hackers-il : Messages : 3353-3382 of 5201

This is a quiz in which you have to guess whether the picture is of a
serial killer or a programming language designer:

http://www.malevole.com/mv/misc/killerquiz/

Regards,

	 Shlomi Fish

----------------------------------------------------------------------
Shlomi Fish        shlomif@...
Home Page:         http://t2.technion.ac.il/~shlomif/

An apple a day will keep a doctor away. Two apples a day will keep two
doctors away.

	 Falk Fish

#3354

From: Beni Cherniavsky <cben@...>
Date: Tue Aug 5, 2003 3:48 pm
Subject: Re: Quiz: Programming Language Designer or Serial Killer?

cben@...

Shlomi Fish wrote on 2003-08-05:

> This is a quiz in which you have to guess whether the picture is of a
> serial killer or a programming language designer:
>
> http://www.malevole.com/mv/misc/killerquiz/
>
There is nothing definite I can point at for telling them apart but
surprisingly I got 9/10 right.  That's calming, especially since I'm
addicted to anything resembling language design myself ;-)...

Perhaps there is a psycological factor that forced the composer of the
quiz to be more predictable; in particular I think there were never
more than 2 in a row of the same kind...

--
Beni Cherniavsky <cben@...>

Put a backslash at the evening to continue hacking onto the next day.

#3355

From: Muli Ben-Yehuda <mulix@...>
Date: Thu Aug 7, 2003 1:57 pm
Subject: [OT] Compilers - Principles, Techniques and Tools for sell/barter

muxtub2001

barter
Reply-To:

[I hope books for sale / barter are not too offtopic here. If you feel
they are and I have commited a gross indecency, flame away]

I just got back from the post office, where I picked up a couple of
packages from the Open University. One of them was the course material
for the compilation class I'll be taking next year. The bulk of the
package was the book "Compilers - Principals, Techniques and Tools",
by Aho, Sethi and Ullman
(http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0201100886). Since I
already have a copy of the book, I'm offering it up for grabs. Amazon
is selling it for 92$. I will sell it for the same price, shipping in
Israel on me, or will trade it for a CS/EE/Math book of equal
stature. The book is in mint condition. Let me know if interested...

Cheers,
Muli.
--
Muli Ben-Yehuda
http://www.mulix.org

#3356

From: Shlomi Fish <shlomif@...>
Date: Thu Aug 7, 2003 8:40 pm
Subject: Ongoing Translation of ESR's "Homesteading the Noosphere"

shlomif3

I started to translate ESR's "Homesteading the Noosphere". You can find
what I have now (the Introduction and one other chapter) here:

http://t2.technion.ac.il/~shlomif/homesteading/

(OpenOffice, HTML, and PDF formats)

I'll appreciate any help in either translating or proof-reading the
translation. E-mail me if you volunteer.

Regards,

	 Shlomi Fish



----------------------------------------------------------------------
Shlomi Fish        shlomif@...
Home Page:         http://t2.technion.ac.il/~shlomif/

There's no point in keeping an idea to yourself since there's a 10 to 1
chance that somebody already has it and will share it before you.

#3357

From: Shlomi Fish <shlomif@...>
Date: Fri Aug 8, 2003 3:58 pm
Subject: Re: Finding the Graham's Function

shlomif2

On Wed, 30 Jul 2003, Beni Cherniavsky wrote:

> Shlomi Fish wrote on 2003-07-30:
>
> > Here:
> >
> > http://vipe.technion.ac.il/~shlomif/lecture/Perl/Graham-Function/
> >
> > You can find a lecture and Perl code I wrote for finding the Graham
> > Function. It was done as part of one of Mark Jason Dominus' Perl Quizes of
> > the Week.
> >
> > To calculate the Graham Function one needs to find an increasing sequence
> > of integers starting from the integer in question, so that their product
> > is a perfect square and the largest number is as small as possible. Then,
> > the graham function is the largest number.
> >
> > My solution to the problem uses some Linear Algebra concepts to solve the
> > problem.
> >
> Cute!  I've just read some { Graham (this one!), Knuth (the one ;),
> Patashnik }'s "Concrete Mathematics" so I can't resist studying such a
> problem ;-).  Some notes:
>
> - The `n + largest_factor` optimization is relatively poorly
>   explained, especially in the lecture notes -- at least it took me
>   lots of time and code studying to understand it, while the rest was
>   easy.  The explanation doesn't mentions that you might need `n +
>   2*largest_factor` if `n + largest_factor` divides by
>   `largest_factor` an even number of times.  It uses a "SqFact"
>   notation that doesn't appear anywhere else, confusing because
>   "get_squaring_factors()" is used near it.  And most importantly,
>   s/fit a square of /fit any square * /; I couldn't make any sense of
>   this sentence for a long time.
>
> - A simple experiment (add ``print "optimized";`` and grep -c for it)
>   gives a fascinating result: this optimization works with apparently
>   constant probability of about 43% over any range of consecutive
>   numbers!  Perhaps not constant -- but it decreases very slowly.  I
>   probed short ranges up to ~270000:
>
>   1000-2000: 436/1001 = 0.436
>   2000-3000: 437/1001 = 0.437
>   10000-10100: 44/101 = 0.436
>   20000-20100: 42/101 = 0.416
>   70000-70100: 39/101 = 0.386
>   200000-200020: 7/21 = 0.333
>   267800-267820: 6/21 = 0.285
>
>   The last results suggest slow decrease but their precision is low
>   (for big numbers I took ranges of only 20 numbers since it takes
>   ages to run).  Any explanation?  Where does 0.43 come from?  I bet
>   it involves pi or e :-).
>

Here are my experminet results (don't calculate the entire function -
just checks if the optimization works or not):

1000-2000 : 436
2000-3000 : 437
10000-11000 : 437
20000-21000 : 428
70000-71000 : 439
200000-201000 : 398
267800-268800 : 400

What that means - I don't know. It seems that after 200,000 the ratio has
decreased to about 0.4 instead of 0.43.

Regards,

	 Shlomi Fish


----------------------------------------------------------------------
Shlomi Fish        shlomif@...
Home Page:         http://t2.technion.ac.il/~shlomif/

An apple a day will keep a doctor away. Two apples a day will keep two
doctors away.

	 Falk Fish

#3358

From: Beni Cherniavsky <cben@...>
Date: Sun Aug 10, 2003 11:34 am
Subject: Re: Ongoing Translation of ESR's "Homesteading the Noosphere"

cben@...

Shlomi Fish wrote on 2003-08-07:

> I'll appreciate any help in either translating or proof-reading the
> translation. E-mail me if you volunteer.
>
I've read what you have so far.

- The translation should link to the English original.

- I see you abandoned the orginal title; the "noosphere" concept is
   quite central to the rest of the article -- but I can't find any
   translation retaining it that is nearly as catchy as your title...

- Typo: about the middle, "Im HaPragmati Shone Mashehu," --
   s/Shone/Sone/ (s/<heh>/<aleph>/, funny how it moves to a different
   letter in the transcription).

- The naive translation of "fork" as "Mazleg" sounds strange.  I guess
   the English term has roots in unix fork() calls, but even before
   that, in English a tree, road or river can "fork", which is not the
   case in Hebrew.  Oxford English->Hebrew dictionary translates the
   noun "fork" as "Mis'af" and the verb as "Lehista'ef".  There is no
   non-reflexive form for "he forked the project", this seems to be a
   jargon extension.  "Lesa'ef" is one obvious suggestion but a
   Hebrew->Russian dictionary gives "to cut branches from a tree" as
   one of its meaning which is directly opposite to what we want to
   say.

   I'd go for "Lefatzel" or "Lefaleg"; a fork would be "Hista'afut" or
   "Feleg".

--
Beni Cherniavsky <cben@...>

#3359

From: Shlomi Fish <shlomif@...>
Date: Sun Aug 10, 2003 2:02 pm
Subject: Re: Ongoing Translation of ESR's "Homesteading the Noosphere"

shlomif3

On Sun, 10 Aug 2003, Beni Cherniavsky wrote:

> Shlomi Fish wrote on 2003-08-07:
>
> > I'll appreciate any help in either translating or proof-reading the
> > translation. E-mail me if you volunteer.
> >
> I've read what you have so far.
>
> - The translation should link to the English original.
>

OK.

> - I seeyou abandoned the orginal title; the "noosphere" concept is
> quite central to the rest of the article -- but I can't find any
> translation retaining it that is nearly as catchy as your title...
>

I did not purposely abandon the title. I believed noosphere would
translate into Hebrew as "Shmama". How would you translate it? "Sfar"?
"Eretz Lo-Meyusheveth"?

> - Typo: about the middle, "Im HaPragmati Shone Mashehu," --
> s/Shone/Sone/ (s/<heh>/<aleph>/, funny how it moves to a different
> letter in the transcription).
>

Fixed.

> - The naive translation of "fork" as "Mazleg" sounds strange.I guess
> the English term has roots in unix fork() calls, but even before
> that, in English a tree, road or river can "fork", which is not the
> case in Hebrew.  Oxford English->Hebrew dictionary translates the
> noun "fork" as "Mis'af" and the verb as "Lehista'ef".  There is no
> non-reflexive form for "he forked the project", this seems to be a
> jargon extension.  "Lesa'ef" is one obvious suggestion but a
> Hebrew->Russian dictionary gives "to cut branches from a tree" as
> one of its meaning which is directly opposite to what we want to
> say.
>

Se'ef is hardly used as "to cut branches from a tree". At least I never
heard of it used this way. OTOH, it does has a meaning of dividing into
sections which is what we want. So, I'm going to use it.

> I'd go for "Lefatzel" or "Lefaleg"; a fork would be "Hista'afut" or
> "Feleg".
>

Thanks for your input.

Regards,

	 Shlomi Fish

> --
> Beni Cherniavsky <cben@...>
>
> =================================================================
> To unsubscribe, send mail to linux-il-request@... with
> the word "unsubscribe" in the message body, e.g., run the command
> echo unsubscribe | mail linux-il-request@...
>



----------------------------------------------------------------------
Shlomi Fish        shlomif@...
Home Page:         http://t2.technion.ac.il/~shlomif/

There's no point in keeping an idea to yourself since there's a 10 to 1
chance that somebody already has it and will share it before you.

#3360

From: Shlomi Fish <shlomif@...>
Date: Mon Aug 11, 2003 1:38 pm
Subject: Re: Ongoing Translation of ESR's "Homesteading the Noosphere"

shlomif3

On Mon, 11 Aug 2003, Uri Bruck wrote:

>
> I may have missed the beginning of this, where was the translation posted?
>

http://t2.technion.ac.il/~shlomif/homesteading/

Regards,

	 Shlomi Fish

----------------------------------------------------------------------
Shlomi Fish        shlomif@...
Home Page:         http://t2.technion.ac.il/~shlomif/

There's no point in keeping an idea to yourself since there's a 10 to 1
chance that somebody already has it and will share it before you.

#3361

From: "Tzahi Fadida" <Tzahi_ML@...>
Date: Tue Aug 12, 2003 9:13 am
Subject: finding the difference between emails in a pop account

Tzahi_ML@...

i am trying to write a mail notifier that will identify a new mail.
it turns out that the numbers when you
do a "list" command in a pop account are not unique.
do you know how to diffrentiate between same numbers?
for example:
1 664
2 664
3 3557
4 3560

also if i do "dele 2" the number 3 will become 2 so it will now show:
1 664
2 3557
3 3560

i.e: the enumeration on the left side has no unique standing here.
* - * - *
Tzahi Fadida
MSc Student
Information System Engineering Area
Faculty of Industrial Engineering & Management
Technion - Israel Institute of Technology
Technion City, Haifa, Israel 32000
Email TzahiFadida@...
Technion Email: Tzahi@...
* - * - * - * - * - * - * - * - * - *

WARNING TO SPAMMERS:  see at http://members.lycos.co.uk/my2nis/spamwarning.html

#3362

From: Alon Altman <alon@...>
Date: Tue Aug 12, 2003 8:17 am
Subject: Re: finding the difference between emails in a pop account

alon@...

Use the UIDL command

> i am trying to write a mail notifier that will identify a new mail.
> it turns out that the numbers when you
> do a "list" command in a pop account are not unique.
> do you know how to diffrentiate between same numbers?
> for example:
> 1 664
> 2 664
> 3 3557
> 4 3560
>
> also if i do "dele 2" the number 3 will become 2 so it will now show:
> 1 664
> 2 3557
> 3 3560
>
> i.e: the enumeration on the left side has no unique standing here.
> * - * - *
> Tzahi Fadida
> MSc Student
> Information System Engineering Area
> Faculty of Industrial Engineering & Management
> Technion - Israel Institute of Technology
> Technion City, Haifa, Israel 32000
> Email TzahiFadida@...
> Technion Email: Tzahi@...
> * - * - * - * - * - * - * - * - * - *
>
> WARNING TO SPAMMERS:  see at
http://members.lycos.co.uk/my2nis/spamwarning.html
>
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> hackers-il-unsubscribe@egroups.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>

--
This message was sent by Alon Altman (alon@...) ICQ:1366540
GPG public key at http://alon.wox.org/pubkey.txt
Key fingerprint = A670 6C81 19D3 3773 3627  DE14 B44A 50A3 FE06 7F24
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
  -=[ Random Fortune ]=-
Old men are fond of giving good advice to console themselves for their
inability to set a bad example.
		 -- La Rochefoucauld, "Maxims"

#3363

From: "Tzahi Fadida" <Tzahi_ML@...>
Date: Tue Aug 12, 2003 12:40 pm
Subject: RE: finding the difference between emails in a pop account

Tzahi_ML@...

great, it works. 10x.
well, i wrote a pop3 email notifier via sms in perl. its pretty cumbersome since
i only started to
learn how to programm in perl yesterday evening.
if anyone needs such a thing here it is:
http://tx.technion.ac.il/~tzahi/pop2sms

enjoy.

N.B: if you use it, don't forget to -init as a precaution. and don't forget to
change the
directories in the script and create the password file .pop2smsrc (see the
script).

special thanks, to nadav har'el for the smssend.
and to alon altman with the uidl command.
10x.

* - * - *
Tzahi Fadida
MSc Student
Information System Engineering Area
Faculty of Industrial Engineering & Management
Technion - Israel Institute of Technology
Technion City, Haifa, Israel 32000
Email TzahiFadida@...
Technion Email: Tzahi@...
* - * - * - * - * - * - * - * - * - *

WARNING TO SPAMMERS:  see at http://members.lycos.co.uk/my2nis/spamwarning.html

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Alon Altman [mailto:alon@...]
> Sent: Tuesday, August 12, 2003 10:17 AM
> To: hackers-il@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [hackers-il] finding the difference between emails in a pop
account
>
>
>
> Use the UIDL command
>
> > i am trying to write a mail notifier that will identify a new mail.
> > it turns out that the numbers when you
> > do a "list" command in a pop account are not unique.
> > do you know how to diffrentiate between same numbers?
> > for example:
> > 1 664
> > 2 664
> > 3 3557
> > 4 3560
> >
> > also if i do "dele 2" the number 3 will become 2 so it will now show:
> > 1 664
> > 2 3557
> > 3 3560
> >
> > i.e: the enumeration on the left side has no unique standing here.
> > * - * - *
> > Tzahi Fadida
> > MSc Student
> > Information System Engineering Area
> > Faculty of Industrial Engineering & Management
> > Technion - Israel Institute of Technology
> > Technion City, Haifa, Israel 32000
> > Email TzahiFadida@...
> > Technion Email: Tzahi@...
> > * - * - * - * - * - * - * - * - * - *
> >
> > WARNING TO SPAMMERS:  see at
http://members.lycos.co.uk/my2nis/spamwarning.html
> >
> >
> >
> > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> > hackers-il-unsubscribe@egroups.com
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >
>
> --
> This message was sent by Alon Altman (alon@...) ICQ:1366540
> GPG public key at http://alon.wox.org/pubkey.txt
> Key fingerprint = A670 6C81 19D3 3773 3627  DE14 B44A 50A3 FE06 7F24
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
>  -=[ Random Fortune ]=-
> Old men are fond of giving good advice to console themselves for their
> inability to set a bad example.
> 	 -- La Rochefoucauld, "Maxims"
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> hackers-il-unsubscribe@egroups.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
>

#3364

From: Oleg Goldshmidt <pub@...>
Date: Wed Aug 13, 2003 6:57 pm
Subject: spam milestone reached

pub@...

"Nadav Har'El" <nyh@...> writes in linux-il:

> I get about 200 emails a day, around 50 of which are spam.

Consider yourself lucky. I am not sure about the etiquette rules for
citing a posting to one list in a new thread on another, but this
would be OT for linux-il, there is a significant intersection in
audience, and your cited message was very timely, because I just read
an article on spam in the newest issue of Spectrum. I am not sure if

http://www.spectrum.ieee.org/spectrum/aug03/features/spam.html

is available to everybody or only to IEEE members, but there is no
harm in trying the URL.

Besides the welcome emphasis on open source anti-spam filters (mostly
Bayesian, Graham's "Plan for Spam" occupying a very prominent position
in the text), there are some interesting tidbits that I thought were
worth mentioning.

It appears that the world has reached a new milestone of dubious moral
and economic value: this past May the amount of spam exceeded
legitimate emails for the first time in history, according to a UK
email security firm MessageLabs Ltd.

Fortunately, up to 80% of spam never reaches end users, being filtered
by ISPs. AOL, for instance, discards 2.4 BILLION spam messages A DAY,
equivalent to 70 emails a day in each subscriber's mailbox (numbers
for MSN are similar). Damn! If that's 80% then 600 million spam
messages a day do reach AOL subscribers, which is of the order of 18 a
day per mailbox. I am as aware of the problem as the next guy, but the
numbers are bloody impressive.

What is not clear from the article (the numbers are given by an AOL
executive) is whether the spam goes *to* AOL subscribers or *from* AOL
subscribers. In the latter case just 100 spammers sending out 30
million messages a day on average will account for the traffic. That's
not the record: e.g. a guy nicknamed "Buffalo Spammer" sent 825 million
messages to a single ISP, Earthlink. He used 343 accounts, and used up
$1MM worth of bandwidth. He was arrested and tried, albeit not on spam
charges (spam is legal), but for bank fraud (stolen credit cards) and
identity theft (using the cards to open bogus accounts). [Google for
"Buffalo Spammer" if curious.]

The article also gives a well-known explanation for the
phenomenon. Your expenses as a spammer are a PC, an Internet account
(or several), and e-mail lists, which are less than $100 for several
million addresses. Figure a $2000 investment all in all. If you are
selling a product for $59.95, you need 34 purchases for, say, 20
million mailings to break even. You can safely bet that more than
0.00017% of the world's population are suckers, even if you count only
connected induhviduhals. Direct mail print campaigns need 1.5-2.0%
response rate to break even - 4 orders of magnitude difference.

I am immune to LovScan and other afflictions related to open
windows. But spam gets to my Linux box, too. Deep sigh...

--
Oleg Goldshmidt | pub@...

#3365

From: Omer Zak <omerz@...>
Date: Wed Aug 13, 2003 8:33 pm
Subject: Python vs. Lisp/Scheme

omerz@...

Peter Norvig wrote an article titled "Python for Lisp Programmers"
(at URL: http://www.norvig.com/python-lisp.html).

The surprising conclusion is that the only major Lisp feature missing
from Python is the Lisp macros.

I assume that the article is not completely up-to-date, so I am asking
any Python experts on Hackers-IL if they know of any PEP or
implementation which addresses the issue of macros in Python (and I
mean Lisp-like macros, not the lame C preprocessor macros).

                                              --- Omer
My opinions, as expressed in this E-mail message, are mine alone.
They do not represent the official policy of any organization with which
I may be affiliated in any way.
WARNING TO SPAMMERS:  at http://www.zak.co.il/spamwarning.html

#3366

From: Gilad Ben-Yossef <gilad@...>
Date: Thu Aug 14, 2003 9:02 am
Subject: Re: finding the difference between emails in a pop account

gilad@...

Alon Altman wrote:
> Use the UIDL command
>
>
>>i am trying to write a mail notifier that will identify a new mail.
>>it turns out that the numbers when you
>>do a "list" command in a pop account are not unique.
>>do you know how to diffrentiate between same numbers?
>>for example:
>>1 664
>>2 664
>>3 3557
>>4 3560


I am curious - why did you expect these numbers to be unique?

AFAIK, they are the messages sizes.

Gilad

#3367

From: "Tzahi Fadida" <Tzahi_ML@...>
Date: Thu Aug 14, 2003 10:12 am
Subject: RE: finding the difference between emails in a pop account

Tzahi_ML@...

yep, i know it now. there seems to be no "help" anymore, at least on the pops i
tried.
don't know why, in the past the help command worked most of the time.
maybe its a security risk or something. (or its no longer "help").


* - * - *
Tzahi Fadida
MSc Student
Information System Engineering Area
Faculty of Industrial Engineering & Management
Technion - Israel Institute of Technology
Technion City, Haifa, Israel 32000
Email TzahiFadida@...
Technion Email: Tzahi@...
* - * - * - * - * - * - * - * - * - *

WARNING TO SPAMMERS:  see at http://members.lycos.co.uk/my2nis/spamwarning.html

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Gilad Ben-Yossef [mailto:gilad@...]
> Sent: Thursday, August 14, 2003 11:03 AM
> To: hackers-il@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [hackers-il] finding the difference between emails in a pop
account
>
>
> Alon Altman wrote:
> > Use the UIDL command
> >
> >
> >>i am trying to write a mail notifier that will identify a new mail.
> >>it turns out that the numbers when you
> >>do a "list" command in a pop account are not unique.
> >>do you know how to diffrentiate between same numbers?
> >>for example:
> >>1 664
> >>2 664
> >>3 3557
> >>4 3560
>
>
> I am curious - why did you expect these numbers to be unique?
>
> AFAIK, they are the messages sizes.
>
> Gilad
>
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> hackers-il-unsubscribe@egroups.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
>

#3368

From: Tal Rotbart <talr@...>
Date: Thu Aug 14, 2003 10:51 am
Subject: RE: finding the difference between emails in a pop a ccount

Tal Rotbart

Consider reading the RFC for the POP3 protocol. It is not difficult...
http://www.faqs.org/rfcs/rfc1939.html

Enjoy,

Tal Rotbart
Software Engineer
Topaz Business Availability
Mercury Interactive Inc.

eMail: talr at mercury.co.il
Work: 03-5399753
Cell: 058-96 50 25

Java *Gulp* - Hard Core Java Action
http://opium.mine.nu/blog/javagulp/


-----Original Message-----
From: Tzahi Fadida [mailto:Tzahi_ML@...]
Sent: Thursday, August 14, 2003 1:13 PM
To: hackers-il@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [hackers-il] finding the difference between emails in a pop
account


yep, i know it now. there seems to be no "help" anymore, at least on the
pops i tried. don't know why, in the past the help command worked most of
the time. maybe its a security risk or something. (or its no longer "help").


* - * - *
Tzahi Fadida
MSc Student
Information System Engineering Area
Faculty of Industrial Engineering & Management
Technion - Israel Institute of Technology
Technion City, Haifa, Israel 32000
Email TzahiFadida@...
Technion Email: Tzahi@...
* - * - * - * - * - * - * - * - * - *

WARNING TO SPAMMERS:  see at
http://members.lycos.co.uk/my2nis/spamwarning.html

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Gilad Ben-Yossef [mailto:gilad@...]
> Sent: Thursday, August 14, 2003 11:03 AM
> To: hackers-il@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [hackers-il] finding the difference between emails in a
> pop account
>
>
> Alon Altman wrote:
> > Use the UIDL command
> >
> >
> >>i am trying to write a mail notifier that will identify a new mail.
> >>it turns out that the numbers when you do a "list" command in a pop
> >>account are not unique. do you know how to diffrentiate between same
> >>numbers? for example:
> >>1 664
> >>2 664
> >>3 3557
> >>4 3560
>
>
> I am curious - why did you expect these numbers to be unique?
>
> AFAIK, they are the messages sizes.
>
> Gilad
>
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> hackers-il-unsubscribe@egroups.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
>


------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Buy
Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for Your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark Printer
at Myinks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US & Canada.
http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511
http://us.click.yahoo.com/l.m7sD/LIdGAA/qnsNAA/saFolB/TM
---------------------------------------------------------------------~->

To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
hackers-il-unsubscribe@egroups.com



Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/



________________________________________________________________________
This email has been scanned for all viruses.

Mercury Interactive Corporation
Optimizing Business Processes to Maximize Business Results

http://www.merc-int.com
________________________________________________________________________

________________________________________________________________________
This email has been scanned for all viruses.

Mercury Interactive Corporation
Optimizing Business Processes to Maximize Business Results

http://www.merc-int.com
________________________________________________________________________

#3369

From: Beni Cherniavsky <cben@...>
Date: Thu Aug 14, 2003 5:20 pm
Subject: Re: Python vs. Lisp/Scheme

cben@...

Omer Zak wrote on 2003-08-13:

> Peter Norvig wrote an article titled "Python for Lisp Programmers"
> (at URL: http://www.norvig.com/python-lisp.html).
>
> The surprising conclusion is that the only major Lisp feature missing
> from Python is the Lisp macros.
>
Yep, Python is known as "Lisp without the paraentheses" and part of
the implication is that it's without macros.

> I assume that the article is not completely up-to-date, so I am asking
> any Python experts on Hackers-IL if they know of any PEP or
> implementation which addresses the issue of macros in Python (and I
> mean Lisp-like macros, not the lame C preprocessor macros).
>
There were repeated heated discussions on this.  Search c.l.python if
you have some spare days for reading ;-).  They went in two
directions:

- Do we want to have macros in Python at all or will they be abused?

   This was mainly a religious discussion; those that had tasted lisp
   macros (me included) argue they are a Good Thing while those who
   only have sober experience with C macros or who didn't like lisp
   think Joe Average shouldn't be trusted with such a powerful thing.
   This curiously deviates from Python's approach of "we are all adults
   here" but it's true that real macros change a language's shape
   considerably.

- What would Pythonic macros look like?  Should they be hygienic or
   not?  What syntax should they have?  Desinging a pythonic macro
   system is surprisingly hard (believe me, I've been thinking about it
   since I learnt Python ;-).

   One of the reasons is that Python is desinged to provide an illusion
   of no previous compilation step (it exists but only as an
   optimization).  Intorducing one would be bad.  Very.  It should be
   possible to e.g. import macros from libraries - but imports happen
   at run time.  This constrains your freedom a lot.

The general concensus is that they main thing people want is to define
their own block statements.  Expression-level macros are low priority.
There are no PEPs providing macros.  The only related one is `PEP
310`__ which addresses the main use case cited for macros -
abstracting try..finally pairs (lisp has the with-foo family of macros
which address it very elegantly).

__ http://www.python.org/peps/pep-0310.html

--
Beni Cherniavsky <cben@...>

#3370

From: Omer Zak <omerz@...>
Date: Fri Aug 15, 2003 7:00 am
Subject: Re: Python vs. Lisp/Scheme

omerz@...

Beni Cherniavsky wrote:

>Omer Zak wrote on 2003-08-13:
>
[... snipped ...]

>>I assume that the article is not completely up-to-date, so I am asking
>>any Python experts on Hackers-IL if they know of any PEP or
>>implementation which addresses the issue of macros in Python (and I
>>mean Lisp-like macros, not the lame C preprocessor macros).
>>
>>
>>
>There were repeated heated discussions on this.  Search c.l.python if
>you have some spare days for reading ;-).  They went in two
>directions:
>
[... interesting details were snipped ...]

I just love this kind of answer to my exploratory questions!

>__ http://www.python.org/peps/pep-0310.html
>
This PEP mentions another proposed control structure, which is
implemented by means of a try-finally block.
This leads me to the question whether there is any control structure,
which cannot be implemented in Python by means of a try-except and/or
try-finally blocks.
                                              --- Omer
My opinions, as expressed in this E-mail message, are mine alone.
They do not represent the official policy of any organization with which
I may be affiliated in any way.
WARNING TO SPAMMERS:  at http://www.zak.co.il/spamwarning.html

#3371

From: Beni Cherniavsky <cben@...>
Date: Fri Aug 15, 2003 1:37 pm
Subject: Re: Python vs. Lisp/Scheme

cben@...

Omer Zak wrote on 2003-08-15:

> >__ http://www.python.org/peps/pep-0310.html
> >
> This PEP mentions another proposed control structure, which is
> implemented by means of a try-finally block.
> This leads me to the question whether there is any control structure,
> which cannot be implemented in Python by means of a try-except and/or
> try-finally blocks.
>
I'm not sdure I understand your question correctly.  Do you mean that
since the proposed ``with`` construct is syntax sugar for ``try``, you
suspect that all constructs are syntax sugars for it?  The basic
answer is negative - how would ``try`` implement loops, conditionals,
``def`` and ``class``?  In non-abused usage, exceptions are only goof
exiting from constructs.  Stopping a for loop is already implemented
with the `StopIteration` exception and ``break``/``continue`` could be
implemented so (but aren't).

But if we abuse them, given only ``def``, function call and
exceptions, we could "implement" other constructs.  Here is a
conditional::

     def if(condition, body_if_true, body_if_false)
     try:
         1 / bool(condition())
     except ZeroDivisionError:  # Evil me, hahaha ;-)
         body_if_false()
     else:
         body_if_true()

(this has a bug of masking `ZeroDivisionError` when evaluating the
condition and assumes `bool` is builtin; what we really need is any
construct to raise different exceptions (or none) depending on the
thruthness of the expression and it's suspicuous to assume we have one
if we don't have conditionals...)

From here it's standard Scheme tricks to implement looping from
recursion (if we forget about the fact that Python doesn't do tail
recursion (because it uses the C stack)).  Here is while::

     def while_(cond, body):
         try:
             if cond:
                 try:
                     body()
                 except Continue_:
                     pass
                 while_(cond, body)
         except Break_:
             pass

(using if as syntax sugar for the above "implementation" and assuming
``break`` raises `Break_` and ``continue`` raises `Continue_`, which
is not how they work - they are only valid lexically inside a loop and
compile to simple goto opcodes).  Using this while, here is for::

     def for_(iterable, body):
         i = iter(iterable)
         while True:
             try:
                 item = i.next()
             except StopIteration:
                 break
             body(item)

All this sidesteps issues of scoping; scoping in Python is implemented
at compile time (which is one of the problems with macros) and the
above definitions would not be useful because the bodies you supply to
them can't modify variables in outer scopes (which is a problem with
Python's scoping, a compromise to avoid declarations).

And obviously, Python is not implemented in such hideous ways ;-).

--
Beni Cherniavsky <cben@...>

#3372

From: Omer Zak <omerz@...>
Date: Fri Aug 22, 2003 10:02 am
Subject: xml2lisp machine?

omerz@...

"XML machine the successor to von Neumann?"
http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/4/32452.html

What they are not telling us is that it is easy to transform between
the well-known parenthetical representation of LISP code and XML
representation.

I won't be surprised if this is what they did under the hood.
                                              --- Omer
My opinions, as expressed in this E-mail message, are mine alone.
They do not represent the official policy of any organization with which
I may be affiliated in any way.
WARNING TO SPAMMERS:  at http://www.zak.co.il/spamwarning.html

#3373

From: Oleg Goldshmidt <pub@...>
Date: Fri Aug 22, 2003 3:26 pm
Subject: Re: xml2lisp machine?

pub@...

Omer Zak <omerz@...> writes:

> "XML machine the successor to von Neumann?"
> http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/4/32452.html
>
> What they are not telling us is that it is easy to transform between
> the well-known parenthetical representation of LISP code and XML
> representation.
>
> I won't be surprised if this is what they did under the hood.

Given that "programs and data are the same" can be found before page
20 in any Lisp or Scheme book (OK, I have not checked, but you get my
drift), I would not be surprised if they resurrected a LispMachine
without telling their investors (who would panic in an instant).

To quote the article:

"The practical effect of this is the ability to develop new
applications with less code."

Sounds as if it is lifted directly from Paul Graham...

It seems that the new new thing is doing it in XML...

--
Oleg Goldshmidt | pub@...

#3374

From: "Tzahi Fadida" <Tzahi_ML@...>
Date: Fri Aug 22, 2003 5:42 pm
Subject: RE: xml2lisp machine?

Tzahi_ML@...

yes but you have to understand that this incarnation could be significant.
e.g. if some of you know dov dori OPM from our IE faculty IS department, you
could in principal very
easily create less ambigous and simpler to create code directly from the
diagrams. meaning, 100%
visual programming.
Currently we went with the java code generation, but maybe this could be another
alternative.
Programming to the masses?
only time will tell....

* - * - *
Tzahi Fadida
MSc Student
Information System Engineering Area
Faculty of Industrial Engineering & Management
Technion - Israel Institute of Technology
Technion City, Haifa, Israel 32000
Email TzahiFadida@...
Technion Email: Tzahi@...
* - * - * - * - * - * - * - * - * - *

WARNING TO SPAMMERS:  see at http://members.lycos.co.uk/my2nis/spamwarning.html

> -----Original Message-----
> From: oleg@... [mailto:oleg@...]On Behalf Of Oleg
Goldshmidt
> Sent: Friday, August 22, 2003 5:26 PM
> To: hackers-il@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [hackers-il] xml2lisp machine?
>
>
> Omer Zak <omerz@...> writes:
>
> > "XML machine the successor to von Neumann?"
> > http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/4/32452.html
> >
> > What they are not telling us is that it is easy to transform between
> > the well-known parenthetical representation of LISP code and XML
> > representation.
> >
> > I won't be surprised if this is what they did under the hood.
>
> Given that "programs and data are the same" can be found before page
> 20 in any Lisp or Scheme book (OK, I have not checked, but you get my
> drift), I would not be surprised if they resurrected a LispMachine
> without telling their investors (who would panic in an instant).
>
> To quote the article:
>
> "The practical effect of this is the ability to develop new
> applications with less code."
>
> Sounds as if it is lifted directly from Paul Graham...
>
> It seems that the new new thing is doing it in XML...
>
> --
> Oleg Goldshmidt | pub@...
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> hackers-il-unsubscribe@egroups.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
>

#3375

From: Tzafrir Cohen <tzafrir@...>
Date: Fri Aug 22, 2003 7:49 pm
Subject: Re: xml2lisp machine?

tzafrir@...

On Fri, Aug 22, 2003 at 01:02:48PM +0300, Omer Zak wrote:
> "XML machine the successor to von Neumann?"
> http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/4/32452.html
>
> What they are not telling us is that it is easy to transform between
> the well-known parenthetical representation of LISP code and XML
> representation.

Natually: It saves you the bother to write a parser that will build a
source tree from the source file.

But then again, I figure nobody (besides Real Programmers) will
actually write such code manyally, as it is probably a messy syntax.

>
> I won't be surprised if this is what they did under the hood.

s/XML/text/ while reading that article. And you'll sudenly realize that
this is nothing new, just a change of media.

And besides: there are good reasons for seperating code from data.

Seems likeyet another scripting language...

--
Tzafrir Cohen                       +---------------------------+
http://www.technion.ac.il/~tzafrir/ |vim is a mutt's best friend|
mailto:tzafrir@...       +---------------------------+

#3376

From: Tzafrir Cohen <tzafrir@...>
Date: Mon Aug 25, 2003 8:26 pm
Subject: Re: xml2lisp machine?

tzafrir@...

On Fri, Aug 22, 2003 at 07:42:57PM +0200, Tzahi Fadida wrote:
> yes but you have to understand that this incarnation could be
> significant. e.g. if some of you know dov dori OPM from our IE
> faculty IS department, you could in principal very easily create
> less ambigous and simpler to create code directly from the diagrams.
> meaning, 100% visual programming.
>
> Currently we went with the java code generation, but maybe this could
> be another alternative.
> Programming to the masses?
> only time will tell....

What do we have so far?

We have a company that sell a relatively cheap development environment.
It has an "xml" buzzowrd written on it.

Omer then added a speculation on how it is implemented, and that it
could be very effective.

You added a speculation that it would fit for a certain interesting
project.

A couple of reminders: XML is intended to help build a united toolchain
an thus allow much standartization and code reuse.

However we have a different task here: parse a program code and make good
use of it, efficiently. I am not well aware of the current technologies,
but I figure that the xml toolchain does not have much to add here. And
recall the existing frameworks raleted to Java and to .Net that involve
portable byte-code.

many programing languages can compile their own code on-the-fly. List was
probably the first. And really-good "scripting" language (practically
all of them are half-compiled) has such capability.

Those languages tend to have a small part written in C (or whatever) and
most other things implemented using the languages's code.

Anyway, this field is not intersting for me, as this silly company is
getting a patent on it. Why would I bother looking into a
paten-encumbered field?

--
Tzafrir Cohen                       +---------------------------+
http://www.technion.ac.il/~tzafrir/ |vim is a mutt's best friend|
mailto:tzafrir@...       +---------------------------+

#3377

From: Shlomi Fish <shlomif@...>
Date: Thu Aug 28, 2003 2:55 pm
Subject: Vim vi repellare licet

shlomif3

I found out that "Vim vi repellare licet" is a known Latin phrase. It
means:

It is allowed (licet) to respond (repellare) with force (vim) to force
(vi).

And it contains the name of everyone's favourite neophyte editor and a
full-blown and popular clone of it.

:-)

Regards,

	 Shlomi Fish



----------------------------------------------------------------------
Shlomi Fish        shlomif@...
Home Page:         http://t2.technion.ac.il/~shlomif/

There's no point in keeping an idea to yourself since there's a 10 to 1
chance that somebody already has it and will share it before you.

#3378

From: "Tzahi Fadida" <Tzahi_ML@...>
Date: Thu Sep 4, 2003 7:09 pm
Subject: israeli java mailing list.

Tzahi_ML@...

can someone recommend an active israeli java mailing list/s, if there is one...


* - * - *
Tzahi Fadida
MSc Student
Information System Engineering Area
Faculty of Industrial Engineering & Management
Technion - Israel Institute of Technology
Technion City, Haifa, Israel 32000
Email TzahiFadida@...
Technion Email: Tzahi@...
* - * - * - * - * - * - * - * - * - *

WARNING TO SPAMMERS:  see at http://members.lycos.co.uk/my2nis/spamwarning.html

#3379

From: Alexander Maryanovsky <msasha@...>
Date: Thu Sep 4, 2003 7:21 pm
Subject: Re: israeli java mailing list.

sasha_mapa

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/java-desk/


Alexander Maryanovsky.

At 21:09 04.09.2003 +0200, Tzahi Fadida wrote:
>can someone recommend an active israeli java mailing list/s, if there is
>one...
>
>
>* - * - *
>Tzahi Fadida
>MSc Student
>Information System Engineering Area
>Faculty of Industrial Engineering & Management
>Technion - Israel Institute of Technology
>Technion City, Haifa, Israel 32000
>Email TzahiFadida@...
>Technion Email: Tzahi@...
>* - * - * - * - * - * - * - * - * - *
>
>WARNING TO SPAMMERS:  see at
>http://members.lycos.co.uk/my2nis/spamwarning.html
>
>
>
>To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
>hackers-il-unsubscribe@egroups.com
>
>
>
>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

#3380

From: Shlomi Fish <shlomif@...>
Date: Sat Sep 6, 2003 7:07 pm
Subject: New Mailing List for Translation of Technical Documents

shlomif3

Hi!

I started out a new mailing list for the translation of technical or
semi-technical (mostly Linux-related) documents:

To subscribe, send an empty message to:

translation-subscribe@...

Periodic announcements of the progress of active translations of documents
will be posted there, and hopefully they will spark a good discussion,
input and corrections.

Regards,

	 Shlomi Fish



----------------------------------------------------------------------
Shlomi Fish        shlomif@...
Home Page:         http://t2.technion.ac.il/~shlomif/

There's no point in keeping an idea to yourself since there's a 10 to 1
chance that somebody already has it and will share it before you.


=================================================================
To unsubscribe, send mail to linux-il-request@... with
the word "unsubscribe" in the message body, e.g., run the command
echo unsubscribe | mail linux-il-request@...

#3381

From: Shlomi Fish <shlomif@...>
Date: Sat Sep 6, 2003 7:07 pm
Subject: New Mailing List for Translation of Technical Documents

shlomif3

Hi!

I started out a new mailing list for the translation of technical or
semi-technical (mostly Linux-related) documents:

To subscribe, send an empty message to:

translation-subscribe@...

Periodic announcements of the progress of active translations of documents
will be posted there, and hopefully they will spark a good discussion,
input and corrections.

Regards,

	 Shlomi Fish



----------------------------------------------------------------------
Shlomi Fish        shlomif@...
Home Page:         http://t2.technion.ac.il/~shlomif/

There's no point in keeping an idea to yourself since there's a 10 to 1
chance that somebody already has it and will share it before you.

#3382

From: "Nadav Har'El" <nyh@...>
Date: Sun Sep 7, 2003 8:56 am
Subject: Book Review: The Age of Spiritual Machines

nyharel