forth200x : Message: Re: [forth200x] 2nd RfD: EKEY return values

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RfD: EKEY return values

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Message #62 of 425 |

Re: [forth200x] 2nd RfD: EKEY return values

On Monday 05 June 2006 16:54, Stephen Pelc wrote:
> On 5 Jun 2006 at 15:04, Bernd Paysan wrote:
> > Not really. The PC has a 8042 based keyboard, which is then
> > translated to the X keyboard event (which is an abstraction for
> > quite a number of different possible keyboards, and developed when
> > Linux PCs where not even thought about). It then goes into a xterm,
> > which emulates a VT102 terminal.
>
> I take your point, but both start from the Linux kernel and
> libc. There are other operating systems.

From VAX to zSeries: They all can work with X servers, by mapping key
strokes to KeySyms. And the same works on Windows and Mac OS, which are
again different, but sufficiently similar. I can use a Windows machine
to log into Anton's b3, and hit the F2 key, and Gforth will recognise
this correctly, again.

> The point at issue is really that the proposal seems to be
> derived from writing editors in GUI desktop applications. I
> regard this as a library issue, and increasingly would like to
> see some separation of language and library. This does not mean
> that I want the same separation as in the "C Standard library".
> I'm arguing that there are at least three major application
> domains, and that we should recognise this. The -EXT labelling
> is inadequate for this.

The -EXT labelling is "you may or may not implement it", which is indeed
not very adequate. You may label this -PC, aka "you are supposed to
implement it when you have a PC-style keyboard".

> LIB: Desktop key handling for Linux and libc

This is not limited to Linux and libc in any way.

> and some problems go away, otherwise the Forth200x standard is
> in danger of being perceived as the gForth extension standard.
> Has anyone implemented this EKEY under the Windows API or
> Symbian?

On Windows: Yes, definitely. Win32Forth implements something that
differs from this RFD only that it uses '_' instead of '-' in the name.

> A standard should be derived from common practice, maybe from
> another language. What common pratice does this proposal have in
> Forth *applications* as opposed to *kernels*?

--
Bernd Paysan
"If you want it done right, you have to do it yourself"
http://www.jwdt.com/~paysan/

Mon Jun 5, 2006 5:00 pm

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Message #62 of 425 |

Expand Messages	Author	Sort by Date
... I take your point, but both start from the Linux kernel and libc. There are other operating systems. The point at issue is really that the proposal seems...	Stephen Pelc sfprem	Jun 5, 2006 2:55 pm
... From VAX to zSeries: They all can work with X servers, by mapping key strokes to KeySyms. And the same works on Windows and Mac OS, which are again...	Bernd Paysan berndpaysan	Jun 5, 2006 5:01 pm
... Not all desktops are PCs, or has this become a generic term for a desktop computer? ... My question was under the O/S API. I doubt if gForth does, and a ...	Stephen Pelc sfprem	Jun 5, 2006 11:10 pm
... Well, originally a PC was a "personal computer", i.e. one for yourself, not one with a terminal attached. Seems to be similar to the term "desktop...	Bernd Paysan berndpaysan	Jun 6, 2006 12:04 am
... EKEY? should return true if EKEY won't block. KEY? should return true if KEY won't block. If KEY just discards the PgUp key and then waits for you to type...	Anton Ertl anton@...	Jun 6, 2006 7:13 am
... But you're still assuming X or some OS intermediary between you and the chipset. There are purely native PC Forths, such as Greg Bailey's, not to mention...	Elizabeth D Rather erather	Jun 6, 2006 12:19 am
... I don't see a problem there. Your EKEY will do on these devices whatever it has always done. If that does not include recognizing cursor and function...	Anton Ertl anton@...	Jun 6, 2006 7:05 am
... If I write a program, that uses certain keys, I want to know if they are there. If I want to make it usable on systems that don't provide them, I would use...	Robert Epprecht epprecht@...	Jun 6, 2006 3:18 pm
... The Forth system may not know if the keys are available. Gforth certainly does not know it (and even if they are available on the system, they might...	Anton Ertl anton@...	Jun 18, 2006 8:42 pm
... Valid points. ... I do. But I also use a lot of key bindings in my programs as they are often much more convenient then the 'other means'. So I often run...	Robert Epprecht epprecht@...	Jun 21, 2006 1:16 pm
... I may start to see what the point of this labeling stuff is: If you sell a Forth system for a keyboard-less embedded system to some customers, and they ask...	Anton Ertl anton@...	Jun 6, 2006 7:40 am
... Partly. Let's change desktop to PC from now on. The behaviour of KEY or EKEY on a PC depends on what they are connected to. The EKEY return value proposal...	Stephen Pelc sfprem	Jun 6, 2006 10:36 am
... Yes. So I don't see what the problem is. ... Sounds fine to me. Although I wonder why you would need to change even that. What does it currently do if...	Anton Ertl anton@...	Jun 18, 2006 9:29 pm
... Or the Forth200x standard could make it clear somehow, that parts of it which are not relevant on a certain system and hardware can be omitted without...	Robert Epprecht epprecht@...	Jun 6, 2006 2:35 pm
... If you read the "Compliance and Labeling" sections of the current standard, you'll see that it bends over backwards to make this clear. The Core wordset is...	Elizabeth D Rather erather	Jun 6, 2006 6:48 pm
In Open Firmware land, we stopped using the IEEE standardization process and starting labeling every new thing as a "Recommended Practice". That worked really...	Mitch Bradley wmb@...	Jun 6, 2006 9:10 pm
... Interesting. We have had some discussions on whether and how to work with an official standards body. - anton...	Anton Ertl anton@...	Jun 18, 2006 8:17 pm
A data point, for what it's worth: In Quartus Forth (for Palm Pilots), EKEY returns 'event_type', a value from a rather small set. To get anything...	Mitch Bradley wmb@...	Jun 6, 2006 9:23 pm
... Thanks for the info. I will contact Neal Bridges and as him what he thinks about the proposal. ... Yes, there were some discussions on comp.lang.forth...	Anton Ertl anton@...	Jun 18, 2006 8:10 pm
... What I meant by the note was that EKEY might be vectored, so that the user could point it at different keyboards with different extended code sets. The...	Mitch Bradley wmb@...	Jun 18, 2006 11:24 pm
... Well, that seems to be outside standardisation (at least at the moment), so if a system supports that, I would expect it to clarify what happens in this...	Anton Ertl anton@...	Jun 19, 2006 8:42 pm
... okay by me....	Mitch Bradley wmb@...	Jun 20, 2006 11:12 pm
... The normal case would be that KEY ignores the <cursor down>, so KEY? should return false. The abnormal case is if the <cursor down> is visible as escape...	Anton Ertl anton@...	Jun 18, 2006 10:03 pm
... If you then use KEY and no further magic key events occur, what does/should EKEY? then return? Stephen...	stephen@... sfprem	Jun 19, 2006 8:35 am
... If KEY has consumed all key events, and therefore EKEY would block, EKEY? should return false. - anton...	Anton Ertl anton@...	Jun 19, 2006 9:46 am

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