Greeting Dan, LUGs,

We use MS Office at work, and decided to give OpenOffice.org (for Windows) a
try.  A few of us used it exclusively for a few days instead of MS Office.
Briefly, here's what we found.

Our tests were limited to Write (Word replacement) and Calc (Excel
replacement).

Compatibility:

We found that Write and Calc were both able to successfully open all Word
and Excel documents we tried, even complex ones.  However, when we printed
documents in Write, we found that some of the field codes were interpreted
differently, but more seriously, there were some nasty rendering bugs that
caused text to overlay pictures, and appear at unusual font sizes.

Stability:

As long as we were dealing strictly with Write and Calc files, there did not
seem to be any stability problems.  However, when working with Word and
Excel files, the programs crashed several times either during document load,
or save.

Conclusion:

The compatibility and stability problems prohibit us from switching from MS
Office company-wide at this time.  However, we have made the decision not to
opt for the MS subscription, since OpenOffice shows sufficient promise that
once the bugs have been ironed out, we should be able to switch to it.

Regards,
Dafydd.


----- Original Message -----
From: "Dan Kegel" <dank@...>
To: "lula" <lula@...>; <lilax-l@...>; <lalugs@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, May 22, 2002 12:37 AM
Subject: Let's have some Microsoft Office users try Open Office...

> Businesses all over are being forced to decide whether to commit to
> Microsoft's "Licensing 6.0" plan, which raises the
> costs of using Microsoft software substantially.
> (See http://www.microsoft.com/licensing/ ,
> http://www.sunbelt-software.com/survey_02mar.cfm , and
> http://www.hardwarecentral.com/hardwarecentral/editorials/4153/1/ )
>
> To help educate businesses about alternatives, Lula is
> planning to do a presentation about how businesses
> can use Open Office and/or Star Office to replace
> Microsoft Office, and avoid the "Licensing 6.0" fees
> without sacrificing convenience or quality.
>
> I just loaded up Open Office 1.0 on my wife's computer,
> and she was impressed; at least on first glance, it
> supported all her complicated Word documents well.
> But we need more than one person, and more than one
> hour, of experience *from the point of view of heavy
> Microsoft Office users* before we say Open Office can do it all.
> So let's put it to the test:
> Who here uses Microsoft Windows and Microsoft Office at work?
> Can those people try using Open Office 1.0
> instead for a day, and report back?
> And then report again at the end of five days?
> It'd be very interesting to see what percentage of Microsoft Office
> users were happy with Open Office at the end of a week.
> - Dan
>
> p.s. A few links on the topic:
> http://people.trustcommerce.com/~adam/office.html
>
http://techupdate.zdnet.com/techupdate/stories/main/0,14179,2865704,00.html
>
http://techupdate.zdnet.com/techupdate/stories/main/0,14179,2865769,00.html
> http://www.linuxworld.com/site-stories/2001/1018.tco.html
> http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/5/25148.html
>

Thanks for the info, Dafydd.
There is an open crash bug report on Write
( http://www.openoffice.org/issues/show_bug.cgi?id=4386 ;
login might be required to view that page)
but none yet on Calc.  Do you have any documents that
reliably cause crashes that you'd be willing to share?
I'd be happy to help push for a fix for those crashes.
Cheers,
Dan

Dafydd Walters wrote:
>
> Greeting Dan, LUGs,
>
> We use MS Office at work, and decided to give OpenOffice.org (for Windows) a
> try.  A few of us used it exclusively for a few days instead of MS Office.
> Briefly, here's what we found.
>
> Our tests were limited to Write (Word replacement) and Calc (Excel
> replacement).
>
> Compatibility:
>
> We found that Write and Calc were both able to successfully open all Word
> and Excel documents we tried, even complex ones.  However, when we printed
> documents in Write, we found that some of the field codes were interpreted
> differently, but more seriously, there were some nasty rendering bugs that
> caused text to overlay pictures, and appear at unusual font sizes.
>
> Stability:
>
> As long as we were dealing strictly with Write and Calc files, there did not
> seem to be any stability problems.  However, when working with Word and
> Excel files, the programs crashed several times either during document load,
> or save.
>
> Conclusion:
>
> The compatibility and stability problems prohibit us from switching from MS
> Office company-wide at this time.  However, we have made the decision not to
> opt for the MS subscription, since OpenOffice shows sufficient promise that
> once the bugs have been ironed out, we should be able to switch to it.
>
> Regards,
> Dafydd.

Dafydd,

Just out of curiousity, what version did
you evaluate.  Was it the StarOffice Beta, or
did you use OpenOffice?

As a side note to those that are going to take up Dan's challenge and
evaluate it for several days.  I know that being able to use Microsoft's
formats will be important, but I think evaluating its usefulness with
it's own built-in formats is also very important.  At our work, we are
evaluating it on it's ability to DISPLAY Word and Excel files.  Any
modification or new documents will be saved in the StarOffice/OpenOffice
native format.  Part of the point is not just having a cheaper office
suite, but having open file formats.

-Jim

Dan,

We have decided not to sign up for Software Assurance 6.0 and are
evaluating StarOffice.

I'll let you know how it goes.

If anyone is willing to write an extensive review with all the
positives/negatives, and workaround solutions please let me know.
I am starting a web site providing information on alternatives to
Microsoft software, and am looking for contributions.  Please contact
me if you are interested in contributing.

-Jim

> Just out of curiosity, what version did
> you evaluate.  Was it the StarOffice Beta, or
> did you use OpenOffice?

We were testing OpenOffice.org 1.0.

----- Original Message -----
From: "J. Lucha" <jim@...>
To: <lalugs@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, May 22, 2002 11:17 PM
Subject: Re: [lalugs] Re: Let's have some Microsoft Office users try Open
Office...


> Dafydd,
>
> Just out of curiousity, what version did
> you evaluate.  Was it the StarOffice Beta, or
> did you use OpenOffice?
>
> As a side note to those that are going to take up Dan's challenge and
> evaluate it for several days.  I know that being able to use Microsoft's
> formats will be important, but I think evaluating its usefulness with
> it's own built-in formats is also very important.  At our work, we are
> evaluating it on it's ability to DISPLAY Word and Excel files.  Any
> modification or new documents will be saved in the StarOffice/OpenOffice
> native format.  Part of the point is not just having a cheaper office
> suite, but having open file formats.
>
> -Jim
>
>
>
> Los Angeles Linux User Groups
> http://www.lalugs.org
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>

Friends of the Lizard are invited to a party tonight to celebrate
its coming of age!

  What: Los Angeles Area Mozilla 1.0 Release Party
  When: 6-10PM, Saturday, 15 June 2002
  Where: Renee's Courtyard Cafe, 522 Wilshire Blvd, Santa Monica, CA 90401
  Mailing List: groups.yahoo.com/group/MozPartyLA/
  URL: http://www.lalugs.org/mozparty/

See you there!
- Dan

Hi all,

I just thought I would relay some info we ran into while using
the {open,star}office suites.

1.  If you open up a word document and the fonts look really bad, there
is a good chance that you don't have the font installed on your system
that the auther used when they created it.  This is especially true
under Linux.  We discovered this when I opened a document, and thought
the auther was nuts, but later when a coworker opened it using the
Windows version, it looked fine.  If I copied the fonts from his system
and incorporated them into my font server, then the document looked
fine.  There are a set of fonts that most windows users have because it
is available under Windows Update, or if you install a newer version of
IE, called 'Core Web Fonts' or something like that.  Microsoft actually
provides them for free.  Installing these fonts improved the appearance
of several of the Word documents we receive from outside sources.

2.  This is a major annoyance.  There is NO macro recorder.  You can
create macros, but you have to hand code using their StarBasic scripting
language.  Just what I wanted to do; spend time learning yet another
language!

That's it for now..I'll keep everyone posted.

-Jim
--
James Lucha
E-Mail: jim@...

"Linux: Because rebooting is for adding new hardware"

Hello friends,
If you are interested in passing IT exams like MCSE,MCSA, CCNA, CCNP,
OCP, JAVA on your first try then you can download 100% passing
guaranteed real exam questions of these certifications from
www.itcertifications.onmyowninter.net

All Questions are actual exam questions and you wont find even a
single Q outside of these stuffs in the actual exam. Though, the
answers are not 100 % correct, they are 85-95% correct, more than
sufficient to pass the exam

someone (posibly Dan) mentioned someone wrote up some form letters for meeting
announcements, and other types of LUG related events. Did i imagine this? if not
where can the forms be found? thanks

--
Chris Scheller
http://www.pobox.com/~schelcj/

Chris Scheller wrote:
> someone (posibly Dan) mentioned someone wrote up some form letters for meeting
> announcements, and other types of LUG related events. Did i imagine this? if
not
> where can the forms be found?

The announcement page was identical to the announcement email.
I always just used the previous month's as a template, e.g.
http://lula.org/event_notes/2002-05/index.html

I don't think anyone ever put together anything more general.
- Dan

hi,

i'd like to point out that tonight it's again time
for the great Dr K Linux show.

tune your realplayer to
http://pub.us.mandrakesoft.com:8080/ramgen/encoder/live.rm
at 7pm pacific for the live broadcast.


i'd also like to invite everyone to join me on irc
on irc.openprojects.net on channel #lalugs
during the show to chat and comment the show as we watch...

lets give Dr K some feedback...


if you missed the show, then you'll find the archived broadcast
on www.lpbn.org soon after the end of the live broadcast.


greetings, martin.
ps(0): you may forward this to lug lists as you see fit...
ps(1): i have no relation to the Dr K Linux show other than maybe
being the most distant viewer, and the only one crazy enough to
stay up until 5am just to see the show live :-)
ps(2): ismet, i hope you don't mind me doing this announcement
ps(3): would anyone like to see announcements like this on a regular basis?
--
looking for a job anywhere in the world, doing pike programming, sTeam/caudium
/pike/roxen training, sTeam/caudium/roxen and/or unix system administration.
--
pike programmer     open-steam.org     (www.archlab|(www|db).hb2).tuwien.ac.at
unix                (iaeste|bahai).or.at                   iaeste.tuwien.ac.at
systemadministrator (stuts|black.linux-m68k).org        is.(schon.org|root.at)
Martin B"ahr        http://www.iaeste.or.at/~mbaehr/

Sorry - had to go to a summer re-run for this evening. Will be back live
next week.

Ismet

  ps(0): you may forward this to lug lists as you see fit...
> ps(1): i have no relation to the Dr K Linux show other than maybe
> being the most distant viewer, and the only one crazy enough to
> stay up until 5am just to see the show live :-)
> ps(2): ismet, i hope you don't mind me doing this announcement
> ps(3): would anyone like to see announcements like this on a regular basis?
>

Greetings everyone,
I wanted to inform everyone that the USCLUG, UCLALUG, and SCLUGs have
teamed up to bring a Linux expo to Southern California.  More
information on the event can be found at http://www.socallinuxexpo.com.

What this means for the various LA LUGs.  As the vendor/booth chair I
am inviting every LUG to attend and present themselves.  Let people
know about their LUG, etc.  Booth space will be provided for each LUG
that wants to partake in this.  Additionally we're encouraging LUGs to
demonstration particular applications that they feel are worth seeing
but may not get much attention.

What we ask from the LUGs that wish to participate.  Please email me
(gareth@...) stating that your LUG wishes to participate, who
from the LUG will be manning the booth and any applications you'll be
showing off.  Not to rush things but the sooner the better.

Please feel free to pass this along to respective LUG mailing lists.


						 Gareth J. Greenaway
						 SCLUG

--
"I'm a 21st century digital boy, I don't know how to live but i've got
a lot of toys."
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Gareth J. Greenaway
gareth@...

----- Forwarded message from Jack Denman <cashmere@...> -----

From: Jack Denman <cashmere@...>
To: gareth@...
Subject: Please forward this
Date: Thu, 29 Aug 2002 16:06:58 -0700

Gareth,

I am sending you a message that I sent to the Orange County Linux Users Group.

Would you please forward this message to the LA group. I think that we have
something to contribute to the advancement to Linux among the desktop
corporate users and some momey that they can save.

********************************************************************************\
***********************
I want to introduce myself to the group. I attended your last meeting. I
received a warm welcome from those I spoke with. I will be there (God
willing) for your next meeting.

I am teaching the Linux Internship class at TechConsults in Irvine. The school
is an extension of Cal-Poly University The training center prepares people
for certification in Oracle, Java and others.

http://www.techconsults.net/

We are planning training for Linux Certifications and an outsource
organization to migrate corporations and other large IT departments from
Windows to Linux. We feel that the time is right for Linux to come to the
desktop. The tiered services we are planning to offer are:

1.Migration to Linux including the data
2.Training and certifications
3.System Maintenance

I spoke with the head IT person at the City of Garden Grove this last week.
They switched to Linux in 1995 and never looked back. An outside vendor had
given them a quote to convert the police station to an all windows platform
for one million dollars. The city rejected the bid and they installed Linux
for 300,000 and most of that was for the wiring.

People from LUG are using open office as a rule. This may be the way to go for
them, but 100% compliance with MS Office would have a better appeal to
corporations who are addicted to Windows. We are evaluating Star Office 6.0
to see how much compliance there is on this release. SUN has made the claim
that it is fully compliant. The people at SuSe have told me that they are NOT
going to enforce the license. The City of Garden Grove aggrees with us on
this matter, the compliance with MS Office, at least for the present.

We believe with good reason that Windows requires a larger IT staff than
Linux. We do not have the hard evidence to present to prospective clients. My
job this last week was to obtain comparative cost savings using Linux. The
data is simply not available.

In order to get clients and to establish a good reputation, along with a
better system, we are prepared to:

1.Migrate the first customers at no cost of the labor or a money back
guarantee if the customer is satisfied
2.Give seminars on Linux and the benefits of stability, lower cost and higher
security to the customers.

Right now we are looking for potential customers. The time has never been
better for a better system than Windows.

Sincerely;
Jack Denman


----- End forwarded message -----

--
"I'm a 21st century digital boy, I don't know how to live but i've got
a lot of toys."
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Gareth J. Greenaway
gareth@...

Hi Jack,
LULA would probably enjoy a presentation from you.  Maybe you could
give a case study of a windows-to-linux migration you've been involved
in?
Our web site is http://www.lula.org if you want to know more about us.

BTW, I run Linux internships, too.  Check out
http://www.kegel.com/academy/
Might be fun to compare notes.
- Dan

> I am teaching the Linux Internship class at TechConsults in Irvine. The school
> is an extension of Cal-Poly University The training center prepares people
> for certification in Oracle, Java and others.
>
> http://www.techconsults.net/
>
> We are planning training for Linux Certifications and an outsource
> organization to migrate corporations and other large IT departments from
> Windows to Linux. We feel that the time is right for Linux to come to the
> desktop. The tiered services we are planning to offer are:
>
> 1.Migration to Linux including the data
> 2.Training and certifications
> 3.System Maintenance
>
> I spoke with the head IT person at the City of Garden Grove this last week.
> They switched to Linux in 1995 and never looked back. An outside vendor had
> given them a quote to convert the police station to an all windows platform
> for one million dollars. The city rejected the bid and they installed Linux
> for 300,000 and most of that was for the wiring.
>
> People from LUG are using open office as a rule. This may be the way to go for
> them, but 100% compliance with MS Office would have a better appeal to
> corporations who are addicted to Windows. We are evaluating Star Office 6.0
> to see how much compliance there is on this release. SUN has made the claim
> that it is fully compliant. The people at SuSe have told me that they are NOT
> going to enforce the license. The City of Garden Grove aggrees with us on
> this matter, the compliance with MS Office, at least for the present.
>
> We believe with good reason that Windows requires a larger IT staff than
> Linux. We do not have the hard evidence to present to prospective clients. My
> job this last week was to obtain comparative cost savings using Linux. The
> data is simply not available.
>
> In order to get clients and to establish a good reputation, along with a
> better system, we are prepared to:
>
> 1.Migrate the first customers at no cost of the labor or a money back
> guarantee if the customer is satisfied
> 2.Give seminars on Linux and the benefits of stability, lower cost and higher
> security to the customers.
>
> Right now we are looking for potential customers. The time has never been
> better for a better system than Windows.
>
> Sincerely;
> Jack Denman
>

Got it.  BTW I'm working on a white paper on why
universities to start the switch; see
   http://kegel.com/linux/edu/
Once that's in place, I hope to try it out on UCLA and USC.

Would you be interested in doing a joint presentation
at, say, UCLA, aimed at coaxing them into supporting
Linux more widely?
- Dan

Jack Denman wrote:
> People have made the migration but TechConsults has yet to do one. Red Hat is
aiming for
> the desktop at years end. Since we already have a training center, we have
part of our
> business plan in place. We are getting some leads from various people. Right
now we are
> setting up a network, 3 workstations, mail server, database and Open Office,
Star
> Office6.0, and evolution. Walt, a lawyer and the head of the San Diego Linux
Users Group,
> wanted a network set up so that the press and other interested parties could
see how it
> works. The price of MS Office is 425 (each) and XP at 150 (each) for the
enterprise. We
> might not be able to replace all the windows  software right away but some
customers are
> going to save a lot of money. We need to get the word out and to have people
look at a
> working open source system that can do the work of windows at a much lower
cost.
>
> Jack Denman
>
> At 07:44 AM 9/4/2002, Dan Kegel wrote:
> >Hi Jack,
> >LULA would probably enjoy a presentation from you.  Maybe you could
> >give a case study of a windows-to-linux migration you've been involved
> >in?
> >Our web site is http://www.lula.org if you want to know more about us.
> >
> >BTW, I run Linux internships, too.  Check out
> >http://www.kegel.com/academy/
> >Might be fun to compare notes.
> >- Dan
> >
> > > I am teaching the Linux Internship class at TechConsults in Irvine. The
school
> > > is an extension of Cal-Poly University The training center prepares people
> > > for certification in Oracle, Java and others.
> > >
> > > http://www.techconsults.net/
> > >
> > > We are planning training for Linux Certifications and an outsource
> > > organization to migrate corporations and other large IT departments from
> > > Windows to Linux. We feel that the time is right for Linux to come to the
> > > desktop. The tiered services we are planning to offer are:
> > >
> > > 1.Migration to Linux including the data
> > > 2.Training and certifications
> > > 3.System Maintenance
> > >
> > > I spoke with the head IT person at the City of Garden Grove this last
week.
> > > They switched to Linux in 1995 and never looked back. An outside vendor
had
> > > given them a quote to convert the police station to an all windows
platform
> > > for one million dollars. The city rejected the bid and they installed
Linux
> > > for 300,000 and most of that was for the wiring.
> > >
> > > People from LUG are using open office as a rule. This may be the way to go
for
> > > them, but 100% compliance with MS Office would have a better appeal to
> > > corporations who are addicted to Windows. We are evaluating Star Office
6.0
> > > to see how much compliance there is on this release. SUN has made the
claim
> > > that it is fully compliant. The people at SuSe have told me that they are
NOT
> > > going to enforce the license. The City of Garden Grove aggrees with us on
> > > this matter, the compliance with MS Office, at least for the present.
> > >
> > > We believe with good reason that Windows requires a larger IT staff than
> > > Linux. We do not have the hard evidence to present to prospective clients.
My
> > > job this last week was to obtain comparative cost savings using Linux. The
> > > data is simply not available.
> > >
> > > In order to get clients and to establish a good reputation, along with a
> > > better system, we are prepared to:
> > >
> > > 1.Migrate the first customers at no cost of the labor or a money back
> > > guarantee if the customer is satisfied
> > > 2.Give seminars on Linux and the benefits of stability, lower cost and
higher
> > > security to the customers.
> > >
> > > Right now we are looking for potential customers. The time has never been
> > > better for a better system than Windows.

Pitch this to CSUN too. This semester they've switched a lab from 2000
to XP and the 2nd unix lab has been transformed to 2000.  We're down to
one un*x lab.


							 Gareth

On Fri, Sep 06, 2002 at 03:29:57PM -0700, Dan Kegel wrote:
> Got it.  BTW I'm working on a white paper on why
> universities to start the switch; see
>   http://kegel.com/linux/edu/
> Once that's in place, I hope to try it out on UCLA and USC.
>
> Would you be interested in doing a joint presentation
> at, say, UCLA, aimed at coaxing them into supporting
> Linux more widely?
> - Dan
>
> Jack Denman wrote:
> > People have made the migration but TechConsults has yet to do one. Red Hat
is aiming for
> > the desktop at years end. Since we already have a training center, we have
part of our
> > business plan in place. We are getting some leads from various people. Right
now we are
> > setting up a network, 3 workstations, mail server, database and Open Office,
Star
> > Office6.0, and evolution. Walt, a lawyer and the head of the San Diego Linux
Users Group,
> > wanted a network set up so that the press and other interested parties could
see how it
> > works. The price of MS Office is 425 (each) and XP at 150 (each) for the
enterprise. We
> > might not be able to replace all the windows  software right away but some
customers are
> > going to save a lot of money. We need to get the word out and to have people
look at a
> > working open source system that can do the work of windows at a much lower
cost.
> >
> > Jack Denman
> >
> > At 07:44 AM 9/4/2002, Dan Kegel wrote:
> > >Hi Jack,
> > >LULA would probably enjoy a presentation from you.  Maybe you could
> > >give a case study of a windows-to-linux migration you've been involved
> > >in?
> > >Our web site is http://www.lula.org if you want to know more about us.
> > >
> > >BTW, I run Linux internships, too.  Check out
> > >http://www.kegel.com/academy/
> > >Might be fun to compare notes.
> > >- Dan
> > >
> > > > I am teaching the Linux Internship class at TechConsults in Irvine. The
school
> > > > is an extension of Cal-Poly University The training center prepares
people
> > > > for certification in Oracle, Java and others.
> > > >
> > > > http://www.techconsults.net/
> > > >
> > > > We are planning training for Linux Certifications and an outsource
> > > > organization to migrate corporations and other large IT departments from
> > > > Windows to Linux. We feel that the time is right for Linux to come to
the
> > > > desktop. The tiered services we are planning to offer are:
> > > >
> > > > 1.Migration to Linux including the data
> > > > 2.Training and certifications
> > > > 3.System Maintenance
> > > >
> > > > I spoke with the head IT person at the City of Garden Grove this last
week.
> > > > They switched to Linux in 1995 and never looked back. An outside vendor
had
> > > > given them a quote to convert the police station to an all windows
platform
> > > > for one million dollars. The city rejected the bid and they installed
Linux
> > > > for 300,000 and most of that was for the wiring.
> > > >
> > > > People from LUG are using open office as a rule. This may be the way to
go for
> > > > them, but 100% compliance with MS Office would have a better appeal to
> > > > corporations who are addicted to Windows. We are evaluating Star Office
6.0
> > > > to see how much compliance there is on this release. SUN has made the
claim
> > > > that it is fully compliant. The people at SuSe have told me that they
are NOT
> > > > going to enforce the license. The City of Garden Grove aggrees with us
on
> > > > this matter, the compliance with MS Office, at least for the present.
> > > >
> > > > We believe with good reason that Windows requires a larger IT staff than
> > > > Linux. We do not have the hard evidence to present to prospective
clients. My
> > > > job this last week was to obtain comparative cost savings using Linux.
The
> > > > data is simply not available.
> > > >
> > > > In order to get clients and to establish a good reputation, along with a
> > > > better system, we are prepared to:
> > > >
> > > > 1.Migrate the first customers at no cost of the labor or a money back
> > > > guarantee if the customer is satisfied
> > > > 2.Give seminars on Linux and the benefits of stability, lower cost and
higher
> > > > security to the customers.
> > > >
> > > > Right now we are looking for potential customers. The time has never
been
> > > > better for a better system than Windows.
>
>
> Los Angeles Linux User Groups
> http://www.lalugs.org
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>

--
"I'm a 21st century digital boy, I don't know how to live but i've got
a lot of toys."
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Gareth J. Greenaway
gareth@...

OK; we'll need some help getting a foot in the door, though.

I suppose this would make a good presentation at the LA Linux Expo...
- Dan

gareth@... wrote:
>
> Pitch this to CSUN too. This semester they've switched a lab from 2000
> to XP and the 2nd unix lab has been transformed to 2000.  We're down to
> one un*x lab.
>
>                                                         Gareth
>
> On Fri, Sep 06, 2002 at 03:29:57PM -0700, Dan Kegel wrote:
> > Got it.  BTW I'm working on a white paper on why
> > universities to start the switch; see
> >   http://kegel.com/linux/edu/
> > Once that's in place, I hope to try it out on UCLA and USC.
> >
> > Would you be interested in doing a joint presentation
> > at, say, UCLA, aimed at coaxing them into supporting
> > Linux more widely?
> > - Dan
> >
> > Jack Denman wrote:
> > > People have made the migration but TechConsults has yet to do one. Red Hat
is aiming for
> > > the desktop at years end. Since we already have a training center, we have
part of our
> > > business plan in place. We are getting some leads from various people.
Right now we are
> > > setting up a network, 3 workstations, mail server, database and Open
Office, Star
> > > Office6.0, and evolution. Walt, a lawyer and the head of the San Diego
Linux Users Group,
> > > wanted a network set up so that the press and other interested parties
could see how it
> > > works. The price of MS Office is 425 (each) and XP at 150 (each) for the
enterprise. We
> > > might not be able to replace all the windows  software right away but some
customers are
> > > going to save a lot of money. We need to get the word out and to have
people look at a
> > > working open source system that can do the work of windows at a much lower
cost.
> > >
> > > Jack Denman
> > >
> > > At 07:44 AM 9/4/2002, Dan Kegel wrote:
> > > >Hi Jack,
> > > >LULA would probably enjoy a presentation from you.  Maybe you could
> > > >give a case study of a windows-to-linux migration you've been involved
> > > >in?
> > > >Our web site is http://www.lula.org if you want to know more about us.
> > > >
> > > >BTW, I run Linux internships, too.  Check out
> > > >http://www.kegel.com/academy/
> > > >Might be fun to compare notes.
> > > >- Dan
> > > >
> > > > > I am teaching the Linux Internship class at TechConsults in Irvine.
The school
> > > > > is an extension of Cal-Poly University The training center prepares
people
> > > > > for certification in Oracle, Java and others.
> > > > >
> > > > > http://www.techconsults.net/
> > > > >
> > > > > We are planning training for Linux Certifications and an outsource
> > > > > organization to migrate corporations and other large IT departments
from
> > > > > Windows to Linux. We feel that the time is right for Linux to come to
the
> > > > > desktop. The tiered services we are planning to offer are:
> > > > >
> > > > > 1.Migration to Linux including the data
> > > > > 2.Training and certifications
> > > > > 3.System Maintenance
> > > > >
> > > > > I spoke with the head IT person at the City of Garden Grove this last
week.
> > > > > They switched to Linux in 1995 and never looked back. An outside
vendor had
> > > > > given them a quote to convert the police station to an all windows
platform
> > > > > for one million dollars. The city rejected the bid and they installed
Linux
> > > > > for 300,000 and most of that was for the wiring.
> > > > >
> > > > > People from LUG are using open office as a rule. This may be the way
to go for
> > > > > them, but 100% compliance with MS Office would have a better appeal to
> > > > > corporations who are addicted to Windows. We are evaluating Star
Office 6.0
> > > > > to see how much compliance there is on this release. SUN has made the
claim
> > > > > that it is fully compliant. The people at SuSe have told me that they
are NOT
> > > > > going to enforce the license. The City of Garden Grove aggrees with us
on
> > > > > this matter, the compliance with MS Office, at least for the present.
> > > > >
> > > > > We believe with good reason that Windows requires a larger IT staff
than
> > > > > Linux. We do not have the hard evidence to present to prospective
clients. My
> > > > > job this last week was to obtain comparative cost savings using Linux.
The
> > > > > data is simply not available.
> > > > >
> > > > > In order to get clients and to establish a good reputation, along with
a
> > > > > better system, we are prepared to:
> > > > >
> > > > > 1.Migrate the first customers at no cost of the labor or a money back
> > > > > guarantee if the customer is satisfied
> > > > > 2.Give seminars on Linux and the benefits of stability, lower cost and
higher
> > > > > security to the customers.
> > > > >
> > > > > Right now we are looking for potential customers. The time has never
been
> > > > > better for a better system than Windows.
> >
> >
> > Los Angeles Linux User Groups
> > http://www.lalugs.org
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >
>
> --
> "I'm a 21st century digital boy, I don't know how to live but i've got
> a lot of toys."
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Gareth J. Greenaway
> gareth@...
>
>
> Los Angeles Linux User Groups
> http://www.lalugs.org
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

Hey guys.  Its time again for another SCLUG BBQ, we're planning to have
one following the meeting on the 14th of September.  The meeting will
run until 5 or 5:30 then we'll meet up at Orv Beach's house for the BBQ
(directions to follow).  We'll also work out a list of what people
should bring.

All other LALUG members are welcome, so feel free to pass this along to
respective LUGs.


						 Gareth
--
"I'm a 21st century digital boy, I don't know how to live but i've got
a lot of toys."
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Gareth J. Greenaway
gareth@...

gareth@... wrote:

>Hey guys.  Its time again for another SCLUG BBQ, we're planning to have
>one following the meeting on the 14th of September.  The meeting will
>run until 5 or 5:30 then we'll meet up at Orv Beach's house for the BBQ
>(directions to follow).  We'll also work out a list of what people
>should bring.
>
>All other LALUG members are welcome, so feel free to pass this along to
>respective LUGs.
>
>
> 				 Gareth
>
>
Aaarghh!!  Do you know that this conflicts with the LILAX meeting on the
same day?  The meeting features a presentation by Mike Fair and Chris
Smith about their email extravaganza, involving the integration of
Postfix, Cyrus IMAP, SSL Authentication, Spam Assassin,  and I am not
sure what else.

It would be really great if this time conflict could be resolved, so
that people are not forced to choose between these two very attractive
opportunities.

John

On Sat, Sep 07, 2002 at 08:18:39PM -0700, John Wenger wrote:
> gareth@... wrote:
>
> Aaarghh!!  Do you know that this conflicts with the LILAX meeting on the
> same day?  The meeting features a presentation by Mike Fair and Chris
> Smith about their email extravaganza, involving the integration of
> Postfix, Cyrus IMAP, SSL Authentication, Spam Assassin,  and I am not
> sure what else.

We've tried to keep this conflict from happening before but it always
seems to pop up.  The BBQ is after the SCLUG meeting so it wont be
until about 6pm.  It looks like the LILAX meeting ends at 4pm, that
gives you two hours to get to the BBQ.  Could work.

>
> It would be really great if this time conflict could be resolved, so
> that people are not forced to choose between these two very attractive
> opportunities.
>
Again, we've tried to avoid conflicts but they always popup for
whatever reason.


--
"I'm a 21st century digital boy, I don't know how to live but i've got
a lot of toys."
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Gareth J. Greenaway
gareth@...

Okay guys,
more BBQ info can be found at http://www.sclug.org/bbq.cgi.  On a side
note, I discovered that we had a BBQ around this time last year, on the
15th of September.  Kinda eerie.


Note to LILAX members, I realize this is the same day of Mike Fair and
Chris Smith's presentation.  The BBQ doesnt begin until 6pm or until we
get there :)

Again, please pass this along to other LUgs.  All are welcome.


							 Gareth

--
"I'm a 21st century digital boy, I don't know how to live but i've got
a lot of toys."
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Gareth J. Greenaway
gareth@...

Just a reminder, if you are planning to go to the BBQ on Saturday
please RSVP with Orv Beach (orv@...)


						 Gareth

--
"I'm a 21st century digital boy, I don't know how to live but i've got
a lot of toys."
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Gareth J. Greenaway
gareth@...

> *=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-*
> Message:  B0000398005.MSG                      # in packet :#7.
> Date:     08 Sep 2002 22:19:41 -1000
> From:     Warren Togami <warren@...>
> Reply-To: usclug-chat@...
> To:       usclug-chat@...
> Subject:  [usclug-chat] Announcing BrowserAdvocacy project
> --------------------------------------------------------------------
( body of Warren's message below.  Thanks to Warren for permission
to include his post with my announcment.)
--

I couldn't of asked for a better intro to mention a talk I
was recruited to help give (with Tony Butka)
on Sat., 21 Sept. 2002 in Tustin, Orange County, CA
on the Lynx browser.
It's for an OS/2 user group, but large amounts of the content
will be applicable for every platform from Amiga and BeOS
to IBM OS/390 mainframes (I guess that's Z Series now, providing the
proverbial 'A' to 'Z' platform coverage).

Some articles that helped to provoke my involvment:
   http://www.scoug.com/os24u/2001/scoug009.textbrowsers.html
   http://www.columbia.edu/kermit/case20.html
   http://www.columbia.edu/kermit/case24.html


Details on the meeting:
   http://www.scoug.com/meetings.html
General information on SCOUG:
   http://www.scoug.com

We'll probably be discussing
philosophy of text mode browsers,
installation/configuration tips,
fingering shortcuts, image viewer set up,
URL schema supported and
use of EXTERN alternate programs for various URL schema,
b^Hr^He^Ha^Hk^Hi^Hn^Hg^H ^Hi^Hn^Ht^Ho^H
accessing *your* on-line banking account,
handling frames, bypassing javascript and
whatever else we can get around to.

All enthusiasts for alternative operating systems are
welcome to attend the meeting.

If you can't attend, rumor has it Raymond Steding
of http://www.LPBN.org *may* be taping the talk,
in which case it will be available on line.

Feel free to forward this announcement to any where
whatsoever.

Apologies if anyone finds this post inappropriate.

Thanks again, Warren

--

Warren said:

>
>
> http://videl.ics.hawaii.edu/mailman/listinfo/browseradvocacy
> BrowserAdvocacy project discusses issues facing the adoption of
> alternative web browsers - mainly dealing with sites that choose to
> reject visitors based upon user agent for no valid technical reason.
>
> Web browser rejection is among the main factors preventing adoption of
> alternate web browsers.  Most of the time this rejection is completely
> artificial, caused by ignorance in the web designer that other web
> browsers do exist and are of high quality.  In any of these cases, when
> people try to visit and they are told "Upgrade to Internet Explorer",
> they immediately have a negative impression of alternate web browsers
> (and Linux as a desktop.)
>
> This project is an attempt to improve this situation at various sites on
> the Internet through education and advocacy campaigns.  We will organize
> polite letter writing and phone call campaigns educating sites and
> designers as to why they should support alternate web browsers.
> Additionally we will organize educational articles to post at various
> news sites introducing new users to the benefits of alternate browsers,
> like the speed and pop-up protection of Mozilla, Galeon or Opera.  We
> will prioritize our efforts toward larger sites that offer critical or
> popular services, and eventually work our way toward smaller sites.
>
> I have already had success with convincing First Hawaiian Bank Online
> http://www.fhb.com to allow Mozilla into their new online site launching
> September 22nd.  This is one example of a "critical" site, making Linux
> and alternate web browsers inconvenient if you use online banking at
> this bank.
>
> Like usual I am taking on too many projects myself, so I would really
> appreciate if it some people would volunteer to help organize this
> project.  We mainly need content writers and a webmaster.  The following
> content will need to be written:
>
> * Project Home Page
> * Mailing List Policy
> * Status Board - showing current status of all sites identified for
> targeted advocacy
> * Documentation
> ** Why is this a problem? (discrimination, etc.)?
> ** How to identify problem sites?
> ** Sample letters to web designers
> ** Article introducing the benefits of Mozilla to new people
>
> Please let me know if you can help this project.
>
> Thanks,
> Warren Togami
> warren@...
> Mid-Pacific Linux Users Group
> http://www.mplug.org
> Browser Advocacy Project
> http://videl.ics.hawaii.edu/mailman/listinfo/browseradvocacy
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> usclug-chat mailing list
> usclug-chat@...
> http://linux.usc.edu/mailman/listinfo/usclug-chat
>
> --- EOM ---

Regards,
Dallas E. Legan II  /  leganii@...  /  dallasii@...

Powered by......Lynx, the Internet at hyperkinetic speed.

Sorry to everyone about very badly violating
crossposting netiquette that was discussed this very day.
(UUASC list)
mailx does not have a '-bcc' option.
(it's '-b'    :-!)
I need some sleep.

Regards,
Dallas E. Legan II  /  leganii@...  /  dallasii@...

Powered by......Lynx, the Internet at hyperkinetic speed.

Please place this along to any mailing lists that the previous messages
were sent to.

						 Gareth

----- Forwarded message from Orv Beach <orv@...> -----

Subject: Saturday BBQ update
From: Orv Beach <orv@...>
To: Gareth Greenaway <gareth@...>
Date: 11 Sep 2002 22:48:00 -0700

Gareth; please forward as appropriate.
-------------------------------------------

Based on the RSVP's I've gotten so far, all 7 of us will have a good
time Saturday  :-)

Here's who's volunteered to bring what (or what I've volunteered them
for):  If you're coming and your name isn't on this list, drop me an
email and let me know which item you'd like to bring.  (and if I
volunteered you for something, please confirm that you can bring it).


Ice - 3 large bags - Josh Hyman
Pepsi/Coke - 6 6 packs - Frank Moody  (I already have Diet Coke &
Sprite)
Chips (potato & tortilla) - Ron Golan (verify please, Ron; I think you
volunteered for this)
20 Oz cups (two 20 packs or so) - Grendel T. Troll
Hamburger Buns (3 doz) - Jeff Carlson
Hamburger Patties (3 doz)-
Ketchup -
pickle relish -
forks (about 4 doz.) -
plates (divided paper; 3-4 doz.) -
dessert (any kind) -
fruit? -
ice cream? -

I already have:  spoons, knives, guacamole, salsa, bottled water,
napkins, mayo, mustard, cheese for cheeseburgers.

Thanks!

Orv




----- End forwarded message -----

--
"I'm a 21st century digital boy, I don't know how to live but i've got
a lot of toys."
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Gareth J. Greenaway
gareth@...

Greetings,
We would like to extend an invitation to all Linux and open source enthusiasts
to attend the Southern California Linux Expo. This event is being hosted by the
USC LUG, Simi-Conejo Valley LUG and the UCLA LUG.

Currently admission will be around $70 per person.  This will include admission
to the conference, to the exhibit hall, to all the talks and includes a gourmet
buffet lunch.  User groups may contact us to discuss group rates.  This event is
non-proft and all funds go towards the event's expenses.

We are also inviting the various Linux & and other open source OS user groups
torun a booth at the expo with the option of presenting a couple applications or
concepts that are not already being displayed by the attending vendors.  If your
group is interested please contact me directly.

Attendees: End users, Developers and IT Professionals.

Current Sponsors:
MSC Software
Linux Journal
Sun Microsystems
IBM (tbd)
AWL
Systems Administrator Magazine
O'Reilly (tbd)

Some notable speakers:
Rasmus Lerdorf (creator of PHP)
Marc Hamilton  (Sun Microsystems)
Jay Clark      (MSC Linux)
J. P. Lewis    (USC's IMSC)
Darren Moffat  (Sun's Solaris Security Technologies Group)
Daniel Morales (Vice-President of MandrakeSoft North America)

Date: November 2nd, 2002
Location: Davidson Conference Center on the University of Southern
California campus
Time: All day conference

Please visit our web site for additional conference information
http://www.socallinuxexpo.com/

Best regards,
Gareth J. Greenaway
Southern California Linux Expo


PS. Please pass this along anywhere applicable.  Thanks.

Okay,
We have a meeting scheduled for Saturday, the meeting will consist of a
screening of Revolution OS.  Followed by the usual machine tweaking.


						 Gareth
--
"I'm a 21st century digital boy, I don't know how to live but i've got
a lot of toys."
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Gareth J. Greenaway
gareth@...

Hey folks,
I'm getting more and more interested in government technology
policy.  Ever since Peru came out with their proposed law requiring
that government agencies use Open Source software if it met their
needs, I've wondered how come California sends so much money north
to Redmond (and over to Oracle).

As it turns out, State Senator Debra Bowen, who is influential in
technology policy (see
http://www.google.com/search?q=debra+bowen+technology),
is from a district that overlaps LULA and Lilax's home turf (see
http://democrats.sen.ca.gov/servlet/gov.ca.senate.democrats.pub.members.memDispl\
ayMap?district=sd28
)

If we as Linux advocates want to influence the state to behave
more sensibly with respect to their software dollars, it might
behoove us to get to know Senator Bowen one way or another.

If anyone's interested in talking about this, please email me,
and let's get something going.  (Yes, I have something in mind.)

Thanks,
Dan

This information isn't specific to L.A. LUGS, but since
many LUG members are consultants, I thought this information
might be beneficial to them as a desktop solution for their clients.
I apoligize if it is inappropriate.

I've created a new distro based on Red Hat 7.3.

It is another desktop distro aimed for the typical newbie user.

It is still early in its development, so it is more recommended for
consultants or current Linux users that wish to install a version of
Linux for their customers/spouses/Moms/friends which they can help out
and answer their questions.

Some of its benefits/goals are:

* Based on Red Hat 7.3.  Those using Red Hat on their servers don't
have to learn new commands and file locations unlike other desktop
distros when they want to install a user friendly distribution on a
friend or family members computer.  Again unlike other desktop
distributions, it is almost 100% Red Hat 7.3 compatible so you can
take advantage of the wealth of knowledge and software already available.

* Slimmed down to a single CD.  Almost all software not needed by a
typical desktop user is not included.  This prevents accidental software
installs which can slow down the computer, and provides less possibility
for security vulnerabilities.  It is also easier and less costly to
provide somone a copy of the distribution.

* 4 step install can provide you a fully functional desktop environment
in less than 15 minutes.

* Recompiled for i686 and above processors to get the most from your
hardware purchase.

Anyways, if LUG Leaders know of members that would be interested in
such a project, please point them to
http://www.boycottmicrosoft.net/jamd/ for further information.

Thanks,
-Jim