I have a few questions about the proper pronunication of Gothic:

1. I know that "b" and "d" between vowels is pronounced as "v" and "th"
(voiced), e.g.

giban, like "givan"
badi, like "bathi"

what if one of these letters is followed by "j"? - my understanding is that this
glide is a semi-vowel.

So, is it rodjan or "rothjan"?
arbeidjan or "arbeithjan"?
gadaubjan or "gadauvjan"?

2. related to this, if a word has a prefix, how does this affect pronunication,
is the prefix pronounced separately, and the root word as normal, or does the
prefix alter the pronunciation of the root word, e.g.

is gadaban like "ga-davan" or "gathavan"?
anabiudan like "ana-byuthan" or "anavyuthan"?
fraitan like "fra-itan" or is the "ai" pronounced as the diphthong?

thanks in advance, I can't find this is any of my books

Eric

Hello, gotenfreund.
  As Wright has in his book, grammar of the Gothic Language, medial b and d are
pronounced as v and th between vowels and before consonants. J counts as a
consonant. This does not apply to prefixes. So to give examples:
Giban "givan"
Rodjan "rothjan"
Anabiudan "ana-bewthan"
Fraitan "fra-itan" The I in this word is written with the two dots above it,
showing that it is the start of a new syllable.

--- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "gotenfreund" <ekinzel@...> wrote:
>
> I have a few questions about the proper pronunication of Gothic:
>
> 1. I know that "b" and "d" between vowels is pronounced as "v" and "th"
(voiced), e.g.
>
> giban, like "givan"
> badi, like "bathi"
>
> what if one of these letters is followed by "j"? - my understanding is that
this glide is a semi-vowel.
>
> So, is it rodjan or "rothjan"?
> arbeidjan or "arbeithjan"?
> gadaubjan or "gadauvjan"?
>
> 2. related to this, if a word has a prefix, how does this affect
pronunication, is the prefix pronounced separately, and the root word as normal,
or does the prefix alter the pronunciation of the root word, e.g.
>
> is gadaban like "ga-davan" or "gathavan"?
> anabiudan like "ana-byuthan" or "anavyuthan"?
> fraitan like "fra-itan" or is the "ai" pronounced as the diphthong?
>
> thanks in advance, I can't find this is any of my books
>
> Eric
>

Hails,

I am in the process of writing a novella whose protagonist is Alaric.  I want
the Goths to have a Rallying Cry, like the US Marine's "Always Faithful"

I am wondering if "Sinteino hrotheigs" (Always Victorious) would be appropriate
and (since I am only writing about Goths, not a student of the language) are
these two words in their proper grammatical order of if this should be modified
if Gothic has declensions like Latin. (another language I am ignorant of).

Thank you.
Tom

The Gothic pronunciation is one thing but I can suggest what the Norman
crusaders cried when attacking their foes, namely "Tyr, Tyr!! And then they were
supposed to be Christians. Wonder what they cried in the old Varangian guard or
among the Gothic foederati? Why not Gaut,Gaut or Óooooðinn!?? Well, I am not too
serious of course...

Ingemar

--- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "Thomas" <the_lothian@...> wrote:
>
> Hails,
>
> I am in the process of writing a novella whose protagonist is Alaric.  I want
the Goths to have a Rallying Cry, like the US Marine's "Always Faithful"
>
> I am wondering if "Sinteino hrotheigs" (Always Victorious) would be
appropriate and (since I am only writing about Goths, not a student of the
language) are these two words in their proper grammatical order of if this
should be modified if Gothic has declensions like Latin. (another language I am
ignorant of).
>
> Thank you.
> Tom
>

It's an interesting question. The answer would depend, I think, on whether such
slogans are understood as:

1.) an admonition/imperative "(be) always victorious (!)"

2.) a statement "(we are) always victorious"

I don't know enough about Latin to be able to parse 'semper fidelis' to
determine into which of these categories it would fit.

How about "remember Adrianople!!"

:-)

--- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "Thomas" <the_lothian@...> wrote:
>
> Hails,
>
> I am in the process of writing a novella whose protagonist is Alaric.  I want
the Goths to have a Rallying Cry, like the US Marine's "Always Faithful"
>
> I am wondering if "Sinteino hrotheigs" (Always Victorious) would be
appropriate and (since I am only writing about Goths, not a student of the
language) are these two words in their proper grammatical order of if this
should be modified if Gothic has declensions like Latin. (another language I am
ignorant of).
>
> Thank you.
> Tom
>

Hailai,

the proposed "sinteino hrotheigs" conforms to "semper fidelis" in being
singular. But the Latin adjective could be either masculine or feminine, and
might refer to some collective word (I do not know whether that is the
intention). Likewise with the Gothic: is it the individual that shall be
triumphant (hrotheigs), a whole load of individuals (hrotheigai), or thiuda, the
nation (hrotheiga)?

Gerry T.


In a message dated 07/02/2012 16:56:06 GMT Standard Time,
ekinzel@... writes:

It's an  interesting question. The answer would depend, I think, on whether
such  slogans are understood as:

1.) an admonition/imperative "(be) always  victorious (!)"

2.) a statement "(we are) always victorious"

I  don't know enough about Latin to be able to parse 'semper fidelis' to
determine into which of these categories it would fit.

How about  "remember Adrianople!!"

:-)

--- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com,  "Thomas" <the_lothian@...> wrote:
>
> Hails,
>
> I am in the process of writing a novella whose protagonist is  Alaric.  I
want the Goths to have a Rallying Cry, like the US Marine's  "Always
Faithful"
>
> I am wondering if "Sinteino hrotheigs"  (Always Victorious) would be
appropriate and (since I am only writing about  Goths, not a student of the
language) are these two words in their proper  grammatical order of if this
should be modified if Gothic has declensions like  Latin. (another language I am
ignorant of).
>
> Thank  you.
>  Tom
>




------------------------------------

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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hails,

I was wondering.
The Vikings had a fatalistic view of life.
If you were fated to die today, there was nothing you could do to avoid it.
If you were not fated to die today, there was nothing you could do to get
yourself killed.

What was the Pre-Christian Gothic view on mortality?

Thanks.  You guys are great.
Tom

Have no idea about their fatalism. They venerated  as far as we can see the
normal fertility gods, i.e. primarily Frejr and Freja, earlier Ingr and Ingun,
but also Gaut/Óðinn but this was just for  chieftains and warriors. The normal
population venerated the fertility divinities. They also venerated the spirits
of their ancestors and every kunja hence had different ancestors and ceremonies.
Every kunja/tribe as well had own relics for the popular cult which were brought
with when crossing the limes when the Huns appeared.They also had a fertality
divinity, probably Freja,  that Athanaric during his persecution let send around
to all villages in Gutþiuda on a wagon to make everybody adore her to be sure no
Goths were Christian. When the chieftain  headed the warriors in fight as
representative of and embodying the god Óðinn/Wotan they probably had no fear of
death and hence could be claimed to be fatalistic but normally I am dubious.

Best
Ingemar

--- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "Thomas" <the_lothian@...> wrote:
>
> Hails,
>
> I was wondering.
> The Vikings had a fatalistic view of life.
> If you were fated to die today, there was nothing you could do to avoid it.
> If you were not fated to die today, there was nothing you could do to get
yourself killed.
>
> What was the Pre-Christian Gothic view on mortality?
>
> Thanks.  You guys are great.
> Tom
>

aint it true that the many different tribes had their own different german
lingos......so how was the communication between them......we all know the
different tribes collaborated very successfully......franks-goths, etc....

--- On Sat, 2/11/12, Ingemar Nordgren <ingemar@...> wrote:


From: Ingemar Nordgren <ingemar@...>
Subject: [gothic-l] Re: Gothic view of mortality
To: gothic-l@yahoogroups.com
Date: Saturday, February 11, 2012, 6:18 PM



 



Have no idea about their fatalism. They venerated as far as we can see the
normal fertility gods, i.e. primarily Frejr and Freja, earlier Ingr and Ingun,
but also Gaut/Óðinn but this was just for chieftains and warriors. The normal
population venerated the fertility divinities. They also venerated the spirits
of their ancestors and every kunja hence had different ancestors and ceremonies.
Every kunja/tribe as well had own relics for the popular cult which were brought
with when crossing the limes when the Huns appeared.They also had a fertality
divinity, probably Freja, that Athanaric during his persecution let send around
to all villages in Gutþiuda on a wagon to make everybody adore her to be sure
no Goths were Christian. When the chieftain headed the warriors in fight as
representative of and embodying the god Óðinn/Wotan they probably had no fear
of death and hence could be claimed to be fatalistic but normally I am dubious.

Best
Ingemar

--- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "Thomas" <the_lothian@...> wrote:
>
> Hails,
>
> I was wondering.
> The Vikings had a fatalistic view of life.
> If you were fated to die today, there was nothing you could do to avoid it.
> If you were not fated to die today, there was nothing you could do to get
yourself killed.
>
> What was the Pre-Christian Gothic view on mortality?
>
> Thanks. You guys are great.
> Tom
>








[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hi,

I am new to this group and first wanted to introduce myself.

My name is Alex and i am interested in Gothic history (especially after reading
a book on Alaric the Great). I have a background in archaeology (degree) and
attend excavations in my spare time.

I feel i am just starting out on learning about the 'Goth's' and find this Forum
useful. So thank you.

I wondered if i could throw out a question that has been intriguing me since i
read about this. This is the 'unction' (right word?) of Wamba into a King. Is
this the first king of the Visigothic race who was 'crowned' in this way? The
description i read of the ceremonial rite seems exceedingly strange.

Does anyone here have a view on this?

I would be most interested in discussing this further, of course, if others wish
to as well.

Alex

There are several legends about Wamba and it is definitely not the usual way a
Visigothic king was appointed. Some details even seem to be part of the
trubadour tradition from Provence which later continues in the stories of King
Arthur like the hunt of the hind. Also in the Didriks saga the same story  of
the hunt is recognizeable and it has as well roots in the Bysantine tradition. I
would pay no heed to that story.This was as well late in the Visigothic era and
the kings now, since  Reccared had claimed to be king of Gods grace, were
Catholic and not Arian and the church had  a strong position with the very
conservative Catholic Councils in Toledo persecuting  both Arians and Jews. A
saintly king suited well into the picture.

Welcome to the list. I as well hope we can discuss much history and not only
language. It is a little peculiar that we  discuss much more Gothic history on
Germanic list than on Gothic where it indeed should be discussed.

Best greetings
Ingemar

--- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "indiejones46" <indiana.jones465@...> wrote:
>
> Hi,
>
> I am new to this group and first wanted to introduce myself.
>
> My name is Alex and i am interested in Gothic history (especially after
reading a book on Alaric the Great). I have a background in archaeology (degree)
and attend excavations in my spare time.
>
> I feel i am just starting out on learning about the 'Goth's' and find this
Forum useful. So thank you.
>
> I wondered if i could throw out a question that has been intriguing me since i
read about this. This is the 'unction' (right word?) of Wamba into a King. Is
this the first king of the Visigothic race who was 'crowned' in this way? The
description i read of the ceremonial rite seems exceedingly strange.
>
> Does anyone here have a view on this?
>
> I would be most interested in discussing this further, of course, if others
wish to as well.
>
> Alex
>

This early there was no great difference between the different Germanic dialects
but they were quite close to Proto Germanic - at least that close that everybody
could understand each other enough.

Best
Ingemar

--- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, OSCAR HERRE <duke.co@...> wrote:
>
> aint it true that the many different tribes had their own different german
lingos......so how was the communication between them......we all know the
different tribes collaborated very successfully......franks-goths, etc....
>
> --- On Sat, 2/11/12, Ingemar Nordgren <ingemar@...> wrote:
>
>
> From: Ingemar Nordgren <ingemar@...>
> Subject: [gothic-l] Re: Gothic view of mortality
> To: gothic-l@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Saturday, February 11, 2012, 6:18 PM
>
>
>
>  
>
>
>
> Have no idea about their fatalism. They venerated as far as we can see the
normal fertility gods, i.e. primarily Frejr and Freja, earlier Ingr and Ingun,
but also Gaut/Ã"ðinn but this was just for chieftains and warriors. The normal
population venerated the fertility divinities. They also venerated the spirits
of their ancestors and every kunja hence had different ancestors and ceremonies.
Every kunja/tribe as well had own relics for the popular cult which were brought
with when crossing the limes when the Huns appeared.They also had a fertality
divinity, probably Freja, that Athanaric during his persecution let send around
to all villages in Gutþiuda on a wagon to make everybody adore her to be sure
no Goths were Christian. When the chieftain headed the warriors in fight as
representative of and embodying the god Ã"ðinn/Wotan they probably had no fear
of death and hence could be claimed to be fatalistic but normally I am dubious.
>
> Best
> Ingemar
>
> --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "Thomas" <the_lothian@> wrote:
> >
> > Hails,
> >
> > I was wondering.
> > The Vikings had a fatalistic view of life.
> > If you were fated to die today, there was nothing you could do to avoid it.
> > If you were not fated to die today, there was nothing you could do to get
yourself killed.
> >
> > What was the Pre-Christian Gothic view on mortality?
> >
> > Thanks. You guys are great.
> > Tom
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Wamba was indeed the first king of the Visigoths for
whom the ceremony of unction is expressedly
attested, but alreeady the canones of the IVth
council of Toledo in 633 imply that the kings were
unctioned as part of their accession to the throne
after the example of king David.

All the best,
              Andreas

"-"
ao.Univ.Prof.Dr.Andreas Schwarcz
Institut für österreichische  Geschichtsforschung
Universität Wien
Dr.Karl Lueger-Ring 1
A 1010 Wien
Austria
Tel.0043/1/42-77-272-16
Fax 0043/1/42-77-92-72
andreas.schwarcz@...


On 12 Feb 2012 at 12:29, Ingemar Nordgren wrote:

>
>
> There are several legends about Wamba and it is definitely not the usual
> way a Visigothic king was appointed. Some details even seem to be part
> of the trubadour tradition from Provence which later continues in the
> stories of King Arthur like the hunt of the hind. Also in the Didriks
> saga the same story of the hunt is recognizeable and it has as well
> roots in the Bysantine tradition. I would pay no heed to that story.This
> was as well late in the Visigothic era and the kings now, since Reccared
> had claimed to be king of Gods grace, were Catholic and not Arian and
> the church had a strong position with the very conservative Catholic
> Councils in Toledo persecuting both Arians and Jews. A saintly king
> suited well into the picture.
>
> Welcome to the list. I as well hope we can discuss much history and not
> only language. It is a little peculiar that we discuss much more Gothic
> history on Germanic list than on Gothic where it indeed should be
> discussed.
>
> Best greetings
> Ingemar
>
> --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "indiejones46" <indiana.jones465@...>
> wrote:
> >
> > Hi,
> >
> > I am new to this group and first wanted to introduce myself.
> >
> > My name is Alex and i am interested in Gothic history (especially
> after reading a book on Alaric the Great). I have a background in
> archaeology (degree) and attend excavations in my spare time.
> >
> > I feel i am just starting out on learning about the 'Goth's' and find
> this Forum useful. So thank you.
> >
> > I wondered if i could throw out a question that has been intriguing me
> since i read about this. This is the 'unction' (right word?) of Wamba
> into a King. Is this the first king of the Visigothic race who was
> 'crowned' in this way? The description i read of the ceremonial rite
> seems exceedingly strange.
> >
> > Does anyone here have a view on this?
> >
> > I would be most interested in discussing this further, of course, if
> others wish to as well.
> >
> > Alex
> >
>
>
>




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hi Andreas!

I did not grasp the meaning of unction but now  I have checked. I should have
done it before of course. Still it is evidently a ceremonie that was not in use
in Arian times as far as I grasp.

Best wishes
Ingemar

--- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "Andreas Schwarcz" <andreas.schwarcz@...>
wrote:
>
> Wamba was indeed the first king of the Visigoths for
> whom the ceremony of unction is expressedly
> attested, but alreeady the canones of the IVth
> council of Toledo in 633 imply that the kings were
> unctioned as part of their accession to the throne
> after the example of king David.
>
> All the best,
>              Andreas
>
> "-"
> ao.Univ.Prof.Dr.Andreas Schwarcz
> Institut für österreichische  Geschichtsforschung
> Universität Wien
> Dr.Karl Lueger-Ring 1
> A 1010 Wien
> Austria
> Tel.0043/1/42-77-272-16
> Fax 0043/1/42-77-92-72
> andreas.schwarcz@...
>
>
> On 12 Feb 2012 at 12:29, Ingemar Nordgren wrote:
>
> >
> >
> > There are several legends about Wamba and it is definitely not the usual
> > way a Visigothic king was appointed. Some details even seem to be part
> > of the trubadour tradition from Provence which later continues in the
> > stories of King Arthur like the hunt of the hind. Also in the Didriks
> > saga the same story of the hunt is recognizeable and it has as well
> > roots in the Bysantine tradition. I would pay no heed to that story.This
> > was as well late in the Visigothic era and the kings now, since Reccared
> > had claimed to be king of Gods grace, were Catholic and not Arian and
> > the church had a strong position with the very conservative Catholic
> > Councils in Toledo persecuting both Arians and Jews. A saintly king
> > suited well into the picture.
> >
> > Welcome to the list. I as well hope we can discuss much history and not
> > only language. It is a little peculiar that we discuss much more Gothic
> > history on Germanic list than on Gothic where it indeed should be
> > discussed.
> >
> > Best greetings
> > Ingemar
> >
> > --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "indiejones46" <indiana.jones465@>
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > Hi,
> > >
> > > I am new to this group and first wanted to introduce myself.
> > >
> > > My name is Alex and i am interested in Gothic history (especially
> > after reading a book on Alaric the Great). I have a background in
> > archaeology (degree) and attend excavations in my spare time.
> > >
> > > I feel i am just starting out on learning about the 'Goth's' and find
> > this Forum useful. So thank you.
> > >
> > > I wondered if i could throw out a question that has been intriguing me
> > since i read about this. This is the 'unction' (right word?) of Wamba
> > into a King. Is this the first king of the Visigothic race who was
> > 'crowned' in this way? The description i read of the ceremonial rite
> > seems exceedingly strange.
> > >
> > > Does anyone here have a view on this?
> > >
> > > I would be most interested in discussing this further, of course, if
> > others wish to as well.
> > >
> > > Alex
> > >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Dear Ingemar,
No,it was not in use before the Visigoths became
catholics, and some suppose that it was introduced
by Chindasvinth. But José Orlandis already refers to
a citation of unctioned bishops and kings in
Isidore's De rebus ecclesiasticis before 631 C.E.
and thought it probable that already Liuva II, the
son of Reccared, was unctioned.

All the best,
                 Andreas



"-"
ao.Univ.Prof.Dr.Andreas Schwarcz
Institut für österreichische  Geschichtsforschung
Universität Wien
Dr.Karl Lueger-Ring 1
A 1010 Wien
Austria
Tel.0043/1/42-77-272-16
Fax 0043/1/42-77-92-72
andreas.schwarcz@...


On 12 Feb 2012 at 17:59, Ingemar Nordgren wrote:

>
>
> Hi Andreas!
>
> I did not grasp the meaning of unction but now I have checked. I should
> have done it before of course. Still it is evidently a ceremonie that
> was not in use in Arian times as far as I grasp.
>
> Best wishes
> Ingemar
>
> --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "Andreas Schwarcz"
> <andreas.schwarcz@...> wrote:
> >
> > Wamba was indeed the first king of the Visigoths for
> > whom the ceremony of unction is expressedly
> > attested, but alreeady the canones of the IVth
> > council of Toledo in 633 imply that the kings were
> > unctioned as part of their accession to the throne
> > after the example of king David.
> >
> > All the best,
> > Andreas
> >
> > "-"
> > ao.Univ.Prof.Dr.Andreas Schwarcz
> > Institut für österreichische Geschichtsforschung
> > Universität Wien
> > Dr.Karl Lueger-Ring 1
> > A 1010 Wien
> > Austria
> > Tel.0043/1/42-77-272-16
> > Fax 0043/1/42-77-92-72
> > andreas.schwarcz@...
> >
> >
> > On 12 Feb 2012 at 12:29, Ingemar Nordgren wrote:
> >
> > >
> > >
> > > There are several legends about Wamba and it is definitely not the
> usual
> > > way a Visigothic king was appointed. Some details even seem to be
> part
> > > of the trubadour tradition from Provence which later continues in
> the
> > > stories of King Arthur like the hunt of the hind. Also in the
> Didriks
> > > saga the same story of the hunt is recognizeable and it has as well
> > > roots in the Bysantine tradition. I would pay no heed to that
> story.This
> > > was as well late in the Visigothic era and the kings now, since
> Reccared
> > > had claimed to be king of Gods grace, were Catholic and not Arian
> and
> > > the church had a strong position with the very conservative Catholic
> > > Councils in Toledo persecuting both Arians and Jews. A saintly king
> > > suited well into the picture.
> > >
> > > Welcome to the list. I as well hope we can discuss much history and
> not
> > > only language. It is a little peculiar that we discuss much more
> Gothic
> > > history on Germanic list than on Gothic where it indeed should be
> > > discussed.
> > >
> > > Best greetings
> > > Ingemar
> > >
> > > --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "indiejones46" <indiana.jones465@>
> > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Hi,
> > > >
> > > > I am new to this group and first wanted to introduce myself.
> > > >
> > > > My name is Alex and i am interested in Gothic history (especially
> > > after reading a book on Alaric the Great). I have a background in
> > > archaeology (degree) and attend excavations in my spare time.
> > > >
> > > > I feel i am just starting out on learning about the 'Goth's' and
> find
> > > this Forum useful. So thank you.
> > > >
> > > > I wondered if i could throw out a question that has been
> intriguing me
> > > since i read about this. This is the 'unction' (right word?) of
> Wamba
> > > into a King. Is this the first king of the Visigothic race who was
> > > 'crowned' in this way? The description i read of the ceremonial rite
> > > seems exceedingly strange.
> > > >
> > > > Does anyone here have a view on this?
> > > >
> > > > I would be most interested in discussing this further, of course,
> if
> > > others wish to as well.
> > > >
> > > > Alex
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
>
>
>




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Thank you Andreas!

You are a steady rock to lean towards when troublesome questions appear!

All the best
Ingemar

--- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "Andreas Schwarcz" <andreas.schwarcz@...>
wrote:
>
> Dear Ingemar,
> No,it was not in use before the Visigoths became
> catholics, and some suppose that it was introduced
> by Chindasvinth. But José Orlandis already refers to
> a citation of unctioned bishops and kings in
> Isidore's De rebus ecclesiasticis before 631 C.E.
> and thought it probable that already Liuva II, the
> son of Reccared, was unctioned.
>
> All the best,
>                 Andreas
>
>
>
> "-"
> ao.Univ.Prof.Dr.Andreas Schwarcz
> Institut für österreichische  Geschichtsforschung
> Universität Wien
> Dr.Karl Lueger-Ring 1
> A 1010 Wien
> Austria
> Tel.0043/1/42-77-272-16
> Fax 0043/1/42-77-92-72
> andreas.schwarcz@...
>
>
> On 12 Feb 2012 at 17:59, Ingemar Nordgren wrote:
>
> >
> >
> > Hi Andreas!
> >
> > I did not grasp the meaning of unction but now I have checked. I should
> > have done it before of course. Still it is evidently a ceremonie that
> > was not in use in Arian times as far as I grasp.
> >
> > Best wishes
> > Ingemar
> >
> > --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "Andreas Schwarcz"
> > <andreas.schwarcz@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Wamba was indeed the first king of the Visigoths for
> > > whom the ceremony of unction is expressedly
> > > attested, but alreeady the canones of the IVth
> > > council of Toledo in 633 imply that the kings were
> > > unctioned as part of their accession to the throne
> > > after the example of king David.
> > >
> > > All the best,
> > > Andreas
> > >
> > > "-"
> > > ao.Univ.Prof.Dr.Andreas Schwarcz
> > > Institut für österreichische Geschichtsforschung
> > > Universität Wien
> > > Dr.Karl Lueger-Ring 1
> > > A 1010 Wien
> > > Austria
> > > Tel.0043/1/42-77-272-16
> > > Fax 0043/1/42-77-92-72
> > > andreas.schwarcz@
> > >
> > >
> > > On 12 Feb 2012 at 12:29, Ingemar Nordgren wrote:
> > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > There are several legends about Wamba and it is definitely not the
> > usual
> > > > way a Visigothic king was appointed. Some details even seem to be
> > part
> > > > of the trubadour tradition from Provence which later continues in
> > the
> > > > stories of King Arthur like the hunt of the hind. Also in the
> > Didriks
> > > > saga the same story of the hunt is recognizeable and it has as well
> > > > roots in the Bysantine tradition. I would pay no heed to that
> > story.This
> > > > was as well late in the Visigothic era and the kings now, since
> > Reccared
> > > > had claimed to be king of Gods grace, were Catholic and not Arian
> > and
> > > > the church had a strong position with the very conservative Catholic
> > > > Councils in Toledo persecuting both Arians and Jews. A saintly king
> > > > suited well into the picture.
> > > >
> > > > Welcome to the list. I as well hope we can discuss much history and
> > not
> > > > only language. It is a little peculiar that we discuss much more
> > Gothic
> > > > history on Germanic list than on Gothic where it indeed should be
> > > > discussed.
> > > >
> > > > Best greetings
> > > > Ingemar
> > > >
> > > > --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "indiejones46" <indiana.jones465@>
> > > > wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > Hi,
> > > > >
> > > > > I am new to this group and first wanted to introduce myself.
> > > > >
> > > > > My name is Alex and i am interested in Gothic history (especially
> > > > after reading a book on Alaric the Great). I have a background in
> > > > archaeology (degree) and attend excavations in my spare time.
> > > > >
> > > > > I feel i am just starting out on learning about the 'Goth's' and
> > find
> > > > this Forum useful. So thank you.
> > > > >
> > > > > I wondered if i could throw out a question that has been
> > intriguing me
> > > > since i read about this. This is the 'unction' (right word?) of
> > Wamba
> > > > into a King. Is this the first king of the Visigothic race who was
> > > > 'crowned' in this way? The description i read of the ceremonial rite
> > > > seems exceedingly strange.
> > > > >
> > > > > Does anyone here have a view on this?
> > > > >
> > > > > I would be most interested in discussing this further, of course,
> > if
> > > > others wish to as well.
> > > > >
> > > > > Alex
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Hi,

I wanted to ask you all something which I find a bit silly and yet at the
same time, interesting. Namely, how many people around the world speak
gothic? A guess? Anything?

Leonardo

--
How to pronounce my surname: fri:ðu:nanθ


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

i speak it with a friend, coleague of mine.....we use it as a special type of
code communication.....

--- On Mon, 2/13/12, Leonardo Frithunanthz H-C <leonardo.f.h.c@...> wrote:


From: Leonardo Frithunanthz H-C <leonardo.f.h.c@...>
Subject: [gothic-l] Number of speakers
To: gothic-l@yahoogroups.com
Date: Monday, February 13, 2012, 11:46 AM



 



Hi,

I wanted to ask you all something which I find a bit silly and yet at the
same time, interesting. Namely, how many people around the world speak
gothic? A guess? Anything?

Leonardo

--
How to pronounce my surname: fri:ðu:nanθ

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]








[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hi

Thank you so much for the replies. I hope my question was not too
troublesome.

I do, however, have a reason for asking it.

May i continue, even though it might seem bizarre?


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I don't speak it as such (near as I can figure there's no else in Alaska to
speak it to), but I do translate in and out of it some.  My translation of
Luke is on hold though until I can finish translating a 14th C. English
book of courtesy. :(

Claire

On 13 February 2012 09:21, OSCAR HERRE <duke.co@...> wrote:

> **
>
>
> i speak it with a friend, coleague of mine.....we use it as a special type
> of code communication.....
>
> --- On Mon, 2/13/12, Leonardo Frithunanthz H-C <leonardo.f.h.c@...>
> wrote:
>
> From: Leonardo Frithunanthz H-C <leonardo.f.h.c@...>
> Subject: [gothic-l] Number of speakers
> To: gothic-l@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Monday, February 13, 2012, 11:46 AM
>
>
>
>
> Hi,
>
> I wanted to ask you all something which I find a bit silly and yet at the
> same time, interesting. Namely, how many people around the world speak
> gothic? A guess? Anything?
>
> Leonardo
>
> --
> How to pronounce my surname: fri:ðu:nanθ
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hello, all!

I'm having a bit of a brain fart about whether a specific word should be in the
Nominative case or the Accusative.

Here is the sentence, you'll see which word I'm not sure to use:
"...miþþanei unwitans magun þiudanos/þiudanans wisan?"

This isn't exactly saying "X is Y" in which case both X and Y are nominative,
but for X to become Y, does Y take a different case?

Hello.
I must be in the nominative case. Not only "to be" is a copula, even "to
become", "to keep being", "to stay something" and "to seem as" are copulas and
are those kinds of verbs where both arguments are in the nominative case. What
is your mother language? For English speakers this might be hard, because there
is hardly no case opposition, but for Germans or other case languages that might
be easier, as they do it intuitively.
Your sentence then is: "...miþþanei unwitans magun þiudanos wisan"
But I'm not sure about the order, whether it must be: þiudanos wisan or wisan
þiudanos. I would say the latter one.
Liubos goleinis.
Kevin

I knew there was a specific word for this (copula), but I'd have to dig through
a couple Latin books to find it. I did not know that there were that many Copula
in Gothic. My mother tongue is German, but German doesn't really have any
changes in nouns from Nom. to Akk.

--- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "kevin.behrens@..."
<becareful_icanseeyourfuture@...> wrote:
>
> Hello.
> I must be in the nominative case. Not only "to be" is a copula, even "to
become", "to keep being", "to stay something" and "to seem as" are copulas and
are those kinds of verbs where both arguments are in the nominative case. What
is your mother language? For English speakers this might be hard, because there
is hardly no case opposition, but for Germans or other case languages that might
be easier, as they do it intuitively.
> Your sentence then is: "...mi��anei unwitans magun �iudanos wisan"
> But I'm not sure about the order, whether it must be: �iudanos wisan or
wisan �iudanos. I would say the latter one.
> Liubos goleinis.
> Kevin
>

Hailai,

A thing to watch about the case that goes with forms of the verb "to be" is
  that it is sometimes accusative. This applies even in English in sentences
like  these:

  they believe him (not he, obviously) to be the  culprit
they believe the culprit to be him (not he,  less obviously)

Likewise in Gothic

  ...unte wissedun Xristu ina wisan
they knew him to be Christ  (Luke 4:41)

  ...hwana mik qithand mans wisan?
whom do men say me to be?  (Mark 8:27)

Interestingly the second example was originally translated in the King
James bible as

  whom do men say that I am?

but was later corrected to

  who do men say that I am?

since this is not an example of an accusative and infinitive, though it was
  in the Greek.

Gerry T.


In a message dated 15/02/2012 00:58:37 GMT Standard Time,
anheropl0x@... writes:

I knew  there was a specific word for this (copula), but I'd have to dig
through a  couple Latin books to find it. I did not know that there were that
many Copula  in Gothic. My mother tongue is German, but German doesn't
really have any  changes in nouns from Nom. to Akk.

--- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com,  "kevin.behrens@..."
<becareful_icanseeyourfuture@...>  wrote:
>
> Hello.
> I must be in the nominative case. Not  only "to be" is a copula, even "to
become", "to keep being", "to stay  something" and "to seem as" are copulas
and are those kinds of verbs where  both arguments are in the nominative
case. What is your mother language? For  English speakers this might be hard,
because there is hardly no case  opposition, but for Germans or other case
languages that might be easier, as  they do it intuitively.
> Your sentence then is: "...mi��anei  unwitans magun �iudanos wisan"
> But I'm not sure about the order,  whether it must be: �iudanos wisan
or wisan �iudanos. I would say the  latter one.
> Liubos goleinis.
>  Kevin
>




------------------------------------

You  are a member of the Gothic-L list.  To unsubscribe, send a blank email
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hello,
in German it is quite easy if you just ask for it: Er wird "wer oder was"? Or:
Er scheint "wer oder was" zu sein? In comparison to: Er imitiert "wen oder was"?

Well, but in such sentences "he believe him to be blablabla" the accusative
appears as an argument ov the verb which is further described by the infinitive.
The accusative doesn't appear as to happen of course of the copula.

Greetings,
Kevin


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Dear all,

The Moneta web site (www.moneta.be) has been completely reorganized to
present the new 2012 publications (8 volumes in press or published since
January 2012).

The catalogue has been reorganized to list the 130 volumes published before
2012.

Moneta publishes book on world numismatics or/and monetary history, from
Antiquity to 19th century, in several languages. You will find volumes on
Antiquity, Middle Ages, Modern period, etc., and concerning many European
countries, but also on Japan, world trade in 16-18th, etc.

Best wishes



Georges Depeyrot (CNRS/ENS/UMR 8546)

ANR DAMIN.....................http://www.anr-damin.net
Personal
page..................http://cnrs.academia.edu/GeorgesDepeyrot
http://www.archeo.ens.fr/spip.php?article931
Moneta
publications........<http://www.moneta.be/>http<http://www.moneta.be/>://www.mon\
eta.be
[2012: vol 131-8 in press]



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hello,
I'm wondering how spring and fall and the word season would be in Gothic. Words
like summer "asans" and winter "wintrus" are documented, but not the both other
ones.
Liubos goleinis,
Kevin

I'm currently on my phone, so I can't access any of the neoglism files, but I
was curious what you might think the translations of these two words/phrases
are.

Resistance (Widerstand)
Too many (zu viel)

I found in one dictionary that has andstandan for to resist, but I'm not sure
which suffix to use to make it a noun. I haven't looked at wiktionary yet, but I
doubt it will have much (I often reconstruct from proto-germanic or go by
analogy of another Germanic language). If I can think of any more words, I will
add them.

Also, German Abschied (parting or farewell). Pretty obvious it would come from
something like the verb afskaidan, though the verb to bid farewell is andqithan,
I believe.

--- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "anheropl0x" <anheropl0x@...> wrote:
>
> I'm currently on my phone, so I can't access any of the neoglism files, but I
was curious what you might think the translations of these two words/phrases
are.
>
> Resistance (Widerstand)
> Too many (zu viel)
>
> I found in one dictionary that has andstandan for to resist, but I'm not sure
which suffix to use to make it a noun. I haven't looked at wiktionary yet, but I
doubt it will have much (I often reconstruct from proto-germanic or go by
analogy of another Germanic language). If I can think of any more words, I will
add them.
>

Hello,
for german "Abschied" there could also be the possibility by "twisstandan", so
"Twisstand". "Andqithan" would be a little more in the sense of "entsagen".
Even we could etymological reconstruct "afskeidan" we shouldn't do it since it
is apparently not used for that sense.

"Zu viel/too much" would be as far as I think: "du filu". "Resistance" would
then be "Andstand".
I would say you can build nouns of verbs by just dropping the ending and then
change the ablaut. In this case the vocal stays the same.

To: gothic-l@yahoogroups.com
From: anheropl0x@...
Date: Sat, 25 Feb 2012 05:50:36 +0000
Subject: [gothic-l] Re: Some words




























       Also, German Abschied (parting or farewell). Pretty obvious it would come
from something like the verb afskaidan, though the verb to bid farewell is
andqithan, I believe.



--- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "anheropl0x" <anheropl0x@...> wrote:

>

> I'm currently on my phone, so I can't access any of the neoglism files, but I
was curious what you might think the translations of these two words/phrases
are.

>

> Resistance (Widerstand)

> Too many (zu viel)

>

> I found in one dictionary that has andstandan for to resist, but I'm not sure
which suffix to use to make it a noun. I haven't looked at wiktionary yet, but I
doubt it will have much (I often reconstruct from proto-germanic or go by
analogy of another Germanic language). If I can think of any more words, I will
add them.

>


















[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]