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Last December, I threatened that some clearly comatose SIGs would be
terminated unless they showed some new signs of life.

Some SIGs did show signs of life, or at least put up some resistance.
However, the following SIGs are still comatose.  I will terminate
these within a week unless I receive strong objections.

	 locator-sig
	 pattern-sig
	 progenv-sig
	 web-sig

I looked at recent traffic, and decided that the plot-sig may still
have some life in it; the objc-sig clearly has some life, and for the
the C++-sig and thread-sig, the SIG owners have requested additional
time.  These SIGs (and all others except for the meta-sig) will be
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The archives for the terminated sigs will remain accessible; they will
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administrivia

Paul Everitt <paul@...> wrote:
<about the locator; here are my reactions>
>1) Centralized or distributed?

	 Centralized; there aren't that many Python modules, and new
ones don't show up every day.  A distributed system will be more
complex.

>2) Anyone can enter data, many can enter but data must be reviewed, or
>only one/several can enter data?

	 Anyone, initially.

>4) Is this a module registry, or should we also try to track authors,
>documents, or other artifacts?

	 Stick to modules initially; there are already Web pages at
python.org listing documents, & new documentation is even more rare
than new code.

>8) Is browsing (as opposed to searching) desirable?

	 Yes.  We want something that can produce a large text file,
for inclusion on CD-ROMs, posting to news.answers, etc.

>9) Are we trying to do value-added things, e.g. confirm that the author
>exists, weed out entries that get stale, etc.?

	 No; again, the volume doesn't warrant the programming effort involved.

>As for the schema, I propose the Linux Software Map as a starting point.

	 Good idea; the LSM has been discussed before on this SIG.

	 In general, simplify, simplify!  Better to start small...


	 Andrew Kuchling
	 amk@...
	 http://starship.skyport.net/crew/amk/

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Anthony Baxter wrote:
> call me wierd, but I'd like to see an LDAP-visible view of this stuff.

OK, I'll bite -- YOU'RE WEIRD!  Just kidding, sounds like a cool idea.
I tinkered with the RPMs from Critical Angle, never got too far.
Couldn't get it to import my LDIF stuff.  Worst part is I remember
someone posting an LDAP module but I can't find it in DejaNews,
FindMail, or Guido's InfoSeek indices.

Yep, need a module registry!

What good clients exist for browsing LDAP?  I found a crummy Windows one
called WAX500.  Netscapes address book think suxxxx.

> Everything we're storing could be done as attribute:value pairs - if we
> spec up the schema like this, twould be easy(ish) to export it as LDAP,
> as well as web.

Right, talking implementation is fun, but writing requirements and
deciding a schema is harder.  I'd like to see, as a first cut, everyone
agree to the format and then compile a tab-delimited file of all the
stuff on python.org.

> advantages of this? It means that you can write tools to access this data,
> and use filters automatically (rather than parsing a web page, yuk :) - it
> also makes mirroring it easier...

Right.  Once it is data, it is much easier to write HTML, LDIF, dBase,
RDB, XML, ...

Here are some requirements questions:

1) Centralized or distributed?
2) Anyone can enter data, many can enter but data must be reviewed, or
only one/several can enter data?
3) Authoritative data online or fed into an online system?
4) Is this a module registry, or should we also try to track authors,
documents, or other artifacts?
5) Should authors be able to edit their entries?
6) Are we going to try to do classification, e.g. put entries into
pigeonholes?  If so, is there an authoritative list of classifications
or can anyone choose their own?
7) Is a full-text index desirable?
8) Is browsing (as opposed to searching) desirable?
9) Are we trying to do value-added things, e.g. confirm that the author
exists, weed out entries that get stale, etc.?

As for the schema, I propose the Linux Software Map as a starting point.

--Paul

--
Paul Everitt       Digital Creations
paul@...  540.371.6909
## Python is my favorite language ##
##     http://www.python.org/     ##

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call me wierd, but I'd like to see an LDAP-visible view of this stuff.

Everything we're storing could be done as attribute:value pairs - if we
spec up the schema like this, twould be easy(ish) to export it as LDAP,
as well as web.

advantages of this? It means that you can write tools to access this data,
and use filters automatically (rather than parsing a web page, yuk :) - it
also makes mirroring it easier...

Anthony

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>I've had hopes of getting a Principia-based answer to a module
>registry.  Besides the benefits listed below, one main one is that we
>have "keyword views".  That is, a field in a record can contain multiple
>keywords, allowing an entry to appear in multiple locations in a
>hierarchy.

	 Well, if we in the Python community have one fault, it's that
we're willing to wait forever for an optimal solution, rather than
making a quick not-so-optimal solution that can be readily improved.
(Witness the locator-SIG's long history of successive partial attempts
that subsequently get abandoned.)  So I'm perfectly happy to continue
entering things into the PyModules faqwiz setup, and if/when when the
Principia-based system becomes available, we can fairly easily import
the data manually or with a hand-hacked conversion script.

	 In the meantime, we can try to add any sections that are
required, and otherwise experiment with the classification scheme.


	 Andrew Kuchling
	 amk@...
	 http://starship.skyport.net/crew/amk/

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Andrew Kuchling wrote:
> I can think of the following unclassifiable modules, off-hand:

I've had hopes of getting a Principia-based answer to a module
registry.  Besides the benefits listed below, one main one is that we
have "keyword views".  That is, a field in a record can contain multiple
keywords, allowing an entry to appear in multiple locations in a
hierarchy.

Some benefits of this system:

1) Multiple views of the database (hierarchical, keyword, etc.)
2) Full-text index.
3) Multiple administrators without need for shell logins.
4) High-speed object oriented, multiple version database with undo and
private sessions, integrated user database.
5) Data fed from external database (in this case, an tab-delimited file)
via HTTP file upload or allow modification via on-line forms.

Some cons:
1) Based on Principia (read: non-free) software licensed for use by the
PSA.
2) Loss of some of the diff capabilities of the faqwizard.

Some other thoughts/issues:
1) As I was getting cranked up on this again about two weeks ago, I
revisited the issue of a schema.  I went back and looked at the IAFA
RFC, then looked at how the LSM folks took a subset.  Never came to any
firm conclusions, except thinking that LSM was better because it was
less.

2) One thing that I liked about IAFA vs. LSM, though, was that it could
cover people and documents as well as software.

3) Another consideration is centralized vs. distributed.  The way ALIWEB
works is that people register an index of software at their local site.
The index is a URL that contains templates describing what they've
done.  A crawler comes around, picks up changes, and indexes them.
Also, the LSM is geared towards getting input via email.

4) Thus, it would be interesting to see the requirements of a module
registry.

I'll try to get a URL ready in the next day or two.  If anyone is
interested in what this would look like, drop me a line.  I don't want
to post the URL to the SIG because it will get archived, indexed, and
haunt me for the next million years :^)

--Paul

--
Paul Everitt       Digital Creations
paul@...  540.371.6909
## Python is my favorite language ##
##     http://www.python.org/     ##

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>    I had a similar problem... My GD library wrapper really belongs in
>some sort of Graphics section - but since it's really only used for Web
>stuff, I put it there...

	 Hmmm... I've also used it as a quick-and-dirty image
manipulation tool.  PIL would fit under the same question, and it's
certainly usable for more than just Web stuff.  A Graphics section
(for PyOpenGL and other stuff) is probably advised.

I can think of the following unclassifiable modules, off-hand:

	 * zlib (I put it in Text manipulation, somewhat arbitrarily)

	 * SSLeay (should go wherever socket stuff such as Medusa,
etc., will go)

	 * SANE, a Unix scanning API (Graphics)

	 * The ncurses module (Unix-specific section, maybe?)

	 * The calendrical modules being discussed in the DB-SIG (Data
Structures, I'd think, though it's a toss-up whether to put them in
Mathematical or non-math.)


	 Andrew Kuchling
	 amk@...
	 http://starship.skyport.net/crew/amk/

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[set to locator-sig for discussion]

Andrew Kuchling wrote:
> "aaron watters" <aaron_watters@...> wrote:
> >Please add entries to the Python modules FAQ wizard
> >I set up on starship (too easily!) using Guido's faqwiz.py.
>
>  An excellent idea, Aaron!  This is probably the easiest way to
> make the long-desired module registry a reality.

     Yes, Aaron rulez! :)


>  I'm not terribly familiar with faqwiz.py; how difficult is it
> to move entries from one section to another?  My concern is if I put
> an entry in the wrong section; how easy is it to fix?  (For example,
> I'm not sure where socket programming will go: distributed
> programming seems the best fit.)

     I had a similar problem... My GD library wrapper really belongs in
some sort of Graphics section - but since it's really only used for Web
stuff, I put it there...


>  And, where should we discuss the modules FAQ wizard?  Here on
> PSA-Members, or on the otherwise comatose locator SIG?

     I've already moved the discussion over with no PSA-members CC.
Hopefully that will start things off the right way...


        Richard



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  #2.  If you don't, continue advertising until you do.  Once you=
  have received 100 or more orders for REPORT #2, YOU CAN RELAX,=
  because the system is already working for you, and the cash will=
  continue to roll in!

THIS IS IMPORTANT TO REMEMBER:

Every time your name is moved down on the list, you are placed in=
  front of a DIFFERENT report.  You can KEEP TRACK of your=
  PROGRESS by watching which report people are ordering from you. =
  If you want to generate more income, send another batch of=
  e-mails and start the whole process again!  There is no limit to=
  the income you will generate from this business!

NOTE:  If you need help with starting a business, registering a=
  business name,                  how income tax is handled, etc.,=
  contact your local office of the Small Business Administration=
  (a Federal agency) for free help and answers to questions. Also,=
  the Internal Revenue Service offers free help via telephone and=
  free seminars about business taxes.

*******T  E  S  T  I  M  O  N  I  A  L  S*******

      This program does work, but you must follow it EXACTLY! =
  Especially the rule of not trying to place your name in a=
  different position, it won't work and you'll lose a lot of=
  potential income.  I'm living proof that it works.  It really is=
  a great opportunity to make relatively easy money, with little=
  cost to you.  If you do choose to participate, follow the=
  program exactly, and you'll be on your way to financial=
  security.
           Sean McLaughlin, Jackson, MS

      My name is Frank. My wife, Doris, and I live in Bel-Air, MD.=
  I am a cost accountant with a major U.S. Corporation and I make=
  pretty good money. When I received the program I grumbled to=
  Doris about receiving "junk mail." I made fun of the whole=
  thing, spouting my knowledge of the population and percentages=
  involved.  I "knew" it wouldn't work. Doris totally ignored my=
  supposed intelligence and jumped in with both feet. I made=
  merciless fun of her, and was ready to lay the old "I told you=
  so" on her when the thing didn't work... well, the laugh was on=
  me!  Within two weeks she had received over 50 responses. Within=
  45 days she had received over $147,200 in $5 bills! I was=
  shocked!  I was sure that I had it all figured and that it=
  wouldn't work.  I AM a believer now. I have joined Doris in her=
  "hobby."   I did have seven more years until retirement, but I=
  think of the "rat race" and it's not for me. We owe it all to=
  MLM.
            Frank T., Bel-Air, MD

     I just want to pass along my best wishes and encouragement to=
  you.  Any doubts you have will vanish when your first orders=
  come in. I even checked with the U.S. Post Office to verify that=
  the plan was legal. It definitely is! IT WORKS!!!
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     The main reason for this letter is to convince you that this=
  system is honest, lawful, extremely profitable, and is a way to=
  get a large amount of money in a short time. I was approached=
  several times before I checked this out. I joined just to see=
  what one could expect in return for the minimal effort and money=
  required.  To my astonishment, I received $36,470.00 in the=
  first 14 weeks, with money still coming in.
            Sincerely yours, Phillip A. Brown, Esq.

     Not being the gambling type, it took me several weeks to make=
  up my mind to participate in this plan. But conservative that I=
  am, I decided that the initial investment was so little that=
  there was just no way that I wouldn't get enough orders to at=
  least get my money back. Boy, was I surprised when I found my=
  medium-size post office box crammed with orders!  For awhile, it=
  got so overloaded that I had to start picking up my mail at the=
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  life before. The nice thing about this deal is that it doesn't=
  matter where in the U.S. the people live. There simply isn't a=
  better investment with a faster return.
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     I had received this program before. I deleted it, but later I=
  wondered if I shouldn't have given it a try. Of course, I had no=
  idea who to contact to get another copy, so I had to wait until=
  I was e-mailed another program...11 months passed then it=
  came...I didn't delete this one!...I made more than $41,000 on=
  the first try!!
           D. Wilburn, Muncie, IN

      This is my third time to participate in this plan. We have=
  quit our jobs, and will soon buy a home on the beach and live=
  off the interest on our money.  The only way on earth that this=
  plan will work for you is if you do it. For your sake, and for=
  your family's sake don't pass up this golden opportunity.  Good=
  luck and happy spending!
            Charles Fairchild, Spokane, WA

ORDER YOUR REPORTS TODAY AND GET
STARTED ON YOUR ROAD TO
FINANCIAL FREEDOM!!!








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Andrew Kuchling <amk@...> wrote:
> Possible attributes, based on the Linux Software Map and suggestions from
> Stephen Wynne and David Ascher:
>
> Required attributes:
...
> Author:         Author(s) of package.  In RFC822 format (i.e.,
>                 something that will fit into a From: or To: header of a
>                 normal Internet mail message).  Preferred format:
>                         mailname@... (Full name)
>                 Multiple persons may be given, one per line.
>
> (Should there be a separate Maintainer attribute?  For example, Niels
>  Moller originally wrote the GMP module, but I now maintain it. So
>  should the Author be me, or should there be both maintainer & author?
>  IMHO the purpose of the locator is to find software and contact the
>  people responsible *now*, not assign credit, so I'd say that
>  Author==Maintainer, & original authors should be credited in the
>  package's README.
>
> Optional attributes:
>
> Author-URL: The author's home page.

Hmm. If you *mean* something other than author, then it's probably a good idea
not to *say* author - so I would prefer this were called "Maintainer" it that's
what you want - saves a lot of grief trying to unconfuse people after the
fact...

(and then if you want a separate field called something like "original-author"
it is clearly different!)

<a little bit of pedantry can't hurt, surely> Tibs



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Andrew, Ken: I really like to see this happen -- here are some
comments that actually might make things a bit easier to implement, by
making them less ambitious.

I have no scientific evidence, but I'm not a big fan of keywords.
My guts tell me that an extensive keyword system may not be worth it.

I think I like the organization of a reference book best: there's a
hierarchical table of contents at the front, and there's an index in
the back.  Translate this to computers, and you have something like
Ken's classification hierarchy, but without symbolic links, plus full
text search on the descriptions.  The descriptions of course should be
structured (type, name, version, author, date, url, platform,
see-also, etc.)  but additional full-text indexing a paragraph or two
of description makes it much easier to find things using odd search
criteria.

You could consider the hierarchical table of contents a keyword scheme
(and it has some of the same properties -- it needs occasional
extension but that's mostly a manual process) but the difference is
that each module is in exactly one place.  That's useful because it
makes it possible to map it to a real file system without using
symbolic links (Ken already explained why that's a bad idea) and it
also makes it possible to get a feel for the size of the collection as
a whole, since every item is counted exactly once.

Some additional ways to access things might make things a lot more
usable:

	 - most popular (e.g. by recent download count, if available)

	 - new arrivals

	 - a personal selection (e.g. tchrist's selection from CPAN)

But just collecting the raw records for all items and making them
searchable is probably the most useful thing to start with.  The FAQ
wizard might even be good enough!

--Guido van Rossum (home page: http://www.python.org/~guido/)

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On Wed, 9 Jul 1997, Andrew Kuchling wrote:

>  That reminds me; a useful feature would be symlinks, so that
> Graphics/Image Processing/Transforms can have a link to
> Math/Matrix/FFT .  (It's not obvious whether a link should be

Structural links are a terrible pain!  Keywords are the direct approach
to providing inclusion of items in multiple categories.  In particular,
they don't incur the sometimes terrible burden of tracking and
uncovering incoming links to accomodate changes!

Ken Manheimer  klm@...     703 620-8990 x268
	     (orporation for National Research |nitiatives



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I am thrilled to see you pursuing this, andrew!  I know i won't have
time for at least a few days to really look at what you're doing, but
wanted to dump some thoughts i've acquired while accumulating the
Contributed.html/contrib catalogues on python.org.

First of all, not too long ago i made an effort to regularize the
_formatting_ of the http://www.python.org/python/Contributed.html
collection.  I'm not sure whether it's airtight, but i tried to make it
possible to automatically parse the outermost structure of the entries
(particularly the <dd> part) to extract some fields for each of the
packages: URL, pkg_name, terse_descr, author/author_address(es),
followed by the long descr in the <dt> part.  A few entries have sub
entries, which probably will call for human intervention.  (I've been
hoping to have a moment to see how the local collection and links
collections would reconcile, but it never got important enough, sigh.)

There is also some categorical info about each entry to be gleaned,
according to (1) where they are embedded in the doc (sections), and
(2) the contents of an optional "see also" note that follows several
of the entries.

In the process of accumulating this stuff over time, i've come to
identify a few things that i think would be highly desirable.

  0 Consolidating the info about the local collection and the links into
    a single db!! (I figure everyone feels this way, but couldn't help
    mention it.)

  1 A mechanism for associating keywords with entries, and for finding
    the items according to keywords.  This would be a refinement of the
    categorical approach i've simplistically taken with the uploaded
    (directories) and listed (document sections) collections i've
    accumulated at python.org.

    I think the collection of keywords should be well defined but
    extensible.  Ie, contributors select from the existing set, but can
    suggest additions when they see no alternative.  However, all
    additions would require approval, and the aim of the review would
    be to admit only clear and necessary extensions - ie, only when
    nothing existing will do, and the new keyword (or an better
    alternative) looks like a real good fit.  This would promote good
    keywords for use by the people searching for software...

    (The keywords at least could be used to provide the categorical
    views that the contrib typed directories and html list sections
    provide.  In fact, i've often envisioned a CGI app which presents
    items based on categorical keywords, doing dynamically what the
    html page layout currently does statically and in one big bunch.)

  2 A mechanism whereby users can register quantitative feedback about
    the robustness and importance of items they particularly value, and
    a corresponding mechanism for collating the feedback to pinpoint eg
    must-have items (numpy for those doing math, ilu for those doing
    distributed object, etc)

Well, this is a very rough dump off the top of my head.  I hope it's
useful...

Ken Manheimer  klm@...     703 620-8990 x268
	     (orporation for National Research |nitiatives


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Stephen M. Wynne wrote:
>
> In message <199707091911.PAA04359@...>, Andrew Kuchling
> wrote:
>
>         FUTURE: How should the tree be organized?  Like the
>         contrib directory on ftp.python.org, or some other scheme?
>
> Andrew,
>
> Maybe a hybrid of the contrib/Contributed FTP and HTML, I dunno.
> I'm confused about how this will augment the existing site (which
> has been serving my needs very well), but the ideas are flowing...
>
>         Follow the "Data Structures" link, and you'll see a single
>     branch ("Mathematical"--for sparse matrices or whatever), and 4
>     packages listed.
>
> It would be nice to keep these rich in hyperlinks, and include links
> for things like "Find other similar software," "Add review comments,"
> "Contribute a patch or a utility for item," "Visit sig-or-mailing-list
> archive." I see you have already setup a form for adding a package;
> this is great!
>
>         FUTURE: Packages currently have 4 attributes: title, version,
>     description, primary_site.  What attributes should packages have?
>
> How about date of archive release? Required software? Compatibility
> information? Mailing list links? Optional "current challenges" list?
> Size of archive. PGP signature key...
>
> I think I'd better stop now :-)

Don't stop, but wait a few days since we have a BSCW server here.
That is a rather nice package which can provide you with
workspaces, document trees, can store notes and so on.
I don't know if Andrew wants that, but before considering
further, we should have a look. One way could be to build new
methods into the existing BSCW server. Or we decide to use
it as an example and explicitly roll our own thing. Please look.
I don't continue here since this is mostly Dinu Ghermans setup
work, and he should announce it.

--
Christian Tismer             :^)   <mailto:tismer@...>
Applied Biometrics GmbH      :     Have a break! Take a ride on Python's
Carmerstr. 2, 10623 Berlin   :    *Starship* http://starship.skyport.net
      we're tired of banana software - shipped green, ripens at home

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Paul Everitt wrote:
> Back when we originally tried to get the locator going, I tried to
> follow the format specified by the IAFA working group (Internet
> Anonymous FTP archive).  It had several classes of records that could
> point to each other.  Classes included organizations, people, software,
> and documents.

	 Note to other Locator-SIG readers: more info on IAFA and
ALIWEB is at http://www.nexor.com/public/aliweb/ .  Of particular
interest is the description of the IAFA format at
http://www.nexor.com/public/aliweb/doc/iafa.txt .

	 This is an interesting structure; we could write helpful
registration CGIs which ask for, say, your personal information.  The
CGI then generates an IAFA form containing your data, and says "Put
this file *here*, naming it *this*; I'll remember it and check it
later tonight.  Then I'll check it every week."

	 However, will people be more likely to maintain the IAFA
files?  Perhaps... we could make things easy by registering people, so
they'd get a response like "Hi, Andrew!  Here are all the packages you
have registered: 1 2 3..."  When editing a package, the CGI could grab
the current IAFA file, let you edit it, and generate it as before.
(Of course, if everything is done via CGIs, what's the point of making
the user keep a copy on their machine?  And we're back to a
centralized registry...)

	 Another option: take something like Ultraseek, and let people
register pages with Python software on them; those pages would be
crawled and indexed.  Then users could do an Ultraseek search of those
pages.  Not very structured, but it might be easy to implement.


	 Andrew Kuchling
	 amk@...
	 http://people.magnet.com/%7Eamk/

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On Wed, 9 Jul 1997, Paul Everitt wrote:

> Back when we originally tried to get the locator going, I tried to
> follow the format specified by the IAFA working group (Internet
> Anonymous FTP archive).  It had several classes of records that could
> point to each other.  Classes included organizations, people, software,
> and documents.
>
> Specifically, I was trying to follow the use of ALIWEB.  This system
> allowed people to leave a specially formatted file at a special URL on
> their server.  They then register this URL with the central service.
> Once every so often the central service snarfs the files and rebuild the
> index.
>
> This lets people locally maintain their catalogs, rather than having to
> revisit some remote site to do so.

Would the CNRI "handle" system be helpful here?






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Back when we originally tried to get the locator going, I tried to
follow the format specified by the IAFA working group (Internet
Anonymous FTP archive).  It had several classes of records that could
point to each other.  Classes included organizations, people, software,
and documents.

Specifically, I was trying to follow the use of ALIWEB.  This system
allowed people to leave a specially formatted file at a special URL on
their server.  They then register this URL with the central service.
Once every so often the central service snarfs the files and rebuild the
index.

This lets people locally maintain their catalogs, rather than having to
revisit some remote site to do so.

In any event, I had documents that listed the classes of resources and
what attributes should be in each class.  I had a taxonomy roughly based
on that used on the Python site.  That is, when people classified their
software, the choices they could for the category were limited to a
small subset of keywords.

--
Paul Everitt       Digital Creations
paul@...  540.371.6909
## Python is my favorite language ##
##     http://www.python.org/     ##

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Possible attributes, based on the Linux Software Map and suggestions from
Stephen Wynne and David Ascher:

Required attributes:
Title:          The name of the package.
Version:        Version number or other designation.  Use a date if
                 nothing else is appropriate.
(If storing everything in a database, the combination of (Title, Version) must
  be usable as a key--thus, it has to be unique.)

Release-Date:   YYYYMMDD (so it's trivially easy to sort by date)
Description:    Short (10-15 lines?) description of the package.
Keywords:       Relevant keywords.
Author:         Author(s) of package.  In RFC822 format (i.e.,
                 something that will fit into a From: or To: header of a
                 normal Internet mail message).  Preferred format:
                         mailname@... (Full name)
                 Multiple persons may be given, one per line.

(Should there be a separate Maintainer attribute?  For example, Niels
  Moller originally wrote the GMP module, but I now maintain it. So
  should the Author be me, or should there be both maintainer & author?
  IMHO the purpose of the locator is to find software and contact the
  people responsible *now*, not assign credit, so I'd say that
  Author==Maintainer, & original authors should be credited in the
  package's README.

Stray thought: We could also do what the Perl community does--people
  are assigned codes like GWARD, so you can find all the stuff that
  person maintains, and look up their personal info.  That makes it
  easier to update everything when you change email addresses...
)
Status:         Maintained by the author, or unmaintained.
Primary-site:   A specification of on which site, in which directory,
                 and which files are part of the package.  First line
                 gives site and base directory, the rest give the sizes
                 and names of all files. Example:

                         Primary-site: sunsite.unc.edu /pub/Linux/docs
                                       10kB lsm-1994.01.01.tar.gz
                                       997  lsm-template
                                       22 M /pub/Linux/util/lsm-util.tar.gz

		 (Should sizes be exact?)

Optional attributes:

Author-URL: The author's home page.
URL:            URL of the package's home page.
Platforms:      Any/all of Macintosh, Windows 3.1/95/NT, Unix, Unix
		 variants & versions.
Requirements:   Lists other things that are required to use the
		 package.  These may be titles of other packages in
		 this database, or explanatory phrases like
	  	 "Any Unix with a working mmap()."
Copying-policy: Copying policy.  Use "GPL" for GNU Public License,
                 "BSD" for the Berkeley style of copyright, "Shareware"
                 for shareware, and some other description for other
                 styles of copyrights.  If the use or copying requires
                 payment, it must be indicated.

Fire away...


	 Andrew Kuchling
	 amk@...
	 http://people.magnet.com/%7Eamk/

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David Ascher wrote:
> Is this going to be just modules, or anything?  If it's anything, then
> there should be a type: module or type: documentation or type: whatever,
> and if they're all going to be modules then the documentation for each
> module need not say it's a module. =)

	 Hmm... that's a novel idea.  Offhand I would think that the
only things listed would be software; documentation is less common,
and is already being handled adequately by mechanisms like the
Documentation page on www.python.org .  There aren't new pieces of
documentation coming into existence every day, so it's not terribly
difficult to track them.

	 On the other hand, a lot of people are writing code and making
it available, so pieces of code have to be tracked, and tracked
without devoting very much of a maintainer's time.

	 However, not everything is a module.  NumPy isn't a module,
though it contains several modules.  I'd like to have an 'Included-In'
attribute, so that NumPy would be listed, and so would all the modules
that NumPy provides, which would be listed as components.  Consider
someone looking for code to read a Unix mailbox; they might not think
to check the standard distribution, but they could do a locator
search, and find a mailbox.py entry which read 'Included-In: Python
1.4'.  (Yes, I know it would be a lot of work to generate all the
entries for the standard library; burn that bridge when we come to
it...)


	 Andrew Kuchling
	 amk@...
	 http://people.magnet.com/%7Eamk/

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[ To avoid messy subject lines, follow-ups only to the Locator-SIG. ]

> It would be nice to keep these rich in hyperlinks, and include links
> for things like "Find other similar software," "Add review comments,"

	 That reminds me; a useful feature would be symlinks, so that
Graphics/Image Processing/Transforms can have a link to
Math/Matrix/FFT .  (It's not obvious whether a link should be
considered a package in its own right, or a branch that happens to
take you somewhere else in the tree.  The current display is obviously
influenced by Yahoo, where symlinks can be used in both ways, I
think. Hmm.)

	 It's not hard to implement displaying of symlinks in some
special way, but what's the Web-based interface for creating them?  I
was thinking that in editing mode you could "pick up" the current
directory, and drop it in other directories giving it a name.  It
still seems sort of cumbersome to use, though; perhaps if the pickup
was done via a cookie, you could have two Netscape windows open at the
same time and do it that way.  Any ideas?

> How about date of archive release? Required software? Compatibility
> information? Mailing list links? Optional "current challenges" list?
> Size of archive. PGP signature key...

	 Much like the Linux Software Map; see
ftp://ftp.execpc.com/pub/lsm/LSM.README .  For things like required
software, one might want to enforce some sort of
machine-understandable format so that dependencies can be computed
automatically.  (Imagine selecting extensions like NumPy, PIL,
Tkinter, from a form and getting a customized Python source tree
(assembled by a CGI) containing all the required code and modified
Setup files.  That would be really great, particularly for newbies...)

	 Let's discuss this on the Locator-SIG...


	 Andrew Kuchling
	 amk@...
	 http://people.magnet.com/%7Eamk/




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On Wed, 9 Jul 1997, Andrew Kuchling wrote:

>  What do you think, Sirs?

I think that URL's should be listed when available, as real HREF's in the
HTML.  If the packages don't have 'home pages', then separate URL's should
be listed for the source, docs, etc.

Very importantly, URL's for the authors should be listed.  Size of the
downloads should be listed with the HREF's.  Date of creation & date of
last modification by the author.

In the Data Structures page, Mathematical is a link to an empy page.  Bug?

Is this going to be just modules, or anything?  If it's anything, then
there should be a type: module or type: documentation or type: whatever,
and if they're all going to be modules then the documentation for each
module need not say it's a module. =)

I can go on like this for a long time, but it's a good place to start!

--da

PS: Re: "Sirs": I know that the pictures on the crew quarters are all of
     men, but let's remember that not all pythonistas are guys, folks.
     We can do better than the US Armed Services, methinks. =)


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In message <199707091911.PAA04359@...>, Andrew Kuchling wrote:

    	 FUTURE: How should the tree be organized?  Like the
    	 contrib directory on ftp.python.org, or some other scheme?

Andrew,

Maybe a hybrid of the contrib/Contributed FTP and HTML, I dunno.
I'm confused about how this will augment the existing site (which
has been serving my needs very well), but the ideas are flowing...

    	 Follow the "Data Structures" link, and you'll see a single
     branch ("Mathematical"--for sparse matrices or whatever), and 4
     packages listed.

It would be nice to keep these rich in hyperlinks, and include links
for things like "Find other similar software," "Add review comments,"
"Contribute a patch or a utility for item," "Visit sig-or-mailing-list
archive." I see you have already setup a form for adding a package;
this is great!

    	 FUTURE: Packages currently have 4 attributes: title, version,
     description, primary_site.  What attributes should packages have?

How about date of archive release? Required software? Compatibility
information? Mailing list links? Optional "current challenges" list?
Size of archive. PGP signature key...

I think I'd better stop now :-)

Steve

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Andrew Kuchling wrote:
...
>         What do you think, Sirs?

emote YEAH!

say "Dinu, but this doesn't make BSCW obsolete? Can we merge that?"

--
Christian Tismer             :^)   <mailto:tismer@...>
Applied Biometrics GmbH      :     Have a break! Take a ride on Python's
Carmerstr. 2, 10623 Berlin   :    *Starship* http://starship.skyport.net
      we're tired of banana software - shipped green, ripens at home

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>  What do you think, Sirs?

tubular.

[showing my age here.]  -- Aaron Watters


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[ Sent to locator-sig, which seems dead, and starship-crew, which is
   definitely alive.]

Here's a straw-man proposal for a Python module locator; the HTML
looks rather ugly in Netscape, but it'll give you the idea, and I
simply want to spark some discussion about this; where should it go
from here?  Go to:

	 http://starship.skyport.net/crew/amk/locator/view.cgi

That gets you to the root of the locator tree.  There are two
branches, "Data Structures" and "Encoding".
	 FUTURE: How should the tree be organized?  Like the
	 contrib directory on ftp.python.org, or some other scheme?

	 Follow the "Data Structures" link, and you'll see a single
branch ("Mathematical"--for sparse matrices or whatever), and 4
packages listed.
	 FUTURE: Packages currently have 4 attributes: title, version,
description, primary_site.  What attributes should packages have?
(See the Linux Software Map for ideas.)  A more attractive
rendering--making the primary site a live link to the site, for
example--isn't hard, and will eventually happen.

	 To maintain the tree, go to:
http://starship.skyport.net/crew/amk/locator/login.html

	 Use the login 'amk', and password 'pwd1'.  If you get them
wrong, you'll get no feedback, and will just see the root of the
locator tree as before.
		 FUTURE: Perhaps we shouldn't have password-protected
		 maintainers; perhaps people should submit entries via
		 Web or email which get approved and processed.

	 Once it succeeds, all the packages will have DELETE and EDIT
links next to them.  There are 4 fields at the bottom which can be
filled out and submitted to add a new package; there's also a field
that creates a new subcategory or branch, at your current location.
So, try it!  Create a new package and delete it; create a new category
or subcategory of an existing category.  (Don't bother to add packages
for real.)

	 Wandering around
	 http://starship.skyport.net/crew/amk/locator/tree/
will give you an idea of how the data's stored; it's just using the
filesystem, and pickling packages into files with generated names.  No
big deal...
		 FUTURE: Perhaps a real database is required?  But I
		 expect we could automatically generate static
		 index.html pages for each directory, once CPU load
		 gets to be a problem.  Only maintainers need to see a
		 dynamically generated page (though one could imagine
		 users being able to customize their view; excluding
		 packages that don't support the Mac or whatever).

	 What do you think, Sirs?


	 Andrew Kuchling
	 amk@...
	 http://people.magnet.com/%7Eamk/

_______________
LOCATOR-SIG: Discussions about a Python Locator for resource discovery

send messages to: locator-sig@...
administrivia to: locator-sig-request@...
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