcreek2002@...>

> To: faceblind@yahoogroups.com

> Sent: Sat, Nov 14, 2009 10:56 am

> Subject: [faceblind] Re: Communication ideas

>



> Hi All,

>

>

>

> Warning:  Some slightly wry humor that may not be obvious :>)

>

>

>

> I think these guidelines would work best amongst a group of intimates

> who are all using them?  Is that how they were intended?

>

>

>

> My husband and I differ tremendously in how we deal with conflict and

> emotion.  I looked at my watch once at the point a conflict arose.
It

> was less than 3 minutes when he said that he was tired of endless

> emotional upheaval and endless haranguing from me :>)  I, of course,

> would see this as a problem solving discussion that was not very

> emotional and believe that it could easily take hours if not days or

> weeks to solve critical relationship problems!  He needs a VACATION

> after 3 minutes of what he perceives as an emotional storm.  In fact,

> he needs so many vacations, that we cannot get any problem solving

> done. An emotional storm to him, BTW, is when he sees himself as
being

> criticized which is every time there is any kind of problem :>)

>

>

>

> On the other hand, VENTING is a good thing in his view of the

> world--but not in mine. My heart pounds when people vent if it
involves

> shouting or ranting and raving. He thinks that as long as no one is

> getting hurt, screaming, yelling, ranting, and raving (about the TV,

> the stereo, the computer, etc.) are perfectly acceptable.  He even

> thinks that voices raised in disagreement are acceptable--as long as
it

> is not MY voice being raised at HIM in disagreement.  So, everyone
can

> raise their voices at everyone and everything else EXCEPT I cannot

> raise my voice at him--I believe that is the rule. In fact, he
believes

> that my view of life (that people should not scream and shout during

> disagreements) is shallow--unless he is being screamed and shouted
at.

> :>)

>

>

>

> Asking for an EXPLANATION is a great idea--as long as the other
person

> doesn't see it as a attack in disguise.  Right now I am reviewing a

> project where mistakes were made and explanations are needed and I
have

> not come up with a way of finding out why decisions were made that is

> not accusatory!

>

>

>

> Actually, sometimes just, "Tell me more about what happened," would

> work.  Or, "Tell me more about what you think about that."

>

>

>

> I really need to as for explanations more often and argue less.

> Recently, a friend was telling me that he whole-heartedly approved of

> all of the young girls who were dressed up for Halloween in utterly

> degrading prostitute costumes (we were at a casino)--I don't mean
cute,

> revealing, sexy, and somewhat provocative costumes.  We were seeing

> girls in costumes that we nauseating.

>

>

>

> I spent all evening arguing with him.  Of course, he just wanted to

> rattle my chain.  Why didn't I just stop arguing and ask him to give
me

> an explanation of why he found 19 year old girls dressed as
prostitutes

> so charming!  Why don't I do this a LOT more often in life!?!

>

>

>

> BTW, my husband watches some TV shows in which all of the characters

> are the same age and all have symmetrical attractive face, are thin,

> dress fashionably, and change their hair color frequently!  They also

> change partners frequently.  I really don't see how their parents can

> tell them apart!  :>)

>

>

>

> Vivian

>

>

>

> --- In faceblind@yahoogroups.com, Bonnie <orebon@> wrote:

>

> >

>

> > Among people with Asperger's is a condition known as discalculia. In

....

I have not been offended by anything that anyone has said. My suggestion is just
general.


Shae
(Sent from my iPhone)

On Nov 15, 2009, at 8:03 PM, "vcreek2002" <vcreek2002@...> wrote:

Hi Shae,

I was trying to address communication and not sexuality :>) I was using the
example of the discussion about how young women were dressed on Halloween.

A friend provoked my all evening and I handled it poorly.

This was not meant to be a discussion of the definition of "young girls" (they
were "young girls" relative to me :>) nor of public attire.

See, communication really is difficult!

Vivian

--- In faceblind@yahoogroups.com, Shae <shaeleighland@...> wrote:
>
> With all due respect to everyone, I think this has gotten off topic enough
that perhaps the discussion should be taking part outside the list/group.
>
>
> Shae
> (Sent from my iPhone)
>
> On Nov 15, 2009, at 1:35 PM, Marcyshamb@... wrote:
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Delila <watertiger13@...>
> To: faceblind@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Sun, Nov 15, 2009 1:07 pm
> Subject: Re: [faceblind] Re: Communication ideas
>
> ----- Original Message -----
>
> From: "Joni DaNerd" <jonipinkney@...>
>
> >
>
> > Sorry, but I see no humor, wry or otherwise, in the first few
> paragraphs
>
> > of your message, and I am writing to you privately about this.
>
> *Hmm, then why am I reading this here? :)
>
> >
>
> > As for the second part, young girls dressed as prostitutes, how young
> are
>
> > we talking here? (I often find the term "young girl" confusing, as
> "young
>
> > boy" would generally refer to a male child under age 10 or so; while
>
> > "young girl" may refer to child, or to a woman under 30 or so.)
>
> *I have a problem with that terminology, too. Like you I consider a
> 'young
>
> girl' to be a young female child. Oh well...
>
> > If the "young girls" are pre-pubescent, this is definitely sick and
> wrong,
>
> > as it is taboo in our society and most western societies to attach
> sexual
>
> > significance to children who have not yet attained puberty.
>
> *Here in the US they do so even if they're fully developed. They
> consider a
>
> guy a pedophile if he has sex with a 16- or 17-year-old. I don't get
> this
>
> mindset, either. On the other hand, if the fully developed girl is 12
> or 13
>
> (some girls start very early, I did), then she should be considered
>
> off-limits sexually.
>
> > But then, you say this is was in a casino, so they would have had to
> be at
>
> > least 18 or 21, depending on the local laws
>
> *That's what I was thinking, too. At 18+ a revealing outfit is fine, if
>
> that's what the young woman chooses to wear.
>
> D.
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Joni said:
 
"Asking for information can be as simple and straightforward as, "Excuse me,"
followed by questions such as, Are you angry at each other? Are you fighting?
Are you serious?
"
 
This is what I meant by validating.  This is hard to do with strangers or
acquaintances,but the communication protocols we set up were for intimate
family.
 
So now when my wife talks quickly or loudly, I can stop her and say: Validate:
Are you angry with me?
 
This is stopped so many arguments that might have escalated.  Most of my close
friends also know that I can not read emotions from faces, so I feel comfortable
asking them: excuse me, are you fighting? are you mad at me?
 
but "Validate" is just a shorthand for "I'm faceblind, I don't understand
emotions, and I need to know what you are feeling..."




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hello everyone,

My name is Frances McInnis, and I'm a freelance journalist in New York, and
Master's student at Columbia nviersity Graduate School of Journalism. I'm
writing a long feature piece on self-portraits and the images we have of
ourselves and would really like to speak with someone who has struggled with
prosopagnosia.

If you would be interested in speaking with me, or have any ideas about how
to find people in the New York City area, please  email me at
fkm2105@..., or call me anytime at 646-645-7956.

Thanks very much for your help,
Frances McInis


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sounds to me like some sort of ADHD complicated with anxiety.  For the latter,
exercises in breathing and mindfulness helps.  Yoga, if it's not against your
religion, is a classic treatment for this.  If you're strict Christians and Yoga
is out of the question, centering prayer does the same thing.

As for ADHD, I don't know enough about that to suggest how to cope with a
husband who may have undiagnosed and untreated ADHD.  However, if your kids are
being treated for ADHD, some of the treatments for them may help him as well. 
No, I'm not talking about raiding the kids' meds; I'm suggesting that some of
the other things such as CBT (congnitive behavioral therapy) and DBT (dialectic
behavior therapy) may help if applied in principle, in a friendly and informal
context.

The most important thing you can remember here is, you cannot change others'
behavior; you can change only your response to other's behavior.  If a partner
blows up and starts cursing and screaming, you can (1) behave in ways that
aggrivate the situation, or (2) behave in ways that help the situation.  For
(1), start screaming and cursing also, or become passive aggressive, cave in and
give him what he wants (thus rewarding the unwanted behavior), etc.  For (2),
step back a bit, calm yourself with breathing and mindfulness exercises, speak
in a low, calm voice and talk him through the problem, remove yourself from the
situation until he calms down, etc.


> Now to my husband... he tends to get very upset, angry, frustrated very
> easily many times a day. NO matter the task..weather driving, taking out
> the trash, or what ever, if the slightest thing is out of wack or goes
> wrong
> he just can't deal with it and starts complainiing, shouting, gripping,
> etc.  Every
> task he approaches is like this so you can well emagine that he doesn't
> enjoy
> things a whole lot other than leasure things like music and
> television/movies.
>
> The sequence thing... I don't have a name for it...he's never been
> 'tested' or
> diagonsed, but he can't seem to forsee consequences..can't think out a
> senereo
> or step by step solution and its results. Fot that reason he constantly
> makes
> mistakes... Its very frustraiting for me.  And, as much as he gets
> upset at the slighest
> hurdle/problem, once the deed is done or project finished he can't take
> responsibility
> for it.
>
> If he decides to put a doornob in a door, by the time the doornob is in
> there is little left of the
> door. And, on the one hand, the 'door looks just fine' and on the other
> 'its everyone and everything elses fault for its demise'.  He didn't
> start out to distroy the door. The aim was to
> put a doornob in.
>
> On arguing.... as much as he tends to let off steam when doinhurdg any
> project, even just driving...
> if you challenge him by trying to reason, with calm voice, with his
> irritation and excitement
> over the silliest and simpliest  hurdles... he thinks he is being
> fought with or attacked...
>
> Any diagnosis for him...and solutions for dealing with it....by him and
> me?
>

Hi,


I was a stay at home mom and part time working mom once the kids came
along. It meant less money in the house and careful budjet, but I was
able
to focus entirely on the kids. Before school age they were healthy,
active
and positive/loving and I had no clue that they had ADHD.

Once in school teachers informed me that they couldn't fucus or sit
still..and
were literally rolling all over their chairs and desks... They
suggested a core
evaluation and we went that route. The findings came back that they
were
both delightful to interview/interact with, positive, and above normal
intellegence,
and although having some areas that were not up to par, overall they
were, again,
way above...so, NO special needs.

Teachers wanted me to put them on medication...but, I was against it...
so, I decided
to focus in on their learning to live with it, make up for it with
tricks, ways that helped
them, and focus in on what they did well.... By that I mean keep them
positive, and
tell them they were actually lucky to have such a special 'gift' even
while it could and
did cause them problems, especially when they had to be insituations
where they
had to sit still.


I had seen a number of children also with ADHD...and how they were
handled..sometimes
the case that there were other negative underlying issues and at other
times simply that
parents were frustraited, as were peers and teachers with the inability
of the children to
conform to the norm.  I felt that they were feeding into the
ADHD...making it worse by
making the children have low self esteem abou themselves and their
school, etc experience.
IT was no excuse, having ADHD, for being impolite and misbehaving.
Another words inability
to sit still should not translate into taking this out on others and
the teachers, showing disrespect,
and disobeying.  SO, I kept them positive, with good self image, and
let them know what was
not acceptable in behavior and attitude.

I told them they were the energizing bunny...and in many situations it
actually helped them as when others pooped out quickly they just kept
on going... So, I put them in positive structured
environments and experiences....swim lessons, figure skate lessons,
dancing, gymnastics, boating,
basketball, various craft arts...drawing, painting, work with clay, and
so forth... Summer day camp,
etc.... And daily play at home...so they got to really focus all that
energy, the inibality to sit still,
in a lot of positive rewarding directions...

For school, I did different things with the two of them...Kept son in
school til sixth grade,,which was not a good idea, it a public school,
and he not in speacial ed or needs, he was failing in all topics
and although polite, his teacher hated him and let me and him know it.
Pulled him out and home schooled him, bringing him up to date subject
wise, and then enrolling him in a school where he could take topics
that he excelled in...for him it was computers...and it turned out he
was some sort of protergie(sp).... hired by a computer company he is a
boss and makes eighty thousand a year now...

Daughter, I stayed away from the public school system and put her in a
tiny private school while volunteering at that school...Also applied to
home school her and she and I spend part of the time
in the school and her in a class with others, only seven children in
the class, and the rest of time home one on one home schooling..with me
using the same curriculum(sp), work as the class...bringing it all back
and forth... She excelled and was tested in subjects a couple years
ahead of the norm....but, average for that tiny school as all the
children there were studious.
Exposing her to all 'geeks' who aspired to do their best helped too....
and the one on one from
me helped me to see her strengths and weaknesses and devise ways to
cope with them...for
one thing we practiced her focusing all her energy/need to be in
constant movement into her toes and fingers.....and inside her shoe,
with no one  knowing she would wiggle those toes like mad
while learning to separate those toes from the rest of herself allowing
her to focus and stay still
otherwise. Sometimes she would keep both hands on her lap, and spin the
fingers around each other, again unnoticed by anyone else, while then
able to keep the rest of her body relatively still
and the mind focused. We had started out with shaking and swaying a
foot, and then worked it down to just fingers and toes.

When she was ready for high school put her in same school son had gone
to.  She
graduated sixth in the school and first in her area of study...Health
Occupations..
  From there she went into the health field working while attending
nursing school,
and graduated from nursing school with a 4/0 and top in class...

Now working as a Nurse, she continues her studies, as she wants to be a
more
higher up, specialized nurse...  Nursing really suited her wheras a
desk job never
would have.... and that is the same with my son...although he does work
in
an office...his special gift in computers, made it possible for him to
work in
various capacities including inventing some security software among
others.

Now, my husband...the bread winner all those years of raising
children...he put
in a whole lot of hours, and when coming home, overtired, ate, watched
TV
and slept. I ran the house and oversaw our budjet, appointments, and
every
other aspect. Again, when he attempted to do any projects...it was as I
described.
I honestly had no clue, but now after discussion here, I can see that
he really
did have it all along. Its just that I wasn't there, when he was in
school, to see
it, and didn't get to raise him from birth...focus in on him as he was
developing,
and finding his attitude so negative in comparison to our kids...never
put two and
two together.

At our ages I am not sure, after a set in his ways lifetime of this,
just how to
help him. I know that now that I realize what might be the issue I will
be thinking
of that now every time he tries something and gets all worked up. I
still don't know
how, though, to deal with it as I have already tried to tell him
calmly, that his
approach and behavior isn't necessary...and tried to get him to calm
down,
not get so darn self concious of the 'failure and difficulty', and try
to think before
he acts... OF course again, not realizing he actually had ADHD and
couldn't under
the circumstances.

Marcy


-----Original Message-----
From: Joni DaNerd <jonipinkney@...>
To: faceblind@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Mon, Nov 16, 2009 12:16 pm
Subject: [faceblind] Re: Communication ideas






























Sounds to me like some sort of ADHD complicated with anxiety.  For the
latter, exercises in breathing and mindfulness helps.  Yoga, if it's
not against your religion, is a classic treatment for this.  If you're
strict Christians and Yoga is out of the question, centering prayer
does the same thing.



As for ADHD, I don't know enough about that to suggest how to cope with
a husband who may have undiagnosed and untreated ADHD.  However, if
your kids are being treated for ADHD, some of the treatments for them
may help him as well.  No, I'm not talking about raiding the kids'
meds; I'm suggesting that some of the other things such as CBT
(congnitive behavioral therapy) and DBT (dialectic behavior therapy)
may help if applied in principle, in a friendly and informal context.



The most important thing you can remember here is, you cannot change
others' behavior; you can change only your response to other's
behavior.  If a partner blows up and starts cursing and screaming, you
can (1) behave in ways that aggrivate the situation, or (2) behave in
ways that help the situation.  For (1), start screaming and cursing
also, or become passive aggressive, cave in and give him what he wants
(thus rewarding the unwanted behavior), etc.  For (2), step back a bit,
calm yourself with breathing and mindfulness exercises, speak in a low,
calm voice and talk him through the problem, remove yourself from the
situation until he calms down, etc.



> Now to my husband... he tends to get very upset, angry, frustrated
very

> easily many times a day. NO matter the task..weather driving, taking
out

> the trash, or what ever, if the slightest thing is out of wack or
goes

> wrong

> he just can't deal with it and starts complainiing, shouting,
gripping,

> etc.  Every

> task he approaches is like this so you can well emagine that he
doesn't

> enjoy

> things a whole lot other than leasure things like music and

> television/movies.

>

> The sequence thing... I don't have a name for it...he's never been

> 'tested' or

> diagonsed, but he can't seem to forsee consequences..can't think out
a

> senereo

> or step by step solution and its results. Fot that reason he
constantly

> makes

> mistakes... Its very frustraiting for me.  And, as much as he gets

> upset at the slighest

> hurdle/problem, once the deed is done or project finished he can't
take

> responsibility

> for it.

>

> If he decides to put a doornob in a door, by the time the doornob is
in

> there is little left of the

> door. And, on the one hand, the 'door looks just fine' and on the
other

> 'its everyone and everything elses fault for its demise'.  He didn't

> start out to distroy the door. The aim was to

> put a doornob in.

>

> On arguing.... as much as he tends to let off steam when doinhurdg
any

> project, even just driving...

> if you challenge him by trying to reason, with calm voice, with his

> irritation and excitement

> over the silliest and simpliest  hurdles... he thinks he is being

> fought with or attacked...

>

> Any diagnosis for him...and solutions for dealing with it....by him
and

> me?

>

Do any of your children have face blindness?
If yes, how did you teach them to cope?
Or did anyone during your life help you cope with face blindness?

~Bonnie


- - - - -
   I decided
to focus in on their learning to live with it, make up for it with
tricks, ways that helped
them, and focus in on what they did well.... By that I mean keep them
positive, and
tell them they were actually lucky to have such a special 'gift' even
while it could and
did cause them problems, ....

As far as I know I am the only face blind one. And I didn't realize it
til reciently. No one
helped me, and it didn't help that my mother had the opposite
really...really extremly good memory
of names and faces. She could meet someone for five minutes, not see
them for years, and upon
running into them recall the meeting and all its details to them. Used
to really amaze me, and make me think That she was just paying a real
good attention to people while I must not be... or maybe I had a memory
problem while she has a su per memory. She also never met a word she
couldn't
spell and give the meaning of and could do a crossword in minutes. I on
the other hand, couldn't spell to save my life.  She painted in oil,
though, and I did notice that she favored landscapes, lighthouses,
ships and sales, nature, and when she tried to do bodies her faces were
usually very
primitive in comparison to the skill for the rest of the painting.
Still...she could recognize and remember faces extrordinarily.

Kids...never gave me any indication that they had problems in that
area. They did have their
own uique strengths and weaknesses..my sons handwriting has always been
poor.  He hated
reading but for technical stuff.... preferred to create his own
stuff..loving engines and machines
rather than follow directions... never read directions when putting
together something store
bought, and more often created his own stuff....homemade electric
bycicle as a kid...  Was often
having accidents...was clumsy.... and so on..

Daughter, loved people more than posessions and so never went through
the terrible twos
and threes...shared everything and hugged everyone constantly...still,
never stood still.
Had problems in processing styles in education which made early
education difficult as her style of learning was  through reading and
hands on, but in order for them to teach before she
could read they used audio which was her severe handicap in processing
area... still, she
hasn't ever indicated to me any problem with recognizing peoples faces
or remembering
their names. She was, instead, a very people oriented person..who
again, just loved
people and craved them over physcal posessions.  Today, in college
studies and during
ner nursing courses, she used greatly in study and processing the task
of reading the info,
then making up her own cue cards, with detailed drawings on one side
and the writen
detail of what they were or meant on the other...  The process of first
reading, and then
hands on creating the cards, and finally going over and over the cards
is how she
processed and learnt.  She is still a hands on and reading style
learner...and yes, the
inability to sit still still gets to her... at home she stands up for a
break and snack and
bathroom break and in school suffers through them wiggling her toes in
her shoes
and taking considerable notes from the lectures.. She makes cards from
her notes too
once she gets them home as a means of processing/learning and crossing
them over
into long term memory.

I can't tell you how many times my face blindedness, just this week,
month, etc
has caused ME so very much trouble.  Especially with my cancer out of
remission and
back...the extra tests, more dr visits, nurses, etc, and I can't keep
them all strait...
But, knowing now that I have faceblindness helps me forgive myself for
what I thought
was my lack of attention, or lack of giving in enough effort to
remember folks.  How do
I try to get around the face blindness... mentioned before here I look
for any non face clues
and any features of the face that are really out of the ordinary. I
keep in check as much as
I can making as little blunder openly as I can, and finally, I admit
now, at least to some of
my cancer nurses, that I do have face blindness even while not wanting
others to know this
fearing I will be taken advantage ofl. I guess over the years I
developed on my own ways
to maneuver through life even while not knowing the why or what of my
problem.A lot of
the ways probably not developed by folks who are not face blind...they
focusing instead on peoples faces for their main clues. I don't have
face blindness bad. I can recognize my family
and folks I see often in their proper settings. But, with face
blindness, although I don't remember
most folks faces for recognition, I do key in on other facial things,
like often I see intent, feeling,
body language, attitude far more in someone than those who focus
instead on the face features.

Marcy


-----Original Message-----
From: Bonnie <orebon@...>
To: faceblind@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Mon, Nov 16, 2009 8:32 pm
Subject: Re: [faceblind] Re: Communication ideas






























Do any of your children have face blindness?

If yes, how did you teach them to cope?

Or did anyone during your life help you cope with face blindness?



~Bonnie



- - - - -

   I decided

to focus in on their learning to live with it, make up for it with

tricks, ways that helped

them, and focus in on what they did well.... By that I mean keep them

positive, and

tell them they were actually lucky to have such a special 'gift' even

while it could and

did cause them problems, ....

Wow!  You did great with the kids!  It looks like you applied some of the same
principles as CBD and DBT (cognitive behavioral therapy and dialectical
behavioral therapy) just from your own instincts and motherwit!  Way to go!

Applying this stuff to your husband will be more difficult.  Men don't like to
feel small.

--- In faceblind@yahoogroups.com, Marcyshamb@... wrote:
>
> Hi,
>
>
> I was a stay at home mom and part time working mom once the kids came
> along. It meant less money in the house and careful budjet, but I was
> able
> to focus entirely on the kids. Before school age they were healthy,
> active
> and positive/loving and I had no clue that they had ADHD.
>
> Once in school teachers informed me that they couldn't fucus or sit
> still..and
> were literally rolling all over their chairs and desks... They
> suggested a core
> evaluation and we went that route. The findings came back that they
> were
> both delightful to interview/interact with, positive, and above normal
> intellegence,
> and although having some areas that were not up to par, overall they
> were, again,
> way above...so, NO special needs.
>

LOL....never having heard of those two methods or what ever they are,
could you explain them to me....  I hear you saying I applied
them...but no clue as to where...or the part about my husband feeling
small if I try them on him....  Yes, instinct and observation...getting
to know my kids was how I worked...that and trial and error...

Marcy
-----Original Message-----
From: Joni DaNerd <jonipinkney@...>
To: faceblind@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wed, Nov 18, 2009 12:01 am
Subject: [faceblind] Re: Communication ideas






























Wow!  You did great with the kids!  It looks like you applied some of
the same principles as CBD and DBT (cognitive behavioral therapy and
dialectical behavioral therapy) just from your own instincts and
motherwit!  Way to go!



Applying this stuff to your husband will be more difficult.  Men don't
like to feel small.



--- In faceblind@yahoogroups.com, Marcyshamb@... wrote:

>

> Hi,

>

>

> I was a stay at home mom and part time working mom once the kids came

> along. It meant less money in the house and careful budjet, but I was

> able

> to focus entirely on the kids. Before school age they were healthy,

> active

> and positive/loving and I had no clue that they had ADHD.

>

> Once in school teachers informed me that they couldn't fucus or sit

> still..and

> were literally rolling all over their chairs and desks... They

> suggested a core

> evaluation and we went that route. The findings came back that they

> were

> both delightful to interview/interact with, positive, and above
normal

> intellegence,

> and although having some areas that were not up to par, overall they

> were, again,

> way above...so, NO special needs.

>

My internet connection is acting a little flaky this morning so I'll address
each of your questions as a separate post.  That way if the system shuts down I
won't lose too much work.

Cognitive behavioral therapy (CBT) is based on the idea that thought and
behavior influence one another; thus, to change behavior, address the thoughts. 
Unlike many other forms of psychotherapy, it has been experimentally proven to
be effective.  Scientific experiment is simply a systematic application of
observation and analysis, so your own observations and insights into your
family's thoughts, feelings, and behavior may be regarded as a first-stage
scientific experiment.  Thus, you may well stumble upon a few techniques of CBT
on your own.

In your situation, you don't simply punish or reward the child to shape his
behavior, because you know that is dehumanizing and it doesn't work very well. 
So you get into the child's head so to speak, think about what he may be
thinking or feeling that causes him to behave that way, what needs he may have
that he can't express directly so he's trying to meet those needs by what he's
doing or not doing.  Then you make changes from that point of view.

For example, suppose a child is throwing tantrums and the parent or experimenter
wants to get rid of that behavior.  In classical behavior analysis, behavior is
regarded as part of a stimulus - response system.  So the parent or experimenter
would consider: I will not reward this behavior (by giving the child what he is
throwing a tantrum for) or I will punish the behavior (by a scolding, spanking,
electric shock, etc) and the behavior will stop.  However, this doesn't work
very well, and even when it does work the results are often very ugly.  So the
cognitive behavioral approach takes into account that the behavior is not coming
from a black box; instead, it's coming from a person who is thinking as well as
feeling.  Then, address the thoughts because it's a lot easier to change
thoughts than to change feelings or behavior. The thoughts may be something
along the lines of "this child believes he can get what he wants by throwing a
tantrum; after all, this has worked in the past.  Also, right now he is too
physically excited to listen to reason.  So I will take him aside to a quiet
place till he can calm down, then later when he is able to listen I will explain
to him that tantrums are not acceptable, will not get him what he wants, and how
and when he can get what he wants. (for example, earning a reward, waiting for a
birthday, etc.)

For more information please see
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cognitive_behavioral_therapy

For information on DBT and men feeling small, see next posts.

--- In faceblind@yahoogroups.com, Marcyshamb@... wrote:
>
>
>
> LOL....never having heard of those two methods or what ever they are,
> could you explain them to me....  I hear you saying I applied
> them...but no clue as to where...or the part about my husband feeling
> small if I try them on him....  Yes, instinct and observation...getting
> to know my kids was how I worked...that and trial and error...
>
> Marcy
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Joni DaNerd <jonipinkney@...>
> To: faceblind@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Wed, Nov 18, 2009 12:01 am
> Subject: [faceblind] Re: Communication ideas
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Wow!  You did great with the kids!  It looks like you applied some of
> the same principles as CBD and DBT (cognitive behavioral therapy and
> dialectical behavioral therapy) just from your own instincts and
> motherwit!  Way to go!
>
>
>
> Applying this stuff to your husband will be more difficult.  Men don't
> like to feel small.
>
>
>
> --- In faceblind@yahoogroups.com, Marcyshamb@ wrote:
>
> >
>
> > Hi,
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > I was a stay at home mom and part time working mom once the kids came
>
> > along. It meant less money in the house and careful budjet, but I was
>
> > able
>
> > to focus entirely on the kids. Before school age they were healthy,
>
> > active
>
> > and positive/loving and I had no clue that they had ADHD.
>
> >
>
> > Once in school teachers informed me that they couldn't fucus or sit
>
> > still..and
>
> > were literally rolling all over their chairs and desks... They
>
> > suggested a core
>
> > evaluation and we went that route. The findings came back that they
>
> > were
>
> > both delightful to interview/interact with, positive, and above
> normal
>
> > intellegence,
>
> > and although having some areas that were not up to par, overall they
>
> > were, again,
>
> > way above...so, NO special needs.
>
> >
>

DBT (dialectic behavioral therapy) is an offshoot of CBT (cognitive behavioral
therapy), and it is also experimentally proven.  This is important to
understand, because many methods of psychotherapy (including Freud's) are not
experimentally proven. That is, they have not been shown, in repeated systematic
trials, to help anyone any better than placebo or chance.  (This is one reason
why psychotherapy has such a bad reputation; many of its practices are not
scientifically proven, so the public has reason to perceive it as largely
quackery.)

DBT focuses on four skills: mindfulness, interpersonal effetiveness, emotional
regulation, and distress tolorance.  It was originally developed to help people
with borderline personality disorder (BPD; a disorder of behavior and
personality characterized by extreme negative attitudes and self-injurious
behavior).  This in itself is significant, as BPD is one of the most
recalcitrant of all psychological disorders, to the point that many therapists
refuse to treat people with BPD.  It has since been shown to be effective with
many other disorders as well, particularly depression and post traumatic stress
disorder (PTSD.)

The DBT skills of mindfulness, emotion regulation, and distress tolorence allow
a person under the influence of strong negative emotions to regulate the
physical responses to the emotions, thus regulating the emotions and associated
thoughts and behaviors.   The  DBT skill of interpersonal effectiveness allows a
person who has previously known mainly negative human interaction to interact
with other humans in ways which are more pleasant, effective, and productive.

Again, since science is based on observation, you could well have come upon some
of these same ideas and developed some of these same practices by loving and
insightful observation of your family.

For more information please see
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dialectical_behavior_therapy

--- In faceblind@yahoogroups.com, Marcyshamb@... wrote:
>
>
>
> LOL....never having heard of those two methods or what ever they are,
> could you explain them to me....  I hear you saying I applied
> them...but no clue as to where...or the part about my husband feeling
> small if I try them on him....  Yes, instinct and observation...getting
> to know my kids was how I worked...that and trial and error...
>
> Marcy
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Joni DaNerd <jonipinkney@...>
> To: faceblind@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Wed, Nov 18, 2009 12:01 am
> Subject: [faceblind] Re: Communication ideas
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Wow!  You did great with the kids!  It looks like you applied some of
> the same principles as CBD and DBT (cognitive behavioral therapy and
> dialectical behavioral therapy) just from your own instincts and
> motherwit!  Way to go!
>
>
>
> Applying this stuff to your husband will be more difficult.  Men don't
> like to feel small.
>
>

Caution: All of these statements are based on my epxerience and observation of
the human species.  Your mileage may vary.

"men don't like to feel small"

By that I mean, men in this society are raised in a patriarchical culture,
taught from birth that they must be strong and in control.  Part of this
training is that they must not allow anyone else to be in control unless that
other person has proven himself superior in strength, experience, wisdom, etc. 
Preferably, that other person should be male also.  This is the training that
all males in this culture receive along with their pablum.

Freud's theories have never been proven and few people believe them any more. 
However, he is probably correct on a few things, one of them being that a major
fear in males is castration anxiety.  Freud hypothesised that, on the
subconscious level, women have been castrated, and they in turn have the power
to castrate.  Thus, when a man and woman have a disagreement, one of the first
things out of his mouth is some bad name that refers to this fear.  For example,
"ball buster," "castrating b*tch," "she cut me down," etc.  When a man is
unhappy with his wife or his female boss he'll often say "she makes me feel
small," "she treats me like a child," etc.  According to Freud, this is one of
men's biggest (unconscious)fears, that the women in his life have survived
castration and thus has the power to castrate others.

Ironically, it seems to be ok for a man to make a woman feel small.  In fact
some women seem to like this.  Thus, society tolorates men calling women "girl,"
"child," "baby," "the little woman," etc.  It always grates on me a bit when
popular songs and other expressions of popular culture use these terms for grown
women, but it doesn't seem to bother most people the way it would if similar
terms were used for grown men.

So the upshot is, men are afraid of having a woman in control.  This is why in
situations such as the military and coroporate life where sometimes it happens
that a woman is in charge or a woman is doing a man's traditional job, the men
put her to very hard testing to get her to prove herself worthy of being in
control.  Thus the saying, "a woman has to be twice as good to get half as far."

As I said, ll of these statements are based on my experience and observation of
the human species.  Your mileage may vary.

--- In faceblind@yahoogroups.com, Marcyshamb@... wrote:
>
>
>
> LOL....never having heard of those two methods or what ever they are,
> could you explain them to me....  I hear you saying I applied
> them...but no clue as to where...or the part about my husband feeling
> small if I try them on him....  Yes, instinct and observation...getting
> to know my kids was how I worked...that and trial and error...
>
> Marcy
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Joni DaNerd <jonipinkney@...>
> To: faceblind@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Wed, Nov 18, 2009 12:01 am
> Subject: [faceblind] Re: Communication ideas
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Wow!  You did great with the kids!  It looks like you applied some of
> the same principles as CBD and DBT (cognitive behavioral therapy and
> dialectical behavioral therapy) just from your own instincts and
> motherwit!  Way to go!
>
>
>
> Applying this stuff to your husband will be more difficult.  Men don't
> like to feel small.
>
>
>
> --- In faceblind@yahoogroups.com, Marcyshamb@ wrote:
>
> >
>
> > Hi,
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > I was a stay at home mom and part time working mom once the kids came
>
> > along. It meant less money in the house and careful budjet, but I was
>
> > able
>
> > to focus entirely on the kids. Before school age they were healthy,
>
> > active
>
> > and positive/loving and I had no clue that they had ADHD.
>
> >
>
> > Once in school teachers informed me that they couldn't fucus or sit
>
> > still..and
>
> > were literally rolling all over their chairs and desks... They
>
> > suggested a core
>
> > evaluation and we went that route. The findings came back that they
>
> > were
>
> > both delightful to interview/interact with, positive, and above
> normal
>
> > intellegence,
>
> > and although having some areas that were not up to par, overall they
>
> > were, again,
>
> > way above...so, NO special needs.
>
> >
>

Thank you for the explanations and links. I really appreciate the info.
I am sure
it will all help me with  him... but, honestly, I have to read through
them several
more times to get what its all saying. I hope that each time I read
through I get
more and more til I fully understand.

To be honest, all these years I have not known whats wrong with my
husband,
and when he worked and sleeped mainly, it was only an issue a small
part of his
days. But, now that he is disabled/retired, its a 24/7 issue... and it
both frustraits
and sometimes angers me while at the same time I feel so sorry for him.

I doubt he has this borderline problem...certainly not suicidal,
etc...but I do believe
he has ADHD... I think also that he has much negative attitude towards
life.. the cup
for him is always half empty...and he always assumes the worse... the
opposite of the
Train that says I think I can...he always approaches any task with a
list of what he thinks
he can't, or I can't...etc...  We are such opposites...Me willing to
tackle anything, but
with detailed planning, and a belief that I can, and should any
problems arise, they will
be solvable, or some solution found that I can live with.

He will enter a bank...we get up to the window, and then for all
including the casier to
hear turn to me and say....THEY are not going to want to cash this for
me or for you....
My thought is usually...and why wouldn't they...and why would he put
suspiciion in their
mind that there could be something wrong with a check we had...

Try as I have to figure out all that is behind this need to declare
this at the window...
I think its a combination of expecting an obsticle, while at the same
time being
afraid to have to confront it.. by saying ahead for them to hear that
they won't cash it,
he absolves himself from having to stand before the window 'begging'
for them to cash
the check...

This is all so ..how to say it....so not me.  I don't consider
presenting a check to a
cashier as begging, but as expecting them to do what they do...and me
do what I
do in the circumstance...cash a check...period.... I expect it to be
cashed, and should
there arise a problem...I then ask the cashier how or what we can do to
rectify it...
although I really haven't had a problem in all these years cashing a
check...that is my
attitude..  We see the same event/situation...cashing a check at a bank
far far differently..

And so, in stores shopping, or any situation he approaches the
task/event the same...I expect
service, answers, a sale, and he expects ridicule and rejection by the
person handeling us....
I am polite while he informs me for them to hear how he thinks they
wiill react to my approaching
them for service of any kind...

Anyway, I appreciate the info... again, now to just figure out
completly what its all saying...LOL

Marcy


-----Original Message-----
From: Joni DaNerd <jonipinkney@...>
To: faceblind@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wed, Nov 18, 2009 12:37 pm
Subject: [faceblind] Re: Communication ideas





DBT (dialectic behavioral therapy) is an offshoot of CBT (cognitive
behavioral therapy), and it is also experimentally proven.  This is
important to understand, because many methods of psychotherapy
(including Freud's) are not experimentally proven. That is, they have
not been shown, in repeated systematic trials, to help anyone any
better than placebo or chance.  (This is one reason why psychotherapy
has such a bad reputation; many of its practices are not scientifically
proven, so the public has reason to perceive it as largely quackery.)

DBT focuses on four skills: mindfulness, interpersonal effetiveness,
emotional regulation, and distress tolorance.  It was originally
developed to help people with borderline personality disorder (BPD; a
disorder of behavior and personality characterized by extreme negative
attitudes and self-injurious behavior).  This in itself is significant,
as BPD is one of the most recalcitrant of all psychological disorders,
to the point that many therapists refuse to treat people with BPD.  It
has since been shown to be effective with many other disorders as well,
particularly depression and post traumatic stress disorder (PTSD.)

The DBT skills of mindfulness, emotion regulation, and distress
tolorence allow a person under the influence of strong negative
emotions to regulate the physical responses to the emotions, thus
regulating the emotions and associated thoughts and behaviors.   The
DBT skill of interpersonal effectiveness allows a person who has
previously known mainly negative human interaction to interact with
other humans in ways which are more pleasant, effective, and productive.

Again, since science is based on observation, you could well have come
upon some of these same ideas and developed some of these same
practices by loving and insightful observation of your family.

For more information please see
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dialectical_behavior_therapy

--- In faceblind@yahoogroups.com, Marcyshamb@... wrote:
>
>
>
> LOL....never having heard of those two methods or what ever they are,
> could you explain them to me....  I hear you saying I applied
> them...but no clue as to where...or the part about my husband feeling
> small if I try them on him....  Yes, instinct and
observation...getting
> to know my kids was how I worked...that and trial and error...
>
> Marcy
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Joni DaNerd <jonipinkney@...>
> To: faceblind@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Wed, Nov 18, 2009 12:01 am
> Subject: [faceblind] Re: Communication ideas
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Wow!  You did great with the kids!  It looks like you applied some of
> the same principles as CBD and DBT (cognitive behavioral therapy and
> dialectical behavioral therapy) just from your own instincts and
> motherwit!  Way to go!
>
>
>
> Applying this stuff to your husband will be more difficult.  Men
don't
> like to feel small.
>
>

Oh, I agree and have experienced and observed the very same...but, my
attitudes on
these are somewhat of a paradox, hailing from my own upbringing and
experiences.

As a child I had to be an adult, while at the same time really enjoying
being a child...
To explain better my mom was ill....and in some ways I had her
attention as a child
as no other child had 24/7 but in other ways, I had to be the adult. I
cooked, cleaned,
managed the budget, did the shopping, and worrying...

So I became a forceful young lady used to being mom, dad and head of
house from
early on. In the workforce I was both a femanine women, always in
dresses and matched
  from head to toe, respectful of the mans position, polite as all heck,
but doing everything
the men did..and I was a leader.. NO matter the job always put a lot
into it and ended up
in charge.

Husband and I met on the job. He the second youngest of eight kids, a
mama boy...
and Mama was a very strong willed woman, traditional as all heck, but
at the same time
raising the eight children on her own, working hard, then home and
strict and controlling...

I think husband was looking for a mama replacement in a wife, and I was
used to being in
charge..unofficially as officially that didn't exist in gender roles
then... So we met, he saw
how my home life was....and we dated for couple years and then
married....

After marrage we both continued to include our moms and families in our
daily life..right on
up til they died...us now missing them very much... Throughout the
marrage I took care of
my mom while his mom dominated him and our marrage... Within our
marrage he liked to
'be in charge' in beating upon the breasts while leaving running of the
house, raising the
kids, making real decisions to me.  And so, he worked hard...real hard,
and at home slept
and watched TV.... first to the table at dinner he was expected to take
the best or his
pick of all before anyone else reached for their portion. That was the
male dominated side
of mealtime...the other side was that I always made ample food and more
like a restaurant
individually what eveyrone liked.... so it was no surprised when he
reached for what he liked
leaving the items others preferred to them... Still, the atmosphere of
man rules his castle
was there while in reality I ruled and ran things.

I liked it like that as it was what I grew up with..I got to be in
charge and still be a woman.
I had no problems being the lady of the house and thrived/relished in
that title of woman of
the house and stay at home mom. I considered myself having the best of
both worlds...
Husband, on the other hand, even while wanting me to be his dominationg
mom, and he
only beating the breasts with us pretending he was in charge, both
wanted that situation as
its what he grew up with and was comfortable with and at the same time
found his ego
shattered by my being in charge. IT did strike out at his ego as a
man..head of house...master.

My attitude towards gender roles... again a paradox. I think that the
womans lib movement
of the sixties on up to today went far too far. These woman burnt their
bras and wanted to
be men. I believe we can be equal, have rights, and still be
women...and enjoy all there is in
being a woman... I want my doors opened. I want men to let me go first,
offer to carry
my bundles. I expect my husband to carry in the groceries, and any
other bundles, and take
out the trash.

I honesty and believe justifyably feel sorry for both men and women
today in the area of gender role and what it has done to them and
society as a whole. From the issues of working verses
staing at home, who is 'master of the house' and so forth.... things
have gone too far in some
areas and not far enough in others. In the end men are still men and
women are still women...
maybe equal in rights but we are not the same.... if so, if we were
than women and men could
both impregnate and carry the child as well as nourish naturally.
There are reasons that men and
women assumed the roles they did over the tens of centuries.  That we
have devised an economy
today that provides for men and women to do the same jobs ecconomically
doesn't change the
hard wiring or evolutionary changes in men and women, nor the culture
man has developed.

Men, morso than women, are lost today...they don't know their
role...and women are overburdened, trying to assume far too many roles
at once...  My opinion...

Marcy


-----Original Message-----
From: Joni DaNerd <jonipinkney@...>
To: faceblind@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wed, Nov 18, 2009 4:13 pm
Subject: [faceblind] Re: Communication ideas






Caution: All of these statements are based on my epxerience and
observation of the human species.  Your mileage may vary.

"men don't like to feel small"

By that I mean, men in this society are raised in a patriarchical
culture, taught from birth that they must be strong and in control.
Part of this training is that they must not allow anyone else to be in
control unless that other person has proven himself superior in
strength, experience, wisdom, etc.  Preferably, that other person
should be male also.  This is the training that all males in this
culture receive along with their pablum.

Freud's theories have never been proven and few people believe them any
more.  However, he is probably correct on a few things, one of them
being that a major fear in males is castration anxiety.  Freud
hypothesised that, on the subconscious level, women have been
castrated, and they in turn have the power to castrate.  Thus, when a
man and woman have a disagreement, one of the first things out of his
mouth is some bad name that refers to this fear.  For example, "ball
buster," "castrating b*tch," "she cut me down," etc.  When a man is
unhappy with his wife or his female boss he'll often say "she makes me
feel small," "she treats me like a child," etc.  According to Freud,
this is one of men's biggest (unconscious)fears, that the women in his
life have survived castration and thus has the power to castrate
others.

Ironically, it seems to be ok for a man to make a woman feel small.  In
fact some women seem to like this.  Thus, society tolorates men calling
women "girl," "child," "baby," "the little woman," etc.  It always
grates on me a bit when popular songs and other expressions of popular
culture use these terms for grown women, but it doesn't seem to bother
most people the way it would if similar terms were used for grown men.

So the upshot is, men are afraid of having a woman in control.  This is
why in situations such as the military and coroporate life where
sometimes it happens that a woman is in charge or a woman is doing a
man's traditional job, the men put her to very hard testing to get her
to prove herself worthy of being in control.  Thus the saying, "a woman
has to be twice as good to get half as far."

As I said, ll of these statements are based on my experience and
observation of the human species.  Your mileage may vary.

--- In faceblind@yahoogroups.com, Marcyshamb@... wrote:
>
>
>
> LOL....never having heard of those two methods or what ever they are,
> could you explain them to me....  I hear you saying I applied
> them...but no clue as to where...or the part about my husband feeling
> small if I try them on him....  Yes, instinct and
observation...getting
> to know my kids was how I worked...that and trial and error...
>
> Marcy
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Joni DaNerd <jonipinkney@...>
> To: faceblind@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Wed, Nov 18, 2009 12:01 am
> Subject: [faceblind] Re: Communication ideas
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Wow!  You did great with the kids!  It looks like you applied some of
> the same principles as CBD and DBT (cognitive behavioral therapy and
> dialectical behavioral therapy) just from your own instincts and
> motherwit!  Way to go!
>
>
>
> Applying this stuff to your husband will be more difficult.  Men
don't
> like to feel small.
>
>
>
> --- In faceblind@yahoogroups.com, Marcyshamb@ wrote:
>
> >
>
> > Hi,
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > I was a stay at home mom and part time working mom once the kids
came
>
> > along. It meant less money in the house and careful budjet, but I
was
>
> > able
>
> > to focus entirely on the kids. Before school age they were healthy,
>
> > active
>
> > and positive/loving and I had no clue that they had ADHD.
>
> >
>
> > Once in school teachers informed me that they couldn't fucus or sit
>
> > still..and
>
> > were literally rolling all over their chairs and desks... They
>
> > suggested a core
>
> > evaluation and we went that route. The findings came back that they
>
> > were
>
> > both delightful to interview/interact with, positive, and above
> normal
>
> > intellegence,
>
> > and although having some areas that were not up to par, overall they
>
> > were, again,
>
> > way above...so, NO special needs.
>
> >
>

----- Original Message -----
From: <Marcyshamb@...>

>
> I doubt he has this borderline problem...certainly not suicidal,
> etc...but I do believe
> he has ADHD... I think also that he has much negative attitude towards
> life.. the cup
> for him is always half empty...and he always assumes the worse... the
> opposite of the
> Train that says I think I can...he always approaches any task with a
> list of what he thinks
> he can't, or I can't...etc...  We are such opposites...Me willing to
> tackle anything, but
> with detailed planning, and a belief that I can, and should any
> problems arise, they will
> be solvable, or some solution found that I can live with.
>
> He will enter a bank...we get up to the window, and then for all
> including the casier to
> hear turn to me and say....THEY are not going to want to cash this for
> me or for you....
> My thought is usually...and why wouldn't they...and why would he put
> suspiciion in their
> mind that there could be something wrong with a check we had...
>
> Try as I have to figure out all that is behind this need to declare
> this at the window...
> I think its a combination of expecting an obsticle, while at the same
> time being
> afraid to have to confront it.. by saying ahead for them to hear that
> they won't cash it,
> he absolves himself from having to stand before the window 'begging'
> for them to cash
> the check...
>
> This is all so ..how to say it....so not me.  I don't consider
> presenting a check to a
> cashier as begging, but as expecting them to do what they do...and me
> do what I
> do in the circumstance...cash a check...period.... I expect it to be
> cashed, and should
> there arise a problem...I then ask the cashier how or what we can do to
> rectify it...
> although I really haven't had a problem in all these years cashing a
> check...that is my
> attitude..  We see the same event/situation...cashing a check at a bank
> far far differently..
>
> And so, in stores shopping, or any situation he approaches the
> task/event the same...I expect
> service, answers, a sale, and he expects ridicule and rejection by the
> person handeling us....



Where do you think this comes from? Did your husband experience a lot of
ridicule and rejection as a child? I can imagine how hard and frustrating
this must be for you to deal with. Your husband is very lucky to have an
understanding wife like you.


D.