Speaking of tenses I wonder somethings.

First of all, is gothic poor with tenses?
What I can understand there's only one for now, present tense. And
one for what has happend, preterite. So in that case what would be in
english:
I saw (or did see if that's a possible form), I have seen, and I had
seen. These will all be translated in gothic to Ik sahw.
Also a future tense I guess there is, but that's just skulan +
infinitive.
If I'm not totaly wrong it could also work with present participle to
describe something that happens or happend at a special time. E.g.
Broşar meins gaggands ist/was. = My brother is/was going.
Or, broşar meins gaggis/iddja şagkjands. = My brother is/was thinking
whilst he goes/went.
I wonder most if there's any way to translate a sentence such as have
done, had done. And maybe a lot other tenses that I can think of
right now.

I have been a bit confused lately. In my book I've read that there's
three moods in gothic. The swedish names of these are indikativ,
konjunktiv and imperativ. I'm not good at the english names of
grammar word but when I checked it out in a dictionary it turned out
that konjunktiv is subjunctive in english. In verbix it says that the
three moods are indicative, imperative and optative. Btw. optative is
optativ in swedish. What's real? Is this third mood subjunctive or
optative? As far as I know it ain't much difference between them
anyway, but I don't know for sure.

/Fredrik

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Hi, Fredrik,

The German authors (like Streitberg a century ago and Koebler in the
present) speak about "Indikativ, Optativ, Imperativ". David Salo in
his "Gothic Lessons" speaks about "Indicative, Subjunctive,
Imperative", and it seems to me that most English-speaking authors use
this terminology. As far as I remember the mood called "Subjunctive"
or "Optativ" functions mainly as an optative in Gothic.

Francisc

--- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "Fredrik" <gadrauhts@h...> wrote:
> ....
> I have been a bit confused lately. In my book I've read that there's
> three moods in gothic. The swedish names of these are indikativ,
> konjunktiv and imperativ. I'm not good at the english names of
> grammar word but when I checked it out in a dictionary it turned out
> that konjunktiv is subjunctive in english. In verbix it says that the
> three moods are indicative, imperative and optative. Btw. optative is
> optativ in swedish. What's real? Is this third mood subjunctive or
> optative? As far as I know it ain't much difference between them
> anyway, but I don't know for sure.
>
> /Fredrik

Hails Fredrik!

If you see numbers in [] square brackets in this message, look at
the bottom of the page for footnotes.  Yes, I'm afraid it's come to
that...

Gothic has three moods: indicative, imperative and one other which
can be called either "subjunctive" (=konjunktiv) or "optative".  I
think "subjunctive" means a mood for unreal or doubtful
actions.  "Optative" means to do with wished or desired actions or
intentions.  The Gothic optative/subjunctive performs both
functions, so either name would be appropriate.  Some people use
one, some the other.  Most English books that I've seen on the early
Germanic languages use "subjunctive".  Wright calls
it "subjunctive".  Streitberg and Braune "Optativ".  Histiorically,
the inflections of this mood (in Gothic and the other Germanic
languages) are descended from those of the Indo-European optative.

At first sight, Gothic does seem to have a limited range of tenses,
but actually it's not as bad as it looks.  True, the future is often
not expressed, but then even in English you could say "We´re going
shopping", "they´re getting married", "I'm sitting an exam
tomorrow", "She leaves in three weeks time", "do that again and
you're dead!" (a threat) – all with future meaning.  Likewise in
Gothic J 8,36, jabai nu sunus izwis frijans briggiş, bi sunjai
frijai sijuş "so if the son makes you free (ELEUQERWSH), then you
really will be (ESESQE) free".  Both of these verbs are future in
Greek, both present in Gothic.  In the Early Modern English of the
King James Bible, both verbs are explicitly future, but in modern
colloquial English the first verb at least would normally be
present.  And compare the Swedish "Om nu Sonen gör eder fria, så
bliven i verkligen fria."  In English "would that it were not so"
(past subjunctive), or more colloquially "if only it wasn't like
this" (past indicative), both use past forms in reference to the
present state of affairs.  Gothic too uses the preterite subjunctive
for unreal conditions, whether past, present or future: jabai şis
fairhvaus weseiş, aişşau so manaseds swesans frijodedi "if you were
of this world then the world would love its own" – but you're not,
so the world doesn't love you (J 15,19).

But even if Gothic doesn't normally require the future to be
expressed, there are various ways of making it clear, where
necessary.  In fact, a distinction is made between two types of
future, durative and perfective – but more on that later.  And
although the Gothic preterite is used more freely than the simple
past in English, and appears also where English has a perfect or
pluperfect, Gothic does have some other ways of emphasising past
action relevant to the present, where need be (e.g. the dative
absolute).  Here´s a list of some of the distinctions Gothic
expresses; see below for an explanation of these terms.


English                  Gothic

present                      present
continuous present  durative present

simple past         durative preterite, perfective preterite
continuous past     durative preterite
perfect             durative present, perfective preterite, absolute
pluperfect          durative preterite, perfective preterite,
absolute

future              present, durative future, perfective future
future-in-past      future-in-past



*The following is just my interpretation.  Don't take it as in any
way authoritative or complete – I still have a lot to learn!  In
particular, my knowledge of New Testament Greek is still very
limited.  Again, see below for a fuller explanation.



I am sitting (i.e. in a state of being seated) – sita, sitands im
I sit down, I will sit down (i.e. go from a standing to a sitting
state) - gasita

I sat, I was sitting, I would (on various occasions in the past)
sit – sat, sitands was
I sat down – gasat
I have sat down – sita, gasat
I had sat down – gasat
I had been sitting – sat, sitands was
having sat down, when I sat down, when I had sat down – (at) mis
gasitandin
while I was sitting, with me having been sitting – (at) mis sitandin

I will sit, I will be sitting - sita
I will sit down – gasita
I will sit, I will be sitting, I will go on sitting, I will continue
to sit – sitan haba
I will sit, I will [be, continue] sitting; I begin to sit – sitan
duginna
I will sit, I will [be, continue] sitting; I must sit – sitan skal
?(I will (gradually) come to be seated – sitands wairşa)?
I would (later) sit down – gasitan habaida
I would (later) be sitting – sitan habaida, sitan dugann, sitan
skulda
shall I sit, should I sit? – sitau?

jabai sita, ni gadriusa – if I'm sitting, I won't fall (REAL
CONDITION, generally applicable to any time period when I sit)

jabai sitau, sitan habau (duginnau, skuljau) – if I was sitting be
sitting (should I happen to be sitting), I would go on sitting
(POTENTIAL CONDITION, a future possibility, something that may
happen)

ni nauhşanuh setjau, gasetjau, akei sat – if I wasn't already
sitting (If I hadn't already been sitting), I would sit down (I
would have have sat down), but I was sitting (NEGATIVE UNREAL
CONDITION, no time distinction made)

iş setjau, nauh sitan habaidedjau, akei ni sat – if I was sitting, I
would have gone on sitting (would go on sitting), but I wasn´t
sitting (POSITIVE UNREAL CONDITION, no time distinction made)



To begin at the beginning...  In Gothic, as in the Slavonic
languages, the idea of time is linked to the idea of "aspect" [1].
There are essentially two aspects: perfective and durative
(imperfective) [2].  Perfective verbs express a single action with
no reference to it lasting for any length of time (they may imply
the beginning of a task, the action taken as a whole event, the
completion of a task, even the successful result).  Durative verbs
(also called "imperfective") describe an ongoing action, something
that is (has been, or will be) happening for some duration.

Perfective verbs are sometimes simple (niman, qiman, finşan, qişan,
wairşan), but more often are formed from the corresponding durative
by means of a prefix, especially GA-, though sometimes another
prefix with a more specific meaning [4].  In the following I'll use
the English continuous tenses to translate the duratives, but it
would be possible with some verbs in some contexts to translate them
with the simple tenses.

sitan "to be sitting" (durative)
gasitan "to sit down" (perfective); ussitan "to sit up" (perfective)

standan "to be standing" (durative)
gastandan "to stop, to come to a standstill" (perfective);
usstandan "to stand up" (perfective)

swiltan "to be dying"
gaswiltan "to die"

rodjan "to speak" (durative)
qişan "to say" (perfective)

wisan "to be" (durative)
wairşan "to become" (perfective)

swa rinnaiş, ei garinnaiş "run in such a way that you achieve the
result of running", in other words: "run to win"!  King James
Bible: "so run, that ye may attain."  Good News Bible: "run then in
such a way as to receive the prize".  Swedish 1917 "Löpen såsom
denne, för att I mån vinna lönen" (1Cor 9,24).


The perfective present typically implies future action, as in
Russian [3], and is sometimes used to make a contrast between
present and future.

timreiş OIKODOMEI "builds" (1Cor 10,23)
gatimrja OIKODOMHSW "I will build" (Mk 14,58)

gaarma şanei arma ELEHSW ´ON AN ELEW KAI OIKTIRHSW ´ON AN OIKTIRW "I
will take pity on whoever I pity and I will have mercy on whoever I
am merciful towards".  Swedish 1917 "Jag skall vara barmhärtig mot
den jag vill vara barmhärtig emot, och jag skall förbarma mig över
den jag vill förbarma mig över" (R 9,15).


The future of the verb "to be" is often, but not always, rendered
with WAIRŞAN [5].

jus wairşiş mis du sunum jah dauhtrum "you will be (ESESQE) my sons
and daughters" (2Cor 16,18).
guda sijuş "you are (ESTE) gods" (J 10,34)
jus frijai sijuş "you will be (ESESQE) free" (J 8,36)
wai izwis, jus sadans nu, unte gredagai wairşiş (PEINASETE) Good
News Bible: "How terrible for you who are full now; you will go
hungry!" (i.e. "be hungry"); "Ve eder, som nu ären mätta, ty I
skolen hungra!" (L 6,25).


The durative future can be expressed with one of three auxiliary
verbs: HABAN, DUGINNAN or SKULAN.  Examples of these composite
futures are rare (7 with ´haban´; 2 with ´duginnan´; not sure about
´skulan´ -- SKULAN is harder to count because it's more common and
has other auxiliary uses).  They are used where a contrast is made
between present and future: tauja jah taujan haba "I do and will
continue to do" (2Cor 11,12).  Or they are used to express future in
past: ni kunnandans, hvaşar skuldedi maiza "not knowing which was to
be the greater" (Sk 3,4 - Marchand's translation); şanei skuldedun
niman şai galaubjandans du imma "which those believing in him would
receive" (J 7,39); sa auk habaida ina galewjan "for he would betray
him", "for he was going to betray him" (J 6,71).  As can be seen
from these last two examples, the future in the past with HABAN and
SKULAN can also be used with a perfective infinitive.  All examples
of the simple future with HABAN seem to me to be durative though.
There are no examples of DUGINNAN being used for future-in-the-
past.  gaunon jah gretan duginniş "you will mourn (TENQHSETE) and
weep (KLAUSETE)" (L 6,25); in şamma fagino akei jah faginon
duginna "I rejoice (XAIRW) in that and will go on rejoicing
(XARHSOMAI)" (Php 1,18).  `duginnan' can also mean "to begin to".

hva skuli şata barn wairşan TI ARA TO PAIDION TOUTO ESTAI, King
James Bible "what manner of child shall this be?" (L 1,66)

Here the Greek future ESTAI "will be" is translated with two Gothic
verbs: skuli...wairşan.  On other occasions too, the present
subjunctive indicates a durative future.  Streitberg has three
examples.  Here are two I've found where the subjunctive is used
with uncompounded verbs for what seems to me like a perfective
future.  (If any speakers of Slavonic languages are reading this,
I'd be interested in your opinions...)

hva taujau TI POIHSW "what shall I do?" (L 16,3)
niu drigkau şana MH PIW AUTO "am I not to drink that?" (J 18,11)

An inchoative future ([gradually] becoming) can be expressed with
WAIRŞAN + present participle: jus saurgandans wairşiş ´UMEIS
LUPHQHSESQE "you will become sorrowful" (J 16,22; jah stairnons
himinis wairşand driusandeins KAI ´OI ASTERES ESONTAI EK OURANOU
PIPONTES "and the stars will start falling out of the sky" (Mk
13,25).  The latter example follows the Greek closely, but note the
choice of verb, WAIRŞAN rather than WISAN.  The construction is also
found in Old and Middle High German (Priebsch & Collinson "The
German Language" 328), and gave rise ultimately to the modern German
future with ´werden´ + infinitive.


New Testament Greek has the following past tenses: aorist (did);
imperfect (was doing); perfect (has done); pluperfect (had done).
Gothic usually translates these in the following ways:

aorist (did) – perfective preterite (gaswalt "died").

imperfect (was doing) – durative preterite (swalt "was dying").

perfect (has done) – often with present (atist asans "harvest time
is here"); occasionally with perfective preterite (qam hveila "the
time has come"; nahts framis galaiş "night is far spent", "it has
got towards the end of the night").  Sometimes Greek has an aorist
where English would use the perfect: jus gatawideduş ita du filigrja
waidedjane "you have made (EPOIHSATE) it into a den of criminals" –
in this instance, at least, Gothic uses the perfective preterite.

pluperfect (had done) – The formal pluperfect is rare in New
Testament Greek and often expressed in other ways.  Here's an
example where a Gothic perfective preterite translates a Greek
aorist: bişeh şan gaandida rodjands "when he had finished
speaking".  Here a Gothic durative preterite translates a Greek
imperfect: saei was blinds "the man who had been blind".  From this
it would appear that Gothic uses the preterite, durative or
imperfective depending on the sense required.

(Incidentally, going back to your example, there is SAHV
meaning "has seen" at Col 2,18 and 1Tim 6,16; and SAHV = "saw" J
18,26.  Can't see an example of SAHV = "had seen", but I'm sure it's
possible.  GASAHV appears with both meanings too, "saw", "has
seen".)  The perfective prefix, I think emphasises "perception", the
moment of seeing, or of coming to notice, or the result of seeing.

The "absolute" is often equivalent to an English perfect or
pluperfect.  In Greek this uses the genitive, in Gothic the dative
case.  It is formed with the present or past participle.  Sometimes
the preposition AT comes before the verb.  dalaş şan atgaggandin
imma af fairgunja "when he had come down from the mountain"; at Jesu
ufdaupidamma "when Jesus had been baptised"; at andanahtja şan
waurşanamma "when evening had come"; jabai auk diabulau...nih
nauşjandin ak uslutondin mannan "for if the devil had been not
compelling but deceiving man".  As far as I can see, the present
participle doesn't make any time distinction from the past
participle in the absolute.  But the same construction, with the
present participle, is also used to express an ongoing action or
situation: at bajoşum daupjandam "with both of them (at that time)
baptising"; at urrinnandin sunnin "at the rising of the sun".  It is
a genuine Germanic construction as can be seen from Old Norse prases
like: at áliğnum vetri "towards the end of winter", "when winter was
far spent"; at liğnum vetri "when winter had passed", "at the end of
winter".

NT Greek sometimes uses a "narrative present" to describe past
events.  This is common in Old Norse sagas and in colloquial Modern
English.  But Gothic generally translates the Greek narrative
present with the preterite.  Examples from Streitberg: Mk 8,4; Mk
1,12; Mk 1,21.

In NT Greek, the tense in reported (indirect) speech matches the
original statement, rather than that of the verb "say".  So "they
said that they will come" (so long as the coming is in the speaker's
future, even if the coming is in our past), rather than "they said
that they would come".  Gothic follows the Greek practice.

Unreal conditions, as mentioned above, are expressed with the
preterite subjunctive, whether they refer to past present or future;
no time distinction is made: jabai allis Moses galaubidedi, ga-şau-
laubidedeiş mis "for if you had believed Moses, you would have
believed me."

Present participles are very common in the Gothic bible, but almost
always correspond to Greek participles.  So it's unclear to what
extent this was a genuine feature of Gothic syntax.  See J 16,22 for
an example of a present participle construction not in the
original.  Let me know if you find others.  It is generally assumed
that present participles would have been less prelevant in natural
Gothic, since this is the case in the other early Germanic
languages.  But it´s hard to be sure.  NT Greek could express more
tenses with participles than either Gothic or English, leading to
potential confusion when these languages try to imitate Greek too
closely.  But still, a present participle + WISAN may well have been
used in some circumstances; there are parallels in Old English,
etc.  But bear in mind that this was (a) much rarer in OE than in
Modern English, though most frequent in translations from Latin, and
(b) not restricted to the same contexts as the modern English
progressive, e.g. seo ea biğ flowende ofer eal Ægypta land,
literally "that river is flowing ofer all the Egyptians' land" – but
we would now say "floods"
[http://helmer.aksis.uib.no/icame/ij18/elsness.pdf ].  This paper
says it can be used for any durative action.  The following paper
[www.mab.ms/doc/reanalysis.pdf ] is hard for me to understand in
many places, but has some stuff relevant to the present question in
Chapter 5.  See especially 5.1.2 and 5.1.4 for some useful quotes.

"...when such a periphrasis occurs in early Germanic languages
(including, of course, Old English) its source, Mossé points out,
can be traced directly to Greek or Latin influence. [...]  Mossé
attributes the overwhelming development of this form to the demise
of the aspectual system of the preverbs which he argues were used to
mark, in OE, perfective events."

If so, we might assume that present participle + WISAN constructions
were are in natural Gothic, since the system of aspectual preverbs
is still thriving there.  Here is a quote from Mitchell concerning
Old English, cited in 5.1.4.

"First, the verbs which on Nickel's evidence display periphrastic
forms tend to be `imperfective' (...) and to belong to certain
semantic groups—verbs of rest, e.g. wunian; of movement, e.g. faran;
of speaking, e.g. cweşan; and of physical action, e.g. feohtan; and
verbs which express a state or a change of state, e.g. libban and
growan, or a mood, e.g. sorgian. (...) Second, they tend to be
intransitive (...) The periphrases are more often found in the third
person singular or plural (...) They are often accompanied by
temporal, local, or modal, adverb modifiers (Mitchell, Bruce. 1985.
Old English Syntax (vol. I). Oxford: Clarendon Press.  §691)."

It would be interesting to know how much these tendencies are
reflected in other old Germanic languages.  Álvarez says that the
predicate use of the present participle appears in Old Norse in
learned style, "en estilo culto" with VERA and VERĞA (Pilar
Fernández Álvarez, Antiguo Islandés: Historia y lengua).  "Learned"
might imply Latin influence, though Álvarez doesn't make that
explicit.  As in Old English, the construction is rarer than the
corresponding Modern English progressive, and used in contexts where
it would not appear in Modern English.  Hallfreğr var eggjandi at
viğ honum væri tekit "H. was urging them to take him on [as a
guide]" (Hallfreğar saga vandræğaskálds (Möğruvallabók)).   ...ok
eggjandi vil ek şess vera at... "...and I hope that..." (Hálfdanar
saga Eysteinssonar, Pálsson & Edwards translation in Seven Viking
Romances).  ok fór Helga til bús meğ honum ok varğ honum lítt
unnandi "Helga went there to live with him, but had little feeling
for him" – i.e. "not much affection affection" (Gunnlaugs saga
ormstungu, Gwyn Jones´s translation in Eirik the Red and Other
Icelandic Sagas).  It´s not that she once loved this man Şorkell and
then loses affection for him; rather, she never had much in the
first place, and that doesn't change.

So, to know how exactly it worked in Gothic, we'd need some more
evidence in the form of examples that differ from the Greek.
Streitberg just says that the present participle with WISAN serves
to express durative action, following the model of the Greek
(Gotische Syntax 323).  Until we have more examples or some handy
references, we might have to leave that for now.

Another thing to consider, when thinking about Gothic tenses, is how
WISAN and WAIRŞAN are used to express the preterite passive.
Streitberg gives statistics for which is chosen to translate which
Greek tense.  There are strong tendencies, but no absolute one-to-
one correspondence.  Another time, perhaps...

Llama Nom

___________________________________________________________

Notes

[1]  What Streitberg calls "Aktionsart" (Wilhelm
Streitberg "Gotische Syntax").  Actually sometimes linguists make a
distinction in English between "aspect" and "aktionsart".  When such
a distinction is made, the latter is a broader term, I think,
while "aspect" would be restricted to the perfective-imperfective
duality as found in the Slavonic tongues.  But, rightly or wrongly,
I'm just using "aspect" here for Streitberg's "Aktionsart", since it
is this duality that forms the main part of his description.  For
more on the history of these terms, and references to Streitberg's
critics, see Anna Mlynarczyk, "Aspectual Pairing in Polish", LOT
Dissertation Series 87, chapter 2 [
http://www.lotpublications.nl/index3.html ], [
http://www.lotpublications.nl/publish/articles/000622/bookpart.pdf ].
   The objection has been made that there are too many exceptions to
Streitberg´s rules.  Nevertheless, I think there must be something
in the idea, even if it isn´t such a strict dichotomy in Gothic as
in Slavonic.

[2]  Streitberg also identifies "inchoative", gradually becoming,
slowly entering into a state of being.  This is expressed, he says,
by the Class 4 weak verbs.  He also suggests that an "iterative"
meaning (repeated action) can be expressed by the present of
perfective verbs when used with a present rather than the (more
usual?) future meaning.

[3]  According to Streitberg, the association of future with
perfective present is not as strict as in the Slavonic languages
because Gothic lacks a formal iterative.

[4]  With certain verbs however, GA- means "together"; to this may
be added a second perfectivising GA-, thus GAGAHAFTJAN, GAGAWAIRŞJAN.

[5]  Streitberg regarded examples of WAIRŞA for Greek ESOMAI "I will
be" as only possible where the Greek future can be understood as
perfect (wenn das griechische Futurum perfektiv aufgefasst werden
kann (Gotische Syntax 302.b)).  If so, I suppose `gredagai wairşiş'
would have to be interpreted as, say, "you will become hungry",
rather than either "you will be hungry", "you will go hungry",
or "you will hunger".  And likewise the other examples of WAIRŞAN
here.  But clearly they haven't always been interpreted thus by
translators from the Greek to these various languages.

Here I'm back again. :-)

>see J 6,52; J 8,15; Mt 6,22; Col2,19; R 7,15; R 7,25; R 8,1-10, and
so
>on. This seems to be the normal way. (All but the first of these
>examples are abstract).

Some are already made definite by a possessive pronoun or by 'alls',
but yes, it seems to be clear that the article/demonstrative is
usually omitted in such cases. I've also stumbled upon _witôş_
'law',
it's abstract and general most of the time and usually without
article/demonstrative as well.
'World' being a special case sounds logical, maybe it's a fixed
construction or a kind of fortification..


Third stanza:

Şáu fônu, sáiwala qiwa,
Or fire, [a] spirit [which is] quick,

Şaírh ita diwand waíhteis
By it die the things,

Akei rûna libáináis raíhtis,
Yet [a] secret [of] life indeed,

Gudane baírhta giba?
[Of] the gods [a] bright gift?


Is it possible to put an adjective after the noun? (Streitenberg's
syntax part isn't online, hmpf.. I looked up in Wright's grammar (pp.
182-194) but couldn't find anything concerning this point..) And if
not, what about a relative clause with omission of the copula, so:
_sáiwala soei qiwa [ist]_?

I'm not sure whether _raíhtis_ can be used this way.. Streitenberg
translates it with German 'nämlich, doch, etwa' which cannot be
used
in the meaning of English 'indeed', but my guide was Mat.9:37:
_asans
raihtis managa_ 'the harvest truly is plenteous' (seems by the way to
show the omission of 'to be'). In the German Bible translation it is
just 'the harvest is plenteous' (die Ernte ist gross).

Hello,

I have a question: Which contemporary Gothic words (in sense of:
referring to the 4th/5th century) are known? And which reconstrutions
have been undertaken, if at all?
What I have in mind are:

-geographical names:
towns: Marcianopolis, Adrianopolis, Constantinopolis, Ravenna, Rome
etc.
regions: Thrace, Greece, Italy, Roman Empire (western/eastern) etc.
waters: Danube, Black Sea etc.

-peoples:
Heruli, Huns, Alans, Romans etc.
I have only found the attested _Kreks_ 'Greek' (Gal.2:3)

-personal names:
the emperors Valens and Gratian, Lupicinus (governor of Thrace at the
time the Goths were settled there) etc.

--- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "Roman Rausch" <aranwe@m...> wrote:

> I'm not sure whether _raíhtis_ can be used this way.. Streitenberg
> translates it with German 'nämlich, doch, etwa' which cannot be
> used
> in the meaning of English 'indeed', but my guide was Mat.9:37:
> _asans
> raihtis managa_ 'the harvest truly is plenteous' (seems by the way
to
> show the omission of 'to be'). In the German Bible translation it is
> just 'the harvest is plenteous' (die Ernte ist gross).


In Mt 9,37, the construction RAIHTIS...IŞ translates the Greek
MEN...DE.  In spite of the appearance of "truly" in the old Authorised
Edition (King James Bible), I don't think present-day English would
have any equivalent to RAIHTIS here.  The more modern-sounding Good
News Bible, has simply "the harvest is large, but there are few
workers to gather it in."  The function of RAIHTIS here is just to
signal that this is the first part of a dichotome, a contrasting
pair.  I suppose the real meaning is "on the one hand (auf der eine
Seite)..., while/but/and on the other (auf der anderen Seite) -- but
it's used much more than this would be in English, and presumably a
lot less emphatic.  I guess you could translate this particular
instance "WHILE the harvest is large, the labourers are few," in which
case "while" alone translates the combination MEN...DE = RAIHTIS...IŞ.

2 Tim 1,10 gatairandins raihtis dauşau, iş galiuhtjandins
libain "destroying death, but illuminating life"; Phil 1,15 sumai
raihtis...sumai şan "some...but others" TINES MEN...TINES DE.  A
contrast is implied, but not necessarily a contradiction.  The Latin
equivalent is QUIDEM...AUTEM.  In Gothic, the second part may be
introduced with JAH or IŞ or AŞŞAN in first position, or ŞAN in second
position.


However, RAIHTIS has a number of other uses, some of which I think
might correspond English "indeed" and some to the German particles you
mention.  Here's a scheme I made a while ago.


EMPHATIC
----1. actually
----2. X-self(-selves)
----3. indeed
EXPLANITORY / SPECIFIC
----4. you see
----5. namely
----6. for instance
SPECIFIC / CONTRASTING
----7. on the one hand
----8. rather
CONTRADICTORY
----9. (contradicting ibai-question) yes actually = NHG doch!


But I won't go through it all just now, as I'm not entirely happy with
it.  It can probably be rearranged more logically and accurately.  And
I'd really like to understand these particles better.  But here's a
sample:


1) "actually, in fact"

ni fraşjandans şatei sa RAIHTIS Fareisaius was (Sk 8,9)

without comprehending that he was indeed a Pharisee (Marchand)
they reasoned without thinking that he was namely a Pharisee (Bennett)
ohne zu beachten, dass er gerade ein Pharisäer war (Dietrich)
nicht bedenkend, dass er eben ein Pharisäer war (Kock)
utan att beakta att han just var en fareisalus (Ohlmarks)
så betänkte de icke, att just han var en Farisé (Lundgren)
bevroedden zij niet, dat deze, die wel degelijk een Farizeeër was (van
der Waals)

[ http://www.gotica.de/ ]

Any native speakers of these languages like to comment?
Marchand's "indeed" makes sense in the context and sounds right.  I
wouldn't use "namely" here; it sounds a bit odd to me, but maybe it's
equivalent to the more colloquial "actually", which I think would
work.  The idea is that he certainly was a Pharisee, in spite of what
they thought or suggested to the contrary.  A US colloqualism: "He was
TOO a Pharisee!"



2) "[indeed] -self, -selves" (with names)

silba raihtis Daweid qişiş "David himself called him lord" - Mk 12,37
= Gk autos Daueid legei = Lat. ipse ergo David.  Note that the Gothic
introduces an extra word with no equivalent in the Greek.

Moses auk raihtis qaş "for Moses himself said" - Mk 7,0 = Gk Mwushs
gar eipen = Lat. enim.

unte wildedum qiman at izwis, ik raihtis Pawlus...  "For we wanted to
return to you.  In fact I Paul..." or "indeed, I myself..." - 1 Thess
2,18 = Gk egw men Paulos = Lat. ego quidem Paulus.

...................................................



4) "you see", introducting an explanation

"because [you see]", "after all", colloquial "coz", archaic "for" = Gk
gar (supplying a reason or example), but sometimes no Gk equivalent.
Basically a causal conjunction, I suppose, but sometimes the causal
sense is vague; the thing being explained may just be the fact that
the speaker made their last statement, or something implied in the
last thing they said.  In this sense RAIHTIS seems to overlap with AUK
and ALLIS which are also each used to translate Gk gar.  Maybe there
is a subtle difference, but I haven't figured it out yet.  All
suggestions welcome!  RAIHTIS and ALLIS both seem to have their own
more specific spheres set of meanings besides this, while the very
frequent AUK seems to be almost entirely confined to this sense.

bihve kunnum thata? ik raihtis im sineigs "how shall I know if this is
so?  I am an old man, you see" - L 1,8 = egw gar eimi presbuths
(Having been told startling news by the angel, Zacharias expresses
disbelief, then explains the reason for his doubt).

sumai raihtis ize fairraşro qemun "[because, after all] some of them
have come a long way." - Mk 8,3 = Gk kai tines autwn apo makroqen
eisin = Lat. quidam enim ex eis.  (There is no preceding 'jah', = Gk
kai, in the Gothic).

unte raihtis L 1,1 (Gk epeidhper "since in fact / really / indeed".
Or maybe equivalent in sense to 4. "you see" as added to an
explanation?)  Quote from an online source: "Forasmuch as
(epeidhper).  Here alone in the N.T., though common in literary Attic.
Appears in the papyri. A triple compound (epei = since, dh =
admittedly true, per = intensive particle to emphasize importance)."
[ http://www.searchgodsword.org/com/rwp/print.cgi?
book=lu&chapter=001&verse=001 ].  This is interesting, as UNTE gives
the sense of causation "since, because", so perhaps RAIHTIS here =
dh "admittedly true".  This makes me think of English phrases seeking
agreement like "isn't it" or "you know", but there are other examples
where I think RAIHTIS has a causal sense, but doesn't imply that the
information is already known and admitted.

..................................................


8) in combination: şau raihtis, "RATHER [than]"

şau raihtis jains "rather than the other" or "as opposed to the other
one" - Lk 18,14 = Gk par' ekeinon = Lat. ab illo.




9) "YES ACTUALLY", "on the contrary" (contradicting a negative
question with ibai, which expects a negative answer) = NHG doch!, Fr
si!, Icelandic jú!

akei qişa: ibai ni hausidedun? raihtis: und alla airşa galaiş drunjus
ize 'but I say: they didn't hear, did they? Of course they did: The
sound of their voice went out to all the world' - R 10,18 (=Gk. menoun
ge).


Well, that's something to be going on with...

Llama Nom

Rome is attested: RUMA (dat. Rumai, 2 Tim 1,18; and at the end of Gal
6).  St. Paul's letter to the Romans ends DU RUMONIM "to the Romans".
The Roman Emperor Augustus appears as AGUSTUS (L 2,1 dat. fram kaisara
Agustau).  The dropping of the -u- may be due to the name having been
borrowed from Popular Latin.  For a complete list of names recorded in
the Gothic Bible, including many Greek placenames, see Koebler's
Gotisches Woerterbuch, Anhang 2 "biblisch-gotischen Namen" [
http://www.koeblergerhard.de/gotwbhin.html ].  If you want to try your
hand at reconstructions, you might want to look at this essay on the
declension of foreign names in Gothic [
http://www.nthuleen.com/papers/755gothpaper.html ].

Llama Nom

Does Gothic follow the Greek or Latin rules of grammar? In Classical
Latin the verb at times has its position at the end of the sentence
according to Wheelock.
Le
----- Original Message -----
From: "Roman Rausch" <aranwe@...>
To: <gothic-l@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, August 11, 2005 9:46 AM
Subject: [gothic-l] Re: a Gothic poem (verse 3)--syntax, word usage


Here I'm back again. :-)

>see J 6,52; J 8,15; Mt 6,22; Col2,19; R 7,15; R 7,25; R 8,1-10, and
so
>on. This seems to be the normal way. (All but the first of these
>examples are abstract).

Some are already made definite by a possessive pronoun or by 'alls',
but yes, it seems to be clear that the article/demonstrative is
usually omitted in such cases. I've also stumbled upon _witôş_
'law',
it's abstract and general most of the time and usually without
article/demonstrative as well.
'World' being a special case sounds logical, maybe it's a fixed
construction or a kind of fortification..


Third stanza:

Şáu fônu, sáiwala qiwa,
Or fire, [a] spirit [which is] quick,

Şaírh ita diwand waíhteis
By it die the things,

Akei rûna libáináis raíhtis,
Yet [a] secret [of] life indeed,

Gudane baírhta giba?
[Of] the gods [a] bright gift?


Is it possible to put an adjective after the noun? (Streitenberg's
syntax part isn't online, hmpf.. I looked up in Wright's grammar (pp.
182-194) but couldn't find anything concerning this point..) And if
not, what about a relative clause with omission of the copula, so:
_sáiwala soei qiwa [ist]_?

I'm not sure whether _raíhtis_ can be used this way.. Streitenberg
translates it with German 'nämlich, doch, etwa' which cannot be
used
in the meaning of English 'indeed', but my guide was Mat.9:37:
_asans
raihtis managa_ 'the harvest truly is plenteous' (seems by the way to
show the omission of 'to be'). In the German Bible translation it is
just 'the harvest is plenteous' (die Ernte ist gross).









You are a member of the Gothic-L list.  To unsubscribe, send a blank email
to <gothic-l-unsubscribe@egroups.com>.
Yahoo! Groups Links

Perhaps to be is an understood word. So it is omitted.
Le
----- Original Message -----
From: "Roman Rausch" <aranwe@...>
To: <gothic-l@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, August 11, 2005 9:46 AM
Subject: [gothic-l] Re: a Gothic poem (verse 3)--syntax, word usage


Here I'm back again. :-)

>see J 6,52; J 8,15; Mt 6,22; Col2,19; R 7,15; R 7,25; R 8,1-10, and
so
>on. This seems to be the normal way. (All but the first of these
>examples are abstract).

Some are already made definite by a possessive pronoun or by 'alls',
but yes, it seems to be clear that the article/demonstrative is
usually omitted in such cases. I've also stumbled upon _witôş_
'law',
it's abstract and general most of the time and usually without
article/demonstrative as well.
'World' being a special case sounds logical, maybe it's a fixed
construction or a kind of fortification..


Third stanza:

Şáu fônu, sáiwala qiwa,
Or fire, [a] spirit [which is] quick,

Şaírh ita diwand waíhteis
By it die the things,

Akei rûna libáináis raíhtis,
Yet [a] secret [of] life indeed,

Gudane baírhta giba?
[Of] the gods [a] bright gift?


Is it possible to put an adjective after the noun? (Streitenberg's
syntax part isn't online, hmpf.. I looked up in Wright's grammar (pp.
182-194) but couldn't find anything concerning this point..) And if
not, what about a relative clause with omission of the copula, so:
_sáiwala soei qiwa [ist]_?

I'm not sure whether _raíhtis_ can be used this way.. Streitenberg
translates it with German 'nämlich, doch, etwa' which cannot be
used
in the meaning of English 'indeed', but my guide was Mat.9:37:
_asans
raihtis managa_ 'the harvest truly is plenteous' (seems by the way to
show the omission of 'to be'). In the German Bible translation it is
just 'the harvest is plenteous' (die Ernte ist gross).









You are a member of the Gothic-L list.  To unsubscribe, send a blank email
to <gothic-l-unsubscribe@egroups.com>.
Yahoo! Groups Links

Is there any evidence for a Gothic cognate to the Anglo-saxon wordthat's a
root of modern "Welsh"?
Continental Germanic dialects as well as A-S use variants on this to
describe the inhabitants of the Roman Empire (my memory says that there
are attestations for "Welshland" as a name for the mpire). Thus, Wales,
Wallachia, Vlachs, as well as many local placenames.

Tom


llama_nom wrote:
>
>  Rome is attested: RUMA (dat. Rumai, 2 Tim 1,18; and at the end of Gal
>  6).  St. Paul's letter to the Romans ends DU RUMONIM "to the
> Romans".
>  The Roman Emperor Augustus appears as AGUSTUS (L 2,1 dat. fram kaisara
>  Agustau).  The dropping of the -u- may be due to the name having been
>  borrowed from Popular Latin.  For a complete list of names recorded in
>  the Gothic Bible, including many Greek placenames, see Koebler's
>  Gotisches Woerterbuch, Anhang 2 "biblisch-gotischen Namen" [
>  http://www.koeblergerhard.de/gotwbhin.html ].  If you want to try your
>  hand at reconstructions, you might want to look at this essay on the
>  declension of foreign names in Gothic [
>  http://www.nthuleen.com/papers/755gothpaper.html ].
>
>  Llama Nom
>
>

saiwala is the spirit or soul It resembles the OE word sawol soul? Is GAIST
spirit.
Le.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Roman Rausch" <aranwe@...>
To: <gothic-l@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, August 11, 2005 9:46 AM
Subject: [gothic-l] Re: a Gothic poem (verse 3)--syntax, word usage


Here I'm back again. :-)

>see J 6,52; J 8,15; Mt 6,22; Col2,19; R 7,15; R 7,25; R 8,1-10, and
so
>on. This seems to be the normal way. (All but the first of these
>examples are abstract).

Some are already made definite by a possessive pronoun or by 'alls',
but yes, it seems to be clear that the article/demonstrative is
usually omitted in such cases. I've also stumbled upon _witôş_
'law',
it's abstract and general most of the time and usually without
article/demonstrative as well.
'World' being a special case sounds logical, maybe it's a fixed
construction or a kind of fortification..


Third stanza:

Şáu fônu, sáiwala qiwa,
Or fire, [a] spirit [which is] quick,

Şaírh ita diwand waíhteis
By it die the things,

Akei rûna libáináis raíhtis,
Yet [a] secret [of] life indeed,

Gudane baírhta giba?
[Of] the gods [a] bright gift?


Is it possible to put an adjective after the noun? (Streitenberg's
syntax part isn't online, hmpf.. I looked up in Wright's grammar (pp.
182-194) but couldn't find anything concerning this point..) And if
not, what about a relative clause with omission of the copula, so:
_sáiwala soei qiwa [ist]_?

I'm not sure whether _raíhtis_ can be used this way.. Streitenberg
translates it with German 'nämlich, doch, etwa' which cannot be
used
in the meaning of English 'indeed', but my guide was Mat.9:37:
_asans
raihtis managa_ 'the harvest truly is plenteous' (seems by the way to
show the omission of 'to be'). In the German Bible translation it is
just 'the harvest is plenteous' (die Ernte ist gross).









You are a member of the Gothic-L list.  To unsubscribe, send a blank email
to <gothic-l-unsubscribe@egroups.com>.
Yahoo! Groups Links

Köbler:

"walh-s, got., Adj. (a): nhd. welsch, ausländisch; ne. foreign; Vw.:
s. *wala (1); Q.: PN, Qualatrûdi, HhGEW 133; E.: s. germ. *walahaz,
M., Kelte, Welscher, Fremder."

I suppose a substantivized Walhaland or Walhane Land would be a more
Gothic construction than Walhiskaland or something along those lines.


--- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, macmaster@r... wrote:
>
> Is there any evidence for a Gothic cognate to the Anglo-saxon
wordthat's a
> root of modern "Welsh"?
> Continental Germanic dialects as well as A-S use variants on this to
> describe the inhabitants of the Roman Empire (my memory says that there
> are attestations for "Welshland" as a name for the mpire). Thus, Wales,
> Wallachia, Vlachs, as well as many local placenames.
>
> Tom
>
>
> llama_nom wrote:
> >
> >  Rome is attested: RUMA (dat. Rumai, 2 Tim 1,18; and at the end of Gal
> >  6).  St. Paul's letter to the Romans ends DU RUMONIM "to the
> > Romans".
> >  The Roman Emperor Augustus appears as AGUSTUS (L 2,1 dat. fram
kaisara
> >  Agustau).  The dropping of the -u- may be due to the name having been
> >  borrowed from Popular Latin.  For a complete list of names
recorded in
> >  the Gothic Bible, including many Greek placenames, see Koebler's
> >  Gotisches Woerterbuch, Anhang 2 "biblisch-gotischen
Namen" [
> >  http://www.koeblergerhard.de/gotwbhin.html ].  If you want to try
your
> >  hand at reconstructions, you might want to look at this essay on the
> >  declension of foreign names in Gothic [
> >  http://www.nthuleen.com/papers/755gothpaper.html ].
> >
> >  Llama Nom
> >
> >

--- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "thiudans" <thiudans@y...> wrote:
> Köbler:
>
> "walh-s, got., Adj. (a): nhd. welsch, ausländisch; ne. foreign; Vw.:
> s. *wala (1); Q.: PN, Qualatrûdi, HhGEW 133; E.: s. germ. *walahaz,
> M., Kelte, Welscher, Fremder."
>
> I suppose a substantivized Walhaland or Walhane Land would be a more
> Gothic construction than Walhiskaland or something along those lines.


Other alternatives:

*Walhaland, cf. ON Valland
ana Walh(a)şiudai, cf. Go. ana Gutşiudai
ana Walham, cf. OE on Wealum, on Eastenglum, etc.

The last two are literally "among the Welsh/Gothic people", but
applied by extention to the place where they lived.

--- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "Roman Rausch" <aranwe@m...> wrote:

> Third stanza:
>
> Şáu fônu, sáiwala qiwa,
> Or fire, [a] spirit [which is] quick,
>
> Şaírh ita diwand waíhteis
> By it die the things,
>
> Akei rûna libáináis raíhtis,
> Yet [a] secret [of] life indeed,
>
> Gudane baírhta giba?
> [Of] the gods [a] bright gift?


You're getting better at this!  Only two grammar suggestions and a
semantic caution for you this time...  The genitive plural
of 'guş' "god" would be 'gude', a neuter a-stem, but takes masculine
attributes in singular when applied to the Christian god.  Perhaps
you were remembering *Gutane "of the Goths" (from the Pietroassa
inscription <gutani>)?  The other thing is that RAIHTIS, except when
it's contradicting a question that expects a negative answer,
typically occurs in "second position" in the sentence, either
literally after the first word, or after the first
significant/stressed group of words.  From the Skeireins:

at raihtis mann us missaleikom wistim ussatidamma,
us saiwalai raihtis jah leika

jah şata raihtis anasiunjo wato jah...

ufarşeihandei raihtis witodis hrainein, iş...

şatei sa raihtis Fareisaius was

du leitilamma mela raihtis bruks was ... iş...

In this last example, RAIHTIS seems to have strayed quite far into
the sentence, but in fact I think this still counts as "second
position", as 'du leitilamma mela' "for a little while" is all one
noun phrase.  My feeling is that if a Gothic speaker had to make any
slight pause while saying this, they'd be more likely to do so
directly after RAIHTIS than before.


>
> Is it possible to put an adjective after the noun? (Streitenberg's
> syntax part isn't online, hmpf..


Sadly not.  But it's available from Universitätsverlag Winter for
7.00 Euros [ https://www.innovativ-
media.de/inni/winter/deutsch/frame.htm ].  In fact they have a
number of Gothic titles:

Die gotische Bibel  Streitberg, Wilhelm
Gotische Syntax.  Streitberg, Wilhelm Stopp, Hugo
Gotische Texte.  Kienle, Richard von
Gotisches etymologisches Wörterbuch.  Holthausen, Ferdinand
Hispano-gotisches Namenbuch.  Piel, Joseph M Kremer, Dieter
Nominale Wortbildung der gotischen Sprache.  Casaretto, Antje





> I looked up in Wright's grammar (pp.
> 182-194) but couldn't find anything concerning this point..) And
if
> not, what about a relative clause with omission of the copula, so:
> _sáiwala soei qiwa [ist]_?



Seems fine to me.  Acceptable poetic license.  Though the omission
of the copula in the Bible is just in immitation of Greek, in all
the examples I've seen, 'apposition' is a device much used in Old
English poetry.  That last sentence was an example of it.  With
subordination instead of apposition, I could have said: "a device
which was much used..."  Sentences in OE poetry can be very long and
loose, with much paratactic incrementation, so I think what you've
done is quite in keeping with that.


I take it you mean "quick" in the archaic English sense of "living" -
- in which case, that's right.


Gothic AHMA "spirit", = Gk. PNEUMA, is the word used for a
disembodied and disembodyable consciousness.  But 'sailawa' may
still be appropriate to your poem: see what you think.

SAIWALA = Gk. PSUXH, in spite of its cognate "soul", often means
something more like "life".  When someone lays down their life (i.e.
sacrifices it) for lambs, or loses their life to gain the world,
this is the noun used.  'saiwala', PSUXH, is something that would be
destroyed if you died and went to hell (Mt 10,28), so it's
not "soul" in the sense of an immortal spirit that lives on after
death.  At Php 2,30, Paul praises Epaphroditus, saying that he had
no regard for his own life "ufarmunonds saiwalai seinai".  Clealy
he's not saying he had no regard for his 'soul' -- if anything, the
opposite.  In such instances, English bibles such as the King James
have "life".

Sometimes in the KJB, "soul" is used where Gothic has SAIWALA, Greek
PSUXH.  This is where it refers to the emotional part of a living
person's mind, e.g. Mk 12,30 us allai saiwalai şeinai "with all thy
soul", that is: with all your heart, willingly and full of
enthusiasm.  In this sense someone's 'saiwala' can be disturbed, or
pierced with a metaphorical sword of grief.  L 1,45 jah qaş Mariam:
mikileid saiwala meina fraujan, KJB "And Mary said, My soul doth
magnify the Lord"; Good News Bible "My heart praises the Lord".

In the Skeireins, 'saiwala' is the non-physical parts of a person,
contrasted with 'leik', and is translated "soul" by Marchand.  It is
also something that was prepared for baptism by John's teaching.
These instances might be grouped together with the "mind as seat of
the emotions" definition.  At Mk 12,33, 'saiwala' stands
alongside 'fraşi' and 'hairto': "to love him with all the heart, and
with all the understanding, and with all the soul, and with all the
strength".  But it's not clear just from this, to what extent these
are distinct entities or hyperbole.

Finally, SAIWALA and the adjective 'SAMA-SAIWALS' are used for
agreement/accord between people.  şatei standiş in ainamma ahmin,
ainai saiwalai samana arbaidjandans galaubeinai aiwaggeljons =
KJB: "that ye stand fast in one spirit, with one mind striving
together for the faith of the gospel" (Php 1,27).

Llama Nom

>For a complete list of names recorded in
>the Gothic Bible, including many Greek placenames, see Koebler's
>Gotisches Woerterbuch, Anhang 2 "biblisch-gotischen Namen" [
>http://www.koeblergerhard.de/gotwbhin.html ]. If you want to try your
>hand at reconstructions, you might want to look at this essay on the
>declension of foreign names in Gothic [http://www.nthuleen.com/
papers/755gothpaper.html].

Thanks, these links are indeed useful. So far two attempts:

Looking into the Norse 'Hervarar saga ok Heiğreks' (http://norse.
ulver.com/ontexts/forn/hervarar.html, maybe a millenium too late, but
still it's better than nothing) I've found there:
_Húnar_ 'huns' (obviously strong masc.)
Zoëga's Old Icelandic dictionary (http://www.northvegr.org/zoega/
index002.php) gives also the alternative form _Húnir_ (m.) as well as
the adjectives _húnskr, húnlenzkr, hınskr_.
According to Nancy Thuleen's quote from Gaebeler 'Völkernamen' usually
decline like masculine i-stems, sometimes mixed with u-stems. All this
taken together, would it be as simple as the following paradigma:
N *Huns       *Huneis
A *Hunu       *Hununs
G *Hunáus     *Hune
D *Hunáu      *Hunum
and the adjective _*hunsks/*hunisks_? Otherwise it seems that it could
be 'ordinary' masculine i-stem as well.

Zoëga also gives _Dun-á_ (f.) 'the Danube'. In the 'Hervarar saga'
this is however only attested in the compound _á Dúnheiği_. The first
element is, as it seems, _heiğr_ (fem.) 'heath, moor'. Maybe it's
attested somewhere else with a more clear hint on it's gender and
ending. I also wonder whether it's connected to _duna_ 'a rushing,
thundering noise'..
Again according to Nancy Thuleen's article foreign place names in
Gothic are a mix of feminine o- and i-stems. So (similar to the
declensions of _Achaia_ and _Ruma_):
N *Duna
A *Duna
G *Dunáis
D *Dunái
(Interestingly the Russian word for the Danube is 'Dunaj'.)

Nine daughters of Aegir.
I am trying to make some notes on Aegir, an old Vanir god on the way out to
become a giant. It is my idea that he was a Frey like god for the people on
the outer skerries, living fishing and hunting. They were hard pressed by
the farming people on the mainland. So Aegirs power base eroded and he
became more of a Giant. Well, this not the problem of this mail, but the
names of his nine daughters.

These are said to be Himingläva, Dufa, Bloughadda, Hefring, Unn, Rönn,
Bylgja, Båra and Kolga according to my edition of the Edda. Researchers say
that the daughters are waves of the sea and this is repeated ad infinitum
when they copy each other. I myself think that these daughters well could be
fishes. Kolga looks alike kolja, which is wonderful in fish pate. Hefring
seems to be an old form of Herring in both German and Anglo-Saxon. Unnr
means wave in Iceland, but .. Blaughadda sounds like a sort of "gädda" which
is a sweetwater fish, but with a great reputation. And so on!

Is there anyone on the list, which is familiar with the old words and can
help me to disprove in the spirit of sir Karl Popper?
Wilhelm

In the gothic language exist the word atta for 'father'. Comes it from
the Indo-european language? I know that in other germanic lanugage the
cognates of latin pater exist.
If someone has knowledge for it, please give me informtion.

The word 'fadar' also excists, but is used very little in the Gothic
manuscripts that have survived. Atta seems to have been more popular with
the scribes.


Cheers,
Terje

>From: "Hyejoon Yoon" <spesyoon@...>
>Reply-To: gothic-l@yahoogroups.com
>To: gothic-l@yahoogroups.com
>Subject: [gothic-l] for gothic words; atta
>Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2005 04:12:46 -0000
>
>In the gothic language exist the word atta for 'father'. Comes it from
>the Indo-european language? I know that in other germanic lanugage the
>cognates of latin pater exist.
>If someone has knowledge for it, please give me informtion.
>
>
>
>

_________________________________________________________________
MSN Messenger http://www.msn.no/messenger Den enkleste og raskeste måten å
holde kontakten på.

********************************************************************************\
********
Derivation of Gothic <atta> from Indo-European is a commonly accepted
explanation, which however, as it is typical for many Indo-European
explanations, explains nothing in fact.
Why other Germanic languages did not accept this stem?
Why this stem did not appear in Latin, Greek, Celtic, Baltic,
and other Indo-European language groups except for Russian <otec>
(along with the elder form <bat'a>, the latter seeming to be a cognate
to Indo-European <pater> and Germanic <fader>)?
In my opinion, Gothic <atta> together with Russian <otec>
should have been produced from Turkic <ata> with the same meaning father.
The Turkic origin could explain the limited influence upon solely those
most eastern Germanic and Slavonic languages.

Vladimir




-----Original Message-----
From: gothic-l@yahoogroups.com [mailto:gothic-l@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of
Hyejoon Yoon
Sent: Wednesday, August 17, 2005 8:13 AM
To: gothic-l@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [gothic-l] for gothic words; atta


In the gothic language exist the word atta for 'father'. Comes it from
the Indo-european language? I know that in other germanic lanugage the
cognates of latin pater exist.
If someone has knowledge for it, please give me informtion.







You are a member of the Gothic-L list.  To unsubscribe, send a blank email to
<gothic-l-unsubscribe@egroups.com>.
Yahoo! Groups Links

whaaaattttt???????

?????? ???????? <vegorov@...> wrote:
********************************************************************************\
********
Derivation of Gothic from Indo-European is a commonly accepted
explanation, which however, as it is typical for many Indo-European
explanations, explains nothing in fact.
Why other Germanic languages did not accept this stem?
Why this stem did not appear in Latin, Greek, Celtic, Baltic,
and other Indo-European language groups except for Russian
(along with the elder form , the latter seeming to be a cognate
to Indo-European
and Germanic )?
In my opinion, Gothic together with Russian
should have been produced from Turkic with the same meaning father.
The Turkic origin could explain the limited influence upon solely those
most eastern Germanic and Slavonic languages.

Vladimir




-----Original Message-----
From: gothic-l@yahoogroups.com [mailto:gothic-l@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of
Hyejoon Yoon
Sent: Wednesday, August 17, 2005 8:13 AM
To: gothic-l@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [gothic-l] for gothic words; atta


In the gothic language exist the word atta for 'father'. Comes it from
the Indo-european language? I know that in other germanic lanugage the
cognates of latin pater exist.
If someone has knowledge for it, please give me informtion.







You are a member of the Gothic-L list. To unsubscribe, send a blank email to .
Yahoo! Groups Links









You are a member of the Gothic-L list. To unsubscribe, send a blank email to .
Yahoo! Groups Links









[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

there is substance for the use of fader as i have read thru wulfilas
translations in the bible.....however i think russian translations are assimilar
to gothic just like other languages thru out the world....atta seems to be the
pro justification for father...i think fader was more concieved thru thr gothic
language in the baltic areas and times....oscar

?????? ???????? <vegorov@...> wrote:
********************************************************************************\
********
Derivation of Gothic from Indo-European is a commonly accepted
explanation, which however, as it is typical for many Indo-European
explanations, explains nothing in fact.
Why other Germanic languages did not accept this stem?
Why this stem did not appear in Latin, Greek, Celtic, Baltic,
and other Indo-European language groups except for Russian
(along with the elder form , the latter seeming to be a cognate
to Indo-European
and Germanic )?
In my opinion, Gothic together with Russian
should have been produced from Turkic with the same meaning father.
The Turkic origin could explain the limited influence upon solely those
most eastern Germanic and Slavonic languages.

Vladimir




-----Original Message-----
From: gothic-l@yahoogroups.com [mailto:gothic-l@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of
Hyejoon Yoon
Sent: Wednesday, August 17, 2005 8:13 AM
To: gothic-l@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [gothic-l] for gothic words; atta


In the gothic language exist the word atta for 'father'. Comes it from
the Indo-european language? I know that in other germanic lanugage the
cognates of latin pater exist.
If someone has knowledge for it, please give me informtion.







You are a member of the Gothic-L list. To unsubscribe, send a blank email to .
Yahoo! Groups Links









You are a member of the Gothic-L list. To unsubscribe, send a blank email to .
Yahoo! Groups Links









[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Regarding Danube, Thomas Czarnecki proposes the Gothic form *DONAWI
to account for Polish Dunaj.  "Die Bezeichnung dieses großen Flusses
ist zu den Slawen entweder durch die Vermittlung des Balkangotischen
(got. *Donâwi) gekommen oder sie ist eine einheimische Bildung, die
im Osten des Gebietes des Volkes entstanden ist." [ "Gotisches im
Wortschatz des Polischen"
http://www.fh.ug.gda.pl/images/Czarnecki.pdf ].

The /o:/ would be the normal development of /a:/ in Germanic,
supposing the name came from the Celtic source for Latin Danuvius,
Danubius.  The long vowel /a:/ is present in native Gothic words
where a nasal has been lost before /h/.  I don't think that applies
here.  Is a long vowel essential to the argument I wonder?  Or could
we imagine the end of the name was identical, or assimilated, to Go.
*awi "low lying marshy meadowland, surrounded or partly surrounded
by water" (cognate with Icelandic ey, German Au, English i(land) <
OE íeg)?

Huns as a mixed u/i-stem is an interesting idea, and might account
for the fluctuations between a- and i-stem in the other Germanic
languages.  Note though that in such names the nom. sg. end in -us
(e.g. Iudaius "Jew", Skwşus "Scythian", barbarus "'barbarian'").  On
the other hand, the names of peoples which follow this declension
may all be borrowed from Latin or Greek, and based partly on the
Latin second declension with nominative sg. -us, pl. -i.  But
wouldn't the Huns have been known to the Goths first?  Naturalised
names don't necessarily follow this declension, cf. Kreks "a Greek",
Krekos "Greeks".

It's been pointed out to me that many ancient tribal names follow
the i-stem declension, at least in the plural.  There was an
interesting discussion of this at the Theudiskon group [
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Theudiskon/?yguid=203859842 ].  See
posts 753-767.

"Hunnish" would presumably be uncontracted in Gothic: *Húnisks.

Hervarar saga also contains an ON name for the river Dniepr.  In one
version of the saga, 'á Danparstöğum' is the name of the district
where the Gothic citadel Árheimar lies.  In another, it is the name
of the citadel itself, and Árheimar the name of the district.  The
form 'á Danparstöğum' could mean "on the Banks of the Dniepr", or
the second element could be "steads", as in Atlakviğa, stanza 5 'ok
staği Danpar' (which has obvious echoes of Hlöğskviğa in Hervarar
saga).  Both staş-s "bank, shore, landing place" and stad-s "place"
are attested in Gothic.  Jordanes calls the river Danaper.

Other ancient names from Hervarar saga include Gotşjóğ (=Go.
Gutşiuda, attested in the Calender fragment), Húnaland "the land of
the Huns", Reiğgotaland "land of the (H)reiğ-Goths", and Harvağa
fjöll "the Carpathian mountains" (showing the influence of the
Germanic consonant shift, Grimm's Law), and of course
Myrkviğr "Mirkwood", which would give Gothic *Maírqiwidus.

Llama Nom





--- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "Roman Rausch" <aranwe@m...> wrote:
> >For a complete list of names recorded in
> >the Gothic Bible, including many Greek placenames, see Koebler's
> >Gotisches Woerterbuch, Anhang 2 "biblisch-gotischen Namen" [
> >http://www.koeblergerhard.de/gotwbhin.html ]. If you want to try
your
> >hand at reconstructions, you might want to look at this essay on
the
> >declension of foreign names in Gothic [http://www.nthuleen.com/
> papers/755gothpaper.html].
>
> Thanks, these links are indeed useful. So far two attempts:
>
> Looking into the Norse 'Hervarar saga ok Heiğreks' (http://norse.
> ulver.com/ontexts/forn/hervarar.html, maybe a millenium too late,
but
> still it's better than nothing) I've found there:
> _Húnar_ 'huns' (obviously strong masc.)
> Zoëga's Old Icelandic dictionary (http://www.northvegr.org/zoega/
> index002.php) gives also the alternative form _Húnir_ (m.) as well
as
> the adjectives _húnskr, húnlenzkr, hınskr_.
> According to Nancy Thuleen's quote from Gaebeler 'Völkernamen'
usually
> decline like masculine i-stems, sometimes mixed with u-stems. All
this
> taken together, would it be as simple as the following paradigma:
> N *Huns       *Huneis
> A *Hunu       *Hununs
> G *Hunáus     *Hune
> D *Hunáu      *Hunum
> and the adjective _*hunsks/*hunisks_? Otherwise it seems that it
could
> be 'ordinary' masculine i-stem as well.
>
> Zoëga also gives _Dun-á_ (f.) 'the Danube'. In the 'Hervarar saga'
> this is however only attested in the compound _á Dúnheiği_. The
first
> element is, as it seems, _heiğr_ (fem.) 'heath, moor'. Maybe it's
> attested somewhere else with a more clear hint on it's gender and
> ending. I also wonder whether it's connected to _duna_ 'a rushing,
> thundering noise'..
> Again according to Nancy Thuleen's article foreign place names in
> Gothic are a mix of feminine o- and i-stems. So (similar to the
> declensions of _Achaia_ and _Ruma_):
> N *Duna
> A *Duna
> G *Dunáis
> D *Dunái
> (Interestingly the Russian word for the Danube is 'Dunaj'.)

Some odd words for "father".  North Frisian has 'atj' (Amrum); 'ate'
(Hindelopian), according to Joseph Biddulph "A Grammar of North
Friesian".  Writing in Alemannic, the Swiss poet Johann Peter Hebel
used 'aetti' ("Die Vergänglichkeit...", The Penguin Book of German
Verse, p. 280-286).  Gothic 'fadar' is only attested once, at Gal
4,6.  But there also the derivatives 'fadrein' "parents" (neuter sg.
with plural meaning and masculine attributes) and 'fadreins'
(feminine) "lineage, ancestry".

Llama Nom

--- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "WILHELM OTTO" <wilhelm.otto@s...>
wrote:

>
> These are said to be Himingläva, Dufa, Bloughadda, Hefring, Unn,
Rönn,
> Bylgja, Båra and Kolga



Fishes, eh?  That´s an interesting idea.  Maybe some of them were.
Here´s the Icelandic spellings with as much as I know:


Himinglæva.  'himinn' "sky, heaven".  The second part, seemingly a
feminine derivative from the masculine noun 'glær' "shining" (a
poetic name for the sea, related to words for "glass" and "amber").
Rudold Simek suggests "the heaven-shining one" (Dictionary of
Northern Mythology, translated from German by Angela Hall).

Dúfa.  "dove"; also, a term of affection.  I wonder if this was in
origin a 'noa' name.  NOA is a polynesian word used by scholars to
mean an alternative name, a euphemism, used in place of the real
name for some dangerous entity, for example calling the fairies "the
Good People".  Norse fishermen also used euphemistic names for their
prey, maybe to placate the fish so that they wouldn't hide.  But
Simek groups this one as simply one more synonym for "wave".
Irish 'dubh' is "black, dark".  Don't know if that's relevent.

Blóğughadda.  "bloody-hair".  The masculine noun 'haddr' is a poetic
word for a lady's hair.  -a is a feminine ending, often used to make
nicknames.  Alternatively, 'hadda' is a chain to hang a pot on.  But
Simek goes with the more lyrical "bloody-hair" too.

Hefring.  "the rising one", according to Rudolf Simeck,
cf. 'hefja' "to raise up, to lift".

Uğr.  "wave", with assimilation of nn > ğ before r.  Cognate with
OE 'ış' "wave".

Hrönn.  "wave", also found in prose in set expressions.

Bylgja.  "wave", cf. English 'billow', a poetic word for "wave".

Bára.  "wave".

Kólga.  Poetic word for "wave".  Could it be related
to 'kólna' "become cold"?  So thinks Simek: "the cold one".


But as Simek notes "the names for Aegir's daughters appear to have
been indefinite..., and any synonym for wave could appear in poetry
as a name for one of Aegir's daughters."  Of course, none of this
disproves that some of them were used as the names of fishes too at
some time, although Old Norse poetry sees them rather as personified
waves as far as I know.

Llama Nom

Thank you very much for your very good answer. A bad answer puts an end to a
line of thought, a good answer opens new lines, new possibilities.
Now I will work with all that you have given me. These daughters seem to be
more complex then I thought. The old bards hid their truth in a box, in a
box and so on. It seems that I have not considered the Icelandic spelling. I
have seen the words through the old dialects I have a faint grasp of.

Fishes would fit into the Ägir picture as a vanir - a god of peace and
plenty, giving substance, but also taking his part in the form of lives. But
the Vanir are a crummy lot, hard to grasp with a simple structure.
Dufa, it spelled duva to day in Sweden. My associations go to the old
fertility goddess, whatever she is called. She is sometimes pictured with a
dove. The dove belongs to her like the swine, the cat, and the owl and so
on. But I see no fish here.
Hrönn might be a wave but is also the name of rowan or mountain ash. It has
a lot of magic properties and is a part of the celtic Ogham-tree alphabet.
You could for example use it to make whistles. Some use whistles to get
wind. (This according to Graves.)
Bylgjas. I did not see the connexion with bölja  (eng. billow)- a small
wave.
Bloughadda is difficult. I pronounce it "blågedda" and tried it on an old
chap selling fish in his young days. He thought he recognised it as a small
shark - but could not swear on it.

If all these were waves we could have a phenomena like the girl who had a
lot of names for snow. There are a lot of waves as well as snows.

I thank you. I have got a lot to ponder and if I may I will come back to
you.
I ask just for reference, as you have helped me, if your name is Llama Nom.
Yours Wilhelm Otto

Hello all,

I read the study „Stamm und Reich der frühen Thüringer nach den
Schriftquellen" (i.e. Folk/tribe and realm of the early Thuringians
according to historical sources) by Dr. Heike Grahn-Hoek,  in
Zeitschrift des Vereins für Thüringische Geschichte, Vol. 56 (2002).
The study comprises 87 pages in small print. It is extremely well
sourced and argued to the highest academic standards. As indicated by
the title, the author relies exclusively on historical sources and in
fact explicitly excludes archaeological evidence to avoid circular
arguments. As far as I can see, her study was well received by other
historians (e.g. H. Castritius in RGA).

The argument of key interest in my view centres on the origin of the
Thuringians. The author explains that the most common theory suggests
that the name was derived from an older tribal name Hermun-d u r e n.
However, she adds that this explanation has always been doubted by
linguists. Thus, the author re-examines the various name forms
provided in the earliest sources. Based on Malchus a Greek source of
the 5th cent. who provided the Greek form The-ou-r-ingoi (in Latin
The-u-r-ingi)  she argues that this name may be derived from The-r-u-
ingi the name of the Gothic Tervingi through a simple switch of ou/u
and r. She states that there are other examples in antique sources
where such an `u - r switch' occurred.

The author states that the time frame for the emergence of
Theuringoi/Thuringians and the disappearance of Theruingi/Tervingi
around 400 AD matches perfectly. The Theuringi are first mentioned in
400AD (Vegetius), but the source implies that at this time they were
already very well known throughout the empire. Thus, the
identification of Theuringi with Theruingi would fill a gap in the
sources.

Next, the author moves to the main part of her examination, the study
of historical sources in order to see whether a link between
Theuringi/Thuringians and Theruingi/Tervingians can be postulated. In
shortest possible terms, she takes the events surrounding Athanaric's
Tervingi as the starting point. Faced with the Hunnic onslaught, in
the 370s the Tervingi were beset by a crisis with a pro-Roman, pro-
Christian faction led by Fritigern which sought settlements within
the Roman empire and a pagan anti-Roman faction led by the Athanaric.
Athanaric had at one stage vowed never to set food on Roman soil.
Yet, for whatever reason he was later compelled to seek refuge with a
small following in Constantinopel. His part of the Tervingi was taken
over by `proximorum factione' (ie. relatives), who according to
Marcellinus Comes sought refuge "far away in lands (domicilium
remotum) unknown to the Huns". The author's argumentation here is
extremely detailed and suggest that these Tervingi were located
further north than often believed at that time.

Next, the author discusses the campaign of Radagaisus in 405/06. She
explains that his attribution to Greutungi (Ostrogoths) or Tervingi
(Visigoths) is uncertain. Since he is described as a pagan in
contrast to the Christian Tervingi under Alaric some scholars argue
that he must have been a Greutungian Goths. However, the sources call
him simply a rex (basileus) Gothorum, i.e. a king of the Goths.
However, Radagaisus is not listed among the ancestors of the
Ostrogothic Amals. Thus, other scholars argue that Radagaisus was a
Tervingian and possibly even the one who succeeded Athanaric. Thos
who believe that he as a Tervingian successor of Athanaric usual
place him in the so called Caucaland, i.e. the Carpathian region.
Yet, most interestingly, Zosimos provides evidence for the
geographical origin of Radagaisus by stating that he had come from
the lands between Danube and Rhine. This is exactly the description
for the geographical location of the Thuringian kingdom and it would
make no sense if he had started out in the Carpathian mountain
region.

The author points out that the name Radagais appears later in the
Thuringian/Warnian royal family with a prince Radagis. The component
Rada- is found in royal Thuringian names like Rade-gundis (two
princesses) and a 7th century Thuringian duke/king Radaulf. The `–
gais `component of Radagais is used again in the name of the
Thuringian prince Arta-gais/Arta – chis.

As mentioned earlier, the author deliberately excluded archaeological
evidence in order to avoid circular argumentation. One a footnote in
her study refers to supportive archaeology. However, the
archaeological evidence available already is in my view a key support
for the theory that Theuringi/Thuringians are identical with
Theruingi/Tervingian Goths. Berthold Schmidt has shown already in the
1980s and 1990s that substantial groups of carriers of the
Cheryhakovsk/Sintana-de-Mures culture (which is associated with the
Goths) arrived in middle Germany and settled at the centre of the
later Thuringian kingdom. These groups are known under the technical
terms Grossbadegaster and Niemburger groups. They arrived in middle
Germany in the 370/380s just at the time when Athanaric's Tervingi
disappear from the sources. Following Grahn-Hoek's argument these
would have been the Athanaric-Tervingi probably under the leadership
of Radagais.

Overall, H. Grahn-Hoek's study is extremely well argued and provides
a wealth of information. I think it is particularly important not
only for its contribution to Thuringian history and in particular the
ethnic/political origin of this people, but also because of the
contribution to Gothic history. It now seems likely that besides the
various creations of historically important Gothic kingdom on the
territory of the Roman empire, there was also one historically
important Gothic kingdom founded outside the Roman empire `…remotum
ab omni notia barbarorum…' which, in line with Zosimos, was located
between Danube and the Rhine centring on an area that carries its
name to this day.

Cheers
Dirk

> --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "Roman Rausch" <aranwe@m...>
wrote:
>

> >
> > Akei rûna libáináis raíhtis,
> > Yet [a] secret [of] life indeed,


Re. my comments on the position of RAIHTIS, this might be okay
actually, given: du leitilamma mela raihtis...  But in favour of
placing it after RUNA in the middle of the genitive phrase, cf. in
mela raihtis şulainais (Sk 2,1).  At 2Cor 10,10 it even comes
between demonstrative and noun, in contrast to the Greek: unte şos
raihtis bokos ´OTI ´AI EPISTOLAI MEN "for those letters".

GUDE "of gods" appears a few times in the compound 'galiugagude' "of
false gods".

Ll.N.

--- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "WILHELM OTTO" <wilhelm.otto@s...>
wrote:
> The old bards hid their truth in a box, in a
> box and so on.


True, and then they put the outside box inside the inside box, just
to be sure.


> But I see no fish here.



You have to fish for them...



>  He thought he recognised it as a small
> shark - but could not swear on it.



Never swear on a shark.  That´s my motto.



> I ask just for reference, as you have helped me, if your name is
Llama Nom.


Well, it's my Yahoo name, but you don´t need to credit me.  It would
make more sense to cite the sources I used: Simek´s "Dictionary of
Northern Mythology", and the Old Icelandic dictionaries of Fritzner
[ http://www.dok.hf.uio.no/perl/search/search.cgi?
appid=86&tabid=1275 ], and Cleasby & Vigfusson [
http://www.ling.upenn.edu/%
7Ekurisuto/germanic/oi_cleasbyvigfusson_about.html#images%20 ].

Good luck with your research,
LN

The main questions I would have regarding this theory are:
-- why wouldn't anyone 400-600 have called the Thuringians "Goths"?  They
were allied to Theodoric's italian kingdom and generally appear as
themselves but no mention is made of Northern Goths.  the Gothic name at
this time would be far more prestigious and I would assume that it would
be much vaunted.
-- wouldn't this involve a major linguistic shift from East Germanic?  Is
there any evidence of this?

Tom


faltin2001 wrote:
>     Hello all,
>
>  I read the study „Stamm und Reich der frühen Thüringer nach den
>  Schriftquellen" (i.e. Folk/tribe and realm of the early Thuringians
>  according to historical sources) by Dr. Heike Grahn-Hoek,  in
>  Zeitschrift des Vereins für Thüringische Geschichte, Vol. 56 (2002).
>  The study comprises 87 pages in small print. It is extremely well
>  sourced and argued to the highest academic standards. As indicated by
>  the title, the author relies exclusively on historical sources and in
>  fact explicitly excludes archaeological evidence to avoid circular
>  arguments. As far as I can see, her study was well received by other
>  historians (e.g. H. Castritius in RGA).
>
>  The argument of key interest in my view centres on the origin of the
>  Thuringians. The author explains that the most common theory suggests
>  that the name was derived from an older tribal name Hermun-d u r e n.
>  However, she adds that this explanation has always been doubted by
>  linguists. Thus, the author re-examines the various name forms
>  provided in the earliest sources. Based on Malchus a Greek source of
>  the 5th cent. who provided the Greek form The-ou-r-ingoi (in Latin
>  The-u-r-ingi)  she argues that this name may be derived from The-r-u-
>  ingi the name of the Gothic Tervingi through a simple switch of ou/u
>  and r. She states that there are other examples in antique sources
>  where such an `u - r switch' occurred.
>
>  The author states that the time frame for the emergence of
>  Theuringoi/Thuringians and the disappearance of Theruingi/Tervingi
>  around 400 AD matches perfectly. The Theuringi are first mentioned in
>  400AD (Vegetius), but the source implies that at this time they were
>  already very well known throughout the empire. Thus, the
>  identification of Theuringi with Theruingi would fill a gap in the
>  sources.
>
>  Next, the author moves to the main part of her examination, the study
>  of historical sources in order to see whether a link between
>  Theuringi/Thuringians and Theruingi/Tervingians can be postulated. In
>  shortest possible terms, she takes the events surrounding Athanaric's
>  Tervingi as the starting point. Faced with the Hunnic onslaught, in
>  the 370s the Tervingi were beset by a crisis with a pro-Roman, pro-
>  Christian faction led by Fritigern which sought settlements within
>  the Roman empire and a pagan anti-Roman faction led by the Athanaric.
>  Athanaric had at one stage vowed never to set food on Roman soil.
>  Yet, for whatever reason he was later compelled to seek refuge with a
>  small following in Constantinopel. His part of the Tervingi was taken
>  over by `proximorum factione' (ie. relatives), who according to
>  Marcellinus Comes sought refuge "far away in lands (domicilium
>  remotum) unknown to the Huns". The author's argumentation here is
>  extremely detailed and suggest that these Tervingi were located
>  further north than often believed at that time.
>
>  Next, the author discusses the campaign of Radagaisus in 405/06. She
>  explains that his attribution to Greutungi (Ostrogoths) or Tervingi
>  (Visigoths) is uncertain. Since he is described as a pagan in
>  contrast to the Christian Tervingi under Alaric some scholars argue
>  that he must have been a Greutungian Goths. However, the sources call
>  him simply a rex (basileus) Gothorum, i.e. a king of the Goths.
>  However, Radagaisus is not listed among the ancestors of the
>  Ostrogothic Amals. Thus, other scholars argue that Radagaisus was a
>  Tervingian and possibly even the one who succeeded Athanaric. Thos
>  who believe that he as a Tervingian successor of Athanaric usual
>  place him in the so called Caucaland, i.e. the Carpathian region.
>  Yet, most interestingly, Zosimos provides evidence for the
>  geographical origin of Radagaisus by stating that he had come from
>  the lands between Danube and Rhine. This is exactly the description
>  for the geographical location of the Thuringian kingdom and it would
>  make no sense if he had started out in the Carpathian mountain
>  region.
>
>  The author points out that the name Radagais appears later in the
>  Thuringian/Warnian royal family with a prince Radagis. The component
>  Rada- is found in royal Thuringian names like Rade-gundis (two
>  princesses) and a 7th century Thuringian duke/king Radaulf. The `–
>  gais `component of Radagais is used again in the name of the
>  Thuringian prince Arta-gais/Arta – chis.
>
>  As mentioned earlier, the author deliberately excluded archaeological
>  evidence in order to avoid circular argumentation. One a footnote in
>  her study refers to supportive archaeology. However, the
>  archaeological evidence available already is in my view a key support
>  for the theory that Theuringi/Thuringians are identical with
>  Theruingi/Tervingian Goths. Berthold Schmidt has shown already in the
>  1980s and 1990s that substantial groups of carriers of the
>  Cheryhakovsk/Sintana-de-Mures culture (which is associated with the
>  Goths) arrived in middle Germany and settled at the centre of the
>  later Thuringian kingdom. These groups are known under the technical
>  terms Grossbadegaster and Niemburger groups. They arrived in middle
>  Germany in the 370/380s just at the time when Athanaric's Tervingi
>  disappear from the sources. Following Grahn-Hoek's argument these
>  would have been the Athanaric-Tervingi probably under the leadership
>  of Radagais.
>
>  Overall, H. Grahn-Hoek's study is extremely well argued and provides
>  a wealth of information. I think it is particularly important not
>  only for its contribution to Thuringian history and in particular the
>  ethnic/political origin of this people, but also because of the
>  contribution to Gothic history. It now seems likely that besides the
>  various creations of historically important Gothic kingdom on the
>  territory of the Roman empire, there was also one historically
>  important Gothic kingdom founded outside the Roman empire `…remotum
>  ab omni notia barbarorum…' which, in line with Zosimos, was located
>  between Danube and the Rhine centring on an area that carries its
>  name to this day.
>
>  Cheers
>  Dirk
>
>
>
>
>
>