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An introduction to Lisp   Message List  
Reply | Forward Message #247 of 571 |
Re: [feyerabend-project] An introduction to Lisp

Thanks for the answers so far:

- I don't think showing some success stories help. For every Lisp success
story there are, unfortunately, substantially more success stories for C,
C++, Java (success measured as commercial success...)

- Business goals change and I would believe only the most seasoned CEOs
with strong backing can rule out an exit strategy that involves being
bought. And even then, it is probably still stupid if they ruled it out
right away.

Let me play the devil's advocate. It is a well-known sermon:

Choosing CLOS or the like:

- you don't get enough people
- those people you get cost too much
- you are incompatible with the rest of the world
- adapters and bug-fixes will always be last for you

Specifically for a startup:

- choosing a niche language at the core of your technology strategy may
make you liable to shareholder lawsuits if the company goes south

Actually this isn't even about a specific language but about any
non-mainstream technology. I remember these arguments from the days when we
tried to convince UBS to widely deploy a meta-programming approach to
achieve flexibility etc. on an enterprise level.

Looks like this is the standard "Crossing the Chasm" problem. Well, then
CLOS is dead, because you don't get a second chance. Unless, maybe, you
position it right to solve a new business problem. But then think Java:
Smalltalk would have been a better choice as the browser language that Java
started out as, but it didn't happen.

Dirk




Sun Aug 25, 2002 8:23 pm

dirkriehle
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Message #247 of 571 |
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Hi everybody, In February we had a short discussion on Lisp on the pattern discussion mailing list, especially the entry barriers of Lisp because of allegedly ...
Pascal Costanza
pascalcostanza
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Aug 21, 2002
1:51 pm

Nice job. What you have written is useful to me. Here at Space Telescope we are thrashing somewhat over the question should we continue to use lisp in the...
jmadams@...
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Aug 21, 2002
2:54 pm

Hi all, I'm a fan of all the List/CLOS papers I've read, but never became a friend of Lisp as an everyday tool. (That is, I never used it outside school.) If...
Dirk Riehle
dirkriehle
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Aug 21, 2002
4:45 pm

... Dirk: Use large ROI Case Studies of companies that made killer apps using Lisp to present a _business case_: ITA/Orbitz: http://www.itasoftware.com/ ...
Mike Beedle
beedlem
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Aug 22, 2002
4:58 am

... I would begin by asking if the CEO's goals were really consistent with the Feyerabend project. -- Ward Cunningham v 503-245-5633 mailto:ward@... f...
Ward Cunningham
ward@...
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Aug 21, 2002
5:07 pm

Hehe, thanks Ward. I had no intent of starting a flame war. I restricted this email to the feyerabend emailing list (rather than replying to...
Dirk Riehle
dirkriehle
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Aug 21, 2002
5:15 pm

... It depends on what kind of product the company makes. If the source code is actually part of the company's business strategy (e.g. if the exit strategy is...
Erann Gat
eranngat
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Aug 21, 2002
7:20 pm

Thanks for the answers so far: - I don't think showing some success stories help. For every Lisp success story there are, unfortunately, substantially more...
Dirk Riehle
dirkriehle
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Aug 25, 2002
8:25 pm

... Though it's not relevant, I would argue like this: My team will be able to program circles around everyone else. They will be able to construct rapidly a...
Richard P. Gabriel
rpgpoet
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Aug 27, 2002
3:03 am

... Thanks Dick, That was a great way to start my morning. I'll be quoting from it all day :-) brian wallis......
Brian Wallis
bwallis42
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Aug 27, 2002
11:01 pm

Since we are discussing an age-old problem that the Lisp/CLOS companies had already 10-15 years ago, I wonder whether hasn't been proof of CLOS (programmers')...
Dirk Riehle
dirkriehle
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Aug 28, 2002
9:00 pm

... http://www.flownet.com/gat/papers/lisp-java.pdf (See also http://www.flownet.com/gat/papers/ljfaq.html) All this interest in Lisp motivated me to finish a...
Erann Gat
eranngat
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Aug 28, 2002
9:54 pm

I promised myself not to let myself be dragged into this kind of discussion but ... Theo D'Hondt Programming Technology Lab : Computer Science Department ...
Theo D'Hondt
tjdhondt@...
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Aug 30, 2002
6:02 pm

but here goes: Common Lisp isn't Lisp and (certainly) neither is CLOS. Lisp might be a thing of beauty but ... I remember being disgusted by the ADA reference ...
Theo D'Hondt
tjdhondt@...
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Aug 30, 2002
6:19 pm

Hi, You're welcome. ;) Please let me know how this worked out... All the best, Pascal ... -- Pascal Costanza University of Bonn ...
Pascal Costanza
pascalcostanza
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Aug 22, 2002
9:57 am

... What about giving a cool demo? This is how I managed at several stages in the past to convince people to use a certain technology. (no Lisp yet, though) An...
Pascal Costanza
pascalcostanza
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Aug 22, 2002
10:10 am

... I don't know, it depends on how you sell it. I have found Paul Graham's story about Yahoo stores quite impressive, especially the bit about changing code...
Pascal Costanza
pascalcostanza
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Aug 26, 2002
3:23 pm

... Well, I think this is mostly our own fault (i.e., the fault of computer scientists). The term "programming language" raises certain associations in...
Pascal Costanza
pascalcostanza
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Aug 26, 2002
3:31 pm

Thanks Pascal, You have inspired me. Next time I start something significant I am going to use Common Lisp. I have never gotten to take Common Lisp for a...
David Leibs
mddjlu235
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Aug 27, 2002
1:40 am

...and to folow on I'd argue that the current "post-9/11 downturn" is the time when Lisp and Smalltalk will come to be dominant players in "the enterprise"....
eliot@...
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Aug 28, 2002
1:40 am

Trying to stay very much on topic (and trimming my replies too, folks!)... Even if Microsoft is allowed to fail, there will be work to do on the Feyerabend...
patrickdlogan
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Aug 28, 2002
2:23 am

... Here is a quote from an interview with James Gosling (see http://java.sun.com/features/2002/03/gosling.html) ... I think that this is just a pattern that...
Pascal Costanza
pascalcostanza
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Sep 2, 2002
1:27 pm
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