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Hackers, Crackers, and the law   Message List  
Reply | Forward Message #127 of 148 |
Re: [fors-discuss] Hackers, Crackers, and the law

>>>>> "David" == David Keegel <djk@...> writes:

David> In that case, if you could show that you didn't realise at the time
David> that the act was "without authorization" (because you had implicit
David> authorization, or the computer allowed you to do it, or maybe it
David> seemed like a reasonable thing and no one told you not to), then
David> you could argue that you weren't knowingly without authorization.

David> If my interpretation was upheld, then good samaritans could have
David> a defense ("I didn't know that I wasn't supposed to do that").

David> But it wouldn't let all the "bad guys" off (the thing which the
David> legal system would be most worried about), because you could hardly
David> sustain an argument "I didn't know that I wasn't allowed to break
David> into the bank's secure computer system and change my account balance".

Well, there's the trouble. If both a good guy committing a good act,
and a bad guy committing a bad act, can both say "I didn't know I
couldn't do that", we're back to the uneducated-but-easily-persuaded
jury to decide if a technical action is a valid action. And that's
pretty much what my trial looked like... a bunch of jurors being told
*after the fact* that my actions were unauthorized, without any basis
by which to determine whose agenda was being furthered by the chalk
line of "in vs out" moving *after the fact*.

The facts of the trial show that I was convicted of a felony regarding
mink when during the time of the actions regarding mink, I was merely
given a request to change my behavior, with which I precisely complied
and nothing further was said about it (until the trial two years later).

Since when does something that results in not even so much as a
disciplinary action at the time it occurs, suddenly become a felony
crime act two years later? Only because "authorize" can change
between the time things are actually happening, and the time a jury
reinterprets the actions.

This is something we cannot permit the law to make illegal. If an
action of mine is not damaging enough to a company to have fired my
ass, why is it also then a felony?

This is what's broken with the law.

I'm not saying that I didn't do things that in retrospect might not
have been permitted had I asked, but I'm also darn sure that I wasn't
knowingly committing *harmful* *unauthorized* acts to the company, nor
was any harm proven, even under sworn testimony.

I think this is what leaves us all a bit confused about this case, if
any of the hundreds of emails and conversations I've had over the past
seven years is an indicator. "No harm, no foul", they cry. So they
wonder how I could be a felon when I was just trying to help. I'm a
little puzzled about that as well. The messy wording of the law seems
to be at the core of what separates the current legal system from an
ideal "justice" system on this case, and we're currently arguing that
up the appeals process for some remedy to occur in the form of a
retrial and a recasting of the syntax (and thus semantics) of the law.

--
Randal L. Schwartz - Stonehenge Consulting Services, Inc. - +1 503 777 0095
<merlyn@...> <URL:http://www.stonehenge.com/merlyn/>
Perl/Unix/security consulting, Technical writing, Comedy, etc. etc.
See PerlTraining.Stonehenge.com for onsite and open-enrollment Perl training!



Tue Sep 4, 2001 12:36 am

merlyn@...
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Message #127 of 148 |
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... But it's hard to explain technical issues (by definition), and it's especially difficult to explain them to legislators, prosecutors, judges, and juries....
Tom Phoenix
rootbeer+fors-d@...
Send Email
Aug 29, 2001
8:24 pm

] On Wed, 29 Aug 2001, Dave Sill wrote: ] ] > jasons@... wrote: ] > ] > >... We need a way to help the legal system show leniency when people ] > >were...
David Keegel
djk@...
Send Email
Aug 30, 2001
12:16 am

... I agree. But it won't be easy to accomplish, since I'm sure that most legislators (judges, juries, reporters, columnists, employers) think that "breaking...
Tom Phoenix
rootbeer+fors-d@...
Send Email
Aug 30, 2001
2:42 pm

... Tom> I agree. But it won't be easy to accomplish, since I'm sure that most Tom> legislators (judges, juries, reporters, columnists, employers) think that ...
merlyn@...
Send Email
Aug 30, 2001
3:21 pm

... Tom> I agree. But it won't be easy to accomplish, since I'm sure that most Tom> legislators (judges, juries, reporters, columnists, employers) think that ...
Frossie
frossie@...
Send Email
Aug 30, 2001
7:11 pm

... Agreed. As Randall argued in his trial, our computers (as agents of our bidding) access and modify the content of computers owned by other organizations...
jasons@...
Send Email
Aug 30, 2001
7:59 pm

] On Thu, 30 Aug 2001, David Keegel wrote: ] ] > getting legislators to focus more on intent (eg: requiring clear ] > mal-intent for computer crime offenses)...
David Keegel
djk@...
Send Email
Aug 31, 2001
1:51 am

... The logical extension to this analogy is that having noticed the door is open, we step just inside the room to have a quick look - to see whether the...
Dave Mitchell
davem@...
Send Email
Aug 30, 2001
3:56 pm

... Or "to look if indeed this is the room we thought should be locked". A couple of guys here in NL noticed a window to the bank open at night when they were...
R.E.Wolff@...
Send Email
Aug 30, 2001
4:26 pm

... OK ... OK ... Oops. Not OK. It's not legal, and even if they have the best intentions, it's not safe. Suppose someone sees them enter and calls the cops?...
Dave Sill
de5-fors-discuss@...
Send Email
Aug 30, 2001
5:22 pm

... In that case, the bank's story IS: You only get access to the toilet, and if you'd be able to get out of that toilet, you wouldn't get access to anything...
R.E.Wolff@...
Send Email
Aug 30, 2001
10:49 pm

* Dave Mitchell ... In the recent case the looking-around was made more problematic IMHO because the person took some photocopies of the papers on the table in...
Ralf Fassel
ralf@...
Send Email
Aug 30, 2001
4:29 pm

... Correct, but what was of equal significance, we felt, was the apparent truth that the application of statutes which are grounded in ancient real property ...
larryo@...
Send Email
Sep 3, 2001
9:05 pm

(I'm not a lawyer.) ] Sysadmins do things every day that, if their employer decides at a later ] time any one of which was "unauthorized," subject them to...
David Keegel
djk@...
Send Email
Sep 4, 2001
12:20 am

... David> In that case, if you could show that you didn't realise at the time David> that the act was "without authorization" (because you had implicit David>...
merlyn@...
Send Email
Sep 4, 2001
12:36 am

... One of the "problems" with your trial is that you should've said "NO" to the question: "Was this for personal gain?" . The way you answered that question...
R.E.Wolff@...
Send Email
Sep 4, 2001
5:35 pm

... R> One of the "problems" with your trial is that you should've said "NO" R> to the question: "Was this for personal gain?" . R> The way you answered that...
merlyn@...
Send Email
Sep 4, 2001
6:03 pm

... That you could, if it were not for ORS 161.115(1), which provides in part: (1) If a statute defining an offense prescribes a culpable mental state but does...
larryo@...
Send Email
Sep 7, 2001
10:31 pm
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