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Hackers, Crackers, and the law   Message List  
Reply | Forward Message #126 of 148 |
Re: [fors-discuss] Hackers, Crackers, and the law

(I'm not a lawyer.)

] Sysadmins do things every day that, if their employer decides at a later
] time any one of which was "unauthorized," subject them to misdemeanor and
] even felony jeopardy. That is one of the touchstones of an
] unconstitutionally vague law - that it is easily susceptible of ex post
] facto application.

Let me quote a bit from 164.377 Computer crime.
``
(4) Any person who knowingly and without authorization uses, accesses
or attempts to access any computer, computer system, computer network, or
any computer software, program, documentation or data contained in such
computer, computer system or computer network, commits computer crime.
''

Could you use this wording to run a legal argument that a person didn't
*know* that they were without authorization? If the statue could be
interpreted that way, it would only apply to people who knew at the
time that they were doing something unauthorized.

In that case, if you could show that you didn't realise at the time
that the act was "without authorization" (because you had implicit
authorization, or the computer allowed you to do it, or maybe it
seemed like a reasonable thing and no one told you not to), then
you could argue that you weren't knowingly without authorization.

If my interpretation was upheld, then good samaritans could have
a defense ("I didn't know that I wasn't supposed to do that").

But it wouldn't let all the "bad guys" off (the thing which the
legal system would be most worried about), because you could hardly
sustain an argument "I didn't know that I wasn't allowed to break
into the bank's secure computer system and change my account balance".

I'm concerned with that because if legislators think that the law
has become totally toothless (and can't catch anybody) then they
will build a new cannon (or increase the firepower on the current
cannon), and we are worse than back to square one.

With my interpretation, Oregon could even prosecute a spammer, if you
have told them that you don't want their spam and they keep sending it.
(Otherwise, Oregon should be able to prosecute a spammer in any case.)

] As a consequence, the law has only cannons to use to swat flies, and those
] cannons do a great deal of peripheral damage.

Yes, its a good point.

Something tells me legislators aren't smart enough to build a
fly swatter, and most probably don't even realise the difference.

__________________________________________________________________________
David Keegel <djk@...> URL: http://www.cyber.com.au/users/djk/
Cybersource P/L: Unix Systems Administration and TCP/IP network management



Tue Sep 4, 2001 12:19 am

djk@...
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Message #126 of 148 |
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... But it's hard to explain technical issues (by definition), and it's especially difficult to explain them to legislators, prosecutors, judges, and juries....
Tom Phoenix
rootbeer+fors-d@...
Send Email
Aug 29, 2001
8:24 pm

] On Wed, 29 Aug 2001, Dave Sill wrote: ] ] > jasons@... wrote: ] > ] > >... We need a way to help the legal system show leniency when people ] > >were...
David Keegel
djk@...
Send Email
Aug 30, 2001
12:16 am

... I agree. But it won't be easy to accomplish, since I'm sure that most legislators (judges, juries, reporters, columnists, employers) think that "breaking...
Tom Phoenix
rootbeer+fors-d@...
Send Email
Aug 30, 2001
2:42 pm

... Tom> I agree. But it won't be easy to accomplish, since I'm sure that most Tom> legislators (judges, juries, reporters, columnists, employers) think that ...
merlyn@...
Send Email
Aug 30, 2001
3:21 pm

... Tom> I agree. But it won't be easy to accomplish, since I'm sure that most Tom> legislators (judges, juries, reporters, columnists, employers) think that ...
Frossie
frossie@...
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Aug 30, 2001
7:11 pm

... Agreed. As Randall argued in his trial, our computers (as agents of our bidding) access and modify the content of computers owned by other organizations...
jasons@...
Send Email
Aug 30, 2001
7:59 pm

] On Thu, 30 Aug 2001, David Keegel wrote: ] ] > getting legislators to focus more on intent (eg: requiring clear ] > mal-intent for computer crime offenses)...
David Keegel
djk@...
Send Email
Aug 31, 2001
1:51 am

... The logical extension to this analogy is that having noticed the door is open, we step just inside the room to have a quick look - to see whether the...
Dave Mitchell
davem@...
Send Email
Aug 30, 2001
3:56 pm

... Or "to look if indeed this is the room we thought should be locked". A couple of guys here in NL noticed a window to the bank open at night when they were...
R.E.Wolff@...
Send Email
Aug 30, 2001
4:26 pm

... OK ... OK ... Oops. Not OK. It's not legal, and even if they have the best intentions, it's not safe. Suppose someone sees them enter and calls the cops?...
Dave Sill
de5-fors-discuss@...
Send Email
Aug 30, 2001
5:22 pm

... In that case, the bank's story IS: You only get access to the toilet, and if you'd be able to get out of that toilet, you wouldn't get access to anything...
R.E.Wolff@...
Send Email
Aug 30, 2001
10:49 pm

* Dave Mitchell ... In the recent case the looking-around was made more problematic IMHO because the person took some photocopies of the papers on the table in...
Ralf Fassel
ralf@...
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Aug 30, 2001
4:29 pm

... Correct, but what was of equal significance, we felt, was the apparent truth that the application of statutes which are grounded in ancient real property ...
larryo@...
Send Email
Sep 3, 2001
9:05 pm

(I'm not a lawyer.) ] Sysadmins do things every day that, if their employer decides at a later ] time any one of which was "unauthorized," subject them to...
David Keegel
djk@...
Send Email
Sep 4, 2001
12:20 am

... David> In that case, if you could show that you didn't realise at the time David> that the act was "without authorization" (because you had implicit David>...
merlyn@...
Send Email
Sep 4, 2001
12:36 am

... One of the "problems" with your trial is that you should've said "NO" to the question: "Was this for personal gain?" . The way you answered that question...
R.E.Wolff@...
Send Email
Sep 4, 2001
5:35 pm

... R> One of the "problems" with your trial is that you should've said "NO" R> to the question: "Was this for personal gain?" . R> The way you answered that...
merlyn@...
Send Email
Sep 4, 2001
6:03 pm

... That you could, if it were not for ORS 161.115(1), which provides in part: (1) If a statute defining an offense prescribes a culpable mental state but does...
larryo@...
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Sep 7, 2001
10:31 pm
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