In Lambengolmor message 924
(<http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/lambengolmor/message/924>),
Philipp Marquart wrote of N. _Thilim_ that:

>the ending _-im_ is very peculiar, it may be connected with _lim,
>rim_ "many"(V:369, as in _orodrim_ (ÔR-OT)) but that is very
>unlikely (could it be a comparative ending, intensifying _Thil_?).
>We may rather assume an alternative adjectival ending in _-im_.

Perhaps _-im_ is best explainable as being the cognate of Quenya
_-(i)ma_ or _-(i)me_. Compare the stem SIL- (variant of THIL-; V:385)
with derivatives _silimâ_ 'silver, shining white (adj.)' > Q. _silma_,
N. _*silef_. The latter form is theoretical and does not occur in Noldorin;
generally Sindarin and Noldorin do not show _-ef_, see "Quendi & Eldar":

"_Fíreb_ as compared with _Fírima_ shows the use of a different suffix,
[...] since the S equivalent of Q _-ima_ (*_-ef_) was not current." (XI:387)

I guess that Tolkien disliked the sound of _-ef_ and avoided it
(although it is a straightfoward etymological consequence). In the
given example he may have rejected the lenition of _m_, whatever
internal explanation may have stood behind this (lacking lenition  of
_m_ is known in the northern dialect of Sindarin, e.g. in the name
_Celegorm_).

There is also no a-affection, so I suppose _thilim_ derives from
_*thilimê_ 'silvery light' (cf. _silimê_ 'light of Silpion' (V:385))
and is put into genitive position - _Neleg Thilim_ *'a tooth of
silvery/gleaming light'. On the other hand forms without a-affection
sometimes occur as well, e.g. _celebrin_ (V:367), later changed to
_celebren_. This way, _thilim_ would be an adjective from _*thilimâ_,
a variant of _silimâ_.

Apparently Tolkien made up another solution later - we find _silivren_
in _The Lord of the Rings_, where a second ending _-ren_ seems to be
attached.


Roman Rausch

In VII:223 is a nice poem (written around August 1940) in which
the name _Nimrodel_, and its precedent forms, first appears. We have
_Linglorel_, _Inglorel_, _Nimladel_, _Nimlorel_, _Nimlothel_ >>
_Nimrodel_; note that the third and fourth forms were composed before
the song (cf. VII:222, note 17). Only the last forms were apparently
corrected while the other forms were allowed to stand. Via Google I
found a forum archive containing translations for some of these forms
written by a pseudonymous "Dark Lord Andúril" ("DLA")
<http://www.minastirith.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?
ubb=print_topic;f=20;t=000140>; I shall note them at the end of each
word-discussion. My analysis is presented here in a more "compact"
manner than my previous posts: All the (suggested) elements of words,
or compounds (for that's what they primarly are), are given with the
meaning as far as known or reconstructable. To distinguish each
word-element every one of them is followed by the semicolon. Further
discussion follows regularly after that. I want to note that I have
used the same analysis style as Christopher Gilson did in his
discussion of "_Sí Quente Feanor_".

_Linglorel_: Cf. _lin[?n]_ "air, tune", V:369 LIN-(2); _glor-_,
_lor-_ *"gold" appearing "in names, as _Glorfindel_, ... N
_Galad-loriel_" cf. V:368 LÁWAR-, N GLÁWAR- ; *_-el_ might be the
feminine suffix from primitive form *_elle_ exhibited in
_galata-rîg-elle_ "lady with garland of sunlight" which is the
primitive form of _Galadriel_ (X:182, cf. sidenote below), cf. also
_Gilthoniel_ (R:72-3) or _Nimrodel_ (below).

If it is indeed N. _lhinn_/_lin-(?)_ we would see _glor-_ being
left unmutated, a phenomenon maybe also seen in _Ninglor_ *"golden
water[flower]" (UT:280-1); the initial consonant cluster GL in _glor_ is
apparently unchanged when suffixed to final -N-. However, we have to
consider another possible explanation for medial -NGL-. The
Etymologies provide us with very similiar forms _Inglor_, _Indlour_
and their primitive cognates _Indo-klâr_, _Indo-glaurê_ (ID-, V:361).
Thus, a change of medial -NDL- to -NGL- could also be very likely.
_Linglorel_ might be translated as *"woman of the golden tune".
"DLA" gives a weird translation "song of the golden elf? Q". First, it
is surely not a Q(u)enya form (given medial -NGL-), secondly there is no
hint that any word-element could be simply translated with "elf".

_Inglorel_: Cf. _în_ "year" s. V:400 YEN-, or _inn_, _ind_ "inner
thought, meaning, heart"; _glor-_ and *_-el_ see above.

Under the stem GENG-WÂ- we find "N. _gemb, gem_; cf. _ingem_
`year-sick' " [Author's note: < PE. *_în_ "year" + *_gengwâ_
"sick"] showing that bare -G- is retained after -N-. If that is also
the case here, the translation might be *"woman of the golden year".
On the other hand, under stem ID- we perceive _Inglor_ (in various
drafts an earlier name of Finrod; cf. X:93, 104), apparently a masculine
cognate to _Inglorel_. Suggesting that _Inglorel_ is indeed inspired
by _Inglor_ we could assume that it has to mean *"Woman of the
golden heart". "DLA" translates it with "Not-gold-star/elf? S"; I don't
know how he supposes that *_in_ could here be used for negation.

_Nimladel_: Cf.  _nimp, nim_ "pale, *white" (V:378, NIK-W-) often seen
in compounds as in _Nimdil-dor_ "Q. Taniqetil(de), High White Horn"
(V:378); _lad_ *"plain(?)" probably derived from LAT-, cf. also
_Tumladen_ "plain of Gondolin" (V:368) (Note that the GL gives a form
_lad_ "(1)level, smooth ..." (PE11:52) derived from stem LAHA or LA'A
(PE12:50)); *_-el_ see above.

Translation might be *"woman of the white valley". "DLA"
translates it as "White valley of stars S". It is not unthinkable that
*_-el_ could be derived from EL- (V:355) but I don't think it is here
the case, moreover in respect to Tolkien's translation of _Nimrodel_,
which surely implies that *_-el_ HAS to mean *"lady, woman". See also
discussion of _Nimrodel_ and sidenote on *_elle_.

_Nimlorel_: Cf. _nim, nimp_ above; _lor_ see above; *_-el_ see above.

Another compound consisting generally of components mentioned above.
Translation might be *"woman of the white gold". "DLA" suggests as
a possible translation "White dream of stars Q"; I don't think that we
have here a Q(u)enya word, though the word might be acceptable in
Q(u)enya phonology (the context here shows us clearly that Tolkien
intended to compose a Noldorin word). Moreover, there is no word
**_lor_ in Noldorin and  we rather find _ôl_ (LOS-, V:370) for "dream".

_Nimlothel_: Cf. _nim, nimp_ see above; _loth_ "flower" cf. V:370 LOT(H)
giving a similiar form _Nimloth_; *_-el_ see above.

Translation might be *"woman of the white flower". "DLA" supposes
"Blossom of stars S", leaving out _nim_ "white" and ignoring Tolkien's
translation for _Nimloth_ "white blossom" (_Silmarillion_ Appendix).

_Nimrodel_: Cf. _nim, nimp_ above; _groth, grod_ "cave" cf.
_Silmarillion_ Appendix entry _groth (grod)_; *_-el_ see above.

The _Silmarillion_ Appendix gives for _Nimrodel_ the translation "Lady
of the caves". Since _nim_ means "white" and _grod_ "cave" (here
mutated to weak _rod_) we are left to assume that ending *_-el_ has to
mean *"Lady, woman" as proposed above of _Linglorel_. A more
"accurate" translation of _Nimrodel_ is given in the index to
_Unfinished Tales_: "Lady of the White Grotto".

Sidenote on *_-elle_ :

I assume that *_-elle_ might be derived from stem SEL-D- (V:385). We
are informed that when _selde_, the (apparently) ultimate predecessor
of *_-elle_, is used in a compound there is "a change assisted by the
loss of _s_ in cpds. and patronymics". The example mentioned fits well
with the further statements made: "(_tindômiselde_, Q _Tindómerel_)"
(V:385). Yet, this is debatable since _selde_ means precisely
"daughter", making it hard to see how this can be used to have a
meaning like "Lady" in the exact case of *_-el_ in _Nimrodel_.

Philipp Marquart

Greetings all,

My friend Benjamin Babut and myself would like to present a new website
about Tolkien's languages we just released, entitled :  _Glaemscrafu -
Tolkien's linguistic cellar_.

Its purpose is to allow all kinds of interested people, advanced students as
well as newcomers, to taste and enjoy how Tolkien's invented languages look
and, especially, sound, by means of actual texts, presented, translated and
read aloud with MP3 files to download. A large selection of languages is to be
found: Quenya and Sindarin of course, but also their forerunners, Qenya and
Noldorin, together with lesser studied languages: Telerin, Adûnaic,  Khuzdul,
Black Speech, Valarin. We found it interesting to include too some samples  of
primary world languages that were of significance to Tolkien and influenced
him: Old English, Gothic, Old Norse, Finnish, Welsh and Latin.

In another part of the website, we give very short excerpts of Tolkien's own
records to illustrate how he himself pronounced many of the names that
appear in his works. It should be especially helpful to say them aloud
correctly, and will also give an idea of Tolkien's reading styles.

Finally, there are a few links to similar projects and a bibliography.
Though Glaemscrafu is not intended to be a _thorough_ study of each text, we
systematically list our sources at the end of each page in order to allow
everyone to check. Regarding the pronunciation, we tried to do our best
according to the documentation we gathered - but inevitably  some linguistic
habits of ours will have crept through. (Hence the interest of having several
websites featuring record with people from different linguistic backgrounds)

We wish to thank Petri Tikka, who helped us with the Finnish part of the
website, and Didier Willis for his support and encouragements.

The website is wholly bilingual in French and English. It is hosted as a
specialised wing by the Tolkien-related website JRRVF <http://jrrvf.com>.
Thanks also to its webmaster Cédric Fockeu for his hospitality!

The general URL for _Glaemscrafu_ is: <http://jrrvf.com/glaemscrafu>.

You can reach the English version of the homepage directly at :
<http://www.jrrvf.com/~glaemscrafu/texts/index-a.htm>

If you wish to contact us, please use the e-mail address of the website (at
the bottom of every page). Do not hesitate especially to tell us  about the
various typos that will inevitably remain despite proofreading.

We hope you will enjoy the visit !

Yours,
Bertrand Bellet

"It is told that in that feast of the Spring of Arda Tulkas espoused
_Lëa-vinya_, fairest of the maidens of Yavanna, and Vana robed her in
flowers that came then first to their opening; and she danced before
the Valar..." (Excerpted from "Morgoth's Ring" p. 67, note 18)

In 1958 Tolkien sat down to work on the "Annals of Aman" and there the
names of the _Vali_ were often altered. And indeed, we are informed
in note 18, pointing to the passage on page 53, that the ultimate
predecessor of _Nessa_ is _Lëa-vinya_ "Lëa the young".

_Lëa_: There are two possible stems from which _Lëa_ could be derived:
1) LAYA- (VT45:26), and 2) LÁYAK- (V:368).

Dissyllabic words exhibiting the use of –ea- are somewhat rare in our
corpus of Q(u)enya words. But there exist some specific examples which
could shed light on the matter of how the meaning of _Lëa_ could be
reconstructed. In V:349 we find stem ÁYAR-, AIR- (VT45:6) which gives
the derivates _ear (earen)_ and _aire (airen)_ letting us assume that
primitive *_áya_, *_ai_ becomes in Q(u)enya _ëa_, _ai_.

Another examples show a similiar pattern of derivation:
_leo_ "shade, shadow cast by any object" (V:354) with primitive
_daiô_(VT45:8), *_dayô_ (adding possible primitve development -ay- >
-e-); PE. _Phay-anâro_ "radiant sun" > _Feanáro_ (PHAY-, V:381)*.
Though we have to dismiss DAY- as a possible stem because of the
meaning (DAY- is associated with "darkness, shadow" and _Lëa_ has to
refer to something more joyful, hence the byname "the young") and
the lack of an –a- in the primitive form. In V:368 we find stem
LÁYAK-, giving for example _laiqa_ "green". Yet, this stem is
irritating because we perceive a final –k- which can't be easily
eliminated; but in VT45:26 the stem LAYA- was added in the margin
against LÁYAK- with derivative _laire_ "summer". I think it is very
possible that _Lëa_ has to derive from LAYA- (standing surely in
connexion to LÁYAK-) -- the meaning we'd get wouldn't be that far-
fetched, and it does not contradict the morphology of –aya- stem
types: PE. *_laya_ > _Lëa_ *"the summerlike, the young".

_vinya_: _vinya_ "young" (X:67).

*But note also that later drafts (concerning the etymology of _fëa_)
show that this conception had maybe changed over the years: "Quenya
_fëa_ (dissyllabic) is from older *_phaya_ ..." (X:349).

Philipp Marquart

Hello all!

In his _Early Quenya Grammar_, Tolkien presents the use of the
conjunction _mai_ 'if'. Unfortunately he does not translate one of the
example sentences (EQG:59):

_Mai ni-túlie, tu-tútiel_.

I would translate it in English as : "If I had come, they would have
come". But I am not a native English speaker. Any comment ?

[Sounds right to me. CFH]

I take this opportunity to ask "_mai_" a _Vinyar Tengwar_ or a _Parma_
is scheduled before the end of this year ? ;-)

[Actually, it's not clear to me that _mai_ can be used in the sense of
"whether" (which is proper to your question) as English "if" (now) can.

I can't speak for Chris Gilson, editor or _Parma_, but my intent is
certainly to try to get _VT_ 49 out by the end of the year, if I
can wrap up some other writing commitments in time to do so. CFH]

Namárie,

E. Kloczko

You know, I've felt guilty for the better part of a decade for
my unthinking and unauthorized posting of that snippet on
Usenet- especially since soon therafter the copyright-law war
erupted with the Salo/Star/Fauskanger axis. Fortunately it seems
that it hasn't spread that far, since even Arden appears to have
been unaware of it (although it has turned up in a couple of
online "encyclopedias").

In any event, it's out, and surely there would be no harm if Wayne
Hammond and Christina Scull were to use it, since they carry the
Imprimatur.

I suspect that _asea aranion/athelas_ is one of those Q-S pairs
that aren't literal translations. Now, I'm no linguist; but we
can at least be certain that _asea_ and _athe-_ are equivalent
elements, and, as Frederik points out, that the Quenya assumed
or omitted the leaf-element.   Or, viewed the other way around,
that the leaf-element was added by the Exiles when they formed
their Sindarin equivalent (acc. to the late note, the plant was
known to the medical loremasters of the Noldor- with no
indication whether the Sindar were aware of its properties, or
even if it was native to Middle-earth). The snippet's wording
has _asea_ regularly > _athe-_, "compounded with _-las_," which
to me suggests that the _-las_ element only entered with the
Sindarin conversion. Why would this be? Another note cited by
Wayne and Christina indicates that only the leaves were used,
which may be relevant.  Or perhaps the linguistic loremasters
found "athe" alone to be ugly?

[Tolkien wrote in his note on "Stress" in Section I of Appendix E
that words in which the stress falls on the third syllable from the
end -- e.g. _Denethor, Fëanor_ -- "are favoured in the Eldarin
languages, especially Quenya." It seems natural then that the
medical loremasters of the Noldor, whose native tongue was
Quenya, would expand _athe-_ to the more euphonious (not to
mention distinctive) _athelas_. PHW]

One might speculate whether "aranion" was a pre- or post-
Downfall Numenorean addition ("balm" > "kingsbalm"), since the
specific association of healing with the King appears to have
been theirs, not the Elves'.  This leads to yet another
question- whether Ad/CS _kingsfoil_ followed or in fact underlay
the hypothesised Num. addition of _aranion_ .

-- William Cloud Hicklin

>   I think no-one queries the translation *'of kings'. However,
in the  light of Tolkien's gloss on _athea_ (regularly > _asea_
after the  change of Q. _th_ > _s_ described in 'The Shibboleth
of Feanor'  [XII:331]), I'm not sure that the translation
*'leaf' should be  defended (and I don't think Arden said so,
either). I think that the  note on RC:183 is correct except for
the parenthesis, '(but if so,  _athelas_ = ''leaf-leaf'')',
since the attested etymological connection  between _athe-_ and
_asea_ does not imply that _athe-_ means 'leaf'. In  the note on
RC:580 ll. 2-3 from bottom, perhaps one should substitute
Tolkien's actual gloss ('beneficial') for 'leaf' (or simply omit
the  words 'leaf of kings')?
>
>   /Fredrik

Mellyn!

In Christie's sale November 15 (catalogue named _Valuable Printed
Books and Manuscripts_), lot 152 is an inscribed set of _The Lord of
the Rings_, which has belonged to Leslie Megahey, the producer of the
1968 BBC documentary "Tolkien in Oxford". The lot includes a letter
from Tolkien (20 February 1968), with a leaf on which Tolkien gives
tengwa versions of the caption "Tolkien in Oxford" and a translation
of this, apparently to Quenya. The translation seems to me to read
_arkastar mondósaresse_.

The inscription in the book is a version of the "Elen síla" phrase,
in which the word _lúmenna_ was left out and then added above the
line, an expansive insertion mark showing where it should go.

To inspect the material, search for "Tolkien" on Christie's
website. Clicking on "Lot details" will bring up a larger image and
the full description. Clicking on that image will bring up a third
one, in more or less readable size.

Meneg suilaid,

Beregond

[The URL of Christie's home page is:
http://www.christies.com/home_page/home_page.asp
-- PHW]

Thanks to Anders for passing along notice of this very interesting
letter!

I can add one bit of information not mentioned in the exhibit
catalogue, which is that the accompanying copy of _The Fellowship of
the Ring_, inscribed by Tolkien (in _tengwar_) with "_elen síla
lúmenna omentielvo_" (this was 1968, so the change from inclusive _-
lmo_ to _-lvo_ had been made some years ago), appears to be the very
copy that Tolkien is shown inscribing in the "Tolkin in Oxford"
documentary itself. Although I've never seen that documentary, parts
of it were excerpted for the 1996 documentary (filmed in 1992),
"J.R.R.T.: A Film Portrait of J.R.R. Tolkien", and it includes part
of this scene, showing Tolkien beginning the inscription, reaching
_omentielvo_ and realizing he's left out _lúmenn'_, saying something
like "Oh, I've made a mistake, haven't I?", and then inserting
_lúmenna_ above the line.

Regarding the letter with the two _tengwar_ inscriptions, A "Tolkien
in Oxford" and B "_arcastar mondósaresse_" (<< _arkastar_):

The note Tolkien wrote above the second inscription appears to read:

"in Elvish language [? script]"

The note in green at the bottom of the sheet appears to read:

"[?Shown over] some explanations. A is a transliteration of English,
[?that thus] happens not to be very decorative [?since lacking] the [?
<a-_tehta_> = a]. B is a translation into Elvish (Quenya)"

The final note, in black, reads:

"NB the vowel signs i, e, a, o, u <corresponding _tehta_ above each
vowel> are placed _after_ the consonant which they follow in speech."

I was also going to provide some initial thoughts on the two new Quenya
words, Roman Rausch's message came in as I was writing them, so I'll just
add a few points to his comments.

>_arcastar mondósaresse_

Very interesting! I cannot resist analyzing this right away:

_mondósaresse_ 'in Oxford'

In Letter no.342 Tolkien gives "the elvish word for 'bull'" as _mundo_
(apparently in Quenya), so that one can identify _mondo_ 'ox' here.
An element 'ford, crossing' would be then expected to follow and
indeed _-sar-_ can be related to THAR- 'across, beyond' (V:392), also
_thar-_ 'athwart, across' in the _Silmarillion_ glossary with _Tharbad_
< _thara-pata_ 'crossway'.

[Note also numerous Q. words in _sar-_ having to do with stones or
stoniness, as _sarne_ 'stony place' < SAR- (V:385, VT46:12). CFH]

The long _-ó-_ seems to suggest that one should isolate _#ósar(e)_
'ford', rather than just _#sar(e)_ with the prefix _ó-_ 'used in words
describing the meeting, junction, or union of two things or persons,
or of two groups thought of as units' (XI:367); and _-s-_ < _th_ would
naturally resist rhotacism here.

The ending _-sse_ is of course locative, while the vowel _-e-_ before
it may belong to the preceding word (#_ósare-sse_) or just link the
ending to it (#_ósar-e-sse_).

_arcastar_ 'Tolkien'

Tolkien's name is an anglicization of _Tollkiehn_ , German _tollkühn_
'foolhardy, reckless, desperately brave' (compare Letter no.165),
containing _toll_ 'insane, mad, wild' and _kühn_ 'brave'. A more or
less literal translation into English Tolkien himself also made, was
'Rashbold' (IX:151).

I would analyze the Quenya word as _*arca-star_.

The initial element _arca-_ looks similar to Q _arauka_ 'swift,
rushing' (PE12:34) from RAVA or RAWA (PE12:79) with many derivatives
for chase, running, hunting, fierceness; also _rauka_ = _arauka_ 'swift'.
But of course a diphthong cannot be syncopated, so that one has to
assume a different derivation from a changed or parallel root, e.g. <
_*araka_ < (A)RAK- (?); cf. Q _narka_ 'to rend' from NÁRAK- 'tear, rend
(tr. and intr.)' (V:374, VT45:37).

The latter element _-star_ seems to be related to STAR- 'stiff'
(V:388), with _st_ preserved medially. Although this stem yields words
for grass only — Q _sara_ 'stiff, dry grass, bent', N _thâr_ 'stiff
grass' and so on — there is a different root TÁRAG- 'tough, stiff'
producing Q _tarya_ 'tough, stiff' and N. _tarias_ 'stiffness, toughness,
difficulty', _tarlanc_'stiff-necked, obstinate' with reference to more
abstract meanings. Hence, _arcastar_ would be something like
*'rushing [and] stiff-necked'.

[I like your analysis, though I think _-star_ as 'stiff' (without any
reference to necks) is a fine rendering of the sense of 'hardy' in
'foolhardy', both as physically 'hard, tough' and as metaphorically
'unyielding, resolute'. CFH]

Roman Rausch

On Oct 27, 2006, at 11:06 AM, Carl F. Hostetter wrote:

> The final note, in black, reads:
>
> "NB the vowel signs i, e, a, o, u <corresponding _tehta_ above each
> vowel> are placed _after_ the consonant which they follow in speech."

That should read "placed _above_ the consonant", of course; sorry for
the typo.

Carl

--- In lambengolmor@yahoogroups.com, "Roman Rausch" <aranwe@...> wrote,
regarding _arcastar_ 'Tolkien':

> The latter element _-star_ seems to be related to STAR- 'stiff'
> (V:388), with _st_ preserved medially.

What about connecting _-(a)sta-r_ with Tulkas's title: _Astaldo_
'The Valiant'?

In my humble opinion the second element in the name _Mondósar(e)_
'Oxford' is derived from the stem SAR-. Look at the tengwa _silmë_
(and not _thúlë_). It can have the meaning 'hard' (as in the OED
definition of HARD (n.): 'Hard or firm ground').

Cheers,

Richard Derdzinski

Roman Rausch wrote:

>In Letter no.342 Tolkien gives "the elvish word for 'bull'" as
_mundo_ (apparently in Quenya), so that one can identify
_mondo_ 'ox' here.

_Mundo_ can hardly be anything but Quenya. Its CE etymon could
be *_mundô_ or better *_mundu_ with a short "male" _-u_ element.
Still the stem is not stated in the published corpus : could be
?MUD- or ?MUN-.

[Etym. gives MBUD- 'project', > *_mbundu_ > Q. _mundo_ 'snout,
nose, cape'; perhaps _mundo_ 'bull' is a later conception of this
root and its derivatives. Note that Etym. _mundo_ has 'cape' as
one of its meanings -- a much later word for 'cape (of land)' is
Q. _nortil_ (VT47:28), in which the final element is < TIL 'point',
whence also Q. _tilde_ 'spike, horn' and _Tilion_ 'the Horned'
(Etym. s.v. TIL-). So perhaps Tolkien later imagined MBUD-
'project' > Q. _mundo_ 'animal with (projecting) horns, a bull'?
It should also be noted that GL has _mû_ 'ox', _mûs_ 'cow' etc.,
clearly cognate with Gn. _mul-, mum_ 'low, bellow'; if a root
*MU- 'low, bellow' survived, then perhaps later Q. _mundo_ is
related, maybe *'bellower' with agentive ending _-ndo_ as in
_colindo_ 'bearer' (LR:953), _runando_ 'redeemer' (VT44:17),
etc. -- PHW]

The change of internal u > o to show sex (or rather the lack of it)
bull > ox, is quite unexplained, or is it ?

[I would think that despite the similarity, *_mondo_ 'ox' must be
etymologically distinct from _mundo_ 'bull', though undoubtedly
the form of one suggested the other. The Etymologies gives the
base MÔ- with derivatives Q. _mól_ 'slave, thrall' and _móta-_
'labour, toil', so perhaps *_mondo_ 'ox' is from MÔ- + agentive
_-ndo_, with the sense 'laborer, draught-animal'? -- PHW]

The long _-ó-_ could come from o+a ; cf. Finwe's name _Ñoldóran_
'King of the Ñoldor' < _Ñoldo_ + _aran_ (XII:343).
Then _mondósaresse_ would be *_mondo-asaresse_ with Q.
*_asare_ "ford". But that does not satisfy me either. In Noldorin we
have a second element in _athrad_ < _ath-rad_ "ford". The element
_-rad_ < RAT- 'walk' is missing in Q *_asare_ (< ? *_athare_).
Furthermore in Etym. it is stated that "N prefix _ath-_ on both sides,
across, is probably related" which seems to imply that that "ath-"
was not present in Q. and there is NO word for "ford" Etym.

And making it _ó-atha-r(e)_, is not very logical either. _Ath-_ is
a prefix and two prefixes are not added to make a word in our
corpus of Q. We need a meaningful "stem" here. And how to
account for the ending -r(e) then anyway ?

More questions than answers, as usual... ;-)

Namárië,

Edouard Kloczko

Sindacollo is according to Christopher Tolkien one of the names
of Elu-thingol in Quenya in his "Silmarillion" (1977).
But in HOME the name is always spelled _Sindicollo_; see HOME XII
- Index.

The "normal" form of the Q. adjective according to "Quendi and
Eldar" (XI:384) is _sinde/thinde_, not _sinda_, which is a
personalised form of that adj. (cf. "Sindar : the name (…) was
derived from (…) _sinde_" ibidem), being the name given to certain
Elves, even through _sinda_ is used as an adj. in the Namárie
elegy, cf. "sinda-noriello".

So _Sindacollo_ is not grammatically wrong in Q. as far as we can
see. ;-)

With the name Q. _Melyanna_, this _Sindacollo_ is the last piece of
information in the Appendix of "The Silmarillion" (1977) that we cannot
pinpoint to a precise source in one of JRR Tolkien's linguistic writings.

Any chance of seeing this piece untangled in a future Vinyar
Tengwar?

[I will keep an eye out for an attestation of either of these forms in
the mss., and will note it here if I succeed in finding them. -- PHW]

Namárië,

E. Kloczko

Just a minor correction:

For me the first word of the Elvish greeting (inscribed by Tolkien in
the copy of _The Fellowship of the Ring_ being auctioned) reads neither
"_elen_" nor "_elem_", as stated on the DTS site, but in fact "_elme_",
but I will leave it to the Quenya experts to judge if this may have been
Tolkien's intention or just a double mistake.

Regards,
Florian Dombach

[You are quite correct that the first word is actually written as
"_elme_". I have no doubt that this was a mistake on Tolkien's
part, not intentional. As I mentioned previously, Tolkien was
making this inscription for the cameras, and not at his leisure,
accounting for the missed and subsequently inserted "_lúmenna_"
and, no doubt, this misspelling as well. CFH]

--- In lambengolmor@yahoogroups.com, "Richard Derdzinski"
<galadhorn@...> wrote:

>What about connecting _-(a)sta-r_ with Tulkas's title: _Astaldo_
>'The Valiant'?

I believe that _Astaldo_ should be rather related to STÁLAG- with
primitive _stalga_ 'stalwart, steady, firm', N _thalion_ 'hero,
dauntless man' (V:388) and so on. Thus: _*a-stal-do_ with _-do_ as
e.g. in _Hildor_ 'followers' from KHILI 'follow' (XI:387).

(Analyzing the name as _*a-sta-ldo_ one runs into several problems - a
root *(A)SAT(A)- 'valiant' is needed, but not attested; just as the
personal ending _-ldo_, if I do not overlook anything.)

>In my humble opinion the second element in the name _Mondósar(e)_
>'Oxford' is derived from the stem SAR-. Look at the tengwa _silmë_
>(and not _thúlë_). It can have the meaning 'hard' (as in the OED
>definition of HARD (n.): 'Hard or firm ground').

In the "_Namárie_" calligraphy in _The Road Goes Ever On_ we encounter
_sindanóriello_ and _hísie_, both written with a _silme_, although
deriving from THIN- (V:392) and KHITH- 'mist, fog' (V:364).

And if *_Mondósar(e)_ contains SAR-, then what about rhotacism? We
know a rule that it did not occur if _s_ was followed by the stressed
vowel (VT44:20), which is the case in _Mondósaresse_, but not in the
deduced basic form *_Mondósar(e)_.

In its declination stress would sometimes lie before and sometimes
after _-s-_.

The change _-sar-_ > _-rar-_ does not seem euphonious here and it may
have been the (external) reason to avoid SAR-.

Besides, the connection beween _sar-_ *'hard ground' and 'ford'
appears somewhat vague to me, while THAR- is directly attested in
another name of a ford.

[The connection with SAR-, if there is one, would I think be to the
various derivatives connoting or related to stones or stoniness, fords
often being made of gravel or other agglomerated stones. Note
S. _Sarn-athrad_ 'Stony-ford' (LR:172, RC:163). CFH]

Roman Rausch

EQG:74 the accustaive plural of _lama_ is given as LAMIN
instead of LAMNIN; cf. EQG:44.

[This should indeed read LAMNIN, not **LAMIN. Thanks for
catching this! CFH]

EQG:75 VALINÔR (printed with a macron). Should this be
VALINO(R (with a short mark onver the o)?

[No, the macron is in the original and correct as published. CFH]

Namárië,

E. Kloczko

Carl F. Hostetter wrote:

> The note in green at the bottom of the sheet appears to read:
>
> "[?Shown over] some explanations. A is a transliteration of English,
> [?that thus] happens not to be very decorative [?since lacking] the [?
> <a-_tehta_> = a]. B is a translation into Elvish (Quenya)"

     I read the first line and a half in this way:

"Here {or "Above"?} are some specimens. A is a transliteration
of English. But this happens "

[Aha! I think you've go it. CFH]

     With some luck, the reproduction in the printed catalogue is
large enough to allow a more certain reading.

	 Suilad,

		 Beregond

It has long appeared to me that as printed in _The
Peoples of Middle-earth_ (XII:295-320), the essay 'Of
Dwarves and Men' is strangely circular in disposition.
Christopher Tolkien notes that it 'takes up in the
middle of a sentence in a passage discussing knowledge
of the Common Speech' -- more specifically, discussing
the Common Speech as a means for interspecial
communication -- and the text ends (without a full
stop) in the middle of a discussion of the Common
Speech; more specifically, with a sentence on the
Common Speech as a means for interspecial
communication.

Furthermore, Christopher Tolkien points to a break in
the essay where, after three and a half pages of
manuscript, the typescript draft begins (XII:320 n.
9). Naturally one wonders whether the manuscript pages
were, in fact, originally the last pages of a draft
version of the essay, moved to the beginning at some
later time. (There could be a simple explanation to
why this was done. Having coverered the topics of the
Atani and their languages, the Drúedain, the
Halflings, Faramir's 'Middle Men', and the lingua
franca, Tolkien may have found himself returning to
the Dwarves: 'the Dwarves however were a special
case'. If this was so, then he may have decided that
the sections on the Dwarves were better kept together
and so moved the last pages. This would also explain
why no subtitle 'I' appears [cf. XII:324 n. 34], if
the essay having been so arranged never was retyped.)

However, when queried about the original documents
Christopher Tolkien kindly responded that the first
typescript words (XII:298 line 2, 'Only occasionally
...') follow in the same line of text, so to speak, as
the last manuscript words 'in the Fëanorian Script' in
such a way as to show very clearly that the author
simply laid down his pen at that point and turned to
his typewriter.

Nevertheless, I wonder whether more could be said on
the matter. If the three and a half manuscript pages
-- except, perhaps, for the last (few) sentence(s)? --
originally comprised the end of the text, then the
essay would have opened with a discussion of the use
of runes in the Book of Mazarbul and on Balin's Tomb
-- and this would agree with Tolkien's note on the
covering page that the essay arose 'from consideration
of the Book of Mazarbul' (XII:295).

In my opinion the typescript part on Dwarven runes
(XII:298-301), where several phrases were later struck
out and corrected, definitely has the appearance of a
rough draft, while the section that follows
('Relations of the Longbeard Dwarves and Men') seems
more finished. One deleted note from the first part
was taken up almost verbatim in the latter (see
XII:300 n. 21 and cf. the last paragraph on XII:302).
Perhaps the essay was pieced together of several
separate texts, some of them rewritten from (partly)
lost drafts, all written more or less at the same
time?

There is another curious fact about the essay as
printed. After the section on the relations of the
Longbeards and Men, ending with a paragraph on what
came to pass in the Second Age (XII:304-5), there
follows a paragraph on change in the language of the
Eldar in Middle-earth (as opposed to that of the Eldar
in Valinor), as seen by Elvish loremasters. This
paragraph seems to have virtually nothing to do with
what precedes it, and it is followed by a clear break
(where later the subtitle 'The Atani and their
Languages' was pencilled in). Could it be that the
part on the Atani and their languages was once
preceded by a text on the Elves and their languages,
i.e. on Quenya and Sindarin, and that the stray
paragraph is a remnant of this text? In any case I
think it possible that Tolkien bundled together a text
that he had written on the Atani with one or more
texts on the Longbeard Dwarves to form an essay 'Of
Dwarves and Men', but perhaps we will never know
exactly which the constituent parts originally were.

I note with interest though that the upcoming _J.R.R.
Tolkien Companion and Guide_ by Hammond & Scull
contains a section entitled 'Of Dwarves and Men'
(http://bcn.net/~whammond/Guide topic list.doc).
Perhaps we will find some answers there?

/Fredrik Ström

At 06:01 AM 10/28/06, Edouard Kloczko wrote:

>The long _-ó-_ could come from o+a ; cf. Finwe's name _Ñoldóran_
>'King of the Ñoldor' < _Ñoldo_ + _aran_ (XII:343).
>Then _mondósaresse_ would be *_mondo-asaresse_ with Q.
>*_asare_ "ford". But that does not satisfy me either. In Noldorin we
>have a second element in _athrad_ < _ath-rad_ "ford". The element
>_-rad_ < RAT- 'walk' is missing in Q *_asare_ (< ? *_athare_).
>Furthermore in Etym. it is stated that "N prefix _ath-_ on both sides,
>across, is probably related" which seems to imply that that "ath-"
>was not present in Q. and there is NO word for "ford" Etym.

*_asare-_ could be from THAR- with prefixed root vowel as in _anar_,
_isil_, _Aman_. In the absence of a case ending one would expect the name
to appear as *_Mondósar_.

Jerome Colburn
jcolburn@...
blog: http://www.uniquesupport.net/Lists/Jerome%20Colburn/View%20Items.htm

_I ner eldalluva_ EQG:47 and 79 is translated "The man from the
Elves". This translation is not clear for me. Does it mean "That
Elvish Man", e.g. the usual way of saying (or ? a formal way) "A
male Elf", because the adj. _Eldarin_ could not be applied to
persons ? Any thought ?

Namárië,

Edouard Kloczko

[The only real clue we have is that _-lluva_ is the adjectival
form of the ablative suffix _-llo_ 'from, out of', as in _kiryallo_
'from on board', _kallo_ 'from the top (of)', etc. We can only
assume that _eldalluva_ would be used in those contexts in
which the literal meaning 'from the Elves, out of the Elves' would
make sense or be applicable -- for example, _i ner eldalluva_
might appropriately refer to an emissary sent by the Elves in
the context of a meeting ("The man from the Elves raised several
objections before the council"). -- PHW]

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Jerome Colburn wrote :

> *_asare-_ could be from THAR- with prefixed root vowel as in _anar_,
> _isil_, _Aman_. In the absence of a case ending one would expect the name
> to appear as *_Mondósar_.

It could, but then it would be strange, all the same. Noldorin/Sindarin _athrad_
"ford" is not from that root. In "The Silmarillion Index" C. Tolkien  wrote :
"thar- 'athwart, across' in Sarn Athrad, Thargelion; also in Tharbad (from
thara-pata 'crossway')." But according to Ety. _athrad_ "ford, crossing" is not
from the root THAR-. It comes from "ath-rad".

So the problem, as I see it, comes from the final -r in Q. *asare-/*ósare-
"ford".

[This is only a problem if one assumes that the etymology of _athrad_
as given in the Etymologies -- N. _ath-_ 'on both sides, across' + _râd_
'path, track' -- MUST have been retained unchanged thereafter. But we
know that Tolkien constantly changed the underlying etymologies of
many words, even while retaining the "final" form (in terms of the imagined
history) of the word itself. The "Quenta" of 1930 has the early Noldorin
name _Sarn-Athra_ 'the Ford of Stones' (IV:133), in which _athra_ 'ford'
obviously does NOT end in _râd_ 'path'; this was emended to _Sarn-Athrad_
(IV:135, n. 8), but this might just as easily represent the addition of the
gerundial ending _-ad_. Even more pertinent to Jerome's proposed *_asare-_
is S. _athrabeth_ 'debate, converse' (X:303) -- as Carl and I noted in VT 35
(pg. 14), this appears to be lit. 'across-word', comparable to Eng. _dialogue_
from Grk. _diálogos_, = _dia_ 'through, across' + _logos_ 'word'. And both
N. _athra_ 'ford' and S. _athra-_ 'across' seem most easily explained as
deriving from THAR- via prefixion and suppression of the sundóma:
*_a-th'r-a. -- PHW]

As a side dish. ;-)

Yes, the root THAR- "across, beyond" appears in Thar-gelion and Thar-bad,
translated "crossway" in Ety. But we are still missing a link here. From what
source the CE etymon *thara-pata comes from. Do we know ? I was unable to find
it.

In LOTR-RC:15 Tharbad means in S. 'road-crossing', according to the Unfinished
Index, still no etymon given.

In "Quendi and Eldar" : "S aphad- ‘follow’ < *ap-pata ‘walk behind, on a track
or path’."

The best candidate would be root bat- "tread" from Ety. (the root pat- and kwat-
in Ety. are quite inappropriate here, aren't' they ?). The language of *ap-pata
is not stated but could be Common Telerin, not CE, and showing an assimilation
of b to p. The CE verb *bat- would be a simple formation from the root bat- and
(?)maybe used in composition only in CT.

[Again, the bases and etymologies in the Etym. are neither exhaustive nor
immutable. The root PATA appears in QL with the derivative _pata-_ 'rap, tap
(of feet), while GL gives the clearly cognate verb _padra-_ 'walk'. The Noldorin
cognate _pad-_ appears in _Padathir_ 'Trotter (VI:194). On this basis there
seems little reason to doubt that *_ap-pata_ displays PQ or CE *_pata-_
'walk', and that this is the second element in _Tharbad_. -- PHW]

Namárië,

Edouard Kloczko

My passion for Tolkien languages (especially Q(u)enya) has brought
me to the land of the "external-evolution" lovers; even if when I
started (6 years ago) to study Quenya my aim was to "compose", after
3 years I've changed my mind, prefering the scholary aspect.

Especially I've found that the '25-'31 texts haven't had an entire
reanalysis since the early '90s, even if the "enormous" corpus of
Qenya published in the last 10 years could lead to a better analysis.

Some days ago I decided to start this "big" work, not only a
complete and anlaysis of the "artic sentence", OM1, OM2, "_Nieninque_"
and "_Earendel_"; but also a reconstruction of the grammatical structure
in this period of the evolution of Qenya, making comparison with the
"Bodleian Declension", referenced BD (which is so close to the texts,
that it's possible to think it more or less contemporary, at least 4
years before the 1936) and the EQG (very important source), and with
QL EQD and Etym. I hope to have it finished before the _Omentielva
Tatya_, in order to send it.

So far I've completed only the analysis of "_Earendel_" (MC:216),
however comparison with the other texts have been made. I write here
only the most relevant features (without long analysis where
not "surprising"), a better (also for the english :-) ) and longer
analysis will be provided in the final article. I would like to know
your views, comments,sugestions and critics, as most of you are far
more expert than me!

Even if they are only working notes, the ensemble is quite long, so
for the sake of this list (and for our eyes) I've put it in html
here: <http://it.geocities.com/elistir/lambi/earendel.htm>

So... what do you think?

Ugo Truffelli

At 09:10 AM 10/27/06, Roman Rausch wrote:

>_arcastar_ 'Tolkien'
>
>Tolkien's name is an anglicization of _Tollkiehn_ , German _tollkühn_
>'foolhardy, reckless, desperately brave' (compare Letter no.165),
>containing _toll_ 'insane, mad, wild' and _kühn_ 'brave'. A more or
>less literal translation into English Tolkien himself also made, was
>'Rashbold' (IX:151).
>
>I would analyze the Quenya word as _*arca-star_.

The wild thought has occurred to me to read it as *_ar-cas+ta-r_: an agent
noun in _-r_ to a verb *_casta-_ (in turn formed by adding causative _-ta_
to the root KAS- "head") with modifying prefix _ar-_.

[Wild it may be, but I had a similar thought. Consider the term "headstrong",
partly synonymous with "foolhardy", though milder. CFH]

In _Telcontar_ we have an instance of a surname formed by the _-r_ suffix
added to a verb stem formed with the _-ta_ suffix added to a root meaning a
body part!

The meaning would seem to be someone who puts his head outside or beside
(the place where it should be), exposing it to risk.

The question of the meaning of the name _Castamir_ also arises.

Jerome Colburn
jcolburn@...
blog: http://www.uniquesupport.net/Lists/Jerome%20Colburn/View%20Items.htm

Quoting Roman Rausch <aranwe@...>:

> And if *_Mondósar(e)_ contains SAR-, then what about rhotacism? We
> know a rule that it did not occur if _s_ was followed by the stressed
> vowel (VT44:20), which is the case in _Mondósaresse_, but not in the
> deduced basic form *_Mondósar(e)_.
>
> In its declination stress would sometimes lie before and sometimes
> after _-s-_.
>
> The change _-sar-_ > _-rar-_ does not seem euphonious here and it may
> have been the (external) reason to avoid SAR-.

In Note 24 to Quendi and Eldar, we learn that "[m]edial z < s had became r in
the Ñoldorin dialect of Q except when an adjacent syllable, or (as here) the
same syllable, already contained an r", the context being why Dwarvish _Khazâd_
was adapted to Quenya as _Kasar_ rather than **_Karar_. Thus from a phonological
point of view, there need not be any objection to assuming the presence of SAR.

                                               Andreas

Since I don't own the QL, I was hoping somebody who does (or the
eds) could tell me: in the Parma Eldalamberon edition, are the entries
from the "earliest layer" (pres. 1915) indicated or marked in any way?

-- William Cloud Hicklin

[The short answer is "No, not systematically". Beyond Christopher
Tolkien's general observation that "A good proportion of the entries
in the first half of the alphabet were made at one time, when the work
was first begun", and that "many entries (virtually all of those in the
second part of the alphabet) are later than this first layer" (I:246), it
is difficult to definitively state whether any particular entry is "original"
versus "later". As CJRT himself notes, "nothing more definite can be said
than that all entries belong to the period of (or not long preceding) the
_Lost Tales_" (ibid.).

However, in the Foreward to the Qenya Phonology and Lexicon, the
editors do include a detailed chronological comparison of forms in the
Lexicon with those in the Lost Tales, the Phonology, and The Poetic
and Mythologic Words of Eldarissa; and the editorial notes following
each entry in the Lexicon proper note, when possible, later additions
and emendations. -- PHW]

> [The short answer is "No, not systematically". ...
> However, in the Foreward to the Qenya Phonology and Lexicon, the
> editors do include a detailed chronological comparison of forms in the
> Lexicon with those in the Lost Tales, the Phonology, and The Poetic
> and Mythologic Words of Eldarissa;

Right.  Then can a reasonably firm date be assigned to "The Poetic
and Mythologic Words of Eldarissa," and can it serve as a
"snapshot" in time?

[Quoting from PE12:xx-xxi: "These name lists [to the "Story of Tuor" and
_The Fall of Gondolin_] show indirectly that PME itself must date from after
the composition of _The Fall of Gondolin_ in 1916-17 but before the
_Tuor B_ version, probably no later than 1918, and certainly before the
emendations Tolkien made for his reading of the story in the spring of
1920." CFH]

I'm enquiring because I've become interested in what scraps might
be excavated from the very earliest layer: the pre-Somme period
of the early poems, even before Gnomish and the _Lost Tales_.

[You'll want to be sure to have a look at John Garth's book,
_Tolkien and the Great War_, who examines just such issues. CFH]

[-- William Hicklin

Gentle reminder to all list members: please sign all of your posts
with your (real) name. CFH]

> I'm enquiring because I've become interested in what scraps
> might be excavated from the very earliest layer: the pre-
> Somme period of the early poems, even before Gnomish
> and the _Lost Tales_.
>
> [You'll want to be sure to have a look at John Garth's book,
> _Tolkien and the Great War_, who examines just such issues.
> CFH]

It was Garth's book that got me started- he makes some (to me)
startling assertions, yet he gives no sources beyond PE, VT, and
HME.  So how does one (did he) sift out those bits which predate
the Somme?  (my temporary hypothesis is that JRRT's service in
the trenches represents a watershed: the Lost Tales and Gnomish
on this side and the proto-mythology on the other. Indeed, it
might be reasonable to deduce that he left the QL in England, or
it would have been lost with the rest of his kit).

[You will, unfortunately, find this sifting difficult without a copy
of Parma XII (with QL) to hand. The Foreword presents much of
the linguistic detective work involved in dating the QL entries
in relation to the Lost Tales and events in Tolkien's life. PHW]

I can throw up one suggestion bearing on a slighly later matter-
"The Cottage of Lost Play" originally gave Lindo's father as
_Manwë_, later emended to _Valwë_.  CRT comments "possibl[y]...a
mere slip."  But I note that in one of the few bits of the pencil
text of Tuor A which can be read, we find "bluer than the
sapphires of Súlimo," where the later text has "bluer than the
sapphires of the raiment of Manwë." Taken together with the fact
that -wë is typically associated with elf-names (Finwë, Inwë,
Voronwë, Linwë > Tinwë), could it not be that _Manwë_ in Mar
Vanwa was not a slip at all: that it was't yet the Elder King's
name?

-- William Cloud Hicklin

William Cloud Hicklin wrote, regarding "the very earliest layer" of Qenya:

> It was Garth's book that got me started- he makes some (to me)
> startling assertions, yet he gives no sources beyond PE, VT, and
> HME.  So how does one (did he) sift out those bits which predate
> the Somme?

The process was lengthy (involving all the spare hours of about two weeks).
Among other things, I rearranged QL in the order it appears in Tolkien's
original, rather than alphabetically as published in _Parma Eldalamberon_.
For lack of time right now, I can add nothing by way of elucidation except
to repeat is what I said in the endnotes to _Tolkien and the Great War_ (pp
335-6) regarding my description of the state of the mythology circa March
1915 (pp. 125-8): "this reconstruction is based primarily on the Qenya
lexicon, along with the available poetry of 1915, and notes on Eärendel's
Atlantic wanderings and 'The Shores of Faëry' (LT2,  261­2; internal
evidence suggests other outlines in LT2,  253ff., were written later). JRRT
is unlikely to have risked taking the lexicon on active service, and its
state circa March 1916 may be broadly surmised by excluding all entries
lacking in 'The Poetic and Mythologic Words of Eldarissa', a list copied
from it probably soon after he returned to England (Parma Eldalamberon 12,
xvii­xxi). Some details appearing only in that list are assumed to postdate
the initial lexicon phase, and omitted here. The reconstruction takes no
account of unpublished poems, notes or outlines, and covers a period
(beginning in early 1915) in which conceptions were probably very fluid.

> (my temporary hypothesis is that JRRT's service in
> the trenches represents a watershed: the Lost Tales and Gnomish
> on this side and the proto-mythology on the other. Indeed, it
> might be reasonable to deduce that he left the QL in England, or
> it would have been lost with the rest of his kit).

Regarding the "Poetic and Mythologic Words of Eldarissa", I also note (pp.
352-3): "If JRRT left his Qenya lexicon at home when he went to France (as
seems likely in view of Smith losing 'The Burial of Sophocles'), perhaps
this new word list was written in hospital in Birmingham so he could
refamiliarize himself with Qenya. It adds little to the content of the
lexicon (upon which he continued to work), and makes no attempt at
alphabetical order."

> I can throw up one suggestion bearing on a slighly later matter-
> "The Cottage of Lost Play" originally gave Lindo's father as
> _Manwë_, later emended to _Valwë_.  CRT comments "possibl[y]...a
> mere slip."  But I note that in one of the few bits of the pencil
> text of Tuor A which can be read, we find "bluer than the
> sapphires of Súlimo," where the later text has "bluer than the
> sapphires of the raiment of Manwë." Taken together with the fact
> that -wë is typically associated with elf-names (Finwë, Inwë,
> Voronwë, Linwë > Tinwë), could it not be that _Manwë_ in Mar
> Vanwa was not a slip at all: that it was't yet the Elder King's
> name?

I am inclined to agree, and this is just one of the pieces of evidence that
I sifted for my book. See my notes on "The Cottage of Lost Play" on pp. 355
and on "The Music of the Ainur" on pp. 361-2.

John Garth

--- In lambengolmor@yahoogroups.com, "Roman Rausch" <aranwe@...> wrote:
>
> And if *_Mondósar(e)_ contains SAR-, then what about rhotacism? We
> know a rule that it did not occur if _s_ was followed by the stressed
> vowel (VT44:20), which is the case in _Mondósaresse_, but not in the
> deduced basic form *_Mondósar(e)_.

Hm. I thought the stress in _Mondósaresse_ would lie on the _e_
preceding the double consonant _ss_ (according to the pronunciation
rules as for example given in the Appendices of _LotR_, although the
example given there involves double _n_)?

Or is the passage in VT44:20 to be interpreted to say that rhotacism
did not occur when _s_ was followed by a stressed vowel, _regardless in
which syllable_ (as long as it comes after the _s_)? From the example
given, though, I get the impression that it has to follow the _s_
_immediately_ for the rule (of no change from _s_ to _r_) to apply:
_ósAnwe_.

[That's my impression as well. CFH]

David