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Semantic categories of root words, and part-of-speech conversion   Message List  
Reply Message #100 of 272 |
I've thought some more about how we decide what the noun
meaning of a word must probably be, if we know its verb
meaning, or vice versa. Rene de Saussure came
up with the theory of three semantic categories for root
words in Esperanto, which was later elaborated by
Kalocsay and Waringhien - something like this:

1. substantial (the noun form is the primary meaning, others
are derived from it. adj = related to, made of, this thing;
verb = to be this thing; to be made of this stuff;
to use this tool; or one of several other derivations)

2. quality (the adjective form is the primary meaning, others
are derived from it: noun = this quality in the abstract,
verb = to have this quality)

3. action (the verb form is the primary meaning, others
are derived from it; noun = act of doing this action,
adj = related to the action)

I think recognizing a fourth category (relationship) might be
useful, especially for languages which can derive ad-hoc
prepositions the way Esperanto derives nouns, verbs and
adjectives. I'll get to that later.

There are problems with this theory, at least as it applies
to Esperanto; I'm not sure to what extent they necessarily
apply to other similarly schematic conlangs. Edmund
Grimley-Evans outlines them here:

http://www.rano.org/vortfarado.html

The problem for learners is when words for similar things
are arbitrarily placed in different root categories. For instance,
most words for tools are derived from an action root + the
"ilo" suffix; but a few words for tools have dedicated substantial
root words, and then have verbs derived from them meaning
"to use this tool". It's famously tricky to remember whether
"broso" derives "brosi" and "kombi" derives "kombilo",
or vice versa (I have to look it up almost every time, and I've
been a pretty fluent speaker of Esperanto for six or seven years.)

So, for Konya (and other IALs, or non-IAL conlangs that are
designed to be easy to learn and use) it would make sense to:

1. Define a consistent rule for how verbs and adjectives
derive from substantial roots; which needn't be the same as
the consistent rule for how nouns and adjectives derive from
action roots, etc.

2. Define vocabulary-building principles up front to avoid
problems like broso/kombilo : for instance, "all words for tools
are substantial roots" (probably not a good idea) or
"all words for tools are derived from an action root +
a tool suffix".

In order to come up with a useful small set of
consistent rules for derivation, it might be necessary to
have more than three categories. In particular, relationships
don't seem to fit easily into the above categories.
Some (like "near") can be forced into the quality
category, and some ("mother", "subset") into the
substantial category, but this may may lead to problems.

We could define that for roots signifying a relationship,
the primary meaning is the preposition, and the verb, etc.
are derived from that by some specified rules;
or maybe the verb is primary (to have such a relationship with
the object of the verb), and the preposition and substantive
are derived in a certain way.

I didn't plan this out perfectly well in gjax-zym-byn,
and have consequently had some confusion about how
certain postpositions derived from relationship-roots
should work. For instance, does the postpositionizing of
"subset" result in

X [subset]-[postp] Y = "Y which is a subset of X",
or "Y of which X is a subset"? I finally decided on the former.

A rule like this might work for relationship-words:

1. The prepositional meaning is primary, and means
"the headword of the prepositional phrase is in this
relationship to the object of the preposition".

2. The verb derived from that means "to be in such a relationship
to the object of the verb".

3. The noun derived from that means "an entity which is in
this relationship to some other entity".
[Alternatively: the noun means "this kind of relationship
in the abstract". Either one may have problems.
Bear with me.]

4. The adjective derived from that means "typical of
or appropriate to such a relationship".

I can give rough Esperanto examples (some of which
won't be perfectly standard Esperanto):

1a. Li estas _cxe_ sia hejmo.

2a. Li _cxeas_ sian hejmon. ["cxeesti" is more standard]

3a. Cxu li estas _cxea_?

4a. Diru al la cxeo ke li foriru. [Totally nonstandard;
in normal Esperanto "cxeo" is rare but would probably
mean "being-at-ness" rather than "one who is at" some
place.]


1b. Johano _patr_ Tomaso venos hodiaux.
[Nonstandard; I intend it as "John
who-is-the-father-of Thomas is coming today".]

2b. Johano _patras_ Tomason.
[Rare, but not nonstandard.]

3b. La patra amo malsamas ol la patrina amo.
[Fairly standard.]

4b. Mia patro venos hodiaux.
[Totally normal. In E-o "patro" is the basis and
"patra", "patri" are derived from it.]

#4a seemed fairly awkard. Let's try both series again
using the alternate form of rule 3 (noun means the abstract
relationship rather than an entity who is in that relationship
with another):

4a2. Diru al la cxeulo ke li foriru.
[Pretty normal Esperanto, though "cxeestanto" would be
more typical.]

4b2a. Patro [= patreco] estas grava rilato.
4b2b. Mia _patrulo_ venos hodiaux.
[Nonstandard. But maybe in a new conlang
it would make sense to have most words for persons
derived with one of a few suffixes, as with my
tools example above?]

That seems a little better, but still not quite
satisfactory. Maybe "relationship" is still too broad
a category for one derivation rule to apply to all its
members.

--
Jim Henry
http://www.pobox.com/~jimhenry/review/log.htm



Tue Jul 19, 2005 4:37 pm

jack_longshadow
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Message #100 of 272 |
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I've thought some more about how we decide what the noun meaning of a word must probably be, if we know its verb meaning, or vice versa. Rene de Saussure came...
Jim Henry
jack_longshadow Offline Send Email
Jul 19, 2005
4:39 pm

Jim, this is all great stuff, as is your preceding post. It's going to take me a while to digest it, but man do I appreciate it! I will say this: I remember...
HandyDad Offline Send Email Jul 19, 2005
6:01 pm

I'm wondering if maybe the 'three semantic categories' approach that Jim referred to will mostly do the job, if we cheat a little. By 'cheat', I mean that we...
HandyDad Offline Send Email Jul 20, 2005
1:55 am

... As I was reviewing some vocabulary additions and changes in preparation for the next update, due this weekend, I began to get a glimmer of a pattern in...
HandyDad Offline Send Email Jul 20, 2005
3:47 pm

I'm referring back to Rick Morneau's monograph to see if a pattern lies within his verb classification scheme. But there are two things I'm not sure about: 1)...
HandyDad Offline Send Email Jul 20, 2005
8:08 pm

... This might work pretty well. Volapu:k and Vorlin defined all content root words as nouns, and derived verbs, adjectives etc from them; my understanding is...
Jim Henry
jack_longshadow Offline Send Email
Jul 20, 2005
9:48 pm

... Jim, I've had all day (between tending to a very sick wife...a bad flu bug, poor thing) to think and fret. And I finally came to a conclusion that you also...
HandyDad Offline Send Email Jul 20, 2005
11:20 pm

It occurs to me...if primarily verbal roots mean "an act of XXXing" when converted to nouns, and "having the quality of XXXing, having been XXXed" when...
HandyDad Offline Send Email Jul 21, 2005
4:40 am

... I think we still need those suffixes. For consistency, I don't think an active verb -> modifier would typically mean "having been XXXed" but "related to...
Jim Henry
jack_longshadow Offline Send Email
Jul 21, 2005
11:00 am

... Okay. And why remove them peremptorily if there's even a chance they could be useful? They're not taking up name space that could be readily turned to...
HandyDad Offline Send Email Jul 21, 2005
11:42 am

... For the "one who is doing ~ at the moment", you could use "su-n~yuna" (or maybe just "su-n-~" ?), leaving "ko-n-" for the "one who does ~ habitually, by...
Jim Henry
jack_longshadow Offline Send Email
Jul 21, 2005
12:49 pm

... "su" almost works nicely, but I was looking for something that might not be a person, or even animate. It would be highly productive, like '-er' in...
HandyDad Offline Send Email Jul 21, 2005
5:04 pm

... That sounds odd. I feel like it would be better with mi sinyu we pe yo nixyu we kausa ... That would work in relatively simple sentences. I worry that in...
Jim Henry
jack_longshadow Offline Send Email
Jul 21, 2005
7:51 pm

... <jimhenry1973@g...> ... house, not the ... I'm sure that English speakers will find nouns and modifiers becoming verbs even odder. :-) ... house' is tied...
HandyDad Offline Send Email Jul 22, 2005
2:25 am

... If "we" is a special preposition that always relates to the verb, then you would not need "ye" if you said pe nixwi lunlena selyu kewi mo we kota The man...
Jim Henry
jack_longshadow Offline Send Email
Jul 22, 2005
4:24 pm

... <jimhenry1973@g...> ... Quite so. And I would hope that that would become the typical order; the sample sentences could suggest that. This would handle the...
HandyDad Offline Send Email Jul 22, 2005
5:31 pm

... I thought of that as a possible logical meaning of the sentence, but figured the pragmatics of English would force the first interpretation (the meeting...
Jim Henry
jack_longshadow Offline Send Email
Jul 22, 2005
6:17 pm

WARNING: LONG POST ... <jimhenry1973@g...> ... Yes, indeed! I'm using the "yo" divider for many other sentence scope functions, so this fits right in. ... Most...
HandyDad Offline Send Email Jul 23, 2005
10:04 pm

... The only problem I have with this is that "male" is maybe a more fundamental concept than "man" (adult male human). That's why I would incline to...
Jim Henry
jack_longshadow Offline Send Email
Jul 24, 2005
2:39 am

... I wouldn't mind if there were a bit of a naturalistic feel to Konya. However, I expect that will come as the lexicon grows naturally. We should try to set...
HandyDad Offline Send Email Jul 24, 2005
4:56 am

... Yes... though maybe some relationship terms would be _used_ more often in verb or adjective form than in their (default) preposition form. If we find ...
Jim Henry
jack_longshadow Offline Send Email
Jul 25, 2005
4:45 am

... jimhenry1973@g...> ... The relationship verb does indeed seem to lend itself to a great many concepts that were a real struggle to fit into other...
HandyDad Offline Send Email Jul 25, 2005
4:39 pm

... Yes, I reckon so. ... Couldn't those be "xi pinme" and "xinpi me", thus distinguishing them? Or alternatively "xin pimen" and "xipin men", with -n marking...
Jim Henry
jack_longshadow Offline Send Email
Jul 25, 2005
6:12 pm

... "pinme" and "xinpi" would necessarily be compound modifiers in this hypothetical system, while "pime" and "xinpi" would be core modifiers. The only way...
HandyDad Offline Send Email Jul 25, 2005
7:16 pm

... Oops. I meant "words", not "modifiers"....
HandyDad Offline Send Email Jul 25, 2005
7:19 pm

... You also listed "xinpi" twice. I think you meant "xipi" the second time, right? No, what I meant (I think; I may be getting our various hypothetical...
Jim Henry
jack_longshadow Offline Send Email
Jul 25, 2005
8:03 pm

... this ... modifiers. ... Oops again. ... I was referring to the former. ... Oh! I was thinking of root forms of (Ca)*CVCV, where the final vowel shows the...
HandyDad Offline Send Email Jul 25, 2005
10:22 pm

... Oh, I should have read your later message before firing away. ... I forgot that the diphthongs "au" and "ai" can also appear as the syllable in the 'heart'...
HandyDad Offline Send Email Jul 25, 2005
10:30 pm

... Oh, right. I forgot about the diphthongs too. With them available, we don't need to add a couple of more core vowels for epenthetic hyphen and conjunction...
Jim Henry
jack_longshadow Offline Send Email
Jul 25, 2005
10:51 pm
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