Have we decided yet how we are going to proceed here?  A concrete plan will
make it easier for me to contribute.

My preference would be to read through Meno first, without reference to Klein,
and register our 'naive' impressions of the dialogue, then read Klein after.
Jumping back and forth is distracting to me, and discussing the dialogue first
will give us some ground to stand on outside Klein.

Are we waiting for a new list to be established to really begin?

Lee

> > Maybe Lance is still off on his adventure, but he has emphasized
> > that this new outfit makes it easy for him to create lists. --
> > Perhaps a slow-read of *Meno* would cross-fertilize the klein list
> > also. In any case, I'd certainly be eager to do a slow Meno read,
> > and we might just do that as a thread here until a new
> list gets set
> > up.

I'm back (although I am eager to return to the Republic of Georgia as
soon as possible). I'd be glad to create a Meno list.  I will try to
get it done tomorrow.

Lance

Friends:

With regard to the first three words:

>"exeis moi eipein" Which Klein translates as "Tell me, if you can...,"

the first word means do you have, so that it means do you have the
capability, that is, can you tell me, or deeper it means

         Do you have it memorized within you so that you can tell me?

Best wishes,

Sam Kutler

Dear George and Lee

> Maybe Lance is still off on his adventure, but he has emphasized
> that this new outfit makes it easy for him to create lists. --
> Perhaps a slow-read of *Meno* would cross-fertilize the klein list
> also. In any case, I'd certainly be eager to do a slow Meno read,
> and we might just do that as a thread here until a new list gets set
> up.

Let us then proceed as though with a blessing from the god of lists.

> > Bluck argues that the dialogue was written in 385/6 BC. He also presents
> > various dates for the other dialogues and reasons to support his dating.
>
> That's interesting. -- Since I don't have the book, can you say
> anything about what Bluck tries to make out of dating the
> composition? -- I tend to think such efforts are not that useful,
> and usually based on doubtful evidence.
>
I merely presented it as background. I agree with Klein who at some point
sort of said that it was nice that we had spent the last century deciding
when the dialogues were written. Now we could get on with what they meant.

>
> Meno was supposed to be 19 when he was an "ambassador" on a mission
> to Athens in 402? Or Meno was 19 at the time of the main events of
> the Anabasis?

That fact struck me also so that is why I mention it. My knowledge of the
history of the day is limited so I merely take Bluck as being correct.
Recent
scholarship may have a different date. I suppose the young age is possible
when we consider what Alexander the Great accomplished however it does for
me give a different tack on the dialogue. I had previously thought of Meno
as the "successful" man of Xenophon, not as still a teenager.

If you like I can try to give more of Bluck's argument for this age however
let us proceed with the dialogue and see how that works.

>
> Shall we also peek into Klein's Meno commentary?

I am open to suggestions but thought we could take the sections that Klein
uses. This means skipping the first part of Klein's book which deals with
many important issues.

So to the dialogue.

Klein's first comment section concerns the title and who Mr Meno is. Before
an Athenian of Plato's time read the dialogue (or had his slave read it to
her) she would know something of Meno even without Xenophon's work. Klein
gives some of that background, quoting Jowett who called Meno the
"Thessalian Alcibiades" He seems chiefly to set up the question "who is Mr.
Meno?" And that is perhaps one we will return to many times and I suppose in
determining that we will also consider "who is Socrates?"

The next section of Klein's concerns the dialogue 70 a 1-4

Klein first notes 2 aspects of the opening question:
1 the strangeness of the opening question from a man with Meno' reputation
and the abruptness of the beginning of the dialogue
2 the timeless nature of the question

He also notes that Meno follows "standard" Greek method in his question
virtue is regarded as having three possible sources: nature, practise, or
instruction. Meno thus appears to be educated in such matters and as Klein
notes probably aware that there is no ready answer to the question.

Lastly Klein indicates that the manner of Meno's question is rather
argumentative. the first three words of the dialogue are:
"exeis moi eipein" Which Klein translates as "Tell me, if you can..."

Regards

Emile Nowis

emile nowis wrote:

> Dear Kleinians
>
> It would suit me to try a slow reading of Klein's work on the Meno and then
> perhaps return to the Greek Mathematics.
> I have asked Lance for permission to use this list in that regard and as he
> has not said no I will proceed for now.

Maybe Lance is still off on his adventure, but he has emphasized
that this new outfit makes it easy for him to create lists. --
Perhaps a slow-read of *Meno* would cross-fertilize the klein list
also. In any case, I'd certainly be eager to do a slow Meno read,
and we might just do that as a thread here until a new list gets set
up.

>
> Meno Background
>
> As a bit of background I would like to merely mention some information
> contained in the book Plato's Meno by R. S. Bluck (Cambridge 1961). This is
> not by way of support of that book merely as an expedient.
>
> Date of the dialogue.
>
> Bluck argues that the dialogue was written in 385/6 BC. He also presents
> various dates for the other dialogues and reasons to support his dating.

That's interesting. -- Since I don't have the book, can you say
anything about what Bluck tries to make out of dating the
composition? -- I tend to think such efforts are not that useful,
and usually based on doubtful evidence.

>
> Dramatic Date

That's maybe more interesting still.


> Here Bluck is a bit more helpful giving some references to ancient sources
> on Mr. Meno. Let us leave those aside for now but return to them as they
> become mentioned in the dialogue. Chiefly he says that the dialogue would
> have occured at the end of January or beginning of February of 402 BC. This
> of course may be debated by some list members and as it becomes relevant to
> our commentary on the dialogue I hope they will do so.
>
> The occasion is Meno's visit to Athens to request aid to fight with
> Lycophron the tyrant of Pherae. Meno's namesake (from Pharsalus) was well
> known in Athens for supporting the Athenians expidition in 477 against Eion.
>
> More background may become relevant as we learn of Meno's relation to
> Aristippus and the great King.
> Xenophon talks of Meno in the Anabasis and from that we ascertain that Meno
> is roughly 19 years old at the time of the dialogue.

Meno was supposed to be 19 when he was an "ambassador" on a mission
to Athens in 402? Or Meno was 19 at the time of the main events of
the Anabasis?

Shall we also peek into Klein's Meno commentary?

Regards,

George

I'm in for a slow reading of Klein's book.

Lee Perlman

Dear Kleinians

It would suit me to try a slow reading of Klein's work on the Meno and then
perhaps return to the Greek Mathematics.
I have asked Lance for permission to use this list in that regard and as he
has not said no I will proceed for now.

Meno Background

As a bit of background I would like to merely mention some information
contained in the book Plato's Meno by R. S. Bluck (Cambridge 1961). This is
not by way of support of that book merely as an expedient.

Date of the dialogue.

Bluck argues that the dialogue was written in 385/6 BC. He also presents
various dates for the other dialogues and reasons to support his dating.

Dramatic Date

Here Bluck is a bit more helpful giving some references to ancient sources
on Mr. Meno. Let us leave those aside for now but return to them as they
become mentioned in the dialogue. Chiefly he says that the dialogue would
have occured at the end of January or beginning of February of 402 BC. This
of course may be debated by some list members and as it becomes relevant to
our commentary on the dialogue I hope they will do so.

The occasion is Meno's visit to Athens to request aid to fight with
Lycophron the tyrant of Pherae. Meno's namesake (from Pharsalus) was well
known in Athens for supporting the Athenians expidition in 477 against Eion.

More background may become relevant as we learn of Meno's relation to
Aristippus and the great King.
Xenophon talks of Meno in the Anabasis and from that we ascertain that Meno
is roughly 19 years old at the time of the dialogue.

Regards

Emile

I will be away from my computer from April 29 until May 9. I may be
able to check my e-mail while I am travelling, but I may not, so it is
likely that correspondence pertaining to my lists will go unanswered
until my return.

Most of this time I will be in Tbilisi, in the Republic of Georgia.
If you happen to be in that vicinity and would like to get together, I
can be contacted at the Metechi Palace Hotel.

Lance Fletcher, President
The Free Lance Academy Foundation
http://www.freelance-academy.org
lance@...

-----Original Message-----
From: norwinl@... <norwinl@...>
To: klein@onelist.com <klein@onelist.com>
Date: Thursday, April 22, 1999 2:40 PM
Subject: [klein] Auto Reply to your message ...


>  -----  The following is an automated response to your message
>  -----  generated on behalf of norwinl@...
>
>Thank you for your e-mail.  I am out of the office until
>Monday, 26 April, 1999, at which time I shall attend
>to your e-mail message.
>Should you wish to contact me then please call (011)
>350 5536.
>Thank you,
>Norwin Lederer
>

-----Original Message-----
From: norwinl@... <norwinl@...>
To: klein@onelist.com <klein@onelist.com>
Date: Thursday, April 22, 1999 2:39 PM
Subject: [klein] Auto Reply to your message ...


>  -----  The following is an automated response to your message
>  -----  generated on behalf of norwinl@...
>
>Thank you for your e-mail.  I am out of the office until
>Monday, 26 April, 1999, at which time I shall attend
>to your e-mail message.
>Should you wish to contact me then please call (011)
>350 5536.
>Thank you,
>Norwin Lederer
>

-----Original Message-----
From: norwinl@... <norwinl@...>
To: klein@onelist.com <klein@onelist.com>
Date: Thursday, April 22, 1999 2:38 PM
Subject: [klein] Auto Reply to your message ...


>  -----  The following is an automated response to your message
>  -----  generated on behalf of norwinl@...
>
>Thank you for your e-mail.  I am out of the office until
>Monday, 26 April, 1999, at which time I shall attend
>to your e-mail message.
>Should you wish to contact me then please call (011)
>350 5536.
>Thank you,
>Norwin Lederer
>

-----Original Message-----
From: norwinl@... <norwinl@...>
To: klein@onelist.com <klein@onelist.com>
Date: Thursday, April 22, 1999 2:37 PM
Subject: [klein] Auto Reply to your message ...


>  -----  The following is an automated response to your message
>  -----  generated on behalf of norwinl@...
>
>Thank you for your e-mail.  I am out of the office until
>Monday, 26 April, 1999, at which time I shall attend
>to your e-mail message.
>Should you wish to contact me then please call (011)
>350 5536.
>Thank you,
>Norwin Lederer
>

-----Original Message-----
From: norwinl@... <norwinl@...>
To: klein@onelist.com <klein@onelist.com>
Date: Thursday, April 22, 1999 2:33 PM
Subject: [klein] Auto Reply to your message ...


>  -----  The following is an automated response to your message
>  -----  generated on behalf of norwinl@...
>
>Thank you for your e-mail.  I am out of the office until
>Monday, 26 April, 1999, at which time I shall attend
>to your e-mail message.
>Should you wish to contact me then please call (011)
>350 5536.
>Thank you,
>Norwin Lederer
>

-----Original Message-----
From: norwinl@... <norwinl@...>
To: klein@onelist.com <klein@onelist.com>
Date: Thursday, April 22, 1999 2:32 PM
Subject: [klein] Auto Reply to your message ...


>  -----  The following is an automated response to your message
>  -----  generated on behalf of norwinl@...
>
>Thank you for your e-mail.  I am out of the office until
>Monday, 26 April, 1999, at which time I shall attend
>to your e-mail message.
>Should you wish to contact me then please call (011)
>350 5536.
>Thank you,
>Norwin Lederer
>

hi! do i know u?? can u introduce urself refresh my memory??
reply to me ASAP!!



>From: norwinl@...
>Reply-To: klein@onelist.com
>To: klein@onelist.com
>Subject: [klein] Auto Reply to your message ...
>Date: 22 Apr 1999 18:29:22 -0000
>
>  -----  The following is an automated response to your message
>  -----  generated on behalf of norwinl@...
>
>Thank you for your e-mail.  I am out of the office until
>Monday, 26 April, 1999, at which time I shall attend
>to your e-mail message.
>Should you wish to contact me then please call (011)
>350 5536.
>Thank you,
>Norwin Lederer

This is a message from the list owner.

One of our subscribers unfortunately configured an auto-responder to
let people know that he was away, without setting his list
subscription to "no mail" or unsubscribing.  I have intervened to
correct the problem (I hope).

If you feel the need to set up an autoresponder for your address,
please take care to set your subscription to no mail.

Lance Fletcher, President
The Free Lance Academy Foundation
http://www.freelance-academy.org
lance@...

-----  The following is an automated response to your message
   -----  generated on behalf of norwinl@...

Thank you for your e-mail.  I am out of the office until
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Should you wish to contact me then please call (011)
350 5536.
Thank you,
Norwin Lederer

-----  The following is an automated response to your message
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Thank you for your e-mail.  I am out of the office until
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350 5536.
Thank you,
Norwin Lederer

-----  The following is an automated response to your message
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Thank you for your e-mail.  I am out of the office until
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350 5536.
Thank you,
Norwin Lederer

-----  The following is an automated response to your message
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Thank you for your e-mail.  I am out of the office until
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350 5536.
Thank you,
Norwin Lederer

-----  The following is an automated response to your message
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Thank you for your e-mail.  I am out of the office until
Monday, 26 April, 1999, at which time I shall attend
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350 5536.
Thank you,
Norwin Lederer

-----  The following is an automated response to your message
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Thank you for your e-mail.  I am out of the office until
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350 5536.
Thank you,
Norwin Lederer

-----  The following is an automated response to your message
   -----  generated on behalf of norwinl@...

Thank you for your e-mail.  I am out of the office until
Monday, 26 April, 1999, at which time I shall attend
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350 5536.
Thank you,
Norwin Lederer

-----  The following is an automated response to your message
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Thank you for your e-mail.  I am out of the office until
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350 5536.
Thank you,
Norwin Lederer

-----  The following is an automated response to your message
   -----  generated on behalf of norwinl@...

Thank you for your e-mail.  I am out of the office until
Monday, 26 April, 1999, at which time I shall attend
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350 5536.
Thank you,
Norwin Lederer

Welcome to the Klein list.

Might I ask what of your Polutroposity made you join the Klein list?

We were trying to read the Greek Math book but there has been little
interest of late.

Regards

Emile


>
> I am currently a new member to this list.  I am a triple major in college
(Chemistry, Mathematics, and Astronomy) although I might become a quadruple
major which could include Physics.  I am going for a Ph.D. in each one!!
You might think it's impossible, but the impossible is only that which you
think is impossible :^]
>
> I hope I can be of a help in this list.  I have been studying each of the
topics I'm going to me majoring in since I was in the 5th grade in grade
school!
>
> Hope to hear from you!!
>
> --POSEIDONAS
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Are you hogging all the fun?
> http://www.ONElist.com
> Friends tell friends about ONElist!
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> This is one of the  lists sponsored by The Free Lance Academy, home of
> Slow Reading:  http://www.freelance-academy.org  To unsubscribe by
> e-mail, mailto:klein-unsubscribe@onelist.com
>

Hello Everyone!!

I am currently a new member to this list.  I am a triple major in college
(Chemistry, Mathematics, and Astronomy) although I might become a quadruple
major which could include Physics.  I am going for a Ph.D. in each one!!  You
might think it's impossible, but the impossible is only that which you think is
impossible :^]

I hope I can be of a help in this list.  I have been studying each of the topics
I'm going to me majoring in since I was in the 5th grade in grade school!

Hope to hear from you!!

--POSEIDONAS

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Announcing:    FIDES-ET-RATIO   (Faith and Reason)

A List Dedicated to the Reading and Understanding of the Encyclical
"Fides et Ratio" by Pope John Paul II


The Free Lance Academy is pleased to announce the formation of the
fides-et-ratio list and you are cordially invited to subscribe.

You may subscribe to the fides-et-ratio list via e-mail by sending a
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web page:

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The discussion leader for the fides-et-ratio list is Daniel Scuiry
[Daniel.Scuiry@...].  It was also his idea to create this list.
The following is Daniel Scuiry's description of the intention for the
list.

"The purpose of the fides-et-ratio list is to host a critical reading
of the papal encyclical, "Fides et Ratio (Faith and Reason)". We will
survey the encyclical's text with an aim towards relating it to issues
relavent to philosophers, scientists, academics, religionists and
anyone committed to thoughtful reflection on the meaning of personal
existence: "All men and women ... are in some sense philosophers and
have their own philosophical conceptions with which they direct their
lives. In one way or other, they shape a comprehensive vision and an
answer to the question of life's meaning..." (Fides et Ratio, #30).
Our goal is to offer readers, through the benefit of an open forum,
the opportunity to form their own conscience and make their own
critical judgment on the meaning and implications this encyclical may
have in their lives. Hence this list is open to anyone, regardless of
background or theistic persuasion, who believes the encyclical has
meaning and impact in their own lives or the lives of others."

The plan is to complete the reading of Fides et Ration within
approximately four to six months.

Lance Fletcher, President
The Free Lance Academy Foundation
http://www.freelance-academy.org
lance@...

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I am pleased to announce the formation of the Herodotus list and I
invite you to subscribe.

You may subscribe to the herodotus list via e-mail by sending a
message to:

herodotus-subscribe@onelist.com

Or, if you prefer, you can join this list by going to the following
web page:

      http://www.onelist.com/subscribe.cgi/herodotus

The purpose of the Herodotus list is to provide a forum for slow
readings and
thoughtful discussions of the "Histories" of Herodotus. (For a brief
discussion
of what I mean by "slow reading," please see my essay at
http://www.freelance-academy.org/slowread.htm.) The discussion leader
for the
Herodotus list will be Jim Costopoulos of Vassar.

For the first few months there will be some attempt to have the
discussion on the list track a seminar on Herodotus that is now under
way at Fordham.

Note:  This message is being sent to all of the lists hosted by The
Free Lance Academy at Onelist.com.  If you are subscribed to more than
one of those lists, you will receive more than one copy of this
message.  I apologize for the duplication.

Lance Fletcher, President
The Free Lance Academy Foundation
http://www.freelance-academy.org
lance@...

Dear Kleinlist subscribers:

     Please consider this email as an acceptance
     of this new site address to discuss serverl
     new and old historical aspects of Greek algebra,
     before and after Diophantus. Before Diophantus,
     Plato has  been discussed in ways that will not
     be repeated, at this time.

     However, the foundations of differential
     calculus, plane geometry and Greek algebra
     are vividly reported by Archimedes, as
     Dijksterhuis detailed on pages 129-133,
     in the book ARCHIMEDES, published by Princeton
     Press, in ways that supporters of Klein
     may wish to discuss.

     Simply stated, an Egyptian solution to the
     following 1/4th geometric infinite series:

     4A/3 = A + A/4 + A/4^2 + A/4^3 + ... + A/4^n

     is rigorous proven by Archimedes in the form:

     4A/3 = A + B + C + D + E + E/3

     where A could be any number, even an incommensurate,
     with B = A/4, C = B/4, D = C/4 and E = D/4.

     Summarizing the proof in arithmetic terms, noting that
     Archimedes used a geometric context, a simple recursive
     rule is vividly present by setting A = 1:

     4/3 = 1 + 1/4 + 1/16 +  1/64 + 1/256 + 1/(3*256)

     1/3 - 1/4 = 1/(3*4) = 1/12

     1/12 - 1/16 = 1/(3*16) = 1/48

     1/48 - 1/64 = 1/(3*64) = 1/192

     1/92 - 1/256 = 1/(3*256) = 1/782

     could go on forever. However Archiedes exactly
     truncated the series at the 6th term, when
     any nth term would be equally accurate. I suspect
     that Archimedes based his 6-term convention was on
     the long standing Horus-Eye practice, and
     numeration fact:

     1 = 1/2 + 1/4 + 1/8 + 1/16 + 1/32 + 1/64 + ...

     with a vivid exact solution attached.

     Note that for Archimedes, the A = 1 case exactly
     expressed 1/3rd, as Babylonians nor our modern
     base 10 decimal system can exactly state.

     Finally, also note that by adding the A = 1/2 case,
     evaluated as:

     2/3  = 1/2 + 1/8 + 1/32 + ...

     to the A = 1 case,

     The Egyptian Horus-Eye series appears.

     What does all of this imply? Well, to myself, and to
     one or two others that haved looked closely at the
     Greek and Egyptian number theory evidence, evidence
     that is also present in Euclid's ELEMENTS and the
     work of Diophantus in interesting ways; this means
     that Greek algebra was based on Egyptian algebra
     more than Diophantine geometric number views.

     Plato would also agree, I propose, because Archimedes'
     version of the 1/4th geometric series was exact, a standard
     that Plato has long been known as requiring.

     Regards to all,


     Milo Gardner
     Sacramento, Calif.