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Science and Religion: Compatible or Incompatible?   Message List  
Reply | Forward Message #17343 of 20051 |
Re: [human-ethology] Re: Science and Religion: Compatible or Incompatible?

Catia Caeiro: In this topic, I would recommend everyone to read the (very popular, I think) book of the ethologist Richard Dawkins - "God Delusion". I've just finished it and it's really amazing! If I ever doubted that I was an atheist, now I'm completely convinced.
 
Jay R. Feierman: I'm glad you brought that up. I also have read that book. You could also read Robert Hinde's book, Why Gods Persist: A Scientific Approach to Religion. Routledge, 1999. Robert Hinde is much more of an ethologist than Richard Dawkins. Hinde is Professor Emeritus of Zoology at Cambridge. In my opinion Richard Dawkins prematurely dismissed religion's value by making an issue over whether or not religious beliefs are true. A belief can be defined in many ways. The two ways that I find most useful are (1) "that which is held to be true" and (2) "a unit of information (that which is necessary to make decisions) that biases behavior in a predictable way." Neither of these two definitions of (religious) belief require the belief to be true. In the first definition one only has to hold the belief to be true (whether it is or not) and in the second definition the belief just needs to bias one's behavior in a predictable way.
 
Most religious beliefs are counter-intuitive and counterfactual, which makes them very good in-group markers that are not dependent on morphological features or on vocal features (accent or dialect). As a result, religion may have been one of the factors that segregated human populations into in-groups and out-groups, as the usual course of events is for a human group to grow > split > culturally differentiate > compete.
 
In the three volume book, Where God and Science Meet, edited by Patrick McNamara (Praeger, 2006), in Chapter 1 Steven Pinker says, ". . . religious psychology is a by-product of many parts of the mind that evolved for other purposes" (p. 8). This so called by-product interpretation of religion is supportive of Richard Dawkins idea that religion is some type of infectious mimetic disease that infects human minds.
 
However, there is another perspective, which is that "contrary to the more intuitive (and more secular) proposition that religious psychology evolved as a by-product of the mind, believing in God may have been what contributed to the creation of many parts of the human mind. Some would call that a 'gift (p. 80).'" The basis for this argument is beyond what can be done in a short posting. However, it is I who wrote that in The Biology of Religious Behavior: The Evolutionary Origins of Faith and Religion, which was just released a few days ago by Praeger http://www.abc-clio.com/products/overview.aspx?productid=111248&viewid=1.
 
There are lots of data that show that in pluralistic industrialized societies that engaging in religious behavior correlates positively with lifespan, health, number of living children, education level, absence of arrests and incarcerations, absence of alcohol and drug abuse and dependence, absence of suicide and homicide, etc. etc. The secular societies of northern Europe are not even reproducing at the maintenance rate, which has caused Rodney Stark (a sociologist of religion) to say in his latest book, Discovering God, that in 50 to 100 years Europe will be predominantly Muslim and China will be predominantly Christian. You can also look at the same type of statistics for the State of Utah in the USA, which the majority of inhabitants are member of the Church of Jesus Christ and the Latter Day Saints (Mormons). The data are striking that the Mormons of Utah excel in all of the variables listed above compared to the non-Mormon population living in Utah. In addition, up to the present religion has been a species-characteristic trait of Homo sapiens. In my opinion it was premature of Richard Dawkins to dismiss religion's value to human beings before religion is completely understood, which it is not.

 
 
 
 
 


Sat Jul 4, 2009 4:19 am

jrfeier
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Taken from http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2009/06/23/science-and-religion-are-not-compatible/ Blogs / Cosmic Variance « The Principle of...
Jay R. Feierman
jrfeier
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Jul 3, 2009
7:56 pm

In this topic, I would recommend everyone to read the (very popular, I think) book of the ethologist Richard Dawkins - "God Delusion". I've just finished it...
Cátia Caeiro
catiafccaeiro
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Jul 4, 2009
3:23 am

Cátia: In this topic, I would recommend everyone to read the (very popular, I think) book of the ethologist Richard Dawkins - "God Delusion". I've just...
jamesfrancisd
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Jul 4, 2009
1:43 pm

Catia, Many states in America have what are called "Blue Laws," which restrict business activity on Sundays. The origin of these laws was based on...
Sonny Williams
clarencearth...
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Jul 4, 2009
2:41 pm

Catia Caeiro: In this topic, I would recommend everyone to read the (very popular, I think) book of the ethologist Richard Dawkins - "God Delusion". I've just...
Jay R. Feierman
jrfeier
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Jul 4, 2009
4:24 am

I just read some posts on the topic: "Science and Religion: Compatible or Incompatible?" I would just like to say that I am glad that we can have this...
jamesbond_007_19
jamesbond_00...
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Jul 7, 2009
1:54 pm

Thanks Ron, I agree - we have to hand it to Jay for keeping up such an interesting list. It is also nice to see Cátia and others are now posting. The topic of...
jamesfrancisd
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Jul 7, 2009
4:35 pm

Thank you for your kind post :) Although I consider myself an atheist, I think there will always be space to discuss religion and beliefs. I also think that...
Cátia Caeiro
catiafccaeiro
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Jul 8, 2009
2:35 am

James Francis Doyle: As to religion and science being incompatible I think that my suggestion -god exists as a belief- is twist that ought to be considered as...
Jay R. Feierman
jrfeier
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Jul 13, 2009
4:13 am

James Francis Doyle: As to religion and science being incompatible I think that my suggestion –god exists as a belief- is twist that ought to be considered...
jamesfrancisd
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Jul 13, 2009
7:42 pm

Jay R. Feierman: If a belief is defined as "a unit of information (that which is necessary to make decisions) that biases behavior (~ movement) in a...
Jay R. Feierman
jrfeier
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Jul 13, 2009
11:56 pm

Jay R. Feierman: If a belief is defined as "a unit of information (that which is necessary to make decisions) that biases behavior (~ movement) in a...
jamesfrancisd
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Jul 14, 2009
2:51 am

Jay R. Feierman [OLD]: The idea that "God is in the human brain" was proposed a number of years ago by one of my mentors, Arnold J. Mandell, who wrote a...
Jay R. Feierman
jrfeier
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Jul 14, 2009
12:16 am

Jay R. Feierman [OLD]: The idea that "God is in the human brain" was proposed a number of years ago by one of my mentors, Arnold J. Mandell, who wrote a...
jamesfrancisd
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Jul 14, 2009
2:45 am

Jay R. Feierman: There is compelling evidence that "information" is structural/physical/thermodynamic, which makes a belief structural/physical/thermodynamic...
Jay R. Feierman
jrfeier
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Jul 14, 2009
12:16 am

Jay R. Feierman: There is compelling evidence that "information" is structural/physical/thermodynamic, which makes a belief structural/physical/thermodynamic...
jamesfrancisd
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Jul 14, 2009
12:08 pm

James Francis Doyle: I would not be arguing that you have attributed a truth-value to the belief, just that you have the belief otherwise you could not use it...
Jay R. Feierman
jrfeier
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Jul 15, 2009
2:50 am

James Francis Doyle: I would not be arguing that you have attributed a truth-value to the belief, just that you have the belief otherwise you could not use it...
jamesfrancisd
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Jul 15, 2009
1:26 pm

Well, I really liked Richard Dawkins book, but I don't agree with everything he says on it. He is too radical about religion, that's for sure. And I also...
Cátia Caeiro
catiafccaeiro
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Jul 7, 2009
11:41 pm

Catia Caeiro: Religion tends to join people from the same religion and tends to segregate people from different religions of their own (as you mentioned). Jay...
Jay R. Feierman
jrfeier
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Jul 8, 2009
5:34 am

(Note to moderator: Jay, please advise me on compliance with ISHE listserv rules regarding not posting anything political regarding this message I am posting...
jamesbond_007_19
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Jul 8, 2009
1:56 pm

Ron Michael Yu: Jay, first of all, why do you come to the conclusion that: "...I doubt that world peace will come about by the secularization of the world, at...
Jay R. Feierman
jrfeier
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Jul 8, 2009
3:25 pm

Dear Jay (also Catia and Doyle), When you said, "...I doubt that world peace will come about by the secularization of the world, at least not in the next 100...
jamesbond_007_19
jamesbond_00...
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Aug 6, 2009
1:40 pm
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