It is probably a German program.  I can't quite remember the name, but
I bet that Bill will.

Brad
--
Dr. Bradley C. Duchaine                       Tel: 617-495-3884
Vision Sciences Laboratory                    Fax: 617-495-3764
Department of Psychology                      email: brad@...
Harvard University
33 Kirkland St., 7th Floor
Cambridge, MA 02138



> From: "Cecilia Burman" <cecilia.burman.fb@...>
> Reply-To: faceblind@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2001 20:47:44 +0200
> To: <faceblind@yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: Re: [faceblind] Martina@nancy
>
>
>
>> We know from the PA since I had seen the TV with a special
>> report about Bill Choisser - that was the point, when I know
>> that our family has this problem.
>>
>
> When was this program broadcasted? Do you know whether they will send it
> again? If they do, I would like to get a copy on video. Perhaps I can buy
> one from the TV station. Do you remember what TV station it was?
>
> :-)
> Cecilia Burman
>
>
>
> http://prosopagnosia.com/cb/
>
>
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> faceblind-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>

> We know from the PA since I had seen the TV with a special
> report about Bill Choisser - that was the point, when I know
> that our family has this problem.
>

When was this program broadcasted? Do you know whether they will send it
again? If they do, I would like to get a copy on video. Perhaps I can buy
one from the TV station. Do you remember what TV station it was?

:-)
Cecilia Burman



http://prosopagnosia.com/cb/

Hi, Tina,

It was interesting to learn about your family...I was glad to hear that
it's not a big problem for your husband...I guess that there are different
levels of severity...It must help that your husband, as a chart, probably
starts each meeting looking at it (with names) or in a hospital, people
are well identified!  I don't have the luxury of introductions done in
that way!  Hmmm!

Well,I have to go to work.  I'll write later!

Bye!

Nancy

--
Nancy Laurie
nancylaurie@... - email
(617) 250-0000 x2474 - voicemail/fax



---- "=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Martina_Gr=FCter?=" <mgrueter@...> wrote:
> Hi Nancy,
>
> my small daughter is in January 4 year old  and stay in the
> kindergarten since August this year. She had a problem with the
> children with the recognation - they had 25 children there in
> our group ... that is a lot amount a children. She is there with
> her best friend ( they know since they know since they both are
> 1, 5 years.) That help her a lot there. The first 4 weeks were
> realy a small problem for her, she don´t like to go in contact
> with the other children. Now she recognize the other children on
> the clothes, the hair and it is not as bad as I thought before.
>
> We are talking about the special outlook of the children and the
> kindergarten with all the playing and programm she likes. The
> free playing she don´t like. But all things they make in the
> group the singing.... she likes, because the children are at the
> places and don´t run around as much.
>
> We know from the PA since I had seen the TV with a special
> report about Bill Choisser - that was the point, when I know
> that our family has this problem.
>
> See my husband is quite happy and say that he had learnd a lot
> of things, which other people never can learn - only to
> recognice pleople at unexpected locations - that is not so bad -
> And I think he is right in the way to see this. It is good to
> know the facts but there is no big problem to live with this.
>
> We are both medical doctors- perhaps it is for us easier to live
> with the PA ( we know to much which is more dangerous than PA)
> It is very interested, that the brain has some locations, which
> can recognise the faces and it helps the people to know, when
> they has this deficit. They can inform the friends and they has
> not the feeling, that the PA people don´t want the contact .
>
> Thank you
>
> TINA
>
>
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> faceblind-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
>

__________________________________________________
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Hi Nancy,

my small daughter is in January 4 year old  and stay in the
kindergarten since August this year. She had a problem with the
children with the recognation - they had 25 children there in
our group ... that is a lot amount a children. She is there with
her best friend ( they know since they know since they both are
1, 5 years.) That help her a lot there. The first 4 weeks were
realy a small problem for her, she don´t like to go in contact
with the other children. Now she recognize the other children on
the clothes, the hair and it is not as bad as I thought before.

We are talking about the special outlook of the children and the
kindergarten with all the playing and programm she likes. The
free playing she don´t like. But all things they make in the
group the singing.... she likes, because the children are at the
places and don´t run around as much.

We know from the PA since I had seen the TV with a special
report about Bill Choisser - that was the point, when I know
that our family has this problem.

See my husband is quite happy and say that he had learnd a lot
of things, which other people never can learn - only to
recognice pleople at unexpected locations - that is not so bad -
And I think he is right in the way to see this. It is good to
know the facts but there is no big problem to live with this.

We are both medical doctors- perhaps it is for us easier to live
with the PA ( we know to much which is more dangerous than PA)
It is very interested, that the brain has some locations, which
can recognise the faces and it helps the people to know, when
they has this deficit. They can inform the friends and they has
not the feeling, that the PA people don´t want the contact .

Thank you

TINA

Hi, Martina,

That's interesting...Well, that's something that he doesn't have problems
with PA...Maybe it doesn't interfere with what he does?  Is your daughter
a little child?

I realized that my situation of not recognizing people was something
with a name some years ago...before that, I hadn't noticed that other
people had a significantly time of it, even though it was...challenging
for me!  I can't tell you how many times in a day that I see people I
should recognize and don't!  It doesn't bother me...but it does challenge
me!  Usually, I try to find ways to figure out who they are. Some of
us wrote some letters recently about ideas regarding children...I don't
know how old your daughter is, but maybe you saw those letters?

Anyway, take care, and thanks for responding!

Nancy
> Hi Nancy,
>
> my husband and my father in law they both have no problems with
> the PA - it is my small daughter - she is just learning to work
> with this problems - and I feel she is doing a quite good job.
> See, we know about the problems and talk to her - that helps a
> lot and we are training all the details of the persons.
>
> My husband just has no big interest  to join the group - he say,
> that he is not suffering on the PA - because he found ways to
> live with it. The only point which he don´t like is, that he
> can´t train it like a foreign language.
>
> Martina
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> faceblind-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
>

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hi Brad,

no only my husband and my father in law has the PA and now our
daughter. It seems to be special in congenital PA - I only know
from Bill, that his father has the PA to. All the other people
who wrote in the family PA list seems to have PA in the first
generation or based on an traumatic insult.

We has no big trouble with the PA but I am interested in ideas
to help my small daughter for an easier socialisation and to
make contacts to other children.

Martina Grüter / Germany

Hi Nancy,

my husband and my father in law they both have no problems with
the PA - it is my small daughter - she is just learning to work
with this problems - and I feel she is doing a quite good job.
See, we know about the problems and talk to her - that helps a
lot and we are training all the details of the persons.

My husband just has no big interest  to join the group - he say,
that he is not suffering on the PA - because he found ways to
live with it. The only point which he don´t like is, that he
can´t train it like a foreign language.

Martina

Hi Martina,

I do not have PA; I only do research on it.

The clear genetic cause of your PA is something that I hope
scientists will soon be investigating.  Am I reading you right--
PA runs in both your family and your husband's family?

Brad

--
Dr. Bradley C. Duchaine                       Tel: 617-495-3884
Vision Sciences Laboratory                    Fax: 617-495-3764
Department of Psychology
Harvard University
33 Kirkland St., 7th Floor
Cambridge, MA 02138



> From: "Martina Grüter" <mgrueter@...>
> Reply-To: faceblind@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2001 17:28:43 +0200
> To: faceblind@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [faceblind]Brad
>
> Hi Brad,
>
> are you doing research on the PA Problem or do you have PA ? I
> had some problems to understand this.
>
> Martina Grüter / Germany
>
> PS: In my family the PA is now in the third generation. My
> Father in law , my husband and my daughter ( nearly 4 years now)
> has the problem with the recognition of the faces. They all see
> the face and the motions but don´t recognice the people on a
> unexpectet location. ( Market/ town/ cinema....)
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> faceblind-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>

--
Nancy Laurie
Hi, I'm Nancy from Cambridge, MA...That's interesting about your husband...Maybe
he should join the faceblind list...!  Do you help him out in social
situations, etc.?

Nancy

nancylaurie@... - email
(617) 250-0000 x2474 - voicemail/fax



---- "=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Martina_Gr=FCter?=" <mgrueter@...> wrote:
> Hi Brad,
>
> are you doing research on the PA Problem or do you have PA ? I
> had some problems to understand this.
>
> Martina Grüter / Germany
>
> PS: In my family the PA is now in the third generation. My
> Father in law , my husband and my daughter ( nearly 4 years now)
> has the problem with the recognition of the faces. They all see
> the face and the motions but don´t recognice the people on a
> unexpectet location. ( Market/ town/ cinema....)
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> faceblind-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
>

__________________________________________________
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Sign Up Now! http://www.onebox.com

--
Nancy Laurie
Hi, I'm Nancy from Cambridge, MA...That's interesting about your husband...Maybe
he should join the faceblind list...!  Do you help him out in social
situations, etc.?

Nancy

nancylaurie@... - email
(617) 250-0000 x2474 - voicemail/fax



---- "=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Martina_Gr=FCter?=" <mgrueter@...> wrote:
> Hi Brad,
>
> are you doing research on the PA Problem or do you have PA ? I
> had some problems to understand this.
>
> Martina Grüter / Germany
>
> PS: In my family the PA is now in the third generation. My
> Father in law , my husband and my daughter ( nearly 4 years now)
> has the problem with the recognition of the faces. They all see
> the face and the motions but don´t recognice the people on a
> unexpectet location. ( Market/ town/ cinema....)
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> faceblind-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
>

__________________________________________________
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Hi Brad,

are you doing research on the PA Problem or do you have PA ? I
had some problems to understand this.

Martina Grüter / Germany

PS: In my family the PA is now in the third generation. My
Father in law , my husband and my daughter ( nearly 4 years now)
has the problem with the recognition of the faces. They all see
the face and the motions but don´t recognice the people on a
unexpectet location. ( Market/ town/ cinema....)

Brad, Thanks for the thoughtful response...

--
Nancy Laurie
nancylaurie@... - email
(617) 250-0000 x2474 - voicemail/fax



---- Brad Duchaine <brad@...> wrote:
> I think that there is something subconsciously going on, but I
> don't feel like I get much in the way of identity information if
> I don't scan each face.  I think that there is something
> subconscious, because I believe that I can pick familiar faces
> out of a crowd faster than I can less familiar faces, and this
> has been shown experimentally (Tong & Nakayama, 1999?).
>
> Brad
> --
> Dr. Bradley C. Duchaine                       Tel: 617-495-3884
> Vision Sciences Laboratory                    Fax: 617-495-3764
> Department of Psychology
> Harvard University
> 33 Kirkland St., 7th Floor
> Cambridge, MA 02138
>
>
>
> > From: "Cecilia Burman (temporary address)" <cecilia_burman@...>
> > Reply-To: faceblind@yahoogroups.com
> > Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 18:02:08 +0200
> > To: faceblind@yahoogroups.com
> > Subject: Re: [faceblind] why we forget
> >
> >
> >
> > Hi Brad
> >
> > You know me already, so I won't introduce myself.  :-)
> >
> > Are you saying that you don't see the faces, or that you are not
> aware of
> > the process? I mean, do you actually miss familiar people if you
> do not
> > actively scan each face in the crowd, or is it 'done for you' on
> a
> > subconscious level?
> >
> > :-)
> > Cecilia Burman
> >
> >
> > http://prosopagnosia.com/cb/
> >
> >
> >> From: Brad Duchaine <brad@...>
> >> Reply-To: faceblind@yahoogroups.com
> >> To: <faceblind@yahoogroups.com>
> >> Subject: Re: [faceblind] why we forget
> >> Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 10:54:05 -0400
> >>
> >> Hi All,
> >>
> >> I'll take this opportunity to introduce myself.  My name is Brad
> >> Duchaine, and I've been doing research on prosopagnosia and face
> >> recognition for the last three years.  I've worked with a number
> >> of developmental prosopagnosics in California, and now I've moved
> >> to Boston to do a post-doc here in the Vision Lab at Harvard.
> >>
> >> I certainly am not the final authority on scientific aspects of
> >> prosopagnosia, but if any of you have questions, please feel free
> >> to ask me.  I find your discussions very informative, and I hope
> >> that I could give something back to the group.
> >>
> >> Nancy--In respose to your question about seeing faces in crowds
> >> when attention is not focused on them:  I don't get much out
> >> of faces when I do not attend to them.  They are there, but they
> >> seem fairly identityless to me.  If I come across any research
> >> on this question, I'll let you know.
> >>
> >> Brad
> >> --
> >> Dr. Bradley C. Duchaine                       Tel: 617-495-3884
> >> Vision Sciences Laboratory                    Fax: 617-495-3764
> >> Department of Psychology
> >> Harvard University
> >> 33 Kirkland St., 7th Floor
> >> Cambridge, MA 02138
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>> From: "Nancy Laurie" <nancylaurie@...>
> >>> Reply-To: faceblind@yahoogroups.com
> >>> Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2001 19:41:37 -0400
> >>> To: faceblind@yahoogroups.com
> >>> Subject: [faceblind] why we forget
> >>>
> >>> I've been thinking lately about how sometimes in a large group,
> it is
> >>> possible to stand in one place and "listen" to just one conversation,
> >>> despite the fact that other speakers are as close to the listener...It's
> >>> possible to somehow "tune" the other speakers out...
> >>>
> >>> I was wondering about faces...For those of you out there who are
> not
> >>> faceblind, when you look for a face in a crowd, what happens to
> the
> >> other
> >>> faces?  Do you remember many of them?  If so, why?  If not, why
> not?
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> __________________________________________________
> >>> FREE voicemail, email, and fax...all in one place.
> >>> Sign Up Now! http://www.onebox.com
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> >>> faceblind-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> >> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >>>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> >> faceblind-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> > _________________________________________________________________
> > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp
> >
> >
> >
> > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> > faceblind-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
>
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> faceblind-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>
>
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>
>
>
>

__________________________________________________
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Sign Up Now! http://www.onebox.com

I think that there is something subconsciously going on, but I
don't feel like I get much in the way of identity information if
I don't scan each face.  I think that there is something
subconscious, because I believe that I can pick familiar faces
out of a crowd faster than I can less familiar faces, and this
has been shown experimentally (Tong & Nakayama, 1999?).

Brad
--
Dr. Bradley C. Duchaine                       Tel: 617-495-3884
Vision Sciences Laboratory                    Fax: 617-495-3764
Department of Psychology
Harvard University
33 Kirkland St., 7th Floor
Cambridge, MA 02138



> From: "Cecilia Burman (temporary address)" <cecilia_burman@...>
> Reply-To: faceblind@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 18:02:08 +0200
> To: faceblind@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [faceblind] why we forget
>
>
>
> Hi Brad
>
> You know me already, so I won't introduce myself.  :-)
>
> Are you saying that you don't see the faces, or that you are not aware of
> the process? I mean, do you actually miss familiar people if you do not
> actively scan each face in the crowd, or is it 'done for you' on a
> subconscious level?
>
> :-)
> Cecilia Burman
>
>
> http://prosopagnosia.com/cb/
>
>
>> From: Brad Duchaine <brad@...>
>> Reply-To: faceblind@yahoogroups.com
>> To: <faceblind@yahoogroups.com>
>> Subject: Re: [faceblind] why we forget
>> Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 10:54:05 -0400
>>
>> Hi All,
>>
>> I'll take this opportunity to introduce myself.  My name is Brad
>> Duchaine, and I've been doing research on prosopagnosia and face
>> recognition for the last three years.  I've worked with a number
>> of developmental prosopagnosics in California, and now I've moved
>> to Boston to do a post-doc here in the Vision Lab at Harvard.
>>
>> I certainly am not the final authority on scientific aspects of
>> prosopagnosia, but if any of you have questions, please feel free
>> to ask me.  I find your discussions very informative, and I hope
>> that I could give something back to the group.
>>
>> Nancy--In respose to your question about seeing faces in crowds
>> when attention is not focused on them:  I don't get much out
>> of faces when I do not attend to them.  They are there, but they
>> seem fairly identityless to me.  If I come across any research
>> on this question, I'll let you know.
>>
>> Brad
>> --
>> Dr. Bradley C. Duchaine                       Tel: 617-495-3884
>> Vision Sciences Laboratory                    Fax: 617-495-3764
>> Department of Psychology
>> Harvard University
>> 33 Kirkland St., 7th Floor
>> Cambridge, MA 02138
>>
>>
>>
>>> From: "Nancy Laurie" <nancylaurie@...>
>>> Reply-To: faceblind@yahoogroups.com
>>> Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2001 19:41:37 -0400
>>> To: faceblind@yahoogroups.com
>>> Subject: [faceblind] why we forget
>>>
>>> I've been thinking lately about how sometimes in a large group, it is
>>> possible to stand in one place and "listen" to just one conversation,
>>> despite the fact that other speakers are as close to the listener...It's
>>> possible to somehow "tune" the other speakers out...
>>>
>>> I was wondering about faces...For those of you out there who are not
>>> faceblind, when you look for a face in a crowd, what happens to the
>> other
>>> faces?  Do you remember many of them?  If so, why?  If not, why not?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> __________________________________________________
>>> FREE voicemail, email, and fax...all in one place.
>>> Sign Up Now! http://www.onebox.com
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
>>> faceblind-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
>> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
>> faceblind-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>>
>>
>>
>> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>>
>>
>
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp
>
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> faceblind-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>

Hi Brad

You know me already, so I won't introduce myself.  :-)

Are you saying that you don't see the faces, or that you are not aware of
the process? I mean, do you actually miss familiar people if you do not
actively scan each face in the crowd, or is it 'done for you' on a
subconscious level?

:-)
Cecilia Burman


http://prosopagnosia.com/cb/


>From: Brad Duchaine <brad@...>
>Reply-To: faceblind@yahoogroups.com
>To: <faceblind@yahoogroups.com>
>Subject: Re: [faceblind] why we forget
>Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 10:54:05 -0400
>
>Hi All,
>
>I'll take this opportunity to introduce myself.  My name is Brad
>Duchaine, and I've been doing research on prosopagnosia and face
>recognition for the last three years.  I've worked with a number
>of developmental prosopagnosics in California, and now I've moved
>to Boston to do a post-doc here in the Vision Lab at Harvard.
>
>I certainly am not the final authority on scientific aspects of
>prosopagnosia, but if any of you have questions, please feel free
>to ask me.  I find your discussions very informative, and I hope
>that I could give something back to the group.
>
>Nancy--In respose to your question about seeing faces in crowds
>when attention is not focused on them:  I don't get much out
>of faces when I do not attend to them.  They are there, but they
>seem fairly identityless to me.  If I come across any research
>on this question, I'll let you know.
>
>Brad
>--
>Dr. Bradley C. Duchaine                       Tel: 617-495-3884
>Vision Sciences Laboratory                    Fax: 617-495-3764
>Department of Psychology
>Harvard University
>33 Kirkland St., 7th Floor
>Cambridge, MA 02138
>
>
>
> > From: "Nancy Laurie" <nancylaurie@...>
> > Reply-To: faceblind@yahoogroups.com
> > Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2001 19:41:37 -0400
> > To: faceblind@yahoogroups.com
> > Subject: [faceblind] why we forget
> >
> > I've been thinking lately about how sometimes in a large group, it is
> > possible to stand in one place and "listen" to just one conversation,
> > despite the fact that other speakers are as close to the listener...It's
> > possible to somehow "tune" the other speakers out...
> >
> > I was wondering about faces...For those of you out there who are not
> > faceblind, when you look for a face in a crowd, what happens to the
>other
> > faces?  Do you remember many of them?  If so, why?  If not, why not?
> >
> >
> >
> > __________________________________________________
> > FREE voicemail, email, and fax...all in one place.
> > Sign Up Now! http://www.onebox.com
> >
> >
> >
> > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> > faceblind-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
>http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
>
>
>
>To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
>faceblind-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>
>
>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>


_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp

Hi All,

I'll take this opportunity to introduce myself.  My name is Brad
Duchaine, and I've been doing research on prosopagnosia and face
recognition for the last three years.  I've worked with a number
of developmental prosopagnosics in California, and now I've moved
to Boston to do a post-doc here in the Vision Lab at Harvard.

I certainly am not the final authority on scientific aspects of
prosopagnosia, but if any of you have questions, please feel free
to ask me.  I find your discussions very informative, and I hope
that I could give something back to the group.

Nancy--In respose to your question about seeing faces in crowds
when attention is not focused on them:  I don't get much out
of faces when I do not attend to them.  They are there, but they
seem fairly identityless to me.  If I come across any research
on this question, I'll let you know.

Brad
--
Dr. Bradley C. Duchaine                       Tel: 617-495-3884
Vision Sciences Laboratory                    Fax: 617-495-3764
Department of Psychology
Harvard University
33 Kirkland St., 7th Floor
Cambridge, MA 02138



> From: "Nancy Laurie" <nancylaurie@...>
> Reply-To: faceblind@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2001 19:41:37 -0400
> To: faceblind@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [faceblind] why we forget
>
> I've been thinking lately about how sometimes in a large group, it is
> possible to stand in one place and "listen" to just one conversation,
> despite the fact that other speakers are as close to the listener...It's
> possible to somehow "tune" the other speakers out...
>
> I was wondering about faces...For those of you out there who are not
> faceblind, when you look for a face in a crowd, what happens to the other
> faces?  Do you remember many of them?  If so, why?  If not, why not?
>
>
>
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---- Glenn Alperin <glenn@...> wrote:
> <snip>
>
> > > Nancy:
> > >
> > > > Second, I would suggest that the parent speak with the teacher
> and
> > > ask
> > > > the following...After perhaps giving the teacher a list of websites
> > > > related to faceblindness (for the teacher's education), perhaps
> asking
> > > > if it might be possible to have some kinds of name tags on kids
> desks
> > > > in the class...For example, on the front of the desk...It could
> be
> > > in
> > > > some out of the way place that could, nonetheless, be seen...
> > >
> > > Glenn:
> > >
> > > The real problem with this, Nancy, is that the other kids will
> invariably
> > > ask such questions as "Why do we have to do this?"  Also, what
> do you
> > > propose to do with the inevitable students who switch desks knowing
> > > this
> > > very fact?
> >
> > Nancy:
> >
> > What I would suggest is for example, on the first day of school,
> the
> > teacher has cards on the kids' desks...Not on top, but in front...so
> > that the faceblind person would have access to the cards, but they
> wouldn't
> > be in the way...The teacher wouldn't need to give an explanation..."Good
> > morning, everybody...Welcome...Could you all please write your names?
> >  I'd like you to make a little sign for your desk for the year..."
> >
> > And yes, switching desks is a huge problem, but I guess that the
> cards
> > on desks might be a start...?
>
> Glenn:
>
> Sure, it might be a start, but don't forget how observant kids can
> be,
> especially those who are not face blind.  How long do you think it
> will
> take them to notice that one fellow student in their class never looks
> at
> their face, and always looks at their name card?
>
Nancy:

Personally, as a teacher myself, I think that much of the tone and expectations
of the students are set by the teacher...I believe that an atmosphere
of respect (and hopefully, love) can be set by the teacher and expected
and requested...The kind of teasing that I think you're suggesting "could"
take place, I will agree, could...as is the case with  almost any kind
of teasing...but there should be such an atmosphere of fun and respect
set in the classroom that it doesn't get a chance to take place or --
in the case that it does -- immediately gets addressed and stopped.
On the one hand, I don't believe in permitting any kind of bullying on
any level, period.  I'm pretty firm about that.  I work with adults,
but have spent enough time in my life working with children (camp counselor,
child care, etc.) to have seen and believe in the influence  of expectations
with children...


> > > Nancy
> > > Glenn> > >
> > > And here, the average faceblind child will say "Boris?  Who the
> heck
> > > is
> > > Boris?" thus cutting short this form of communication.
> >
> > Nancy:
> >
> > Okay...You have a point...But don't you think that there is some
> memory
> > of names?
>
> Glenn:
>
> Personally, I was always overwhelmed in large groups of people (still
> am,
> actually) and a large group of names was never that helpful in relieving
> my
> sense of being overwhelmed.

Nancy:

I understand that you don't like large groups, and that might be true
for many...If it is true for the individual child, then that would need
to be addressed...I guess, too, that there are different levels of
faceblindness...I
could understand that a severely faceblind person might find that to
be overwhelming...Oddly, I think that it might also to an extent depend
upon the group...A group of children in Japan (where I lived for a year),
where many of the kids have long, black hair and dark eyes and are required
to wear uniforms or a group of children who for some reason have similar
styles and coloring in the U.S. might be different from a  group of people
who for some reason have different shapes, styles and coloring.  I can
remember a group that I once taught where, as the chips fell, it simply
wound up that the people were very different looking...Very different
hairstyles and colors, different heights, etc.  It was amazing...I felt
that I got to know them more quickly (they were my students, and I needed
to gather information on them in order to teach them)...

Glenn:

The ideal solution, of course, is the
> use of
> name tags, until such time as the other students in the class get bored
> of using them and/or decide that switching name tags is a fun game
> to play.

Nancy:

Yes, that might work...With adults, it's hard to get them to keep using
name tags...They simply expect you to memorize their names within a certain
amount of time...but that might be a solution...

Glenn:>
> For large groups of people, you get to hear names often enough among
> that
> group that you can remember the names independantly, but associating
> those
> names with actual people is another task entirely.
>
Nancy:

Yes.  True!
> >

Glenn:
> >
> > This would
> > > have
> > > to be completely parent-driven, and the parent will have to know
> all
> > > of
> > > the kids in the class on at least an equal with the teacher, if
> not
> > > knowing
> > > even more about them.
> >
> > Nancy:
> >
> > Could you clarify the part above, please? I'm not sure what your
> idea
> > is...
>
> Glenn:
>
> In order to jog a useful reminder for the child, the parent will have
> to
> know a lot about the individual students.  Any teacher can tell you
> that
> their knowledge of specific students has to be very very good for them
> to feel that their teaching methods are going to work with those students.

Nancy:

As a teacher, I think that it is always preferable to know the learner
and understand the learner...Before that gets to happen, I think that
it is possible to be effective...but different strategies (that would
address the needs of many learners) would need to be used...

Glenn:
Lacking the neccessary knowledge, teachers may also find that sparking
> interest from their students in their particular teaching subjects
> can also be quite taxing.
>
> If the parent is to hope to make a useful impact on the child's knowledge
of the people in the class, they will have to know as much information
> about the students in the class as the teacher knows.

Nancy:

I think that it might be helpful to know what kind of information would
be useful...Hmmm...I was just thinking...Maybe a video of the class,
for example, a first day video, where there were things of each child
speaking, addressing the class with their interests..."Hi, my name is
Gonzalo...I (assuming it's a child) really like frogs...Last summer,
my family rented a cabin by a lake and we caught a lot of frogs..."
While the faceblind child was watching the video (at home), they could
begin to look for cues, what kind, I don't know...Maybe hairstyle and
color...It's difficult...

But one thing is for sure...and most parents probably would have thought
of it...They sure shouldn't be in a school in which kids wear uniforms...
> > Glenn:
> >
> > > Also, again, mapping out a class is only good if people consistantly
> > > stay
> > > in the same seats.  Children tend to do this if seats are not assigned
> > > (adults
> > > too, for that matter) but there is no guarantee this will always
> be
> > > the case.
> >
> > Nancy:
> >
> > Yes,I appreciate what you are saying...and I agree that switching
> seats
> > is problematic... but I do think that it could help to have something
> > like this for the kids to think about...I'm even wondering whether
> such
> > an exercise (or map or looking at one) would aid in recall simply
> by
> > offering the kinds of cues which the child could understand...
>
> Glenn:
>
> Yes, it would most certainly provide another clue in the recognition
> process,
> but thats all it would be, i.e., another clue.  You already know that
> we need
> all the clues we can get, and that at least a third of them are misleading
>
> from the outset anyway.
>
> Nancy:
>
> > What helps
> > me, personally, is nametags and others saying the names...
> >
> > or...what if the cues were faceblind friendly cues?  Long, brown
> hair...funny
> > walk...wears glasses?  That only sometimes helps me...
>
> Glenn:
>
> I agree with all of the above.
>

Nancy:

Yes, hearing people say names helps tremendously...
> <snip>
>
> > > Nancy:
> > >
> > > > Very importantly is the fact that faceblindness might also be
> > > > associated with other learning style issues such as dyslexia...
> > >
> > > Glenn:
> > >
> > > Even stranger, or maybe not to this group of people, some people
> regularly
> > > confuse
> > > the two, and I don't think such people are dyslexic.
> >
> > Nancy:
> >
> > When you say that you don't think such people are dyslexic, are you
> referring
> > to faceblind people?
>
> Glenn:
>
> No, I was referring specifically to those people who think that face
> blindness
> and dyslexia are the same thing.
>
Nancy:

Yes, they are different...I think that it's possible for a person to
have both, but not necessarily the case...
>
> Glenn:
>
> ahhh, but they are not associated, strictly speaking, with face blindness,
> despite the fact that many of us face blind people also have these
> difficulties.

Nancy:

I think that you're saying  that they are not the same thing, and if
this is the case, I would agree with you...but I do think that it's possible
for a person to have both...it's interesting, in my opinion...
>
> > > Nancy:
> > >
> > > > If your
> > > > child flips letters or exhibits other symptoms that you see on
> > > > dyslexia websites, I would recommend a book called the Gift of
> > > > Dyslexia and vigilance in assuring that the child get an excellent
> > > > learning experience...If I think of anything else, I'll send
> it
> > > > separately...
> > >
> > > Glenn:
> > >
> > > Just be very very careful at making the proper distinctions here:
> > > While there are some things in common between face blindness and
> > > dyslexia, it is really only at the very essence of failure of
> > > properly recognizing "something" in which they coalesce.
> >
> > Nancy:
> >
> > I'm a little unclear about what you're saying here...or perhaps I
> was
> > not clear in my previous statements...I'm not saying that I think
> that
> > faceblind people have dyslexia or even that faceblindness and dyslexia
> > are the same or come together...I'm saying that I think that it would
> > be wise to be thorough in exploring the person's potential and style
> > as a learner to discover whether the child also has dyslexia...
>
> Glenn:
>
> I agree with this.
>
> > Glenn:
> >
> >  The
> > > social ramifications of the two are very different.
> >
> > Nancy:
> >
> > I would like to add (as a teacher)....unless the gift is discovered
> and
> > the extraordinary potential tapped...
>
> Glenn:
>
> Even so, both are "isolating conditions" in their own way.  The only
>
> way to alleviate the sense of isolation is to find multiple people
> with
> the same condition, and allow them to interact with each other freely
> in an "invite only" type of environment.  Only then can real sharing
> of
> ideas and experiencing and feelings occur.
>
> > Glenn:
> >
> >  I don't mean
> > > to say one is "better" or "worse" for the child than the other,
> > > but they are different, and htey can both be socially isolating
> in
> > >
> > > their own ways.
> >
> > Nancy:
> >
> > Yes, or darn confusing!
>
> Glenn:
>
> I agree with that!
>
> > > Nancy:
> > >
> > > > Your child is entitled to an excellent education that
> > > > meets his or her needs as a learner...If your child already has
> other
> > > > learning style issues, in addition to faceblindness, your teacher
> > > may
> > > > not know how to address those needs...It might be good for you
> to
> > > be
> > > > resourceful in determining how your child can get the best possible
> > > > education and spend his or her time well...
> > >
> > > Glenn:
> > >
> > > I agree with this.  The parent is ALWAYS the best possible advocate
> > > for
> > > the child.
> > >
> > > Nancy:
> > >
> > > > Okay, that's all for now...I'm tired! Take care, everybody...
> > > >
> > > > Nancy
> > >
> > > Glenn
> > >
> >
> > Nancy:
> >
> > Good to hear the ideas, Glenn!
>
> Glenn:
>
> Thanks Nancy!  And I have plenty more ideas where those came from.
> ;-)
>
> Glenn
>
Glad to hear that!

;)

Nancy

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I've been thinking lately about how sometimes in a large group, it is
possible to stand in one place and "listen" to just one conversation,
despite the fact that other speakers are as close to the listener...It's
possible to somehow "tune" the other speakers out...

I was wondering about faces...For those of you out there who are not
faceblind, when you look for a face in a crowd, what happens to the other
faces?  Do you remember many of them?  If so, why?  If not, why not?



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I thought that I would send this email to faceblind public, because I
thought that it would be helpful, particularly for people with faceblind
family members, to get a sense of what it's like (from somebody not in
the family)...

Here's a typical work situation...When I meet new groups of people, they
are usually very similar...for the first few days, I tend to mix them
up, until I get a better sense of who they are (and clues)...I might
be able to begin to distinguish different styles, gestures, etc. Now,
here are a couple of people at work who look pretty much alike to me...They
both have long, brown hair, very similar style...Even though I have been
here (just returned to an old job fairly recently) for about a month,
I have no idea as to the difference between them...for this reason, I
seldom call them by their names...

Sometimes, I get together with groups of friends and the friends (or
most of them) don't know about this faceblindness thing)...I usually
cover up a little for the fact that I don't know who is who by saying
something like this..."Oh, have you two met?"  Then fortunately, they
usually go ahead and introduce themselves...That works wonders
(sometimes)...Even
though I've met them many times, it's pretty confusing...Amazingly, they
don't realize that I don't know who they are!  I mean, I have general
clues...and sometimes after a couple of minutes of conversation, I know...but
they pretty much are in the same group...Some of them sometimes say that
they think I'm really good at names, as a result!

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>
> Glenn:
>
> This might work very well for you, Bill, but perhaps not so well for
> the rest of us.  For example, I always found ascertaining who people
> are
> based on clothing to be useful only on a short-term basis.  Its not
> useful,
> for example, to know that Sally was wearing a red shirt YESTERDAY if
> you
> want to recognize her TODAY.

Nancy:

In my opinion, one of the goals could be to help the child strategize...For
example, yes, the green shirt thing doesn't work very well for the long
term, but it can be a lifesaver for the short term...But helping the
kid to come up with ideas for strategies that are more effective (noting
hair color, body shape, etc....things that the rest of us might have
learned to do subconsciously could become a conscious -- and therefore
-- more effective act for the child.


>
> Bill:
>
> > For a kid, I can imagine him remembering "Tommy has on the blue shirt
> > today," that sort of thing.  The main accommodation might just be
> > kids being told the nice thing to do is tell the face blind kid who
> > they are if he asks.  I'd bet that is what they're told to do for
> > a totally blind kid.  The face blind kid can track them a lot better,
> > though, once he notices what they're wearing.

Nancy:

I agree.  It would need to be explained by someone in an extremely sensitve
waay
> Glenn:
>
> A totally blind kid, though, has the distinct advantage here in that,
> if
> desired, the other kids can close their eyes and actually imagine (albeit
> in a very superficial sense) what being blind is like.  How do you
> express
> to a probably already uninterested student the significance of not
> being
> able to recognize people?  Either one of us faceblind people could
> express
> the problems involved in that very well, but creating workable solutions
> is another matter entirely, and may not even be possible in all such
> settings.
>
> Bill:
>
> > One accommodation for "one of ours" on a playground might be to
> > not expect him to play in a large group.  We usually do okay in
> > small ones, because there we can find out who people are and
> > keep track of them.
>
> Glenn:
>
> Personally, I never played much in large groups to start with.
> Small groups were always much better for me as well, and in fact,
> still are.
>
> Bill:
>
> > In a classroom, the thing to do is just not ask the face blind
> > kid to do things like hand out papers.  I'd bet they don't have
> > totally blind kids do that either.
>
> Glenn:
>
> This is a no-brainer for us, Bill.  Your average teacher, bright as
> they
> are, often fails to make this realization.  Again, it is the parent
> which
> MUST make this point to the teacher.
>
> Bill:
>
> > I don't think I ever encountered a test where I had to recognize
> > faces - you know, write names under pictures of presidents, for
> > example.  If that should actually happen, a face blind kid would
> > need to be excused from that.  As would a totally blind kid be.
> >
> > Keep in mind neither I, nor any of my teachers, knew I was
> > face blind.  I realize I survived there just like I do now as
> > an adult.  Same techniques:  pick easy people, keep groups
> > small, and ask if you don't know.
> >
> > There are also times to just realize it is hopeless and kick
> > back and let it all happen in front of you while you don't
> > participate.
>
> Glenn:
>
> I do this quite regularly, actually.  ;-)
>
> > >Nancy:
> > >
> > >> There are other things that teachers or teachers and students
> could do
> > >> to make things easier for the child...For example, the teacher
> could
> > >> constantly call people by their names..."Robert, what do you think?
> > >> Betty, do you agree?" This would be particularly important on
> class
> > >> trips, etc.
> > >
> > >Glenn:
> > >
> > >I agree with this wholeheartedly.
> >
> > Bill:
> >
> > The operative question would be, "Does the FB kid need to know who
> > these people are at the moment?" and weigh that against the
> > distraction of altering the usual procedure.  Telling the FB kid
> > that Betty is answering won't help much if the FB kid can't chat
> > Betty up at the moment.  It's not like he's going to find her
> > on the playground tomorrow because the teacher called her Betty.
>
> Glenn:
>
> True, but its useful within the context of the social situation.
>
> I always found it helpful when people would give me these "identity
> morsels", and even though I didn't (and still don't) make a point of
>
> acknowledging them with anything more than a brief nod of the head,
> I have occasionally told people that I really appreciate it when they
> give me this information, but at the particular moment in question,
> I don't think it is always appropriate to acknowledge my gratitude
> in
> any other manner.
>
> <snip>
>
> > >Nancy:
> > >
> > >> Your child is entitled to an excellent education that
> > >> meets his or her needs as a learner...If your child already has
> other
> > >> learning style issues, in addition to faceblindness, your teacher
> may
> > >> not know how to address those needs...It might be good for you
> to be
> > >> resourceful in determining how your child can get the best possible
> > >> education and spend his or her time well...
> > >
> > >Glenn:
> > >
> > >I agree with this.  The parent is ALWAYS the best possible advocate
> for
> > >the child.
> >
> > Bill:
> >
> > Personal experience tells me "not always".
>
> Glenn:
>
> I did say "best possible", and I chose those words quite carefully.
> If I had said "best" instead, your comments below, Bill, would be
> quite correct.
>
> The parent has the opportunity to make things at least a little easier
> for
> their face blind child.  That doesn't guarantee, however, that they
> will
> make the neccessary effort to do so.
>
> > Some impaired kids have
> > the misfortune to have parents who want a "normal" kid so bad they
> > go into denial - to the point their behavior spawns actions abusive
> > to the kid.  Such parents may not only not advocate for a kid, but
> > may sense his vulnerabilities and use them to psychologically
> > abuse him.  Since it would not harm an ordinary child to have
> > those vulnerabilities transgressed, no one reports the activity as
> > abuse.  Thusly the parents get away with getting back at the
> > disabled child for coming into their lives.
> >
> > Bill
>
> Glenn
>
>
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---- "Cecilia Burman (temporary address)" <cecilia_burman@...>
wrote:
>
>
> > >Nancy:
> > >
> > >> There are other things that teachers or teachers and students
> could do
> > >> to make things easier for the child...For example, the teacher
> could
> > >> constantly call people by their names..."Robert, what do you think?
> > >> Betty, do you agree?" This would be particularly important on
> class
> > >> trips, etc.
> > >
> > >Glenn:
> > >
> > >I agree with this wholeheartedly.
> >
> >Bill:
> >
> >The operative question would be, "Does the FB kid need to know who
> >these people are at the moment?" and weigh that against the
> >distraction of altering the usual procedure.  Telling the FB kid
> >that Betty is answering won't help much if the FB kid can't chat
> >Betty up at the moment.  It's not like he's going to find her
> >on the playground tomorrow because the teacher called her Betty.
> >
>
>
> <snip>
>
>
> >Bill:
> >
> >Ever try to count the number of goldfish in a bowl?  It's a lot easier
> >to count books on a shelf because they aren't moving.  Similarly,
> the
> >recess lot is tough.

Nancy:

Yes!  Well, said!  That's exactly what it's like!


Bill:
In the classroom was not such a big problem.
> >You knew who the kids were by where they sat and what the teacher
> >called them.  Because they weren't moving, you had plenty of time
> >to think about it and sort them out.
> >
>
> For me it would help if the teacher used names. That would give me
> a firm
> base for memorizing things like "Betty has a green jacket" or "This
> is what
> Boris (or his hair or whatever) looks like. That is a technique I use
> almost
> every day. Waiting for someone to name the persons around me so I can
>
> memorize who is who, or can call on them again if I need to.
>
> (I had one incident today where I talked to a guy for probably 10 or
> 15
> minutes wondering who he was. Finally he logged into a computer program
>
> using his own name, so now I know who he was.)
>
> :-)
> Cecilia Burman
>
>
> www.prosopagnosia.com/cb
>
Yes, same here. :)
Nancy
>
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>> Bill:
>>
>> My experience is that, with adults even, you don't get accommodations
>> in groups bigger than a handful of people.  As an adult I know to
>> stick close to the few people I CAN recognize in a group.  Also,
>> in small groups once you ascertain who people are, you can follow
>> them because their clothes and hair are unique enough.
>
>Glenn:
>
>This might work very well for you, Bill, but perhaps not so well for
>the rest of us.  For example, I always found ascertaining who people are
>based on clothing to be useful only on a short-term basis.  Its not useful,
>for example, to know that Sally was wearing a red shirt YESTERDAY if you
>want to recognize her TODAY.

Bill:

I was talking about two different situations and you mixed them
together.  Sorry I confused you.  The first situation is going
into a big group and finding the few you can recognize.  The
second situation is keeping track of say, a foursome, that you
are with at the moment, while ignoring a multitude in the
background.  I foresaw a child confronting the entire recess
lot and then moving into a play group of a few - a number he
can handle.

As for the first scene, having a few people one can recognize
even in a large group is not that unusual for face blind people.
This is what allows us to go for years not realizing we are
face blind.

We have the people we've seen many many times, there are some
people who are simply very unusual, and some of us have visual
traits that work reasonably well.  On celebrity tests the
many-many-times situation comes out.  It is not unusual for face
blind people to recognize a few faces out of twenty-five, where
most people get all twenty-five.  Then there are the few here
and there that any face blind person could recognize, the thing
we've called "the Gorbachev effect".  Add to that the ability
that some of us have (not just me - I've met several, and Pertti
is one) to do very well with certain traits.  When you add all
those up you have a few "a guy just-with-faceblindness" can
recognize in a large crowd.  Quite a few people are face blind
along with other visual deficits, and they may indeed not
recognize a soul in a room full of people they ought to know.
That would not generally be the case for someone who is just
face blind.

If we go to a large street fair in our neighborhood, my partner
will recognize many dozens of people he has seen before.  I may
only recognize a few.  If I am invited to a party where I really
don't know anyone, I can spot a few, due to unusual clothing,
height, or traits that work well for me.  I realize these few
can mill about the party and maintain a unique identity.  I will
seek them out to meet.  These instances are what I meant about
seeking out those you CAN recognize.

I recall one party where there were about fifty guys there I'd
characterize as "yuppies".  There was one couple there where
one of them was six foot six, and the other was about five foot
four with a long ponytail.  He was also Latino.  This couple
was the only people I knew I could find after a trip to the
punchbowl.  I spent the evening mainly talking to them.

As for the second situation, where I'm in a small group, and
assuming the others not all in a uniform or unusually similar,
I make a point of noticing the clothing, hair, or something
that will make each unique for the day, and this works just
fine.  Yeah, you have to make a conscious effort to remember
something about each one, but it can be done.  If you can't do
this, you have more visual problems than just face blindness.

From what I've heard, more face blind people have additional
visual deficits than not, so don't be surprised if you don't
do as well as I do.  I was extensively tested and found to have
no other deficits in the visual realm, so my observations might
help one know where he stands.

Bill

> >Nancy:
> >
> >> There are other things that teachers or teachers and students could do
> >> to make things easier for the child...For example, the teacher could
> >> constantly call people by their names..."Robert, what do you think?
> >> Betty, do you agree?" This would be particularly important on class
> >> trips, etc.
> >
> >Glenn:
> >
> >I agree with this wholeheartedly.
>
>Bill:
>
>The operative question would be, "Does the FB kid need to know who
>these people are at the moment?" and weigh that against the
>distraction of altering the usual procedure.  Telling the FB kid
>that Betty is answering won't help much if the FB kid can't chat
>Betty up at the moment.  It's not like he's going to find her
>on the playground tomorrow because the teacher called her Betty.
>


<snip>


>Bill:
>
>Ever try to count the number of goldfish in a bowl?  It's a lot easier
>to count books on a shelf because they aren't moving.  Similarly, the
>recess lot is tough.  In the classroom was not such a big problem.
>You knew who the kids were by where they sat and what the teacher
>called them.  Because they weren't moving, you had plenty of time
>to think about it and sort them out.
>

For me it would help if the teacher used names. That would give me a firm
base for memorizing things like "Betty has a green jacket" or "This is what
Boris (or his hair or whatever) looks like. That is a technique I use almost
every day. Waiting for someone to name the persons around me so I can
memorize who is who, or can call on them again if I need to.

(I had one incident today where I talked to a guy for probably 10 or 15
minutes wondering who he was. Finally he logged into a computer program
using his own name, so now I know who he was.)

:-)
Cecilia Burman


www.prosopagnosia.com/cb



_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp

<snip>

> > Nancy:
> >
> > > Second, I would suggest that the parent speak with the teacher and
> > ask
> > > the following...After perhaps giving the teacher a list of websites
> > > related to faceblindness (for the teacher's education), perhaps asking
> > > if it might be possible to have some kinds of name tags on kids desks
> > > in the class...For example, on the front of the desk...It could be
> > in
> > > some out of the way place that could, nonetheless, be seen...
> >
> > Glenn:
> >
> > The real problem with this, Nancy, is that the other kids will invariably
> > ask such questions as "Why do we have to do this?"  Also, what do you
> > propose to do with the inevitable students who switch desks knowing
> > this
> > very fact?
>
> Nancy:
>
> What I would suggest is for example, on the first day of school, the
> teacher has cards on the kids' desks...Not on top, but in front...so
> that the faceblind person would have access to the cards, but they wouldn't
> be in the way...The teacher wouldn't need to give an explanation..."Good
> morning, everybody...Welcome...Could you all please write your names?
>  I'd like you to make a little sign for your desk for the year..."
>
> And yes, switching desks is a huge problem, but I guess that the cards
> on desks might be a start...?

Glenn:

Sure, it might be a start, but don't forget how observant kids can be,
especially those who are not face blind.  How long do you think it will
take them to notice that one fellow student in their class never looks at
their face, and always looks at their name card?

<snip>

> > Nancy:
> >
> > > I don't know anybody else's opinion (who is faceblind), but I
> > > personally don't find that photos help very much...I have actually
> > > tried studying photos, to no avail...They are simply not useful...but
> > > a layout of the class for the kid to think about at home might be
> > > useful...I'm not sure whether this would be useful or not, but maybe
> > > for instance a parent could do the following:
> > >
> > > Have a map of the class...
> > > As an activity at night, think of things about each child...So, I
> > see
> > > that Boris is in your class...
> >
> > Glenn:
> >
> > And here, the average faceblind child will say "Boris?  Who the heck
> > is
> > Boris?" thus cutting short this form of communication.
>
> Nancy:
>
> Okay...You have a point...But don't you think that there is some memory
> of names?

Glenn:

Personally, I was always overwhelmed in large groups of people (still am,
actually) and a large group of names was never that helpful in relieving my
sense of being overwhelmed.  The ideal solution, of course, is the use of
name tags, until such time as the other students in the class get bored
of using them and/or decide that switching name tags is a fun game to play.

For large groups of people, you get to hear names often enough among that
group that you can remember the names independantly, but associating those
names with actual people is another task entirely.

> Glenn:
>
> This would
> > have
> > to be completely parent-driven, and the parent will have to know all
> > of
> > the kids in the class on at least an equal with the teacher, if not
> > knowing
> > even more about them.
>
> Nancy:
>
> Could you clarify the part above, please? I'm not sure what your idea
> is...

Glenn:

In order to jog a useful reminder for the child, the parent will have to
know a lot about the individual students.  Any teacher can tell you that
their knowledge of specific students has to be very very good for them
to feel that their teaching methods are going to work with those students.
Lacking the neccessary knowledge, teachers may also find that sparking
interest from their students in their particular teaching subjects can also
be quite taxing.

If the parent is to hope to make a useful impact on the child's knowledge
of the people in the class, they will have to know as much information about
the students in the class as the teacher knows.

> Glenn:
>
> > Also, again, mapping out a class is only good if people consistantly
> > stay
> > in the same seats.  Children tend to do this if seats are not assigned
> > (adults
> > too, for that matter) but there is no guarantee this will always be
> > the case.
>
> Nancy:
>
> Yes,I appreciate what you are saying...and I agree that switching seats
> is problematic... but I do think that it could help to have something
> like this for the kids to think about...I'm even wondering whether such
> an exercise (or map or looking at one) would aid in recall simply by
> offering the kinds of cues which the child could understand...

Glenn:

Yes, it would most certainly provide another clue in the recognition process,
but thats all it would be, i.e., another clue.  You already know that we need
all the clues we can get, and that at least a third of them are misleading
from the outset anyway.

Nancy:

> What helps
> me, personally, is nametags and others saying the names...
>
> or...what if the cues were faceblind friendly cues?  Long, brown hair...funny
> walk...wears glasses?  That only sometimes helps me...

Glenn:

I agree with all of the above.

<snip>

> > Nancy:
> >
> > > Very importantly is the fact that faceblindness might also be
> > > associated with other learning style issues such as dyslexia...
> >
> > Glenn:
> >
> > Even stranger, or maybe not to this group of people, some people regularly
> > confuse
> > the two, and I don't think such people are dyslexic.
>
> Nancy:
>
> When you say that you don't think such people are dyslexic, are you referring
> to faceblind people?

Glenn:

No, I was referring specifically to those people who think that face blindness
and dyslexia are the same thing.

Nancy:

> If so, I'm afraid that I would need to differ with
> you on that...I think that a faceblind person can also be dyslexic, but
> that the two do not necessarily come together...So I'm not saying that
> I think that all faceblind people are dyslexic, but that the two can
> occur together...I have observed some association...and yes, I see the
> two as being separate...such phenomena as extreme difficulty with directions,
> difficulty with remembering chronology are also associated with dyslexia...

Glenn:

ahhh, but they are not associated, strictly speaking, with face blindness,
despite the fact that many of us face blind people also have these difficulties.

> > Nancy:
> >
> > > If your
> > > child flips letters or exhibits other symptoms that you see on
> > > dyslexia websites, I would recommend a book called the Gift of
> > > Dyslexia and vigilance in assuring that the child get an excellent
> > > learning experience...If I think of anything else, I'll send it
> > > separately...
> >
> > Glenn:
> >
> > Just be very very careful at making the proper distinctions here:
> > While there are some things in common between face blindness and
> > dyslexia, it is really only at the very essence of failure of
> > properly recognizing "something" in which they coalesce.
>
> Nancy:
>
> I'm a little unclear about what you're saying here...or perhaps I was
> not clear in my previous statements...I'm not saying that I think that
> faceblind people have dyslexia or even that faceblindness and dyslexia
> are the same or come together...I'm saying that I think that it would
> be wise to be thorough in exploring the person's potential and style
> as a learner to discover whether the child also has dyslexia...

Glenn:

I agree with this.

> Glenn:
>
>  The
> > social ramifications of the two are very different.
>
> Nancy:
>
> I would like to add (as a teacher)....unless the gift is discovered and
> the extraordinary potential tapped...

Glenn:

Even so, both are "isolating conditions" in their own way.  The only
way to alleviate the sense of isolation is to find multiple people with
the same condition, and allow them to interact with each other freely
in an "invite only" type of environment.  Only then can real sharing of
ideas and experiencing and feelings occur.

> Glenn:
>
>  I don't mean
> > to say one is "better" or "worse" for the child than the other,
> > but they are different, and htey can both be socially isolating in
> >
> > their own ways.
>
> Nancy:
>
> Yes, or darn confusing!

Glenn:

I agree with that!

> > Nancy:
> >
> > > Your child is entitled to an excellent education that
> > > meets his or her needs as a learner...If your child already has other
> > > learning style issues, in addition to faceblindness, your teacher
> > may
> > > not know how to address those needs...It might be good for you to
> > be
> > > resourceful in determining how your child can get the best possible
> > > education and spend his or her time well...
> >
> > Glenn:
> >
> > I agree with this.  The parent is ALWAYS the best possible advocate
> > for
> > the child.
> >
> > Nancy:
> >
> > > Okay, that's all for now...I'm tired! Take care, everybody...
> > >
> > > Nancy
> >
> > Glenn
> >
>
> Nancy:
>
> Good to hear the ideas, Glenn!

Glenn:

Thanks Nancy!  And I have plenty more ideas where those came from. ;-)

Glenn

bill@... wrote:
>
> >Nancy:
> >
> >> Second, I would suggest that the parent speak with the teacher and ask
> >> the following...After perhaps giving the teacher a list of websites
> >> related to faceblindness (for the teacher's education), perhaps asking
> >> if it might be possible to have some kinds of name tags on kids desks
> >> in the class...For example, on the front of the desk...It could be in
> >> some out of the way place that could, nonetheless, be seen...
> >
> >Glenn:
> >
> >The real problem with this, Nancy, is that the other kids will invariably
> >ask such questions as "Why do we have to do this?"  Also, what do you
> >propose to do with the inevitable students who switch desks knowing this
> >very fact?
>
> Bill:
>
> My experience is that, with adults even, you don't get accommodations
> in groups bigger than a handful of people.  As an adult I know to
> stick close to the few people I CAN recognize in a group.  Also,
> in small groups once you ascertain who people are, you can follow
> them because their clothes and hair are unique enough.

Glenn:

This might work very well for you, Bill, but perhaps not so well for
the rest of us.  For example, I always found ascertaining who people are
based on clothing to be useful only on a short-term basis.  Its not useful,
for example, to know that Sally was wearing a red shirt YESTERDAY if you
want to recognize her TODAY.

Bill:

> For a kid, I can imagine him remembering "Tommy has on the blue shirt
> today," that sort of thing.  The main accommodation might just be
> kids being told the nice thing to do is tell the face blind kid who
> they are if he asks.  I'd bet that is what they're told to do for
> a totally blind kid.  The face blind kid can track them a lot better,
> though, once he notices what they're wearing.

Glenn:

A totally blind kid, though, has the distinct advantage here in that, if
desired, the other kids can close their eyes and actually imagine (albeit
in a very superficial sense) what being blind is like.  How do you express
to a probably already uninterested student the significance of not being
able to recognize people?  Either one of us faceblind people could express
the problems involved in that very well, but creating workable solutions
is another matter entirely, and may not even be possible in all such settings.

Bill:

> One accommodation for "one of ours" on a playground might be to
> not expect him to play in a large group.  We usually do okay in
> small ones, because there we can find out who people are and
> keep track of them.

Glenn:

Personally, I never played much in large groups to start with.
Small groups were always much better for me as well, and in fact,
still are.

Bill:

> In a classroom, the thing to do is just not ask the face blind
> kid to do things like hand out papers.  I'd bet they don't have
> totally blind kids do that either.

Glenn:

This is a no-brainer for us, Bill.  Your average teacher, bright as they
are, often fails to make this realization.  Again, it is the parent which
MUST make this point to the teacher.

Bill:

> I don't think I ever encountered a test where I had to recognize
> faces - you know, write names under pictures of presidents, for
> example.  If that should actually happen, a face blind kid would
> need to be excused from that.  As would a totally blind kid be.
>
> Keep in mind neither I, nor any of my teachers, knew I was
> face blind.  I realize I survived there just like I do now as
> an adult.  Same techniques:  pick easy people, keep groups
> small, and ask if you don't know.
>
> There are also times to just realize it is hopeless and kick
> back and let it all happen in front of you while you don't
> participate.

Glenn:

I do this quite regularly, actually.  ;-)

> >Nancy:
> >
> >> There are other things that teachers or teachers and students could do
> >> to make things easier for the child...For example, the teacher could
> >> constantly call people by their names..."Robert, what do you think?
> >> Betty, do you agree?" This would be particularly important on class
> >> trips, etc.
> >
> >Glenn:
> >
> >I agree with this wholeheartedly.
>
> Bill:
>
> The operative question would be, "Does the FB kid need to know who
> these people are at the moment?" and weigh that against the
> distraction of altering the usual procedure.  Telling the FB kid
> that Betty is answering won't help much if the FB kid can't chat
> Betty up at the moment.  It's not like he's going to find her
> on the playground tomorrow because the teacher called her Betty.

Glenn:

True, but its useful within the context of the social situation.

I always found it helpful when people would give me these "identity
morsels", and even though I didn't (and still don't) make a point of
acknowledging them with anything more than a brief nod of the head,
I have occasionally told people that I really appreciate it when they
give me this information, but at the particular moment in question,
I don't think it is always appropriate to acknowledge my gratitude in
any other manner.

<snip>

> >Nancy:
> >
> >> Your child is entitled to an excellent education that
> >> meets his or her needs as a learner...If your child already has other
> >> learning style issues, in addition to faceblindness, your teacher may
> >> not know how to address those needs...It might be good for you to be
> >> resourceful in determining how your child can get the best possible
> >> education and spend his or her time well...
> >
> >Glenn:
> >
> >I agree with this.  The parent is ALWAYS the best possible advocate for
> >the child.
>
> Bill:
>
> Personal experience tells me "not always".

Glenn:

I did say "best possible", and I chose those words quite carefully.
If I had said "best" instead, your comments below, Bill, would be
quite correct.

The parent has the opportunity to make things at least a little easier for
their face blind child.  That doesn't guarantee, however, that they will
make the neccessary effort to do so.

> Some impaired kids have
> the misfortune to have parents who want a "normal" kid so bad they
> go into denial - to the point their behavior spawns actions abusive
> to the kid.  Such parents may not only not advocate for a kid, but
> may sense his vulnerabilities and use them to psychologically
> abuse him.  Since it would not harm an ordinary child to have
> those vulnerabilities transgressed, no one reports the activity as
> abuse.  Thusly the parents get away with getting back at the
> disabled child for coming into their lives.
>
> Bill

Glenn

Nancy's response to part of what's below:

Bill, there are many thoughtful ideas that I would like to respond to,
but I'm going to be late for work!  I do want to say, before I forget,
though, that I would do for a faceblind person what I might do for a
blind person...Personally, I find it tremendously helpful when people
use names...There might also be an issue of different styles...There
are different styles of faceblind people, just as there are of other
people...and different levels of faceblindness...I find it to be useful
and important to know who is saying what...For example, although I don't
remember what you look like (from your photo, except that I know you
have a beard and long hair and jeans), I do remember many things that
you have said, your ideas...same goes for Glenn...That information is
important to me, not only for the moment, but in attempting to understand
and know others...)I would say that the same courtesies that would be
given a blind person ought to be give a faceblind person...with MANY
qualifications...that I don't have time to make right now, unfortunately!!!I
also think that there are different levels or severity of faceblind...(as
I believe you've said...

That's all I've written in this letter!

Take care!

--
Nancy Laurie
nancylaurie@... - email
(617) 250-0000 x2474 - voicemail/fax



---- bill@... wrote:
> >Nancy:
> >
> >> Second, I would suggest that the parent speak with the teacher and
> ask
> >> the following...After perhaps giving the teacher a list of websites
> >> related to faceblindness (for the teacher's education), perhaps
> asking
> >> if it might be possible to have some kinds of name tags on kids
> desks
> >> in the class...For example, on the front of the desk...It could
> be in
> >> some out of the way place that could, nonetheless, be seen...
> >
> >Glenn:
> >
> >The real problem with this, Nancy, is that the other kids will invariably
> >ask such questions as "Why do we have to do this?"  Also, what do
> you
> >propose to do with the inevitable students who switch desks knowing
> this
> >very fact?
>
> Bill:
>
> My experience is that, with adults even, you don't get accommodations
> in groups bigger than a handful of people.  As an adult I know to
> stick close to the few people I CAN recognize in a group.  Also,
> in small groups once you ascertain who people are, you can follow
> them because their clothes and hair are unique enough.
>
> For a kid, I can imagine him remembering "Tommy has on the blue shirt
> today," that sort of thing.  The main accommodation might just be
> kids being told the nice thing to do is tell the face blind kid who
> they are if he asks.  I'd bet that is what they're told to do for
> a totally blind kid.  The face blind kid can track them a lot better,
> though, once he notices what they're wearing.
>
> One accommodation for "one of ours" on a playground might be to
> not expect him to play in a large group.  We usually do okay in
> small ones, because there we can find out who people are and
> keep track of them.
>
> In a classroom, the thing to do is just not ask the face blind
> kid to do things like hand out papers.  I'd bet they don't have
> totally blind kids do that either.
>
> I don't think I ever encountered a test where I had to recognize
> faces - you know, write names under pictures of presidents, for
> example.  If that should actually happen, a face blind kid would
> need to be excused from that.  As would a totally blind kid be.
>
> Keep in mind neither I, nor any of my teachers, knew I was
> face blind.  I realize I survived there just like I do now as
> an adult.  Same techniques:  pick easy people, keep groups
> small, and ask if you don't know.
>
> There are also times to just realize it is hopeless and kick
> back and let it all happen in front of you while you don't
> participate.
>
> >Nancy:
> >
> >> There are other things that teachers or teachers and students could
> do
> >> to make things easier for the child...For example, the teacher could
> >> constantly call people by their names..."Robert, what do you think?
> >> Betty, do you agree?" This would be particularly important on class
> >> trips, etc.
> >
> >Glenn:
> >
> >I agree with this wholeheartedly.
>
> Bill:
>
> The operative question would be, "Does the FB kid need to know who
> these people are at the moment?" and weigh that against the
> distraction of altering the usual procedure.  Telling the FB kid
> that Betty is answering won't help much if the FB kid can't chat
> Betty up at the moment.  It's not like he's going to find her
> on the playground tomorrow because the teacher called her Betty.
>
> As I recall teachers called kids by name a lot anyway.  I knew who
> was in what seats.  It was out in the recess yard I had trouble,
> and I seldom could connect those people to the ones at their desks
> who I knew.
>
> I think all my teachers assigned us a seat, so we always knew
> who was where.  They did that to take attendance if nothing
> else.  When I got to college then you could sit wherever you
> wanted.  I had certain friends and they were always guys I
> could recognize.  I would sit with them.  :-)
>
> >Nancy:
> >
> >> I don't know anybody else's opinion (who is faceblind), but I
> >> personally don't find that photos help very much...I have actually
> >> tried studying photos, to no avail...They are simply not useful...but
> >> a layout of the class for the kid to think about at home might be
> >> useful...I'm not sure whether this would be useful or not, but maybe
> >> for instance a parent could do the following:
> >>
> >> Have a map of the class...
> >> As an activity at night, think of things about each child...So,
> I see
> >> that Boris is in your class...
> >
> >Glenn:
> >
> >And here, the average faceblind child will say "Boris?  Who the heck
> is
> >Boris?" thus cutting short this form of communication.  This would
> have
> >to be completely parent-driven, and the parent will have to know all
> of
> >the kids in the class on at least an equal with the teacher, if not
> knowing
> >even more about them.
> >
> >Also, again, mapping out a class is only good if people consistantly
> stay
> >in the same seats.  Children tend to do this if seats are not assigned
> (adults
> >too, for that matter) but there is no guarantee this will always be
> the case.
>
> Bill:
>
> Ever try to count the number of goldfish in a bowl?  It's a lot easier
> to count books on a shelf because they aren't moving.  Similarly, the
> recess lot is tough.  In the classroom was not such a big problem.
> You knew who the kids were by where they sat and what the teacher
> called them.  Because they weren't moving, you had plenty of time
> to think about it and sort them out.
>
> Not that you cared, because you would never find them on the recess
> lot anyway, unless they were special-looking to you.  Then you could
> find them anyway.
>
> The way I dealt with kids in my school was to pick out the ten or
> so I could find anywhere, and befriend those.  Or try to anyway.
> Now I look back and realize this is no different than a new immigrant
> kid seeking out kids who speak Spanish.
>
> When I went into the cafeteria, I would sit by people I knew, and
> if I didn't recognize anybody, I'd sit by people I'd like to know
> because they were recognizable.
>
> >Nancy:
> >
> >> Your child is entitled to an excellent education that
> >> meets his or her needs as a learner...If your child already has
> other
> >> learning style issues, in addition to faceblindness, your teacher
> may
> >> not know how to address those needs...It might be good for you to
> be
> >> resourceful in determining how your child can get the best possible
> >> education and spend his or her time well...
> >
> >Glenn:
> >
> >I agree with this.  The parent is ALWAYS the best possible advocate
> for
> >the child.
>
> Bill:
>
> Personal experience tells me "not always".  Some impaired kids have
> the misfortune to have parents who want a "normal" kid so bad they
> go into denial - to the point their behavior spawns actions abusive
> to the kid.  Such parents may not only not advocate for a kid, but
> may sense his vulnerabilities and use them to psychologically
> abuse him.  Since it would not harm an ordinary child to have
> those vulnerabilities transgressed, no one reports the activity as
> abuse.  Thusly the parents get away with getting back at the
> disabled child for coming into their lives.
>
> Bill
>
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> faceblind-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
>

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>
> Glenn:
>
> Don't worry about thinking out loud.  Some of the best stuff from this
> list
> comes out in such fassions.
>

Nancy:

Thanks, Glenn.
> Nancy:
>
> > First, I think that it would help for the parent to get some kind
> of
> > medical documentation, if that is possible and available...That is
> > because there is so little known about faceblindness that I think
> it
> > might be difficult for the parent to get the teacher to take requests
> > for consideration seriously without this.
>
> Glenn:
>
> Finding somebody to conclusively give such a diagnosis is the problem
> here.
> I agree with the reasons for getting one, but actually getting one
> can be
> a lot trickier.

Nancy:

Yes, I absolutely agree.
>
> Nancy:
>
> > Second, I would suggest that the parent speak with the teacher and
> ask
> > the following...After perhaps giving the teacher a list of websites
> > related to faceblindness (for the teacher's education), perhaps asking
> > if it might be possible to have some kinds of name tags on kids desks
> > in the class...For example, on the front of the desk...It could be
> in
> > some out of the way place that could, nonetheless, be seen...
>
> Glenn:
>
> The real problem with this, Nancy, is that the other kids will invariably
> ask such questions as "Why do we have to do this?"  Also, what do you
> propose to do with the inevitable students who switch desks knowing
> this
> very fact?

Nancy:

What I would suggest is for example, on the first day of school, the
teacher has cards on the kids' desks...Not on top, but in front...so
that the faceblind person would have access to the cards, but they wouldn't
be in the way...The teacher wouldn't need to give an explanation..."Good
morning, everybody...Welcome...Could you all please write your names?
  I'd like you to make a little sign for your desk for the year..."

And yes, switching desks is a huge problem, but I guess that the cards
on desks might be a start...?
> Nancy:

> > There are other things that teachers or teachers and students could
> do
> > to make things easier for the child...For example, the teacher could
> > constantly call people by their names..."Robert, what do you think?
> > Betty, do you agree?" This would be particularly important on class
> > trips, etc.
>
> Glenn:
>
> I agree with this wholeheartedly.
>
> Nancy:
>
> > I don't know anybody else's opinion (who is faceblind), but I
> > personally don't find that photos help very much...I have actually
> > tried studying photos, to no avail...They are simply not useful...but
> > a layout of the class for the kid to think about at home might be
> > useful...I'm not sure whether this would be useful or not, but maybe
> > for instance a parent could do the following:
> >
> > Have a map of the class...
> > As an activity at night, think of things about each child...So, I
> see
> > that Boris is in your class...
>
> Glenn:
>
> And here, the average faceblind child will say "Boris?  Who the heck
> is
> Boris?" thus cutting short this form of communication.


Nancy:

Okay...You have a point...But don't you think that there is some memory
of names?

Glenn:

This would
> have
> to be completely parent-driven, and the parent will have to know all
> of
> the kids in the class on at least an equal with the teacher, if not
> knowing
> even more about them.

Nancy:

Could you clarify the part above, please? I'm not sure what your idea
is...

Glenn:

> Also, again, mapping out a class is only good if people consistantly
> stay
> in the same seats.  Children tend to do this if seats are not assigned
> (adults
> too, for that matter) but there is no guarantee this will always be
> the case.

Nancy:

Yes,I appreciate what you are saying...and I agree that switching seats
is problematic... but I do think that it could help to have something
like this for the kids to think about...I'm even wondering whether such
an exercise (or map or looking at one) would aid in recall simply by
offering the kinds of cues which the child could understand...What helps
me, personally, is nametags and others saying the names...

or...what if the cues were faceblind friendly cues?  Long, brown hair...funny
walk...wears glasses?  That only sometimes helps me...

> Nancy:
>
> > Tell me some things about him...Let's
> > write them on this class plan, here, in the square that represents
> his
> > desk...Letsee...Boris likes baseball, he's a loud kid, etc...
>
> Glenn:
>
> Again, this one has to be parent driven.  The child will notice the
> "loud kid"
> part, but probably will have difficulty associating that with "Boris".
>  "Liking
> baseball" would be useful for knowledge on the playground, perhaps,
> but not for
> recognition elsewhere.  "So, he likes baseball...how come I never see
> him play
> baseball in class?"

Nancy:

Hmmmm...
>
> Nancy:
>
> > Maybe
> > this would help the child to reinforce the points of reference that
> he
> >  or she does have.
> >
> > Personally, I think that showing pictures, etc. would be like trying
> > to teach a fish to fly by showing it a picture of a bird!  (Am I
> going
> > to have to take this statement back later?  Has anyone found photos
> to
> > be effective?)
>
> Glenn:
>
> When I was younger, part of the stuff I was doing with various people
> was
> trying to learn to identify specific people (those in my classroom)
> by
> picture, both teachers and students.  At the time, I was in what was
> called
> a Consortium classroom.  It was for Special Ed. kids, most of whom
> had
> behavioral issues.  It turned out that, after a very long time, these
> pictures
> did seem to help me (based on others observations about this, cause
> I really
> couldn't personally tell one way or the other) but again, I was in
> a very small
> class with a student:teacher ration of 2:1, and at most, there were
> 7 students
> in the classroom.  The number of students varied from year to year.
>
> To sum up, yes the picures seemed to help me, but they took an extraordinary
>
> period of time to have a useful effect for me.  I can't say for certain
> that
> the pictures alone were what helped me, though.  I have my doubts about
> that.
>
> Nancy:
>
> > Very importantly is the fact that faceblindness might also be
> > associated with other learning style issues such as dyslexia...
>
> Glenn:
>
> Even stranger, or maybe not to this group of people, some people regularly
> confuse
> the two, and I don't think such people are dyslexic.

Nancy:

When you say that you don't think such people are dyslexic, are you referring
to faceblind people?  If so, I'm afraid that I would need to differ with
you on that...I think that a faceblind person can also be dyslexic, but
that the two do not necessarily come together...So I'm not saying that
I think that all faceblind people are dyslexic, but that the two can
occur together...I have observed some association...and yes, I see the
two as being separate...such phenomena as extreme difficulty with directions,
difficulty with remembering chronology are also associated with dyslexia...
>
> Nancy:
>
> > If your
> > child flips letters or exhibits other symptoms that you see on
> > dyslexia websites, I would recommend a book called the Gift of
> > Dyslexia and vigilance in assuring that the child get an excellent
> > learning experience...If I think of anything else, I'll send it
> > separately...
>
> Glenn:
>
> Just be very very careful at making the proper distinctions here:
> While there are some things in common between face blindness and
> dyslexia, it is really only at the very essence of failure of
> properly recognizing "something" in which they coalesce.

Nancy:

I'm a little unclear about what you're saying here...or perhaps I was
not clear in my previous statements...I'm not saying that I think that
faceblind people have dyslexia or even that faceblindness and dyslexia
are the same or come together...I'm saying that I think that it would
be wise to be thorough in exploring the person's potential and style
as a learner to discover whether the child also has dyslexia...
Glenn:

  The
> social ramifications of the two are very different.

Nancy:

I would like to add (as a teacher)....unless the gift is discovered and
the extraordinary potential tapped...

Glenn:

  I don't mean
> to say one is "better" or "worse" for the child than the other,
> but they are different, and htey can both be socially isolating in
>
> their own ways.

Nancy:

Yes, or darn confusing!
>
> Nancy:
>
> > Your child is entitled to an excellent education that
> > meets his or her needs as a learner...If your child already has other
> > learning style issues, in addition to faceblindness, your teacher
> may
> > not know how to address those needs...It might be good for you to
> be
> > resourceful in determining how your child can get the best possible
> > education and spend his or her time well...
>
> Glenn:
>
> I agree with this.  The parent is ALWAYS the best possible advocate
> for
> the child.
>
> Nancy:
>
> > Okay, that's all for now...I'm tired! Take care, everybody...
> >
> > Nancy
>
> Glenn
>

Nancy:

Good to hear the ideas, Glenn!
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> faceblind-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
>

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>Nancy:
>
>> Second, I would suggest that the parent speak with the teacher and ask
>> the following...After perhaps giving the teacher a list of websites
>> related to faceblindness (for the teacher's education), perhaps asking
>> if it might be possible to have some kinds of name tags on kids desks
>> in the class...For example, on the front of the desk...It could be in
>> some out of the way place that could, nonetheless, be seen...
>
>Glenn:
>
>The real problem with this, Nancy, is that the other kids will invariably
>ask such questions as "Why do we have to do this?"  Also, what do you
>propose to do with the inevitable students who switch desks knowing this
>very fact?

Bill:

My experience is that, with adults even, you don't get accommodations
in groups bigger than a handful of people.  As an adult I know to
stick close to the few people I CAN recognize in a group.  Also,
in small groups once you ascertain who people are, you can follow
them because their clothes and hair are unique enough.

For a kid, I can imagine him remembering "Tommy has on the blue shirt
today," that sort of thing.  The main accommodation might just be
kids being told the nice thing to do is tell the face blind kid who
they are if he asks.  I'd bet that is what they're told to do for
a totally blind kid.  The face blind kid can track them a lot better,
though, once he notices what they're wearing.

One accommodation for "one of ours" on a playground might be to
not expect him to play in a large group.  We usually do okay in
small ones, because there we can find out who people are and
keep track of them.

In a classroom, the thing to do is just not ask the face blind
kid to do things like hand out papers.  I'd bet they don't have
totally blind kids do that either.

I don't think I ever encountered a test where I had to recognize
faces - you know, write names under pictures of presidents, for
example.  If that should actually happen, a face blind kid would
need to be excused from that.  As would a totally blind kid be.

Keep in mind neither I, nor any of my teachers, knew I was
face blind.  I realize I survived there just like I do now as
an adult.  Same techniques:  pick easy people, keep groups
small, and ask if you don't know.

There are also times to just realize it is hopeless and kick
back and let it all happen in front of you while you don't
participate.

>Nancy:
>
>> There are other things that teachers or teachers and students could do
>> to make things easier for the child...For example, the teacher could
>> constantly call people by their names..."Robert, what do you think?
>> Betty, do you agree?" This would be particularly important on class
>> trips, etc.
>
>Glenn:
>
>I agree with this wholeheartedly.

Bill:

The operative question would be, "Does the FB kid need to know who
these people are at the moment?" and weigh that against the
distraction of altering the usual procedure.  Telling the FB kid
that Betty is answering won't help much if the FB kid can't chat
Betty up at the moment.  It's not like he's going to find her
on the playground tomorrow because the teacher called her Betty.

As I recall teachers called kids by name a lot anyway.  I knew who
was in what seats.  It was out in the recess yard I had trouble,
and I seldom could connect those people to the ones at their desks
who I knew.

I think all my teachers assigned us a seat, so we always knew
who was where.  They did that to take attendance if nothing
else.  When I got to college then you could sit wherever you
wanted.  I had certain friends and they were always guys I
could recognize.  I would sit with them.  :-)

>Nancy:
>
>> I don't know anybody else's opinion (who is faceblind), but I
>> personally don't find that photos help very much...I have actually
>> tried studying photos, to no avail...They are simply not useful...but
>> a layout of the class for the kid to think about at home might be
>> useful...I'm not sure whether this would be useful or not, but maybe
>> for instance a parent could do the following:
>>
>> Have a map of the class...
>> As an activity at night, think of things about each child...So, I see
>> that Boris is in your class...
>
>Glenn:
>
>And here, the average faceblind child will say "Boris?  Who the heck is
>Boris?" thus cutting short this form of communication.  This would have
>to be completely parent-driven, and the parent will have to know all of
>the kids in the class on at least an equal with the teacher, if not knowing
>even more about them.
>
>Also, again, mapping out a class is only good if people consistantly stay
>in the same seats.  Children tend to do this if seats are not assigned (adults
>too, for that matter) but there is no guarantee this will always be the case.

Bill:

Ever try to count the number of goldfish in a bowl?  It's a lot easier
to count books on a shelf because they aren't moving.  Similarly, the
recess lot is tough.  In the classroom was not such a big problem.
You knew who the kids were by where they sat and what the teacher
called them.  Because they weren't moving, you had plenty of time
to think about it and sort them out.

Not that you cared, because you would never find them on the recess
lot anyway, unless they were special-looking to you.  Then you could
find them anyway.

The way I dealt with kids in my school was to pick out the ten or
so I could find anywhere, and befriend those.  Or try to anyway.
Now I look back and realize this is no different than a new immigrant
kid seeking out kids who speak Spanish.

When I went into the cafeteria, I would sit by people I knew, and
if I didn't recognize anybody, I'd sit by people I'd like to know
because they were recognizable.

>Nancy:
>
>> Your child is entitled to an excellent education that
>> meets his or her needs as a learner...If your child already has other
>> learning style issues, in addition to faceblindness, your teacher may
>> not know how to address those needs...It might be good for you to be
>> resourceful in determining how your child can get the best possible
>> education and spend his or her time well...
>
>Glenn:
>
>I agree with this.  The parent is ALWAYS the best possible advocate for
>the child.

Bill:

Personal experience tells me "not always".  Some impaired kids have
the misfortune to have parents who want a "normal" kid so bad they
go into denial - to the point their behavior spawns actions abusive
to the kid.  Such parents may not only not advocate for a kid, but
may sense his vulnerabilities and use them to psychologically
abuse him.  Since it would not harm an ordinary child to have
those vulnerabilities transgressed, no one reports the activity as
abuse.  Thusly the parents get away with getting back at the
disabled child for coming into their lives.

Bill

Nancy:

> I was thinking about the issue of what kind of information might help
> the family of a faceblind child...Here are some thoughts...I must
> admit that I'm sort of thinking out loud, but here goes...

Glenn:

Don't worry about thinking out loud.  Some of the best stuff from this list
comes out in such fassions.

Nancy:

> First, I think that it would help for the parent to get some kind of
> medical documentation, if that is possible and available...That is
> because there is so little known about faceblindness that I think it
> might be difficult for the parent to get the teacher to take requests
> for consideration seriously without this.

Glenn:

Finding somebody to conclusively give such a diagnosis is the problem here.
I agree with the reasons for getting one, but actually getting one can be
a lot trickier.

Nancy:

> Second, I would suggest that the parent speak with the teacher and ask
> the following...After perhaps giving the teacher a list of websites
> related to faceblindness (for the teacher's education), perhaps asking
> if it might be possible to have some kinds of name tags on kids desks
> in the class...For example, on the front of the desk...It could be in
> some out of the way place that could, nonetheless, be seen...

Glenn:

The real problem with this, Nancy, is that the other kids will invariably
ask such questions as "Why do we have to do this?"  Also, what do you
propose to do with the inevitable students who switch desks knowing this
very fact?

Nancy:

> There are other things that teachers or teachers and students could do
> to make things easier for the child...For example, the teacher could
> constantly call people by their names..."Robert, what do you think?
> Betty, do you agree?" This would be particularly important on class
> trips, etc.

Glenn:

I agree with this wholeheartedly.

Nancy:

> I don't know anybody else's opinion (who is faceblind), but I
> personally don't find that photos help very much...I have actually
> tried studying photos, to no avail...They are simply not useful...but
> a layout of the class for the kid to think about at home might be
> useful...I'm not sure whether this would be useful or not, but maybe
> for instance a parent could do the following:
>
> Have a map of the class...
> As an activity at night, think of things about each child...So, I see
> that Boris is in your class...

Glenn:

And here, the average faceblind child will say "Boris?  Who the heck is
Boris?" thus cutting short this form of communication.  This would have
to be completely parent-driven, and the parent will have to know all of
the kids in the class on at least an equal with the teacher, if not knowing
even more about them.

Also, again, mapping out a class is only good if people consistantly stay
in the same seats.  Children tend to do this if seats are not assigned (adults
too, for that matter) but there is no guarantee this will always be the case.

Nancy:

> Tell me some things about him...Let's
> write them on this class plan, here, in the square that represents his
> desk...Letsee...Boris likes baseball, he's a loud kid, etc...

Glenn:

Again, this one has to be parent driven.  The child will notice the "loud kid"
part, but probably will have difficulty associating that with "Boris".  "Liking
baseball" would be useful for knowledge on the playground, perhaps, but not for
recognition elsewhere.  "So, he likes baseball...how come I never see him play
baseball in class?"

Nancy:

> Maybe
> this would help the child to reinforce the points of reference that he
>  or she does have.
>
> Personally, I think that showing pictures, etc. would be like trying
> to teach a fish to fly by showing it a picture of a bird!  (Am I going
> to have to take this statement back later?  Has anyone found photos to
> be effective?)

Glenn:

When I was younger, part of the stuff I was doing with various people was
trying to learn to identify specific people (those in my classroom) by
picture, both teachers and students.  At the time, I was in what was called
a Consortium classroom.  It was for Special Ed. kids, most of whom had
behavioral issues.  It turned out that, after a very long time, these pictures
did seem to help me (based on others observations about this, cause I really
couldn't personally tell one way or the other) but again, I was in a very small
class with a student:teacher ration of 2:1, and at most, there were 7 students
in the classroom.  The number of students varied from year to year.

To sum up, yes the picures seemed to help me, but they took an extraordinary
period of time to have a useful effect for me.  I can't say for certain that
the pictures alone were what helped me, though.  I have my doubts about that.

Nancy:

> Very importantly is the fact that faceblindness might also be
> associated with other learning style issues such as dyslexia...

Glenn:

Even stranger, or maybe not to this group of people, some people regularly
confuse
the two, and I don't think such people are dyslexic.

Nancy:

> If your
> child flips letters or exhibits other symptoms that you see on
> dyslexia websites, I would recommend a book called the Gift of
> Dyslexia and vigilance in assuring that the child get an excellent
> learning experience...If I think of anything else, I'll send it
> separately...

Glenn:

Just be very very careful at making the proper distinctions here:
While there are some things in common between face blindness and
dyslexia, it is really only at the very essence of failure of
properly recognizing "something" in which they coalesce.  The
social ramifications of the two are very different.  I don't mean
to say one is "better" or "worse" for the child than the other,
but they are different, and htey can both be socially isolating in
their own ways.

Nancy:

> Your child is entitled to an excellent education that
> meets his or her needs as a learner...If your child already has other
> learning style issues, in addition to faceblindness, your teacher may
> not know how to address those needs...It might be good for you to be
> resourceful in determining how your child can get the best possible
> education and spend his or her time well...

Glenn:

I agree with this.  The parent is ALWAYS the best possible advocate for
the child.

Nancy:

> Okay, that's all for now...I'm tired! Take care, everybody...
>
> Nancy

Glenn

I was thinking about the issue of what kind of information might help
the family of a faceblind child...Here are some thoughts...I must
admit that I'm sort of thinking out loud, but here goes...

First, I think that it would help for the parent to get some kind of
medical documentation, if that is possible and available...That is
because there is so little known about faceblindness that I think it
might be difficult for the parent to get the teacher to take requests
for consideration seriously without this.

Second, I would suggest that the parent speak with the teacher and ask
the following...After perhaps giving the teacher a list of websites
related to faceblindness (for the teacher's education), perhaps asking
if it might be possible to have some kinds of name tags on kids desks
in the class...For example, on the front of the desk...It could be in
some out of the way place that could, nonetheless, be seen...

There are other things that teachers or teachers and students could do
to make things easier for the child...For example, the teacher could
constantly call people by their names..."Robert, what do you think?
Betty, do you agree?" This would be particularly important on class
trips, etc.

I don't know anybody else's opinion (who is faceblind), but I
personally don't find that photos help very much...I have actually
tried studying photos, to no avail...They are simply not useful...but
a layout of the class for the kid to think about at home might be
useful...I'm not sure whether this would be useful or not, but maybe
for instance a parent could do the following:

Have a map of the class...
As an activity at night, think of things about each child...So, I see
that Boris is in your class...Tell me some things about him...Let's
write them on this class plan, here, in the square that represents his
desk...Letsee...Boris likes baseball, he's a loud kid, etc...Maybe
this would help the child to reinforce the points of reference that he
  or she does have.

Personally, I think that showing pictures, etc. would be like trying
to teach a fish to fly by showing it a picture of a bird!  (Am I going
to have to take this statement back later?  Has anyone found photos to
be effective?)

Very importantly is the fact that faceblindness might also be
associated with other learning style issues such as dyslexia...If your
child flips letters or exhibits other symptoms that you see on
dyslexia websites, I would recommend a book called the Gift of
Dyslexia and vigilance in assuring that the child get an excellent
learning experience...If I think of anything else, I'll send it
separately...Your child is entitled to an excellent education that
meets his or her needs as a learner...If your child already has other
learning style issues, in addition to faceblindness, your teacher may
not know how to address those needs...It might be good for you to be
resourceful in determining how your child can get the best possible
education and spend his or her time well...

Okay, that's all for now...I'm tired! Take care, everybody...

Nancy

We have an unusual condition in which our seeing of faces is impaired
at the neurological level.  Many of us have normal vision in other
respects and pass ordinary eye tests with flying colors.

Some of us have put information on the web about this condition,
which is referred to commonly as "face blindness" and medically as
"prosopagnosia".  You can see some of this material here:

http://www.choisser.com/faceblind/ - An on-line book which I wrote
about it, which discusses the condition in great detail.

http://www.prosopagnosia.com/ - Cecilia Burman's pages.  She has a
great page comparing recognizing people to recognizing stones.  In
her visual treatise, she explains things clearly that would take
many more pages to describe in words.

http://www.anything-balloons.com/glenn/ - Glenn's pages.  Glenn
describes what it is like to be face blind and also has information
on how to join a private mail list just for those of us who have
the condition.

We have set up this group so those who wish to discuss face
blindness in an open forum may do so.  Researchers, students,
family members, and face blind people are all welcome here!