The BBC's New Media & Technology division is looking for a Senior
Information Architect to join a team of ten IAs in a wider User
Experience Design team.

The role will be initially assigned to the content management group
which is deploying a content management system to the BBC's websites,
interactive TV services and mobile applications. The content
management group has a challenging roadmap and this role will play a
key part in their plans. You will need to be passionate about the
benefits of structured content and be able to pass on this enthusiasm
to others throughout the BBC.


Closes: 31st October

For more information:
https://jobs.bbc.co.uk/jobportal/search/vacancy.aspx?id=10359


Email:  recruitment@...

Hi.

I just joined this group.  I am co-Web Producer for Library
Technology NOW, located at http://www.librarytechnologynow.org, and
we are researching CMS systems to use for our project.  We are
utilizing Synaptica's Thesaurus Management System, generously
donated to the project by the Synapse Corporation, and will need a
CMS that makes use of the ZThes XML.  We hope to tie our thesaurus
to our CMS on the backend and Synaptica uses the ZThes XML schema.
What CMS is the best fit?

TIA for the feedback.

Kindest Regards,
A day without laughter is a day wasted
North Texas Regional Library System, Inc
Adam Wright
Manager of Services
wrighta_98@...
6320 Southwest Blvd, Suite 101
Fort Worth, Tx 76109
tel: 817-377-4440
fax: 817-377-8020
mobile: 817-343-2459

I am pleased to be part of the formation of the first association for
content management professionals, which is making its official launch
today. Our website is brand-new and still in its infancy, but we have
high hopes that this organization will provide much-needed community,
awareness and standards for the people and practices of content
management.

Please feel free to distribute this widely.

And if you have any questions, please don't hesitate to contact me
with questions.

Best,

Hilary Marsh

P.S. Apologies if you receive multiple copies of this announcement.



NEW CONTENT MANAGEMENT PROFESSIONALS ORGANIZATION
ANNOUNCED TODAY

CM Professionals: A Content Management Community of Practice

                                  Media Contact:
                                  Bob Doyle, executive director
                                  +1 617 876 5678
                                  media@...
                                  http://www.cmprofessionals.org


Silver Spring MD, September 20, 2004. A group of thirty content
management experts from around the world has announced the
formation of CM Professionals, an international community of
content management professionals whose purpose is to further
best practices based on shared experiences of experts and peers.

CM Pros offers a members-only mailing list, a collaborative
website,discussion forums, issue-oriented group blogs, knowledge
wikis, syndicated web services, a job board, a professional
directory and a calendar of face-to-face meeting opportunities.

CM Pros president Bob Boiko, author of the "Content Management
Bible" and director of the University of Washington iSchool
CMS Evaluation Lab, says, "As the first group of its kind, CM Pros
is a membership organization that enables content management
practitioners to share information, practices and strategies.
This organization is needed to help move the discipline of
content management forward, helping practitioners avoid the
pitfalls and costly mistakes made by others."

"We also envision a variety of members-only services, including
a newsletter, professional discounts and summit-type gatherings
devoid of marketing hype," says Tony Byrne, CMS Watch editor and
CM Pros treasurer.

"CM Pros will raise awareness of content management as an essential
discipline that builds value, both financial and human, for
companies and organizations," says Ann Rockley, author of "Managing
Enterprise Content" and secretary of CM Pros.

CM Professionals will hold its first CM Summit, in conjunction with
the Gilbane Conference on Content Management Technologies, Tuesday,
November 30, 2004 in Boston, Mass. (U.S.A.).

Information on the Gilbane Conference on Content Management
Technologies: http://www.gilbane.com/CM_conference_Boston_04.html.

As CM Professionals grows, Boiko says, "We will work closely with
other organizations that share many of our goals. We will coordinate
our thinking about recommended standards for best practices with these
organizations, and we hope to work closely with graduate schools that
are training the next generation of information professionals."

ABOUT CM PROFESSIONALS
CM Professionals is the premier community of practice for people
involved with managing content for electronic and other media.
CM Professionals collects, develops, organizes and provides access
to knowledge about content management through online resources, email
interaction and face-to-face summits. By identifying, refining,
publicizing and advocating for respected content management practices
and models, CM Professionals educates and fosters interaction among
content management professionals, enterprise leadership, product
vendors and university educators. For more information, please visit
the website: http://www.cmprofessionals.org.


                                     ###



--
Hilary Marsh
president, content company inc
plan  *  create  *  manage
http://www.contentcompany.biz
708.217.3922

Monthly newsletter with tips and tricks for keeping your website
fresh, relevant and strategic -- subscribe at
http://www.contentcompany.biz, or send a message to
contentnews@... with the word "subscribe" in the
subject line.

New email list for online content managers:
http://lists.cms-forum.org/mailman/listinfo/contentmanagers

Hi Todd,

I have redesigned several corporate sites and incorporated CMS systems when
doing this. I have several questions for you.  By migration are you literaly
trying to convert a non CMS site into a CMS site?  How wide is your scope -
is there a clear area you have control over or do you have to provide a
frame work for other related companies to work with (or offices in other
countries)?  Are you an information architect and familair with user cented
design and if so how much of the UCD stuff have you done already?  Conversly
if you havnt do you want general advice about best methods here?

Also - how big is the project. All enterprise companies think their site is
big or huge (or needs to be) when often the site or potential site is much
simpler and smaller than they think. How many pages, roughly, is the site?
What is the rough functionality/content split. Also how 'siloed' is the site
- that is how entrenched in business devisions is the site (does it reflect
the company structure?)

I understand that the politics of the situation you are in may be fairly
complex. Politics is often a large percent of any project for an enterprise
level client. What kind of resources and structure do you currently have for
the project?

I know this may appear like a lot of questions but the ideal method of site
migration change according to these factors. I'm sure I and others can help
you better with a bit more background infomation, avoiding specifics of
course for client confidentiality reasons.

Cheers

Stewart Dean   -   User Experience Architect
www.empathydigital.com

>From: "Todd ONeill" <toneill@...>
>Reply-To: ia-cms-l@yahoogroups.com
>To: ia-cms-l@yahoogroups.com
>Subject: [ia-cms-l] Migration projects
>Date: Wed, 14 Apr 2004 12:16:11 -0000
>
>Hello all. My first time posting here.
>
>We are about to start our first migration project. The first project
>is a big hairball with enterprise reqs. definition, system
>implementation and first content migration. We've done validation
>and proof of concept projects, so we have taken baby steps to get
>here, but now we're here.
>
>Any resources, advice, etc. you can offer regarding migrating
>content to the system (Documentum) is appreciated. Haven't checke
>dht standard references yet (Boiko, Rockley, etc.); I'm coming to
>you first. No pressure.
>
>Thanks!
>Todd O'Neill
>Web Producer
>USAA

Hello all. My first time posting here.

We are about to start our first migration project. The first project
is a big hairball with enterprise reqs. definition, system
implementation and first content migration. We've done validation
and proof of concept projects, so we have taken baby steps to get
here, but now we're here.

Any resources, advice, etc. you can offer regarding migrating
content to the system (Documentum) is appreciated. Haven't checke
dht standard references yet (Boiko, Rockley, etc.); I'm coming to
you first. No pressure.

Thanks!
Todd O'Neill
Web Producer
USAA

(excuse the cross-postings)

All those going to the Summit,

As part of the IA Summit this year we have set aside time
to do Bird of a Feather (BoF) Sessions; a time where we can
informally talk about and show each other the work that we
are doing in our organisations.

The three BoFs are:
* Controlled vocabularies
* Content management systems
* IA tools and deliverables

These sessions are being held on Saturday between 4.45 -
5.30pm.

If you would like to come along, please bring along
yourself, any deliverables and your experiences to share
with your fellow IAs.

The leaders for each of the sessions are:
* CVs - Livia Labate (liv@...) and Donna M.
Fritzsche
* CMS - Mags Hanley (mairead@...) and Donna Maurer
* IA deliverables - Peter Boersma (peter.boersma@...)
and Chiara Fox

Please feel free to email them if you have any queries,
would like to express interest or provide a description of
the type of deliverable you will bring (optional),
and whether you need AV support (if available) to show it
to the group.


Thanks,

Mags






Does your mail provider give you FREE antivirus protection?
Get Yahoo! Mail http://uk.mail.yahoo.com

I just had an article published on Boxes and Arrows
that might be of interest:

Managing the Complexity of Content Management
<http://www.boxesandarrows.com/archives/managing_the_complexity_of_content_manag\
ement.php>

"...Because of the high planning, purchasing, and
design costs, there is a need to effectively manage
the complexity of CMS projects. I've seen some
organizations do this well and others not so well.
Here are ten lessons in managing complexity gleaned
from real-world, successful CMS projects..."



=====
Victor Lombardi
http://www.noisebetweenstations.com/

__________________________________
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http://taxes.yahoo.com/filing.html

I totally agree... but I have to say, I've joined just about every Yahoo group that has anything
to do with CMS, and there is almost no discussion like this.  There is no community, as is stated
here.  The only posts I see are for product issues, and recruiting.  (This is the first post I've
seen to this group since I signed up)

What I believe tends to happen is that only professors and paid pontificators have the time to sit
around and think of the theories behind CMS.  Those that are involved in implementing a CMS don't
have time (or have not been budgeted any time) for thinking about the best way to implement.  It's
all about "pick the product and install it".  As is the case for just about all technology
projects, it's "act fast and keep costs low... we don't have time for much 'analysis' or
'touchy-feeely' work".  So there are no content audits, or process audits, or strategic audits.
No one has time/money/patience to do it "the right way"... and thus no one will contribute to any
discussion like this except for some professors and the few of us that care enough to chime in
after we get home from work :)

Too bad really... cause I'd love a deep discussion on the subject.


--- mikejaixen <mikejaixen@...> wrote:
> Lou posted a great entry in is Bloug about CMS...
>
> http://louisrosenfeld.com/home/bloug_archive/000225.html
>
> Any other thoughts?
>
>
>


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To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
ia-cms-l-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com



Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.

I totally agree... but I have to say, I've joined just about every Yahoo group
that has anything
to do with CMS, and there is almost no discussion like this.  There is no
community, as is stated
here.  The only posts I see are for product issues, and recruiting.  (This is
the first post I've
seen to this group since I signed up)

What I believe tends to happen is that only professors and paid pontificators
have the time to sit
around and think of the theories behind CMS.  Those that are involved in
implementing a CMS don't
have time (or have not been budgeted any time) for thinking about the best way
to implement.  It's
all about "pick the product and install it".  As is the case for just about all
technology
projects, it's "act fast and keep costs low... we don't have time for much
'analysis' or
'touchy-feeely' work".  So there are no content audits, or process audits, or
strategic audits.
No one has time/money/patience to do it "the right way"... and thus no one will
contribute to any
discussion like this except for some professors and the few of us that care
enough to chime in
after we get home from work :)

Too bad really... cause I'd love a deep discussion on the subject.


--- mikejaixen <mikejaixen@...> wrote:
> Lou posted a great entry in is Bloug about CMS...
>
> http://louisrosenfeld.com/home/bloug_archive/000225.html
>
> Any other thoughts?
>
>
>


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Protect your identity with Yahoo! Mail AddressGuard
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Lou posted a great entry in is Bloug about CMS...

http://louisrosenfeld.com/home/bloug_archive/000225.html

Any other thoughts?

There is a perception in the industry that content management systems
(CMS) can reduce the number of web professionals needed to produce
web sites.   I believe that CMS helps enforce consistency and
governs look and feel, but knowledgeable skilled web professionals
are still needed to work with the content to produce the sites.  A
CMS shifts the required skills from manual HTML coders to higher
level skills such as information architects taxonomy experts,
content developers and editors.

To make a programming analogy, an Integrated Development Environment
(IDE) still requires programmers to produce applications with it; a
CMS still requires web professionals to create an easy-to-use
website.

Can someone provide links to research that demonstrate whether CMS
reduces the number of people needed in a company to produce web
sites, or whether CMS simply shifts the skill base?

Thanks.

I'll summarize replies and post to this list.

Scott B
Raleigh, NC

The AIfIA IA Education Curriculum initiative has
compiled a list of IA courses and programs. You can
download them from our site:
<http://aifia.org/pg/schools_teaching_ia.php>


I'd like to thank the volunteers that contributed
their time to this effort. You can learn more about
the initiative at:
<http://aifia.org/pg/curriculum.php>


Victor

=====
Victor Lombardi
http://www.noisebetweenstations.com

----- Notice from Moderator -----
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that were broken due to wrapping lines so I exchanged them for
tinyurl substitutes that lead to actual articles or site
departments, and also annotated a little to not let the links
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If this is a problem - contact me directly at
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--------- End of notice ---------

> ----- Original Message -----
> From: melanie.kendell
>
> Hi Bev
>
> Can you (or anyone else) point me at some credible examples of ROI.

As a general guide, have a look at:

- CMS Watch Featured Topic: Finding the ROI in Content Management
   [ http://tinyurl.com/qa45 ]

and found this which may be useful:

- Bridgeline Software: The Right Content Management System Will
   Improve Your Web ROI
   [ http://tinyurl.com/qa4n | PDF ]

You need to apply some thinking to figure out what your business values and
examine possible savings in those areas.

What I did with one system was look at the tortuous workflow and steps that
could be eliminateD, especially in multi-platform output. An easy sell from
there on in as it is clear to the beanies (in a simple view at least) that
less and more focussed steps = shorter time = more output.

It's worth pointing out that better content management and reuse alone has
ROI. Easier to find stuff, reuse stuff and reference stuff. It's like having
a properly managed library or a set of out of order index cards.

Also have a look at case studies:

- apple.com: BBC Goes Online
   WebObjects Delivers for International News Organization
   [ http://tinyurl.com/qa5n ]
(avoid the the marketing hype...)

- Box UK: Teacher Resource Exchange Case Study
   [ http://tinyurl.com/qa5p ]
- Microsoft: Case Studies
   [ http://tinyurl.com/qa5u ]

If I come across anything dedicated to ROI on CMS projects in general then
I'll post it.

Some other points.

Make sure they understand that ROI is not always financial...

Summary:
- ROI is a metric that favours cost-saving projects
- ROI can't calculate valuable, intangible qualities - One metric
   can't characterise the entire value of a project
- IT will most likely be charged for project costs - it may be difficult
   for IT to charge a project cost to a particular department

Alternatives and additions:
- Payback
- Net present value
- Total cost of ownership

zdnet.com.au:
- An ROI primer
   [ http://tinyurl.com/qa57 ]
- The limitations of calculating ROI for IT projects
   [ http://tinyurl.com/qa50 ]

Make sure you read this (and similar) to view some pitfalls...
make sure the beanies don't...

- atnewyork.com: Study: Content Management Tools Fail
   [ http://tinyurl.com/qa5c ]

Cheers,

jod

Hi Bev

Can you (or anyone else) point me at some credible examples of ROI.

I'm very close indeed to being able to put all my hard won knowledge
into practice - the developers can see the benefits, the product
managers can see the benefits, all I need to do now is convince the
bean counters and recruit a project champion and we should be
underway.

It shouldn't be that hard a sell
- we translate to many different languages
- we have similar products with content overlap
- we are looking to single-source paper, help, and web content
- we have remote writers and remote reviewers
- and previously created content is notorious for disappearing into
   black holes of obscurity never to be found again.

One thing I'm trying to do is make it clear that it's not as simple as
buying the software and away we go - I'm not sure I'm succeeding in
this regard. My clients have gone from using a PDF file (without TOC
or hyperlinks) as online help six weeks ago to why are we bothering to
buy a HATT for the release in 2 weeks time when we're going to have a
CMS!

-Melanie Kendell

----- Original Message -----
From: Bev Corwin <bevcorwin@...>
Date: Wednesday, October 1, 2003 3:20 am
Subject: Re: [ia-cms-l] What do they do well - and what do they still need to do

> Dear IA-CMS,
>
> This is especially true when managing multilingual content. Such
> management can cut costs by as much as 60% if well integrated into a
> multilingual content environment.
>
> Bev
>
>> For example, being able to manage content as chunks (topics are
>> about the right level of granularity) as well as being able to
>> amalgamate those chunks into "documents" (which might be a
>> traditional paper-based document, online help system, website, or
>> whatever).
>
>> Conditional text within each chunk that gets included/excluded
>> depending on the "document" being created is also required to be
>> able to re-target a chunk for a different document (although this
>> should not be over-used or it becomes its own management nightmare).
>>
>> -Melanie Kendell

Dear IA-CMS,

This is especially true when managing multilingual
content.  Such management can cut costs by as much as
60% if well integrated into a multilingual content
environment.

Bev

> For example, being able to manage content as chunks
> (topics are about
> the right level of granularity) as well as being
> able to amalgamate
> those chunks into "documents" (which might be a
> traditional
> paper-based document, online help system, website,
> or whatever).
> Conditional text within each chunk that gets
> included/excluded
> depending on the "document" being created is also
> required to be able
> to re-target a chunk for a different document
> (although this should
> not be over-used or it becomes its own management
> nightmare).

> -Melanie Kendell

Rohn Jay Miller wrote
> It's when CMS companies start selling "author-once,
> publish many times" systems that I storm indignantly
> from the room. Quark, Net Objects, Broadvision and
> others have tried to sell this snake oil at various
> times.

I agree that buying a system will not automatically make it possible
to "author-once, publish many times" but if your content architecture
is designed appropriately you would want a system that helps you
manage it.

For example, being able to manage content as chunks (topics are about
the right level of granularity) as well as being able to amalgamate
those chunks into "documents" (which might be a traditional
paper-based document, online help system, website, or whatever).
Conditional text within each chunk that gets included/excluded
depending on the "document" being created is also required to be able
to re-target a chunk for a different document (although this should
not be over-used or it becomes its own management nightmare).

There must also be some good features for finding content, and not
just good search tools. The system should allow content to be
categorised for findability rather than being tied to a document
structure. Previewing the contents of chunks (including visual clues
to mark conditional text) should also be very easy.

> I've seen many clients spend way too much time, money
> and thought trying to implement big, single source CMS
> where effort is 4X improvement.

This is true of most large systems (look at ERPs) and is largely due
to people looking at the you beaut "features" they can get rather than
analysing their requirements and then finding a system that addresses
those requirements.

Unfortunately, content management means so many different things to
different people it is very easy to end up with the wrong system if
the requirements are poorly defined. How many times do you see
questions asking about which CMS someone should get where the
requirements are vague or non-existent? It doesn't help that vendors
often don't have a clear vision about which types of problems they are
aiming to solve - they try to be all things to all people.

I would rather see some specialisation in the industry so those CMS
that manage content in terms of workflow and publishing for a website
are somehow identified as different from those CMS that manage content
in terms of single-sourcing for different output targets. That way I
could cut out the 90% of systems that don't meet my requirements as I
fall into the latter category.

-Melanie Kendell

<<Message: 2
    Date: Sat, 27 Sep 2003 18:01:55 -0700 (PDT)
    From: Bev Corwin <bevcorwin@...>
Subject: Re: Re: CMS:  What do they do well - and what
do they still need to do

<<Yes, I agree, like single source management, etc.
and as many integrated output formats as possible.>>

Bev: If you mean the ability to manage output content
into source technical formats, such as .GIF, .JPG,
.TXT, or integrated source formats as .HTML, .JSP,
(especially with metadata) I agree.

It's when CMS companies start selling "author-once,
publish many times" systems that I storm indignantly
from the room. Quark, Net Objects, Broadvision and
others have tried to sell this snake oil at various
times.

I've seen many clients spend way too much time, money
and thought trying to implement big, single source CMS
where effort is 4X improvement.  This is an idea which
is inherently bass-ackwards.  (I honestly think that
for many sites the best CMS is two part-time college
students working the late shift.)

(Rohn Jay Miller)

=====
Rohn Jay Miller
1801 Dupnt Avenue South
Minneapolis, MN 55403
(612) 374-4101
rmiller@...

Yes, I agree, like single source management, etc. and
as many integrated output formats as possible.

Bev

--- "melanie.kendell" <melanie.kendell@...>
wrote:
> In my vision a content management system manages
> content for several
> delivery methods, not just websites. I agree a *web*
> content
> management system should manage content at both page
> and site level.


=====
Bev Corwin
PO Box 77614
Seattle, WA 98177 USA
Telephone: 206.728.2232
Facsimile: 206.728.2262
Mobile: 206.390.0743
eMail: bevcorwin@...

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Dear Ronn,

I agree, CMS are often limited, and seems as they are
dropping like flies lately.  Vassont has some of the
features you mention.  Also have heard good things
about Documentum.  Seems like a slow time though, not
much going on as there once was.

Bev

--- Rohn Jay Miller <rohnjay@...> wrote:
> I think a root of the problem is that all the
> venture
> cash was burned up two years ago and companies like
> Interwoven and Vingette are holding on by the
> fingernails.  (Interwoven stock has fallen from $65
> a
> share three years ago to $3 a share now---which
> means
> it was a $7 billion company and now it's a $350
> million company)


=====
Bev Corwin
PO Box 77614
Seattle, WA 98177 USA
Telephone: 206.728.2232
Facsimile: 206.728.2262
Mobile: 206.390.0743
eMail: bevcorwin@...

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved product search
http://shopping.yahoo.com

Perhaps Documentum did it right, but what about other vendors? (Not an
I know that Interwoven, Vignette, and Stellent all have content
classification services, but I don't think they have anything that
help structure the web site around those classifications.  It seems
that most of these services focus on search instead of browsing.

--- In ia-cms-l@yahoogroups.com, David Heller <bolinhanyc@y...> wrote:
> Of course you can export the metadata into whatever
> you want. The metadata is housed in the host server as
> a database so the app server can query against it, or
> you can export the meta data and the category
> structure as an XML file and deal w/ it that way.
>
> The tool does have some work to do in this area, but
> I'm sure you can get started right now w/ what you
> need. Why? b/c I helped design it. ;)
>
> -- dave

Of course you can export the metadata into whatever
you want. The metadata is housed in the host server as
a database so the app server can query against it, or
you can export the meta data and the category
structure as an XML file and deal w/ it that way.

The tool does have some work to do in this area, but
I'm sure you can get started right now w/ what you
need. Why? b/c I helped design it. ;)

-- dave

--- mikejaixen <mikejaixen@...> wrote:
> Tools like this (or Interwoven's MetaTagger) appear to have a great
> deal of power to help categorize content. But they essentially stop
> after the content is categorized in the repository.
>
> They still lack the tools that allow me to export that metadata into
> a navigable web site, except through <META> tags that can be
> utilized by search.
>
> Perhaps CIS is different (we looked at Documentum until they
> cancelled on us), but I still haven't seen the power to take that
> metadata and taxonomy, and push out the structure of a web site.
> It's very disappointing to see much of the information I need buried
> deep inside the CMS, and no way to easily pull that information out.
>
> (As for the comment on being web centric, I plead guilty as charged.
> But I don't know that the need to be able to maintain a web IA of
> content is any different than the need to be able to maintain any
> other organization of content. The difference is merely the
> publication.)

To be honest, I'm less familiiar w/ the metadata piece
than the taxonomy piece. But my understanding is that
you create rules for what it should use for metadata
and how to apply that metadata to the content as it is
generated.

As for the taxonomy piece, you basically got it.

-- dave

--- Marcia Morante <marcia@...> wrote:
> Dave -
>
> I'm trying to understand CIS a little better. Perhaps you can help
> me. You mentioned that CIS does not generate a taxonomy but
> categorizes documents based on the taxonomy and rules that a user
> provides
>
>  Correct so far?
>
> What about meta data? Does it have a facility similar to
> Interwoven's Metatagger for extracting different types of nouns or
> noun phrases (country names, ticker symbols, company names, etc.)?
> Does it have other types of meta data extraction capabilities?
>
> Thanks for your help.
>
> Marcia Morante
> KCurve, Inc.

Dave -

I'm trying to understand CIS a little better.  Perhaps you can help me.  You
mentioned that CIS does not generate a taxonomy but categorizes documents
based on the taxonomy and rules that a user provides  Correct so far?

What about meta data?  Does it have a facility similar to Interwoven's
Metatagger for extracting different types of nouns or noun phrases (country
names, ticker symbols, company names, etc.)?  Does it have other types of
meta data extraction capabilities?

Thanks for your help.

Marcia Morante
KCurve, Inc.
(718)881-5915 - office
(917)821-2087 - mobile
http://kcurve.com
Effective Content Management for the Web


> -----Original Message-----
> From: David Heller [mailto:bolinhanyc@...]
> Sent: Tuesday, September 23, 2003 11:31 PM
> To: ia-cms-l@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [ia-cms-l] Re: CMS: What do they do well - and what do they
> still need to do
>
>
> Hi Mike,
>
> Please take another look @ documentum (everyone I am no longer an
> employee of DCTM) they have a wonderful addition to their Web
> Publisher application called Content Intelligence Services. OK, I was
> not in product marketing there, so I didn't come up w/ the name, but
> this is basically a robust engine for taxonomy and meta data
> management and if I understand Mike correctly it is the engine for
> mike to do exactly what he needs.
>
> Now here's the trick. There is no magic here. Someone has to configure
> this puppy. Someone has to create the taxonomical structure. Nothing
> can do this for you. Nothing is going to do your job for you. If they
> claim it does, they are lying.
>
> But what tools like CIS do for you is manage it for you after the fact
> and help you apply your work to the content you previously created and
> will create.
>
> -- dave

I've just completed building a large-scale publishing
system on top of Interwoven, which is considered one
of the top CMSs and I keep shaking my head at the
conceptual limitations of the system.

as Mike J points out, most of these CMS's are really
"page generators," which allow simple link management.
  But Interwoven---just to pick on them--has no index
of the pages you've posted to a site.  So unless you
keep a really good Excel spreadsheet record on your
own, you haven't a clue about the number, distribution
and content of the pages on your site.

We've looked at trying to paste Adobe Acrobat 6.0 or
website spidering shareware on top of the Interwoven
mess to have some kind of audit feature of what's on
the site---but why is this our problem?

I've seen home grown CMS's--including one I expanded
into a large-scale CMS at Knight Ridder
newspapers--and I've seen shareware and a few
commercial low-end SiteBuilder type applications.  But
where is the leadership in CMS's for large-scale
corporate and institutional Websites?

I think a root of the problem is that all the venture
cash was burned up two years ago and companies like
Interwoven and Vingette are holding on by the
fingernails.  (Interwoven stock has fallen from $65 a
share three years ago to $3 a share now---which means
it was a $7 billion company and now it's a $350
million company)

Just ranting, but perhaps there's a CMS that's
listening.
--- ia-cms-l@yahoogroups.com wrote:
> 1. Re: CMS:  What do they do well - and what do they still need to do
>    From: "mikejaixen"
> 2. Re: Re: CMS:  What do they do well - and what do they still need to do
>    From: "melanie.kendell"
> 3. Re: Re: CMS:  What do they do well - and what do they still need to do
>    From: David Heller

Tools like this (or Interwoven's MetaTagger) appear to have a great
deal of power to help categorize content.  But they essentially stop
after the content is categorized in the repository.

They still lack the tools that allow me to export that metadata into a
navigable web site, except through <META> tags that can be utilized by
search.

Perhaps CIS is different (we looked at Documentum until they cancelled
on us), but I still haven't seen the power to take that metadata and
taxonomy, and push out the structure of a web site.  It's very
disappointing to see much of the information I need buried deep inside
the CMS, and no way to easily pull that information out.

(As for the comment on being web centric, I plead guilty as charged.
But I don't know that the need to be able to maintain a web IA of
content is any different than the need to be able to maintain any
other organization of content.  The difference is merely the publication.)

--- In ia-cms-l@yahoogroups.com, David Heller <bolinhanyc@y...> wrote:
> Hi Mike,
>
> Please take another look @ documentum (everyone I am no longer an
> employee of DCTM) they have a wonderful addition to their Web
> Publisher application called Content Intelligence Services. OK, I was
> not in product marketing there, so I didn't come up w/ the name, but
> this is basically a robust engine for taxonomy and meta data
> management and if I understand Mike correctly it is the engine for
> mike to do exactly what he needs.
>
> Now here's the trick. There is no magic here. Someone has to configure
> this puppy. Someone has to create the taxonomical structure. Nothing
> can do this for you. Nothing is going to do your job for you. If they
> claim it does, they are lying.
>
> But what tools like CIS do for you is manage it for you after the fact
> and help you apply your work to the content you previously created and
> will create.
>
> -- dave

Hi Mike,

Please take another look @ documentum (everyone I am no longer an
employee of DCTM) they have a wonderful addition to their Web
Publisher application called Content Intelligence Services. OK, I was
not in product marketing there, so I didn't come up w/ the name, but
this is basically a robust engine for taxonomy and meta data
management and if I understand Mike correctly it is the engine for
mike to do exactly what he needs.

Now here's the trick. There is no magic here. Someone has to configure
this puppy. Someone has to create the taxonomical structure. Nothing
can do this for you. Nothing is going to do your job for you. If they
claim it does, they are lying.

But what tools like CIS do for you is manage it for you after the fact
and help you apply your work to the content you previously created and
will create.

-- dave

mikejaixen <mikejaixen@...> wrote:
> My view of content management is that it should include site
> management features - but I haven't seen a lot of good examples of it.
>   My view point is that content management systems are adept at
> allowing users to create and update web pages, and post them to a web
> site.  However, they are less adept at taking that new content and
> updating the navigation on the site in the appropriate spot.  Most of
> the time, it appears to be a manual process.
>
> In my vision of what a content management system should do, it would
> contain an automated inventory of all of the content, which would
> include all of the information that IA's typically collect manually
> through a site audit.  It would then give you tools to work with that
> content inventory and update/regenerate navigation as necessary.
>
> Primarily, content authors would provide enough metadata that this
> content inventory could be automatically updated with new content and
> regenerate the necessary site navigation automatically.  (If I were to
> dream further, IA's would have the tools necessary to later revamp,
> reorganize, and update the navigation en masse as the site evolves.)
>
> Sure, we have little point solutions here and there that meet some of
> these needs.  But I don't see a total solution - or even a framework
> for building a solution - from vendors.
>
> Perhaps I've looked at the wrong vendors.  In the past, I've heard
> "you can do it" and found out that really "you can build it yourself
> if you need it".

mike wrote:

<snip>
> In my vision of what a content management system should do, it would
> contain an automated inventory of all of the content, which would
> include all of the information that IA's typically collect manually
> through a site audit.  It would then give you tools to work with that
> content inventory and update/regenerate navigation as necessary.
</snip>

In my vision a content management system manages content for several
delivery methods, not just websites. I agree a *web* content
management system should manage content at both page and site level.

A *content* management system should allow you to manage content at a
topic and "document" level even if that "document" is actually an
online help system.

I know IA is mostly concerned with web delivery, and while that pays
the bills that's fine, but I would like to see and use a more holistic
view where the requirements for information are analysed at a higher
level and the best way to communicate the information is implemented -
which may be through a website, but may include other avenues or
combinations of approaches all of which should be able to be sourced
from the content contained in a content management system.

-Melanie Kendell

My view of content management is that it should include site
management features - but I haven't seen a lot of good examples of it.
   My view point is that content management systems are adept at
allowing users to create and update web pages, and post them to a web
site.  However, they are less adept at taking that new content and
updating the navigation on the site in the appropriate spot.  Most of
the time, it appears to be a manual process.

In my vision of what a content management system should do, it would
contain an automated inventory of all of the content, which would
include all of the information that IA's typically collect manually
through a site audit.  It would then give you tools to work with that
content inventory and update/regenerate navigation as necessary.

Primarily, content authors would provide enough metadata that this
content inventory could be automatically updated with new content and
regenerate the necessary site navigation automatically.  (If I were to
  dream further, IA's would have the tools necessary to later revamp,
reorganize, and update the navigation en masse as the site evolves.)

Sure, we have little point solutions here and there that meet some of
these needs.  But I don't see a total solution - or even a framework
for building a solution - from vendors.

Perhaps I've looked at the wrong vendors.  In the past, I've heard
"you can do it" and found out that really "you can build it yourself
if you need it".


--- In ia-cms-l@yahoogroups.com, David Heller <bolinhanyc@y...> wrote:
> Can you give examples of what is sitemanagement vs.
> content management?
> -- dave

Can you give examples of what is sitemanagement vs.
content management?
-- dave


--- mikejaixen <mikejaixen@...> wrote:
> Perhaps to kick start this group again, I'd like to
> get some thoughts
> about content management systems.
>
> I often think of the old line: "Can't live with
> them, and can't live
> without 'em!"
>
> While I think these products have nailed the
> problems with creating
> and managing individual pages on web sites, they are
> sorely lacking in
> their ability to handle an entire site. There are
> lots of tools out
> there that can help, but I think we're still having
> to put up with too
> much "duct tape" to upll everything together.
>
>


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IA Summit '04 -- Breaking New Ground
IA Summit 2004
Hilton Austin, Austin, Texas
February 27-29, 2003


Call for Papers


Scope of the Conference
Some of us in the IA field are solidifying the IA
foundation, digging deeper, while others are pushing the
boundaries working with other fields and platforms. In both
cases, we are "breaking new ground". The ASIS&T IA Summit
2004 is seeking submissions from information architecture
practitioners and researchers that support this theme. If
you are developing the IA practice in your organisation by
documenting methods, applying IA principles to new
platforms and devices like interactive TV or handheld
devices, using techniques from related disciplines in your
day-to day work or researching the latest ways to connect
people and content, we want to hear from you.

We are open to contributions from people with solid and
relevant ideas, including areas that may be considered
ancillary or outside of Information Architecture. If
selected, we simply ask that you put in the time required
to create a solid and professional presentation for the
conference attendees.

We encourage submissions by students, developers and
designers, work of a specialised nature, work concerning
new features, design elements, methods or processes,
controversial topics, and work in progress. We are
especially interested in receiving submissions from
speakers in our field who have not presented at the Summit
in the past, including academics, professionals in related
fields and information architects who have not yet had the
opportunity to share their knowledge. We want to invigorate
our conference with new thoughts. If you have a solid idea
and proposal, but aren't an expert speaker, we can help.
Our planning committee has experienced authors and
presenters who can give a hand in fine-tuning your ideas
and presentations.

How do you know if you have an idea worth pursuing? Imagine
that you travelled out to Austin to attend the conference
and sat in on your presentation? Would it hold your
attention? Would it give you new focus or insight that you
could apply to your work? Does it provide fresh perspective
to what you think? If so, great. Go ahead and send along
your proposal idea. Don't be shy. . .

The Summit seeks proposals for:
* Case Studies – specific examples showing the use of IA in
completed projects
* Presentations – talks that discuss principles and ideas,
or provide insightful analogies and mind-opening
explorations to open the minds of information architects
* Tutorials – opportunities for information architecture
practitioners to discuss and develop a topic for a half-day

* Panels – differing opinions and discussion on the topics
of the day lead by a moderator
* Posters – illustrating a concept from research or
practise

DEADLINE FOR SUBMISSIONS
The submission deadline for case studies, presentations,
tutorials and panels is October 31st 2003. The submission
deadline for posters is December 5th 2003.


Go to the ASIS&T web site for more details on submitting
your paper.
http://www.asis.org/Conferences/IA04/index.html


Margaret Hanley
Technical Chair IA Summit 2004
mairead@...



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