Hello,

Following the publication of all deliverables of the ITS Working Group, the ITS Interest Group has been created.

The mission of the Internationalization Tag Set Interest Group, part of the Internationalization Activity, is to foster a community of users of the Internationalization Tag Set (ITS) Version 1.0 Recommendation, by promoting its adoption within and outside of W3C, and gathering information on its further development.

This Interest Group is PUBLIC and OPEN TO EVERYONE
(you do not need to be W3C member to participate)

If you are...

- creating XML schemas used in different languages
- localizing XML documents
- developing localization or linguistic tools that process XML
- creating ITS rules for your XML formats
- using ITS and
- simply interested in XML and internationalization/localization

...you may want to join this group.

To do so, please first review the group's charter:

    http://www.w3.org/International/its/ig/ITSIGCharter

and home page:

    http://www.w3.org/International/its/ig/

and subscribe to the mailing list <public-i18n-its-ig@...>.

To subscribe simply send an email to public-i18n-its-ig-request@... with the word "subscribe" in the subject, or click on this link: mailto:public-i18n-its-ig-request@...?subject=subscribe.

The first teleconference and face-to-face meeting dates will be decided after the start of the group. If you have any questions or need further information, please let me know.

Cheers,
-yves

Hello everyone,

The "Best Practices for XML Internationalization" document has been
published as a W3C Work Group Note.

See: http://www.w3.org/TR/xml-i18n-bp/

The W3C Release note is here: http://www.w3.org/News/2008#item21


cheers,
-yves

Hi Yves,

If I am not misreading you, things can basically go in any direction depending
on
who is making the choices. Though you believe it could definitely be useful in
terms of providing a choice given the proper circumstances.

Thanks for your view on the matter.

Raymond

> > I was wondering if you could give me a little information about the
> > rationale behind choosing RelaxNG as the one-stop schema for ITS.
>
> Actually Relax NG is not the "one-stop schema for ITS". The ITS vocabulary is
provided
> in 4 formats: XML DTD, XML Schema, Relax NG  compact form, and Relax NG XML
form.
> See http://www.w3.org/TR/its/#its-schemas.
>
> We did use some blocks in Relax NG notation embedded inside the TEI/ODD source
> document that was used to generate the specification and the schemas. I am not
> aware of a specific rational (related to Relax NG) for that. I think it is
simply because
> some of us had already XSLT transformation templates we could re-use for this.
>
> So, I think it is certainly useful to have the 3 schema formats available for
a given
> specification, when there is time and resource to create and maintain them.
>
> If, for some reason, providing the 3 formats is not possible, I'm not sure
there
> is a rational that can be made to choose one over the other: They all have
> advantages and drawbacks. It is probably matter of preferences.

Hi Raymond,

> I was wondering if you could give me a little information about the
> rationale behind choosing RelaxNG as the one-stop schema for ITS.

Actually Relax NG is not the "one-stop schema for ITS". The ITS vocabulary is
provided in 4 formats: XML DTD, XML Schema, Relax NG
compact form, and Relax NG XML form. See http://www.w3.org/TR/its/#its-schemas.

We did use some blocks in Relax NG notation embedded inside the TEI/ODD source
document that was used to generate the specification
and the schemas. I am not aware of a specific rational (related to Relax NG) for
that. I think it is simply because some of us had
already XSLT transformation templates we could re-use for this.

So, I think it is certainly useful to have the 3 schema formats available for a
given specification, when there is time and resource
to create and maintain them.

If, for some reason, providing the 3 formats is not possible, I'm not sure there
is a rational that can be made to choose one over
the other: They all have advantages and drawbacks. It is probably matter of
preferences.


Cheers,
-yves

Hi Yves,

I was wondering if you could give me a little information about the
rationale behind choosing RelaxNG as the one-stop schema for ITS.

I am in the process of doing some R&D for RelaxNG schemas for the
LISA standards. TMX, in particular. Since you have been intimately
connected with that standard in the past, would you be able to share
your views on the matter?

I have brought up the topic of using RelaxNG for TMX in the recent
past to OSCAR and have met with almost complete resistance from the
present TMX editor. Upcoming TMX 2.0 includes the use of ITS, so it
is a little odd that there is so much opposition to it when quite a
number of different XML standards and recommendations are starting
to adopt it.

Any you can tell me would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks.

Raymond Martin

Hello,

The "Internationalization Tag Set (ITS)" specification has been published as a
W3C Recommendation.

The press release is here:
<http://www.w3.org/News/2007#item64>

The recommendation is available here:
<http://www.w3.org/TR/2007/REC-its-20070403/>

This is one of the results of the thoughts several of you started to put
together in August 2000, as you can see in the early post
of this list.

The next result should be the "Best Practices for XML Internationalization"
document, currently a Working Draft. For more
information about ITS, see: http://www.w3.org/International/its/

Cheers,
-yves

Hello,

Just a note to let you know that the "Internationalization Tag Set
(ITS)" specification has advanced to Proposed Recommendation.

The specification is available for comments here:
<http://www.w3.org/TR/2007/PR-its-20070226/>.

An implementation report is available here:
<http://www.w3.org/International/its/itstagset/ImpReport>.


Cheers,
-yves

Hello,

The "Internationalization Tag Set (ITS)" specification has advance to
Candidate Recommendation.

The specification is available for comments at
<http://www.w3.org/TR/2006/CR-its-20061102/>.

A preliminary implementation report is available here:
<http://www.w3.org/International/its/itstagset/ImpReport.html>

Cheers,
-yves

Hello,

The Last Call Working Draft of the "Internationalization Tag Set (ITS)"
specification is now available for comments in
<http://www.w3.org/TR/its/>.

A First Working draft document "Best Practices for XML Internationalization" has
also been published in
<http://www.w3.org/TR/xml-i18n-bp/>.

You can use Bugzilla to send your feedback. See
<http://www.w3.org/International/its/its-bugzilla> for instruction. You can also
send your comments to www-i18n-comments@.... Use "Comment on its tagset WD"
in the subject line of your email. The archives for
this list are publicly available here:
<http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-i18n-comments/>.

Cheers,
-yves

Hello,

The third Working Draft of the Internationalization Tag Set (ITS) is
now available for comments at <http://www.w3.org/TR/its/>. This set
of elements and attributes supports the internationalization and
localization of DTDs, schemes and XML documents.

As we are getting close to the Last Call draft, we are especially
keen on getting comments from XML schema developers, XML content
authors and localization tools vendors.

Please, send your comments to www-i18n-comments@.... Use "Comment
on its tagset WD" in the subject line of your email. The archives for
this list are publicly available here:
<http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-i18n-comments/>.

Cheers,
-yves

Hello,

Just s a note to let you know that the second Working Draft of the
Internationalization Tag Set (ITS) is now available for comments at
<http://www.w3.org/TR/its/>. This set of elements and attributes
supports the internationalization and localization of DTDs, schemes
and XML documents.

Send your comments to www-i18n-comments@.... Use "Comment on its
tagset WD" in the subject line of your email. The archives for this
list are publicly available <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-
i18n-comments/>.

Cheers,
-yves

Hello,

Just s a note to let you know that the First Working Draft of the
Internationalization Tag Set (ITS) is now available for comments
at <http://www.w3.org/TR/its/>. This set of elements and attributes supports the
internationalization and localization of DTDs,
schemas and XML documents.

Send your comments to www-i18n-comments@.... Use "Comment on its tagset WD"
in the subject line of your email. The archives for
this list are publicly available
<http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-i18n-comments/>.

Cheers,
-yves

Hello Yves,

Very well written message!        Regards,    Martin.

At 03:06 05/01/29, you wrote:

>Hello everyone,
>
>As we all know, the LISA-ITS list has been "hibernating" for some time
>now. The main reason for this was because the work of defining an
>internationalization tag set needed to be done in a more formal framework
>so it could have strong foundations and be widely adopted. Things have
>evolved slowly, but finally a home has been found for this initiative.
>
>As some of you may already know, the W3C Internationalization Activity
>has just formed the Internationalization Tag Set Working Group. You can
>find its home page here:
><http://www.w3.org/International/its/>http://www.w3.org/International/its/,
>and its charter here:
><http://www.w3.org/2004/11/i18n-recharter/its-charter>http://www.w3.org/2004/11\
/i18n-recharter/its-charter.
>
>I think the W3C will be a great place to provide both a solid structure
>for a comprehensive standard, and an efficient support for its promotion
>and implementation.
>
>If you are interested in being active in this effort, and can commit to
>the participation requirements, I encourage you to join the Working Group
>without delay:
><http://www.w3.org/International/its/howto-join.html>http://www.w3.org/Internat\
ional/its/howto-join.html.
>
>I will post any important information on this list as the Working Group
>is being set up. You can also follow  our progress by accessing the public
>mail archive
>(<http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-i18n-its/>http://lists.w3.org/Arch\
ives/Public/public-i18n-its/).
>Note that because it's still early it may be a short while before
>substantive material appears on that list.
>
>I hope many of you will be able to join in this work.
>
>-Yves Savourel
>ENLASO Corporation
>Chair, W3C ITS Working Group
>----------
>
>
>
>----------
>Yahoo! Groups Links
>    * To visit your group on the web, go to:
>    *
>
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lisa-its/>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lisa-its/
>    *
>    * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
>    *
>
<mailto:lisa-its-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe>lisa-its-unsubs\
cribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>    *
>    * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the
> <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>Yahoo! Terms of Service.

Hello everyone,

As we all know, the LISA-ITS list has been "hibernating" for some time now. The main reason for this was because the work of defining an internationalization tag set needed to be done in a more formal framework so it could have strong foundations and be widely adopted. Things have evolved slowly, but finally a home has been found for this initiative.

As some of you may already know, the W3C Internationalization Activity has just formed the Internationalization Tag Set Working Group. You can find its home page here: http://www.w3.org/International/its/, and its charter here: http://www.w3.org/2004/11/i18n-recharter/its-charter.

I think the W3C will be a great place to provide both a solid structure for a comprehensive standard, and an efficient support for its promotion and implementation.

If you are interested in being active in this effort, and can commit to the participation requirements, I encourage you to join the Working Group without delay: http://www.w3.org/International/its/howto-join.html.

I will post any important information on this list as the Working Group is being set up. You can also follow  our progress by accessing the public mail archive (http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-i18n-its/). Note that because it's still early it may be a short while before substantive material appears on that list.

I hope many of you will be able to join in this work.
 
-Yves Savourel
ENLASO Corporation
Chair, W3C ITS Working Group
----------

thanks for the info!

--- In lisa-its@yahoogroups.com, "Yves Savourel" <yves@o...> wrote:
> Hi John,
>
> This list is inactive because the work done of HTML and XML
localization
> aspects is now done by several more official groups, mostly:
>
> - The W3C GEO task force (http://www.w3.org/International/geo/)
> - The XLIFF TC at OASIS (www.xliff.org)
>
> Hope this helps.
> -yves
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: john snow [mailto:john@a...]
> Sent: Monday, January 26, 2004 5:19 AM
> To: lisa-its@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [lisa-its] A bit quiet
>
> Hello all,
>
> I joined the group in December and was looking forward to lots of
healthy
> debate and good advice. Particularly around the issues of website
> localization! Unfortunately it appears to be a bit quiet. Is this
just a
> quiet January and things will start to liven up soon?
>
> Cheers
>
> John Snow
> Business Development Director
> +44 (0) 870 990 5166
>
> ALS Translation Service <http://www.appliedlanguage.com/>
Translation
> services for 140 different languages
>
> ALS Website Translation
> <http://www.appliedlanguage.com/website_translation.shtml>
> Translation for all file types, formats and technology
>
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
> To visit your group on the web, go to:
>  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lisa-its/
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
>  lisa-its-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
>  http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

I will be out of the office starting January 21, 2004 and will not return
until February 2, 2004.

I will respond your message when I return. If you have sth emergent, please
get me via: 13621711233.  Thank you very much!

Hi John,

This list is inactive because the work done of HTML and XML localization
aspects is now done by several more official groups, mostly:

- The W3C GEO task force (http://www.w3.org/International/geo/)
- The XLIFF TC at OASIS (www.xliff.org)

Hope this helps.
-yves


-----Original Message-----
From: john snow [mailto:john@...]
Sent: Monday, January 26, 2004 5:19 AM
To: lisa-its@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [lisa-its] A bit quiet

Hello all,

I joined the group in December and was looking forward to lots of healthy
debate and good advice. Particularly around the issues of website
localization! Unfortunately it appears to be a bit quiet. Is this just a
quiet January and things will start to liven up soon?

Cheers

John Snow
Business Development Director
+44 (0) 870 990 5166

ALS Translation Service <http://www.appliedlanguage.com/> Translation
services for 140 different languages

ALS Website Translation
<http://www.appliedlanguage.com/website_translation.shtml>
Translation for all file types, formats and technology





Yahoo! Groups Links

To visit your group on the web, go to:
  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lisa-its/

To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
  lisa-its-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
  http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

Hello all,

I joined the group in December and was looking forward to lots of
healthy debate and good advice. Particularly around the issues of
website localization! Unfortunately it appears to be a bit quiet. Is
this just a quiet January and things will start to liven up soon?

Cheers

John Snow
Business Development Director
+44 (0) 870 990 5166

ALS Translation Service <http://www.appliedlanguage.com/>
Translation services for 140 different languages

ALS Website Translation
<http://www.appliedlanguage.com/website_translation.shtml>
Translation for all file types, formats and technology

Hi Yves,

This is an excellent summary. With your approval, I would like to post this info
on i18n.com because it will be very useful info for our readers.

I have entered it in the system, but not approved yet for full posting - you can
review it at http://www.i18n.com/article.pl?sid=02/09/03/1010221

If you would like me to include more (or less) contact info for you, I can
certainly edit that before posting.

Best regards,

Barry Caplan
Publisher,
www.i18n.com


At 08:18 AM 9/3/2002 -0600, you wrote:
>Hello Chris,
>
>At the conclusion of last year W3C Internationalization Workshop the various
>aspects discussed in this list were listed, among others, as possible area
>of work for a re-chartered W3C I18n Working Group. See the results at
>http://www.w3.org/2002/02/01-i18n-workshop/consensus.
>
>Since, the W3C I18n WG has been in the process of defining its new
>objectives. You can see the current progress at the following links (if you
>are a W3C member):
>http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-ac-members/2002JulSep/0014.html
>http://www.w3.org/2002/05/i18n-recharter/activity.html
>http://www.w3.org/2002/05/i18n-recharter/WG-charter.html
>http://www.w3.org/2002/05/i18n-recharter/IG-charter.html
>
>Part of the topics interesting ITS are now among the objectives of the W3C
>i18n activities. Other parts--for example a namespace similar to the
>Internationalization Support for Zope examples you mentioned--are now
>discussed in the XLIFF Technical Committee at the OASIS. See the following
>links for more information:
>http://www.oasis-open.org/committees/xliff/
>http://lists.oasis-open.org/archives/xliff/200206/msg00001.html
>http://lists.oasis-open.org/archives/xliff/200206/msg00013.html
>
>Actually that's one of the items of today's conference call.
>
>I hope this help. There are many good ideas in the examples you pointed too,
>and many are very similar to some of the ideas discussed in the XLIFF TC. It
>would be probably advantagous for evryone to harmonize common parts at some
>point.
>
>cheers,
>-yves
>
>
>
>
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Chris Croome [mailto:chris@...]
>Sent: Tue, September 03, 2002 7:26 AM
>To: lisa-its@yahoogroups.com
>Subject: [lisa-its] Zope TAL
>
>
>Hi
>
>Is this list dead or just resting?
>
>Have people come across the work that the Zope people have been doing?
>
>
>http://dev.zope.org/Wikis/DevSite/Projects/ComponentArchitecture/ZPTInternat
>ionalizationSupport
>
>Chris
>
>--
>Chris Croome                               <chris@...>
>web design                             http://www.webarchitects.co.uk/
>web content management                               http://mkdoc.com/
>everything else                               http://chris.croome.net/
>
>
>
>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
>
>
>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

Hello Chris,

At the conclusion of last year W3C Internationalization Workshop the various
aspects discussed in this list were listed, among others, as possible area
of work for a re-chartered W3C I18n Working Group. See the results at
http://www.w3.org/2002/02/01-i18n-workshop/consensus.

Since, the W3C I18n WG has been in the process of defining its new
objectives. You can see the current progress at the following links (if you
are a W3C member):
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-ac-members/2002JulSep/0014.html
http://www.w3.org/2002/05/i18n-recharter/activity.html
http://www.w3.org/2002/05/i18n-recharter/WG-charter.html
http://www.w3.org/2002/05/i18n-recharter/IG-charter.html

Part of the topics interesting ITS are now among the objectives of the W3C
i18n activities. Other parts--for example a namespace similar to the
Internationalization Support for Zope examples you mentioned--are now
discussed in the XLIFF Technical Committee at the OASIS. See the following
links for more information:
http://www.oasis-open.org/committees/xliff/
http://lists.oasis-open.org/archives/xliff/200206/msg00001.html
http://lists.oasis-open.org/archives/xliff/200206/msg00013.html

Actually that's one of the items of today's conference call.

I hope this help. There are many good ideas in the examples you pointed too,
and many are very similar to some of the ideas discussed in the XLIFF TC. It
would be probably advantagous for evryone to harmonize common parts at some
point.

cheers,
-yves






-----Original Message-----
From: Chris Croome [mailto:chris@...]
Sent: Tue, September 03, 2002 7:26 AM
To: lisa-its@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [lisa-its] Zope TAL


Hi

Is this list dead or just resting?

Have people come across the work that the Zope people have been doing?


http://dev.zope.org/Wikis/DevSite/Projects/ComponentArchitecture/ZPTInternat
ionalizationSupport

Chris

--
Chris Croome                               <chris@...>
web design                             http://www.webarchitects.co.uk/
web content management                               http://mkdoc.com/
everything else                               http://chris.croome.net/



Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

Hi Chris,

There is nothing going on in this group. You will find much interest here:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/i18n-prog

I see a lot of issues to discuss on your page, I need to finish reading them
first, though.

Best wishes,
Dave
----- Original Message -----
From: "Chris Croome" <chris@...>
To: <lisa-its@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, September 03, 2002 9:25 AM
Subject: [lisa-its] Zope TAL


> Hi
>
> Is this list dead or just resting?
>
> Have people come across the work that the Zope people have been doing?
>
>
http://dev.zope.org/Wikis/DevSite/Projects/ComponentArchitecture/ZPTInternat
ionalizationSupport
>
> Chris
>
> --
> Chris Croome                               <chris@...>
> web design                             http://www.webarchitects.co.uk/
> web content management                               http://mkdoc.com/
> everything else                               http://chris.croome.net/
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>

Hi

Is this list dead or just resting?

Have people come across the work that the Zope people have been doing?

  
http://dev.zope.org/Wikis/DevSite/Projects/ComponentArchitecture/ZPTInternationa\
lizationSupport

Chris

--
Chris Croome                               <chris@...>
web design                             http://www.webarchitects.co.uk/
web content management                               http://mkdoc.com/
everything else                               http://chris.croome.net/

Hi,
I just joined this group. It might be interesting for you to keep an
eye on the locales group here in Yahoo Groups, as well. We are also
looking at XML and the current restrictions it has for i18n and l10n.
We are trying to come up with a model to cover all locale parameters,
and not only existing ones, plus xml:lang is not enough, what else
should be added, like xml:locale. I am not sure about OSCAR, I
haven't seen much progress there either. Finding a 'home' is a big
issue everywhere, I guess.

Dave Possin
--- In lisa-its@y..., "Yves Savourel" <yves@o...> wrote:
> Hi Gustavo,
>
> You're right: not many things have happened since a while.
> The main reason is that ITS and the related efforts do not have
a 'legal
> umbrella' yet. For people to contribute to some common pool of
knowledge or
> share developments, you need some basic framework in which to work.
It's
> important to make sure any contribution is accessible to all and
stay
> accessible later on. That all IP issues are resolved and
contributions are
> made in a clear framework.
>
> The first effort of using OSCAR as the 'umbrella' was slow to
develop and
> bogged down since OSCAR wasn't made to host such thing initially.
The OSCAR
> goals and policy is currently being revised to allow initiative
such as ITS
> (and others) to truly exist. There is actually a meeting in Vienna
(this
> week I think) about this. I really hope progress can be made and
the new
> bylaws enacted at some point in the future.
> If ultimately OSCAR is not able, for a reason or another, to host
ITS, then
> we have the option to look for example at OASIS or other entities,
but here
> again, it takes time to set those things in place.
>
> I hope we'll find an official 'home' soon. Once this is done, I
hope we will
> have more contributions and we will be able to move forward
quickly. As the
> previous email mentioned, LionBridge just put its localization suite
> ForeignDesk on the public domain as open source software, this is
one more
> sign showing that common contribution in our industry is making
progress. A
> common framework would bring a lot of benefits to commercial, in-
house, and
> open-source tools. ITS is just a small part of this.
>
> best,
> -yves
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: g_hartmann2001@y... [mailto:g_hartmann2001@y...]
> Sent: Mon, November 05, 2001 10:32 AM
> To: lisa-its@y...
> Subject: [lisa-its] Current status
>
>
> Hello all,
>
>     I haven't seen any discussions on the ITS group and I wonder,
> what's the current status of proposal ? Is there anything being
> developed at all ?
>     It looks like nobody is willing to contribute with something but
> Yves and Robert. Am I missing something here ?
>
> bye,
>     Gustavo.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

Hello Yves/Tim,

>___________________________________________________________________
>
>Message: 1
>   Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2002 20:29:38 -0000
>   From: "yves_savourel" <yves@...>
>Subject: Re: Localization Directives - Working Example
>
>Although I'm a Windows developer, I can see some advantages in
>developing filters in Java. First, they would offer a better cross-
>platform support, but I think one of the main interests also reside
>in the good i18n functionality Java provides. MLANG and standard
>Windows API do offer a lot, and you can also use ICU if needed, but
>it may be less organized and consistent than the Java support
>(although Unicode support in Java needs to be updated).
>
Yves, so should I hold off doing the FilterBaseFactory classes in C++ or
will this be part of the C++ wrapper you mentioned or another section in
the architecture below. If you think it'll be easier/more portable using
Java filters I suppose I could learn to deal with it.

>+-----------------------+
>|    Java filter(s)     | =====> Java apps
>| +-------------------+ |
>| |  Filter interface | |<-+
>| +-------------------+ |  |
>+-----------------------+  |
>                           |
>+-----------------------+  |
>| +-------------------+ |  |
>| |    JNI Layer      | |<-+
>| +-------------------+ | =====> C++ apps
>|      C++ wrapper      |<-+     (not using COM)
>+-----------------------+  |
>                           |
>+-----------------------+  |
>|     COM interface     |<-+
>+-----------------------+ =====> COM apps
>
>________________________________________________________________________
>
>Message: 4
>   Date: 22 Jan 2002 10:15:03 +0000
>   From: Tim Foster <tim.foster@...>
>Subject: Re: Re: Localization Directives - Working Example
>
>
>Hi All,
>
>I'll keep it short - I promise. I'm not going to get into a
>comp.lang.misc my impl. language is bigger/ better/ faster/ smaller/
>slower/ more efficient/ more elegant/ easier to type /etc. than yours.
>There are other places on the internet for that !
>
Sorry Tim, it wasn't my intent to get into a language war, I'm genuinely
interested in all the various aspects. I use many languages which one
depends on the task I'm presented with. Thanks for all the feedback/info.

>Also, fwiw, SGI appear to have a jdk at
>http://www.sgi.com/developers/devtools/languages/java2_131.html
>
Found it, thanks for the link. Is there a comprehensive list on
java.sun.com of supported platforms?? I looked for Availability but only
came up with the section I mentioned previously which didn't list SGI.
Come to think of it IBM has to have a port as well.

Thanks again,

John

Hi All,

I'll keep it short - I promise. I'm not going to get into a
comp.lang.misc my impl. language is bigger/ better/ faster/ smaller/
slower/ more efficient/ more elegant/ easier to type /etc. than yours.
There are other places on the internet for that !


On Mon, 2002-01-21 at 20:29, yves_savourel wrote:
> Although I'm a Windows developer, I can see some advantages in
> developing filters in Java. First, they would offer a better cross-
> platform support, but I think one of the main interests also reside
> in the good i18n functionality Java provides.

Yep. Strings are in unicode by default, - they're read from the native
filesystem under the default encoding (or a programmer supplied one) and
converted for you. There's further nice support in jdk1.4 for other
character conversion (should you need it - see the java.nio.charset
package) There is java locales too, which would also help the cross
platform nature of Okapi.

> This said, I think the callers of filters are often developed for a
> single platform (often Windows), and when it comes to GUI
> applications Java -from my modest experience- seems to be 'a little
> behind'.

I agree (for the moment). John Wicks was claiming that in his
experience, Eclipse was slow - I claimed it wasn't fair comparing a
"heavyweigh gui" to a file parsing library. By that I mean, that IDEs
are quite a test of system resources. (we don't all have our windowing
systems built into our kernels) Just because the gui is slow, it doesn't
mean that the rest of the platform is slow.

Also, fwiw, SGI appear to have a jdk at
http://www.sgi.com/developers/devtools/languages/java2_131.html

Java is not always going to be slower than native code.

Javacc is similar to a combination of lex/yacc - it's a compiler
compiler which produces .java classes (not native code) Using such tools
is usually more efficient (and bug-free) than hand-coding a parser. It
was originally developed in SunLabs, and has since moved to Metamata
(now Webgain) http://www.webgain.com/products/java_cc/ Antlr is also
worth checking out, so I'm told http://www.antlr.org/ - I haven't had
time to play with it


Re. cross platform java - you *can* write truely cross-platform java if
you do it properly. (yes you can write non portable java also). That
said, you can write cross-platform c/c++ too - the only thing
outstanding is that you need to provide the source for the c/c++ in
order to get it to run on a different platform and the user needs to
recompile that source.

> Overall we should have a way to access Java filters from Windows
> applications and it could be done as follow:

<...>

> All this obviously doesn't prevent to write filters in C++ if it is
> your preference: the important part is to have a common interface so
> layers for interoperability can be also constructed and re-used.

This sounds excellent to me. If I could write filters to an interface in
Java, that would be good enough for me. I will maintain that Java is the
right way to go, but that said, by all means continue to use other
languages if they suit particular applications more.

	 cheers,

		 tim

Hello Group/Tim,

>> What happens if I want to run the code on an SGI system ? Or MacOS X, or
>> (etc. etc.) will the c++ source code for the filters always be available
>> and guaranteed to port from system to system ? How many translators have
>> compilers installed  ? :-)
>
Just one other note, according to the docs over at Sun, the J2SE HotSpot
VM is only supported on the following platforms..

Solaris Operating Environment (SPARC Platform Edition)
Solaris Operating Environment (Intel Architecture Edition)
Linux operating system for the Intel Architecture platform
Microsoft Windows 95, 98, 2000, and NT 4.0 for the Intel Architecture
platform

In addition, Java HotSpot technology is also available from:

Hewlett-Packard, which licenses the Java 2 Platform, Standard Edition
and includes Java HotSpot technology as part of their HP-UX OS for HP
9000 PA-RISC systems

Apple, which ships the Java HotSpot Client VM v1.3.1 as part of their
Mac OS X

So what about SGI ??  Is it supported by a Silicon Graphics version ??
This where Java looses me, what platforms are truly supported for the
complete implementation ?? If it's just Solaris, Linux, Windows and Mac
then where's the real portability claim or did I miss some docs.

John

Hello Group/Tim,

>________________________________________________________________________
>
>Message: 2
>   Date: 21 Jan 2002 11:26:09 +0000
>   From: Tim Foster <tim.foster@...>
>Subject: Re: Localization Directives - Working Example
>
>Hi All,
>
>On Sun, 2002-01-20 at 05:24, John Wm. Wicks wrote:
>
>>Yes but Java has it's own limitations, performance is still it's weakest
>>link. I've used a Java based IDE called Eclipse and it's unacceptably
>>slow on my Pentium 450. Since the primary role of this interface is
>>filtering and parsing I'd hate to see it bogged down by the overhead of
>>a completely Java implementation.
>>
>
>Swing is still the slowest part of java I believe, so comparing a
>heavyweight gui app to a file parsing library isn't fair. Along with
>that, j2se 1.4 brings noticable performance improvements.
>
Heavyweight ?? It's the minimal functional IDE.

>
>See also :
>http://www.javaworld.com/javaworld/jw-02-1998/jw-02-jperf.html
>(this is quite old - things have improved since then)
>
>We're using java for our internal parsing needs, and it's very fast
>indeed. (our localisation filters are implemented using javacc) and
>there's all the gains of using java and a decent compiler compiler : see
>attached BNF generated for us by javacc.
>
But it's always going to be slower than a C++ solution correct or no.
I'm not all that familiar with the javacc or Java for that matter, is
this a native compilation ?? Do you still need JVM ?? If it is native
compilation, i.e. a standalone Win32 executable then what's the
difference between this an a C++ solution. So say Okapi is implemented
as a pure Java solution if I write a native Win32 application in C++ how
do I use the Java filters ?? JNI, RMI, Java IDL. On a Windows platform
we'd use the COM based interface by passing Java altogether since it's
not needed. If say another individual develops a Java UI client they'd
use the Java Okapi API interface, COM would probably drop out of the
picture for a shared library solution.

>
>I would maintain that using components across architectures is easier
>without the overhead of JNI (it is a bit of a pain to program) - and to
>simply implement in plain java. This way, the creator of the component
>doesn't have to worry about which architecture they need to target their
>code to - it just works.
>
Maybe I'm alittle rusty and things may have changed somewhat but you
still have to debug on all platforms correct. My experience with Java in
the past involved writing/rewriting classes because the functionality
across JVM's wasn't consistent. No I wasn't using any MS specific
extensions.

>
>What happens if I want to run the code on an SGI system ? Or MacOS X, or
>(etc. etc.) will the c++ source code for the filters always be available
>and guaranteed to port from system to system ? How many translators have
>compilers installed  ? :-)
>
Well C++ can be compiled on all these platforms very nicely. I believe
the porting will be part of the Okapi tasks and the source is freely
available via SourceForge so unless they die out it should be there for
some time. Yves would know more about the "future" of Okapi than I though.

>
>Of couse, you may still want to use COM, in which case, a single JNI
>wrapper for the java classes would be the right approach, but in
>general, JNI accesses should be as few as possible.
>
And mind you I'm not saying that COM itself hasn't been ported to other
platforms, Sun, I think, purchased Chilisoft's ASP implementation of it
and its available for the Linux platform, Groove uses COM and it
supports Linux/Mac/Windows. COM just happens to be how Okapi exposes the
API interface to C++/Windows developers currently, it could just as
easily been exposed as a CORBA interface. You see what we're getting at,
Okapi could expose the API in pure C if need be. If you use a pure Java
implementation somewhere along the line every application that uses the
API has to have Java installed whether they needed Java for the rest of
the application or not.

>
>You may have gathered, this is a somewhat pro-Java stance, but I make no
>apologies for where my loyalties lie - I truely believe this is the way
>things should be.
>
Believe me I really wanted to use the Eclipse platform for an
application suite I'm developing so I don't mind the pro-Java stance I
'm just being realistic about all aspects and from my experience the
"write once, run everywhere" mantra just didn't work out that way. As I
said things may have changed somewhat but I make no apologies for my
past experience(s).

This is an interesting thread, I look forward to your replies...

John

Although I'm a Windows developer, I can see some advantages in
developing filters in Java. First, they would offer a better cross-
platform support, but I think one of the main interests also reside
in the good i18n functionality Java provides. MLANG and standard
Windows API do offer a lot, and you can also use ICU if needed, but
it may be less organized and consistent than the Java support
(although Unicode support in Java needs to be updated).

This said, I think the callers of filters are often developed for a
single platform (often Windows), and when it comes to GUI
applications Java -from my modest experience- seems to be 'a little
behind'.

Overall we should have a way to access Java filters from Windows
applications and it could be done as follow:

- Java filters implement a filter interface Java class.
- A JNI layer, wrapped in a C++ class, allows you to access the Java
   interface from C++. A single class is enough to access any filter.
- A thin COM layer wraps the C++ class and allows any COM-enable
   application to also access the filters.

or, in image:

+-----------------------+
|    Java filter(s)     | =====> Java apps
| +-------------------+ |
| |  Filter interface | |<-+
| +-------------------+ |  |
+-----------------------+  |
                            |
+-----------------------+  |
| +-------------------+ |  |
| |    JNI Layer      | |<-+
| +-------------------+ | =====> C++ apps
|      C++ wrapper      |<-+     (not using COM)
+-----------------------+  |
                            |
+-----------------------+  |
|     COM interface     |<-+
+-----------------------+ =====> COM apps


There is a price to this interoperability: The JNI layer has some
overhead in passing parameters (especially strings), but hopefully
this won't be to noticeable especially for high-level calls where the
calls are not numerous anyways.

There are also a number of issues (for example: how to use callback
in such architecture) that also need to be addressed, but they should
be resolved anyway to make C++ implementations be flexible.

I've done some experimentations this week-end: JNI lacks of good
documentation and is definitively 'unsavory' to program with, but it
seems to do the job. I've looked at other alternatives: cxxwrap, CNI,
SWIG, etc. but most of them are to call C++ from Java, not the
reverse.

Okapi would provide:
- the Java interface class
- the JNI/C++ class wrapper
- the COM object that wraps the JNI/C++ class

All this obviously doesn't prevent to write filters in C++ if it is
your preference: the important part is to have a common interface so
layers for interoperability can be also constructed and re-used.

Cheers,
-yves

> Yes but Java has it's own limitations, performance is still it's weakest 
> link. I've used a Java based IDE called Eclipse and it's unacceptably 
> slow on my Pentium 450. Since the primary role of this interface is 
> filtering and parsing I'd hate to see it bogged down by the overhead of 
> a completely Java implementation.

> >
> >On Fri, 2002-01-18 at 13:09, Yves Savourel wrote:
> >
> >>>Most interesting Yves - I've read through the Okapi docs and it sounds
> >>>like a great project. Have you given any thought towards a Java-based
> >>>version ?
> >>>
> John
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ 
> 
> 

BNF for PropsFileParser.jj

NON-TERMINALS