Search the web
Sign In
New User? Sign Up
linux · This is a mailing list for Linux
? Already a member? Sign in to Yahoo!

Yahoo! Groups Tips

Did you know...
Hear how Yahoo! Groups has changed the lives of others. Take me there.

Best of Y! Groups

   Check them out and nominate your group.
Having problems with message search? Fill out this form to ensure your group is one of the first to be migrated to the new message search system.

Messages

  Messages Help
Advanced
Ubuntu vs M$?   Topic List   < Prev Topic  |  Next Topic >
Summarize Messages Sort by Date  
#54917 From: "Jye Nigma" <jyesluv@...>
Date: Mon Jan 12, 2009 3:25 am
Subject: Ubuntu vs M$?
kingjye
Offline Offline
Send Email Send Email
 
#54918 From: Scott <scottro@...>
Date: Mon Jan 12, 2009 3:49 am
Subject: Re: Ubuntu vs M$?
catbit_1999
Offline Offline
Send Email Send Email
 
On Sun, Jan 11, 2009 at 10:25:49PM -0500, Jye Nigma wrote:
>
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/11/business/11ubuntu.html?pagewanted=1&_r=1&ref=t\
echnology

>

Yes, that was a pretty good article. One problem is that they glossed
over, in a sentence, the fact of how updates can wreck video or sound.

The trouble is that if MS or Mac does that, the user is usually more or
less resigned to it. If Ubuntu does it, and they do it too often at
this point, the user goes back to Windows or Mac.

Fedora is more or less broken by design, considering itself a testing
distro--the trouble is, that they ignore the many users who test it for
them and tell them what's wrong.

Ubuntu is a bit more responsive, but some of their decisions border on
moronic.

I saw an interesting example the other day. Researching why my computer
clock kept getting set back to UTC, (which, AFAIK, doesn't use daylight
savings time) it turned out to be a Ubuntu install. Researching a bit
further (eventually I found that one edits /etc/default/rcS) I saw a
developer saying, "It's the only sane way to do it, and we're not going
to change it."

I had to laugh. Errm, in the US, which probably has at least 100
computers, they do, for better or worse, Daylight Savings Time. There's
probably at least 50 servers in the US. (Yes, I'm being a bit sarcastic
about the numbers.) For them, it's not the sane way to do it.
(Granted, most servers will have a time server, but regardless). It
struck me as a rather poorly thought out statement, and the type of
attitude that will help ensure that 2009 is not the year of the Linux
desktop.

I'm assuming that when I installed that particular Ubuntu setup, I
simply overlooked an option to tell it that the system doesn't use UTC.
Fedora has it, and it's easy to skip if you're in a hurry. (I'm not
going to bother going through an Ubuntu install to see if that's the
case, but I'd be surprised if they didn't offer the option.)

My point here isn't that its default is UTC, it was the developer's
attitude that it's the only sane way to do it.

Ubuntu, especially, since it aims to be a Linux for human beings, as
they say, has to consider some of their updates. I have to laugh that
they put in the still horribly buggy pulse audio, but feel OpenOffice 3
is too new. OO 3 works, pulse audio often doesn't. Again, easy enough
to fix, but not for my mom.

That all being said, last month, my wife had to take a trip and took my
Aspire One laptop. I set it up for her with Ubuntu and she had almost
no problems using it. Afterwards, she said, It's almost the same as the
Mac or Windows.

Of course, I'd made sure to set it up for her, but it was pretty
straightforward. The only real customization I did was ensure that her
favorite freecell version was on there and that Japanese input was set
up properly. (She said I didn't have to bother with Japanese input, but
after being married many years, I know that what she says isn't
necessarily what she means--sure enough, she called me in three days to
say, "Can I do Japanese on this?" Had I not set it up, we would have
wound up in a fight, I'm sure. :)

As it was, I said, Yup, hit control + space. See that little thing on
the lower right?


Anyway, pardon the long winded digression, it is a good article and
worth reading. The fact that it's the business section of the New York
Times is also a good thing.


--
Scott Robbins
PGP keyID EB3467D6
( 1B48 077D 66F6 9DB0 FDC2 A409 FA54 EB34 67D6 )
gpg --keyserver pgp.mit.edu --recv-keys EB3467D6


Colonel: Every inch of this installation is under constant, 24-hour
surveillance.
Willow: Including the secret lab?
Colonel: Everything! (pause) What secret lab?



#54920 From: "Thad Floryan" <thad@...>
Date: Mon Jan 12, 2009 8:56 am
Subject: Re: Ubuntu vs M$?
thad_floryan
Offline Offline
Send Email Send Email
 
--- In linux@yahoogroups.com, Scott <scottro@...> wrote:
>
> On Sun, Jan 11, 2009 at 10:25:49PM -0500, Jye Nigma wrote:
> >
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/11/business/11ubuntu.html?pagewanted=1&_r=1&ref=t\
echnology

> >
> [...]
> Ubuntu is a bit more responsive, but some of their decisions border
> on moronic.

I wouldn't be so harsh as to call some of their "decisions" moronic
but I would say some are not well thought-out -- they seem to overlook
the concerns, needs and wants of their user base.

> I saw an interesting example the other day. Researching why my
> computer clock kept getting set back to UTC, (which, AFAIK, doesn't
> use daylight savings time) it turned out to be a Ubuntu install.
> Researching a bit further (eventually I found that one edits
> /etc/default/rcS) I saw a developer saying, "It's the only sane way
> to do it, and we're not going to change it."

Now THAT decision is moronic. :-)

As an astronomy buff for nearly 60 years, I use UTC in my programs
because that's what is used as a time base for astronomical calcs.
But I do not use, or want, UTC for anything else, especially the
clock on a system that multi-boots.

The Ubuntu team has made some other recent questionable assertions and
assumptions. I now have to manually update /boot/grub/menu.lst because
it's no longer done automatically for kernel updates in 8.04LTS.

And the wireless fiasco with the recent 8.10 release is legion.

And the absurd 6-month release cycle with its incompatibilities just
boggles my mind. Compare that (Ubuntu) with Arch's "rolling release
model" which truly makes sense to me, and is akin to Sun's Solaris.
Solaris programs I wrote and compiled 10 years ago still run fine on
the latest Solaris 10u6 released in October 2008.

With that written, I use Ubuntu 8.04LTS for all my astronomical apps,
but when support for 8.04LTS ends in April 2011 I may move the apps
to another distro if things haven't improved with Ubuntu's policies.





#54921 From: Scott <scottro@...>
Date: Mon Jan 12, 2009 12:06 pm
Subject: Re: Re: Ubuntu vs M$?
catbit_1999
Offline Offline
Send Email Send Email
 
On Mon, Jan 12, 2009 at 08:56:10AM -0000, Thad Floryan wrote:
>
> The Ubuntu team has made some other recent questionable assertions and
> assumptions. I now have to manually update /boot/grub/menu.lst because
> it's no longer done automatically for kernel updates in 8.04LTS.
>
> And the wireless fiasco with the recent 8.10 release is legion.

The trouble is that they all seem to make stupid decisions. Fedora is
worse, both as far as ignoring their users and their decisions.

They call themselves cutting edge, but they're one of the few distros
that make changing password hashing to blowfish difficult. (In Ubuntu,
aptitude install pam_unix2 or a similarly named package, edit a few
files in /etc/pam.d and you're done. In Fedora, there's no pam_unix2
package, for starters.

Now, blowfish isn't some shatteringly new technology. Fedora would be
better off putting at least some of its efforts into things like that
rather than things that no one really likes, needs, or wants, such as
pulseaudio and package kit.

At least with Arch and the other smaller distros, one can easily get in
touch with developers, and unpopular decisions can frequently be
changed. (Although, perhaps because there's less of a distinction
between them, there are not too many unpopular or outright stupid
decisions.)

I remember reading someone's blog about how their 8.04 LTS install was
broken--again--after an update. The blogger wrote that it wasn't
difficult to fix, but the whole point of using 8.04 was to avoid garbage
like this.

It's not that MS and Mac updates don't break anything--it's just that
when they do, they have enough of a grip on the their market so that
people will take it. In other words, they can get away with it.

Ubuntu (and other distros) can't.



--
Scott Robbins
PGP keyID EB3467D6
( 1B48 077D 66F6 9DB0 FDC2 A409 FA54 EB34 67D6 )
gpg --keyserver pgp.mit.edu --recv-keys EB3467D6

Xander: So, Buffy, how'd the slaying go last night?
Buffy: Xander!
Xander: I mean, how'd the laying go? No, I don't mean that either.



#54922 From: Steve Friis <wm5z@...>
Date: Mon Jan 12, 2009 2:15 pm
Subject: Re: Re: Ubuntu vs M$?
sfriis2002
Offline Offline
Send Email Send Email
 
** Moderator note: trimming done and top-posting corrected. Signature
** delimiter added. Please do this yourself in future.

Thad Floryan wrote:

> The Ubuntu team has made some other recent questionable assertions
> and assumptions. [...]

I read the article mentioned earlier in the thread, and it fit right
in with the problems I've had.

I just wonder what you think of Fedora? It, too, had had issues. Just
when I finally learn how to do something, they change how it's done.

Is there an easy to install Linux Distro like Fedora or Ubunto? I do
favor Gnome over KDE, and I like the Fedora layout. I'm willing to
try other makes. RPM based is best for me, but I'm not totally
against learning new tools.

--
<><Steve/WM5Z><>
Location: Las Cruces, NM: DM62oh
No one can change the past, but we all influence the future.
Remember, you too can have a computer like a wigwam, No windows, no gates.
Linux User Number 481782 <http://counter.li.org/>



#54923 From: "Allen D. Tate" <atate@...>
Date: Mon Jan 12, 2009 4:00 pm
Subject: Re: Re: Ubuntu vs M$?
otplsfriends
Offline Offline
Send Email Send Email
 
Steve Friis wrote:
> ** Moderator note: trimming done and top-posting corrected. Signature
> ** delimiter added. Please do this yourself in future.
>
> Thad Floryan wrote:
>
> > The Ubuntu team has made some other recent questionable assertions
> > and assumptions. [...]
>
> I read the article mentioned earlier in the thread, and it fit right
> in with the problems I've had.
>
> I just wonder what you think of Fedora? It, too, had had issues. Just
> when I finally learn how to do something, they change how it's done.
>
> Is there an easy to install Linux Distro like Fedora or Ubunto? I do
> favor Gnome over KDE, and I like the Fedora layout. I'm willing to
> try other makes. RPM based is best for me, but I'm not totally
> against learning new tools.

FWIW, I've been messing with CentOS 5.2 and I'm liking it very much.
I've been messing with Ubuntu but CentOS so far seems to be working a
bit better. http://www.centos.org/
--
Allen D. Tate
Head of Computer Services
Ohio Township Public Library System
4111 Lakeshore Dr
PO Box 850
Newburgh, IN 47629
(812) 853-5468 x 313

http://www.ohio.lib.in.us/ (Library Home Page)
http://www.opensourceinlibraries.com/ (Open Source In Libraries)

The views expressed in this message are not necessarily
those of the Ohio Township Public Library System.




#54925 From: Scott <scottro@...>
Date: Mon Jan 12, 2009 4:44 pm
Subject: Re: Re: Ubuntu vs M$?
catbit_1999
Offline Offline
Send Email Send Email
 
On Mon, Jan 12, 2009 at 10:00:22AM -0600, Allen D. Tate wrote:
> > Thad Floryan wrote:
> >
> > > The Ubuntu team has made some other recent questionable assertions
> > > and assumptions. [...]
> >
> > I read the article mentioned earlier in the thread, and it fit right
> > in with the problems I've had.
> >
>
> FWIW, I've been messing with CentOS 5.2 and I'm liking it very much.
> I've been messing with Ubuntu but CentOS so far seems to be working a
> bit better. http://www.centos.org/

Despite being a server O/S, if you're not really into having the
absolute latest, greatest, only works sometimes (oops, I didn't mean
that) type stuff, CentOS is quite good. Its documentation team has some
pride in their work, unlike Fedora where it seems to be done with an
attitude of "It's my turn????".


They have a helpful forum, but you are expected to do your homework
first. So be sure to read Ned's Read This First if you join. :)

It's a relatively quiet forum--I think one reason is that many of the
members are system admin types, and usually solve their troubles on
their own. Don't let that scare you, there are some brusque folks there
but also some very nice ones.


--
Scott Robbins
PGP keyID EB3467D6
( 1B48 077D 66F6 9DB0 FDC2 A409 FA54 EB34 67D6 )
gpg --keyserver pgp.mit.edu --recv-keys EB3467D6

Angel: The Master arose. He let me live... to punish me. I kept
hoping you'd come. My destiny...
Buffy: Is this a get-in-my-pants thing? You guys in Sunnydale
talk like I'm the second coming.



#54926 From: "Allen D. Tate" <atate@...>
Date: Mon Jan 12, 2009 4:57 pm
Subject: Re: Re: Ubuntu vs M$?
otplsfriends
Offline Offline
Send Email Send Email
 
> Despite being a server O/S, if you're not really into having the
> absolute latest, greatest, only works sometimes (oops, I didn't mean
> that) type stuff, CentOS is quite good. Its documentation team has some
> pride in their work, unlike Fedora where it seems to be done with an
> attitude of "It's my turn????".
>
> They have a helpful forum, but you are expected to do your homework
> first. So be sure to read Ned's Read This First if you join. :)
>
> It's a relatively quiet forum--I think one reason is that many of the
> members are system admin types, and usually solve their troubles on
> their own. Don't let that scare you, there are some brusque folks there
> but also some very nice ones.

Brusque, indeed. I have seen them rag on someone, even after they claim
to have done their homework. They are, however, no more brusque there
that I've seen some folks be on here. I think part of that is because
some folks forget what it's like to have been new to the Linux scene or
maybe it's because they "picked it up" much easier than others. :~)




#54927 From: Scott <scottro@...>
Date: Mon Jan 12, 2009 5:11 pm
Subject: Re: Re: Ubuntu vs M$?
catbit_1999
Offline Offline
Send Email Send Email
 
On Mon, Jan 12, 2009 at 10:57:34AM -0600, Allen D. Tate wrote:

> >
> > It's a relatively quiet forum--I think one reason is that many of the
> > members are system admin types, and usually solve their troubles on
> > their own. Don't let that scare you, there are some brusque folks there
> > but also some very nice ones.
>
> Brusque, indeed. I have seen them rag on someone, even after they claim
> to have done their homework. They are, however, no more brusque there
> that I've seen some folks be on here. I think part of that is because
> some folks forget what it's like to have been new to the Linux scene or
> maybe it's because they "picked it up" much easier than others. :~)

Yes, there's a few like that. :) There's also the very nice Toracat
and Alan and Ned are pretty nice as well. Those three do far more than
their share of answering questions.

I can't recollect seeing someone who did their homework getting really
flamed--I have seen things like I've googled but found nothing and still
posting a question that would require a psychic to answer. :)

Something like, I can't get wireless to work--I've googled but haven't
found anything. A question like that is probably going to get rude
answers if it gets an answer at all.


--
Scott Robbins
PGP keyID EB3467D6
( 1B48 077D 66F6 9DB0 FDC2 A409 FA54 EB34 67D6 )
gpg --keyserver pgp.mit.edu --recv-keys EB3467D6

Jonathon: You think I just want attention?
Buffy: No, I think you're up here in a clock tower with a
high-powered rifle because you want to blend in.



#54932 From: "Thad Floryan" <thad@...>
Date: Mon Jan 12, 2009 6:20 pm
Subject: Re: Ubuntu vs M$?
thad_floryan
Offline Offline
Send Email Send Email
 
--- In linux@yahoogroups.com, Scott <scottro@...> wrote:
> [...]
> I can't recollect seeing someone who did their homework getting
> really flamed--I have seen things like I've googled but found nothing
> and still posting a question that would require a psychic to answer.
> :)
>
> Something like, I can't get wireless to work--I've googled but haven't
> found anything. A question like that is probably going to get rude
> answers if it gets an answer at all.

More people should read:

<http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html>

so that relevant info is in the first post for help (thus not requiring
eleventy-seven back-and-forths to simply determine which distro and
hardware in involved).

:-)





#54935 From: Scott <scottro@...>
Date: Mon Jan 12, 2009 7:52 pm
Subject: Re: Re: Ubuntu vs M$?
catbit_1999
Offline Offline
Send Email Send Email
 
On Mon, Jan 12, 2009 at 06:20:04PM -0000, Thad Floryan wrote:
> --- In linux@yahoogroups.com, Scott <scottro@...> wrote:
> > [...]
> >
> > Something like, I can't get wireless to work--I've googled but haven't
> > found anything. A question like that is probably going to get rude
> > answers if it gets an answer at all.
>
> More people should read:
>
> <http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html>
>
> so that relevant info is in the first post for help (thus not requiring
> eleventy-seven back-and-forths to simply determine which distro and
> hardware in involved).

Yes, that's in this list's faq. :) Although, the chances are, when
it's on the CentOS forums, that at least we know the distro if not the
version. :)


--
Scott Robbins
PGP keyID EB3467D6
( 1B48 077D 66F6 9DB0 FDC2 A409 FA54 EB34 67D6 )
gpg --keyserver pgp.mit.edu --recv-keys EB3467D6

Jonathon: You think I just want attention?
Buffy: No, I think you're up here in a clock tower with a
high-powered rifle because you want to blend in.



#54938 From: Steve Friis <wm5z@...>
Date: Tue Jan 13, 2009 12:32 am
Subject: Re: Re: Ubuntu vs M$?
sfriis2002
Offline Offline
Send Email Send Email
 

Thad Floryan wrote:
> --- In linux@yahoogroups.com, Scott <scottro@...> wrote:
>
>> [...]
>> I can't recollect seeing someone who did their homework getting
>> really flamed--I have seen things like I've googled but found nothing
>> and still posting a question that would require a psychic to answer.
>> :)
>>
>> Something like, I can't get wireless to work--I've googled but haven't
>> found anything. A question like that is probably going to get rude
>> answers if it gets an answer at all.
>>
>
> More people should read:
>
> <http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html>
>
> so that relevant info is in the first post for help (thus not requiring
> eleventy-seven back-and-forths to simply determine which distro and
> hardware in involved).
>
> :-)
>
That would be great for you geeks :-) Who have been using Linux for
years. For some of us, this is a whole new world. Where do we begin?
Even the names were changed to confuse us innocent. I wish I had a
command of just the language you people use.

I am what you would call a feeble desktop exploiter. I use Linux because
I hate the way Windows treated me when I had to reload it and couldn't
find the correct license. At the time, we had 5 Windows XP computers.
Now we have none.

I am willing to put up with a lot, but there are a great many here who
you guys scare off because you demand us to start with the correct
terminology.
If we already had the correct verbage in the correct sintax, we would
have probably found the answer using Yahoo or Google search.

Steve
Las Cruces, NM




#54939 From: Scott <scottro@...>
Date: Tue Jan 13, 2009 12:49 am
Subject: Re: Re: Ubuntu vs M$?
catbit_1999
Offline Offline
Send Email Send Email
 
On Mon, Jan 12, 2009 at 05:32:59PM -0700, Steve Friis wrote:
>
> Thad Floryan wrote:
> > --- In linux@yahoogroups.com, Scott <scottro@...> wrote:
> >
> >> Something like, I can't get wireless to work--I've googled but haven't
> >> found anything. A question like that is probably going to get rude
> >> answers if it gets an answer at all.
> >>
> >
> > More people should read:
> >
> > <http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html>
> >
> > so that relevant info is in the first post for help (thus not requiring
> > eleventy-seven back-and-forths to simply determine which distro and
> > hardware in involved).
> >
> > :-)
> >
> That would be great for you geeks :-) Who have been using Linux for
> years. For some of us, this is a whole new world. Where do we begin?
> Even the names were changed to confuse us innocent. I wish I had a
> command of just the language you people use.

Thad's link is written by someone who's more or less a Linux rock star.
:) It's still excellent, even for beginners, though it can scare them
off. The list faq, outdated though it is, still has good points about
how to post... http://home.roadrunner.com/~computertaijutsu/linfaq.html.
There's a link there to a FAQ or howto by Godwin that's also quite good,
even for the beginner.

> I am what you would call a feeble desktop exploiter. I use Linux because
> I hate the way Windows treated me when I had to reload it and couldn't
> find the correct license. At the time, we had 5 Windows XP computers.
> Now we have none.

Yes, back when Mr. Raymond wrote his essay, the bar was higher, so
to speak--you had to know more about your computer to get Linux to work
at all. Knoppix, I think, was one of the first to change that, but
anyway...

Yes, it can be intimidating. However, we (and I think most mailing
lists and forums) are quite tolerant of people who aren't quite sure
what to ask and who feel lost. Sometimes, the information is right out
there, and we get irked that they didn't even try, other times, googling
simply doesn't help. As one friend wrote on another list--to be pointed
to a cryptic howto that says enable smtp authorization on postfix, as if
it were a self standing instruction, was beyond his ability and beyond
what he was willing to do for what he wanted.

He's right--some howtos simply assume too much knowledge on the part of
the reader, sort of like giving a Ph.D DNA thesis to some 5 year old
asking where babies come from.

>
> I am willing to put up with a lot, but there are a great many here who
> you guys scare off because you demand us to start with the correct
> terminology.
> If we already had the correct verbage in the correct sintax, we would
> have probably found the answer using Yahoo or Google search.

Hrrm, I don't think that's quite fair. We usually point out what needs
to be asked. Of course, we have moods too, some of us are grouchier
than others, and the grouchiest one can change at any time.

My own feeling is to be tolerant as long as I see someone is making
effort--I truly understand that it can be overwhelming. The information
may be out there, but it's scattered all over the place.

Just hang in there, and soon you'll be intolerant too--no, no, I meant
to say, and soon you'll be one of the ones giving the answers rather
than asking the questions.
Just take a look at Godwin's articles though, to make sure to post your
questions in a way that the geeks types don't mind reading--mostly being
sure to trim unnecessary stuff, and try to not top post, and you'll
probably be fine. You also, if you're going to go with Fedora, might
consider their forums, which can be quite valuable, though it certainly
has its share of grouchy people. However, a good 95 percent of the
time, you'll get some sort of answer--not always of course, sometimes,
it's one of those weird things that no one knows.



--
Scott Robbins
PGP keyID EB3467D6
( 1B48 077D 66F6 9DB0 FDC2 A409 FA54 EB34 67D6 )
gpg --keyserver pgp.mit.edu --recv-keys EB3467D6

Cordelia: Hi! You having fun?
Angel: Sure. This is, uh...
Cordelia: Your idea of hell.
Angel: Actually, in hell you tend to know a lot of the people



#54940 From: "Thad Floryan" <thad@...>
Date: Tue Jan 13, 2009 8:25 am
Subject: Re: Ubuntu vs M$?
thad_floryan
Offline Offline
Send Email Send Email
 
--- In linux@yahoogroups.com, Steve Friis <wm5z@...> wrote:
> [...]
> That would be great for you geeks :-) Who have been using Linux
> for years. For some of us, this is a whole new world. Where do we
> begin? Even the names were changed to confuse us innocent. I wish I
> had a command of just the language you people use.

I understand your dilemma. The situation is similar for almost any
(new) hobby or field of technical endeavor, and is compounded by the
"alphabet soup" of acronyms and "in" words and phrases which have
different meanings depending on context. "Boot" is footwear, the
process of starting a computer, or even being RIF'd (Reduction In
(work)Force) in business. "Shell" is a command line interface, ammo,
what's found by the seashore, forking over money, or even a company.
Probably not the best examples, but I hope you get the picture. :-)

The following may prove helpful, found using "introduction to linux"
to Google:

<http://tldp.org/LDP/intro-linux/intro-linux.pdf>
<http://www.tldp.org/> [the Linux documentation project]
<http://www.linux.org/lessons/beginner/index.html>
<http://www.linux.com/articles/113155>

> I am what you would call a feeble desktop exploiter. I use Linux
> because I hate the way Windows treated me when I had to reload it
> and couldn't find the correct license. At the time, we had 5 Windows
> XP computers. Now we have none.

That's good (I think :-).

But that's a bummer. If you ever encounter that problem again, the
free "Belarc Advisor" <http://www.belarc.com/> retrieves product keys
and totally characterizes one's system(s).

> I am willing to put up with a lot, but there are a great many here
> who you guys scare off because you demand us to start with the
> correct terminology.
> If we already had the correct verbage in the correct sintax, we
> would have probably found the answer using Yahoo or Google search.

You'd be surprised how well Google does with a full sentence as a
question expressed in general terms. This example input to Google
"how do I create a root login on my Ubuntu system?" provided the real
answer as did this "how do I install Linux on my laptop?" and this
"how do I login to Linux if I forgot my password?" (without quotes).
One or two word searches are likely to prove frustrating with page
after page of irrelevant "hits".

But the real problem is that some people do absolutely no research,
barge into a group or forum, post a one or two liner question, and
expect everyone to stop what they're doing and help them exclusively.
They frequently provide no context (Linux distro and version or
anything describing the hardware they're using when relevant); such
questions will either be ignored and/or the poster will be flamed.

Just to give you an example of what I mean, it took about 30 seconds
to find the following real postings in Usenet's comp.os.linux.* groups
and several other Yahoo groups. Salutations and poster's signatures
have been removed, otherwise the postings are in their entirety via a
copy'n'paste:

" We are going to shift windows pc to linux. How i will migrate mails
" of MS-Outlook to evolution.

and

" how and where do delete the linux temporary files(like internet
" files)?

and

" Need a document on installation and configuration of SARG

and

" how to check when the O/S users (other than default) have been
" created in Linux server. how to check when the Linux o/s is
" installed.

and

" i want to configure mysql n php in rhel 5 so plz help me. give me
" some links to study for mysql and php

There are 1000s of such postings. Do you see a trend? Seldom is the
distro mentioned. "Please" is rare, "Give me" or "gimme" is common.
"Texting"-style writing is common (and an instant turn-off for many).

Often the answers could have been found simply by entering the name
of the relevant program to Google. Look at the "SARG" example above;
simply typing "SARG" or "SARG documentation" to Google would have
provided the poster with the info s/he wanted. Needless to say, that
question was never answered in the forum where I found it.

I think it's safe to say most people are tolerant of typos and the
like, and if anyone makes an effort to explain their problem, even in
simple words, answers will be forthcoming. It's a lot easier today
with the Internet and forums such as this. When I started using
computers back in the early 1960s, I literally had to do "dumpster
diving" to get program listings to teach myself assembly language and
Fortran programming from the examples I found.





#54943 From: Herbert R Coburn <cidhus@...>
Date: Tue Jan 13, 2009 2:52 pm
Subject: Re: Re: Ubuntu vs M$?
cidhus
Offline Offline
Send Email Send Email
 
Steve Friis wrote:
> Thad Floryan wrote:
[snip]
>> More people should read:
>>
>> <http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html>
>>
>> so that relevant info is in the first post for help (thus not requiring
>> eleventy-seven back-and-forths to simply determine which distro and
>> hardware in involved).
>>
>> :-)
>>
> That would be great for you geeks :-) Who have been using Linux for
> years. For some of us, this is a whole new world. Where do we begin?
> Even the names were changed to confuse us innocent. I wish I had a
> command of just the language you people use.
>

I think the names have been around since 1969 or so. I've been using
Linux since 1995 and find Wikipedia extremely helpful, but I still
embarrass myself. I'm just an old man that likes to own the things
he breaks -- far from a geek.

> I am what you would call a feeble desktop exploiter. I use Linux because
> I hate the way Windows treated me when I had to reload it and couldn't
> find the correct license. At the time, we had 5 Windows XP computers.
> Now we have none.
>

You takes the King's shillings, you live by the King's rules.

> I am willing to put up with a lot, but there are a great many here who
> you guys scare off because you demand us to start with the correct
> terminology.

No one has ever flamed me for using the wrong word, though I've been
gently corrected now and then. If you are having severe problems
with terminology, read the RUTE like I did. Look up the HOW_TOs that
come with your distro with Wikipedia open in another window. Take
the time to google the specs on your machine if you can't open the
case and copy down numbers off of chips.

I had a problem setting up my home network. I knew nothing about
networking. Still know very little. But, before coming to the list,
I started with a google on "home network" and branched out. I was
still pretty ignorant, but the list was kind and helpful. At least
I knew some of the basics when they answered.

Would you go to a restaurant in a foreign land and complain because
their menus weren't in your native tongue and they demanded you
order your meal in theirs?

Had you read the referenced link thoroughly, you would have known
not to insult the experts you depend on with your first paragraph,
and realized that the second paragraph (though nice to know) is
irrelevant. The third paragraph, you would have re-worded to read
I've tried to read "this" and "that" but there are too many
words that I don't understand, such as ...list... Can
someone point me to a newbie's introduction?
Then I would have replied
RUTE at http://members.toast.net/art.ross/rute/
Intro at http://www.tldp.org/LDP/intro-linux/html/intro-linux.html
and may have taken the time to Google a few more.

I believe the first thing any newbie has to realize is that
Fedora, Ubuntu, Mandriva, Slackware, SuSE, and others are quite
different from each other. From what I've recently read, one
version of Fedora is just as different from another as it is
from Slackware. Though I can read minds, I'm very new at it and
my distance is limited to just a few inches. I need the common
words used by the geeks to understand the questions, if I'm to
offer anything useful. And, the more detail about your machine,
distro, and symptoms, the better I can answer.

/herbc




#54930 From: "Thad Floryan" <thad@...>
Date: Mon Jan 12, 2009 6:13 pm
Subject: Re: Ubuntu vs M$?
thad_floryan
Offline Offline
Send Email Send Email
 
--- In linux@yahoogroups.com, Scott <scottro@...> wrote:
>
> On Mon, Jan 12, 2009 at 10:00:22AM -0600, Allen D. Tate wrote:
> > > Thad Floryan wrote:
> > >
> > > > The Ubuntu team has made some other recent questionable
> > > > assertions and assumptions. [...]
> > >
> > > I read the article mentioned earlier in the thread, and it fit
> > > right in with the problems I've had.
> > >
> >
> > FWIW, I've been messing with CentOS 5.2 and I'm liking it very
> > much.
> > I've been messing with Ubuntu but CentOS so far seems to be
> > working a bit better. http://www.centos.org/
>
> Despite being a server O/S, if you're not really into having the
> absolute latest, greatest, only works sometimes (oops, I didn't mean
> that) type stuff, CentOS is quite good. Its documentation team has some
> pride in their work, unlike Fedora where it seems to be done with an
> attitude of "It's my turn????".

It seems it's time again to mention CentOS is essentially an unbranded
RHEL. Based on that, it seems a good choice for a stable workhorse
system without all the bleeding-edge gotchas (re: wireless, movies,
and audio).





#54933 From: Scott <scottro@...>
Date: Mon Jan 12, 2009 6:22 pm
Subject: Re: Re: Ubuntu vs M$?
catbit_1999
Offline Offline
Send Email Send Email
 
On Mon, Jan 12, 2009 at 06:13:06PM -0000, Thad Floryan wrote:
> --- In linux@yahoogroups.com, Scott <scottro@...> wrote:
> >
> > pride in their work, unlike Fedora where it seems to be done with an
> > attitude of "It's my turn????".
>
> It seems it's time again to mention CentOS is essentially an unbranded
> RHEL. Based on that, it seems a good choice for a stable workhorse
> system without all the bleeding-edge gotchas (re: wireless, movies,
> and audio).

Although you can get all that running. I watch movies with mplayer on
it. On the laptops, I have wireless working, though I had to install
MadWifi drivers from MadWifi's site. Sound on many of these laptops
won't work with the CentOS alsa drivers, but in each case, I've gotten
it working with the atrpms. Same with webcams, and actually, I think
Ned just did a wiki article on them, he's gotten really into them
lately. :)


(Sound and wireless CentOS wiki articles are also there, depending upon
hardware--Most of the Acer stuff is mine.)


--
Scott Robbins
PGP keyID EB3467D6
( 1B48 077D 66F6 9DB0 FDC2 A409 FA54 EB34 67D6 )
gpg --keyserver pgp.mit.edu --recv-keys EB3467D6

Buffy: People to see, demons to kill.




#54929 From: "Thad Floryan" <thad@...>
Date: Mon Jan 12, 2009 6:05 pm
Subject: Re: Ubuntu vs M$?
thad_floryan
Offline Offline
Send Email Send Email
 
--- In linux@yahoogroups.com, "Allen D. Tate" <atate@...> wrote:
> [...]
> FWIW, I've been messing with CentOS 5.2 and I'm liking it very much.
> I've been messing with Ubuntu but CentOS so far seems to be working a
> bit better. http://www.centos.org/

Be aware the CentOS 5.2 Live CD won't boot on a system with SATA drives.
I had to file a bugzilla about that and last I read (November 27, 2008)
it hasn't been fixed yet.





#54931 From: Scott <scottro@...>
Date: Mon Jan 12, 2009 6:19 pm
Subject: Re: Re: Ubuntu vs M$?
catbit_1999
Offline Offline
Send Email Send Email
 
On Mon, Jan 12, 2009 at 06:05:51PM -0000, Thad Floryan wrote:
> --- In linux@yahoogroups.com, "Allen D. Tate" <atate@...> wrote:
> > [...]
> > FWIW, I've been messing with CentOS 5.2 and I'm liking it very much.
> > I've been messing with Ubuntu but CentOS so far seems to be working a
> > bit better. http://www.centos.org/
>
> Be aware the CentOS 5.2 Live CD won't boot on a system with SATA drives.
> I had to file a bugzilla about that and last I read (November 27, 2008)
> it hasn't been fixed yet.

That's interesting, I had no trouble installing the normal CD on SATA.

My problem was with the Aspire One's realtek (wired) NIC. I have that
detailed on the CentOS wiki. That is the type of problem one can run
into on CentOS, hardware support, though it's usually fixable.


--
Scott Robbins
PGP keyID EB3467D6
( 1B48 077D 66F6 9DB0 FDC2 A409 FA54 EB34 67D6 )
gpg --keyserver pgp.mit.edu --recv-keys EB3467D6

Willow: Everything seems normal. Not a snake, not a wasp.
Cordelia: Yup. School can open tomorrow.
Xander: Explain to me again how that's a good thing?
Cordelia: I'm drawing a blank.



#54934 From: "Thad Floryan" <thad@...>
Date: Mon Jan 12, 2009 6:30 pm
Subject: Re: Ubuntu vs M$?
thad_floryan
Offline Offline
Send Email Send Email
 
--- In linux@yahoogroups.com, Scott <scottro@...> wrote:
>
> On Mon, Jan 12, 2009 at 06:05:51PM -0000, Thad Floryan wrote:
> > --- In linux@yahoogroups.com, "Allen D. Tate" <atate@> wrote:
> > > [...]
> > > FWIW, I've been messing with CentOS 5.2 and I'm liking it very
much.
> > > I've been messing with Ubuntu but CentOS so far seems to be
working a
> > > bit better. http://www.centos.org/
> >
> > Be aware the CentOS 5.2 Live CD won't boot on a system with SATA
drives.
> > I had to file a bugzilla about that and last I read (November 27,
2008)
> > it hasn't been fixed yet.
>
> That's interesting, I had no trouble installing the normal CD on SATA.

As I cited in the bugzilla, the CentOS Live CD problem originated as
far back as Fedora 7, and probably earlier. Whatever it is that collects
everything together for the live CD is including ages-ago software
that is not current with the latest release.

A copy of the bugzilla I filed can be read here:

<http://thadlabs.com/FILES/CentOS_5.2_Live_CD_problem.txt>

I suspect the driver(s) in the Live CD ISO simply don't support SATA
whereas the ones on the install CD do support SATA.

I've tried the CentOS 5.2 Live CD on over 10 other new desktops since
filing the bugzilla and experienced the same problem with all. The
CentOS 5.2 Live CD does boot and work fine on any of my old Dell
laptops.







#54936 From: Scott <scottro@...>
Date: Mon Jan 12, 2009 8:04 pm
Subject: Re: Re: Ubuntu vs M$?
catbit_1999
Offline Offline
Send Email Send Email
 
On Mon, Jan 12, 2009 at 06:30:01PM -0000, Thad Floryan wrote:
> --- In linux@yahoogroups.com, Scott <scottro@...> wrote:
> >
> > >
> > > Be aware the CentOS 5.2 Live CD won't boot on a system with SATA
> drives.
> > > I had to file a bugzilla about that and last I read (November 27,
> 2008)
> > > it hasn't been fixed yet.
> >
> > That's interesting, I had no trouble installing the normal CD on SATA.
>
> As I cited in the bugzilla, the CentOS Live CD problem originated as
> far back as Fedora 7, and probably earlier. Whatever it is that collects
> everything together for the live CD is including ages-ago software
> that is not current with the latest release.

>
> I suspect the driver(s) in the Live CD ISO simply don't support SATA
> whereas the ones on the install CD do support SATA.

Yeah, looking at the bug report--hrrm, can't find my CentOS bugzilla
information, but got in anonymously--it looks as if it's known and
they're not going to do anything about it.


--
Scott Robbins
PGP keyID EB3467D6
( 1B48 077D 66F6 9DB0 FDC2 A409 FA54 EB34 67D6 )
gpg --keyserver pgp.mit.edu --recv-keys EB3467D6

Kendra: I call it Mr. Pointy.
Buffy: You named your stake?
Kendra: Yes.
Buffy: Remind me to get you a stuffed animal.



#54924 From: Scott <scottro@...>
Date: Mon Jan 12, 2009 4:40 pm
Subject: Re: Re: Ubuntu vs M$?
catbit_1999
Offline Offline
Send Email Send Email
 
On Mon, Jan 12, 2009 at 07:15:54AM -0700, Steve Friis wrote:
> ** Moderator note: trimming done and top-posting corrected. Signature
> ** delimiter added. Please do this yourself in future.
>
> Thad Floryan wrote:
>
> > The Ubuntu team has made some other recent questionable assertions
> > and assumptions. [...]
>
> I read the article mentioned earlier in the thread, and it fit right
> in with the problems I've had.
>
> I just wonder what you think of Fedora? It, too, had had issues. Just
> when I finally learn how to do something, they change how it's done.

Yes, that's Fedora--cutting edge, except for the important things.


>
> Is there an easy to install Linux Distro like Fedora or Ubunto? I do
> favor Gnome over KDE, and I like the Fedora layout. I'm willing to
> try other makes. RPM based is best for me, but I'm not totally
> against learning new tools.

Well, there's Mepis. However, it's KDE based. There's Mint, but it's
based on Ubuntu. There is Blag, which is usually a single CD based on
Fedora.

There is also CentOS, based on RHEL5 (RedHat 5's server edition) but it
will usually have outdated packages--outdated in the desktop user sense.


The trouble is that so many distros are based on Ubuntu especially, that
it's hard to find one that doesn't imitate its mistakes.


--
Scott Robbins
PGP keyID EB3467D6
( 1B48 077D 66F6 9DB0 FDC2 A409 FA54 EB34 67D6 )
gpg --keyserver pgp.mit.edu --recv-keys EB3467D6

Anya: Men like sports. I'm sure of it.
Xander: Yes. Men like sports. Men watch the action movie, they
eat of the beef, and they enjoy to look at the bosoms. A thousand
years of avenging our wrongs, and that's all you've learned?



#54928 From: "Thad Floryan" <thad@...>
Date: Mon Jan 12, 2009 6:01 pm
Subject: Re: Ubuntu vs M$?
thad_floryan
Offline Offline
Send Email Send Email
 
--- In linux@yahoogroups.com, Steve Friis <wm5z@...> wrote:
>
> Thad Floryan wrote:
>
> > The Ubuntu team has made some other recent questionable assertions
> > and assumptions. [...]
>
> I read the article mentioned earlier in the thread, and it fit right
> in with the problems I've had.

When I read the release notes for Ubuntu 8.10 (the latest), it was
clear I was going to remain with 8.04LTS for as long as I use Ubuntu.

My primary work Linux laptop is running Red Hat 9. Yes, I know it's
ancient (circa 2002-2003), but it's stable and I manually update
requisite programs as necessary. I still have and run some UNIX and
Solaris systems from the 1980s and 1990s which perform their tasks
well -- no need to force-update the systems every 6 months. I maintain
critical software current by compiling from source.

> I just wonder what you think of Fedora? It, too, had had issues.
> Just when I finally learn how to do something, they change how it's
> done.

That *IS* annoying. Seems the Fedora folks haven't really bothered
to read the File Hierarchy Standard <http://www.pathname.com/fhs/>
among other things.

With that written, I have Fedora Core 2 here at home running a
complete asterisk VoIP system (except for the PRI), and Fedora 8, 9
and 10 on multi-boot systems so I can see what they've been changing.
Other than the sometimes bizarre changes between releases, these are
fairly robust systems for everything I do with them. There are many
sites "out there" running, say, Fedora Core 3 for their web servers
and it seems to perform that task well. Frankly, I use FreeBSD. :-)

FWIW, Red Hat Enterprise Linux seems popular with the US Government
and even the NSA has a guidebook how to operate and secure a RHEL
system:

<http://www.nsa.gov/snac/os/redhat/rhel5-guide-i731.pdf>

> Is there an easy to install Linux Distro like Fedora or Ubunto? I do
> favor Gnome over KDE, and I like the Fedora layout. I'm willing to
> try other makes. RPM based is best for me, but I'm not totally
> against learning new tools.

Depends on one's requirements. Seriously, I've found Fedora and Ubuntu
easy to install and use on desktops, but then I don't use wireless or
play music or movies on them. Laptops seem to be a moving target and
that's where most of the (new) problems seem to appear since each new
day's laptop production introduces a new chipset (slight exagerration)
for which drivers are lacking. Older laptops seem well supported.

Best general solution is to try a Live CD/DVD of a distro before
committing to it, and stick with the "main" distros for better support
and repositories. I submit there are far too many Linux distros, and
bad experiences with the "minors" leaves a bad taste in one's mouth.





#54941 From: Steve Friis <wm5z@...>
Date: Mon Jan 12, 2009 11:54 pm
Subject: Re: Re: Ubuntu vs M$?
sfriis2002
Offline Offline
Send Email Send Email
 
Thanks for all the responses.

All the concensus points to me staying with Fedora. I appreciate all the
feedback.

<><Steve/WM5Z><>

>



#54919 From: "Niranjan Kulkarni" <guruofcpp@...>
Date: Mon Jan 12, 2009 3:57 am
Subject: Re: Ubuntu vs M$?
guruofcpp@...
Send Email Send Email
 


-------Original Message-------

From: Jye Nigma
Date: 01/11/2009 10:25:55 PM
To: linux@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Linux] Ubuntu vs M$?

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/11/business/11ubuntu
html?pagewanted=1&_r=1&ref=technology


>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Niranjan<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

That is wonderful article.
I hate the words towards the end, "he’s going to have a crisis of faith at
some point" said by Matt Asay.
I am really curious to see how the vision of Mr.Shuttleworth works out.
I will be the biggest believer in his ideology if this ideology gets
successful.

- Niranjan.



 
Advanced
Add to My Yahoo!      XML What's This?

Copyright © 2009 Yahoo! Inc. All rights reserved.
Privacy Policy - Terms of Service - Guidelines - Help