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Hackers, Crackers, and the law   Message List  
Reply | Forward Message #129 of 148 |
Re: [fors-discuss] Hackers, Crackers, and the law

>>>>> "R" == R E Wolff <R.E.Wolff@...> writes:

R> merlyn@... wrote:
>> This is something we cannot permit the law to make illegal. If an
>> action of mine is not damaging enough to a company to have fired my
>> ass, why is it also then a felony?

R> One of the "problems" with your trial is that you should've said "NO"
R> to the question: "Was this for personal gain?" .

R> The way you answered that question was not the way it was intended.

Yeah, I know. In retrospect, while I know what I was thinking, that
was not the context of the question I was actually answering.

I was thinking...

let's see, if I do a job for the company, by helping them
with their security issue, they'll continue to hire me.
If they hire me some more, I'll make more money.
That'll be a gain for me... "personal" "gain".

and said...

Yes.

It's too bad they didn't have a big thought balloon above my head.
Then the jury would have seen that reasoning that seemed so clear to
me at the time.

Fsck. This all goes back to my first position. Never get into
a situation where you are the defendant in a criminal proceeding
in the first place. Ordinary people cannot prepare adequately for
the misdirection and miscontexting that can happen at a trial.

If you don't believe me, re-read the part where the prosecutor was
trying to make it look like the password file was removed knowingly
without authorization, by skipping over the words "from intel
property" as he was reading the document. Had I not caught him
misreading the document, it could have been a very specific nail in my
coffin. That's the kind of grueling thinking that it takes being up
on the witness stand. I was exhausted at the end of the day.

--
Randal L. Schwartz - Stonehenge Consulting Services, Inc. - +1 503 777 0095
<merlyn@...> <URL:http://www.stonehenge.com/merlyn/>
Perl/Unix/security consulting, Technical writing, Comedy, etc. etc.
See PerlTraining.Stonehenge.com for onsite and open-enrollment Perl training!



Tue Sep 4, 2001 5:46 pm

merlyn@...
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Message #129 of 148 |
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... But it's hard to explain technical issues (by definition), and it's especially difficult to explain them to legislators, prosecutors, judges, and juries....
Tom Phoenix
rootbeer+fors-d@...
Send Email
Aug 29, 2001
8:24 pm

] On Wed, 29 Aug 2001, Dave Sill wrote: ] ] > jasons@... wrote: ] > ] > >... We need a way to help the legal system show leniency when people ] > >were...
David Keegel
djk@...
Send Email
Aug 30, 2001
12:16 am

... I agree. But it won't be easy to accomplish, since I'm sure that most legislators (judges, juries, reporters, columnists, employers) think that "breaking...
Tom Phoenix
rootbeer+fors-d@...
Send Email
Aug 30, 2001
2:42 pm

... Tom> I agree. But it won't be easy to accomplish, since I'm sure that most Tom> legislators (judges, juries, reporters, columnists, employers) think that ...
merlyn@...
Send Email
Aug 30, 2001
3:21 pm

... Tom> I agree. But it won't be easy to accomplish, since I'm sure that most Tom> legislators (judges, juries, reporters, columnists, employers) think that ...
Frossie
frossie@...
Send Email
Aug 30, 2001
7:11 pm

... Agreed. As Randall argued in his trial, our computers (as agents of our bidding) access and modify the content of computers owned by other organizations...
jasons@...
Send Email
Aug 30, 2001
7:59 pm

] On Thu, 30 Aug 2001, David Keegel wrote: ] ] > getting legislators to focus more on intent (eg: requiring clear ] > mal-intent for computer crime offenses)...
David Keegel
djk@...
Send Email
Aug 31, 2001
1:51 am

... The logical extension to this analogy is that having noticed the door is open, we step just inside the room to have a quick look - to see whether the...
Dave Mitchell
davem@...
Send Email
Aug 30, 2001
3:56 pm

... Or "to look if indeed this is the room we thought should be locked". A couple of guys here in NL noticed a window to the bank open at night when they were...
R.E.Wolff@...
Send Email
Aug 30, 2001
4:26 pm

... OK ... OK ... Oops. Not OK. It's not legal, and even if they have the best intentions, it's not safe. Suppose someone sees them enter and calls the cops?...
Dave Sill
de5-fors-discuss@...
Send Email
Aug 30, 2001
5:22 pm

... In that case, the bank's story IS: You only get access to the toilet, and if you'd be able to get out of that toilet, you wouldn't get access to anything...
R.E.Wolff@...
Send Email
Aug 30, 2001
10:49 pm

* Dave Mitchell ... In the recent case the looking-around was made more problematic IMHO because the person took some photocopies of the papers on the table in...
Ralf Fassel
ralf@...
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Aug 30, 2001
4:29 pm

... Correct, but what was of equal significance, we felt, was the apparent truth that the application of statutes which are grounded in ancient real property ...
larryo@...
Send Email
Sep 3, 2001
9:05 pm

(I'm not a lawyer.) ] Sysadmins do things every day that, if their employer decides at a later ] time any one of which was "unauthorized," subject them to...
David Keegel
djk@...
Send Email
Sep 4, 2001
12:20 am

... David> In that case, if you could show that you didn't realise at the time David> that the act was "without authorization" (because you had implicit David>...
merlyn@...
Send Email
Sep 4, 2001
12:36 am

... One of the "problems" with your trial is that you should've said "NO" to the question: "Was this for personal gain?" . The way you answered that question...
R.E.Wolff@...
Send Email
Sep 4, 2001
5:35 pm

... R> One of the "problems" with your trial is that you should've said "NO" R> to the question: "Was this for personal gain?" . R> The way you answered that...
merlyn@...
Send Email
Sep 4, 2001
6:03 pm

... That you could, if it were not for ORS 161.115(1), which provides in part: (1) If a statute defining an offense prescribes a culpable mental state but does...
larryo@...
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Sep 7, 2001
10:31 pm
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