in my books there is no plural given for words of the so called u
declension neutrum.
my paradigm is
faihu
faihaus
faihau
faihu

(faiha
(faihe
(faihum
(faiha
is what i would expect, does anyone know what the forms should be?


one more thing, i begun with a dictionary, has anyone already written
any wordlist or dictionary?
my format is pretty easy, fx.

wair;Ma;man
the word;declension, gender....;translation

i guess it could be used online with cgis....

eric

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Where can I find the text to Codex Argentus written with our
alphabet.
Tore Gannholm

eric

Christian Petersen wrote:
>
> Dear Bertil, dear members,
> Felix Ludwig Sophus DAHN has produced a vast amount of literature - not
> everything of equal value.
> However, I was not lucky in finding any work of 1899. Is what you refer
> to identical with what his offspring Friedel has published later on in
> the name of Felix?

Chris,

All I can say is that the publishing company
provided the following information:

"Bearbeitete, ungekuertzte Neuausgabe mit
saemtlichen Abbildungen und Karten der im
Verlag Baumgaertel Berlin 1899 erschienenen
4 Baende umfassenden Urgeschichte der
germanischen und romanischen Voelker. Heraus-
gegeben von Alexander Heine. Der vorliegende
Band entspricht von der Aufteilung der Erst.
ausgabe Band I ungekuertzt".

In view of this my previous info might have
been somewhat misleading. The new edition
is Volume I of the four volume work on the
Germanich and Romanic peoples by Dahn.

Best wishes

Bertil Haggman


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Eric Craven wrote:
> 19 pple right now, could some of you who have some minutes try to get the
> listing and report whether it works with them, else i have to change
> something (although i dunno what yet)
As for me, it works out, Eric
Have a nice weekend; Chris
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"M. Edward Carver" wrote:

> How many people are on the list now, Eric?
>
> (For the benefit of everyone)
>
> Matt

19 pple right now, could some of you who have some minutes try to get the
listing and report whether it works with them, else i have to change
something (although i dunno what yet)

tx

eric

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How many people are on the list now, Eric?

(For the benefit of everyone)

Matt
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Dear Bertil, dear members,
Felix Ludwig Sophus DAHN has produced a vast amount of literature - not
everything of equal value.
However, I was not lucky in finding any work of 1899. Is what you refer
to identical with what his offspring Friedel has published later on in
the name of Felix?
Gawairthi; Chris
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> > The work by William Holmes Bennett has been published several times,
> > e.g.:
> > 1972: Ann Arbor: Ulrich's Books, Incorporated
> > 1981: New York: Modern Language Association
> > If you know German, the 'Gotische Grammatik' by Wilhelm Braune & Ernst
> > Ebbinghaus would probably be the most useful one.
> is it
> Neugotische Grammatik mit Lesestücken und Wörterverzeichnis. ( Sammlung
> kurzer Grammatiken germ. Dialekte.)
> ??
> why is it
> "new gothic"??
It's not; your source must be wrong. One rather should ask, why
Bennett's work has been published by the MODERN Language Association.
However, you may look for BRAUNE/HELM/EBBINGHAUS:
Gotische Grammatik - mit Lesestücken und Wörterverzeichnis;
[Sammlung kurzer Grammatiken germanischer Dialekte A 1]
Tübingen (Max Niemeyer Verlag) 1981, in the 19th edition.
Take Care; Chris
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Christian Petersen wrote:

> Eric Craven wrote:
> >
> > does anyone know An Introduction to the Gothic Language by
> > Bennet/Lehmann (1981)?
> > or any other good books on language and syntax? i got just an old 50
> > page manual (i guess from 1910/20), so any help would be appreciated.
>
> The work by William Holmes Bennett has been published several times,
> e.g.:
> 1972: Ann Arbor: Ulrich's Books, Incorporated
> 1981: New York: Modern Language Association
> If you know German, the 'Gotische Grammatik' by Wilhelm Braune & Ernst
> Ebbinghaus would probably be the most useful one (not only because I'm
> working on it, but because they take the recent results in account).

is it
Neugotische Grammatik mit Lesestücken und Wörterverzeichnis. ( Sammlung
kurzer Grammatiken germ. Dialekte.)
??
why is it
"new gothic"??

>
> Other common standards are e.g. Krause (German), Mossé (French), and
> Streitberg (German [Swiss actually]).
> Chris

tx

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I'd like to draw the attention of members of the list that I've started
correcting Streitberg's text, as far as Codex Argenteus is concerned:

http://www.cs.tut.fi/~dla/Codex_Argenteus/Cod_Arg.html

I think that there should be one text which as close to the original as possible
and then everybody else can edit and correct as much as he or she wants - under
his or her name. Streitberg's text, as far as I've noticed while comparing it to
the original Codex, has too many  unacceptable 'correction.'
I'll be more than happy to get comments.
David Landau
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Eric Craven wrote:
>
> does anyone know An Introduction to the Gothic Language by
> Bennet/Lehmann (1981)?
> or any other good books on language and syntax? i got just an old 50
> page manual (i guess from 1910/20), so any help would be appreciated.

The work by William Holmes Bennett has been published several times,
e.g.:
1972: Ann Arbor: Ulrich's Books, Incorporated
1981: New York: Modern Language Association
If you know German, the 'Gotische Grammatik' by Wilhelm Braune & Ernst
Ebbinghaus would probably be the most useful one (not only because I'm
working on it, but because they take the recent results in account).
Other common standards are e.g. Krause (German), Mossé (French), and
Streitberg (German [Swiss actually]).
Chris
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Ulf Wiman wrote:
>
> Neo-Gothic in order to have any function would have to resort to neologisms,
i.e., to expand its lexical range.  Here, I am not in a position to pontificate
which manner is better or worse.  I suppose we can be as puristic as the
Icelanders and coin lexica employing internal sources and on occasion use loan
translations.  Or perhaps like the Dutch or Danish and accept any international
coinage. I guess here, since I am Swedish, that the Swedish language as far
neologisms are concerned stand betw
>
> But, I think we need to consider the fact that Gothic, as represented by the
Silver Bible, had already incorporated at least in its ecclesiastical cloak many
Greek words and loan translations.
>
> Question:  How much does Gutnish (Gotländska) have that could be Gothic?  The
same for the Swedish spoken on Runö until WWII.
>
> Just musings and I love the dialogue we are starting!
>
> Ulfie

Well Ulfie, first question:  Why do your lines go on and on, and not
wrap automatically to the window.  Hey, I even try the wrap-long-lines
command and that fails.  Just a question; secondly, isn't this Gutnish
you refer to a member of the eastern branch of North Gmc.?  Therefore
any similarities with Gothic would be coincidental or shared among the
entirety of the Germanic family.  But you suggest that Gothic influenced
Eastern North Gmc. in specific regions with the effect that the
languages bore differences we mark as dialectal, which however were in
origin due to gothic (gutrazda) influence.  Hmmmm...

As for the Hellenized Gothic of the Silver Bible: Wulfila (& authors)
had no choice but to assume directly the greek vocabulary into Gothic
itself.  There were no precedents (even Latin could not withstand the
temptation to borrow thus) for the refusal of such absorption, and they
certainly must innocently have felt that it was not a corruption of
their language, the remnants of which we prize so much.  In short, the
Goths had a very normal, unromantic view of their language, and
perceived the Greek borrowings not only as necessary but most sensible.
The Icelanders' take on linguistic purity has ostensibly owed much to
their historical isolation and ethnic/cultural homogeneity; the Goths,
however, were not known for being satisfied with staying sundered and
ruling themselves, of which trait Theodoric is just one example.

Matt
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Neo-Gothic in order to have any function would have to resort to neologisms,
i.e., to expand its lexical range.  Here, I am not in a position to pontificate
which manner is better or worse.  I suppose we can be as puristic as the
Icelanders and coin lexica employing internal sources and on occasion use loan
translations.  Or perhaps like the Dutch or Danish and accept any international
coinage. I guess here, since I am Swedish, that the Swedish language as far
neologisms are concerned stand between the two above mentioned examples.  I
realize I could be off mark, I know that I am more often than not.

But, I think we need to consider the fact that Gothic, as represented by the
Silver Bible, had already incorporated at least in its ecclesiastical cloak many
Greek words and loan translations.

Question:  How much does Gutnish (Gotländska) have that could be Gothic?  The
same for the Swedish spoken on Runö until WWII.

Just musings and I love the dialogue we are starting!

Ulfie

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Although Herwig Wolfram of course is
the leading modern expert in the West on
the Goths it might be of interest
to read the famous _Die Goten - Ost-
germanen - Die Voelker der gotischen
Gruppe_ by Felix Dahn, a German
Professor who toward the end of the
19th century published extensively
on the Goths. His four volume
work of 1899 has now been published
in a comprehensive one volume work
in Germany (Emil Vollmer Verlag,
ISBN 3-88851-180-1).

Underneath a short list of contents
translated from German to English:

I   The Germanics
II  Cultural Level in Asia
III The Migration of the Germanics to Europe
IV  The Europe before the Germanics
V   The Sagas of the Germanics
VI  The Names "Germani" and "German"
VII The Distribution of the Germanic Peoples
VIII The Land of the Germanics
IX. The People
X.  Settlement and Division of Land
XI. Legal Views and Constitutions on the Trek
XII. Culture: Language, Literature, the Runes,
      Music, Science
XIII. Gods and Mythology

PART 1

The East Germanics - The Peoples of the Gothic Group

Book I  The Vandals
Appendix: The Alans

Book II: The Ostrogoths

Four chapters

Book III: The Visigoths

Five Chapters
Appendix: The Suebic Peple

Bokk IV The Smaller Gothic Peoples

Appendix: Nine different lists of kings and rulers

544 pages.

Gothically

Bertil Haggman


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My main interest is the question of
the origin of the Goths and the
ongoing work among researchers to
compare the Gothic of the Silver
Bible with various languages and
dialects to find clues.

Gothically

Bertil Haggman
NPMP, Sweden


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does anyone know An Introduction to the Gothic Language by
Bennet/Lehmann (1981)?
or any other good books on language and syntax? i got just an old 50
page manual (i guess from 1910/20), so any help would be appreciated.

eric

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as we are talking about gothic pages, i put one up a year ago, i am
working on a new one, so this is fairly incomplete, but for those who
want to have a look, its at
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Acropolis/7981/gothic.html
and a superb resource of texts if project wulfila at
http://studwww.rug.ac.be/~tdeherdt/wulfila/Texts/Texts.html
check it out, (david, are you the david from the project? u did VERY
good work, i`d say)

eric

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Eric Craven wrote:

> > Script: Gothic probably needs to employ the Latin script without any
diacritical marks in order to make it comply with ANSI conventions.
> >
>
> well, i dont like the idea of changing it all, fx [ai] (=short e) changing to
something else...., but does anyone have any ideas what it would look like
finally?

Isn't there an official documentation for Gothic?  We could just
download the preferences into our browsers and use that.  Otherwise a
romanization could be employed NOT as a replacement for the Wulfilian
script, just as an ascii convention.

> isnt the pronounciation more or less known? my book provides quite an exact
guide to pronounciation (maybe its wrong, dunno..)

Enough with your passive-aggressive paranthetical statements, Eric.  Of
course it's right.  The pronunciation is fairly simple and and
well-attested.

> > Grammar: It retains as much as possible of the Wulfi[li]an grammar.
> i`d say we keep all, or what would u abolish?

I'm sure he doesn't mean abolish anything.  It's just that the remnant
texts don't provide us with every single grammatical situation that we
would encounter in modern composition, not to mention they're highly
hellenized (greek-influenced).  Therefore we will have to fill in the
blanks, as it were, with comparative Germanics.  However, we will
definitely have to make a distinction between this and Wulfila's Gothic.

> btw anyone prepared to try to talk in gothic via irc/...?
> we could try to open a channel once more..
>
> eric

One step at a time, Eric.  Remember, involved people are needed first
before we can conceive of anything like an irc-list, which requires
constant or fairly-constant usage over a number of days to get
authorized. --Matt
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Here's an example I drew up of what a site devoted to this "new" gothic
language might look like.  The links aren't up yet.

http://www.csulb.edu/~mcarver/goth.html

BTW concerning eric's apprehension toward "revising" gothic: revision is
the only way we're going to be able to use Gothic as a viable language,
to express everything the modern person requires expression of.
Revision is actually the wrong word.  Augmentation is a better one.
We're pumping life into Gothic.  Any original 'Gothic' spoken or written
nowadays is perforce 'new' and unlike anything before, simply by
definition of being 'original'.  It's unattested.  You can try to stay
as 'traditional' as you want, but you're still creating new Gothic.
Therefore, why not go for the gusto and bring Gothic up to its fullest?
The Gothic language has phonetic and grammatical traits which set it
apart in beauty and mode from other languages.  It could be a terrific
means of communication and expression of thought and feeling.  We can
make it such.

--Matt
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Ulf Wiman wrote:

> Matt:
>
> I would like to see, my own opinion, and maybe somewhat naive, an attempt to
promote an interest in the Gothic language and to advance a language
resuscitation based on the embers of Gothic.  This does not involve any
Wagnerian fantasy with racial overtones.  By Gothic we don't mean a literary
‘horror' genre or an architecture style, but a language revival based on real
Gothic.  This could not entirely be the Wulfian Gothic of the fourth century,
but a language using the existing structures of the language and utilizing
examples of other language movements, e.g. Cornish, Ivrit (Hebrew), and Nynorsk
(New Norse).  This by its nature does not entail a "pure" Gothic of the
fourth-century language, but a language capable of neologism and loan
translations from Germanic languages, like contemporary German and Icelandic,
e.g.
>
> Script: Gothic probably needs to employ the Latin script without any
diacritical marks in order to make it comply with ANSI conventions.
>

well, i dont like the idea of changing it all, fx [ai] (=short e) changing to
something else...., but does anyone have any ideas what it would look like
finally?

> Pronunciation: The Germanic pronunciation of Icelandic could be an "deal," 
not the standard, but rather a direction.

isnt the pronounciation more or less known? my book provides quite an exact
guide to pronounciation (maybe its wrong, dunno..)

>
> Grammar: It retains as much as possible of the Wulfian grammar.
>

i`d say we keep all, or what would u abolish?

> Glossaries: Known Gothic words, Germanic loan translations.
>

loan words is a good idea

> Syntax: Like modern Germanic languages.
>

dont we have enough syntax in the known texts? we could stay with that, i`d
prefer a gothic as close to the original as possible.
btw anyone prepared to try to talk in gothic via irc/...?
we could try to open a channel once more..

eric

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Sounds cool.  Let's draught a formal proposal as a basis, and outline
the "new" gothic, or "filled-in" gothic; a sort of consititution, if you
will, which will describe the grammatical structure of the language, as
well as a section on syntax, vocabulary, and neologismic mechanics
(rules for creating new words).  I know of some texts that describe
germanic sound changes in general,  as well as specifically what Gothic
went through.  This could be useful in determining what the "missing"
vocabulary might look like.  We would also need to describe the style
and usage in comparison to other languages, i.e. what makes it
structurally different than west or north germanic.  it certainly is
more versatile a language, and easier to build new words from its many
(at wulfila's time) actively employed word-formation affixes.

	 Matt
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Matt:

I would like to see, my own opinion, and maybe somewhat naive, an attempt to
promote an interest in the Gothic language and to advance a language
resuscitation based on the embers of Gothic.  This does not involve any
Wagnerian fantasy with racial overtones.  By Gothic we don't mean a literary
‘horror' genre or an architecture style, but a language revival based on real
Gothic.  This could not entirely be the Wulfian Gothic of the fourth century,
but a language using the existing structures of the language and utilizing
examples of other language movements, e.g. Cornish, Ivrit (Hebrew), and Nynorsk
(New Norse).  This by its nature does not entail a "pure" Gothic of the
fourth-century language, but a language capable of neologism and loan
translations from Germanic languages, like contemporary German and Icelandic,
e.g.

Script: Gothic probably needs to employ the Latin script without any diacritical
marks in order to make it comply with ANSI conventions.
Pronunciation: The Germanic pronunciation of Icelandic could be an "ideal,"  not
the standard, but rather a direction.
Grammar: It retains as much as possible of the Wulfian grammar.
Glossaries: Known Gothic words, Germanic loan translations.
Syntax: Like modern Germanic languages.

Ulfie (just a thought!)



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ULF!!! good to read that your on the list! I think you were one of the
original persons Eric and I talked with about starting the list the last
time.  How are your studies going?

--Matt
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> >My main interests in Gothic are compositional, with an emphasis
> >(currently) on recreating the Gothic 'voice', and I am thus
> >fundamentally interested in 'filling in' the Gothic vocabulary through
> >comparative linguistics.
> we have a lot of work to do on that, afaik there are many gaps in the
> vocabulary (fx 4th, 7th ...)
>
>
> >PS: Eric, do you have the addresses of those who were on the original
> >Gothic list?  There were some great minds.  Maybe they are on the group
> >right now!  That would be great.  In any event, could you relate what
> >has happened with you since your sudden disappearance, as well as the
> >cause thereof?
>
> i guess i can find them, i will check and enter anybody that i find. u could
> try to write some kind of welcome message, i guess u got the one i wrote
> (not very long), ur english is better than mine
> i ll write about me when we have some more pple
>
> tx for helping me to do this once more
>
> eric


Dear Eric:

I find you idea of reviving or re-instating the Gothic language very
fascinating.

Ulfie
>
>



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About my MnE-Gothic dictionary (response to Eric's offline question) I
haven't had much time to work on it recently....
I've been working on my MnE-OE dictionary most recently.  My first
version (@9000 entries) is online, a second in the works.  It's at:

	 http://www.csulb.edu/~mcarver/oedbindex.html

I'm attempting to reassemble my Gothic Pages files (some might be
familiar with these) and revamp them for upload, but it could take a
while before I get them totally ready.

In the meantime, I wonder what would be the best way to get a total
Gothic vocabulary.  I think if we get the glossaries from books covering
the entirety of the Gothic literary corpus, that would be great.  Not
sure about the legality.  I've got the money to buy them, I just don't
know where to get them.  If anyone has an idea, out with it!

--Matt

BTW it would be nice to find a way to get rid of those annoying little
ads at the bottom of the page, but i guess that's what you get when it's
free.
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Chalk another one up for the new Gothic List.  I'm glad we're getting
new members.  This time around, let's try to keep things going, even if
we don't have any groundbreaking information on Gothic, the Goths, etc.
The worst is to let a list fizzle to death.

Matt

BTW does Eric have the old emails from the original list?  I want to
recall some of the things we invented for greetings and language.  I
recall one person made an admirable effort to compose his emails in
Gothic!
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Dear Friend:

Sign me up!  I am glad we are at it again.  Kudos!

Ulfie
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>My main interests in Gothic are compositional, with an emphasis
>(currently) on recreating the Gothic 'voice', and I am thus
>fundamentally interested in 'filling in' the Gothic vocabulary through
>comparative linguistics.
we have a lot of work to do on that, afaik there are many gaps in the
vocabulary (fx 4th, 7th ...)


>PS: Eric, do you have the addresses of those who were on the original
>Gothic list?  There were some great minds.  Maybe they are on the group
>right now!  That would be great.  In any event, could you relate what
>has happened with you since your sudden disappearance, as well as the
>cause thereof?

i guess i can find them, i will check and enter anybody that i find. u could
try to write some kind of welcome message, i guess u got the one i wrote
(not very long), ur english is better than mine
i ll write about me when we have some more pple

tx for helping me to do this once more

eric


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Hello.  My name is Matt Carver and I was associated with the
establishment of the original (or former) gothic list.  I had a site
called "the gothic language pages", but I removed it from the web
because I could not maintain it at the time.  I am however interested in
putting it back up, and will look into doing so soon.

My main interests in Gothic are compositional, with an emphasis
(currently) on recreating the Gothic 'voice', and I am thus
fundamentally interested in 'filling in' the Gothic vocabulary through
comparative linguistics.

Looking forward to good Gothic-language discussions!

Matt Carver

PS: Eric, do you have the addresses of those who were on the original
Gothic list?  There were some great minds.  Maybe they are on the group
right now!  That would be great.  In any event, could you relate what
has happened with you since your sudden disappearance, as well as the
cause thereof?
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