We would like to remind you of this upcoming event.

Seida's Birthday.  ;)

Date: Wednesday, November 16, 2005
Time: 8:30AM PST (GMT-08:00)

=^_^= Happy birthday to me! Happy Birthday to ME!! -- Yeh...
*whistles innocently*

I thusly impose my 2 cents. This is why the person who has the "great muck
idea", finds someone who is knowledgable with glow to either help get things
off the ground or to go the extra mile and teach the new muck administrator
whats what. And funny that, I happen to be one of those kinds of people. ;)

get in touch with me for further questioning:
AIM
	 Kingof Kups
Yahoo
	 phirewalk2

Hope to hear from yeh soon. =^_^=

-----Original Message-----
From: glowmuck@yahoogroups.com [mailto:glowmuck@yahoogroups.com]On
Behalf Of deadly_asp
Sent: Tuesday, October 25, 2005 6:02 PM
To: glowmuck@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [glowmuck] Re: Setup Help


--- In glowmuck@yahoogroups.com, "Feaelin Moilar" <feaelin@k...> wrote:
>
>
> > From: deadly_asp [mailto:asp@e...]
> > Sent: Thursday, April 14, 2005 5:03 AM
> > I'm new to glowMUCK (obviously) and wondered if anybody knew
> > of another place I could find a setup/getting started quide,
> > I have followed the one on the official site as best I can,
> > but it is very vauge in areas.
>
> No way. Its as clear as, as, okay, its clear as granite. I assume you're
> referring to:
>
> http://glowmuck.sourceforge.net/docs/adminguide.php
>
> I can answer specific questions, if you have them. And I'd be pleased to
> hear about which specific parts are too vague, or what information you'd
> like to know that isn't documented on the website. I'll answer your
> questions and then try to get the webpages updated so the next person
> doesn't have to ask those same questions!
>
> Iain
>

Well, me and a friend were going over it for the first time, and the
first thing that snagged us was when it came to WIZ levels, it just
says "make a W3 wizard" (or somthing similar) but it dosent say HOW to
do this. and thats a running theme throuout. It tells the brand new
user to do somthing, but with no explination to back it up. as well as
swiftly moving on to more advanced topics (site blocking lets say)
that a new user could probably leave till later, when there are so
many questions raised, such as HOW to install MUF, what MUF programs
are needed. In the end we found some answers to thsese questions, but
not without a lot of searching and frustration. I cringe to think how
many great MUCK ideas were squashed because a new user had no idea
what to do!









Yahoo! Groups Links

I think the fundamental fallacy here is that the only
thing required to run a MUCK is a great
idea for a MUCK.  The documentation is written with
the
understanding that the people looking to set up a MUCK
server are doing it with a certain level of knowledge
that is easy to come by as a MUCK mortal player, if
that MUCK mortal player can be bothered to take the
time to learn.  I would suggest that if MUCK ideas
have gone down the drain, the fault lies in the
prospective MUCK admins for going into the setup of a
MUCK without propertly educating themselves in the
areas of basic MUCK building, MPI and MUF.

There are MUCKs out there that are specifically
designed to teach you these things.  I suggest you
shelve your MUCK idea for the time being and log into
MUCK University, for example. (university.kemenel.org
2050) and learn what you can there.  Then you can come
back to your project later.  I'm sure your 'great
idea', if it truly is great, will weather the test of
the time it takes you to brush up on the basics.

Wix

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Biology -- The only Science in which
division and multiplication are the
same thing.
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Jennifer A. Boeyink  javinia@...
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-



__________________________________
Yahoo! FareChase: Search multiple travel sites in one click.
http://farechase.yahoo.com

> > > From: deadly_asp [mailto:asp@e...]
> Well, me and a friend were going over it for the first time,
> and the first thing that snagged us was when it came to WIZ
> levels, it just says "make a W3 wizard" (or somthing similar)
> but it dosent say HOW to do this. and thats a running theme
> throuout. It tells the brand new user to do somthing, but
> with no explination to back it up. as well as swiftly moving
> on to more advanced topics (site blocking lets say) that a
> new user could probably leave till later, when there are so
> many questions raised, such as HOW to install MUF, what MUF
> programs are needed. In the end we found some answers to
> thsese questions, but not without a lot of searching and
> frustration. I cringe to think how many great MUCK ideas were
> squashed because a new user had no idea what to do!

My apologies for taking a couple of days to get this, it has been a busy
week.

The Admin Guide was certainly written with the idea that someone setting up
a new muck would have at least one person that had experience on Glowmuck or
Fuzzball, at least on the player side, and preferably on the wizarding side.
It also tends to emphasize the items that are unique to Glowmuck, rather on
basics that apply to entire Fuzzball family of servers.

However, mu*ing culture has changed since it was written. It undoubtedly
needs re-written, making no assumptions about what the reader knows, just
make sure all bases are completely covered.

To answer some of the specific questions you mentioned (which you may have
found the answer to already)

1) Setting a player with a given wiz-bit is like setting any other flag:
@set <player>=W3.
2) Installing MUF programs...the MUF program package actually has a brief
discussion of how to install MUF programs, although it could use more info,
particularly with specific clients. It is a separate package downloadable
from glowmuck.sourceforge.net. An important distinction here: 'MUF' is a
programming language (arguably a scripting language). The Glow Development
Group provides a default set of programs get you started which are by no
means all-encompassing.

You may also want to visit MUCK University, if you haven't already. MUCK U
is working putting together various 'courses' on how to build, program, &
operate a glowmuck. The initial material has focused on building which
covers a fair bit of the basic information an administrator might need.

I think that covers all the sources of information you can hit: MUCK U, this
mailing list, and the website. There also a fair number of generically
fuzzball sites out there that may be of help.

Don't hesitate to ask specific questions on the list as they come up.
Hopefully, someone will answer them with in a reasonable time frame. :)

Iain/Feaelin

--- In glowmuck@yahoogroups.com, "Feaelin Moilar" <feaelin@k...> wrote:
>
>
> > From: deadly_asp [mailto:asp@e...]
> > Sent: Thursday, April 14, 2005 5:03 AM
> > I'm new to glowMUCK (obviously) and wondered if anybody knew
> > of another place I could find a setup/getting started quide,
> > I have followed the one on the official site as best I can,
> > but it is very vauge in areas.
>
> No way. Its as clear as, as, okay, its clear as granite. I assume you're
> referring to:
>
> http://glowmuck.sourceforge.net/docs/adminguide.php
>
> I can answer specific questions, if you have them. And I'd be pleased to
> hear about which specific parts are too vague, or what information you'd
> like to know that isn't documented on the website. I'll answer your
> questions and then try to get the webpages updated so the next person
> doesn't have to ask those same questions!
>
> Iain
>

Well, me and a friend were going over it for the first time, and the
first thing that snagged us was when it came to WIZ levels, it just
says "make a W3 wizard" (or somthing similar) but it dosent say HOW to
do this. and thats a running theme throuout. It tells the brand new
user to do somthing, but with no explination to back it up. as well as
swiftly moving on to more advanced topics (site blocking lets say)
that a new user could probably leave till later, when there are so
many questions raised, such as HOW to install MUF, what MUF programs
are needed. In the end we found some answers to thsese questions, but
not without a lot of searching and frustration. I cringe to think how
many great MUCK ideas were squashed because a new user had no idea
what to do!

I have uploaded a new version of Glowmuck to the sourceforge site.
You can download the new version from:
http://glowmuck.sf.net/downloads.php
--------------------------------------------------------------------
While I've made an effort to make sure everything works, and there
are no nasty crashing bugs, PLEASE BACKUP YOUR MUCK before
upgrading. Before making any changes. Backup every day. Backup so
often, you're buried in backups. Be paranoid. Test the new version
on a _copy_ of your muck on a different port.

If you do run into problems feel free to submit questions to the
glowmuck mailing list, or report bugs, feature requests, etc. on the
glowmuck sourceforge support pages:

To check the current bug list and/or report a new one:
   http://sourceforge.net/tracker/?
func=browse&group_id=52513&atid=467112

To open a support request:
http://sourceforge.net/tracker/?group_id=52513&atid=467113

To request a new feature: http://sourceforge.net/tracker/?
group_id=52513&atid=467115
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Changes Include:
* Bug: Fixed flaw in a muf primitive that would cause the server to
   crash if an incorrect value was passed.
* Bug: Fixed minor issues that would cause MSVC and/or GCC to
   generate warnings.
* Bug: Fixed the problem where wiz-owned zombies could use a Z-exit
   even when the wizard was set quell.
* Bug: Fixed issue where the code preventing aliases to be rewritten
   programmatically (proven to be a security risk in the past) was
   also preventing programs from using 'alias' as a property name
   even when it wasn't referring to the alias property dir.
* New Feature: If the new tune exit_guest_flag is set to 'yes', no
   guest can use an exit unless the exit is set 'G'.
   If the tune is set to 'no' all exits except those set 'G' can be
   used by a guest. The default is 'no' to prevent disaster for mucks
   that are upgrading.
   The preferred method would be to tune to 'yes', set all exits !G
   and then go through and carefully set those commands that a guest
   needs with the guest flag. Most builtin commands are already denied
   to guests, so this route should eliminate the need for the special
   exit on the guest to block access to certain commands.
* New Feature: Added feature to @hopper to allow a wizard to delete
   entries from the list.
* New Feature: Added the muf primitive 'proctime' which returns the
   time until the next execution of an enqueued muf process.
* New Feature: Added the @heartbeat property queue. Any programs set
   in that queue will be executed every 15 seconds (or whatever
   BASE_PULSE is set to). For example:
   '@set #0=/@heartbeat/updatehealth:122'
   Program dbref #122 will execute every BASE_PULSE seconds.
* New Feature: Updated MUF error output for logwall to reflect who
   generated the error and what command they used.
* Revised restart files (restart.cmd/restart.bat) to hopefully be
   slightly more intelligent.


* New Feature: Added some inserver defines. The now classic debug-
on, debug-off, and debug-line macros are now inserver defines
(without the preceding periods so they're not confused with macros!).

* New Feature: Support for xterm's 256 color mode added. This adds
   four additional color codes: ^256BG-xxx^ (background) and
   ^256FG-xxx^ (foreground) xxx represents three numbers ranging from
   0-5 these each represent red, green, and blue. Additionally, gray
   scale colors can be selected in the form: ^256BG-Gxx^ or
   ^256FG-Gxx^ where xx is a number between 0 and 24. And finally,
   you can also specify an alternate color to be displayed if the
   user doesn't have 256 color support. For example:
   ^256FG-333:VIOLET^ would either display in a vaguely gray color
   for 256 color users, or in VIOLET for normal ANSI color users.
   When writing MUF programs, if you need to check to see if the
   server supports 256 color, check for the existance of the
   __pref_256colors symbol. The symbol represents the propdir that a
   boolean value is stored in to determine whether a user has 256
   color turned on. So something like:

      ( Does the server support 256 color? )
      $ifdef __pref_256colors
         ( server supports 256 color, does the user? )
         me @ __pref_256colors getprop if ... then
      $endif

Would let you add 256 color specific features to your MUF programs
safely without confusing older servers or less capable mu* clients.
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Happy Mucking,

Feaelin Moilar

> From: deadly_asp [mailto:asp@...]
> Sent: Thursday, April 14, 2005 5:03 AM
> I'm new to glowMUCK (obviously) and wondered if anybody knew
> of another place I could find a setup/getting started quide,
> I have followed the one on the official site as best I can,
> but it is very vauge in areas.

No way. Its as clear as, as, okay, its clear as granite. I assume you're
referring to:

http://glowmuck.sourceforge.net/docs/adminguide.php

I can answer specific questions, if you have them. And I'd be pleased to
hear about which specific parts are too vague, or what information you'd
like to know that isn't documented on the website. I'll answer your
questions and then try to get the webpages updated so the next person
doesn't have to ask those same questions!

Iain

I'm new to glowMUCK (obviously) and wondered if anybody knew of another
place I could find a setup/getting started quide, I have followed the
one on the official site as best I can, but it is very vauge in areas.

>> It is intentional that only #1 (not W4's) can write to @-style props that
have 'alias' in them, although I thought it was only supposed to be the
@/alias dir, not others in a subdir.  The reason for this is to prevent a W4
from setting an @alias on #1 that would effectively @force #1 to do
something terrible (change his/her password, nuke something, etc.)

Which is understandable... However, surely that safeguard could have been a
little more pointed in execution if that's the case.  Rather than block all
@*alias props, would it be that hard to have it check a step further and see
if the offending prop is being set on #1?

My real objection (as stated in the SourceForge thing I wrote up) is that
the 'Permission Denied' error was pretty unhelpful.  It's right up there
with 'General System Fault' in terms of helping me understand what I've done
wrong and how to fix it.  But that's hardly a new problem in MUF...

>> The simple fix is to change the 'alias' prop in the muf program to use
something else like 'name'.

*chuckle* 'Simple fix' is relative.  This isn't a new program and I already
have twelve guilds set up.  I'll have to not only change the program itself,
but also go back and change all of the existing alias props.  Not that
changing a whopping 12 props is going to ruin my day or anything, but
checking all associated guild programming to make sure I have all of the
incidences where the alias property used will be way fun. :P

Oh well.  I'll survive.  At least I know that it wasn't something I did..
Just a Glow quirk I didn't know about.

Wix
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
       And one of the elders saith unto me, "Weep not:
Behold, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, hath prevailed..."
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Visit NarniaMUCK!  The finest Narnia-based RPG on the 'Net!
            http://www.narnia.godscreations.net
             telnet://narnia.godscreations.net:23
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

It is intentional that only #1 (not W4's) can write to @-style props that
have 'alias' in them, although I thought it was only supposed to be the
@/alias dir, not others in a subdir.  The reason for this is to prevent a
W4 from setting an @alias on #1 that would effectively @force #1 to do
something terrible (change his/her password, nuke something, etc.)

The simple fix is to change the 'alias' prop in the muf program to use
something else like 'name'.
-Andy

On Thu, 9 Dec 2004, feaelin wrote:

>
>
> --- In glowmuck@yahoogroups.com, "Jennifer Boeyink" <boeyinks@s...>
> wrote:
>> #8, "@guild/dm", #8, "@guild/dm/alias", "dm") SETPROP
>
> Apparently, a MUF program can't set a @ prop that has the
> word 'alias' in it.
>
> I believe the intention was to prevent someone from programmatically
> rewriting command aliases which are stored in /@/alias.
>
> I'll be adding this one to my list of things to fix. I may include
> it in 3.2.0, since I've not had time to release it yet. :)
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

--- In glowmuck@yahoogroups.com, "Jennifer Boeyink" <boeyinks@s...>
wrote:
>#8, "@guild/dm", #8, "@guild/dm/alias", "dm") SETPROP

Apparently, a MUF program can't set a @ prop that has the
word 'alias' in it.

I believe the intention was to prevent someone from programmatically
rewriting command aliases which are stored in /@/alias.

I'll be adding this one to my list of things to fix. I may include
it in 3.2.0, since I've not had time to release it yet. :)

----- Original Message -----

From: Jennifer Boeyink

To: glowmuck@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Thursday, December 09, 2004 8:46 AM

Subject: [glowmuck] ARGH!

Okay, can someone here explain this to me?  Because I'm stumped.

 

I have a lovely MUF program that creates and runs 'Guilds' for our game.  This morning I sat down to create a new guild for a group of players who had requested one, and got an error I do NOT understand.

 

Background: The program uses a property setup that goes like this:

 

@guild/<guild abbreviation>/<category>:<value>

 

These properties are set on our IC Environment room (#8), which I own. I'm using @props because that obviously prevents anyone from messing with the guild properties.  My character has a W4.  The program is set W4.  There's nothing unusual about #8 that I can see.

 

Okay, so I run through the entire setup, which just collects a set of information bits and puts them on the stack in order.  At the end, it runs through them all to double-check that they're what I want and then prompts for a 'create' command if everything checks out.  I type 'create', and this is what I get:

 

-- Begin Paste -- 

Please doublecheck this information.  If you are ready to create the guild, type 'CREATE'
Debug> #3956 593 ("The Ducks of the Northern Mar"_, "dm", "fowl", "8475", "green:brown") READ
Debug> #3956 594 ("The Ducks of the Northern Mar"_, "dm", "fowl", "8475", "green:brown", "CREATE") "create"
Debug> #3956 594 ("The Ducks of the Northern Mar"_, "dm", "fowl", "8475", "green:brown", "CREATE", "create") TOLOWER
Debug> #3956 594 ("The Ducks of the Northern Mar"_, "dm", "fowl", "8475", "green:brown", "CREATE", "create") SWAP
Debug> #3956 594 ("The Ducks of the Northern Mar"_, "dm", "fowl", "8475", "green:brown", "create", "CREATE") TOLOWER
Debug> #3956 594 ("The Ducks of the Northern Mar"_, "dm", "fowl", "8475", "green:brown", "create", "create") SWAP
Debug> #3956 594 ("The Ducks of the Northern Mar"_, "dm", "fowl", "8475", "green:brown", "create", "create") INSTR
Debug> #3956 594 ("The Ducks of the Northern Mar"_, "dm", "fowl", "8475", "green:brown", 1) NOT
Debug> #3956 594 ("The Ducks of the Northern Mar"_, "dm", "fowl", "8475", "green:brown", 0) IF->line599
Debug> #3956 599 ("The Ducks of the Northern Mar"_, "dm", "fowl", "8475", "green:brown") #8
Debug> #3956 599 ("The Ducks of the Northern Mar"_, "dm", "fowl", "8475", "green:brown", #8) "@guild/"
Debug> #3956 599 ("The Ducks of the Northern Mar"_, "dm", "fowl", "8475", "green:brown", #8, "@guild/") 6
Debug> #3956 599 ("The Ducks of the Northern Mar"_, "dm", "fowl", "8475", "green:brown", #8, "@guild/", 6) PICK
Debug> #3956 599 ("The Ducks of the Northern Mar"_, "dm", "fowl", "8475", "green:brown", #8, "@guild/", "dm") STRCAT
Debug> #3956 601 ("The Ducks of the Northern Mar"_, "dm", "fowl", "8475", "green:brown", #8, "@guild/dm") OVER
Debug> #3956 601 ("The Ducks of the Northern Mar"_, "dm", "fowl", "8475", "green:brown", #8, "@guild/dm", #8) OVER
Debug> #3956 601 (..., "dm", "fowl", "8475", "green:brown", #8, "@guild/dm", #8, "@guild/dm") "/name"
Debug> #3956 601 (..., "fowl", "8475", "green:brown", #8, "@guild/dm", #8, "@guild/dm", "/name") STRCAT
Debug> #3956 602 (..., "dm", "fowl", "8475", "green:brown", #8, "@guild/dm", #8, "@guild/dm/name") 9
Debug> #3956 602 (..., "fowl", "8475", "green:brown", #8, "@guild/dm", #8, "@guild/dm/name", 9) ROTATE
Debug> #3956 602 (..., "fowl", "8475", "green:brown", #8, "@guild/dm", #8, "@guild/dm/name", "The Ducks of the Northern Mar"_) SETPROP
Debug> #3956 604 ("dm", "fowl", "8475", "green:brown", #8, "@guild/dm") OVER
Debug> #3956 604 ("dm", "fowl", "8475", "green:brown", #8, "@guild/dm", #8) OVER
Debug> #3956 604 ("dm", "fowl", "8475", "green:brown", #8, "@guild/dm", #8, "@guild/dm") "/alias"
Debug> #3956 604 (..., "fowl", "8475", "green:brown", #8, "@guild/dm", #8, "@guild/dm", "/alias") STRCAT
Debug> #3956 605 ("dm", "fowl", "8475", "green:brown", #8, "@guild/dm", #8, "@guild/dm/alias") 8
Debug> #3956 605 (..., "fowl", "8475", "green:brown", #8, "@guild/dm", #8, "@guild/dm/alias", 8) PICK
Debug> #3956 605 (..., "fowl", "8475", "green:brown", #8, "@guild/dm", #8, "@guild/dm/alias", "dm") SETPROP

Program Error.  Your program just got the following error.
GuildEngine.muf(#3956), line 605; SETPROP: Permission denied.

System stack backtrace:
  3) GuildEngine.muf(#3956) line 607, in function MakeNewGuild:
8 pick setprop ( sa ss sh sc dp sp )
  2) GuildEngine.muf(#3956) line 1045, in function WizGuildStuff:
  dup "#add" instring if pop MakeNewGuild exit then
  1) GuildEngine.muf(#3956) line 1053, in function main:
  dup "Guild" instring if pop WizGuildStuff exit then
Done.

 

-- End Paste --

 

Just to make my point, here's an examine of #8:

 

-- Begin Paste --

 

IC Environment(#8RLKM)  Owner: Wixenstyx(#350PBCMIW4)
Type: ROOM  Flags: MEEPER LINK_OK KILL_OK
Key: *UNLOCKED*
Chown_OK Key: *UNLOCKED*
Container Key: *UNLOCKED*
Force Key: *UNLOCKED*
Succ: @$ObvExits
Created:  Mon Nov  5 18:26:08 CET 2001
Modified: Thu Dec  9 17:14:46 CET 2004
Lastused: Thu Dec  9 17:33:40 CET 2004
Usecount: 8
In Memory: 47506 bytes
Parent: The Utter East(#0RMGW4)

 

-- End Paste --

 

So my question is, why am I getting a permissions denied error?  As I said, the program is set W4.  And to make the whole thing all the more confusing, note that the program DOESN'T glitch when setting the '@guild/dw/name' prop, which is fundamentally identical (string prop, same @permissions required, etc.) to '@guild/dw/alias' 

 

Why would that be?  I can't understand it!

 

I've used this programs lots before now and never had this problem.  The only thing I could think of was that maybe there's some kind of check to regulate the amount of information stored on a single dbref#?  The IC Environment is obviously host to tons of IC global commands, properties for combat, etc.  Is there such a thing?  Could it be what is causing my error here?  Or is there something obvious that I'm missing?

 

Wix

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
      And one of the elders saith unto me, "Weep not:
Behold, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, hath prevailed..."
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Visit NarniaMUCK!  The finest Narnia-based RPG on the 'Net!
           http://www.narnia.godscreations.net
            telnet://narnia.godscreations.net:23
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

glowmuck@yahoogroups.com said the following on 16/11/2004 2:32 PM:

>
>
> We would like to remind you of this upcoming event.
>
> Seida's Birthday.  ;)
>
> Date: Tuesday, November 16, 2004
> Time: 8:30AM PST (GMT-08:00)
>
> =^_^= Happy birthday to me! Happy Birthday to ME!! -- Yeh...
> *whistles innocently*

Best wishes for your birthday Seida.

--
Snowy "Snowpony" Angelique Cerise Maslov -- http://snowy.org/email.signature
PGP (GnuPG) fingerprint = 5280 6EBC D281 A9D2 564B  E274 B2EC 54C3 8325 CECD
Email not addressed/CCd to snowy@... BOUNCE.  READ URL for disclaimer!
     "Ignorance killed the cat, sir. Curiosity was framed." ---C.J. Cherryh

We would like to remind you of this upcoming event.

Seida's Birthday.  ;)

Date: Tuesday, November 16, 2004
Time: 8:30AM PST (GMT-08:00)

=^_^= Happy birthday to me! Happy Birthday to ME!! -- Yeh...
*whistles innocently*

We would like to remind you of this upcoming event.

Seida's Birthday.  ;)

Date: Tuesday, November 16, 2004
Time: 8:30AM PST (GMT-08:00)

=^_^= Happy birthday to me! Happy Birthday to ME!! -- Yeh...
*whistles innocently*

Sorry for that last one getting through folks.  I have deleted the
message and banned the knob that sent it.  His domain made him sound
at least slightly technical.  I'm hoping this isn't one of the cases
where people in 3rd-world countries are being paid to figure out how
to get onto mailing lists and then spam them.

In hopes of nipping this in the bud, from this point forward all new
membership requests will have to provide a valid address of a muck
they are a member of so we can better verify they aren't spammers.
-Andy/PakRat (yes I'm still alive)

The reason why it's failing is because a W2-level program has to be owned
by a W2-level player.  Muf programs will only run at their set mucker
level if their owner is at least that level.  For most mucks, I set up a
special W3 character that isn't a normal Wizard player that owns all of
the common muck programs.  If a muf program has a mucker level lower than
it's owner's level, the program will run at that lower level also.

The reason for this should be somewhat obvious.  If a muf program was
granted a W2 or W3 level and this restriction didn't exist, the program
owner could change that program to do anything.  I.e. backdoors, or
putting in a completely different program instead.  By requiring the
player/owner also be that level, it ensures that said player is trusted
with that level of power.  It is possible to @chown a program back and
forth to make updates, and this allows the empowered wizard to verify
using diff or some other method that the changes are acceptable before
allowing the program to run rampant with godlike powers again.
-Andy

On Fri, 23 Jul 2004, Klythe Zantai-Vra'al wrote:

>    Is this the right place to ask for help on permissions?  I've been
> beating my head against for days this but I still can't figure out why
> this program I'm porting (Ginger's Another Directory) still runs into
> permissions problems even though it is SetUID and has W2 rights.  The
> MUCK administrator and I have a number of these programs that appear
> to have enough access, but are failing anyway...  We are both stumped.
>
>     The Glow MUCK site has SETOWN listed as a W2 power, so the program
> needs to run at that level.  So I got my administrator to grant the W2
> bits to the program, and I SETUIDed it so it will use itself for
> permissions rather than the trigger or the owner...  Out of
> desperation I tried all four permutations of the S and H flags, to no
> avail.  What am I not understanding about permissions that the program
>   can't use it's own rights?  I'm just a Mage, so the program should
> have no problem SETOWNING the link it creates in my name to the
> triggering player (which is the text that follow is my Mage anyway)
>
> >exam here
> Lucky Despot first floor lobby(#322RJM)  Owner: Kytira(#272PJDCMW)
>
> Type: ROOM  Flags: MEEPER JUMP_OK
> Key: *UNLOCKED*
> Chown_OK Key: *UNLOCKED*
> Container Key: *UNLOCKED*
> Force Key: *UNLOCKED*
> Succ: @$cmd/path
> Created:  Thu Jul  8 00:52:58 EDT 2004
> Modified: Thu Jul  8 01:15:03 EDT 2004
> Lastused: Fri Jul 23 08:35:35 EDT 2004
> Usecount: 11
> In Memory: 1946 bytes
> Parent: Room Zero(#0R)
> Exits:
> claim;clear;setdir(#319E) to Gad2.muf(#331FSW2)
> No paths.
>
> Contents:
> Kytira(#272PJDCMW)
> Gad2.muf(#331FSW2)
>
> >exam #319
> claim;clear;setdir(#319E)  Owner: Kytira(#272PJDCMW)
> Type: EXIT/ACTION  Flags:
>
{prop:claim/dirheader,here}{nl}{parse:t,{prop:claim/allowed,here},{midstr:{midsr\
:{&t},1,{subt:{instr:{&t},;},1}}:
>                           ,1,27}{prop:claim/{&t},here},,
> }{nl}{prop:claim/dirfooter,here}
>
> Key: *UNLOCKED*
> Chown_OK Key: *UNLOCKED*
> Container Key: *UNLOCKED*
> Force Key: *UNLOCKED*
> Created:  Thu Jul  8 01:03:16 EDT 2004
> Modified: Thu Jul  8 01:04:28 EDT 2004
> Lastused: Fri Jul 23 08:35:35 EDT 2004
> Usecount: 15
> In Memory: 481 bytes
> Source: Lucky Despot first floor lobby(#322RJM)
> Destination: Gad2.muf(#331FSW2)
>
> >exam #331
> Gad2.muf(#331FSW2)  Owner: Kytira(#272PJDCMW)
> Type: PROGRAM  Flags: WIZARD SETUID
> A scroll containing a spell called Gad2.muf
> Key: *UNLOCKED*
> Chown_OK Key: *UNLOCKED*
> Container Key: *UNLOCKED*
> Force Key: *UNLOCKED*
> Created:  Mon Jul  5 12:14:15 EDT 2004
> Modified: Sun Jul 18 18:29:05 EDT 2004
> Lastused: Fri Jul 23 08:49:14 EDT 2004
> Usecount: 51     Instances: 0
> In Memory: 34970 bytes
> Program compiled size: 1750 instructions
> Cummulative runtime: 0.000784 seconds
> Location: Lucky Despot first floor lobby(#322RJM)
>
> >claim 120
> Program Error.  Your program just got the following error.
>
> Gad2.muf(#331), line 117; SETOWN: Permission denied.
>
> System stack backtrace:
>
>   4) Gad2.muf(#331) line 118, in function claim_exit:
>   loc @ inexitname @ newexit dup inexitdb ! me @ setown
>   3) Gad2.muf(#331) line 141, in function quota_check:
>   claim_exit exit (then)
>   2) Gad2.muf(#331) line 150, in function claim_parser:
>     entry @ match dup 0 1 - dbref dbcmp if quota_check exit then
>   1) Gad2.muf(#331) line 349, in function main:
>   command @ "claim" stringcmp 0 = if claim_parser exit then
>
> Done.
>
>
>
>
> "Klingons are known for wearing their unusual costumes at
> charity events to attract media attention."
> Get your Free E-mail at http://www.beyondthegalaxy.net/klingonmail.htm
> ___________________________________________________________
> Get your own Web-based E-mail Service at http://www.zzn.com
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>

Is this the right place to ask for help on permissions?  I've been
beating my head against for days this but I still can't figure out why
this program I'm porting (Ginger's Another Directory) still runs into
permissions problems even though it is SetUID and has W2 rights.  The
MUCK administrator and I have a number of these programs that appear
to have enough access, but are failing anyway...  We are both stumped.

     The Glow MUCK site has SETOWN listed as a W2 power, so the program
needs to run at that level.  So I got my administrator to grant the W2
bits to the program, and I SETUIDed it so it will use itself for
permissions rather than the trigger or the owner...  Out of
desperation I tried all four permutations of the S and H flags, to no
avail.  What am I not understanding about permissions that the program
   can't use it's own rights?  I'm just a Mage, so the program should
have no problem SETOWNING the link it creates in my name to the
triggering player (which is the text that follow is my Mage anyway)

>exam here
Lucky Despot first floor lobby(#322RJM)  Owner: Kytira(#272PJDCMW)

Type: ROOM  Flags: MEEPER JUMP_OK
Key: *UNLOCKED*
Chown_OK Key: *UNLOCKED*
Container Key: *UNLOCKED*
Force Key: *UNLOCKED*
Succ: @$cmd/path
Created:  Thu Jul  8 00:52:58 EDT 2004
Modified: Thu Jul  8 01:15:03 EDT 2004
Lastused: Fri Jul 23 08:35:35 EDT 2004
Usecount: 11
In Memory: 1946 bytes
Parent: Room Zero(#0R)
Exits:
claim;clear;setdir(#319E) to Gad2.muf(#331FSW2)
No paths.

Contents:
Kytira(#272PJDCMW)
Gad2.muf(#331FSW2)

>exam #319
claim;clear;setdir(#319E)  Owner: Kytira(#272PJDCMW)
Type: EXIT/ACTION  Flags:
{prop:claim/dirheader,here}{nl}{parse:t,{prop:claim/allowed,here},{midstr:{midsr\
:{&t},1,{subt:{instr:{&t},;},1}}:
                           ,1,27}{prop:claim/{&t},here},,
}{nl}{prop:claim/dirfooter,here}

Key: *UNLOCKED*
Chown_OK Key: *UNLOCKED*
Container Key: *UNLOCKED*
Force Key: *UNLOCKED*
Created:  Thu Jul  8 01:03:16 EDT 2004
Modified: Thu Jul  8 01:04:28 EDT 2004
Lastused: Fri Jul 23 08:35:35 EDT 2004
Usecount: 15
In Memory: 481 bytes
Source: Lucky Despot first floor lobby(#322RJM)
Destination: Gad2.muf(#331FSW2)

>exam #331
Gad2.muf(#331FSW2)  Owner: Kytira(#272PJDCMW)
Type: PROGRAM  Flags: WIZARD SETUID
A scroll containing a spell called Gad2.muf
Key: *UNLOCKED*
Chown_OK Key: *UNLOCKED*
Container Key: *UNLOCKED*
Force Key: *UNLOCKED*
Created:  Mon Jul  5 12:14:15 EDT 2004
Modified: Sun Jul 18 18:29:05 EDT 2004
Lastused: Fri Jul 23 08:49:14 EDT 2004
Usecount: 51     Instances: 0
In Memory: 34970 bytes
Program compiled size: 1750 instructions
Cummulative runtime: 0.000784 seconds
Location: Lucky Despot first floor lobby(#322RJM)

>claim 120
Program Error.  Your program just got the following error.

Gad2.muf(#331), line 117; SETOWN: Permission denied.

System stack backtrace:

   4) Gad2.muf(#331) line 118, in function claim_exit:
   loc @ inexitname @ newexit dup inexitdb ! me @ setown
   3) Gad2.muf(#331) line 141, in function quota_check:
   claim_exit exit (then)
   2) Gad2.muf(#331) line 150, in function claim_parser:
     entry @ match dup 0 1 - dbref dbcmp if quota_check exit then
   1) Gad2.muf(#331) line 349, in function main:
   command @ "claim" stringcmp 0 = if claim_parser exit then

Done.




"Klingons are known for wearing their unusual costumes at
charity events to attract media attention."
Get your Free E-mail at http://www.beyondthegalaxy.net/klingonmail.htm
___________________________________________________________
Get your own Web-based E-mail Service at http://www.zzn.com

Yes, I realize this, this is why I think it would be wise to come up
with locking the primitive down. To take out the potential of misuse
if you would be willing to indulge my ranting.

I was actually thinking about the possibility of a new wizard flag to
rule the system primitive. Exclusive for site admin who also lead up
programming.

Make it funny, instead of the next valid step.. W5, which would be
the settable flag, it will read Endowed. and will be an extention of
#1's authority with the exception of adjusting other W5's and still
not able to adjust what #1 owns.

-----Original Message-----
From: Snowy Angeilque Maslov aka 'Snowpony' [mailto:snowy@...]
Sent: Friday, July 16, 2004 12:35 AM
To: glowmuck@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [glowmuck] Hey guys.. I pose to you a challenge.

Dustin said the following on 16/07/2004 4:43 PM:

> I need to calarify some things, so I do appoligize for the lousy
> spelling...
>
> Anyways, for those of you who are more robust in C and C++ I want
to
> pose to you a response for Andy's release of glow 3.1.8. --Andy had
> done what I'd ask him to, enable a translator to the shell... Andy
> also quoted that it was integrated firstly because it had been done
to
> fulfill my want to be able to cross over from the muck to the
server a
> way to manage to send email.
>
> Well... it works, you just gotta figure out what way to send a line
of
> text into the mail server to make it send in the raw format, but
you
> just got yourself a little piece of fourth programed source code.
>
> But moving right along, as previously mentioned the insecurities of
> the feature. As I was lead to understand that a program would only
run
> if the program was owned by #1 himself. [I mean, thats the way I do
it
> and it works.] With this in mind I need the volunteers to find all
the
> different ways to exploit the breeches in security and tighten 'um
up
> and come up with a response release of glow...
> either... 3.1.9..?
>
> If you're curious about detials I have a pretty good idea as to how
> we'll tighten up security.. and hey look, lets throw our own good
> humor about being omnipotents.. gotta make it funny. *cackles*
Gonna
> write up the details after I push "Send".
>
> --Anyways, If you feel this is worth exploring I think we'll make
both
> Andy and Feaelin proud if they (themselves included in this
> circulation I'm sure... Hey guys. *^_^*;;; *tries to look
innocent*)
> themselves approve of such a notion. Kinda pass the tourch a bit...
> Huh..?

The key issue here on the SYSTEM privilege is that it does allow you
to break out of the proverbial box of the MUCK itself and affect the
underlying system.
   Regardless of the issues of requiring #1 access to run the code it
is still something that would cause most system administrators to
flinch.

At times other people do require #1 access (adding/demoting W4 wizzes
for whatever reason), but an owner could usually expect for the muck
itself to not actually affecting anything outside it's core
environment.  There are other ways of automating transfers of
information in and out of muck that do not require shell/system
access be available for the muck program itself.

For example one could use polling handlers that login to the muck and
interact with a particular MUF program or using the HTTP server built
into the muck in combination with a sister program to pull data from
responses and post/mail them whilst operating as a separate USERID
(and a more restricted one at that) would certainly be better options.

The concept of running something directly from the MUCK itself is
certainly an interesting feature but one does need to be fully aware
of the ramifications of this action.

Now examining the code in in p_misc.c:

void
prim_system(PRIM_PROTOTYPE)
{
      const char *tstr;

      CHECKOP(1);
      oper1 = POP();
      result = 0;
      if (mlev < LMAN)
      abort_interp(NOPERM_MESG);
      if (fr->level > 8)
      abort_interp("Interp call loops not allowed");
      if (oper1->type != PROG_STRING || !oper1->data.string)
      abort_interp("Invalid argument");

      tstr = oper1->data.string->data;

      if((!tstr) || (!*tstr))
      abort_interp("Illegal NULL string (1)");

#ifdef INSECURE_SYSTEM_MUF_PRIM
      result = system(tstr);
#else
      abort_interp("system is not supported"); #endif

      CLEAR(oper1);
      PushInt(result);
}

The overall design of the system primitive is basic.  It makes sure
that the
mlevel of the program is at least the MAN.   It tries to make sure it
is not
being called in an loop operation that is greater than 8 iterations
deep and that the argument type passed to it is of a string type and
is not NULL.

It then dumps the string into the system call without any checking.
It would
be very easy to pass an 'rm -Rf $HOME' to this call.

Finally it returns and pushes the error code to the stack.

Andy was right in marking this code with a definition of
INSECURE_SYSTEM_MUF_PRIM.

My suggestions would include changing the system to some sort of
fork/exec (so that arguments passed to the program would also not be
able to be interpreted by the shell) in combination with a defined
set of allowed programs and perhaps feeding the stderr/stdout data
returned back into the stack.  At least then it would not have such
an unrestricted access to the underlying system and you would also
allow more than just an error code to be returned.

Is there a need for this sort of primitive?  Im still not sure but I
imagine it would allow for a more easier method of interaction with
the outside environment.  It just needs to be without the potential
for misuse.

My 5c.

--
Snowy "Snowpony" Angelique Cerise Maslov --
http://snowy.org/email.signature PGP (GnuPG) fingerprint = 5280 6EBC
D281 A9D2 564B  E274 B2EC 54C3 8325 CECD Email not addressed/CCd to
snowy@... BOUNCE.  READ URL for disclaimer!
     "Ignorance killed the cat, sir. Curiosity was framed." ---C.J.
Cherryh



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Yahoo! Groups Links

Dustin said the following on 16/07/2004 4:43 PM:

> I need to calarify some things, so I do appoligize for the lousy
> spelling...
>
> Anyways, for those of you who are more robust in C and C++ I want to
> pose to you a response for Andy's release of glow 3.1.8. --Andy had
> done what I'd ask him to, enable a translator to the shell... Andy
> also quoted that it was integrated firstly because it had been done
> to fulfill my want to be able to cross over from the muck to the
> server a way to manage to send email.
>
> Well... it works, you just gotta figure out what way to send a line
> of text into the mail server to make it send in the raw format, but
> you just got yourself a little piece of fourth programed source code.
>
> But moving right along, as previously mentioned the insecurities of
> the feature. As I was lead to understand that a program would only
> run if the program was owned by #1 himself. [I mean, thats the way I
> do it and it works.] With this in mind I need the volunteers to find
> all the different ways to exploit the breeches in security and
> tighten 'um up and come up with a response release of glow...
> either... 3.1.9..?
>
> If you're curious about detials I have a pretty good idea as to how
> we'll tighten up security.. and hey look, lets throw our own good
> humor about being omnipotents.. gotta make it funny. *cackles* Gonna
> write up the details after I push "Send".
>
> --Anyways, If you feel this is worth exploring I think we'll make
> both Andy and Feaelin proud if they (themselves included in this
> circulation I'm sure... Hey guys. *^_^*;;; *tries to look innocent*)
> themselves approve of such a notion. Kinda pass the tourch a bit...
> Huh..?

The key issue here on the SYSTEM privilege is that it does allow you to break
out of the proverbial box of the MUCK itself and affect the underlying system.
   Regardless of the issues of requiring #1 access to run the code it is still
something that would cause most system administrators to flinch.

At times other people do require #1 access (adding/demoting W4 wizzes for
whatever reason), but an owner could usually expect for the muck itself to not
actually affecting anything outside it's core environment.  There are other
ways of automating transfers of information in and out of muck that do not
require shell/system access be available for the muck program itself.

For example one could use polling handlers that login to the muck and interact
with a particular MUF program or using the HTTP server built into the muck in
combination with a sister program to pull data from responses and post/mail
them whilst operating as a separate USERID (and a more restricted one at that)
would certainly be better options.

The concept of running something directly from the MUCK itself is certainly an
interesting feature but one does need to be fully aware of the ramifications
of this action.

Now examining the code in in p_misc.c:

void
prim_system(PRIM_PROTOTYPE)
{
      const char *tstr;

      CHECKOP(1);
      oper1 = POP();
      result = 0;
      if (mlev < LMAN)
      abort_interp(NOPERM_MESG);
      if (fr->level > 8)
      abort_interp("Interp call loops not allowed");
      if (oper1->type != PROG_STRING || !oper1->data.string)
      abort_interp("Invalid argument");

      tstr = oper1->data.string->data;

      if((!tstr) || (!*tstr))
      abort_interp("Illegal NULL string (1)");

#ifdef INSECURE_SYSTEM_MUF_PRIM
      result = system(tstr);
#else
      abort_interp("system is not supported");
#endif

      CLEAR(oper1);
      PushInt(result);
}

The overall design of the system primitive is basic.  It makes sure that the
mlevel of the program is at least the MAN.   It tries to make sure it is not
being called in an loop operation that is greater than 8 iterations deep and
that the argument type passed to it is of a string type and is not NULL.

It then dumps the string into the system call without any checking.   It would
be very easy to pass an 'rm -Rf $HOME' to this call.

Finally it returns and pushes the error code to the stack.

Andy was right in marking this code with a definition of
INSECURE_SYSTEM_MUF_PRIM.

My suggestions would include changing the system to some sort of fork/exec (so
that arguments passed to the program would also not be able to be interpreted
by the shell) in combination with a defined set of allowed programs and
perhaps feeding the stderr/stdout data returned back into the stack.  At least
then it would not have such an unrestricted access to the underlying system
and you would also allow more than just an error code to be returned.

Is there a need for this sort of primitive?  Im still not sure but I imagine
it would allow for a more easier method of interaction with the outside
environment.  It just needs to be without the potential for misuse.

My 5c.

--
Snowy "Snowpony" Angelique Cerise Maslov -- http://snowy.org/email.signature
PGP (GnuPG) fingerprint = 5280 6EBC D281 A9D2 564B  E274 B2EC 54C3 8325 CECD
Email not addressed/CCd to snowy@... BOUNCE.  READ URL for disclaimer!
     "Ignorance killed the cat, sir. Curiosity was framed." ---C.J. Cherryh

I need to calarify some things, so I do appoligize for the lousy
spelling...

Anyways, for those of you who are more robust in C and C++ I want to
pose to you a response for Andy's release of glow 3.1.8. --Andy had
done what I'd ask him to, enable a translator to the shell... Andy
also quoted that it was integrated firstly because it had been done
to fulfill my want to be able to cross over from the muck to the
server a way to manage to send email.

Well... it works, you just gotta figure out what way to send a line
of text into the mail server to make it send in the raw format, but
you just got yourself a little piece of fourth programed source code.

But moving right along, as previously mentioned the insecurities of
the feature. As I was lead to understand that a program would only
run if the program was owned by #1 himself. [I mean, thats the way I
do it and it works.] With this in mind I need the volunteers to find
all the different ways to exploit the breeches in security and
tighten 'um up and come up with a response release of glow...
either... 3.1.9..?

If you're curious about detials I have a pretty good idea as to how
we'll tighten up security.. and hey look, lets throw our own good
humor about being omnipotents.. gotta make it funny. *cackles* Gonna
write up the details after I push "Send".

--Anyways, If you feel this is worth exploring I think we'll make
both Andy and Feaelin proud if they (themselves included in this
circulation I'm sure... Hey guys. *^_^*;;; *tries to look innocent*)
themselves approve of such a notion. Kinda pass the tourch a bit...
Huh..?

Later all,
--Seida.

--- falderalrah <grey2black@...> wrote:
> See, I have a glowmuck server set up at:
> telnet://pelelope.wolfpaw.net:2222
> Would there be anybody anyone knows or would anyone be interested in
> helping out with building and muf? Mainly upkeep and additions.
> Wizard positions available for those who are knowledgeable and
> dependable.

Well I don't have the time or energy to help with a new MU* these days....
however, here is a link to my MUF program site if it will help. :>

http://corax.no-ip.com/mufindex.html

Little warning. I am in the process of changing ISPs so the site may or may not
be down for a little while.

Good luck!



__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - Send 10MB messages!
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See, I have a glowmuck server set up at:
telnet://pelelope.wolfpaw.net:2222
Would there be anybody anyone knows or would anyone be interested in
helping out with building and muf? Mainly upkeep and additions.
Wizard positions available for those who are knowledgeable and
dependable.

Well, who you'd need to get permission from for working on Neon depends on
what version you're using.  The easiest way to tell is in the major
version number.  Originally when Neon was 1.x, it was called Ratty before
it was Neon.  I think somewhere I found some 1.6ish versions of Ratty,
which was when I just started coming up with some feeps and fixes for
Fuzzball.  Loki approached me somepoint when Neon/Ratty was in the 1.x
version area and had some ideas he wanted to put in, most notably a more
advanced webserver interface.  My main goals with Neon/Ratty was stability
and security, so advanced webserver features were very new and untested.
I became uncomfortable keeping those in the tree, so I decided it better
to back up before they were added and call the 'new' line Glow.
Eventually Loki stopped working on Neon and let me and the rest of the
community know.  I ran his NeoNet server for a while (eventually I just
couldn't keep it running, and the muck list dropped significantly).

So with that timeline, depending on the version of Neon you're thinking
of:
Neon/Ratty 1.x: Me (and possibly Loki in the later versions of Neon 1.x)
Neon 2.x: Loki (and me since it's still based on Neon/Ratty 1.x)
Glow 3.x: Just me (and now Feaelin as the official maintainer)

In all honest truth you shouldn't really need to get anyone's blessing to
make changes to the code.  I never received any official blessing from
Foxen/Revar or original TinyMuck authors to start working on the Ratty,
Neon, or Glow versions of the muck server.  I've never even known if
Foxen/Revar was warm or cold to the changes I or subsequent fiddlers have
made to the code.  Other than some bugfixes that I submitted to Foxen, I'm
not aware of any Glow code going back into Fuzzball, and I'd know as I had
to put the diffs between new versions of Fuzzball back into Glow.  Revar
did approach me at some point when ANSI color was being added to Fuzzball
6 to see how hard it would be to migrate from Glow's ANSI color to how
it's done in Fuzzball 6.  In the end it turned out that Fuzzball 6 does it
very differently in that the actual ANSI codes are embedded in the text,
where Glow won't insert ANSI codes until right before the text gets sent
over TCP/IP to the end-user.  I didn't like the idea of ESC characters
embedded in the text, and kept Glow's strings clean (only from ASCII space
to ASCII '~' are allowed).

The main permission you'd need to acquire is if you want to obtain
official maintainership of the code line.  I am not quite sure how to get
in contact with Loki nowadays as he's mostly left the muck scene from what
I know.  You can possibly find something on Google or try sending e-mails
to addresses he has listed in the code.  As far as the namesake
'NeonMuck', it is a name I originally coined, but I basically let Loki
take on the name as the 'official' Neon line of code, so as long as he
says it's ok for someone to take on the name, I wouldn't object to it.

If ProtoMuck truly is created from NeonMuck (which vaguely rings a bell),
and you haven't made any changes or enhancements to a NeonMuck version
already (or very few changes), I would really recommend using ProtoMuck
instead.  I've heard but never verified that NeonMuck 2.x had some
stability issues at times due to the extent of the new features added, so
logic dictates if ProtoMuck has been using those changes, that team has
probably fixed some bugs that would make the original Neon code work better.

Many of the changes in Glow were specifically to address crashing issues
in the original Fuzzball code, most of which were eventually fixed in
Fuzzball too.  It could pay off to dig through the later GlowMuck and
Fuzzball change logs to see if some of those fixed bugs could still exist
in the NeonMuck/ProtoMuck code.  I should still have the various version
diffs on muq.org/~legacy/glowmuck available, so it shouldn't be too hard
to find a specific crash fix.  I don't know if ProtoMuck integrated all
Fuzzball changes up to 5.68.  You should be able to find out by using
@version on a ProtoMuck.

-Andy/PakRat/Artie

On Fri, 9 Jul 2004, Lorrim wrote:

> Okay, given this response it looks like I asked the
> question in the right place.  Reason I'm asking is
> because I was going through some old CDs trying to
> figure out what I could throw away (yes, I have that
> many backup CDs) and ran across the Neon source code
> that I downloaded quite a while ago.  Since it never
> compiled cleanly I just kinda backed it up and figured
> I'd get back to it later.  Well, it's finally later.
> I've got the Neon 2.17 code compiling without errors
> or warnings with the standard options on Linux.  I
> knew that Protomuck was directly descended from Neon
> (says so on the sourceforge page anyway) and never was
> sure where Glow was in the family tree.  So now I
> know.
>
> Anyone of the original Neonmuck team have any
> objections to someone working on the code publicly?
> I'd kinda like to post what I've got somewhere and get
> some help getting everything working.  Why?  Because I
> promised myself I would get around to it.  Works for
> me anyway.  :)
>
> --- Artie <pakrat@...> wrote:
> >
> > Originally GlowMuck was NeonMuck, a name I came up
> > with to show off the
> > bright ANSI colors that did not exist in regular
> > Fuzzball 5.xx.  At some
> > point I changed the name from NeonMuck to GlowMuck
> > based on some more
> > extreme changes Loki wanted to do with the NeonMuck
> > code.  The concept of
> > 'Glow' came from being less bright than 'Neon', as
> > in less extreme changes.
> >
> > GlowMuck has no relation to ProtoMuck code.  If
> > there are any similarities
> > they would come from original Fuzzball code or
> > possibly if ProtoMuck
> > borrowed some of GlowMuck's code, which I wouldn't
> > object to as long as
> > proper credit is given.  In all honest truth, I've
> > been curious for years
> > just what ProtoMuck does, but I've never had the
> > gumption level to even
> > figure out where to download it from.
> >
> > As far as GlowMuck's future goes, I officially
> > retired from adding new
> > feeps at the turn of the millenium.  It seemed as
> > good a point as any.
> > A year or two ago I put the source code up on
> > SourceForge as project
> > 'glowmuck', but haven't made any new changes to it.
> >
> > Very recently I waved the knighting-sword Feaelin's
> > way as GlowMuck's
> > official maintainer as he's shown interest in at
> > least tidying a few
> > things up, particularly the muf code (which I admit
> > was never well put
> > together).  If anyone is interested in submitting
> > patches or changes,
> > send e-mail to Feaelin (*duck*).  A 3.1.9 version
> > isn't impossible, it
> > just has a lot of inertia holding it at 3.1.8.  When
> > Foxen/Revar stopped
> > releasing new real Fuzzball 5 versions, I lost a lot
> > of my impetus for
> > releasing new GlowMuck versions as well.
> >
> > I do still run Legacy with GlowMuck 3.1.8 at
> > pakrat.org:9999, so it's not
> > like I don't use GlowMuck anymore, it just does
> > everything I've wanted it
> > to do for some time, and nobody has sent in a
> > horrible server-crashing
> > bug report in years *knock on wood*.  (What, we can
> > still send those???)
> > The things I'd really like it to do are a bit too
> > much for the tinymuck
> > engine underneath to manage, so I've started over.
> > Living under three or
> > more levels of authorship and copyright also isn't
> > particularly appealing.
> > (It's the most logical path almost every mudserver
> > hacker takes at some
> > point in their illustrious career.)
> > -Andy/PakRat/Artie
> >
> > On Fri, 9 Jul 2004, Lorrim wrote:
> >
> > > Just out of curiosity, is Glowmuck a direct
> > descendant
> > > of Neonmuck or did it start with Fuzzball and
> > borrow
> > > some ideas from Neon?
> > >
> > > __________________________________________________
> > > Do You Yahoo!?
> > > Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam
> > protection around
> > > http://mail.yahoo.com
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Yahoo! Groups Links
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
> >
> >
> >
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >     glowmuck-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
> __________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - 100MB free storage!
> http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>

My mistake on the error, it's been over a year since i've had my hands my
old mu* archival project. Yes, one of my many projects was an archive of all
known (available) MU* servers - all publicly released versions of all
distributions, running on one dedicated linux server. You'd be able to read
about the features of each, and log in to that distribution, that release
version, tot ry it out yourself

Unfortunately, i've relocated homes several times in the last couple years,
and tha tproject's gone by the wayside. There used to be a very cool Family
Tree of *all* MU servers, that i loved to death. i've long sicne lost my
copy and bookmark to it =/

ANyway, good luck to you =)

-- Rayanth

-----Original Message-----
From: Artie [mailto:pakrat@...]
Sent: Friday, July 09, 2004 9:37 PM
To: GlowMUCK
Subject: Re: [glowmuck] Historical question



Originally GlowMuck was NeonMuck, a name I came up with to show off the
bright ANSI colors that did not exist in regular Fuzzball 5.xx.  At some
point I changed the name from NeonMuck to GlowMuck based on some more
extreme changes Loki wanted to do with the NeonMuck code.  The concept of
'Glow' came from being less bright than 'Neon', as in less extreme changes.

GlowMuck has no relation to ProtoMuck code.  If there are any similarities
they would come from original Fuzzball code or possibly if ProtoMuck
borrowed some of GlowMuck's code, which I wouldn't object to as long as
proper credit is given.  In all honest truth, I've been curious for years
just what ProtoMuck does, but I've never had the gumption level to even
figure out where to download it from.

As far as GlowMuck's future goes, I officially retired from adding new
feeps at the turn of the millenium.  It seemed as good a point as any.
A year or two ago I put the source code up on SourceForge as project
'glowmuck', but haven't made any new changes to it.

Very recently I waved the knighting-sword Feaelin's way as GlowMuck's
official maintainer as he's shown interest in at least tidying a few
things up, particularly the muf code (which I admit was never well put
together).  If anyone is interested in submitting patches or changes,
send e-mail to Feaelin (*duck*).  A 3.1.9 version isn't impossible, it
just has a lot of inertia holding it at 3.1.8.  When Foxen/Revar stopped
releasing new real Fuzzball 5 versions, I lost a lot of my impetus for
releasing new GlowMuck versions as well.

I do still run Legacy with GlowMuck 3.1.8 at pakrat.org:9999, so it's not
like I don't use GlowMuck anymore, it just does everything I've wanted it
to do for some time, and nobody has sent in a horrible server-crashing
bug report in years *knock on wood*.  (What, we can still send those???)
The things I'd really like it to do are a bit too much for the tinymuck
engine underneath to manage, so I've started over.  Living under three or
more levels of authorship and copyright also isn't particularly appealing.
(It's the most logical path almost every mudserver hacker takes at some
point in their illustrious career.)
-Andy/PakRat/Artie

On Fri, 9 Jul 2004, Lorrim wrote:

> Just out of curiosity, is Glowmuck a direct descendant
> of Neonmuck or did it start with Fuzzball and borrow
> some ideas from Neon?
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
> http://mail.yahoo.com
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>




Yahoo! Groups Links

Okay, given this response it looks like I asked the
question in the right place.  Reason I'm asking is
because I was going through some old CDs trying to
figure out what I could throw away (yes, I have that
many backup CDs) and ran across the Neon source code
that I downloaded quite a while ago.  Since it never
compiled cleanly I just kinda backed it up and figured
I'd get back to it later.  Well, it's finally later.
I've got the Neon 2.17 code compiling without errors
or warnings with the standard options on Linux.  I
knew that Protomuck was directly descended from Neon
(says so on the sourceforge page anyway) and never was
sure where Glow was in the family tree.  So now I
know.

Anyone of the original Neonmuck team have any
objections to someone working on the code publicly?
I'd kinda like to post what I've got somewhere and get
some help getting everything working.  Why?  Because I
promised myself I would get around to it.  Works for
me anyway.  :)

--- Artie <pakrat@...> wrote:
>
> Originally GlowMuck was NeonMuck, a name I came up
> with to show off the
> bright ANSI colors that did not exist in regular
> Fuzzball 5.xx.  At some
> point I changed the name from NeonMuck to GlowMuck
> based on some more
> extreme changes Loki wanted to do with the NeonMuck
> code.  The concept of
> 'Glow' came from being less bright than 'Neon', as
> in less extreme changes.
>
> GlowMuck has no relation to ProtoMuck code.  If
> there are any similarities
> they would come from original Fuzzball code or
> possibly if ProtoMuck
> borrowed some of GlowMuck's code, which I wouldn't
> object to as long as
> proper credit is given.  In all honest truth, I've
> been curious for years
> just what ProtoMuck does, but I've never had the
> gumption level to even
> figure out where to download it from.
>
> As far as GlowMuck's future goes, I officially
> retired from adding new
> feeps at the turn of the millenium.  It seemed as
> good a point as any.
> A year or two ago I put the source code up on
> SourceForge as project
> 'glowmuck', but haven't made any new changes to it.
>
> Very recently I waved the knighting-sword Feaelin's
> way as GlowMuck's
> official maintainer as he's shown interest in at
> least tidying a few
> things up, particularly the muf code (which I admit
> was never well put
> together).  If anyone is interested in submitting
> patches or changes,
> send e-mail to Feaelin (*duck*).  A 3.1.9 version
> isn't impossible, it
> just has a lot of inertia holding it at 3.1.8.  When
> Foxen/Revar stopped
> releasing new real Fuzzball 5 versions, I lost a lot
> of my impetus for
> releasing new GlowMuck versions as well.
>
> I do still run Legacy with GlowMuck 3.1.8 at
> pakrat.org:9999, so it's not
> like I don't use GlowMuck anymore, it just does
> everything I've wanted it
> to do for some time, and nobody has sent in a
> horrible server-crashing
> bug report in years *knock on wood*.  (What, we can
> still send those???)
> The things I'd really like it to do are a bit too
> much for the tinymuck
> engine underneath to manage, so I've started over.
> Living under three or
> more levels of authorship and copyright also isn't
> particularly appealing.
> (It's the most logical path almost every mudserver
> hacker takes at some
> point in their illustrious career.)
> -Andy/PakRat/Artie
>
> On Fri, 9 Jul 2004, Lorrim wrote:
>
> > Just out of curiosity, is Glowmuck a direct
> descendant
> > of Neonmuck or did it start with Fuzzball and
> borrow
> > some ideas from Neon?
> >
> > __________________________________________________
> > Do You Yahoo!?
> > Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam
> protection around
> > http://mail.yahoo.com
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
> --------------------~-->
> Yahoo! Domains - Claim yours for only $14.70
>
http://us.click.yahoo.com/Z1wmxD/DREIAA/yQLSAA/CefplB/TM
>
--------------------------------------------------------------------~->
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>     glowmuck-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>
>
>





__________________________________
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New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - 100MB free storage!
http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail

Originally GlowMuck was NeonMuck, a name I came up with to show off the
bright ANSI colors that did not exist in regular Fuzzball 5.xx.  At some
point I changed the name from NeonMuck to GlowMuck based on some more
extreme changes Loki wanted to do with the NeonMuck code.  The concept of
'Glow' came from being less bright than 'Neon', as in less extreme changes.

GlowMuck has no relation to ProtoMuck code.  If there are any similarities
they would come from original Fuzzball code or possibly if ProtoMuck
borrowed some of GlowMuck's code, which I wouldn't object to as long as
proper credit is given.  In all honest truth, I've been curious for years
just what ProtoMuck does, but I've never had the gumption level to even
figure out where to download it from.

As far as GlowMuck's future goes, I officially retired from adding new
feeps at the turn of the millenium.  It seemed as good a point as any.
A year or two ago I put the source code up on SourceForge as project
'glowmuck', but haven't made any new changes to it.

Very recently I waved the knighting-sword Feaelin's way as GlowMuck's
official maintainer as he's shown interest in at least tidying a few
things up, particularly the muf code (which I admit was never well put
together).  If anyone is interested in submitting patches or changes,
send e-mail to Feaelin (*duck*).  A 3.1.9 version isn't impossible, it
just has a lot of inertia holding it at 3.1.8.  When Foxen/Revar stopped
releasing new real Fuzzball 5 versions, I lost a lot of my impetus for
releasing new GlowMuck versions as well.

I do still run Legacy with GlowMuck 3.1.8 at pakrat.org:9999, so it's not
like I don't use GlowMuck anymore, it just does everything I've wanted it
to do for some time, and nobody has sent in a horrible server-crashing
bug report in years *knock on wood*.  (What, we can still send those???)
The things I'd really like it to do are a bit too much for the tinymuck
engine underneath to manage, so I've started over.  Living under three or
more levels of authorship and copyright also isn't particularly appealing.
(It's the most logical path almost every mudserver hacker takes at some
point in their illustrious career.)
-Andy/PakRat/Artie

On Fri, 9 Jul 2004, Lorrim wrote:

> Just out of curiosity, is Glowmuck a direct descendant
> of Neonmuck or did it start with Fuzzball and borrow
> some ideas from Neon?
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
> http://mail.yahoo.com
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>