I am Valerie Bauman, a reporter for the Associated Press in Raleigh,
North Carolina. I am interested in pitching a feature story to my
editor about face blindness, but the only way it will be considered is
if I can find a local angle.

For example; I need to meet and interview someone with face blindness
and also some experts on the subject. If anyone can refer me to
people in the North Carolina (preferably the Raleigh-Durham triangle)
area it would be a great shot at a story.

I first read about the subject on Bill Choisser's Web site and
contacted him. He referred me to this yahoo group. I understand it may
be difficult to be interviewed for a story of this nature, but if
anyone is interested we could talk before any commitment is made.

A story that widens the public knowledge on this subject could be
rewarding for those who have encountered suprise and disbelief when
trying to explain faceblindness to friends, family and coworkers.

Feel free to call or email:
vbauman@...
valerie_b333@...
253.226.9865
919.833.8687

Thank you for your time,

Valerie Bauman

Hi Valerie -

Even if you do not find someone in the Raleigh-Durham Triangle
with face blindness,
a story on the subject might bring them out of the woodwork.

It seems to me that many more people than is commonly recognized live with this
condition unaware
that there are others, it is recognized, studied and documented and that they
are not alone with it.

Instead, from reading these pages, it is apparent that many people with
prosopagnosia
spend half a lifetime thinking that they are flawed, stupid, incompetant or some
such,
and try to cover up for it socially.

Recognizing it for what it is and making open accommodations can be a happier
way to go.
Understanfing and support of parents, family, friends and colleagues helps.

-Mimi
   ----- Original Message -----
   From: vbauman13
   To: faceblind@yahoogroups.com
   Sent: Tuesday, March 01, 2005 10:27 AM
   Subject: [faceblind] Possible Story



   I am Valerie Bauman, a reporter for the Associated Press in Raleigh,
   North Carolina. I am interested in pitching a feature story to my
   editor about face blindness, but the only way it will be considered is
   if I can find a local angle.

   For example; I need to meet and interview someone with face blindness
   and also some experts on the subject. If anyone can refer me to
   people in the North Carolina (preferably the Raleigh-Durham triangle)
   area it would be a great shot at a story.

   I first read about the subject on Bill Choisser's Web site and
   contacted him. He referred me to this yahoo group. I understand it may
   be difficult to be interviewed for a story of this nature, but if
   anyone is interested we could talk before any commitment is made.

   A story that widens the public knowledge on this subject could be
   rewarding for those who have encountered suprise and disbelief when
   trying to explain faceblindness to friends, family and coworkers.

   Feel free to call or email:
   vbauman@...
   valerie_b333@...
   253.226.9865
   919.833.8687

   Thank you for your time,

   Valerie Bauman




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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

My sincere  apology  to the blond's reading this. My
policy is  not  to propagate dumb blond humor except I
am passing  this joke on because I thought it was
funny as a face blind joke:

A blonde woman was speeding down the road in her
little red sports car and was pulled over by a woman
police officer, who was also a blonde.
The cop asked to see the blonde's driver's license.
She dug through her purse and was getting
progressively more agitated.

"What does it look like?" she finally asked.

The policewoman replied, "its square and it has your
picture on it."
The driver finally found a square mirror, looked at it
and handed it to the policewoman. "Here it is," she
said.

The blonde officer looked at the mirror, then handed
it back saying, "Okay, you can go. I didn't realize
you were a cop."

~~Bonnie



__________________________________
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vbauman13 wrote:

> I am Valerie Bauman, a reporter for the Associated Press in Raleigh,
> North Carolina. I am interested in pitching a feature story to my
> editor about face blindness, but the only way it will be considered is
> if I can find a local angle.

Hi Valerie!  I'm not in the Raleigh/Durham area, but I have some relatives by
marriage who are.  Does that count?  ;-)

Seriously though, it is my personal belief, and also the belief of some experts
in the field that face blindness is a condition with far more people who have
it than has ever been reported.  That being said, and as you mentioned that you
are a reporter, you might try placing an ad in a local paper for people who
experience the classic symptoms of face blindness and may not know it.  I see
postings for research studies all of hte time which begin by describing a
symptom
or list of symptoms, and then explain that they are looking for people to
participate
in their research.  I'll bet it would work fairly similarly if you posted an
advertisement in a paper or two with the same style, but offering instead an
interview about it.

<snip>

> A story that widens the public knowledge on this subject could be
> rewarding for those who have encountered suprise and disbelief when
> trying to explain faceblindness to friends, family and coworkers.

I agree completely, and I hope you are successful in your pursuit of
writing such a story.  Keep us posted.  I'm in the Boston area myself,
so if you are interested in something from Boston, or know somebody
who might be, you can pass along my e-mail address to them.

> Feel free to call or email:
> vbauman@...
> valerie_b333@...
> 253.226.9865
> 919.833.8687
>
> Thank you for your time,

Thank you for your efforts at contribution to the cause!

> Valerie Bauman

Glenn Alperin

bonnie,

my blonde daughter has a tactic of collecting blonde
jokes. she loves this one. she had that "i'm almost
bored, mom... this better be good..." look on her
face... but the punch line cracked her up.

my husband sent me the following joke a year ago...
yours is much easier to tell!

mary



True Story, of COURSE!!
>
>
> After Quasimodo's death, the bishop of the Cathedral
of Notre Dame
> sent word through the streets of Paris that a new
bell ringer was
> needed.
>
> The bishop decided that he would conduct the
interviews personally
and
> went up into the belfry to begin the screening
process.  After
> observing several applicants demonstrate their
skill, he had decided
> to call it a day.  Just then, an armless man
approached him and
> announced that he was there to apply for the bell
ringer's job.
>
> The bishop was incredulous.  "You have no arms!"
> "No matter," said the man.  "Observe!"
>
> And he began striking the bells with his face,
producing a beautiful
> melody on the carillon.  The bishop listened in
astonishment;
convinced
> he had finally found a replacement for Quasimodo.
>
> But suddenly, rushing forward to strike a bell, the
armless man
tripped
> and plunged headlong out of the belfry window to his
death in the
> street
> below.  The stunned bishop rushed to his side.  When
he reached the
> street, a crowd had gathered around the fallen
figure, drawn by the
> beautiful music they had heard only moments before.
>
> As they silently parted to let the bishop through,
one of them asked,
> "Bishop, who was this man?"
> "I don't know his name," the bishop sadly replied,
(scroll down)
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>       "BUT HIS FACE RINGS A BELL."
>
>  
>  
>
>
>
> WAIT! WAIT! There's more .............
>
> The following day, despite the sadness that weighed
heavily on his
> heart due to the unfortunate death of the armless
campanologist, the
> bishop continued his interviews for the bell ringer
of Notre Dame.
>
> The first man to approach him said, "Your
Excellency, I am the
brother
> of the poor armless wretch that fell to his death
from this very
> belfry yesterday.  I pray that you honor his life by
allowing me to
> replace him in this duty."
>
> The bishop agreed to give the man an audition, and,
as the armless
> man's brother stooped to pick up a mallet to strike
the first bell,
he
> groaned, clutched at his chest, twirled around, and
died on the spot.
>
> Two monks, hearing the bishop's cries of grief of
this second
tragedy,
> rushed up the stairs to his side.  "What has
happened?  Who is the
> man?" the first monk asked breathlessly.
>
> "I don't know his name," sighed the distraught
bishop, but
> .............
>
>
>  
>  
>                     (.....Wait for it.......)
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> (......It's worth it.......)
>
>
>
>
>
>    
>  
>          "HE"S A DEAD RINGER FOR HIS BROTHER!!!"








__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com

This is way off topic but may make your daugher chuckle.  I am blonde.  I went
to an Native American pow wow a couple of Thanksgiving's ago, and I overheard
two Native Americans telling each other a blonde joke.

I couldn't resist, "I pointed my finger at him and said in a commanding voice,
"Are you telling a blonde joke?"

He shamefacedly admitted he was. I said, "Well tell it s -l -o- w -l -y so I can
understand it too."

-----Original Message-----
From: mary zeiler <aiw4us@...>
Sent: Mar 1, 2005 4:57 PM
To: faceblind@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [faceblind] Possible Face Blind Joke


bonnie,

my blonde daughter has a tactic of collecting blonde
jokes. she loves this one. she had that "i'm almost
bored, mom... this better be good..." look on her
face... but the punch line cracked her up.

my husband sent me the following joke a year ago...
yours is much easier to tell!

mary



True Story, of COURSE!!
>
>
> After Quasimodo's death, the bishop of the Cathedral
of Notre Dame
> sent word through the streets of Paris that a new
bell ringer was
> needed.
>
> The bishop decided that he would conduct the
interviews personally
and
> went up into the belfry to begin the screening
process.  After
> observing several applicants demonstrate their
skill, he had decided
> to call it a day.  Just then, an armless man
approached him and
> announced that he was there to apply for the bell
ringer's job.
>
> The bishop was incredulous.  "You have no arms!"
> "No matter," said the man.  "Observe!"
>
> And he began striking the bells with his face,
producing a beautiful
> melody on the carillon.  The bishop listened in
astonishment;
convinced
> he had finally found a replacement for Quasimodo.
>
> But suddenly, rushing forward to strike a bell, the
armless man
tripped
> and plunged headlong out of the belfry window to his
death in the
> street
> below.  The stunned bishop rushed to his side.  When
he reached the
> street, a crowd had gathered around the fallen
figure, drawn by the
> beautiful music they had heard only moments before.
>
> As they silently parted to let the bishop through,
one of them asked,
> "Bishop, who was this man?"
> "I don't know his name," the bishop sadly replied,
(scroll down)
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>       "BUT HIS FACE RINGS A BELL."
>
>  
>  
>
>
>
> WAIT! WAIT! There's more .............
>
> The following day, despite the sadness that weighed
heavily on his
> heart due to the unfortunate death of the armless
campanologist, the
> bishop continued his interviews for the bell ringer
of Notre Dame.
>
> The first man to approach him said, "Your
Excellency, I am the
brother
> of the poor armless wretch that fell to his death
from this very
> belfry yesterday.  I pray that you honor his life by
allowing me to
> replace him in this duty."
>
> The bishop agreed to give the man an audition, and,
as the armless
> man's brother stooped to pick up a mallet to strike
the first bell,
he
> groaned, clutched at his chest, twirled around, and
died on the spot.
>
> Two monks, hearing the bishop's cries of grief of
this second
tragedy,
> rushed up the stairs to his side.  "What has
happened?  Who is the
> man?" the first monk asked breathlessly.
>
> "I don't know his name," sighed the distraught
bishop, but
> .............
>
>
>  
>  
>                     (.....Wait for it.......)
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> (......It's worth it.......)
>
>
>
>
>
>    
>  
>          "HE"S A DEAD RINGER FOR HIS BROTHER!!!"








__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com




Yahoo! Groups Links

Have any of you found that your visual memory isn't impaired just in the area of
faces, but categorically in complex objects?

I read an article yesterday stating that prosopagnosia is general Visual Agnosia
- and most prosopagnosiacs (like that word??) actually test for visual agnosia
in other areas too. However, it said, that most have learned "other methods" for
recognizing objects, but think that they are just bad at recognizing faces, so
give up on those easier.

For instance, I can't distinguish my black Ford Explorer from other black SUVs
except a bit by the general shape. When hunting for my car in the parking
garage, it can be a real trip - I had no idea how many black SUVs existed in the
world until I bought mine! I remember that mine is only a two door, has a white
SunPass box attached to the wind shield near the mirror, and then I double check
by looking at the tag before I get in.

I think because I can't remember what people look like - except the general
outline of their bodies or faces - I remember people more by the "emotional
impression" I get from them - I'm assuming this refers more to how they sounded
and the general feeling of them. It's almost like I walk through life
recognizing people by intuition or feeling, because I can't see them. Does
anyone else do this?

Jen

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hi Jen,

The question that you asked is one that psychologists and neurologists
have been trying to answer for some time.

Many prosopagnosics also have trouble recognizing non-face objects so
these individuals are both prosopagnosic and agnosic.  However, some
prosopagnosics perform normally with a wide range of non-face objects so
it appears that face agnosia and object agnosia are the result of
impairments to different mechanisms.  These mechanisms are close to one
another in the brain so when one isn't working properly it is likely that
the other will not be working properly.

Some of the best evidence showing that faces and objects are handled by
different mechanisms comes from cases which show the opposite pattern of
abilities.  There have been a number of cases reported in which brain
damage leaves individuals with severely impaired object recognition yet
normal (or relatively spared) face recognition.  One man in particular has
been studied in detail.  Mr. CK can recognize faces as well as NT
subjects, but his object recognition is really bad.  With objects, he has
trouble even telling the general category of an object (glass, ashtray,
etc.) so his problems are very severe.

Over the last fifteen years, the idea that faces and objects are handled
by different mechanisms has been supported by fMRI studies of people with
normal face and object recognition.  It turns out that different brain
areas are selectively activated by faces and objects.

Best regards,
Brad

>
> Have any of you found that your visual memory isn't impaired just in the
> area of faces, but categorically in complex objects?
>
> I read an article yesterday stating that prosopagnosia is general Visual
> Agnosia - and most prosopagnosiacs (like that word??) actually test for
> visual agnosia in other areas too. However, it said, that most have
> learned "other methods" for recognizing objects, but think that they are
> just bad at recognizing faces, so give up on those easier.
>
> For instance, I can't distinguish my black Ford Explorer from other black
> SUVs except a bit by the general shape. When hunting for my car in the
> parking garage, it can be a real trip - I had no idea how many black SUVs
> existed in the world until I bought mine! I remember that mine is only a
> two door, has a white SunPass box attached to the wind shield near the
> mirror, and then I double check by looking at the tag before I get in.
>
> I think because I can't remember what people look like - except the
> general outline of their bodies or faces - I remember people more by the
> "emotional impression" I get from them - I'm assuming this refers more to
> how they sounded and the general feeling of them. It's almost like I walk
> through life recognizing people by intuition or feeling, because I can't
> see them. Does anyone else do this?
>
> Jen
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

At 08:46 AM 3/6/2005 -0500, Jen wrote:
>
>Have any of you found that your visual memory isn't impaired just in the
area of faces, but categorically in complex objects?
>
>I read an article yesterday stating that prosopagnosia is general Visual
Agnosia - and most prosopagnosiacs (like that word??) actually test for
visual agnosia in other areas too. However, it said, that most have learned
"other methods" for recognizing objects, but think that they are just bad at
recognizing faces, so give up on those easier.

Brad at Harvard tested my visual processing extensively, and he found
I was normal in every area besides faces.  In many areas of the visual
processing test battery, he said I was actually quite a bit above normal.

>For instance, I can't distinguish my black Ford Explorer from other black
SUVs except a bit by the general shape. When hunting for my car in the
parking garage, it can be a real trip - I had no idea how many black SUVs
existed in the world until I bought mine! I remember that mine is only a two
door, has a white SunPass box attached to the wind shield near the mirror,
and then I double check by looking at the tag before I get in.

Aerodynamic requirements to achieve mandated gas mileage have caused
cars of various makes to look more and more alike as each decade has
rolled by.  Also in my case, I have no friends who ever talk about
makes of cars, like was the case when I was in high school, so I
now know almost no makes of cars by sight, other than the unusual
ones like the VW bug or the PT Cruiser.  In high school I knew most
of the makes, but they also had a lot less of them then than they
do now, since imported cars were rare.

Now we have a gray Honda Accord.  Lots of the various Hondas look
alike, other makes look quite a bit like the Honda, and gray is the
most popular color now for cars.  So I just look for a gray car
with my license plate.  There are bound to be other gray Hondas in
any lot of any size anyhow, so that is what works for me.

Am I impaired with cars?  Brad seemed to think not.  He gave me a
test with cars and I did normally with it.  However it tested the
shape of cars, not the face-like appearance of headlights and
grillework.  There have been threads before among face blind people
on cars, and the gist of them has been that cars may be made
face-like because this helps most people find theirs in parking
lots, and buyers like cars to be face-recognizable.  (Nobody needs
to find his toaster in the kitchen, for example, and this is why
toasters are not made to look like faces.)  Also, people climb INTO
cars so they become "part of their body", so for that reason too,
they like for cars to be face-like:

http://www.chevroncars.com/wocc/meet/inst.jhtml?MediaId=MeettheCarsList

So cars may not be the best test of whether you have no impairments
besides faces.

Jen, do you have problems with any objects other than cars?

>I think because I can't remember what people look like - except the general
outline of their bodies or faces - I remember people more by the "emotional
impression" I get from them - I'm assuming this refers more to how they
sounded and the general feeling of them. It's almost like I walk through
life recognizing people by intuition or feeling, because I can't see them.
Does anyone else do this?
>
>Jen

Although also used by males, that is a very common female response.
We make these ways when we are little kids.  When little girls play
with dolls, they imagine the emotional content of the playing.  When
little boys play with dolls (they'll call them "army men", of course),
they only imagine the physical situation (this group overcomes that
group, for example).  They typically would never imagine that getting
killed actually hurts.

Little girls are thus keen on the emotional content of encounters.
Boys, on the other hand, are more apt to clue in on physical traits,
such as hair, clothing, and the like.

This sex difference is not so apparent to adults, because adult men
and women grow to become more alike:

http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/c/a/2005/03/03/BAGSKBJI981.DTL

However, "the ways we tell people apart" are mostly fixed in childhood
when boys and girls are mentally quite different from each other,
and that is why adult FACE BLIND men and women can be very different
from each other.  "How we recognize and categorize others" is a most
important factor in determining how we find our niche in society.

Bill

Brad:
> Many prosopagnosics also have trouble recognizing non-face objects so
> these individuals are both prosopagnosic and agnosic.  However, some
> prosopagnosics perform normally with a wide range of non-face objects so
> it appears that face agnosia and object agnosia are the result of
> impairments to different mechanisms.  These mechanisms are close to one
> another in the brain so when one isn't working properly it is likely that
> the other will not be working properly.

I disagree. I think the difference in face recognition is genetic, and
thus need have no correspondence with other brain functions.

If the brain actually had some kind of damage, your hypothesis
would be likely, but this is rarely the case with PA.

Leif

From: <NiffMarie@...>
>
> I think because I can't remember what people look like - except the
> general outline of their bodies or faces - I remember people more by the
> "emotional impression" I get from them - I'm assuming this refers more to
> how they sounded and the general feeling of them. It's almost like I walk
> through life recognizing people by intuition or feeling, because I can't
> see them. Does anyone else do this?

yes, i do it a lot. last week i had several work interviews. i wouldn't
recognize any of the interviewers if i came across them right now, but i can
clearly remember the "feeling" that each one gave me. it's hard to explain.
btw. another (unrelated) question. do all prosopagnosics have more problems
recognizing people of one specific sex? if so, does this normally coincide
with the sexual orientation? i'm heterosexual and recognizing men is hard,
but much easier than recognizing women. i've read similar comments in some
websites, is this the general case?

just curious,

laura

>btw. another (unrelated) question. do all prosopagnosics have more problems
>recognizing people of one specific sex? if so, does this normally coincide
>with the sexual orientation? i'm heterosexual and recognizing men is hard,
>but much easier than recognizing women. i've read similar comments in some
>websites, is this the general case?
>
>just curious,
>
>laura

I am attracted to men, and I am utterly unable to recognize women.
Ditto for children of both sexes.  I am not attracted to children,
so this leads me to feel "sexual attraction" plays a very big part
in what works for me.

I do fairly well with men if they have lots of hair or wear certain
clothes.  One could probably say I developed a fetish with such so
I coult tell guys apart using it.  Similar hair or clothing on women
is completely useless.

I am probably at one end of the continuum.  I recall one person
saying they were better at the sex they were NOT attracted to.
Most people would probably say they are better at the sex they
are attracted to, or that they do equally well with both sexes.
Crucial is probably what parts of the brain an individual has
harnessed to tell people apart with.  If a crucial player is the
part of the brain that checks out sexual partners, then the sex
of the person seen is going to matter.

Bill

Leif, you're right that many cases of prosopagnosia are genetic in nature.
  However, it appears that these genetic differences result in the
development of atypical brain mechanisms.  For example, using measures of
brain activity such as fMRI or MEG, researchers often find abnormal
responses to faces in genetic prosopagnosics.

In some genetic cases, both face and object mechanisms are atypical and so
such individuals have trouble with both face and object recognition.
Presumably the genes involved are important for the development and
operation of the mechanisms for faces and objects.  In other genetic
cases, the involved genes only seem to affect face mechanisms so it
appears that they are not necessary for the development and operation of
object mechanisms.

Genetic prosopagnosia is just now starting to get the attention that it
deserves, and I suspect that we're going to learn a lot about it in the
next decade.  At the moment, I'm gearing up to collect data from genetic
prosopagnosics, and I know that other labs are doing the same.  In fact, I
suspect that it's going to provide one of the best examples of the
relationship linking genes, brains, and behavior.  It should be very
interesting!

Brad

>
> Brad:
>> Many prosopagnosics also have trouble recognizing non-face objects so
>> these individuals are both prosopagnosic and agnosic.  However, some
>> prosopagnosics perform normally with a wide range of non-face objects so
>> it appears that face agnosia and object agnosia are the result of
>> impairments to different mechanisms.  These mechanisms are close to one
>> another in the brain so when one isn't working properly it is likely
>> that
>> the other will not be working properly.
>
> I disagree. I think the difference in face recognition is genetic, and
> thus need have no correspondence with other brain functions.
>
> If the brain actually had some kind of damage, your hypothesis
> would be likely, but this is rarely the case with PA.
>
> Leif
>
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

hi maria,

which article was it you read and who wrote it?


> that most (PAs)  have learned "other methods" for
> recognizing objects, but think that they are just
> bad at recognizing faces, so give up on those
> easier.
>


as others have said, some people with PA are impaired
for faces only and others for faces and objects.

i'm a bit miffed by the statement that people with PA
just give up on faces.  if anything, i think that,  at
least some of us, try much harder at faces than NTs.
in fact, some of us try so hard, we stare and can make
others uncomfortable. like many people on this list, i
found out that i had PA fairly late in life. i always
assumed that i recognized people by their faces and
since i was very wrong in that assumption, i mistrust
the validity of my speculation about how i recognize
people.

i'm pretty good at cars (not as good as my brothers
who can tell the make, model and year by the
talelight)  and my silver windstar minivan looks very
different to me than a ford freestar or other vans.

we recently started going to  a new video store and i
saw a dark green subaru outback sport (one of the
early ones) parked in the parking lot. i had noticed a
car like that a few months ago outside the house of a
girl my son was friendly with a decade ago. ( i'm
thinking about trading in the van for a subaru - so i
am "seeing" subarus everywhere these days!) i wondered
if she was working at the store (she worked there a
few years ago), but she wasn't. there was a young man
with her coloring who was working there and, in fact,
it was her brother. i doubt that without recgonizing
the car i would have figured this out, their coloring
is not that unusual. he had no rememberance of me, but
he did remember my son.

since learning about PA, i have become somewhat more
aware of the process of how i recognize people. but i
would hesitate to state with absolute conviction, the
clues i use or to what extent i use them.

  When hunting for my car in the
> parking garage, it can be a real trip - I had no
> idea how many black SUVs existed in the world until
> I bought mine!

you could also get one of those antenna balls. it
might help in big parking lots. i think bill had a
really good point about cars looking increasingly
similar because of aerodynamics. it's easy for me to
tell an old honda from an old toyota, but i haven't
even tried to tell the new ones apart, except for the
prius, which is in the "beatle or pt cruiser"
category, especially from the side or from behind.

when all else fails, you can hit the panic button on
your key chain '-)
if you can believe it, i have seen people do that.

mary




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I have a hard time recognizing guys who mostly look alike - short hair, dark,
brown eyes, similar color skin. I attend university in Miami and most of the
guys in our class are Latin American - the girls are too, but they dye their
hair, or their hair is different lengths.

I have difficulty distinguishing between ethnicities (dark Latin American and
Afro-American) and also between individuals who are oriental. It's like I don't
even see any distinctions at all.

As far as "going through with intuition" recognizing people, do you find that
your assessments of others are strikingly accurate - knowing even things about
them that they haven't told anyone - because you aren't focused on what they
look like, or seeing your environment?

Do you find you "live in your head" more than in the "outside world"? I'm always
analyzing things in my head, and it's hard for me to see things outside of my
head unless there's a need to do so.

Jen
   ----- Original Message -----
   From: BITXUVERINOSA
   To: faceblind@yahoogroups.com
   Sent: Sunday, March 06, 2005 12:49 PM
   Subject: Re: [faceblind] Visual Agnosia


   From: <NiffMarie@...>
   >
   > I think because I can't remember what people look like - except the
   > general outline of their bodies or faces - I remember people more by the
   > "emotional impression" I get from them - I'm assuming this refers more to
   > how they sounded and the general feeling of them. It's almost like I walk
   > through life recognizing people by intuition or feeling, because I can't
   > see them. Does anyone else do this?

   yes, i do it a lot. last week i had several work interviews. i wouldn't
   recognize any of the interviewers if i came across them right now, but i can
   clearly remember the "feeling" that each one gave me. it's hard to explain.
   btw. another (unrelated) question. do all prosopagnosics have more problems
   recognizing people of one specific sex? if so, does this normally coincide
   with the sexual orientation? i'm heterosexual and recognizing men is hard,
   but much easier than recognizing women. i've read similar comments in some
   websites, is this the general case?

   just curious,

   laura



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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I've mostly given up on trying to recognize faces. I've always been very
introverted, and until I met my DH, had few friends - mostly on the internet.

I'm always embarrassed that I can't remember people, but at the same time, I
enjoy living in my own little world so I don't mind that much that I don't
socialize much. :-)

Do you find that you remember things that you read - words - better than other
things?

Jen
   ----- Original Message -----
   From: mary zeiler
   To: faceblind@yahoogroups.com
   Sent: Sunday, March 06, 2005 3:11 PM
   Subject: Re: [faceblind] Visual Agnosia


   hi maria,

   which article was it you read and who wrote it?


   > that most (PAs)  have learned "other methods" for
   > recognizing objects, but think that they are just
   > bad at recognizing faces, so give up on those
   > easier.
   >


   as others have said, some people with PA are impaired
   for faces only and others for faces and objects.

   i'm a bit miffed by the statement that people with PA
   just give up on faces.  if anything, i think that,  at
   least some of us, try much harder at faces than NTs.
   in fact, some of us try so hard, we stare and can make
   others uncomfortable. like many people on this list, i
   found out that i had PA fairly late in life. i always
   assumed that i recognized people by their faces and
   since i was very wrong in that assumption, i mistrust
   the validity of my speculation about how i recognize
   people.

   i'm pretty good at cars (not as good as my brothers
   who can tell the make, model and year by the
   talelight)  and my silver windstar minivan looks very
   different to me than a ford freestar or other vans.

   we recently started going to  a new video store and i
   saw a dark green subaru outback sport (one of the
   early ones) parked in the parking lot. i had noticed a
   car like that a few months ago outside the house of a
   girl my son was friendly with a decade ago. ( i'm
   thinking about trading in the van for a subaru - so i
   am "seeing" subarus everywhere these days!) i wondered
   if she was working at the store (she worked there a
   few years ago), but she wasn't. there was a young man
   with her coloring who was working there and, in fact,
   it was her brother. i doubt that without recgonizing
   the car i would have figured this out, their coloring
   is not that unusual. he had no rememberance of me, but
   he did remember my son.

   since learning about PA, i have become somewhat more
   aware of the process of how i recognize people. but i
   would hesitate to state with absolute conviction, the
   clues i use or to what extent i use them.

   When hunting for my car in the
   > parking garage, it can be a real trip - I had no
   > idea how many black SUVs existed in the world until
   > I bought mine!

   you could also get one of those antenna balls. it
   might help in big parking lots. i think bill had a
   really good point about cars looking increasingly
   similar because of aerodynamics. it's easy for me to
   tell an old honda from an old toyota, but i haven't
   even tried to tell the new ones apart, except for the
   prius, which is in the "beatle or pt cruiser"
   category, especially from the side or from behind.

   when all else fails, you can hit the panic button on
   your key chain '-)
   if you can believe it, i have seen people do that.

   mary




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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

hi marie,

at least on the surface, i'm an extrovert. i'm been
working with a researcher at berkeley, off and on, for
about a year and a half. he's had the chance to talk
to my kids and they have all told him that i can have
quite a pleasant social conversation with someone and
not be excatly sure who it is. that's the part where
all three of them roll their eyes, but for different
reasons.


>
> Do you find that you remember things that you read -
> words - better than other things?
>

i don't think so. i remember the emotional content of
a novel (as you (and i)  remember the emotional impact
a person has) a couple of decades later, but i will be
more than fuzzy on the details, unless it is one i
reread.  i will, however, read a novel solely for a
talented writer's use of language.

my husband is not as strong on faces (cars or houses)
as many are but his recall of the written or spoken
word is uncanny. he came into the living room fuming
after listening to a few minutes of  bush's state of
the union address, quoting bush verbatim, for at least
a hundred words. our oldest son has that same ability.


> I'm always embarrassed that I can't remember people,
> but at the same time, I enjoy living in my own
> little world so I don't mind that much that I don't
> socialize much. :-)

i agree that it is embarrassing not recognizing
people. i have found it most comfortable to interact
in small groups. but now that i know why i have these
occassional glitches in recognizing people i have
found it somehow easier to deal with.... after i got
over an initial period of being self conscious.


mary




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> Have any of you found that your visual memory isn't
> impaired just in the area of faces, but
> categorically in complex objects?
***
Yes. Like not recognizing faces I thought I was not
paying attention when I couldn't find an object--your
post gives occasion  to ponder.
I will look for something, such as a pair of sissors,
when I find it, I  am surprized how they look for I
was seaching for something different.
***
***
> For instance, I can't distinguish my black Ford
> Explorer from other black SUVs
***
I  used to have antenna decorations but the wind and
people keep removing  them so I now use mylar stickers
on my windows so when I narrow my search down  to  all
silver cars I can then locate my silver car.
Blinking the headlights with my remote control also
helps when I approach a row  of cars from the front.
I always check the plates to confirm I am not trying
to unlock somebody else's car--although I guess this
is a habit I maintain from a time when cars opened
with a key.
***
***
It's almost like I walk through life recognizing
people by intuition or feeling
***
Yes. I couldn't find the right words to describe one
way I identify people--you described it very well.

~~Bonnie






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From: <NiffMarie@...>>
  As far as "going through with intuition" recognizing people, do you find
that your assessments of others are strikingly accurate - knowing even
things about them that they haven't told anyone - because you aren't focused
on what they look like, or seeing your environment?
>>>>> sometimes i don't verbalize certain things because i think that
>>>>> there's no need to do it and i take for granted that the other person
>>>>> can "imagine" how i feel or what i mean. very often i'm wrong and the
>>>>> other person has no idea about what i mean. i don't know, maybe i'm
>>>>> better than average at "reading between lines"


  Do you find you "live in your head" more than in the "outside world"? I'm
always analyzing things in my head, and it's hard for me to see things
outside of my head unless there's a need to do so.
>>>>>>> i think that my brain works too much and with too much autonomy, but
>>>>>>> i'm not sure that this has anything to do with prosopagnosia :)

laura

>>>>> sometimes i don't verbalize certain things because i think that
>>>>> there's no need to do it and i take for granted that the other person
>>>>> can "imagine" how i feel or what i mean. very often i'm wrong and the
>>>>> other person has no idea about what i mean. i don't know, maybe i'm
>>>>> better than average at "reading between lines"

Perhaps. Sometimes I can sense things about people - like what their motives are
and such. Sometimes I've been able to sense things about someone that no one had
any idea about.


Do you find you "live in your head" more than in the "outside world"? I'm
always analyzing things in my head, and it's hard for me to see things
outside of my head unless there's a need to do so.
>>>>>>> i think that my brain works too much and with too much autonomy, but
>>>>>>> i'm not sure that this has anything to do with prosopagnosia :)

Hehe. I live in my head too much too :-) I find I only "see" what I need to see
:-)

Jen


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Are normal people able to see others' faces in their minds after that person is
gone?

I remember once, when I was young, I liked a guy, but it frustrated me that I
could never "see" his face in my mind. I could only see the outline of his
body/face and his hair. I remembered he had a scar on his face, and that he had
dark eyes, but I couldn't see it altogether - I couldn't integrate the features.
I figured that was normal - and maybe it is.

Is it? :-)

Jen

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Perhaps. Sometimes I can sense things about people - like what their motives are
and such. Sometimes I've been able to sense things about someone that no one had
any idea about.

Let me expound on this...

I think it's because, since I can't "see" people to distinguish them, I pick up
on body language and other small details to tell them apart. I'm pretty good at
recognizing patterns of behavior, so maybe apply that to people to know who's
who?

Jen

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

In a message dated 3/6/2005 7:55:54 PM Pacific Standard Time,
NiffMarie@... writes:
Are normal people able to see others' faces in their minds after that person
is gone?
******************************************************************
I don't have PA and for me all it takes is a quick glimpse
  and I can look away and see that person's face in my memory.
  Furthermore, I can continue to drag it up at will.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

My response to various posts


When I get a new car I immediately plaster it with bumper stickers in front,
back and on both sides.  I'm a pretty opinionated person anyway but this is the
only way I can recognize it at first and sometimes, forever. But its faces I'm
definitely the worst with. And I know I try the hardest with those.

Me, I have trouble with both genders equally, but I have never been sexually
attracted to anyone of either gender. In Jr. High they thought I was a lesbian.
By High School most had figured out I wasn't interested in the girls either.
Like Jesus said, "Some are born that way."

Concerning possible brain damage. I do not know what caused my prosopagnosia. I
was very nearsighted and oversensitive to light for years and years before it
was caught. Maybe my brain just didn't wire itself up right in that area, but
when I confessed to my father that I couldn't tell people apart he tried to
reassure me that he had the same trouble because women keep changing their hair
styles, so "don't worry about it." Not much help.  Later I found out from my
friend that my birth had been a difficult one. My mother told my friend that,
not me, and I did not find this out until after my mother died. So what made me
face blind? Poor eyesight, heredity or brain damage? I do not know, but I do
know I have mental impairments in other areas. My eye hand coordination is so
bad I was always in trouble in school for poor handwriting. I have depression
badly enough to require medication, and I have both obstructive and central
sleep apnea. Not only do obstructions keep me from breathing right at while
trying to sleep (obstructive) I forget to breath anyway (central).

I also recognize now my mother, and possibly my father had what we call
Asperger's syndrome. My Mother felt no empathy for me, and raised me with a
grim, German sense of duty, not affection. When I read about the difficulties
mice with no oxitocin have, bonding with their mother or recognizing each other,
I see myself in them.
My Father saw no need for friends. His family was enough for him and he isolated
mother (who could not drive) terribly. He wouldn't let us have a phone for
instance. When he was home he wanted it to be just family, and when we went
somewhere he wanted it to be just with family only.

  To top it off my Mother also isolated me. She was phobic about letting anyone
but family in the house, and I wasn't allowed to play inside anyone else's
house, so I didn't get much practice socializing as a kid.  There was no
kindergarten back then so I was six before I was with other people. The social
isolation and lack of mother love is enough to explain the depression but what
caused the face blindness and the central sleep apnea? How do I know the
depression isn't the result of brain damage too, at least partially?  To top it
off I have gluten intolerance and thyroid problems and those weren't diagnosed
until plenty of time for them to do damage too. I wish I at least knew the cause
of my difficulties.  It tortures me not knowing.

I definitely live more inside my head than most folks, to the point where paying
attention in class was a problem. But then children with sleep apnea do tend to
get diagnosed with ADD a lot.  But where else would I live if not in my head? I
am not successful living anywhere else. I blame that as much on having a broken
heart as any thing else. I spend tremendous amounts of mental energy coping with
my mother's coldness. This is true even now even though she’s been dead for
almost five years now.

Speaking of gender differences I think it’s harder in some ways for females to
have face blindness than males. Men aren’t expected to be good at reading facial
expressions, or expressing emotion on their own faces anyway. Men aren’t
considered weird if they won’t wear makeup and actually detest it. If men
haven’t a clue what’s going on with fashion and style, that is almost ok. That’s
considered a manish way to be. They are even forgiven being  socially “clueless”
more than women are. If a woman is that way she is considered to be maybe not
“quite right.” One way we do have an advantage, which I think Bill would agree,
is we are allowed to wear long hair without being considered counter culture.
Also no one ever threatened to beat me up because I was different, I was just
verbally abused. I’ve never had the trouble with the police that I could blame
on face blindness just topographical agnosia, (getting lost in the wrong
neighborhood). Bill has had trouble with the police because of looking too much
like a hippie to suit their tastes.

Has anyone else but me had more than their fair share of trouble getting medical
care because we don’t know to make eye contact and are clearly, “different” so
our complaints are thought to be “all in our heads or blamed solely on
psychiatric problems” I have had tons of this.   But then I have multiple health
problems and some of them are unusual. I think in this area, face blind women
have it harder, but then women have a harder time getting doctors to take them
seriously even when they aren't different.

    Elizabeth Hensley






-----Original Message-----
From: mary zeiler <aiw4us@...>
Sent: Mar 6, 2005 12:55 PM
To: faceblind@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [faceblind] Visual Agnosia


hi marie,

at least on the surface, i'm an extrovert. i'm been
working with a researcher at berkeley, off and on, for
about a year and a half. he's had the chance to talk
to my kids and they have all told him that i can have
quite a pleasant social conversation with someone and
not be excatly sure who it is. that's the part where
all three of them roll their eyes, but for different
reasons.


>
> Do you find that you remember things that you read -
> words - better than other things?
>

i don't think so. i remember the emotional content of
a novel (as you (and i)  remember the emotional impact
a person has) a couple of decades later, but i will be
more than fuzzy on the details, unless it is one i
reread.  i will, however, read a novel solely for a
talented writer's use of language.

my husband is not as strong on faces (cars or houses)
as many are but his recall of the written or spoken
word is uncanny. he came into the living room fuming
after listening to a few minutes of  bush's state of
the union address, quoting bush verbatim, for at least
a hundred words. our oldest son has that same ability.


> I'm always embarrassed that I can't remember people,
> but at the same time, I enjoy living in my own
> little world so I don't mind that much that I don't
> socialize much. :-)

i agree that it is embarrassing not recognizing
people. i have found it most comfortable to interact
in small groups. but now that i know why i have these
occassional glitches in recognizing people i have
found it somehow easier to deal with.... after i got
over an initial period of being self conscious.


mary




__________________________________
Celebrate Yahoo!'s 10th Birthday!
Yahoo! Netrospective: 100 Moments of the Web
http://birthday.yahoo.com/netrospective/




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recognizing patterns of behavior, so maybe
> apply that to people to know who's who?
***
Yes.
I recognize people by the pattern of their walk: sway
to the side, tilt  head, legs under hips or legs
inside hips,  etc.
Or the way they carry themselves: lean in front of
midline or lean back of midline, one shoulder
elevated,  etc.

There's also the pattern when people lean toward or
away from  me when we are close together.

Mostly when I am standing close to a person I go on
some  etheral sense I just can't explain.
In Jr High my blind friend and I could both identify
people by their presence except she could do it in the
dark while I couldn't. Even though I didn't need to
look at them I did need some  light source to be able
to sense them.

~~Bonnie

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Aerodynamic requirements to achieve mandated gas mileage have caused
cars of various makes to look more and more alike as each decade has
rolled by.  Also in my case, I have no friends who ever talk about
makes of cars, like was the case when I was in high school, so I
now know almost no makes of cars by sight, other than the unusual
ones like the VW bug or the PT Cruiser.  In high school I knew most
of the makes, but they also had a lot less of them then than they
do now, since imported cars were rare.

This is true, however I find that I can tell the "bodies" of the cars apart, to
an extent, but the details - like the doors, the windows, and other things, I
can't remember to save my soul.

Now we have a gray Honda Accord.  Lots of the various Hondas look
alike, other makes look quite a bit like the Honda, and gray is the
most popular color now for cars.  So I just look for a gray car
with my license plate.  There are bound to be other gray Hondas in
any lot of any size anyhow, so that is what works for me.

Am I impaired with cars?  Brad seemed to think not.  He gave me a
test with cars and I did normally with it.  However it tested the
shape of cars, not the face-like appearance of headlights and
grillework.  There have been threads before among face blind people
on cars, and the gist of them has been that cars may be made
face-like because this helps most people find theirs in parking
lots, and buyers like cars to be face-recognizable.  (Nobody needs
to find his toaster in the kitchen, for example, and this is why
toasters are not made to look like faces.)  Also, people climb INTO
cars so they become "part of their body", so for that reason too,
they like for cars to be face-like:

I would agree. Again, I can discriminate between shapes of cars... mostly. I
just can't see the finer details. As I say that, I know when I look in the
parking garage I can somewhat tell the difference between the shape of SUVs, but
even now I cannot remember what my SUV's shape looks like.

http://www.chevroncars.com/wocc/meet/inst.jhtml?MediaId=MeettheCarsList

So cars may not be the best test of whether you have no impairments
besides faces.

Jen, do you have problems with any objects other than cars?

Cars come to mind because I have the most problems each day with that! Hmm... We
have pictures in our home, and aside from the Thomas Kinkaide ones I would gaze
at for long periods of time, I can't remember what hte other ones look like
without looking at them again. Even the TK ones I remember only because I think
I memorized it in the "round about way" - like remember the placement of the
home within the setting. I can't see the details, but I think I know where the
major objects are.

On that note, my family always called me "The Oblivious One" because I never
noticed anything different. My father, for example, put a new, HUGE picture up
in his office (where I worked). I didn't notice it being new or there until
about eight months later.

I am in law school, and sit in the same general area for each class - except in
one class I'm up one row, in another back a row, and in another, back one more
row from that. I know which days I sit more closely to the front and not,
however I can't recognize the rows, and always have to wait for my friend to sit
down so I know where I'm supposed to sit (this, after sitting in the wrong row
time and again).

I can't remember what my cat (whom I love, and who sleeps with me every night)
looks like, except in general he's black and white. I couldn't distinguish
between my parents' boarder collie puppies when they were breeding them.

Like I said in another post, I feel as though I'm walking through the world
"seeing" through my intuition alone, because I can't see and remember things in
general.


>I think because I can't remember what people look like - except the general
outline of their bodies or faces - I remember people more by the "emotional
impression" I get from them - I'm assuming this refers more to how they
sounded and the general feeling of them. It's almost like I walk through
life recognizing people by intuition or feeling, because I can't see them.
Does anyone else do this?
>
>Jen

Although also used by males, that is a very common female response.
We make these ways when we are little kids.  When little girls play
with dolls, they imagine the emotional content of the playing.  When
little boys play with dolls (they'll call them "army men", of course),
they only imagine the physical situation (this group overcomes that
group, for example).  They typically would never imagine that getting
killed actually hurts.

Little girls are thus keen on the emotional content of encounters.
Boys, on the other hand, are more apt to clue in on physical traits,
such as hair, clothing, and the like.

This sex difference is not so apparent to adults, because adult men
and women grow to become more alike:

http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/c/a/2005/03/03/BAGSKBJI981.DTL

However, "the ways we tell people apart" are mostly fixed in childhood
when boys and girls are mentally quite different from each other,
and that is why adult FACE BLIND men and women can be very different
from each other.  "How we recognize and categorize others" is a most
important factor in determining how we find our niche in society.

Interesting - do you think face blind folk pick a social niche where the people
aren't as obsessed with fashion and looks as the normal culture? I'm fashionally
inept - I can tell what matches, and I shop in certain stores just because I
figure if I shop there it's probably going to look ok in The Real World, but
beyond that, I can't really figure out fashion.

My close friends tend to be introverted sorts as well, and none of us are hugely
into fashion.

Jen

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

***
It's almost like I walk through life recognizing
people by intuition or feeling
***
Yes. I couldn't find the right words to describe one
way I identify people--you described it very well.

Thanks :-)

Nice to know I'm not alone! For a while here I was beginning to think perhaps I
was narcissistic because I don't see people.

Glad to know that's not the case!

Jen

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Concerning possible brain damage. I do not know what caused my prosopagnosia. I
was very nearsighted and oversensitive to light for years and years before it
was caught. Maybe my brain just didn't wire itself up right in that area, but
when I confessed to my father that I couldn't tell people apart he tried to
reassure me that he had the same trouble because women keep changing their hair
styles, so "don't worry about it." Not much help.  Later I found out from my
friend that my birth had been a difficult one. My mother told my friend that,
not me, and I did not find this out until after my mother died. So what made me
face blind? Poor eyesight, heredity or brain damage? I do not know, but I do
know I have mental impairments in other areas. My eye hand coordination is so
bad I was always in trouble in school for poor handwriting. I have depression
badly enough to require medication, and I have both obstructive and central
sleep apnea. Not only do obstructions keep me from breathing right at while
trying to sleep (obstructive) I forget to breath anyway (central).

I was told that my mother had a hard labor with me as well. They told her I
lacked oxygen to my brain and would have brain damage or cerebral palsy.

I, too, am farsighted(? the one where I can't see far away). I also have Brown's
syndrome - my left eye won't go up, but it's mostly unnoticeable. Only prob was
that I couldn't roll my eyes at my parents when they annoyed me as a teen!

I definitely live more inside my head than most folks, to the point where paying
attention in class was a problem. But then children with sleep apnea do tend to
get diagnosed with ADD a lot.  But where else would I live if not in my head?

I live in my head because I have difficulty seeing anything else. I like words -
I can read them, and reread them if they don't make sense. To me, words almost
aren't just letters on a page, but I can see when I read - I imagine the words
so vividly. I live in my books as well :-)



Speaking of gender differences I think it's harder in some ways for females to
have face blindness than males. Men aren't expected to be good at reading facial
expressions, or expressing emotion on their own faces anyway. Men aren't
considered weird if they won't wear makeup and actually detest it. If men
haven't a clue what's going on with fashion and style, that is almost ok. That's
considered a manish way to be. They are even forgiven being  socially "clueless"
more than women are. If a woman is that way she is considered to be maybe not
"quite right." \


I can't even tell you how lucky I am to have my DH. His personality type is such
that I think if I went out with my hair matted he wouldn't complain ;-) It
doesn't bother him when I don't wear makeup, or just put on whatever. We are
both highly introverted, so it's absolutely wonderful to have such a gem of a
guy!

I do tend to be conscious about what I wear and such because my father was very
strict in this area. However, it's more of a duty and definitely NOT an
obsession! DH is helpful when I need to know whether something looks alright.

Jen

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I was very nearsighted and
> oversensitive to light
***
I doubt whether these traits are related to face
blindness.
I am nearsighted and photosensitive also.
Nearsightedness comes from the inherited size of the
eyeball. Doctors tell me my sensitivity to light comes
from my blue eyes not blocking light as brown eyes do.
My surgeon told  me people with blue or green eyes
have a higher tendency to get skin cancer--again
because our light-colored eyes do not block enough
sunlight.

I think my color blindness is more related to face
blindness than being nearsighted since both forms of
blindness are due to neuro processing rather than
vision.
***
***
  I confessed to my
> father that I couldn't tell people apart he tried to
> reassure me that he had the same trouble because
> women keep changing their hair styles, so "don't
> worry about it." Not much help.
***
No, it isn't much help however it is a common response
when you try to explain your situation.
***
***
> I definitely live more inside my head than most
***
Maybe we live in our heads because we have to think
more to figure out faces and to conform to a world
that is not compatible to our way of doing things.
***
***
> folks, to the point where paying attention in class
> was a problem.
***
My teachers had more trouble with my paying attention
in class than I did. If they left me alone I would be
able to bore a  hole in the wall or gaze out the
window to concentrate. When they called my name it
would break my concentration. Although when I repeated
back what they said, they couldn't discipline me--just
tell me to look at  them or pay more attention or some
lame thing.
***
***
  I imagine the words so vividly.
***
I imagine action when people speak also but I can't
say this is related to being face blind.
***
***
  gender differences
***
Gender differences are important to me as identifiers
of people. Phases of my life are people mostly with
women  or mostly with men. So  if I am in a period of
my life when most of my acquaintances and contacts are
women, a low voice narrows the possibilities to the
few men I know. Or reverse.
***
***
I am intrigued by the comment that the grill and
headlights of cars resemble faces. This could very
well explain why I tend to better recognize my car
from the rear. Also this shows the pervasive attention
humans have to anything that resembles a face. The
happy  face is most likely a permanent graphic for the
rest of eternity.

I do not, will not, can not remember your face still I
will look at it to try to determine  who you are.

~~Bonnie




__________________________________
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To answer Jen's original question:

>>Have any of you found that your visual memory isn't impaired just in the
>>area of faces, but categorically in complex objects?

My particular difficulties relate mostly to faces, but as you suggest for
possibilities, I also have some difficulties in other complex objects, though
interestingly enough, not all complex objects.  For example, I seem to have
little difficulty differentiating the makes of vehicles, especially those I've
had to pay some specific attention to, like for example, the vehicles which
members of my family drive.  I'm sure I could learn to recognize other vehicle
types if given thye incentive to do so.

I don't, particularly, as a result, consider most vehicles to be all that
visually complex.  Yes, most are rather similar in shape and/oe size, but each
make and model also seems to have its own shape, much as I try to categorize
people, at least partially, by their height and relative size.  Something else
which is rather important here is that vehicles, except for color, are largely
made to be identical to one another, at least those of the same make and model,
and even in general, the physics of driving allows for some amount of
similarities
in building cars for best aerodynamic performance.  I'm sure the car industry
has
done multitudinous studies on the best shape in which to build a car for
both safety and performance.

I do, however, have substantial difficulties with other types of objects;
particularly to what I have noticed, plants, flowers, trees, specific
breeds of animals (i.e., chihuahua or poodle, as opposed to cat or dog, the
latter of which I have only minimal dificulties on rare occasions), among
many other types of objects which seem to flummox my recognition skills, or
lack thereof.  Don't ask me about a particular cut of meat as I probably
couldn't
identify it by sight, but I'd have little difficulty doing so by taste.
(My sense of smell is not that good.)

Also worth noting is that I experience what most people refer to as topographic
agnosia, but which I have rarely seen also mentioned as environmental agnosia.
The difference between these two would appear to be, based upon what I have
read,
is that topographic agnosia refers to one's lack of ability to navigate an area
by reading maps, and environmental agnosia seems to refer to not being able to
create mental maps of and between locations.  Ever since stumbling upon this
difference online some months ago, though, I've rarely seen or read about
"environmental agnosia", so I'm not certain this just might have been a fine
distinction the author of whatever I was reading was trying to make without
being established elsewhere.

And now, some comments related to what Brad Duchaine wrote in response to Jen:

> Hi Jen,
>
> The question that you asked is one that psychologists and neurologists
> have been trying to answer for some time.
>
> Many prosopagnosics also have trouble recognizing non-face objects so
> these individuals are both prosopagnosic and agnosic.  However, some
> prosopagnosics perform normally with a wide range of non-face objects so
> it appears that face agnosia and object agnosia are the result of
> impairments to different mechanisms.  These mechanisms are close to one
> another in the brain so when one isn't working properly it is likely that
> the other will not be working properly.

Brad, you may have a better memory for this than I do, but I specifically
remember, at some point, reading about a farmer somewhere who had absolutely
no difficulty differentiating among the sheep in his herd, but he could not
visually differentiate among people with any degree of certainty.

I also remember reading, more recently, about a person who had no difficulty
whatsoever with recognizing faces, but was otherwise completely unable to
recognize objects of any sort.

> Some of the best evidence showing that faces and objects are handled by
> different mechanisms comes from cases which show the opposite pattern of
> abilities.  There have been a number of cases reported in which brain
> damage leaves individuals with severely impaired object recognition yet
> normal (or relatively spared) face recognition.  One man in particular has
> been studied in detail.  Mr. CK can recognize faces as well as NT
> subjects, but his object recognition is really bad.  With objects, he has
> trouble even telling the general category of an object (glass, ashtray,
> etc.) so his problems are very severe.
>
> Over the last fifteen years, the idea that faces and objects are handled
> by different mechanisms has been supported by fMRI studies of people with
> normal face and object recognition.  It turns out that different brain
> areas are selectively activated by faces and objects.

Well, for most people anyway.  I participated in an MEG study a couple of years
ago
that, when the data was analyzed, suggested that there were three groups of
people
being analyzed here:  those with normal face recognition skills (NTs), those
with face blindness, and Glenn.  ;-)  The first group showed a definite
distinction in certain brain activities related to faces and objects.  The
second group showed a similar distinction in brain wave activities between
faces and objects, but the brain waves representing faces were shown to be
significantly impaired in activity.  Then, there was me:  according to my
brainwave activity, I showed absolutely no preference for faces or objects,
at least as measured by the particular brainwave patterns that were being looked
at.  The conclusion this leads me to believe about myself is that my brain
simply
treats faces EXACTLY the same way as it treats objects.  Since objects are
generally designed to be visually distinctive from each other (a piano is not
a violin because they both share very distinct shapes, for example, but two
pianos
will look visually similar to one another) and faces require a lot more brain
precision to differentiate one from another, I fail to recognize faces because
I attempt to process them, within my brain, the same way I try to process
objects.

> Best regards,
> Brad

Glenn Alperin