--- In lambengolmor@y..., "Carl F. Hostetter" <Aelfwine@e...> wrote:
> [I quite agree that it is _possible_ to create a dictionary of
> Tolkien's languages that will be _useful_ to scholar and student alike,
> through full and thorough source citation, cross-reference among entries,
> and by very careful consideration in writing the entries. But the fact is
> that the dictionaries I've seen thus far fall short of the mark.

Yes, I agree. Almost all of them are poorly and quickly done, without
citations and without any cross-references. One must say in defence
of the ones Helge Fauskanger has done, that they indeed do have
source citations (most don't), but of course, only from publications
available to the maker at the time of the creation.

[Part of the purpose of Web publishing is that documents can be kept up to
date with ease. I would have thought that Helge could have updated his
word-list some time in the past two years. Carl]

And so, the instance of the misinterpretation of _óre_ in "the Quenya
Corpus Wordlist" is not, in fact, the wholy best example, for VT41
had not been published during the making of the Wordlist. So the
discussions in VT41:11 weren't available for citations. The case is
different in his newer private "Quettaparma Quenyallo", since it
does refer to this issue.

[Helge has refused me a copy of his dictionary, so I wouldn't know. I do
wish he'd get the Tolkien Estate's blessing/permission and publish his
dictionary properly. As for _óre_, I never said it was the _best_ example;
but it is a good one. Further, Helge's is not a "misinterpretation", but
it is certainly an _incomplete_ interpretation, presenting as it does
only a small part of the available information about this word, and its
significance across the decades of Tolkien's creativity. Carl]

But even that wordlist, indeed, falls "short of the mark", not being
carefully made at all points. But it is the best Quenya-dictionary
I'm aware of. A much better one could be made, of that I am sure.

> Didier's dictionary (what  I've seen of it -- I _do_ wish Didier would
> get the Tolkien Estate's blessing/permission and publish it) does
> look like the best effort I've seen to date; but even he implies
> that it has shortcomings along the lines that I've mentioned (see:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/elfling/message/15989).

Yes, I am aware of them. But at least it is attempting to be accurate.

> In any event, no one has ever learned to _speak_ a dead language

No, not to fully speak. That is impossible for the simple
fact that to learn to fully _speak_ one must hear people
who actually _speak_ the language. If no speakers are
alive, the atempt to do so is doomed from the start.

> -- and Tolkien's languages are most assuredly that, and
> what's more, they have never been anything but --
> by reading a dictionary. Carl]

A dictionary can be a wonderful helper, but its contents
are dead without context.

Petri Tikka

Just my two cents:

I wrote Helge once on when he was going to revise his online
wordlist; he replied to me that he hasn't found the time to update
it. Make your own judgement (I won't).

[Clearly, I'm simply publishing new material too quickly for Helge
to keep up. ;) Carl]

Now on the suffix -eg/-ig (see _VT_ 42, p. 30 n.42):

While it was mentioned in the editorial note that _-eg/-ig_ is a
singular/diminutive suffix (as in _lotheg, nogotheg, lhewig,
gwanunig_), there is also a variant form -og as in _glamog_, one of
the Glamhoth, a kenning-word for Orc. I would surmise that the suffix
_-eg/-ig_ was descended from primitive _*iki/*ikê_, thus we have the
Q. suffix _inkë_ (with nasal infixion) as seen in _herinkë_ "*little
lady_ and Atarinkë "Little Father", the amilessë of Fëanor's son
Curufin. The S. variant -og can be surmised as being descended from
_*-uk-_ (with negative connotations) in the same way as Q. _-uñqua_
is to _-iñqua_.

[I have excised a great deal of extraneous quotation from this post.
Please take a little time and thought to pare down quotation to a useful
minimum, and don't hesitate to paraphrase. Carl]

Aiya, lambengolomor.

I'd like to comment upon the interesting question of dictionaries that has
been discussed recently.

Wed, 26 Jun 2002, Helios De Rosario Martinez wrote :

> A dictionary that provided a full record of meanings, compounds,
> occurrences and etymologies attested in Tolkien's texts for each word.

That's what I dream about too and lead me to begin to make such a
dictionary (only for Q(u)enya), mainly for a private use, but I hope that
maybe one day (not very soon : the dictionary is far from complete) it
could be published with the agreement of the Tolkien Estate (it's just a
dream !)...

[It should be well known that I support the Tolkien Estate's view that
substantial dictionaries of Tolkien's languages require their permission
for publication. This list will therefore not be used to advertise or
promote unauthorized dictionaries. However, it is entirely on topic to
discuss the desirable characteristics of dictionaries of Tolkien's
languages, and even to consider and propose a group effort at creating a
rigorous and useful dictionary for authorized publication. Carl]

But I can confirm that it's a *great* amount of work!

I'm using the wordlists available on the net (Quettaparma Quenyanna and
Helge's Quettaparma Quenyallo) and also Edouard Kloczko's dictionary, but
I'm trying to expand them, verifying them with the sources and searching
through *all* the corpus (that is: the all the sources available).

Hence I will not only give "LotR-style" Quenya or "mature" Quenya, but
all the samples of Q(u)enya ever published, rejected or not. I'm providing
the pronounciation (SAMPA or IPA), the references, some quotations (when a
word appears in a sentence or a poem) and some etymological reconstructions
whenever possible (I'm trying to make something very near to Didier Willis'
excellent Sindarin Dictionary).

But the main difference with the usual dictionaries or wordlists that I've
seen is that I want to give *all* the stages of the language, from 1915 to
Tolkien's death, because I think that a scholary study of Q(u)enya deserve
this (a "rejected" word may sometimes provide more linguistic information
than a "LotR-style" one). That's the reason why I give also the approximate
external dates of each word or form.

Carl commented :
> [Part of the purpose of Web publishing is that documents can be kept up
> to date with ease. I would have thought that Helge could have updated
> his word-list some time in the past two years. Carl]

That's why I'm making an xml dictionary (like Didier Willis' one), that
could be updated "easily".

But (there is a 'but'!), I'm not yet very skilled in phonetic (the
pronounciation of Quenya has still some shady parts to me). For example,
I wonder how the name _ancalima_ should be stressed. In Edouard Kloczko's
dictionary it is given as _%ANk"AlIm%A_, but the stress on _kAl_ seems
strange to me and _"ANkAl"ImA_ seems more "natural" to me (here I'm
using X-Sampa, with " for a primary stress and % for a secondary stress).
Am I wrong ? Or is it a debatable point ?

[Yes, you are wrong; no, it isn't debatable. The main accent in _ancalima_
is on the antepenult: _anCAlima_. Carl]

I'm not very experienced in Primitive Elvish and reconstructions of
possible etymologies of the words, so any help in this domain (and in
phonetics too) will be warmly welcomed !

If you want to see a "sample" of my dictionary, you can go to this url:
http://ardalambion.fr.free.fr/webmaster/Quenya%20Dictionary/dictipa.xml.

You will need the last version of Internet Explorer to view this xml file
(I don't know if it works for Netscape or other browsers) and the
Thryomanes unicode font, used because of the phonetic and the special
diacritics sometimes used by professor Tolkien (the font can be downloaded
here : http://packages.debian.org/unstable/x11/ttf-thryomanes.html).

[This font is distributed as a Debian package, which will be unusable to
a great many of us. Perhaps someone could make the font (it is open source
and freely distributable) available to us in a more readily usable form,
such as a .zip file? If so, I'll put the font in the Files area of this
group. Carl]

The * after a word indicates a "Qenya" word, deduced/hypothtetic forms are
in italic. I have made arbitrary and "artificial" categories for an easier
dating of the corpus: early, middle and late "Qenya" (E"Q", M"Q" & L"Q")
and early, middle and late Quenya (EQu, MQu & L Qu).

I'd like to add that this is an "old" version of my dictionary : I have
advanced (a little) further and corrected some things since this version.

Any feedback is welcome!

Sébastien Bertho.

Enaiya !

I must apologize : I gave a wrong link for the Thryomanes font in my last
post. A working link :
ftp://ftp.io.com/pub/usr/hmiller/fonts/Thryomanes11.zip

[I have added a Mac OS X-friendly version of these fonts as a Stuffit
archive to the Files area of this group:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lambengolmor/files/
Carl]

For the version of the browser needed to see the page : it must be IE 6
(else the page isn't displayed correctly).

A note about the dictionary :  the curved brackets {...} indicate a
rejected form (a form that was clearly replaced by another in a text of
Tolkien).

Sorry for this rather boring post and for my mistake !

Sébastien

As I mentioned earlier, the new Sotheby's auction catalogue (L02303:
London, Bond Street 11 Jul 02 - 12 Jul 02, Literature and Illustration)
features a number of Tolkien lots, including two that will be of interest
to students of his invented languages: Lot 781 features a runic table by
Tolkien, included in a copy of _The Hobbit_ as a key to the Anglo-Saxon
runic system employed in that book; and Lot 785, a set of _The Lord of the
Rings_ inscribed by Tolkien with a _tengwar_ version of the phrase _Nai
hiruvalye Valimar_ from "Galadriel's Lament". The two items can be seen,
and the catalogue purchased, at:

http://search.sothebys.com/jsps/live/lot/LotDetail.jsp?lot_id=3THKB

and

http://search.sothebys.com/jsps/live/lot/LotDetail.jsp?lot_id=3THKG

respectively.


|======================================================================|
| Carl F. Hostetter      Aelfwine@...     http://www.elvish.org |
|                                                                      |
|                ho bios brachys, he de techne makre.                  |
|                      Ars longa, vita brevis.                         |
|            The lyf so short, the craft so long to lerne.             |
|    "I wish life was not so short," he thought.  "Languages take      |
|    such a time, and so do all the things one wants to know about."   |
|======================================================================|

Carl F. Hostetter wrote on 4 June 2002:

>There is something in particular that I would like to solicit input on from
>any readers of _VT_ that are on this list: namely, errata. If you've noticed
>typos of any sort (spelling, punctuation, grammar, citation error,
>misquotation, etc.) in any issue of _VT_ (well, 10 and up, since issues
>earlier than that can only be "reprinted" by photocopying), I want to know
>about them so that I can correct them in future reprintings.

If future reprintings are going to be revised, I suggest that this
fact be stated clearly on the reprints, otherwise confusion will most
definitely ensue when differing citations from revised and unrevised
versions start showing up.

[That's a good suggestion, and one I'll give some thought to how best to
indicate the fact. Some revisions have, of course, already been silently
incorporated in various reprintings. Reprintings, by the way, are usually
able to be distinguished from original printings by the fact that their
covers are plain paper (i.e., the same paper as the conents); whereas
original printings used a heavier, textured papers for the cover (only).
Carl]

I also suggest that, in addition to posting a complete list of errata
on the _VT_ website, you should also periodically publish lists of
newly observed errata in _VT_ itself, for the benefit of those few
subscribers who do not (or choose not to) have Internet access.

[Another good suggestion. The problem there is going to be a usual lack of
space in the printed issues. Carl]

It would also be a good idea to announce which issues are being
reissued with a revised text, for the benefit of the die-hard
completists who would want to have both the old and new versions.

[At this point, I doubt that I could produce such a list. In any event,
none of the revisions made to date have been substantive, being limited
to typos and the like. Corrections of argument or linguistic detail have
always been made in letters or articles in subsequent issues. Carl]

This would be an ideal place to note that the second printing of
_Parma Eldalmaberon_ #11 incorporated a few corrections, and though
it is clearly labelled as a "second impression", I don't recall that
the fact that it is a *corrected* edition was announced anywhere.  To
the best of my knowledge, three errors were corrected in the second
impression:

p. 23, col. 2, l. 2:  "mutatation" > "mutation";
p. 53, col. 1, l. 13:  "_lattta_" > "_latta_";
back cover:  "haprwire" > "harpwire".

The second impression also included a change in the phone and fax
information on the back cover, as well as (of course) new printing
information on the inside of the back cover.

--
********************************************************************
      Arden R. Smith                          erilaz@...

     "Do you know Languages?  What's the French for fiddle-de-dee?"
     "Fiddle-de-dee's not English," Alice replied gravely.
     "Who ever said it was?" said the Red Queen.

                                       --Lewis Carroll,
                                        _Through the Looking-glass_
********************************************************************

Arden,

In VT44, p. 37 n. 3 you write:

"Another Quenya preposition with a similar form and meaning is
_epe_ 'after' (VT42:32), seen also in _epesse_ 'after-name'
(UT:266, XII:339)."

And on the next page Bill Welden corrects his VT42 article:
"_epe_ 'after'. The gloss should be 'before'."

Are both meanings, 'before' and 'after', attested for _epe_ in
Tolkien's papers?

/Fredrik

[Yes. Arden's cross-reference to _VT_ 42 was an editorial oversight, due
to his article being written and prepared for publication before Bill's
letter was submitted. The cross-reference to UT and XII, of course, remain
valid. Carl]

With the Elfling list now back under the sole moderation of David Salo (a
consequence of the departures, in rapid succession, of John Cowan and Cirk
Bejnar upon David's return as moderator), it seems especially timely to announce
the re-creation of the Elfling-d meta-discussion group. This list will serve the
sole legitimate purpose extractable from that announced for the now-defunct
original Elfling-d in the official Elfling welcome message
(http://www.terracom.net/~dorothea/elfling.html):

"Any concerns regarding management can be addressed to the management staff. Be
aware that a separate list, elfling-d, serves as a public record of insulting or
abusive comments to Elfling's moderation team. Any such comment sent to the
elfling-owner address or any of the private addresses of the moderation team is
subject to posting to elfling-d, where it will be world-readable."

Namely, this list will serve as a forum for discussing the Elfling list's
management/moderation and adherence to its stated mission. It will further serve
as a parallel discussion forum for graylisted or otherwise censored members to
post their censored messages and to conduct their discussions.

As such, this list will be (unlike Elfling) truly unmoderated. However, only
members may post (so as to keep out spam and virus-generated mail-messages).

List archives are publicly accessible at:

     http://groups.yahoo.com/group/elfling-d/

To join, visit the archive page, or send an e-mail message to:

     elfling-d-subscribe@yahoogroups.com

>"_epe_ 'after'. The gloss should be 'before'."

I see. May I ask, then, what was Bill's motivation to correct/change the
gloss of _epe_?

(Note that my question concerns the attested meaning(s) of the word _epe_,
regardless of what may be guessed from the word _epessi_.)

/Fredrik

[Short answer: Bill discovered that he'd given the wrong translation for
_epe_ from the source document in question. Carl]

--- In lambengolmor@y..., Fredrik <gwaihir@s...> wrote:

> >"_epe_ 'after'. The gloss should be 'before'."
>
> I see. May I ask, then, what was Bill's motivation to correct/change the
> gloss of _epe_?

In the document I cited, _epe_ is clearly glossed 'before'. As a
novice to this sort of work, I glossed the word based on my
(incorrect) confidence that it meant 'after', without bothering to
check the reference. I have learned my lesson, and spent quite a few
hours looking up the references for the work I did in the latest VT.

--Bill

Greeting :)

"With such changes of 'mind-mood' or inwisti their lámatyáver might
also change." [Laws & Customs - Of Naming]

I can see two hypothesis :
1) _inwisti_ refers to 'mind-mood'
2) _inwisti_ refers to the *changes* of 'mind-mood'

_inwisti_ seems to be in the plural, and I don't see any element in
this word which is related to mind or mood as far as I know. So I
would tend to 2) But it is not evident to me.

Did I miss some text which would shed a light ? or have someone any
idea ?

Jerome

In Message #97, Jerome / "Erestel" queries a passage in "Of the Laws and
Customs among the Eldar" (X:216) that states: "With such changes of 'mind-
mood' or _inwisti_ their _lámatyáver_ might also change." Jerome says of
the word _inwisti_:

> I can see two hypothesis :
> 1) _inwisti_ refers to 'mind-mood'
> 2) _inwisti_ refers to the *changes* of 'mind-mood'
>
> _inwisti_ seems to be in the plural, and I don't see any element in
> this word which is related to mind or mood as far as I know. So I
> would tend to 2) But it is not evident to me.

The evidence supports hypothesis 1), actually. Here is what Carl F.
Hostetter and I wrote regarding _inwisti_ in "_Morgoth's Ring_: A
Linguistic Review -- Part I" (VT34:19-20):

"_inwisti_ -- 'mind-mood', in _Laws and Customs_ a term describing one's
tastes and interests, which might change over the course of time (216).
The first element appears as a separate word _inno_ 'mind' [> _indo_] in
this same passage. In an earlier draft the form is _inwaldi_, with 'mind'
given as _ín_, _indo_ (229-30 n.16). The origin of the elements _-wisti_,
_-waldi_ 'mood' in these forms is unclear, unless we are to assume some
connection with _vista_ 'air as substance' (LR:399 s.v. WIS-) and _vald-_
'blessedness, happiness' (< VALA; LT1:272). See also _indo_ 'mind'."

By the way, I don't find the etymological connections for _-wisti_,
_-waldi_ that Carl and I tentatively proposed in this entry to be
particularly compelling, though at the moment I'm at a loss to think of
any better alternatives. Perhaps someone else has some suggestions?

-- Patrick Wynne

[Complete text of original message snipped. Please don't quote unnecessarily.
Carl]

Thanks for the cross-reference to VT/34. Very interesting ...
And this interpretation leads me to a similar one which would involve
hypothesis 2) as well :
_in-_ <-> mind-mood
_-wisti_ <-> changes (connected with WIS- > _vista_ air ?)

Indeed we may expect that Tolkien gives a gloss like 'mind-mood' to
explain that we are speeking not exactly of what is usually
understood by 'mind' in english, but of something between 'mind'
and 'mood' ... By the way the Etymologies gives _indo_ = heart,
*mood* [HOME V/361].

2) has my preference (órenya quetë nin ... ;)) but I am not entirely
sure.

Jerome

It seems to me that the most likely etymology for _inwisti_ would
derive _wisti_ from some latter-day counterpart of the QL root GWIDI-
(PE12:103), whence Qenya _'wiste_ 'weft', as well as _'Wirilóme_
'Gloomweaver', a name of the Great Spider.  If this is the case, then
the literal meaning of _inwisti_ might be something like
*'mind-weaving(s)' or *'the fabric of the mind'.

--
*********************************************************************
          Arden R. Smith                  erilaz@...

              Perilme metto aimaktur perperienta.
                                          --Elvish proverb
*********************************************************************

As stated by Didier Willis in a recent Elfling post, "language and history
are intertwined". This brings in the question of the history of the Quenya
translation of "Pater Noster", "Átaremma". Jesus or Christianity is not
mentioned anywhere in Tolkien's mythology of Middle-earth. How is it then
possible that there is a translation of "Pater Noster" to Quenya? Of course,
one could say that this translation has no historical siginficance in
Tolkien's writings, it is not inside the invented history.

But there are another explenations. As many times stated and seen in
Tolkien's mythological writings, the history he creates is the very ancient
history of the world. And as all throughout the "HoMe", he never abonded the
concept of an Anglo-Saxon mariner who finds _Tol Eressea_ of the departed
elves, and who translates various Elvish writings into Old English:
Aelfwine. Maybe he is the one who introduced "Pater Noster" to translation
in Quenya?

Yet one possibility is that a traveler from later times brought the prayer
to Tol Eressea. This is supported by the fact that the translation often
times approaces later English translations of the prayer more than other
versions.

What is then the internal history of the translation? Unless (being very
improbable) any more information comes out, this is a matter of pure
speculation.

Petri Tikka  Helsinki, Finland
kari.j.tikka@...
http://www.geocities.com/petristikka/

[It is not true, strictly speaking, that Jesus is not mentioned within
the framework of Tolkien's mythology: the Trinity is clearly present in
the _Qenya Lexicon_, and Christ is clearly foreshadowed in the _Athrabeth
Finrod ah Andreth_. Moreover, the Holy Spirit, by the name of the Secret
Flame / Fire, is prominently present throughout the mythology. Carl]

There are currently two theories about the etymology of the Quenya word
_imíca_ "among" (VT43:28):

1. by Carl Hostetter: _imi_ (VT34:30) + partitive ending _-ika_ (VT28:29-30)
2. by Helge Fauskanger: an extension or intensification of _mi_ (LR:373)
= _imî_ + adjectival suffix _-ca_ (PM:363)

Carl's theory conflicts with _mika_ (VT43:11), which doesen't include a
long _í_ from the merging of _i_+_ika_. Of course, Tolkien may have
only forgotten to mark the long vowel, but that must not be used as
concrete evidence.

The adjectival ending _-ca_ is seen only after dipthongs and consonants,
cf. _faika_ "contemptible, mean" (V:387), _helka_ "icy, icecold"
(V:364), _nwalka_ "cruel" (V:377) and _soika_ "thirsty" (VT39:11).

But there is the word _néka_ "pale, vague, faint, dim to see" (MC:221-223),
which has either
1. lengthening of the stem wowel *NE + adjectival ending _-ca_
2. *NÉ + an adjectival ending
Both options are neither supported nor denied by the available material,
since stem vowel can't be lengthened if it already has a dipthong or it is
a closed syllable, cf. _oilima_ "last" (MC:213, 214) vs _métima_ "last"
(MC:221-223) and _oantië_ vs _avánië_ (WJ:366). The firs option might
refute Helge's theory, but it wouldn't support Carl's either, since _mica_
doesen't have a long vowel.

Helge's theory is slightly supported by the fact that his endings are
attested in a latter period and Carl's because it is more succint. Still
yet Helge's theory of the adjectival ending _-ca_ being used to make a
preposition, supported by _hekwâ_ "leaving aside, not counting, excluding,
except" (WJ:365), accounts for _mika_, while Carl's doesen't. It can thus
explain with attested parallels both _imíca_ and _mika_, while Hostetter's
theory can't.

Petri Tikka  Helsinki, Finland
kari.j.tikka@...
http://www.geocities.com/petristikka/

[If the partitive ending _-ika_ cannot account for both _imíca_ and
_mika_, then I fail to see how an adjectival ending _-ka_ can be held to
account for _mika_ and _imíca_, when *_imí-_ is unattested.

Moreover, your treatment of the two explanations of _imíca_ fails to take
the _meaning_ of _imíca_ into account. 'among' is an inherently partitive
meaning; a partitive ending is thus eminently suitable for this
preposition. And 'among' is _not_ an adjective.

If Helge can point to a non-partitive preposition in _-(i)ka_, then I
might give some credence to this. Until then, I see no reason to count
Helge's adjectival-conjunction-in-_-wa_ as evidence in support of his
adjectival derivation of a partitive preposition in _-ka_, nor to prefer
it to my explanation; and I certainly do not agree that my explanation
cannot account for both forms. Carl]

> [It is not true, strictly speaking, that Jesus is not mentioned within
> the framework of Tolkien's mythology: the Trinity is clearly present in
> the _Qenya Lexicon_, and Christ is clearly foreshadowed in the _Athrabeth
> Finrod ah Andreth_. Moreover, the Holy Spirit, by the name of the Secret
> Flame / Fire, is prominently present throughout the mythology. Carl]

Thank you, but I was completely aware of the foreshadowing of Christ in the
_Athrabeth_ and the Holy Spirit being the Secret Flame. Yet it is
not true, strictly speaking, that Jesus and Christianity are mentioned
within the framework of Tolkien's mythology: while the Trinity is
present in the _Qenya Lexicon_, and Christ is clearly foreshadowed in the
_Athrabeth Finrod ah Andreth_, they are not actually _named_ anywhere.
I am not a master of English, so I am not always fully aware of all the
connotations of English words. I meant _mentioning_ as in the sense of
concrete _naming_. Is Jesus mentioned in the Old Testament? I would say
yes and no. No, because he is not explicitly described anywhere. Yes,
because his future actions can be associated with desriptions of a coming
saviour. Exactly the same things can be said about Tolkien's mythology.

P.S. Is there/what is an/the internal background for _Qenya Lexicon_
provided by Tolkien? I wouldn't know it, since it is completely
unavailable to me.

Petri Tikka Helsinki, Finland
kari.j.tikka@...
http://www.geocities.com/petristikka/

Petri Tikka wrote:

> But there is the word _néka_ "pale, vague, faint, dim to see" (MC:221-223),
> which has either
> 1. lengthening of the stem wowel *NE + adjectival ending _-ca_
> 2. *NÉ + an adjectival ending

    Is it not also possible that the _c_ (_k_) is a part of the stem? This
kind of formation -- lengthened sundóma and addition of _-a_ -- is
typically used for nouns, but is it impossible that an adjective could
be formed in the same way (from an adjectival root)?

     Suilad,

         Beregond

Erestel wrote:

> "With such changes of 'mind-mood' or inwisti their lámatyáver might
> also change." [Laws & Customs - Of Naming]
>
> I can see two hypothesis :
> 1) _inwisti_ refers to 'mind-mood'
> 2) _inwisti_ refers to the *changes* of 'mind-mood'
>
> _inwisti_ seems to be in the plural, . . . So I
> would tend to 2)

    This argument has some force, yet 1) seems to me the natural
way to read the sentence. I therefore suppose the plurality (if
such it is) of _inwisti_ is a constructio ad sensum, due to the several
moods implied by the occurrence of changes.

    As for the etymology of *_inwiste_, my simple guess is
*_inwe_ + *_iste_, where *_inwe_ would be a relative to _indo_
'mind', and *_iste_ the formal and semantic equivalent to Gnomish
_ist_ "feeling, sensation. -- notion" (GL (in PE XI)).

     Meneg suilaid,

         Beregond

I do not know if this has been discussed before, but having read "Notes on
Óre", I encountered the name Ekyanáro, said to be variant form of the
Aikanáro. While the first element of the former is very likely to be
derived from the root EK "stab, prick with a sharp point", the latter is
from GAYA "dread, awe". We also have the stem AYAK in The Etymologies
meaning "sharp" Could it be, in Tolkien's later conceptions, that the
gloss "sharp" in _aika_ be perhaps influenced by _ekya_? We cannot
really discount the Sindarin derivatives of AJAK (obsolete though the
stem may be IMHO) because of the attested form _aeglir_ (as in Hithaeglir).

Some discussion on this matter is very much appreciated, confusing though
this post may be.

Aiya!

Have you ever thought of creating a linguistic database of Tolkien's
languages, at least for Quenya? That would greatly improve scholarly
process, and it is especially useful for Tolkien's languages where we have
an extra vital parameter of the chronology of the evolvement of Quenya.

If none of you know any existing database suitable for our purposes it
would be a great idea to create one.


Namaarie! S.Y., Elenhil Laiquendo


: masse sii nar i nuunatani · elessar · elessar? :

[A comprehensive database of all of Tolkien's languages (limiting it to
Quenya only would be unnecessarily limiting of its utility), at all stages
of their development, would be a powerful tool indeed. It would, of
course, require the permission of the Tolkien Estate for its publication.
Carl]

At 7/20/02 10:27 AM , Boris Shapiro wrote:

>Have you ever thought of creating a linguistic database of Tolkien's
>languages, at least for Quenya? That would greatly improve scholarly
>process, and it is especially useful for Tolkien's languages where we have
>an extra vital parameter of the chronology of the evolvement of Quenya.

Oddly enough, I thought of this idea about 4-6 months ago. I've since been
implementing it, and it's nearly ready for comments and testing.

>[A comprehensive database of all of Tolkien's languages (limiting it to
>Quenya only would be unnecessarily limiting of its utility), at all stages
>of their development, would be a powerful tool indeed. It would, of
>course, require the permission of the Tolkien Estate for its publication.
>Carl]

The necessity of TE permission has not escaped me -- not only is it alluded
to in a couple of FAQ questions in my database system, and in the copyright
notice at the bottom of every page it serves up, but I've also kept the
data-set as limited as I can at the moment, loading in just enough
information for testing purposes and to fill the various categories and
parts of speech.

Your suggestion that it should cover all of Tolkien's languages is a good
one, and one I'll have to ponder. I *think* that expanding this database
system (which I currently call _Quettahostanie_) to include other languages
might be fairly easy.

I'm tidying up a few loose ends, and have a busy weekend ahead of me, but I
should have a system fairly soon that will enable remote users (i.e., the
rest of you) to look at the back-end, and even edit database entries if
desired. ("Fairly soon" means "probably by Monday evening, Pacific-coast-US
time".) In the meantime, I think the front-end is in good enough condition
to be seen by the world (or at least by a bunch of _lambengolmor_), with
the following notes:

1) This is still something of a work in progress. In particular, I'd
    love to have people's reactions on the documentation, the usability,
    the interface, and whatnot. Is it easy to figure out how to use? Does
    it have sufficient functionality? Can it do everything you think it
    should be able to? (Aside from handling languages besides Quenya, or
    allowing you to edit the contents.)
2) I have always intended that this should eventually become a collab-
    orative tool, usable by multiple scholars across the world. I am open
    to suggestions on the mechanics of validating editors, maintaining
    updates, and so on.
3) As described in various places in the system, I am planning to seek
    the Tolkien Estate's permission before loading more of their intel-
    lectual property into the database. Suggestions for approaches to
    take, approaches to avoid, and alterations in the system that might
    make their permission more likely are also quite welcome.
4) There are undoubtedly cases where I've missed one or more attesta-
    tions, or where there should be a green check mark in the Diachrony
    display. I do not have all of Tolkien's works, and so I only marked
    things that I could be sure of. (This is one reason for eventually
    making it collaborative -- it will allow greater sharing of schol-
    arly knowledge, and greater accuracy than I can provide on my own.)
    Please do not discount Quettahostanie on the basis of its creator's
    lack of material and knowledge! (And feel free to email me point-
    ing out such inaccuracies.)
5) Since I wanted Quettahostanie to also be usable by the "average"
    Elfling member, and even to be comprehensible by a random Web
    surfer who wanders in, some of the documentation is extremely
    simple. (For example, descriptions of what Quenya is.) The docu-
    mentation was intended for a broad-based population, and is *not*
    what I would have written if I were only targeting members of this
    list! (In other words, if you feel like the docs are "talking down
    to you", those parts are intended for other people, like folks who
    have just seen Peter Jackson's movie and done a Web search on
    "Tolkien".)

That being said, you can see the Quettahostanie database at:

http://www.freaknation.com/quenya/

I will probably not be available to answer questions (or read comments) for
roughly the next 24 hours -- perhaps more like 36 -- but I will be happy to
catch up on list mail then. Please use your own judgement on whether to
send comments to this list (where they can be picked over and usefully
added to by others), or to my personal inbox (where they won't be
cluttering up this list). No need to send to both places.

And thank you all in advance for whatever feedback you can provide.

                                                  --Kai MacTane
----------------------------------------------------------------------
"And the Devil in a black dress watches over,
   My guardian angel walks away..."
                                                  --Sisters of Mercy,
                                                   "Temple of Love"

Just FYI: Patrick Wynne has agreed to help me moderate this list.


--

|======================================================================|
| Carl F. Hostetter      Aelfwine@...     http://www.elvish.org |
|                                                                      |
|                ho bios brachys, he de techne makre.                  |
|                      Ars longa, vita brevis.                         |
|            The lyf so short, the craft so long to lerne.             |
|    "I wish life was not so short," he thought.  "Languages take      |
|    such a time, and so do all the things one wants to know about."   |
|======================================================================|

Carl,

VT44:9, in the entry for _illume_, glosses _ullume_  "for ever (possibly
lit. 'not ever, not always')".  The Lost Road p. 72 translates it with "not
... forever". This seems to be a typo in VT.

Alex

===
Alex Grigny de Castro
mailto:a.grigny@...
http://members.ams.chello.nl/a.grigny
XelaG
mailto:xelag@...
http://www.imatowns.com/xelagot


[_The Lost Road_ p. 72 does not gloss _ullume_ as 'not...forever'.
The entire line from Fíriel's song is as follows:

_nan úye sére indo-ninya símen, ullume_
'But my heart resteth not here for ever'

Here 'resteth not' glosses _úye sére_, in which _úye_ is the negative
form of _ye_ 'is' (also in Fíriel's song) and _sére_ is either the noun
'rest' (V:385 s.v. SED-) or a stem form of the verb 'to rest'; a case can
be made for either interpretation. In any event, _ullume_ thus technically
corresponds to 'for ever' in Tolkien's English gloss, although it almost
certainly begins with a negative element and must literally mean 'not
ever, not always'.

-- Patrick Wynne]

>
>[_The Lost Road_ p. 72 does not gloss _ullume_ as 'not...forever'.
>The entire line from Fíriel's song is as follows:
>
>_nan úye sére indo-ninya símen, ullume_
>'But my heart resteth not here for ever'
>
>Here 'resteth not' glosses _úye sére_, in which _úye_ is the negative
>form of _ye_ 'is' (also in Fíriel's song) and _sére_ is either the noun
>'rest' (V:385 s.v. SED-) or a stem form of the verb 'to rest'; a case can
>be made for either interpretation. In any event, _ullume_ thus technically
>corresponds to 'for ever' in Tolkien's English gloss, although it almost
>certainly begins with a negative element and must literally mean 'not
>ever, not always'.
>
>-- Patrick Wynne]

Thanks for your explanation, Patrick. Still, the whole sense of
_nan úye sére indo-ninya símen, ullume_
seems to indicate to me that _ullume_ should be translated "not forever",
as it is preceded by a pause in the Q. sentence (but not in the english one)
"but my heart does not rest here, [pause] not for ever" = "but my heart
does not rest here for ever"

Alex

===
Alex Grigny de Castro
mailto:a.grigny@...
http://members.ams.chello.nl/a.grigny
XelaG
mailto:xelag@...
http://www.imatowns.com/xelagot


[Um, isn't this exactly what I said in my response quoted above,
i.e., that _ullume_ "almost certainly begins with a negative
element and must literally mean 'not ever, not always'? Tolkien's
gloss of this line in V:72 is not, however, literal; hence you
yourself have to reword it as "but my heart does not rest here,
[pause] not for ever" in order to get across the full, _literal_
meaning of the Quenya. Tolkien's own gloss, with 'for ever'
instead of 'not for ever', probably results from a desire to avoid
using a double negative, a real 'no-no' (!) in English. -- Patrick
Wynne]

At 16:45 21/07/2002 +0200, you wrote:

>[Um, isn't this exactly what I said in my response quoted above,
>i.e., that _ullume_ "almost certainly begins with a negative
>element and must literally mean 'not ever, not always'?

Yes, this is exactly my point. So a stand-alone translation of _ullume_
(as in VT44:9) should be "not for ever" imho.

Alex


===
Alex Grigny de Castro
mailto:a.grigny@...
http://members.ams.chello.nl/a.grigny
XelaG
mailto:xelag@...
http://www.imatowns.com/xelagot


["Not ever, not always" means exactly the same thing as "not forever".
"Ever" here means "forever": From Webster's Revised Unabridged
Dictionary -- "2. At all times; through all time; always; forever." Carl]

VT44:9 quote:
"the same final element occurs in _ullume_ 'for ever' (possibly lit.
'not-ever, not-always') [...]"
unquote.

This 'for ever' is what I am refering to, Carl, not to the further gloss
which is correct. Anyway, I now understand what is meant if not written to
my satisfaction in my poor knowledge of the Albion lingo :)

Alex

===
Alex Grigny de Castro
mailto:a.grigny@...
http://members.ams.chello.nl/a.grigny
XelaG
mailto:xelag@...
http://www.imatowns.com/xelagot

[OK, I see your point. The wording in _VT_ does perhaps silently import
more than it should: the knowledge that by writing _ullume_ 'for ever'
we are conveying Tolkien's gloss, which needs to be understood as not a
literal gloss. Carl]

Hello everyone !

So, I see that Carl has created a new mailing list. And it looks very
good.
I finally managed to join and I'm looking forwards to being a member.

May the list thrive and be enjoyable and enlightening for all of us.
Please excuse this one off topic message. It will remain the only one.

BTW, I do not seem to get the individual messages sent to my email
address, although I specified it to be so in the settings. Can the
moderator(s) help me ?

Regards,

David Kiltz

Dear Lambengolmor,

One recent issue of Vinyar Tengwar (namely #43) has provided us with a
number of words featuring the ending _-i/ando_:

_lucindor_ (the variant _lucandor_ appears once)
_*rocindo_ (actually attested is _rocindillomman_)
_úcarindor_ (úlcarindor) and
_naicandor_.

For an interpretation of these forms see VT 43, p.20 sub _lucandor_ and
ibid., p. 33 sub _úcarindor_).

In addition to these forms, we find _melindo_ glossed "lover" in The
Etymologies (in The Lost Road, HoME V) sub entry MEL- and _cormacolindor_
in LotR III, chapter 4.

This leaves us with an ending _-Vndo_ described by the editors of VT as
"masc. agentive suffix" in VT 43, p.20 sub _lucandor_.

While the qualification as "agentive suffix" doesn't seem wrong, I will
attempt a more specific interpretation in what follows.

It is probably communis opinio that there is more than one suffix attested
in Quenya that serves to form nomina agentis. The most prominent are _-mo_
and -ar. Cf. such words as _Elentirmo_ "Star-watcher" in UT, p. 167 and
213 and for the second ending a word like _ohtar_ "warrior" in UT, p. 282
or _Telcontar_ "Strider" in LotR IV, chapter 8. There are more examples
but these few may suffice.

Both _-mo_ (for a hint of its origin cf. VT 42, p.34, footnote 3) and
_-ar_ seem to denote habitual occupation/action. While _cormacolindor_ is
conveniently translated into English as "Ring-bearers" the notion of
habitual or continues occupation/action doesn't really fit here. Both
Frodo and (even more) Sam aren't qualified by usually/habitually bearing
a/the ring. Rather, they are the ones that *have borne the ring". Likewise
the above words for "sinner" can fittingly be interpreted as "those that
have wronged/sinned against us". The context makes that pretty clear, I
think. So, I would venture to say that in the specific context these don't
mean "those that habitually sin against us" but "those that actually
happen to have done so". In short, I would suggest that _Vndo_ is a
"personalized" form of a participle past active that should end in *_Vnda_.

Now, I'm not aware of any published material that explicitly notes such an
interpretation. Indeed, it isn't even sure such a participle featured (at
any given time) in J.R.R.Tolkien's concept of Quenya. Note, however, that
the Early Noldorin Grammar (published in Parma Eldalamberon XIII) exhibits
such forms. The form _*mannel_ later _madannel_ from the root MAD- "to
eat" may serve as an example (Parma Eldalamberon, p.131). Noldorin (more
or less later Sindarin) has always, as far as I know, been conceived as
being related to Quenya. Thus, the assumption that similar forms exist in
Quenya may not be too far off. The formation of this form _*mannel_ is
furthermore of interest. It seems to be analyzable as *_mad-n-ilaa_.

If we accept for a moment the hypothesis about the Quenya form as stated
above, I would very tentatively analyze it as e.g. _col-in-d/laa or _-loo_
respectively. It's tempting to interprete it as the ubiquitous _-in of the
past participle (normally in its adjectival form _-ina_ but also in its
shorter variant _-in_) plus an element _-da_. Now, _-da_ might just be the
adjectival ending seen in _el-da_ (cf. HoME XI, "Quendi and Eldar sub
*ELE). However, perhaps it can be connected with the ending _-la_ of the
present participle (cf. "the Last Ark" in "A Secret Vice"). The latter
obviously attaches to the continuative stem in PE *_aa_. I'm not sure
whether a combinatory soundchange N+L > ND can be demonstrated. Were it
the other way round, that is, the **D is old and that > *L later, we'd be
in trouble since such a development is, AFAIK, only attested at the
beginning of a word. To circumnavigate such a problem, we'd have to assume
that a particle **DAA could be freely attached to verbal forms and
univerbation took place late in the present participle, hence facilitating
a development **DAA  > *LAA before the nexus VERB-aa+laa became fix. This
latter assumption seems to be very far fetched and should, IMHO, be
discarded.

While the origin of *_-Vnda_ as < **Vn+laa is hardly demonstrable it is,
IMHO, at least not unlikely and would give us the ingredients we'd need
for a participle past active. Also, it would seemingly feature the same
elements as its Noldrin counterpart.

The form _melindo_ is problematic. A "lover" is not someone who has loved
but loves presently. One could interprete the form as quasi preterito-
presentic derived from a perfective meaning of the root. Thus _mel-_ would
mean "come to love, fall in love". Then, _melindo_ would denote someone
who "has come to love/fallen in love" and hence "loves". Such an
interpretation seems artificial, though. My best guess, by keeping up the
above suggested hypothesis, would be that _melindo_ is an "intermittent"
form, one that was actually conceived as an agental formation. Only to be
later in disaccord with a reinterpretation (or shifting back to prior
ideas) of the continuously evolving Quenya we all love.

I'm eagerly awaiting your comments. All errors in citing attested forms
are mine.

-David

[Folks: let's not use needless abbreviations, especially where they are
not very widely known, and where they aren't spelled out in full at least
at their first usage in a post, and especially not in subject lines.
Thanks, Carl.]

Aiya!

   So, about LDB [linguistic databases]. I suppose we all want to make
   clear what features do we want it to possess. Probably the best way to
   do it is to analyze a Quenya phrase providing all the linguistic
   information we need this database to store.

   Let's use "Elen siila luumenn' omentielvo". I confess I may be short
   of knowledge to undertake an all-encompassing analysis of it.
   Perhaps the venerable lambengolmor would give us a valuable lesson?


Namaarie! S.Y., Elenhil Laiquendo


: eressea, eldamar i laa fiirimo tuvitas pole :


[Engaging in the close analysis of a phrase that Boris is inviting is
great. However, I'm of mixed mind about whether this forum is the right
one for the broader topic of laying the groundwork for a proposed
database; but I'll allow it for now at least, so long as it doesn't drift
off topic. (It's not that the topic itself is necessarily unsuitable for a
linguistics mailing list, I just fear that it will either overwhelm the
list, or quickly drift off topic, or both.) I would ask that everyone
wanting to participate in a broader discussion of linguistic database
issues please prefix all of your posts with [LDB] (yes, I know what I just
said above, and I appreciate the irony), so that those not interested can
easily avoid them. Thanks, Carl]