Please don't take my comments as an aversion on admins...God knows, you
guys have a tough enough job. Our IT department fights this battle
daily. The filters currently being used have three levels. We recently
went to the most stringent, Level 3, and it squished 99%+ of our spam.
It was wonderful!

However, we found that it blocked quite a few legitimate emails. And,
when your very top customers can't get through to you, boy do you hear
about it! So, we went back to Level 2 and we're constantly straining
spam on an organization wide basis. If you multiply the time per person
annually, it's a tremendous drain on resources.

But I don't think anyone in our organization blames our IT folks for
this (we have better stuff to blame them for :-)...we know they're
fighting an uphill battle.

I guess our best hope is that, within another year or so, everyone will
own a p*n*s enlargement device, which will cut spam by at least 20% when
no more sales are made. :-)



-----Original Message-----
From: chales@... [mailto:chales@...]
Sent: Friday, June 06, 2003 11:47 PM
To: Bill Wilson; i_did_not_get_my_email@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [i_did_not_get_my_email] Critics set up anti-SPEWS Web site

I'm going to take a purist standpoint... something I rarely do, but
hear
me out, as I do justify my position.
Spam has been compared to a disease many times before, being called
an
epidemic for example is not uncommon. Well, what if we treated real
diseases like we're treating the spam problem? Blacklists and filters
are
medications, not to treat the disease, (spammers themselves) but rather
to
treat the symptoms. (spam appearing in inboxes) So we're treating a
disease
that's getting progressively worse by applying stronger medications to
mask
the symptoms. That's all. Filters and blacklists just hide the problem
from you by trying to make sure you don't receive the junk.
Doctors don't treat patients this way (or shouldn't, but they have)
because it's counter productive. If your body (the internet) cannot
fight
the disease, you have to give it help. Spam isn't really a technical
issue,
because the protocols are there to allow easy mail delivery... it's a
social
one of people using those trusting mechanisms for their own personal
gains.
The internet itself has no facility to combat social problems... we're
techies, not social scientists.
You're saying we should all use bayesian filters, (the next best
medication) because they work better than content filters, spam
databases
and blacklists. (the previous medications) Guess what, the new
medication
has side effects... it makes mail incredibly slow, or even bounces mail
(because of the processing required) if done on the server side, or
sometimes your mail will bounce because you didn't use the filter often
enough (from the client side) to keep your mailbox from filling up with
spam. It is stronger medicine, with everything that goes along with
that,
and the side effects are too alarming for most admins, so they stick
with
what works reasonably well, but doesn't cause the horrible side effects.
Spews is strong medicine compared with the SBL, relay and proxy
lists
have virtually no side effects, but block a relatively small % of spam.
When are the side effects worth the stronger medicine? When the problem
gets bad enough... but wouldn't it be better just to go after the bug
causing the disease and stop taking all those medications? That way you
wouldn't have the side effects anymore.
This is my basic philosophy for why attacking the methods admins use
is
misguided. You're getting mad because of the side effects of a medicine
being used to control the symptoms of a problem while admins everywhere
are
waiting for a cure. It's like blaming the pharmacutical companies
making
the HIV cocktail which keeps the virus under control, because the
cocktail
has side effects, and isn't preventing the spread of HIV.
Do you understand why I'm confused as to people's hostile attitudes
toward admins? Sysadmins are (generally)experts in the field of
internet
connected systems. We do everything in our powers to keep your internet
experience operating... and get told daily by people who don't really
understand the scope of the problem that we're not doing enough, and why
don't you do this instead... It's been tried... if it worked and was
feisable, it would already be implemented very widely. For now, if you
think bayesian filters work great, use them, but don't expect that
everyone
will, and especially not server admins, because it's just too costly for
most companies (even AOL!) to use them on the server side.
I'd love a miracle cure for SPAM, but I'd also love one for HIV,
Cancer,
Telemarketers, Parkinsons disease, etc... the cures are NEVER immediate
in
coming, so please don't blame those who are basically just doing there
best
to hold the fort until the answer arrives.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Bill Wilson" <iiaavu@...>
To: "'Armando WarpKat Ortiz'" <warpkat@...>
Cc: <coach@...>; <i_did_not_get_my_email@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, June 03, 2003 7:27 PM
Subject: RE: [i_did_not_get_my_email] Critics set up anti-SPEWS Web site


> I'm not suggesting that at all AND I'm not "whining." There are much
> more effective ways to block spam than server filtering and blackhole
> lists. Check out this article, particularly the Bayesian filters
> advocated by Paul Graham...they work right now and they "learn" how to
> be more and more effective:
>
> http://vu.iiaa.net/Lib/Tec/TI/Email/WilsonSpamCure.htm
>
> At least that's my opinion and I could be wrong.
>
> - Bill
>
> P.S. But we all know that the glut of spam won't subside until people
> stop patronizing the products and services being hawked by these
folks.
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Armando WarpKat Ortiz [mailto:warpkat@...]
> Sent: Tuesday, June 03, 2003 11:20 AM
> To: iiaavu@...
> Cc: coach@...; i_did_not_get_my_email@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: RE: [i_did_not_get_my_email] Critics set up anti-SPEWS Web
site
>
> Then what do you suggest? That we ignore the problem? I applaud the
> efforts of SBL lists only because the people that operate them
actually
> TRY to address the problem rather than whine about it.
>
> If marketers had any clue about HOW to market to begin with without
> resorting to guerilla marketing and bulk email that clogs inboxes,
we'd
> be in a better position to say that they weren't needed, however,
since
> marketers only think of $$$, well, then this blows the whole arguement
> away that email is going to hell because of the SBL, now doesn't it?
>
> > Blackhole lists are a barbaric, biased, mistake-prone, and
inefficient
> way
> > to control spam. Worse.they too often hurt the innocent.
> >
> > Bill Wilson, CPCU, ARM, AIM, AAM
> > Director
> > IIABA's Virtual University
> > <http://vu.iiaa.net> http://vu.iiaa.net
> >
> > Be sure to subscribe to our FREE bi-weekly email newsletter. Over
> 12,000
> > subscribers can't be wrong!
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Lisa Micklin [mailto:coach@...]
> > Sent: Thursday, May 29, 2003 6:10 PM
> > To: i_did_not_get_my_email@yahoogroups.com
> > Subject: RE: [i_did_not_get_my_email] Critics set up anti-SPEWS Web
> site
> >
> > thanks justin for posting this....
> > i just had my ip blacklisted by spews.org, cuz of a spammer on the
> same ip
> > block. i now have to move my entire server, assign new ips, change
> name
> > servers, and inform my thousands of users of potential down time
while
> all
> > of this is happening.
> >
> > lovely, eh?
> >
> > lisa micklin
> > www.ezezine.com
> >
> >
> >
> >
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