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Hi Dana,

--- In konyalanguage@yahoogroups.com, <li_sasxsek@...> wrote:
...
> Konya on the other hand, I thought started off well but just
> didn't get very far before attention was shifted to Ilomi/Elomi,
> which later gave way to Lume, etc.


Ah yes, Lume; I _thought_ I'd missed out a grandchild or so.  And I
agree that Konya "started off well"; I even felt that Elomi perhaps
lost a bit of the sound that I was enjoying in Konya.  Perhaps it's
worth revisiting Konya and the reasons that Elomi forked from it.  If I
find out anything noteworthy, I'll get back to you.

Regards,
Yahya

> [mailto:konyalanguage@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Yahya
> > > > Hi, All. I foreswore all "rights", to the extent that
there
> > > ever were any, to Konya, Elomi, and ilomi last fall, in a
> > > public posting to the auxlang list server (also to the
> > > conlang list server IIRC). ---larry
> >
> > It's always refreshing to see someone working on something
> > besides Euroclones so I really hate to see projects like
this
> > fade away.

> The only practical difficulties I had with the Konya / Elomi /
Ilomi
> family were that:
>
> 1) many useful words were simply too long (*);
>  and
>
> 2) the lack of any vowel harmony rules (or something!) made
quite a
> few particular derived words rather awkward to say without
them
> seeming to morph, will-I, nill-I, into forms with rather more
> internal rhymes.
>
> These carping crticisms aside, I'm confident that the corpus
created
> so quickly - by so few - demonstrated that Ilomi and its ilk
had
> plenty of expressive power and versatility, were relatively
easy to
> pronounce, and would be pretty easy and quick to learn.  On
that
> assessment, I don't think we should write the experiment off
just yet.

I don't think vowel harmony is a good idea for an auxlang, but I
agree about the long words in Ilomi.   The other thing had to do
with the fact that it seemed to go too far in trying not to be a
Euroclone.  It's not something I'd adovcate as a WAL, but I just
though it was a cool project because I liked its aesthetic
qualities.  It has a pleasing polynesian flavor to it.

Konya on the other hand, I thought started off well but just
didn't get very far before attention was shifted to Ilomi/Elomi,
which later gave way to Lume, etc.

> (*) This thought, together with some questions asked by my
family
> about the meanings of some common English affixes deriving
from the
> classical languages, made me review the derivation schemes of
Latin,
> which show a surprising economy in the length of derived
forms.  And
> the common thread, in many IE languages, of deriving different

> grammatical forms by mutating vowels, shows the value of using
a
> consonantal skeleton to convey a root meaning - a process
taken
> almost to its logical extreme in "West Asiatic" (which ought
by
> rights include most of Europe!), or whatever Semitic languages
are
> now called.  But can we have a language with consonant
skeletons
> imparting root meanings, and vowel sequences grammatical
roles,
> without necessarily producing a "Euroclone" or a
"Semiticlone"?  YA

Yes, it's fairly common in most languages to favor the consonant
over the vowel to carry meaning.

Esperanto derivation to some extent does what you say.  "-Vs"
for active verbs, "-Vt-" for active participles, and "-Vnt-" for
passive participles with the vowel changing beween i, a, or o to
indicate past, present or future.

Hi Dana,

Me too!

The only practical difficulties I had with the Konya / Elomi / Ilomi
family were that:

1) many useful words were simply too long (*);
  and

2) the lack of any vowel harmony rules (or something!) made quite a
few particular derived words rather awkward to say without them
seeming to morph, will-I, nill-I, into forms with rather more
internal rhymes.

These carping crticisms aside, I'm confident that the corpus created
so quickly - by so few - demonstrated that Ilomi and its ilk had
plenty of expressive power and versatility, were relatively easy to
pronounce, and would be pretty easy and quick to learn.  On that
assessment, I don't think we should write the experiment off just yet.

Regards,
Yahya

(*) This thought, together with some questions asked by my family
about the meanings of some common English affixes deriving from the
classical languages, made me review the derivation schemes of Latin,
which show a surprising economy in the length of derived forms.  And
the common thread, in many IE languages, of deriving different
grammatical forms by mutating vowels, shows the value of using a
consonantal skeleton to convey a root meaning - a process taken
almost to its logical extreme in "West Asiatic" (which ought by
rights include most of Europe!), or whatever Semitic languages are
now called.  But can we have a language with consonant skeletons
imparting root meanings, and vowel sequences grammatical roles,
without necessarily producing a "Euroclone" or a "Semiticlone"?  YA


--- In konyalanguage@yahoogroups.com, <li_sasxsek@...> wrote:
>
> > > Hi, All. I foreswore all "rights", to the extent that there
> > ever were any, to Konya, Elomi, and ilomi last fall, in a
> > public posting to the auxlang list server (also to the
> > conlang list server IIRC). ---larry
>
> It's always refreshing to see someone working on something
> besides Euroclones so I really hate to see projects like this
> fade away.
>
>
> ------------------------------
> deinx nxtxr / Dana Nutter
>
> LI SASXSEK LATIS.
> http://www.nutter.net/sasxsek
>

Jim,

Thanks for the links.   I haven't been able to keep up much email
correspondence so far this year; if this should improve, I'll
probably get back to CONLANGs and LINGUIST-LIST.  But because of
this, I missed Larry's announcements.

Regards,
Yahya

   --- In konyalanguage@yahoogroups.com, "Jim Henry"
<jimhenry1973@...> wrote:
>
> On 6/17/07, Larry Sulky <larrysulky@...> wrote:
> >
> >
> > Hi, All. I foreswore all "rights", to the extent that there ever
were any, to Konya, Elomi, and ilomi last fall, in a public posting
to the auxlang list server (also to the conlang list server IIRC). ---
larry
>
> Specifically
>
> http://listserv.brown.edu/archives/cgi-bin/wa?
A2=ind0609A&L=AUXLANG&T=0&F=&S=&P=4025
>
> http://listserv.brown.edu/archives/cgi-bin/wa?
A2=ind0609A&L=AUXLANG&D=0&T=0&P=10091
>
> --
> Jim Henry
> http://www.pobox.com/~jimhenry
>

Ok, Larry!

I'm sorry to know that you've lost interest in this particular
creation, since I believe it had some real possibilities.  Still, I'm
sure you had good reasons.

What lessons, if any, do you think we might draw from your expeience,
regarding, say, which approaches are more fruitful, and which less
so, when constructing an IAL?

Regards,
Yahya


--- In konyalanguage@yahoogroups.com, "Larry Sulky" <larrysulky@...>
wrote:
>
> Hi, All. I foreswore all "rights", to the extent that there ever
were any,
> to Konya, Elomi, and ilomi last fall, in a public posting to the
auxlang
> list server (also to the conlang list server IIRC). ---larry
>

> > Hi, All. I foreswore all "rights", to the extent that there
> ever were any, to Konya, Elomi, and ilomi last fall, in a
> public posting to the auxlang list server (also to the
> conlang list server IIRC). ---larry

It's always refreshing to see someone working on something
besides Euroclones so I really hate to see projects like this
fade away.


------------------------------
deinx nxtxr / Dana Nutter

LI SASXSEK LATIS.
http://www.nutter.net/sasxsek

On 6/17/07, Larry Sulky <larrysulky@...> wrote:
>
>
> Hi, All. I foreswore all "rights", to the extent that there ever were any, to
Konya, Elomi, and ilomi last fall, in a public posting to the auxlang list
server (also to the conlang list server IIRC). ---larry

Specifically

http://listserv.brown.edu/archives/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0609A&L=AUXLANG&T=0&F=&S=&P=\
4025

http://listserv.brown.edu/archives/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0609A&L=AUXLANG&D=0&T=0&P=10\
091

--
Jim Henry
http://www.pobox.com/~jimhenry

--- In konyalanguage@yahoogroups.com, "Yahya" <yahya@...> wrote:
>
>
> --- In konyalanguage@yahoogroups.com, star sky <persiabusiness@>
> wrote:
> >
> > HI, HOW ARE YOU , DEAR FRIEND,
> >   I WANT TO LEARN KONYA LANGUAGE , I WILL BE GLAD IF YOU HELP ME.
> THANKS.
> >   Z.T
(etc)

Hi again, ZT,

I should add that Konya's development resulted in another
language, "Elomi", based on many of the same principles, yet
different.  And that Elomi in turn gave place to "Ilomi".  I don't
know where this chain has lead to at the present time, but have just
asked Larry Sulky to fill us in.

Even if Larry has shelved (or even abandoned) Konya, there's nothing
in practice to stop anyone else developing it further as they see
fit.  Though Larry probably has the copyright on the name, and maybe
even on the language in its last incarnation before Elomi took flight.

Regards,
Yahya


Yahya Abdal-Aziz
WHEELERS HILL VIC 3150 AUSTRALIA

music on the web: http://www.esnips.com/web/yahyas-music

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--- In konyalanguage@yahoogroups.com, "HandyDad" <lsulky@...> wrote:
>
> Hi, All. When last we left our Konya story, I had some small
updates to make. I have yet to make them, but I will do so. In the
meantime, here is something new that I've been working on: Elomi
(http://ca.geocities.com/handydad/elomi/elomi-main.html).
>
> I've always liked the sound of Hawai'ian and other Polynesian
languages, but had never thought of a way to achieve something like
it in a self-segregating morphology with the clear-cut compounding
mechanisms that I prefer. Now I think I have.
>
> Elomi's genesis lies within Konya but it is quite a different
language. It is even more vowel-y. Its morphology is even simpler. It
is strongly head-initial. And I think it is prettier, more appealing,
though at the cost, sometimes, of some extra syllables.
>
> For a while at least, I intend to pursue Konya and Elomi in
parallel. Every construct that gets thought of for one probably needs
a counterpart in the other.
>
> The Elomi web site is nearly identical to that of Konya, and I have
created a Yahoo group (linkable from the web site). I invite your
comments and critiques there. Given that you have background in
Konya, you might want to start with the Elomi Babel text page to get
an immediate sense of the languages compared.
>
> I look forward to hearing from you all.

-----

Hi Larry!

What's the current picture: Konya -> Elomi -> Ilomi -> ...?

Do you intend to develop Konya further, or do you have good reason to
declare this a dead-end?  If so, should we close this group and all
go play in, say, "Wuxufulu"?

Best,
Yahya

>

--- In konyalanguage@yahoogroups.com, star sky <persiabusiness@...>
wrote:
>
> HI, HOW ARE YOU , DEAR FRIEND,
>   I WANT TO LEARN KONYA LANGUAGE , I WILL BE GLAD IF YOU HELP ME.
THANKS.
>   Z.T


Hi, ZT or "Star sky" or "Persia Business",

May I ask, what is your mother tongue?  Also, what is you interest in
Konya, and how did you first hear about it?

Perhaps you already know that Konya is a "conlang", or "constructed
language", ie an artificial creation of people who enjoy the study of
language and linguistic change.  Thus, it is unlikely to offer very
much business advantage in the real world! ;-)  At least, not yet.

The intended use of Konya is as an International Auxiliary Language
or IAL.  That is, its inventors hope that people from all over the
world will find that Konya makes it easier to talk together, even
though their mother tongues may differ.

Konya is a work-in-progress, and much more work needs to be done
before it can serve this purpose fully.  We invite you to help do
this work, in any way possible.  For example, you might simply
ask "How do I say the following in Konya?" and give us some sentences
in English (or possibly in another language, if any of us speak it)
that you'd like to be able to create in Konya.

If you'd still like to learn more about Konya, why not first visit
the website http://ca.geocities.com/handydad/konya/konya-main.html to
get started.  If you have more specific questions, please feel free
to ask them here.

Regards,
Yahya

Yahya Abdal-Aziz
WHEELERS HILL VIC 3150 AUSTRALIA

music on the web: http://www.esnips.com/web/yahyas-music

Save energy, money and the environment - do you need to print this
message?
This email and any attachment may be confidential and the subject of
legal professional privilege.  Any disclosure, use, storage or
copying of this email without the consent of the sender is strictly
prohibited.  Please notify the sender immediately if you are not the
intended recipient and then delete the email from your mailbox, and
do not disclose the contents to another person, use, copy or store
the information in any medium.

--- In konyalanguage@yahoogroups.com, star sky <persiabusiness@...>
wrote:
>
> HI, HOW ARE YOU , DEAR FRIEND,
>   I WANT TO LEARN KONYA LANGUAGE , I WILL BE GLAD IF YOU HELP ME.
THANKS.
>   Z.T
>
>  Send instant messages to your online friends
http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com
>

Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com

Hi, All. When last we left our Konya story, I had some small updates
to make. I have yet to make them, but I will do so. In the meantime,
here is something new that I've been working on: Elomi
(http://ca.geocities.com/handydad/elomi/elomi-main.html).

I've always liked the sound of Hawai'ian and other Polynesian
languages, but had never thought of a way to achieve something like
it in a self-segregating morphology with the clear-cut compounding
mechanisms that I prefer. Now I think I have.

Elomi's genesis lies within Konya but it is quite a different
language. It is even more vowel-y. Its morphology is even simpler. It
is strongly head-initial. And I think it is prettier, more appealing,
though at the cost, sometimes, of some extra syllables.

For a while at least, I intend to pursue Konya and Elomi in parallel.
Every construct that gets thought of for one probably needs a
counterpart in the other.

The Elomi web site is nearly identical to that of Konya, and I have
created a Yahoo group (linkable from the web site). I invite your
comments and critiques there. Given that you have background in
Konya, you might want to start with the Elomi Babel text page to get
an immediate sense of the languages compared.

I look forward to hearing from you all.

---larry

On Wed, 12 Oct 2005, Jim Henry wrote:
>
> On 10/11/05, Yahya Abdal-Aziz <yahya@...> wrote:
>
> > From reading the (latest) Konya description, I expected
> > it to have exactly four semantic categories with
> > corresponding lexical classes.  Jim's message suggests
> > that Konya now has only three.  Could it be that we will
> > discover a need to make the number five, say, or seven?
>
> I was misremembering based on some of Larry's
> last messages in that earlier thread, not having
> had time recently to read the entire revised
> Konya 037 document.  So there are four categories
> after all.  If you think there might should be five
> or more, what are the additional ones you would
> add?  (At one point I might have suggested
> five categories, dividing processes and verbs
> into transitive and intransitive.)
>
> I will try to find time soon to read the entire
> Konya document again, and see what all
> has changed since I last read it in its entirety.
> But I have some urgent stuff to do in the
> next few days so it may not be _very_ soon.
>
> Jim Henry

That's cool, Jim; I know the feeling! :-)  And
I'm taking my time with Konya at the moment,
to let it all seep in a bit more.

Offhand, I can't see any need for more categories.
I think the primary category was probably "verb",
and that others sort of crystallised out of the
continued use of the first (verb) words ...  So a
scheme that allows for anything more than "verb"
and "noun" already seems quite ... lush! to me.

Regards,
Yahya

--
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Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
Version: 7.0.344 / Virus Database: 267.11.13/126 - Release Date: 9/10/05

On 10/11/05, Yahya Abdal-Aziz <yahya@...> wrote:

> From reading the (latest) Konya description, I expected
> it to have exactly four semantic categories with
> corresponding lexical classes.  Jim's message suggests
> that Konya now has only three.  Could it be that we will
> discover a need to make the number five, say, or seven?

I was misremembering based on some of Larry's
last messages in that earlier thread, not having
had time recently to read the entire revised
Konya 037 document.  So there are four categories
after all.  If you think there might should be five
or more, what are the additional ones you would
add?  (At one point I might have suggested
five categories, dividing processes and verbs
into transitive and intransitive.)

I will try to find time soon to read the entire
Konya document again, and see what all
has changed since I last read it in its entirety.
But I have some urgent stuff to do in the
next few days so it may not be _very_ soon.

--
Jim Henry
http://www.pobox.com/~jimhenry/review/log.htm
...Mind the gmail Reply-to: field

Hi all,

On Mon, 10 Oct 2005, Jim Henry wrote:
> On 10/10/05, Yahya Abdal-Aziz <yahya@...> wrote:
> > > 3) So let's use the final vowel as a lexical class marker.
> > Here I have a problem.  Does this perhaps imply that the
> > number of lexical classes must equal the number of vowels
> > in the phoneme inventory?  If so, are we sure that gives us
> > enough lexical classes to construct almost any interesting
> > utterance?
>
> If you look back in the group archives, you'll see
> we talked about a possible scheme with four semantic
> categories (substance, action/process, relationship,
> and quality) which correspond to four "parts of
> speech", noun, verb, preposition, and adjective/adverb.
> But I think Larry finally went with a simpler scheme
> that folds relationships into the other categories.
>
> Jim Henry

Thanks for this, Jim.

On joining the list, I scanned the messages page and
discovered that the list has been running since March.
Rather than read the entire archive, I chose to start at
the beginning of September, hoping this way to avoid
discussing any dead issues.  Of course, in doing so I
accepted the risk that I would reopen old issues in
ignorance of the previous discussion and conclusions.

From reading the (latest) Konya description, I expected
it to have exactly four semantic categories with
corresponding lexical classes.  Jim's message suggests
that Konya now has only three.  Could it be that we will
discover a need to make the number five, say, or seven?
Unless we can definitively fix the number of categories
AND match it to the number of available vowels, it
seems likely to me that we may either have a category
we can't express, or a potential waste of a significant
fraction of the possible shorter morphemes.

For your consideration:  Perhaps this one-to-one
mapping of vowels and semantic classes is not quite
flexible enough?

Regards,
Yahya

--
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--- In konyalanguage@yahoogroups.com, "Yahya Abdal-Aziz" <yahya@m...>
wrote:
>
>
> > "yahya_melb" <yahya@m...> wrote:
> > > "HandyDad" <lsulky@r...> wrote:

---SNIP---

> It's a neat scheme, that clearly distinguishes these words by their
> phonetics.  When generating these functionals, would it be
practical
> to also retain the vowel that marks the lexical class? eg sinye ->
sye,
> minwi -> mwi ?
>

Perhaps, and I would be open to "back-forming" the full forms from
the more convenient and cleverly chosen contracted forms. "mwi" might
not be optimal for so commonly used a word as 'me', just because it's
a touch more difficult to pronounce, I think, than some other
available combinations.

---SNIP---
>
> And it would be even better if there was an agreed method for
> generating the functional from the long form, for example the kind
> of contraction or deletion rule given in my examples above.  Then
> Konya speakers would have a productive rule that they could apply
> to generate new words whenever occasion demanded.  Of course,
> a deletion rule, as in my example, would in turn exert pressure on
the
> possible choices of root words; it would be preferable if any
listener
> could say with authority: "Ah! 'sye' has the CSV pattern, so it must
> be a contraction of 'sinye'."
>

That would be ideal, and Jim has led the charge on productive rules.
But it might be difficult to achieve in this case. For example, we
could say:

* CinSV contracts to CSV

For example: "kinye" => "kye".

But then we have no room left to cover the other three possible
stressed vowels, "e", "o", and "u". Or we could consider letting
lexical class go (assuming that one would have to memorise it). Then
we could have:

* CV1nSV2 contracts to CSV1

For example: "konye" => "kyo"; "lunyo" => "lyu"; "punwi" => "pwu".

Even here, though, it means that we can only contract words that
started out as short lexicals anyway. So the horrid 4-syllable word
for the adverb of place 'here' remains with us.

Perhaps we can only afford a mnemonic relationship, but not a
productive rule.

---L

--- In konyalanguage@yahoogroups.com, Jim Henry <jimhenry1973@g...>
wrote:
>
> On 9/28/05, HandyDad <lsulky@r...> wrote:
>
> hyphen.) So in addition to "yo"
> > and "kayo", for example, we could also have "kyo" and "nakyo".
> >
> > This significantly increases the number of single-syllable
functionals available, which in
> > turn makes it possible to handle some word classes as functionals
that I currently handle
> > otherwise. I wouldn't mind making personal pronouns,
demonstrative pronouns, and
> > interjections into functionals, for example.
>
> That sounds like a good idea.  The only thing I don't
> like about Konya-2 (I haven't had time to look at
> it very much yet) is the disyllabic pronouns.
>

The extended use of functional forms for common lexicals, especially
personal pronouns and demonstrative adjectives, should help with
this. Version 038 (yet to be posted) is shaping up more nicely in
this regard.

---L

--- In konyalanguage@yahoogroups.com, Jim Henry <jimhenry1973@g...>
wrote:
>
> On 10/10/05, Yahya Abdal-Aziz <yahya@m...> wrote:
>
> > > 3) So let's use the final vowel as a lexical class marker.
> > Here I have a problem.  Does this perhaps imply that the
> > number of lexical classes must equal the number of vowels
> > in the phoneme inventory?  If so, are we sure that gives us
> > enough lexical classes to construct almost any interesting
> > utterance?
>

In fact, we don't have enough. Names take a two-letter marker, "ya",
and in version 037 I have invented the interjection/qualifier, which
takes the two-letter marker "ye".

I'm not entirely satisfied with the interjection/qualifier, though.
It seems to occupy a midpoint between functional and lexical. It has
lexical relatives in the other classes, but, like a functional, it
has special properties, chief among them that it serves to modify
precisely what has preceded it, rather than the most recent headword
(noun or verb). I wonder if we wouldn't be better off just having
them as functionals and, if we need related lexicals, just build them
off the functionals, which can take classifier suffixes as easily as
lexicals can.

Any class of words that is very small needs to be looked at as a
candidate for functional class rather than lexical.

> If you look back in the group archives, you'll see
> we talked about a possible scheme with four semantic
> categories (substance, action/process, relationship,
> and quality) which correspond to four "parts of
> speech", noun, verb, preposition, and adjective/adverb.
> But I think Larry finally went with a simpler scheme
> that folds relationships into the other categories.
>

No, or if I did, I didn't mean to. We have -i for nouns, -u for
verbs, -o for prepositions, and -e for adjectives/adverbs. Doi bu doi?

We had also, even a bit earlier, discussed order of preference for
selecting the natural class of a lexical root. I don't remember for
certain the order, but the order that lately seems to be the most
effective is:

1) preposition
2) verb
3) modifier (adjective/adverb)
4) noun

Despite this preference, most words come out as nouns, though.

--larry

P.S. Jim, has anybody heard anything from Jeff Henning? I've emailed
him and put out an APB on some newsgroups. langmaker.com is at least
2 months stagnant. Not a peep.

On 10/10/05, Yahya Abdal-Aziz <yahya@...> wrote:

> > 3) So let's use the final vowel as a lexical class marker.
> Here I have a problem.  Does this perhaps imply that the
> number of lexical classes must equal the number of vowels
> in the phoneme inventory?  If so, are we sure that gives us
> enough lexical classes to construct almost any interesting
> utterance?

If you look back in the group archives, you'll see
we talked about a possible scheme with four semantic
categories (substance, action/process, relationship,
and quality) which correspond to four "parts of
speech", noun, verb, preposition, and adjective/adverb.
But I think Larry finally went with a simpler scheme
that folds relationships into the other categories.

--
Jim Henry
http://www.pobox.com/~jimhenry/review/log.htm
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On 9/19/05, HandyDad <lsulky@...> wrote:
> --- In konyalanguage@yahoogroups.com, "ansric" <ansric@y...> wrote:
> > --- In konyalanguage@yahoogroups.com, "HandyDad" <lsulky@r...> wrote:

> > > 1) "kon-pan-tixun-wi" for 'student' is way ugly. Do we really need
> > to
> > > build 'learn' from 'teach' or vice versa? Is the 'opposite'
> > > marker "pa" appropriate for this use? How many verb pairs like this
> > > are there, anyway?

> > Rick Morneau has a lot to say about "opposites," and while some of it
> > is hair-splitting, the opposite of teaching would be sucking
> > knowledge out of someone's brain. (Imagine a kid watching TV over
> > summer vacation.) The relationship between teaching and learning is
> > more reciprocal.


> > forms for some mal- words (though even Eo doesn't have ?malinstrui
> > for lerni), though there is also more pressure to use such extra
> > forms. A course between Eo and Ido would be wise.

A more logical way of deriving one
from the other would be something like
"lernigi" for "to teach".  I did something like
this in gzb, though the affix is not a simple
causative; it indicates attempting to effect
something and is unmarked for whether the
attempt is successful or not.

--
Jim Henry
http://www.pobox.com/~jimhenry/conlang.htm
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