On Tuesday 04 November 2003 11:04, Bob Ambroso wrote:
> I think we will give the terminal server a serious look. Frankly, the
> maintenance of a hundred Windows machines is getting tiresome. The thought
> of updating one machine and being finished is quite enticing! I am going to
> make this a test project for the next several months. I hope, if there is
> some experience out there, I may call on you folks for some help if
> needed..
>
> \bob
I think somebody here could probably help with that, and while you're at it,
give http://obiblio.sourceforge.net/ a look
--
We're on Token Ring, and it looks like the token got loose.

I think we will give the terminal server a serious look. Frankly, the
maintenance of a hundred Windows machines is getting tiresome. The thought of
updating one machine and being finished is quite enticing!
I am going to make this a test project for the next several months. I hope, if
there is some experience out there, I may call on you folks for some help if
needed..

\bob

	 -----Original Message-----
	 From: Richard June [mailto:rjune@...]
	 Sent: Tue 11/4/2003 7:02 AM
	 To: linuxinlibraries@yahoogroups.com
	 Cc:
	 Subject: Re: [Linux In Libraries] Red Hat EOL


	 On Tuesday 04 November 2003 09:11, Tim Chase wrote:
	 [snip]
	 > :)  Mandrake (based on RH) seems a little more polished and less
	 > commercially crass...besides, their installer is one of the best I've
	 > encountered.  If you're comfortable with the feel of RH, but want other
	 > options, Mandrake might be an option to investigate.
	 I dunno about that, I've always had the impression that Mandrake was a cheap
	 knockoff of RH(A sentiment that may very well be shared since they are
	 currently going through re-org via bankruptcy.

	 > Another route you may want to investigate is the Linux Terminal Server
	 > project (www.ltsp.org) and run your user-side machines as terminals to a
	 > beefier server, which consolidates the "serious" administration to a
	 > single server machine, allowing you to swap out a terminal in the event of
	 > a problem.  Additionally, those terminals have pretty low system
	 > requirements for those who happen not to be blessed with the infinite
	 > budget ;)  (32 megs of memory, a 2 meg video card, a NIC, small HD, a
	 > monitor, mouse & keyboard, and that $20 386/486 machine can still find a
	 > useful life).  It may also allow for a greater number of user-facing
	 > machines for the same wad o' cash.
	 > I'm curious how may libraries running Linux are set up in a
	 > terminal-server scenario vs. stand-alone.
	 That is a lovely idea, it works wonderfully. We have three dumb terminals(AKA
	 X-Terms, and 13 NFS-Root terminals. both have been great for maintenance.

	 --
	 My mother once said to me, "Elwood," (she always called me Elwood)
	 "Elwood, in this world you must be oh so smart or oh so pleasant."
	 For years I tried smart.  I recommend pleasant.
	             -- Elwood P. Dowde, "Harvey"



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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

On Tuesday 04 November 2003 09:11, Tim Chase wrote:
[snip]
> :)  Mandrake (based on RH) seems a little more polished and less
> commercially crass...besides, their installer is one of the best I've
> encountered.  If you're comfortable with the feel of RH, but want other
> options, Mandrake might be an option to investigate.
I dunno about that, I've always had the impression that Mandrake was a cheap
knockoff of RH(A sentiment that may very well be shared since they are
currently going through re-org via bankruptcy.

> Another route you may want to investigate is the Linux Terminal Server
> project (www.ltsp.org) and run your user-side machines as terminals to a
> beefier server, which consolidates the "serious" administration to a
> single server machine, allowing you to swap out a terminal in the event of
> a problem.  Additionally, those terminals have pretty low system
> requirements for those who happen not to be blessed with the infinite
> budget ;)  (32 megs of memory, a 2 meg video card, a NIC, small HD, a
> monitor, mouse & keyboard, and that $20 386/486 machine can still find a
> useful life).  It may also allow for a greater number of user-facing
> machines for the same wad o' cash.
> I'm curious how may libraries running Linux are set up in a
> terminal-server scenario vs. stand-alone.
That is a lovely idea, it works wonderfully. We have three dumb terminals(AKA
X-Terms, and 13 NFS-Root terminals. both have been great for maintenance.

--
My mother once said to me, "Elwood," (she always called me Elwood)
"Elwood, in this world you must be oh so smart or oh so pleasant."
For years I tried smart.  I recommend pleasant.
		 -- Elwood P. Dowde, "Harvey"

> My first thought was, "time to reconsider Debian," and I suggested this
to
> my boss.  I suspect, though, that we'll grouse about it for a while and
> then write the checks.

I've found that from an administrative perspective, Debian and Slackware
are a bit more friendly towards remote (read "ssh") administration.  RH
may provide a more reliable support, but that's what they're chargin' for
:)  Mandrake (based on RH) seems a little more polished and less
commercially crass...besides, their installer is one of the best I've
encountered.  If you're comfortable with the feel of RH, but want other
options, Mandrake might be an option to investigate.

Another route you may want to investigate is the Linux Terminal Server
project (www.ltsp.org) and run your user-side machines as terminals to a
beefier server, which consolidates the "serious" administration to a
single server machine, allowing you to swap out a terminal in the event of
a problem.  Additionally, those terminals have pretty low system
requirements for those who happen not to be blessed with the infinite
budget ;)  (32 megs of memory, a 2 meg video card, a NIC, small HD, a
monitor, mouse & keyboard, and that $20 386/486 machine can still find a
useful life).  It may also allow for a greater number of user-facing
machines for the same wad o' cash.

I'm curious how may libraries running Linux are set up in a
terminal-server scenario vs. stand-alone.

-tim

How important is the support to you? Red Hat Linux is going away only
officially. The Fedora project is starting with the consumer version of RH
and continuing to develop it. The only difference is the lack of a
corporation to provide official support.

Jason Boyer

--
Jason Boyer
Information Technology Specialist
Jackson County Public Library
(812) 522-3412 x227
jasonb@...


> -----Original Message-----
> From: Mark H. Wood [mailto:mwood@...]
> Sent: Tuesday, November 04, 2003 8:46 AM
> To: linuxinlibraries@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [Linux In Libraries] Red Hat EOL
>
>
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
>
> My first thought was, "time to reconsider Debian," and I suggested this to
> my boss.  I suspect, though, that we'll grouse about it for a while and
> then write the checks.
>
> - --
> Mark H. Wood, Lead System Programmer   mwood@...
> MS Windows *is* user-friendly, but only for certain values of "user".
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>
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>
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>
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>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
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My first thought was, "time to reconsider Debian," and I suggested this to
my boss.  I suspect, though, that we'll grouse about it for a while and
then write the checks.

- --
Mark H. Wood, Lead System Programmer   mwood@...
MS Windows *is* user-friendly, but only for certain values of "user".
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NFCMj2odxSIzzvgh8Sug8y0=
=Z+f5
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> checked) there was a push to revive the codebase named Cheops-ng, but
that
> never seemed to go anywhere. that said, yes, cheops is indee pretty
slick.

Sounds like project "Cheops-No Go" ;)  sad :(

I take it this was the flavor of app you were hunting?

-tim

On Monday 03 November 2003 15:45, Tim Chase wrote:
> > open source programs to assist in mapping networks, network
> > monitoring, or anything else in that realm?
>
> Depends on what sorts of things you want to do.  If you want to evesdrop
> on your traffic, there's little better than Ethereal.  If you just want to
> monitor for incoming traffic (such as having your network swept and/or
> portmapped), you can set up firewall filters to (allow|deny)-but-log, and
> then monitor those logs.  Additionally, there's ngrep which you can use to
> sniff for particular traffic if you need.
>
> If you are looking to get a topological map of your network, I believe
> "EtherApe" gives an overall view of the traffic patterns, but it doesn't
> exactly give the topology.  I haven't tried Cheops.  Looks like a pretty
> slick tool.  I'll have to dig around on my Debian distro and see if I've
> got it around and give it a whirl.
Unfortunately Cheops itself has been unmaintained for around 4 years(last I
checked) there was a push to revive the codebase named Cheops-ng, but that
never seemed to go anywhere. that said, yes, cheops is indee pretty slick.

--
Doubt isn't the opposite of faith; it is an element of faith.
- Paul Tillich, German theologian and historian

> open source programs to assist in mapping networks, network
> monitoring, or anything else in that realm?

Depends on what sorts of things you want to do.  If you want to evesdrop
on your traffic, there's little better than Ethereal.  If you just want to
monitor for incoming traffic (such as having your network swept and/or
portmapped), you can set up firewall filters to (allow|deny)-but-log, and
then monitor those logs.  Additionally, there's ngrep which you can use to
sniff for particular traffic if you need.

If you are looking to get a topological map of your network, I believe
"EtherApe" gives an overall view of the traffic patterns, but it doesn't
exactly give the topology.  I haven't tried Cheops.  Looks like a pretty
slick tool.  I'll have to dig around on my Debian distro and see if I've
got it around and give it a whirl.

HTH,

-tim

On Monday 03 November 2003 13:49, Bob Ambroso wrote:
> Just wondering what you all think of the RH's announcement and how you
> think it will affect your deployments both existing and planned.. If you
> plan on sticking with RH what products are you (or considered) planning on
> using..
Which announcement are you referring to?
--
People will do tomorrow what they did today because that is what they
did yesterday.

On Monday 03 November 2003 13:49, Allen D. Tate wrote:
> Okay, why do you say my description of Scribus is kind? Do you have
> experience?
>

I played with it a bit, it's very bare. I'm not a desktop publisher though, my
own personal thought is that it shouldn't have been a 1.0 yet.

--
Happiness is good health and a bad memory.
		 -- Ingrid Bergman

On Monday 03 November 2003 13:51, Bob Ambroso wrote:
> I was (also) wondering if anyone has used any of the open source programs
> to assist in mapping networks, network monitoring, or anything else in that
> realm? I just installed a package named cheops and am having trouble
> getting any useful information out of it..
I've only ever used Cheops for network mapping, for most of the monitoring
stuff I use mrtg( http://www.mtrg.org/ ) and Nagios( http://www.nagios.org/
). You can see what the MRTG graphs look like @ http://www.ncpl.lib.in.us/
--
To err is human, to purr feline.
To err is human, two curs canine.
To err is human, to moo bovine.

These are just some notes from the RH website as it pertains to
migration..



Summary of Enterprise Levels:

Red Hat's Enterprise Linux family of operating systems is available on a
per-system, annual subscription basis. The subscriptions are offered in
three editions: Basic, Standard, and Premium -- each with varying
support levels and delivery options -- so you can choose the
subscription combination that best meets the needs of your business



** IMPORTANT NOTE - Purchase of an RHN Management Entitlement does not
allow access to RHEL content without an
<http://www.redhat.com/software/rhel> active RHEL subscription. Purchase
of this offering without a RHEL subscription will only allow the
subscriber access to the RHL channels, which reach End of Life on April
30, 2004.  <http://www.redhat.com/apps/support/errata/> Learn more about
the RHL End of Life policy



Price of RHN for one system (Red Hat Enterprise Linux ES
<http://www.redhat.com/software/rhel/es/>  Basic Edition) $174.50 (I
think that is a 50% discount as well?)



So it sounds to me like you will have access to ISO's until April 04' if
you have (and purchased RHN for RH9) all other expire Dec 31, 03..



Then you will have to purchase the Enterprise Level RHN to access
these.. They quoted me &174.50 / ea. This is a 50% discount according to
their site ("* 50% discount promotional price expires February 29th,
2004") So we might expect to pay double that next year for updates on
all servers (3+ currently)..



\Bob



-----Original Message-----
From: Allen D. Tate [mailto:atate@...]
Sent: Monday, November 03, 2003 11:04 AM
To: linuxinlibraries@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Linux In Libraries] Red Hat EOL



Bob wrote
Just wondering what you all think of the RH's announcement and how you
think it will affect your deployments both existing and planned.. If you
plan on sticking with RH what products are you (or considered) planning
on using.

Allen Replied:

Doesn't the EOL only basically cover paying for technical support? I
think you can still download the ISOs and use them for free.
--
Allen D. Tate
Head of Computer Services
Ohio Twp Public Library System
23 W. Jennings St.
Newburgh, IN 47630
(812) 853-5468 x 313
http://www.ohio.lib.in.us/

The views in my messages are not necessarily
those of the Ohio Township Public Library System!






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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Bob wrote
Just wondering what you all think of the RH's announcement and how you
think it will affect your deployments both existing and planned.. If you
plan on sticking with RH what products are you (or considered) planning
on using.

Allen Replied:

Doesn't the EOL only basically cover paying for technical support? I
think you can still download the ISOs and use them for free.
--
Allen D. Tate
Head of Computer Services
Ohio Twp Public Library System
23 W. Jennings St.
Newburgh, IN 47630
(812) 853-5468 x 313
http://www.ohio.lib.in.us/

The views in my messages are not necessarily
those of the Ohio Township Public Library System!

I was (also) wondering if anyone has used any of the open source programs to
assist in mapping networks, network monitoring, or anything else in that realm?
I just installed a package named cheops and am having trouble getting any useful
information out of it..

Bob Ambroso
Information Services Technician
Whittier Public Library
7344 S. Washington Ave
Whittier, CA 90602
(562) 464-3452
mailto:BAmbroso@...
 This electronic transmission, and any documents attached hereto, may contain
confidential and/or legally privileged information. The information is intended
for the sole use of the recipient named above. If you have received this
electronic message in error, please notify the sender and delete the electronic
message. Any disclosure, copying, distribution, or use of the contents of
information received in error is strictly prohibited.

Okay, why do you say my description of Scribus is kind? Do you have
experience?

Richard June wrote:
>
> That's a very kind description of scribus. Anyway, wine will probably be your
> best bet in getting CorelDraw to run, it's what corel used to port it
> initially(IIRC) and it's got a 4 out of five rating on the wine application
> list.
> --
> It [being a Vulcan] means to adopt a philosophy, a way of life which is
> logical and beneficial.  We cannot disregard that philosophy merely for
> personal gain, no matter how important that gain might be.
>                 -- Spock, "Journey to Babel", stardate 3842.4
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
linuxinlibraries-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
> Visit the website: http://www.ohio.lib.in.us/staff/atate/lil/
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

--
Allen D. Tate
Head of Computer Services
Ohio Twp Public Library System
23 W. Jennings St.
Newburgh, IN 47630
(812) 853-5468 x 313
http://www.ohio.lib.in.us/

The views in my messages are not necessarily
those of the Ohio Township Public Library System!

Just wondering what you all think of the RH's announcement and how you think it
will affect your deployments both existing and planned.. If you plan on sticking
with RH what products are you (or considered) planning on using..

\Bob

Bob Ambroso
Information Services Technician
Whittier Public Library
7344 S. Washington Ave
Whittier, CA 90602
(562) 464-3452
mailto:BAmbroso@...
 This electronic transmission, and any documents attached hereto, may contain
confidential and/or legally privileged information. The information is intended
for the sole use of the recipient named above. If you have received this
electronic message in error, please notify the sender and delete the electronic
message. Any disclosure, copying, distribution, or use of the contents of
information received in error is strictly prohibited.

That's a very kind description of scribus. Anyway, wine will probably be your
best bet in getting CorelDraw to run, it's what corel used to port it
initially(IIRC) and it's got a 4 out of five rating on the wine application
list.
--
It [being a Vulcan] means to adopt a philosophy, a way of life which is
logical and beneficial.  We cannot disregard that philosophy merely for
personal gain, no matter how important that gain might be.
		 -- Spock, "Journey to Babel", stardate 3842.4

> Sounds like a losing battle, if Corel doesn't care any more.  Have
you
> tried some of the open source products that *won't* go away?  The
Gimp,
> for example, although there are quite a few others.

Oh yes, I have the Gimp & love it. The reason I'm looking for Corle
Draw for Linux is that I have it for Windows (and love it too) and
would like to run it natively. Haven't tried it with Wine or
Crossover yet. Corel Draw can be used as a desktop publishing
solution. I know Scribus is out there for DTP but it's still very new
and they're still working out some issues. :)

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Sounds like a losing battle, if Corel doesn't care any more.  Have you
tried some of the open source products that *won't* go away?  The Gimp,
for example, although there are quite a few others.

- --
Mark H. Wood, Lead System Programmer   mwood@...
MS Windows *is* user-friendly, but only for certain values of "user".
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v1.2.2 (GNU/Linux)
Comment: pgpenvelope 2.10.2 - http://pgpenvelope.sourceforge.net/

iD8DBQE/pl4qs/NR4JuTKG8RAjdPAKCeier2nXAowmRIb5b4ERddP7djcACfa4Ce
3+HDC8RgMfJGMJ6EYnvFK+8=
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I've been sending press releases out to various Linux related websites
and magazines in hopes to get some publicity. Do you have any ideas for
places to get publicity? Please send them my way. :)
--
Allen D. Tate
Head of Computer Services
Ohio Twp Public Library System
23 W. Jennings St.
Newburgh, IN 47630
(812) 853-5468 x 313
http://www.ohio.lib.in.us/

The views in my messages are not necessarily
those of the Ohio Township Public Library System!

Never thought of that. (And I sent the original message to the wrong
list!)

Stephen Boggs wrote:
>
> Don't know about downloading, but have you tried e-bay?

Don't know about downloading, but have you tried e-bay?

Allen D. Tate wrote:

> I know that Corel no longer makes Corel Draw for Linux anymore *BUT*
> does anyone know where I could download a copy? I know you're supposed
> to pay for it...
> --
> Allen D. Tate
> Head of Computer Services
> Ohio Twp Public Library System
> 23 W. Jennings St.
> Newburgh, IN 47630
> (812) 853-5468 x 313
> http://www.ohio.lib.in.us/
>
> The views in my messages are not necessarily
> those of the Ohio Township Public Library System!
>
>
> *Yahoo! Groups Sponsor*
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--
Stephen Boggs, Director
New Carlisle - Olive Township Public Library
408 S. Bray St., P.O. Box Q
New Carlisle, IN 46552
574-654-3046
574-654-8260 fax
sboggs@...
www.ncpl.lib.in.us

I know that Corel no longer makes Corel Draw for Linux anymore *BUT*
does anyone know where I could download a copy? I know you're supposed
to pay for it...
--
Allen D. Tate
Head of Computer Services
Ohio Twp Public Library System
23 W. Jennings St.
Newburgh, IN 47630
(812) 853-5468 x 313
http://www.ohio.lib.in.us/

The views in my messages are not necessarily
those of the Ohio Township Public Library System!

> I did have a question:  is there any connection between this list and the
> "Linux in Libraries" <lil@...> list that seems to have
> died off sometime in 2001?

The is no connection other than the name. I swiped the info on this site
from their description. :) The reason I started this list/group in the
first place is because I couldn't find any other that hadn't been
abandoned.

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Thank you for setting up this list.

Linux is in use over here, but not (yet) in a big way.  We've a few
servers (DSpace, SFX, an abandoned trial of Jabber) and of course there's
the instance on my office desk. :-)  We're primarily a Microsoft shop
these days (after the University decided they disliked Novell and declined
to renew our MLA) and our central authentication service is ADS.  Every
now and then I suggest another backroom application or speak wistfully of
rolling out a Linux-based patron workstation.  We also have Macs for about
1/4 of our public stations.

I did have a question:  is there any connection between this list and the
"Linux in Libraries" <lil@...> list that seems to have
died off sometime in 2001?

- --
Mark H. Wood, Lead System Programmer   mwood@...
MS Windows *is* user-friendly, but only for certain values of "user".
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perhaps a brief introduction of ourselves would be in order. I
represent New Carlisle/Olive Township public library
(http://www.ncpl.lib.in.us/). I am a contractor acting as their
network admin/tech support. The director Stephen Boggs has asked that
I join the list and offer what assistance I can. I don't know about
most of your libraries, but NCPL has adopted linux in a pretty big
way. the opac systems are all dumb-terms running linux, most (13 out
of 20) of the patron systems run linux(RH8) by default (dual-boot to
win2k), and the network infrastructure is primarily linux(WinXP system
for Circ system server, and W2k box for secondary backup), we've found
it to be very cost-effective and sustainable. I go in one day a week
to maintain things locally.

> I'd like to thank you all for joining this group and welcome you. As I
> stated in my message announcing this group, there are no set guidelines
> for the group yet so we're pretty open to what we are planning to do. I
> want each of you to reply to the group and give an ideas/suggestions to
> the list. You are also welcome to post questions/requests as well. One
> goal I have for this list is to help the public get more comfortable
> with Linux and lessen the Fear, Uncertainty, Doubt (FUD) that is
> promoted my those with selfish interests. :)
I don't have a lot of ideas offhand, I had planned to lurk a bit and lend my
*BSD experience/opinions when necessary. :) I use it over Linux when there's
a choice. I am curious as to what other libraries are doing with free Unixes
though.


> I have a million-gazillion ideas for this list but I'll stop for now. ;)
> I welcome your input.

Thanks a lot for setting the list up Allen, it should be interesting.

Jason

--
Jason Boyer
Information Technology Specialist
Jackson County Public Library
(812) 522-3412 x227
jasonb@...

I'd like to thank you all for joining this group and welcome you. As I
stated in my message announcing this group, there are no set guidelines
for the group yet so we're pretty open to what we are planning to do. I
want each of you to reply to the group and give an ideas/suggestions to
the list. You are also welcome to post questions/requests as well. One
goal I have for this list is to help the public get more comfortable
with Linux and lessen the Fear, Uncertainty, Doubt (FUD) that is
promoted my those with selfish interests. :)

For members with Yahoo! IDs, you will have access to view
links/bookmarks, files, databases, and calendars. If you have something
you'd like to see added to and of these sections, forward them to me and
I'll add them. If you have any open source e-books or howto's, I'd love
to have them posted in the group files section.

I have a million-gazillion ideas for this list but I'll stop for now. ;)
I welcome your input.
--
Allen D. Tate
Head of Computer Services
Ohio Twp Public Library System
23 W. Jennings St.
Newburgh, IN 47630
(812) 853-5468 x 313
http://www.ohio.lib.in.us/

The views in my messages are not necessarily
those of the Ohio Township Public Library System!

*** This message is being sent to several lists. Please excuse the
duplicate messages. Feel free to forward this information to any
individual or organization that you feel may benefit from it. ***

Linux In Libraries (LIL) is an electronic mailing list/user group
dedicated to utilizing the Linux operating system in academic, public
and special libraries as an alternative affordable solution for public
access computing.

This is a new list so the range of topics and usual volume of discussion
have yet to be determined. We expect discussions to include, but not be
limited to:

- installation and configuration of Linux servers
- security and network administration
- the use of Samba, sendmail, the Apache web server, and other important
Linux utilities
- integrating Linux servers into diverse network configurations (NT,
Novell, etc.)
- exchanges of experiences and solutions
- a forum for addressing technical issues, particularly those distinct
to library environments
- a place to ask questions, make contacts and discover resources

LIL is currently available via the web at:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/linuxinlibraries
--
Allen D. Tate
Head of Computer Services
Ohio Twp Public Library System
23 W. Jennings St.
Newburgh, IN 47630
(812) 853-5468 x 313
http://www.ohio.lib.in.us/

The views in my messages are not necessarily
those of the Ohio Township Public Library System!