_The Collected Vinyar Tengwar_ Vol. 4 is now available

Volume 4 of _The Collected Vinyar Tengwar_ collects issue 31–40, and
is available for order on the E.L.F. Storefront at Lulu.com
(<http://www.lulu.com/ELF/>) or from the Vinyar Tengwar Web Shop
(<http://www.elvish.org/VT/shop.html>). Note that each volume is offered
in  two different bindings: Perfect (i.e. as a typical softcover book)
and Coil (which allows the issue to open and lie flat, for ease of
reference).

(Once again, I am exceedingly grateful to E.L.F. member Karyn Traphagen
for her hugely generous assitance in preparing these volumes for
publication. Please send her your good thoughts and warm wishes!)


--
========================================================================
=================Carl F. Hostetter   Aelfwine@...   http://
www.elvish.org

              ho bios brachys, he de techne makre.
                      Ars longa, vita brevis.
               The lyf so short, the craft so long to lerne.
"I wish life was not so short," he thought.  "Languages take such
       a time, and so do all the things one wants to know about."

I have discovered a font-related problem in the first version of the
_CVT_ vol. 4 (_not_ affecting vol. 5a). I have a work-around, and
will release the corrected version later today. However, I notice
that a few people have already ordered copies of the first version.
If you ordered one of these copies, please contact me directly with
your order number and your address, and I will have corrected
replacement copies mailed to you at no charge.

Carl

The corrected version is now available for order.

Those of you who ordered the first version: although the window to do
so seems VERY tight indeed, it might be possible to cancel your order
through your Lulu account. Please try to do so, and if successful
simply place a new order, before you contact me with the replacement
information.


On Oct 28, 2005, at 4:11 PM, Carl F. Hostetter wrote:

> I have discovered a font-related problem in the first version of the
> _CVT_ vol. 4 (_not_ affecting vol. 5a). I have a work-around, and
> will release the corrected version later today. However, I notice
> that a few people have already ordered copies of the first version.
> If you ordered one of these copies, please contact me directly with
> your order number and your address, and I will have corrected
> replacement copies mailed to you at no charge.
>
> Carl
>
>
>
>
>
>
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> conventions.phtml
> Yahoo! Groups Links
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>
>
>
>
>
>

If canceling your order (and then making a new order) is not an
option, then on further reflection I would like to ask those of you
who ordered a copy of the first, flawed version, to please wait and
see what arrives before writing me (directly) for a replacement.
Karyn has pointed out to me, quite correctly, that Lulu usually does
not begin production of an order until a few days have lapsed, due to
their production schedules. Therefore, it is possible that, since I
have now replaced the production files with corrected versions, what
you receive will have been made from the corrected files. (A quick
way to tell will be to look at page 33 of issue 31 in the collection,
under the entry _thorn_ 'eagle'. If in the third line of that entry
you see "Ï€oron" (i.e., with an initial Greek "pi" character) instead
of "þoron" (i.e., with an initial Old English "thorn" character), you
got the uncorrected version, and need to contact me for a replacement.

Sorry for all the bother!

Carl


On Oct 28, 2005, at 5:31 PM, Carl F. Hostetter wrote:

> The corrected version is now available for order.
>
> Those of you who ordered the first version: although the window to do
> so seems VERY tight indeed, it might be possible to cancel your order
> through your Lulu account. Please try to do so, and if successful
> simply place a new order, before you contact me with the replacement
> information.
>
>
> On Oct 28, 2005, at 4:11 PM, Carl F. Hostetter wrote:
>
>
>> I have discovered a font-related problem in the first version of the
>> _CVT_ vol. 4 (_not_ affecting vol. 5a). I have a work-around, and
>> will release the corrected version later today. However, I notice
>> that a few people have already ordered copies of the first version.
>> If you ordered one of these copies, please contact me directly with
>> your order number and your address, and I will have corrected
>> replacement copies mailed to you at no charge.
>>
>> Carl
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------
>> ~-->
>> Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your
>> home page
>> http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/GP4qlB/TM
>> --------------------------------------------------------------------
>> ~->
>>
>> List guidelines: http://www.elvish.org/LambengolmorList/
>> Bibliography and abbreviations: http://www.elvish.org/Tengwestie/
>> conventions.phtml
>> Yahoo! Groups Links
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------
> ~-->
> Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your
> home page
> http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/GP4qlB/TM
> --------------------------------------------------------------------
> ~->
>
> List guidelines: http://www.elvish.org/LambengolmorList/
> Bibliography and abbreviations: http://www.elvish.org/Tengwestie/
> conventions.phtml
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

_The Collected Vinyar Tengwar_ Vol. 3 is now available

Volume 3 of _The Collected Vinyar Tengwar_ collects issue 21–30, and
is available for order on the E.L.F. Storefront at Lulu.com
(<http://www.lulu.com/ELF/>) or from the Vinyar Tengwar Web Shop
(<http://www.elvish.org/VT/shop.html>). Note that each volume is offered
in  two different bindings: Perfect (i.e. as a typical softcover book)
and Coil (which allows the issue to open and lie flat, for ease of
reference).


--
====================================================================
Carl F. Hostetter   Aelfwine@...   http://www.elvish.org

              ho bios brachys, he de techne makre.
                      Ars longa, vita brevis.
               The lyf so short, the craft so long to lerne.
"I wish life was not so short," he thought.  "Languages take such
       a time, and so do all the things one wants to know about."

_The Collected Vinyar Tengwar_ Vol. 2 is now available

Volume 2 of _The Collected Vinyar Tengwar_ collects issue 11–20, and
is available for order on the E.L.F. Storefront at Lulu.com
(<http://www.lulu.com/ELF/>) or from the Vinyar Tengwar Web Shop
(<http://www.elvish.org/VT/shop.html>). Note that each volume is offered
in  two different bindings: Perfect (i.e. as a typical softcover book)
and Coil (which allows the issue to open and lie flat, for ease of
reference).


--
====================================================================
Carl F. Hostetter   Aelfwine@...   http://www.elvish.org

              ho bios brachys, he de techne makre.
                      Ars longa, vita brevis.
               The lyf so short, the craft so long to lerne.
"I wish life was not so short," he thought.  "Languages take such
       a time, and so do all the things one wants to know about."

In their excellent book _The Lord of the Rings: A
Reader's Companion_, Wayne G.Hammond and Christina
Scull write:

"haywards -- The term _hayward_ originally referred to
one who protected the fences around lands enclosed for
growing hay (Old English _hegeweard_), later more
generally applied to one who prevents cattle from
breaking through into enclosed fields with growing
crops." (p. 35)

There are two words _hay_ in English, of distinct
origin:

hay(1). Dried grass. AS. _hieg_ [i with a macron],
cognate with _hew_.

hay(2). Hedge, enclosure. AS. _hege_ ... Survives in
name _Hayward_, official protecting enclosures.

(Weekley, _Concise Etymological Dictionary of Modern
English_. Other etymological dictionaries say
basically the same, e.g. Skeat,
http://www.etymonline.com.)

The dictionaries would seem to agree with the first
part of the definition as given by Hammond & Scull:
"one who protected the fences around lands enclosed".
What I am curious about is the "for growing hay" part.
To me, it sounds suspiciously like folk etymology, as
the OE word _hegeweard_ would have had no particular
connection to ModE _hay_ 'cut grass'.

Isn't the more general application--the "later" one
according to Hammond & Scull--in fact the older one?

Kind regards,
Fredrik Ström

[I can't answer this definitively myself, since Hammond
& Scull may have been citing a reference work to which
I don't have access. I will note that the OED appears to
support Fredrik's interpretation -- it gives the first element
in _hayward_ as hay(2) 'a hedge, a fence', and glosses the
word as 'an officer of a manor, township, or parish, having
charge of the fences and enclosures, esp. to keep cattle
from breaking through from the common into enclosed
fields; sometimes, the herdsman of the cattle feeding on
the common'. This makes no mention of any connection
with hay(1) 'dried grass'.

Wright's _English Dialect Dictionary_ and C.T. Onions'
_Oxford Dictionary of English Etymology_ are both in
accord with the OED on this point. Perhaps Wayne or
Christina might be able to comment? -- PHW]

See Tolkien's _Guide to the Names_, Persons, _Hayward_:
"The word is derived from _hay_ 'fence' (_not_ 'grass') +
_ward_ 'guard'." (TC:168)

- Beregond

Recall also "Haysend" - where too "hay"="hedge".

Lukas

Beregond. Anders Stenström scripsit:

> See Tolkien's _Guide to the Names_, Persons, _Hayward_:
> "The word is derived from _hay_ 'fence' (_not_ 'grass') +
> _ward_ 'guard'." (TC:168)

> - Beregond








> List guidelines: http://www.elvish.org/LambengolmorList/
> Bibliography and abbreviations:
> http://www.elvish.org/Tengwestie/conventions.phtml
> Yahoo! Groups Links

In regard to Fredrik and Pat's comments, our gloss:

> "haywards -- The term _hayward_ originally referred to
> one who protected the fences around lands enclosed for
> growing hay (Old English _hegeweard_), later more
> generally applied to one who prevents cattle from
> breaking through into enclosed fields with growing
> crops." (p. 35)

should have pointed to Tolkien's own gloss in the "Nomenclature", as
indeed we do in our gloss for "Hob Hayward" (LR p. 998, our p. 655).
Our note on p. 35 was written early in the project, and forgotten 620
pages later. Even early on, however, we knew that Hob Hayward would
be coming along, with a name derived from an occupation, and so for
our first note consulted the Oxford _Dictionary of English Surnames_
by Reaney and Wilson, which says: "The original duties of the hayward
seem to have been to protect the fences round the Lammas lands when
enclosed for hay (Coulton), hence his name, OE _hegeweard_ 'guardian
of the fence or hedge'." "Coulton" is nowhere identified by Reaney
and Wilson (probably the writer on medieval history G.G. Coulton),
and it may be that an element of folk etymology is present.

Wayne and Christina

Beregond wrote:

> See Tolkien's _Guide to the Names_, Persons,
> _Hayward_: "The word is derived from _hay_
> 'fence' (_not_ 'grass') + _ward_ 'guard'."
> (TC:168)

The text of the "Guide" is also printed in the
_Reader's Companion_ itself.

[The page reference in Beregond's post was added
by your humble moderator, who decided to cite the
_Tolkien Compass_ edition as currently the most
familiar. The version in _Reader's Companion_ differs
from this in that "it has been newly transcribed from
the professional typescript as corrected by Tolkien, with
reference also to an earlier version in manuscript and
typescript" (RC:751). I have no doubt that in the future
the version in the RC will become the standard text of
reference for Tolkienian linguistics. -- PHW]

I might point out a possible misprint in this context.
On p. 655, entry for Hob Hayward, there is a reference
to a "note for p. 107". However, Hob Hayward is not
mentioned in the notes for page 107 (although the Hay
Gate is, as correctly noted in the next entry on page
655 in the _Reader's Companion_). Possibly the
reference should read "(See also note for p. 10.)",
referring to the note for "haywards"?

Speaking of possible errors in the _Reader's
Companion_, Magnus Åberg, whose "Analysis of Khuzdul"
was read at the Omentielva Minya, made an interesting
observation regarding the following text on page 269:

"_Azan_ [in _Azanulbizar_] was probably a plural of
_uzu_ 'dimness, shadow' (cf. _Khazad_ - _Khuzd_)".

Magnus points out that *_'uzn_ as the singular
of _'azan_ would fit the pattern of _khuzd_ - _khazad_
better than _uzu_ does. Could it be that the word was
misread in the manuscript of the _Nomenclature_?

Kind regards,
/Fredrik Ström

Fredrik wrote:

> I might point out a possible misprint in this context.
> On p. 655, entry for Hob Hayward, there is a reference
> to a "note for p. 107". However, Hob Hayward is not
> mentioned in the notes for page 107 (although the Hay
> Gate is, as correctly noted in the next entry on page
> 655 in the _Reader's Companion_). Possibly the
> reference should read "(See also note for p. 10.)",
> referring to the note for "haywards"?

No, I don't think so. Too many details have passed by now to be sure,
but I think that we meant to point to the mention of the Hay Gate. If
we had meant the note for p. 10 we would have picked up on the
duplication of comments on _hayward_ and dealt with it.

> Magnus points out that *_'uzn_ as the singular
> of _'azan_ would fit the pattern of _khuzd_ - _khazad_
> better than _uzu_ does. Could it be that the word was
> misread in the manuscript of the _Nomenclature_?

Yes, it was. It should be _uzn_.

Wayne

It is universally recognised, by Tolkien himself to begin with (through
Lowdham's pen), that the triconsonantal structure of Adûnaic bases was
inspired by Semitic languages. The vowel system and its use in
morphology is however said to be different: "The vocalic arrangements
within the base, however, do not much resemble Semitic; neither does
Adunaic show anything strictly comparable to the 'gradation' of languages
familiar to us, such as the _e/o_ variation in the Indo-European group.
In an Adunaic Base there is a Characteristic Vowel (CV) which shares with
the consonants in characterizing or identifying the Base. (...) The CV may,
however, be modified in certain recognized ways (described below under
the Vowels) which can produce effects not unlike those of gradation"
(IX:415-6).

Browsing through a book about ancient languages, I recently came
across a brief sketch of Sanskrit structure, and was struck by
similarities with Adûnaic in the matter of vowel gradation (= apophony,
ablaut). I do not remember that Sanskrit had been mentioned yet as
a possible inspiration for Adûnaic in a developed way.

The usual Sanskrit transcription makes use of diacritics not supported
by ASCII, which may be problematic in emails, so I will use instead the
Harvard-Kyoto Convention; a description is available on Wikipedia
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harvard-Kyoto>. I am not a Sanskritist
at all; if there are errors, I will be happy to be corrected.

Adûnaic as described in Lowdham's report makes a threefold vowel
length distinction: short, long and overlong. In the source, macrons
are used for long vowels and circumflexes for overlong ones, while
short vowels are unmarked. Since macrons too may cause problems
in emails, I will simply double the vowel when long and reserve the
circumflex for overlong vowels.
___________________

1) VOWEL GRADATION

The Adûnaic vowel gradations are of two kinds: the CV can be
lengthened, or modified by a-infixion or "fortification". (Nasal
infixion is also possible). The apophonic series are presented so
in XI:425:

Basic A:  a - aa - â
Basic I:  i - ii - î; ee - âi
Basic U:  u - uu - û; oo - âu

Sanskrit morphology makes much use of vowel gradation, which
it inherited and modified from Proto-Indo-European (PIE). Three
grades are recognised; Western terminology calls them reduced,
full and long. Traditional Sanskrit grammar sees the reduced grade
as basic and describes the other grades as successive addition of
_a_: a first addition gives the guNa grade, a second addition gives
the vRddhi grade. This gives the following alternations
(reduced - full - long):

Basic nil:  nil - a - A
Basic i:  i - e - ai (before a consonant); y - ay - Ay (before a vowel)
Basic u:  u - o - au (before a consonant); v - av - Av (before a vowel)
Basic R:  R - ar - Ar (before a consonant); r - ar - Ar (before a vowel)

Here follow a few examples (the root with its apophonic vowel is
surrounded by asterisks):

Reduced grade:
pa*pt*uH "they flew"
*vid*maH "we know"
*rud*ita- "wept" (past participle)
va*vRt*uH "they turned"

Full grade:
*pat*ati "he, she, it flies"
*ved*mi "I know"
*rod*itum "to weep"
*vart*ate "he, she, it turns"

Long grade:
*pAt*a- "flight"
*vaid*ya- "learned"
a*raud*iSIt "he, she, it wept"
*vArt*tA- "profession"

The successive additions of _a_ described by traditional Sanskrit
grammar are very like the fortification of Adûnaic. In both languages,
_e_ and _o_, which exist in long varieties only, pattern as the
diphthongs they earlier were -- this is very apparent in the contrast
between preconsonantal and prevocalic treatment in Sanskrit
(Sanskrit _e, o, ai, au_ < Indo-Iranian _ai, au, âi, âu_).

It can be noted that if the vowel gradations of Adûnaic resemble
Sanskrit (or better, Indo-Iranian), they are quite different to the PIE
patterns, explaining Lowdham's words that "neither does Adunaic
show anything strictly comparable to the 'gradation' of languages
familiar to us, such as the _e/o_ variation in the Indo-European group".
Beside variations in vowel quantity (quantitative ablaut), PIE extensively
used variation between the qualities _e_ and _o_ (qualitative ablaut)
-- the typical alternations were between e - o - nil (_e_ and _o_ being
short). Long grades in _ê_ and _ô_ existed but their use was quite
restricted. In the Indo-Iranian branch branch of Indo-European, this
system was profoundly altered because _e_ and _o_ (short or long)
merged in _a_ (short or long); qualitative ablaut became prominent
and was much expanded (notably by a change of _o_ > _â_ in certain
positions).

It is also interesting that nasal infixion is reconstructed as a
morphological feature of PIE; there is a class of verbs with nasal
infixes / suffixes in Sanskrit.
___________________

2) ELLIPTICAL DUAL

Another similarity between Adûnaic and Sanskrit is the use of the
elliptical dual: in a conventionally paired opposition of terms, one
in the dual can represent both elements. Édouard Kloczko already
pointed out this similarity (pg. 104 of his _Dictionnaire des langues
des hobbits, des nains, des orques_. Argenteuil [France]: Arda, 2002.
179 p. ISBN 2-911979-04-4). Lowdham provides us with the Adûnaic
example _uuriyat_ "the two suns" = Sun and Moon (IX:428). Sanskrit
examples include:

dyAvA "the two heavens" = heaven and earth
mAtarA "the two mothers" = mother and father
varuNA "the two VaruNa's" = Mitra and VaruNa

For such pairs, Vedic Sanskrit also used copulative compounds with
both members in the dual and accented (a kind of compound known
as dual dvandva); beside _varuNA_ it had _MitrA-varuNA_ for "Mitra
and VaruNa". We know that Adûnaic for oppositive pairs used
compounds too as well as elliptical dual (alone or completed with
the second term in the singular): for "sun and moon" it had beside
_uuriyat_ the forms _uuriniil(uw)at_ and _uuriyat niiloo_(IX:428).
However, this is not fully like a dual dvandva, for we would then
expect _*uuriyat-niil(uw)at_ .
___________________

3) TENSES IN THE VERBAL SYSTEM

We do not know much about Adûnaic verbs, but know that it had
four tenses; aorist, continuative present, continuative past, past.
Sanskrit had a very complicated verbal system, with the following
tenses:

present, imperfect (built on a present stem),
aorist (built on an aorist stem; it was past in meaning),
perfect, and in Vedic a residual pluperfect (built on a perfect stem).

The semantic distinctions between imperfect, aorist and perfect
are said to have blurred with time, but this is a tense system is
quite reminiscent of Ancient Greek, and in Neogrammarian times
it was thought to reflect the PIE verbal system (as far as I know this
idea is met with much reservation today).

There is some parallel with Adûnaic:

-- The two Adûnaic continuative tenses would correspond to the
present and imperfect built on a present stem. In Ancient Greek the
present stem had an imperfective meaning (for Sanskrit it is not clear
from my limited reading -- hints?)

-- The Adûnaic past is also used in association with other tenses as
a "relative" tense shifting even further in past than the associated
tense. Could it be considered as a kind of perfect?

-- Finally, the existence of an aorist. An interesting terminology,
even if the values are not quite the same, since the Adûnaic aorist is
said to be present as well as past -- it is somewhat reminiscent of the
rather present-oriented (or timeless) Quenya aorist.
____________________

I do not know if Tolkien really studied Sanskrit at length, but he
cannot have ignored it because of its great importance in the
comparative grammar of Indo-European languages, even more so
in the time of the Neogrammarians than now. Evidently it left some
traces in Adûnaic. For nasal infixion and the tense system I think
it is possible that Tolkien, more generally, was influenced by the
reconstruction of PIE current at his time; but the vowel gradation
patterns and the elliptic dual are likely to be more specifically
Sanskrit inspired.

Bertrand Bellet
____________________

REFERENCES

Haudry, Jean. _L'indo-européen_. 3rd revised ed. Paris: Presses
Universitaires de France, 1994. 127 p. (Que sais-je ?; 1798). ISBN
2-13-038370-X

Varenne, Jean. _Grammaire du sanskrit_. 2nd revised ed. Paris: Presses
Universitaires de France, 1979. 127 p. (Que sais-je ?; 1416). ISBN
2-13-035894-2

Woodard, Roger D. (ed). _The Cambridge Encyclopedia of the World's
Ancient Languages_. Cambridge: Cambridge University Press, 2004.
1162 p. ISBN 0-521-56256-2.

In an early draft of the chapter "Farewell to Lórien" presented
in "The Treason of Isengard", Keleborn -- describing the lands
south of Lórien through which the Company will pass on
its way down the Anduin -- mentions an interesting Noldorin
name: beyond the Wetwang "are the Nomenlands, dreary
Uvanwaith that lies before the passes of Mordor" (VII:281). A
variant draft of Keleborn's account repeats the name and gloss
as "the Nomenlands (of Uvanwaith)" (VII:283). The index to Vol.
VII cites the name as _Úvanwaith_, in which the long _Ú-_ is
apparently an error.

The only analysis of this name that I've found appears in David
Salo's _A Gateway to Sindarin_, in which he glosses _Uvanwaith_
as 'wilderness of monsters', < _úan_ + _gwaith_ (pg. 394). EN _úan_
'monster' appears in the _Etymologies_ s.v. BAN- *'fair, beautiful',
from *_ûbanô_ (with an acute accent over the _û-_), lit. *'not-
beautiful one'. N./S. _gwaith_, in its lenited form _-waith_, is a
common final element in place-names, in which it = '-land', and
Tolkien's First Map for LotR provides several Noldorin examples
contemporary with _Uvanwaith_: _Forodwaith_ 'Northerland',
_Enedwaith_ 'Middlemarch', and _Haradwaith_ 'Sutherland'
(VII:304–06).

Salo's interpretation presents two difficulties: 1) The first element
in _Uvanwaith_ is _uvan-_, not _úan_, and (so far as I can tell)
Salo doesn't account for this phonological difference; 2) In both
occurrences, _Uvanwaith_ is glossed by Tolkien as 'the Nomenlands',
not *'the Monsterlands' or *'Wilderness of Monsters'. This seems all
the more significant given that the Noldorin name was to vanish,
while its English gloss survived into the published text as "the
Noman-lands" (in the chapters "Farewell to Lórien" and "The Passage
of the Marshes").

If Tolkien's gloss of _Uvanwaith_ is literal, then _uvan-_ should
mean 'nomen' or 'noman', in which case the most straightforward
analysis would be negative prefix *_uv-_ 'no' + N. _anw_ 'a male,
man (of Men or Elves), male animal' (V:360, VT45:16) -- *_uvanw_
'noman' + -waith '-land' > _Uvanwaith_ 'Noman-land'. These
elements are examined in more detail below:

*UV- 'no'

QL lists the roots UMU-, UVU as variants of the negative stem Û(2),
with a derivative "_u-_ or _ûv-_ prefix mainly used before vowels,
= un-"; and GL gives _û_, "negative prefix with any part of speech",
which has a "strengthened" variant _um-_ clearly corresponding to
the root UMU in QL. The _Etymologies_ gives the negative stems UGU-
or UMU-, and a rejected base MÛ- (whence N. _mû_ 'no'; VT45:35)
that is obviously a variant of UMU-. N. *_uv-_ 'no' in _Uvanwaith_
would thus evidently derive from UMU- (which had been in existence
since 1915) with the usual Noldorin development of medial M > V;
in other words, N. *_uv-_ is apparently the later conception of Gn.
_um-_ (in Goldogrin, medial M was retained unchanged).

ANW 'a male, man'

According to the entry for *_anu_ (= EN _anw_) in Didier Willis's
Sindarin dictionary (Edition 1.4):

"A literal interpretation of the _Etymologies_ would class this word
as a noun, but David Salo notes that the punctuation in _The
Etymologies_ is not always reliable. Noldorin _anw_ cannot be
cognate to the Quenya noun _hanu_ (*_3anû_) because the final
_-u_ would drop. It must rather be cognate to the Quenya adjective
_hanwa_ (*_3anwâ_) attested under the stem INI, where it is also
stated that _inw_, corresponding to Quenya _inya_ "female", has
been remodelled after _anw_. The combination of these two
entries, along with the phonological evidences, clearly indicates
that _anw_ is actually an adjective".

The entry in the _Etymologies_ reads: "3AN- male. Q _hanu_ a male
(of Men or Elves), male animal; ON _anu_, N _anw_; Dor. _ganu_.
(The feminine is INI.)", and as Didier notes, this seems to clearly
indicate that N. _anw_, like Q. _hanu_, was used as a noun meaning
'a male' -- entries with the identical format are common in the
_Etymologies_, e.g., "PÁRAK- Q _parka_ dry; ON _parkha_, N _parch_."
The appeal to "unreliable" punctuation to explain away the entry's
obvious meaning is unconvincing, since no change in punctuation,
short of replacing the semicolon after the entry for Q. _hanu_ with a
"not equal to" symbol, would yield a plausible alternative
interpretation.

On the other hand, the phonological objection raised -- that N.
_anw_ must be cognate with Q. adj. _hanwa_ rather than Q. noun
_hanu_ -- appears valid. The Noldorin cognate of Q. _hanu_ ought
to be *_an_ -- and interestingly enough, GL does in fact list Gn.
_an_ 'person, "-body", "one", anyone, someone, "they"' (the Qenya
cognate appears in QL as noun _anu_ 'a male'), which originally had
the negative forms _umon_ or _unweg_ (the latter is glossed in a
separate entry in the U-section as 'nobody, no one'). The first form,
_umon_ (later struck out), might end in Gn. _on_ 'he', but it could
also end in _an_ 'person', since unaccented _-an_ > _-on_ in
Goldogrin (PE11:13). If so, then Gn. _umon_ (< earlier *_uman_)
looks very much like the conceptual predecessor of N. _uvan-_
in _Uvanwaith_.

Where Didier's dictionary entry errs, however, is in its flat
assertion that _anw_ "is actually an adjective", without considering
the possibility that _anw_ might be both an adjective _and_ a
noun. Certainly there are many such Noldorin noun/adjectives
found in the _Etymologies_, e.g., "N _gloss_ snow ... N _gloss_
also adj. snow-white"; "N _sarn_ stone as a material, or as adj.";
"[N] _mael_ (*_magla_) stain and adj. stained"; etc. (V:359, 385,
386). It seems possible that the noun *_an_ 'a male' was not used
because this syllable was already overworked in Noldorin -- cf. _an-_
'with, by' (V:374), _an-_ 'long' in _Anfang_ 'Longbeard' (V:348),
_-an_ '-land' in _Rohan_ 'Horseland' (VI:434, n. 22), _-an_ 'gift' in
_Rhian_ 'crown-gift' (V:383), etc. -- and this may have resulted in
the more distinctive adjectival form _anw_ being used substantively
as well, a process probably aided by analogy with the large class of
Noldorin nouns ending in _-w_, including _tinw_ 'spark, small star',
_gwanw_ 'death', _ianw_ 'bridge' (V:393, 397, 400); _curw_ 'craft',
_harw_ 'wound' (V:366, 386); _celw_ 'spring, source', †_golw_ 'lore'
(V:363, 377); and _hithw_ 'fog', _pathw_ 'level space, sward',
_gwelw_ 'air (as substance)' (V:364, 380, 398).

-- Patrick H. Wynne

I wonder whether the element _úvan-_ 'noman' or 'nomen' could be
formed of the negative prefix _ú-_ plus a lenited form of the personal
pronoun _man_ 'who'. Such a pronoun is only found, to my knowledge,
in Quenya interrogative phrases, which counts against this interpretation
for a Noldorin noun, but it's perhaps another possible explanation.

Helios

[Given that Quenya _man_ 'who?' is interrogative -- cf. "the Eldarin
interrogative element _ma, man_" (XII:357, n. 18) -- it seems an
unlikely candidate for the second element in N. _uvan-_ 'noman',
the literal sense of which would then be 'not-who?'. Attested Elvish
words meaning 'no one, nobody, no man' are formed from non-
interrogative elements. I mentioned Gn. _umon_ (< either _an_
'person' or _on_ 'he') and _unweg_ 'nobody, no one' (< _gweg_ 'man,
male of Elda or Indi (Saska)', PE11:44) in my post. The entry for
_unweg_ in GL also gives a feminine form _umir_ (< *_ir_ 'she'; cp.
the attested possessive _irtha_ 'her', PE11:11). In the later material
we find Q. _Úner_ 'Noman' (UT:211), Ancalimë's name for her ideal
mate, in which the second element is Q. _ner_ 'man', as in _Nerwen_
'man-maiden' (UT:229). -- PHW]

Patrick Wynne, on the name _Uvanwaith_:

> The only analysis of this name that I've found appears
> in David Salo's _A Gateway to Sindarin_, in which he
> glosses _Uvanwaith_ as 'wilderness of monsters', < _úan_
> + _gwaith_ (pg. 394). [...] N./S. _gwaith_, in its lenited
> form _-waith_, is a common final element in place-names,
> in which it = '-land', and Tolkien's First Map for LotR
> provides several Noldorin examples contemporary with
> _Uvanwaith_: _Forodwaith_ 'Northerland', _Enedwaith_
> 'Middlemarch', and _Haradwaith_ 'Sutherland' (VII:304–06).

Further to the difficulties mentioned by Patrick, I
would add that a name meaning literally *'monsterfolk'
seems a bit strange. As far as I know the region was
not inhabited by a people considered monstrous. It is
clear that _gwaith_ refers primarily to a host, or
people, and only by extension to the land inhabited by
that people: cf. V:398 s.v. WEG-, V:382 s.v. PHOR-,
and the description of the Lossoth as being 'a
strange, unfriendly people, remnant of the Forodwaith'
(LR:1041). The name _Forodwaith_ is an exact parallel
to _Norfolk_ in referring to both people and land. (This
development is quite normal; cf. _Éotheod_ [first
appearing on Pauline Baynes' map of Middle-earth],
meaning both 'horse-people' and 'the land of the
horse-people', and [for a real-world example]
_Svethiudh_, 'Sweden' on rune-stones.) _Enedwaith_ is
glossed 'Middle-folk' (VT42:6). So, _-waith_ in a
place-name would seem to indicate that the land was
inhabited by somebody, or, in this case, by nobody:
*'Nofolk'. But a no man's land is not necessarily a
wilderness inhabited by monstrous people.

/Fredrik

On p. 580 in _The Lord of the Rings: A Reader's
Companion_, Wayne Hammond and Christina Scull writes:
"_athelas_ in the noble tongue [...] In the following
paragraph Aragorn gives the corresponding name of the
plant in Quenya, _asea aranion_ 'leaf of kings'."

The Sindarin name is discussed on p. 183:
"Athelas [...] The first element is problematic;
according to Arden R. Smith, an unpublished etymology
connects it with Quenya _asea_, as in _asea aranion_
'kingsfoil' (but if so, _athelas_ = 'leaf-leaf')."

The translation 'leaf of kings' does not seem to be
attested. The only translation of _asea_ that I know
of is the one quoted by William C. Hicklin on the
art.fan.tolkien newsgroup:
<http://groups.google.com/group/rec.arts.books.tolkien/browse_thread/thread/34fc\
7f494c7ff868/3fad9c3c879f5a2c?lnk=st&q=athelas+hicklin&rnum=1&hl=en#3fad9c3c879f\
5a2c>

"Christopher Tolkien and I have had an ongoing discussion about the origins of
this word.   It plainly contains -las 'leaf'.  It is possible (but entirely
speculative) that what Tolkien had in mind at that time (1938-39) was the Old
English word aethele 'noble, royal.' This would translate 'kingsfoil,' near
enough.  At any rate, a very late note (1970 or later) says that Asea (cf.
Aragorn, 'asea aranion') was the name in Quenya, regularly adapted and
compounded with -las in Sindarin.  The plant was known to the medical
loremasters of the Noldor.  The root is *ATHAYA, 'helpful, kindly,
beneficial.' "

From this it would seem that _asea_ is in fact an
adjective (perhaps substantivized) meaning *'beneficial'
and that the 'leaf'(or 'foil') part is understood in the
Quenya name:_asea [?lasse] aranion_, 'the beneficial
(leaf) of kings'. But perhaps there are other explanations
as well.

/Fredrik

On Nov 13, 2005, at 3:20 PM, F. Ström wrote:

> The translation 'leaf of kings' does not seem to be
> attested.

Strictly speaking, that's true.  It's really just an extrapolation,
based on the gloss of _athelas_ as 'kingsfoil' and the transparent
meaning of _aranion_ 'of kings'.

> "Christopher Tolkien and I have had an ongoing discussion about the
> origins of this word.   It plainly contains -las 'leaf'.  It is possible
> (but entirely speculative) that what Tolkien had in mind at that time
> (1938-39) was the Old English word aethele 'noble, royal.' This
> would translate 'kingsfoil,' near enough.  At any rate, a very late
> note (1970 or later) says that Asea (cf. Aragorn, 'asea aranion') was
> the name in Quenya, regularly adapted and compounded with -las
> in Sindarin.  The plant was known to the medical loremasters of the
> Noldor.  The root is *ATHAYA, 'helpful, kindly, beneficial.' "

Interesting.  I was unaware of this.  The unpublished etymology that I
cited derives _athelas_ and _asea_ from a similar form (though spelling
TH with thorn), but unfortunately leaves it unglossed.  This etymology,
incidentally, is considerably earlier than that mentioned by Bill
Hicklin, dating from sometime between the publication of the first
edition (1954-55) and the publication of the second edition (1965).

***************************************************
Arden R. Smith 		  erilaz@...

Perilme metto aimaktur perperienta.
						 --Elvish proverb

***************************************************

--- "F. Ström" <frestro@...> skrev:
> The translation 'leaf of kings' does not seem to be
> attested. The only translation of _asea_ that I know
> of is the one quoted by William C. Hicklin on the
> art.fan.tolkien newsgroup:
>
<http://groups.google.com/group/rec.arts.books.tolkien/browse_thread/thread/34fc\
7f494c7ff868/3fad9c3c879f5a2c?lnk=st&q=athelas+hicklin&rnum=1&hl=en#3fad9c3c879f\
5a2c>

The URL in my post was editorially changed, but the
reference to the "art.fan.tolkien" newsgroup was not
updated to "rec.arts.books.tolkien" along with it.

[Quite right; sorry! The link you sent originally didn't work for me, so I
googled it myself, and didn't notice the discrepancy. CFH]

Forconvenience I quote the first post by William C.
Hicklin as well:

<http://groups.google.se/group/alt.fan.tolkien/browse_thread/thread/7b7287d31cfa\
1e77/bdb4b12467dc0ad1?lnk=st>

"The herb was known to the Noldor, who termed it
"athea" from *ATHAYA 'helpful, kindly, beneficial.'  A
later sound shift rendered it "asea" (cf. Aragorn's
"asea aranion" in "The Houses of Healing.")  In
Middle-earth the word was converted into regularized
Sindarin form as athe- plus -las 'leaf.'"

/Fredrik

Well folks, here we go again. I have discovered a printing problem in
the first version of the _CVT_ vol. 2 (obvious if you look at the top
of p. 5 of issue 17). I have already updated the edition to fix the
error, so orders placed today or later are unaffected. However, I
notice that a few people have already ordered copies of the first
version. If you ordered one of these copies, please contact me
directly with your order number and your address, and I will have
corrected replacement copies mailed to you at no charge.

All I ask is that you pass along the initial, slightly defective
version you received to someone who would like to have it despite the
error.

Carl

At 05:19 AM 11/13/05, Patrick Wynne annotated Helios De Rosario
Martinez's post:

>[Given that Quenya _man_ 'who?' is interrogative -- cf. "the Eldarin
>interrogative element _ma, man_" (XII:357, n. 18) -- it seems an
>unlikely candidate for the second element in N. _uvan-_ 'noman',
>the literal sense of which would then be 'not-who?'. Attested Elvish
>words meaning 'no one, nobody, no man' are formed from non-
>interrogative elements.

A word for "no one" formed with the elements for "not" and "who?" is found
in Greek and would have been familiar to Tolkien: _outis_, which is what
Odysseus named himself to Polyphemus (Odyssey ix. 366), rendered into
English as "Noman".

[Greek _tis_, according to Liddell and Scott, is _an indefinite pronoun
'any one, any thing'_ as well as an interrogative 'who? what?' To say
that Gk. _outis_ 'no one, nobody' is formed from an interrogative
is thus misleading -- it is more likely formed from _tis_ in its
function as an indefinite pronoun. And there is no evidence that I
know of that Eldarin _ma, man_ and derivatives were ever used as
anything other than pure interrogatives. -- PHW]

Analogous negatives not formed with interrogatives don't prevent the
occurrence of the negative + interrogative construction; e.g., we say
"nowhere" in English even though we do not say *"nowhen".

[Again, English _where_ and _when_ are not exclusively interrogatives;
they are also used as straightforward pronouns -- _unlike_ Eldarin
_ma, man_, which are only attested as interrogative. -- PHW]

>  I mentioned Gn. _umon_ (< either _an_
>'person' or _on_ 'he') and _unweg_ 'nobody, no one' (< _gweg_ 'man,
>male of Elda or Indi (Saska)', PE11:44) in my post. The entry for
>_unweg_ in GL also gives a feminine form _umir_ (< *_ir_ 'she'; cp.
>the attested possessive _irtha_ 'her', PE11:11). In the later material
>we find Q. _Úner_ 'Noman' (UT:211), Ancalimë's name for her ideal
>mate, in which the second element is Q. _ner_ 'man', as in _Nerwen_
>'man-maiden' (UT:229). -- PHW]

Gn. _umon_ can work because _an_ already meant "person" generally,
but the gender-specificity of the other terms (and which is the entire
point of Ancalime's quip) and of N. _anw_ seems to me to be an
obstacle. _uv_ + _anw_ + _gwaith_ would form a term for a commune
of separatist feminists, which does not seem to be what Tolkien had
in mind.

[First: words meaning 'a male, a man' have a tendency in Elvish
(as in primary-world languages) to extend their sense to mean
'people in general' -- look no further than N. _gwaith_, the final
element in _Uvanwaith_ itself, which according to the _Etymologies_
is lit. 'manhood, also used = man-power, troop of able-bodied
men, host, regiment' (V:398, VT46:21), said to occur in _Forodweith_
'Northmen', a race which presumably also included women among
their number. (The form _Forodwaith_ also occurs in the _Etym._
s.v. PHOR-.) The base is WEG- '(manly) vigour', with a variety of
other macho derivatives, e.g. Q. _veo_ 'man'.

Second: Gn. _an_ 'person' was in etymological origin = 'male', a
sense still evident in the cognate forms listed with it in GL: _anos,
anoth_ '†manhood; man (fullgrown), warrior' and _anothrin_
'adult (of men), fullgrown; manly'. This is certainly _suggestive_
than later N. _anw_ 'a male' might also have been used in this
extended sense.

Third: Even if we are to insist than N. _anw_ only referred to
males, the term still seems applicable to 'the Nomenlands'. As
Hammond and Scull note of the later gloss 'Noman-lands', "The
name undoubtedly derives from _no man's-land_ 'disputed ground
between two armies', which Tolkien would have known especially
as applied to the area between the friendly and enemy trenches
in the First World War" (RC:334). The Nomenlands before the
gates of Mordor were the blasted remnants of the battle between
the armies of the Last Alliance and those of Sauron at the end of
the Second Age; and warfare in Middle-earth (as generally in our
own world) was primarily conducted by males. -- PHW]

+-------------------------+
+ Airesseo Kolvorno       +
+ Jerome Colburn          +
+ jcolburn@...     +
+-------------------------+
"Do you not be happy with me as the translator of the books of you?" -- New
Yorker cartoon

--- In lambengolmor@yahoogroups.com, Jerome Colburn
<jcolburn@s...> wrote:

> At 05:19 AM 11/13/05, Patrick Wynne annotated Helios
> De Rosario Martinez's post:
>
> >[Given that Quenya _man_ 'who?' is interrogative -- cf.
> >"the Eldarin interrogative element _ma, man_" (XII:357,
> >n. 18) -- it seems an unlikely candidate for the second
> >element in N. _uvan-_ 'noman', the literal sense of which
> >would then be 'not-who?'. ... -- PHW ]
>
> A word for "no one" formed with the elements for "not" and
> "who?" is found in Greek and would have been familiar to
> Tolkien: _outis_, which is what Odysseus named himself to
> Polyphemus (Odyssey ix. 366), rendered into English as
> "Noman".
>
> [Greek _tis_, according to Liddell and Scott, is _an indefinite
> pronoun 'any one, any thing'_ as well as an interrogative
> 'who? what?'
...
> And there is no evidence that I know of that Eldarin _ma,
> man_ and derivatives were ever used as anything other than
> pure interrogatives. -- PHW]

What about the "Early Qenya Grammar" indefinite article suffix
_-ma_ 'a, some, certain' ? This is also possibly etymologically
connected with the particle _mai_ 'if, whenever'.  (See PE14:42,
59, 71.)

Given the overlap between indefinites and interrogatives in
"real" languages it is hard to believe that Tolkien did not have
at least an historical connection in mind between these
forms _-ma_, _mai_ and the interrogative _man_ 'who' which
appears around this time in the poem "Oilima Markirya".  And
by the same token, even if we suppose that these indefinites
had been rejected by the time of "Etymologies", the plausibility
of an Eldarin interrogative becoming an indefinite (or vice versa)
in Q. and N. through the normal processes of semantic and
syntactic change would still seem to hold.

Interestingly enough, in Galadriel's Lament when she uses the
pronoun _man_ her question is rhetorical.  Which is to say that
what she is actually implying is: "no one will refill the cup for me
now."  This is not to suggest that the pronoun was actually used
this way literally in Quenya.  But it does suggest that the element
did not have far to drift in meaning to make sense in the proposed
etymology -- for what that is worth :-)

-- Christopher Gilson

[In a word, OOPS. Chris's point about the early Qenya suffixed
indefinite article _-ma_ 'a, some, certain' certainly suggests
that I was probably being overly hasty (hom-hoom!) in dismissing
Helios's and Jerome's theories.

Moreover, in addition to the Qenya forms cited by Chris, GL
gives "_ma-_ ? root of indef[inite]. cp. _-(u)m_, suffix" (PE11:55),
with derivatives _madhon, [madh]ir_ 'someone' (m. & f.) and
_ [madh]eg_ 'something', in which the endings _-dhon, _-dhir,
-dheg_ are probably mutated forms of _don, dir_ 'who' (m. & f.)
and _deg_ 'what' (PE11:30).

So perhaps Helios is right in proposing that _uvan-_ is from
_ú-_ 'no, not' and _man_ -- save that the latter element is not
interrogative 'who?' but rather indefinite 'someone', a later
recurrence of the earlier indefinite sense of the stem _ma-_
seen in GL and the EQG. If so, then _uvan-_ would in fact be
quite similar etymologically to Greek _outis_, as Jerome
suggested. -- PHW]

Slaves lived in the South of Mordor, the Nurn. Elessar Telcontar freed
them and gave them land around Lake Núrnen (LOTR Book 6, Ch. V
"The Steward and the King" -- LR:968).

In the first manuscript of LOTR (according to VIII:127) J.R.R. Tolkien
wrote _Nûrnen_. On his first map, in spite of what we see on the map
made by C. Tolkien, "Sea of Nurnen" (VII:309), J.R.R. Tolkien wrote
"Sea of Nûrnen" (see _J.R.R. Tolkien: Life and Legend_, pg. 63 --
I examined the original map).

In the first edition of LOTR, the name is spelt _Nûrnen_ in Book 6,
Ch. V. However, on the general map it is "Sea of Nurnen". "Sea of
Núrnen" appears on the general map in the second edition. Who put
in the accent? J.R.R. Tolkien? C. Tolkien?

In 1982 in the index to UT:458, C. Tolkien translated _Núrnen_ as
'Sad Water'. Now in 2005 we know that it was according to the
unfinished index of names; see _Reader's Companion_, pg. 457.
Nevertheless, that etymology of _núr/nûr-_ is tricky. In V:378 the
Noldorin adjective _nûr_ is translated 'deep' not 'sad'. And finally,
there should be a link between the name of the lake/sea and the
region. But the place-name is _Nurn_, never _Nûrn_ or _Núrn_.

Could it be that _Nurn_ is a name with "Mordorian" roots, not Elvish?
The Elves never lived in the land, it was the Dúnedain who gave all
the Elvish (Sindarin) names, except for _Mordor_, which is a very
ancient name given far back in the Second Age.

(A question to W. Hammond): Did Tolkien state in his index that
_Nurn_ and _Nûrnen/Núrnen_ are Elvish place-names?

Do we have in some unpublished mss. an Elvish root for 'sad' with
a Sindarin/Noldorin word _nûr_?

elfiquement vôtre,

Edouard Kloczko

[Fortunately, we don't need to resort to the unpublished mss. --
which in any event could not be cited here -- to find a probable
etymological source for _Núrnen_ 'Sad Water'. GL gives _nur-_
(_nauri_) 'growl, grumble', _nurn_ 'plaint, lament, a complaint',
and _nurna-_ 'bewail, lament, complain of' (PE11:61). QL gives
the root as NURU-, whence _nuru-_ 'growl (of dogs), grumble,
carp, etc.' and _nur_ 'a growl, a complaint' (PE12:68). Compare
Q. _nurrula_ 'mumbling' < _nurru-_ 'murmur, grumble' in the
final version of "The Last Ark" (MC:222-23).

So S./N. *_nûr_ (or perhaps *_nûrn_) in _Núrnen_ 'Sad Water' is
apparently 'sad' in the sense 'bewailing, lamenting, complaining,
grumbling', no doubt a reference to the general mood of the
hapless laborers in "the great slave-worked fields" beside the
lake. -- PHW]

Edward Kloczko wrote :

> Do we have in some unpublished mss. an Elvish root for 'sad' with
> a Sindarin/Noldorin word _nûr_?

PHW wrote :

> [Fortunately, we don't need to resort to the unpublished mss. --
> which in any event could not be cited here -- to find a probable
> etymological source for _Núrnen_ 'Sad Water'. GL gives _nur-_
> (_nauri_) 'growl, grumble', _nurn_ 'plaint, lament, a complaint',
> and _nurna-_ 'bewail, lament, complain of' (PE11:61). QL gives
> the root as NURU-, whence _nuru-_ 'growl (of dogs), grumble,
> carp, etc.' and _nur_ 'a growl, a complaint' (PE12:68). Compare
> Q. _nurrula_ 'mumbling' < _nurru-_ 'murmur, grumble' in the
> final version of "The Last Ark" (MC:222-23).
>
> So S./N. *_nûr_ (or perhaps *_nûrn_) in _Núrnen_ 'Sad Water' is
> apparently 'sad' in the sense 'bewailing, lamenting, complaining,
> grumbling', no doubt a reference to the general mood of the
> hapless laborers in "the great slave-worked fields" beside the
> lake.]

All of these Elvish words, including the late Quenya verb _nurru-_,
have a short _u_; the discrepancy between the name of the sea
_Nûrnen/Núrnen_ and the region _Nurn_ still remains.

I am not a native speaker of English, but I see not much semantic
relation between N./S. _*nûrn_ adj. 'sad' and Gnomish _nurn_ noun
'plaint, lament, a complaint'.

If we had a Noldorin/Sindarin compound *_nûrn_ + _nen_ it would
be *_Núrnnen_. _Pelennor_ < *_pelen_ adj. 'fenced, encircled' +
_nor_ 'land' (see LOTR-Readers Companion:512).

elfiquement vôtre,

Edouard Kloczko

[I'll take Edouard's three points in order:

1) -- My citation of forms in _nur-_ from GL, QL, and MC was
not intended to account for the discrepancy in vowel length
between _Nurn_ and _Núrnen/Nûrnen_. It is possible that the
varying vowel length is due to differing parts of speech, e.g.,
adj. *_nûr_ 'sad' vs. noun *_nurn_ 'sadness'.

Also, please note that I did not cite _all_ derivatives of NURU-
given in QL, since I was more concerned with the _meaning_
of the derivatives rather than the vowel length -- QL also gives
forms with long vowels: _nûru- (pret. _nurûne_) 'growl (of dogs),
grumble, carp, etc.' and _Núri_ (a name of the death-goddess
Fui), and the full entry for _nur_ 'a growl, a complaint' includes
the stem-forms _nûr-, nurr-_ (PE12:68).

2) -- You cannot see a connection between the senses 'sad'
and 'plaint, lament'? Eng. _plaint_ means 'a complaint or
lamentation', while a _lament_ or _lamentation_ is 'a passionate
expression of grief or sorrow'. According to Buck's _Dictionary
of Selected Synonyms in the Principal Indo-European Languages_,
entry for "sad" (16.36) -- "In many languages the words for 'sad'
are simply derivs. of those for 'grief, sorrow' ... and so mean lit.
'grieving' or 'sorrowful'. Since Elvish NURU- has connotations
of 'lamenting, bewailing' (i.e., expressions of grief or sorrow),
it seems quite plausible to associate this root with 'sad(ness)'.

3) -- It seems to me unlikely that *_nûrn_ + _nen_ would yield
*_Núrnnen_ with _rnn_; simplification of _rnn_ >_rn_ in such
an instance seems probable. Can you cite an example of _rnn_
as a consonant cluster in Nold./Sindarin? In any event, _Núrnen_
is just as likely to consist of _nûr_ + _nen_. -- PHW]

Edouard wrote:

> In the first edition of LOTR, the name is spelt _Nûrnen_ in Book 6,
> Ch. V. However, on the general map it is "Sea of Nurnen". "Sea of
> Núrnen" appears on the general map in the second edition. Who put
> in the accent? J.R.R. Tolkien? C. Tolkien?

In the copies of the first edition on our shelves, the name is
printed in the text _Núrnen_, with an acute accent, not with a
circumflex. It has no accent on the map, but Christopher followed the
usage on his father's working maps, which (according to Christopher's
redrawings and comments in _The History of Middle-earth_) themselves
had _Nurnen_, without accent. _Nurnen_ is still without an accent on
the second edition map; I haven't followed this through every Allen &
Unwin printing in our collection, but a quick look suggests that the
accent wasn't added until Christopher redrew the general map for
_Unfinished Tales_ and took the opportunity to correct some errors
and omissions. (On maps, see RC:lv-lxvii.)

> (A question to W. Hammond): Did Tolkien state in his index that
> _Nurn_ and _Nûrnen/Núrnen_ are Elvish place-names?

_Nurn_ is not in the unfinished index; it appears only on the general
map. _Núrnen_ in the index (so spelt) is not said to be in any
particular language.

Pat wrote:

> So S./N. *_nûr_ (or perhaps *_nûrn_) in _Núrnen_ 'Sad Water' is
> apparently 'sad' in the sense 'bewailing, lamenting, complaining,
> grumbling', no doubt a reference to the general mood of the
> hapless laborers in "the great slave-worked fields" beside the
> lake. -- PHW]

Our own note on this (RC:457) reads: "An old definition of _sad_
is 'dark-coloured', in particular referring to an unpleasant colour;
but by the waters of Núrnen were the great fields of Mordor worked by
slaves, and in that context may be recalled the plight of the Hebrew
slaves expressed in Psalm 137: 'By the rivers of Babylon, there we
sat down, yea, we wept, when we remembered Zion.'"

Wayne

"Wayne G. Hammond" wrote :

> Edouard wrote:
>
> > In the first edition of LOTR, the name is spelt _Nûrnen_ in Book 6,
> > Ch. V. However, on the general map it is "Sea of Nurnen". "Sea of
> > Núrnen" appears on the general map in the second edition. Who put
> > in the accent? J.R.R. Tolkien? C. Tolkien?
>
> In the copies of the first edition on our shelves, the name is
> printed in the text _Núrnen_, with an acute accent, not with a
> circumflex.

Sorry about the ref. but I was referring to _Nûrnen_ as printed in the
chapter "The Black Gate is Closed", first edition, p. 244 (my copy 11th
printing).

> It has no accent on the map, but Christopher followed the
> usage on his father's working maps, which (according to Christopher's
> redrawings and comments in _The History of Middle-earth_) themselves
> had _Nurnen_, without accent.

The original map by J.R.R. Tolkien has _Nûrnen_ (either with a circumflex
or a macron, it is not clear). And in VIII:127, n. 5 there is _Nûrnen_.

Thanks for your answer.

So the mystery still remains... :-)

elfiquement vôtre,

Edouard Kloczko

Edouard wrote:

> Sorry about the ref. but I was referring to _Nûrnen_ as printed in
> the chapter "The Black Gate is Closed", first edition, p. 244 (my
> copy 11th printing).

Ah, yes, there it had a circumflex. This carried over from the first
edition into the first printing of the second edition (1966), but was
changed to an acute accent in the second edition, second printing
(1967). This was one of many changes made at Tolkien's direction in
the 1967 printing: see notes to _J.R.R. Tolkien: A Descriptive
Bibliography_ A5e.

Wayne

I am very pleased to announce the publication of a new article in
_Tengwestië_, the online journal of the Elvish Linguistic Fellowship:

"Light and Tree: A Survey Through the External History of Sindarin"

by Helios De Rosario Martinez

Abstract:

"This article is a descriptive study of two etymological families of
words, related to either light and/or trees, and of their changes
through the external history of the Welsh-inspired Elvish language,
from early Gnomish to late Sindarin. Some of the studied words
meaning or related to 'light' came from the root _gal-_, variant of
_kal-_, in the first stages; from both _kal-_ and _gal-_ in medial
stages; and from _kal-_ and _ñal-_  (this probably in substitution
of _gal-_) in the latest stages. The phonological development of the
studied language caused words derived from these distinct roots to
become very similar or identical in some circumstances, as
happens in the form _galad_, which could come from either Eldarin
*_kalata_, *_galata_ or _ñalata_. On the other hand, some of the
studied words meaning or related to 'tree' are cognates of Q(u)enya
_alda_, and at least in the earliest stages of Gnomish and in the years
following the writing of _The Etymologies_ had an initial _g-_, thus
being the source of further confusion, especially in the case of the
term _galadh_, in some texts spelt likewise _galad_. The doubtful
cases and the conceptual changes affecting them are examined,
especially for the names _Galadriel_ and _Gil-galad_, whose
etymology and meaning was changed though retaining their form.
Some editorial decisions of Christopher Tolkien related to this matter
when compiling the Appendix to _The Silmarillion_ are also considered."

The article can be reached from the _Tengwestië_ homepage at:

<http://www.elvish.org/Tengwestie/>

or directly at:

<http://www.elvish.org/Tengwestie/articles/DeRosarioMartinez/lightandtree.phtml>

A PDF version of the article is available at:

<http://www.elvish.org/Tengwestie/articles/DeRosarioMartinez/lightandtree.pdf>

The _Etymologies_ feature several sets of Noldorin words for the points of the
compass, based on the roots PHOR - KHYAR - RÔ- NDÛ. We already find the
later Sindarin words: _forod_ "north" (V:382),  _harad_ "south" (V:365), _rhûn /
amrûn_ "east" (V:384), _dûn / annûn_ "west" (V:376). But there is another set
of forms more closely related to the Q terms formed by association with the
root MEN (V:372) : _formen_, _hyarmen_, _rómen_  and _nûmen_, sc. N _forven_
(V:382), _harfen / _harven_ (VT45:23), _†rhufen_ (V:384) and _dúven_ (V:376,
VT45:38).

There would be no problem in all this if the  word _dúven_ were not glossed,
most curiously... "southern"! It is important to  note that the reading is
tentative: Christopher Tolkien used brackets and a question mark; but since I
found no correction of it in the A&C, I suppose nothing better can be made (the
entry NDÛ is commented in VT45:38). Neither is  there anything about this in
the VT Errata.

Shifts in the compass are not impossible. We have a good Primary-world
example of the very change east > south in Latin  with _auster_ "south wind",
_austrâlis_ "southern", related to "East" (and its  Germanic cognates). The
meaning
"east" is certainly the primitive one since from the same family comes
_aurôra_ "dawn" with good Indo-European cognates (Ancient Greek _êôs_, Sanskrit
_uSâs_ [retroflex S] etc.). But I do not think such a change is likely for
_dúven_: _harven, harfen_ seems to stand at the (expected) place for "south"
already; also, internally, this semantic shift would be hindered by the
association with the closely and very recognisably related _dûn_, which keeps
the
expected meaning. (By contrast, it is interesting to  observe that the Latin
rhotacism somewhat obscured the etymological connection  between _auster_ and
_aurôra_.)

It is methodologically better to avoid assuming errors by JRRT, and to
attempt it only when alternative explanations have failed; but here to the least
we have an oddity. Is there any possibility that  the reading is actually
"western"?

Bertrand Bellet

[The gloss is certainly not "western" -- nor is it "west", as David Salo
flatly asserts in _A Gateway to Sindarin_, pg. 250 (as usual, without
noting the existence of the inconvenient and problematic _published_
gloss). Both Carl and I have spent some time looking again at our
photocopies of the MS, and can provide the following further details
about this entry: What Tolkien actually wrote here was _Dúven_ (with
a capital D), after which he wrote and then struck through another
capital D, immediately followed by the gloss, which does look very
much like "Southern" (with a capital S) -- however, we now think that
the gloss probably in fact reads "Sunken", so that this entry in full is

"also _Dúven_ Sunken (pl. _dúvin_)"

The deleted capital D following _Dúven_ was perhaps the start of an
abandoned gloss beginning with "Down-"; the base NDÛ- is glossed
as 'go DOWN, SINK, set (of Sun, etc.)'. The gloss 'Sunken' is participial,
in which case the ending in _Dúven_ would seem to be the participial
ending _-en_ (e.g., as in N. _dangen_ 'slain' < _degi_ 'to slay', V:375)
rather than a lenited form of MEN -- in this regard, note that Tolkien
emended the entry for Q. _nû-men_ 'west' to read "Q _nûme-_ and
_nû-men_ west" (VT45:38); it is perhaps this _nûme-_ that corresponds
to the _Dúv-_ in _Dúven_. It is also highly instructive to compare the
corresponding Gnomish forms in GL, which are _num-_ 'sink, decline,
slope down; descend', and _nûmin_ 'the west; sinking' (PE11:61). The
latter appears to be the conceptual antecedent of N. _Dúven_ 'Sunken';
in Goldogrin, _-in_ was a participial/adjectival ending (e.g., _sam-_
'arrange, settle' > _samin_ 'arranged, settled, done'; PE11:67).

Finally, we are left to wonder what _Dúven_ 'Sunken' as a proper name
refers to. Although the context suggests that it could simply be another
term for for 'the West' (i.e. *'the Sunken (Sun)'), Carl has noted that it
might also have been intended as a name for Númenor after its fall,
and that the abandoned gloss beginning with "D-" was perhaps the
beginning of "Downfallen". In any event, the word was also clearly used
simply as a participle or adjective, as shown by the uncapitalized plural
_dúvin_. -- PHW]

-----------------------------------------------------------
Language  has both strengthened imagination and been freed by it. Who shall
say whether  the free adjective has created images bizarre and beautiful, or
the adjective  been freed by strange and beautiful pictures in the mind ? -
J.R.R. Tolkien,  A Secret Vice

Reading through Wayne Hammond and Christina Scull's fabulous new
book _The Lord of the Rings: A Reader's Companion_ I came across the
translation of _Undómiel_ "evening star" (p. 205). I always assumed
that the name meant "daughter of twilight" from _undóme_ "(evening)
twilight" (LR:1111) and _-iel_ "daughter" seen in _Uinéniel_ "daughter
of Uinen" (UT:182), from _yelde, -iel_ "daughter" (Etym. s.v. YEL-, ref.
VT46:22).

(_yelde, -iel_ was rejected by Tolkien in the _Etymologies_, but it
seems they were revived with the writing of _Aldarion and Erendis_
and thus could maybe also be seen in _Undómiel_.)

If it really means "evening star" it must come from _undómi-_ as the
stem form of _undóme_; cf. the historical form _*dômi-_ "twilight"
from the root DOMO- (Etym.) and  the poetical form _él_ "star"
(Etym. s.v. EL-), but then someone who knows more about Quenya
phonology must answer me if the name would not be *_Undómiél_.
Even if _undómi- + él_ yields _Undómiel_ it seems to me that we have
no way of rejecting the interpretation _undóme + -iel_ or _undómi-
+ -iel_ "daughter of twilight_. I cannot find any place where
Tolkien explicitly states that _Undómiel_ means "evening star"
although he implies it all the time. Maybe "daughter of twilight"
was a poetical term for an evening star, playing on the two possible
interpretations of _Undómiel_, but now I am far out in speculation.

Hammond and Scull write that the name "evening star" was given to
Arwen perhaps because she was the last high born Elf in Middle-earth
during the time of their waning. It seems to me that "daughter of
twilight" would be even more fitting for a daughter born in the
(evening) twilight of her people.

PS. Thanks to Wayne and Christina for a wonderful book with
wonderful new passages from Tolkien's unpublished papers. I love
the passages about the Black Riders' plans and thoughts. It is only
because the book is so great that I am pointing out this minor
detail.

sincerely,
Peter Edelberg

[Tolkien states explicitly in _Nomenclature_ that "Evenstar" is the
translation of Q. _Undómiel_; see RC:757, entry _Evenstar_. The
gloss 'evening star' cited by Hammond and Scull in RC:205 is, if
I am not mistaken, simply their own slight rewording of Tolkien's
gloss 'Evenstar', the latter containing _even_, an archaic/poetic
noun of identical meaning to 'evening'.

As for Q. _él_ 'star' vs. _-el_ in _Undómiel_ -- the long vowel in
Quenya monosyllabic nouns was shortened when such nouns
were used as the last element in compounds. Thus Q. _már_
'home, dwelling' (S:356 s.v. _bar_, VT47:6) occurs as _-mar_
in _Eldamar, Valimar_, etc. Similarly, Q. _tár_ 'king' (V:389 s.v.
TÂ-, TA3-) occurs as _-tar_ in _Valatar_ 'Vala-king' (V:350
s.v. BAL-). However, note that the long vowel reappears with
the addition of certain case-endings; e.g., the genitive sing.
of _Valatar_ is _Valatáren_ (ibid.). -- PHW]