lobsterclaw : Message: RE: [lobsterclaw] Heliconia bourgaeana...or champneiana?

Hi Luc--

You must have a lot of land to have 300 fruit trees! Do you sell your harvests at market? I can’t imagine anyone being able to consume the product of that many trees! But you have a great climate for that. Unfortunately here we have some frosts and freezes in winter and so I am very limited, but I am growing the tropical-looking paw-paw (North American relative of the Cherimoya and Guanábana, with an exotic taste, and it looks almost like a cacao tree), also Casimiroa edulis is doing well here, and of course Feijoa, Eriobotrya, various citrus and the usual hardier subtropical fruits. I grow many banana varieties but find myself torn between where to plant (or remove) bananas to make room for the heliconias…

The ‘Orange Gyro’ does handle full sun (and really must have it to bloom quickly), but a few of the leaves that have received 35+ celsius temperatures with no clouds all afternoon have shown some scorch. Not a huge amount, but I have noticed that ‘red-yellow’ and ‘Distans’ have better-looking foliage than ‘Orange Gyro’ in full sun. They have more erect leaves whereas some of the Orange Gyro leaves lay out horizontally, especially the new ones, and these are the ones that can be burned but only in a heat-wave. The clump still looks good overall even though it’s in full, beating sun. I had one in the shade of a Caesalpinia tree only ten feet from the full-sun clump, and it has returned slowly each spring, much slower than the specimen in full fun. In full sun a new shoot can emerge and be up and blooming within a few months. It’s really very amazing and I’m glad to have such a weed J

‘Mexican Gold’ is quite slow so far for me, small and squat in habit, it leans out quite a bit. This is its first year and I’m just hoping it will throw a bloom before November. I think that its (hybrid) child, ‘Coral Surprise,’ is much more vigorous, and though it also has had a few scorched leaves (again, usually just some new leaves), it is twice the height with thicker stems, etc.

I would love to try to germinate some H. moorei if you have a few extra seeds. I’ll send you my info separately in case you are able to send me a few. Thank you!

Do you grow mathiasae? I killed one last summer but will try again. I saw some at Fairchild last week in Miami and they were very beautiful, they are quite zingiberoid in habit and theirs appeared to be in about half-shade. Very vigorous and looks to me rather like a clump of Alpinia ginger with a heliconia inflorescence at the top of each stem!

Thanks,

Michael

From: lobsterclaw@yahoogroups.com [mailto:lobsterclaw@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of luc vleeracker
Sent: Wednesday, July 01, 2009 9:42 PM
To: lobsterclaw@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [lobsterclaw] Heliconia bourgaeana...or champneiana?

Michael , that particular gold was planted right next to the blood ...since I have a lot of hummingbirds I was kind of hoping to end up with another color ( from the seeds )....it just declined little by little ...blanched leaves etc...it never bloomed btw.

The problem is that I also have a big collection of rare exotic fruit ( 300 + trees ) so I could not keep an eye on everything and since I still had more golds in nurserybag I just made a note to plant the others in more shade...the blood is still doing well so I guess it must have been too much sun.

I am surprised that the Orange Gyro ( latispatha right..! ) doesn't handle your full sun very well , here it is the most common and considered a weed...

Now that I thing about it , the Mexican gold you mention , I started this one from seed from Sherry because I have never seen a pure yellow Latispatha.....is that how it is ?

If you are into growing from seed , this is your last chance till next year for the rare H. mooreana , I collected the last seeds today ...I'll be happy to send you some . Can handle below 10 celsius , but needs some shade and water.

I agree with your findings about those with zingiberoid leaves , I moved them all in the shade ( after loosing a few )

Take care.

Luc

--- On Wed, 7/1/09, Michael Norell <michaelnorell@...> wrote:

From: Michael Norell <michaelnorell@...>
Subject: RE: [lobsterclaw] Heliconia bourgaeana...or champneiana?
To: lobsterclaw@yahoogroups.com
Date: Wednesday, July 1, 2009, 8:47 PM

Luc—

I think in one way the sun for both you and for me is the same…muy fuerte!! I think you’re in Puerto Vallarta? Such a beautiful place…and if I remember correctly, back in the ‘90s there were beautiful heliconias growing at Le Bistro restaurant on the Isla Rio Cuale. I also remember going for a walk in P.V. in May in the middle of the day, I really learned how hot the Mexican sun can be!!! Our summer days are longer at this latitude (31.5N) and right here in Natchez, 100 miles or so inland, we actually have more sun and less cloud-cover in summer than there is closer to the coast of the Gulf of Mexico (for example, in New Orleans). Also much less predictable rain in June/July.

Did you find that your gold form of champneiana was actually scorching or burning around the edges? Or was it that the sun faded the inflorescences? Again, the specimen I have may or may not be a seedling of the gold form, the company in Hawai’i from which I purchased it seemed to be very unsure about many of their plants, they told me it was a yellow form but I would not be surprised if it turns out to be a red type.

I am actually very surprised that almost all the heliconias I have planted have rather successfully avoided scorching by folding or rolling their leaves during the most intense part of the day, and look just fine. I’ve had problems with H. hirsuta burning if it gets sun all afternoon, it can handle some midday sun but with more than a couple of hours they start to burn. I wonder if this isn’t a typical problem with the zingiberoid types, as the leaf-blades may perhaps be more difficult to fold? I’ve also had a few scorched leaves on ‘Coral Surprise,’ ‘Mexican Gold,’ and ‘Orange Gyro,’ they seem sometimes unable to roll their newest leaves to avoid the sun. H. rostrata, of which I have the ‘5-day’ and also ‘R-1’ cultivars, are particularly able to handle the sun without any damage here. That really surprised me. Also orthotricha ‘Edge of Night,’ ‘Oriole Orange,’ ‘rauliniana,’ lingulata, mutisiana, subulata, ‘plagiotropa,’ wagneriana ‘Pumpkin,’ ‘Pedro Ortiz,’ ‘Yellow Dancer,’ ‘Yellow Parrot,’ latispatha ‘Distans’ and ‘Red-Yellow Gyro’ all handle full midday and afternoon sun with little or no problem. Today it was 98 degrees Fahrenheit here!!!

All Best,

Michael

From: lobsterclaw@ yahoogroups. com [mailto:lobsterclaw @yahoogroups. com] On Behalf Of luc vleeracker
Sent: Wednesday, July 01, 2009 9:23 AM
To: lobsterclaw@ yahoogroups. com
Subject: RE: [lobsterclaw] Heliconia bourgaeana.. .or champneiana?

Michael , I am not a scientist , just collecting , I think the intensity of the sunlight is different here.... I could be wrong...

Luc
--- On Wed, 7/1/09, Michael Norell <michaelnorell@ nerostudios. com> wrote:

From: Michael Norell <michaelnorell@ nerostudios. com>
Subject: RE: [lobsterclaw] Heliconia bourgaeana.. .or champneiana?
To: lobsterclaw@ yahoogroups. com
Date: Wednesday, July 1, 2009, 9:16 AM

Hi Bráulio—

That’s interesting to hear that a ‘Gold’ form is growing wild in Chiapas, as I don’t think that area has been listed in its normal distribution area to date? In Berry & Kress I found only ‘Maya Blood’ listed as occurring in southern Mexico, the ‘Gold’ and ‘Splash’ forms from Belize/Guatemala/ Honduras.

John Goss, my source for the ‘Maya Red’ hybrid, sent me a picture he took of an immature inflorescence he received from the original hybridizer in Costa Rica, taken back when John had these rhizomes for sale:

Again, it is supposedly a hybrid of ‘Maya Blood’ and ‘Splash.’

Interesting that both you and Luc say the gold form is sensitive to too much sun, as both this hybrid and my “yellow form” (I assume ‘Maya Gold’) seedling do fine in hot, hot full sun, they actually are among the few that didn’t show any scorching from our horrible heat-wave of the last few weeks (temps as high as 98F/36C with virtually no cloud cover). My (supposedly) yellow-form seedling does have much lighter green foliage than the ‘Maya Red’ but for whatever reason it appears to be very happy where it is. But it sounds as though these may be purely seasonal bloomers (spring) and therefore ultimately unsuitable for my climate even though they have returned from the winter cold, as they probably need to go through a winter with their stems above-ground to produce an inflorescence…and perhaps impossible to coax a bloom from these in autumn even if they have attained a large size with lots of sun, water and fertilizer. Since bourgaeana is listed by many sources as an all-year bloomer, and as many here have stated they strongly think it to be a separate species from champneiana for the various reasons you all noted, I’m going to proceed with my own trials here assuming they are separate and potentially quite different in behavior and origin. H. bourgaeana, which has survived the winter here at rhizome-level despite some abuse and bad placement, sounds ultimately more promising for my climate due to its year-round blooming habit. I just wonder on what basis the folks at Kew and Tropicos based their rejection of champneiana as a valid species-name. Oh, the joys of plant nomenclature!

Thanks again to you, Luc and everyone else for all the info.

All Best,

Michael

From: lobsterclaw@ yahoogroups. com [mailto:lobsterclaw @yahoogroups. com] On Behalf Of Bráulio A. Santos
Sent: Tuesday, June 30, 2009 6:27 PM
To: lobsterclaw@ yahoogroups. com
Subject: RE: [lobsterclaw] Heliconia bourgaeana.. .or champneiana?

Hi Michael,

The information I have agrees with Luc´s one, despite the differences in climate conditions from the South of Chiapas to Jalisco (he lives there if I am not mistaken). In the South of Chiapas, climate is typically humid and hot, it is a classical tropical rain forest, with two seasons: dry and wet. Annual rainfall is about 3000 mm, with <60 mm/mo from Frebuary-April and >200 mm/mo from May-October. Temperature also decreases in the driest months, and here is when aurantiaca blooms (peak in February-Marzo) .

I don´t know if Gold is a widespread variety in the state of Chiapas because my experience is restricted only to the region of Chajul. There, Gold are very rare, I know no more than 15 plants, all naturally clumped in 40 x 40 m. Again I agree with Luc, I think they don´t like full sun like collinsiana, latispatha or wagneriana. Too much shade are not welcome either. At the most preserved tract of forest, where much shade is the rule, only aurantiaca blooms without problem.

About the botanical nomenclature of champneiana vs bourgeana, I have no idea. What I know, based on the guide by Berry and Kress, is that all Maya series are cultivars (abbreviated cv.) of the same species Heliconia champneiana.

Abraços,

Bráulio.

De: lobsterclaw@ yahoogroups. com [mailto:lobsterclaw @yahoogroups. com] En nombre de luc vleeracker
Enviado el: martes, 30 de junio de 2009 10:01 a.m.
Para: lobsterclaw@ yahoogroups. com
Asunto: RE: [lobsterclaw] Heliconia bourgaeana.. .or champneiana?

I noticed that the Maya gold doesn't like full sun , I had the blood and gold planted next to each other and had to move the gold to a shaded location.

Auriantica here also blooms in winter , is in seed now , 300 meter above sealevel .

Luc

--- On Mon, 6/29/09, Michael Norell <michaelnorell@ nerostudios. com> wrote:

From: Michael Norell <michaelnorell@ nerostudios. com>
Subject: RE: [lobsterclaw] Heliconia bourgaeana.. .or champneiana?
To: lobsterclaw@ yahoogroups. com
Date: Monday, June 29, 2009, 11:55 PM

Thanks Bráulio, and also everyone else for the information…I’m still very confused about the bourgaeana vs. champneiana issue, but I’ll just assume they’re different and grow and observe them myself in regards to cold-hardiness and bloom-period, which are the paramount issues for me. Is ‘Maya Gold’ a widespread regional variety in Chiapas? That is certainly a very beautiful photo you provided. I wasn’t aware that this was a provenance issue, I assumed that the ‘Maya’ series were mutations or chance seedling variations on the pure species of champneiana. I am told by my source in Florida that ‘Maya Red’ came from a Costa Rican source and was a seedling mutation, supposedly a hybrid of ‘Maya Blood’ and ‘Splash.’ It is not documented anywhere apparently, and he is trying to locate photos of the inflorescence on this type. Both ‘Maya Red’ and my yellow-form seedling (from Pacific Tropical Gardens in Hawai’i) survived the winter here, returned with some vigor and are growing well, but as I mentioned earlier, neither have attained blooming size as of yet. I saw a mature champneiana in bloom at Fairchild last week and it was an absolutely huge plant growing in a good deal of shade, my plants are in full blazing sun and are much, much more compact, at least at present.

Bráulio, have you ever seen H. aurantiaca bloom at any time other than winter? I have always thought of this as a winter bloomer, and though mine consistently returns from the roots each spring, it has remained quite tiny and I assume I’ll never see blooms, as we have occasional frosts and freezes here that cut all heliconias to the ground. My small specimen is a poor grower here for me so far, a little bit better every year but still rather slow with tiny foliage. I wonder if it requires a higher elevation and cooler nights to grow and bloom well?

Michael Norell

From: lobsterclaw@ yahoogroups. com [mailto:lobsterclaw @yahoogroups. com] On Behalf Of Bráulio A. Santos
Sent: Monday, June 29, 2009 11:15 AM
To: lobsterclaw@ yahoogroups. com
Subject: RE: [lobsterclaw] Heliconia bourgaeana.. .or champneiana? [1 Attachment]

[Attachment(s) from =?iso-8859-1? Q?Br=E1ulio_ A._Santos? = included below]

Hi Michael,

H. champneiana cv. Maya Gold is now blooming in natural conditions in the region of Chajul (150 m a.s.l.), Chiapas, Southern Mexico (see photo). The inflorescences are with almost all bracts expanded. As they were not blooming in March I estimate blooming start for april-may. I´m not sure if it shoots and blooms in a single season (H. aurantiaca in the same region and conditions does it), but I think yes. H. bourgaeana does not occur in this region.

Bests,

Bráulio.

De: lobsterclaw@ yahoogroups. com [mailto:lobsterclaw @yahoogroups. com] En nombre de Michael Norell
Enviado el: domingo, 28 de junio de 2009 03:21 p.m.
Para: lobsterclaw@ yahoogroups. com
Asunto: [lobsterclaw] Heliconia bourgaeana.. .or champneiana?

Hello all—

I just noticed on Tropicos and also on Kew’s monocot checklist, that H. champneiana is now considered by them a defunct name and has been placed into synonymy with H. bourgaeana. I’ve never heard this before, and of course champneiana is still used all over the place, even on the Heliconia registry. Does anyone have any experience with these (formerly) two species and perhaps could shed some light on differences in the plant typically sold as bourgaena vs. the various champneianas, including the ‘Maya’ series? I have a small bourgaeana and also a champneiana yellow-form seedling and a ‘Maya Red’…none of which have yet bloomed, so I’m unable to do much of a comparison here. Since I’m doing cold-hardiness/ blooming trials here it would be a great help if anyone can reveal something on whether these were two disjunct provenances that were lumped, or whether it’s just the same exact thing in most respects including habitat/range.

Tropicos lists for the old H. champneiana (Griggs) specimens from Belize, Guatemala, Honduras, Nicaragua, from 50-800m elevation.

For H. bourgaeana they list Belize, Guatemala, Honduras (and not Nicaragua), but also Mexico (Chiapas/Puebla/ Tabasco/Veracruz )…5m-700m elevation.

Thanks in advance for any info anyone may have on this…and also any bloom-speed/ seasonality info on these, particularly if anyone’s observed shoot-to-bloom in a single season (e.g., spring emergence, fall bloom).

Michael Norell
Natchez, Mississippi (zone 9a)