Andrew Kuchling wrote:
> I can think of the following unclassifiable modules, off-hand:

I've had hopes of getting a Principia-based answer to a module
registry.  Besides the benefits listed below, one main one is that we
have "keyword views".  That is, a field in a record can contain multiple
keywords, allowing an entry to appear in multiple locations in a
hierarchy.

Some benefits of this system:

1) Multiple views of the database (hierarchical, keyword, etc.)
2) Full-text index.
3) Multiple administrators without need for shell logins.
4) High-speed object oriented, multiple version database with undo and
private sessions, integrated user database.
5) Data fed from external database (in this case, an tab-delimited file)
via HTTP file upload or allow modification via on-line forms.

Some cons:
1) Based on Principia (read: non-free) software licensed for use by the
PSA.
2) Loss of some of the diff capabilities of the faqwizard.

Some other thoughts/issues:
1) As I was getting cranked up on this again about two weeks ago, I
revisited the issue of a schema.  I went back and looked at the IAFA
RFC, then looked at how the LSM folks took a subset.  Never came to any
firm conclusions, except thinking that LSM was better because it was
less.

2) One thing that I liked about IAFA vs. LSM, though, was that it could
cover people and documents as well as software.

3) Another consideration is centralized vs. distributed.  The way ALIWEB
works is that people register an index of software at their local site.
The index is a URL that contains templates describing what they've
done.  A crawler comes around, picks up changes, and indexes them.
Also, the LSM is geared towards getting input via email.

4) Thus, it would be interesting to see the requirements of a module
registry.

I'll try to get a URL ready in the next day or two.  If anyone is
interested in what this would look like, drop me a line.  I don't want
to post the URL to the SIG because it will get archived, indexed, and
haunt me for the next million years :^)

--Paul

--
Paul Everitt       Digital Creations
paul@...  540.371.6909
## Python is my favorite language ##
##     http://www.python.org/     ##

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>    I had a similar problem... My GD library wrapper really belongs in
>some sort of Graphics section - but since it's really only used for Web
>stuff, I put it there...

	 Hmmm... I've also used it as a quick-and-dirty image
manipulation tool.  PIL would fit under the same question, and it's
certainly usable for more than just Web stuff.  A Graphics section
(for PyOpenGL and other stuff) is probably advised.

I can think of the following unclassifiable modules, off-hand:

	 * zlib (I put it in Text manipulation, somewhat arbitrarily)

	 * SSLeay (should go wherever socket stuff such as Medusa,
etc., will go)

	 * SANE, a Unix scanning API (Graphics)

	 * The ncurses module (Unix-specific section, maybe?)

	 * The calendrical modules being discussed in the DB-SIG (Data
Structures, I'd think, though it's a toss-up whether to put them in
Mathematical or non-math.)


	 Andrew Kuchling
	 amk@...
	 http://starship.skyport.net/crew/amk/

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Andrew Kuchling wrote:
> "aaron watters" <aaron_watters@...> wrote:
> >Please add entries to the Python modules FAQ wizard
> >I set up on starship (too easily!) using Guido's faqwiz.py.
>
>  An excellent idea, Aaron!  This is probably the easiest way to
> make the long-desired module registry a reality.

     Yes, Aaron rulez! :)


>  I'm not terribly familiar with faqwiz.py; how difficult is it
> to move entries from one section to another?  My concern is if I put
> an entry in the wrong section; how easy is it to fix?  (For example,
> I'm not sure where socket programming will go: distributed
> programming seems the best fit.)

     I had a similar problem... My GD library wrapper really belongs in
some sort of Graphics section - but since it's really only used for Web
stuff, I put it there...


>  And, where should we discuss the modules FAQ wizard?  Here on
> PSA-Members, or on the otherwise comatose locator SIG?

     I've already moved the discussion over with no PSA-members CC.
Hopefully that will start things off the right way...


        Richard



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Authenticated sender is <cyberbusiness@...>
Subject:  CHECK THIS OUT
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hello my name is Charles and i pardon the intrusion , But i just=
  think it is so cool how this program not only made me money ,=
  But the 4 reports taught me how to bulk email.  I procrastinated=
  for a long time thinking it would never work , But after i did=
  it I found out that the informaton in the REports themselves
was worth $20.00 and you can resale them that is great.i learned=
  so much about the internet and bulk emailing that i didnt know,=
  so if you are curious about the internet this is a good program=
  but the decision is up to you i am glad i did it


Subj:=09 >>>  $36,000 IN 14 WEEKS  <<<
Date:=0997-11-15 02:58:57 EST
From:=0908339455@...
To:=09Friend@...

I Never Thought I'd Be the One Telling You This:

I Actually Read a Piece of E-Mail & I'm Going to Europe on the=
  Proceeds!

Hello!

My name is Karen Liddell; I'm a 35-year-old mom, wife, and=
  part-time accountant.  As a rule, I delete all unsolicited=
  "junk" e-mail and use my account primarily for business.  I=
  received what I assumed was this same e-mail countless times and=
  deleted it each time.

About two months ago I received it again and, because of the=
  catchy subject line,  I finally read it.  Afterwards, I thought=
  , "OK, I give in, I'm going to try this.  I can certainly afford=
  to invest $20 and, on the other hand, there's nothing wrong with=
  creating a little excess cash."  I promptly mailed four $5 bills=
  and, after receiving the reports, paid a friend of mine a small=
  fee to send out some e-mail advertisements for me.  After=
  reading the reports, I also learned how easy it is to bulk=
  e-mail for free!

I was not prepared for the results.  Everyday for the last six=
  weeks, my P.O. box has been overflowing with $5 bills; many days=
  the excess fills up an extra mail bin and I've had to upgrade to=
  the corporate-size box!  I am stunned by all the money that=
  keeps rolling in!

My husband and I have been saving for several years to make a=
  substantial downpayment on a house.  Now, not only are we=
  purchasing a house with 40% down, we're going to Venice, Italy=
  to celebrate!

I promise you, if you follow the directions in this e-mail and be=
  prepared to eventually set aside about an hour each day to=
  follow up (and count your money!), you will make at least as=
  much money as we did.  You don't need to be a wiz at the=
  computer, but I'll bet you already are.   If you can open an=
  envelope, remove the money, and send an e-mail message, then=
  you're on your way to the bank.  Take the time to read this so=
  you'll understand how easy it is.  If I can do this, so can=
  you!

                        GO FOR IT NOW!!

                        Karen Liddell

The following is a copy of the e-mail I read:

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$=


This is a LEGAL, MONEY-MAKING PHENOMENON.
PRINT this letter, read the directions, THEN READ IT AGAIN !!!

You are about to embark on the most profitable and unique program=
  you may ever see.  Many times over, it has demonstrated and=
  proven its ability to generate large amounts of cash.  This=
  program is showing fantastic appeal with a huge and ever-growing=
  on-line population desirous of additional income.

This is a legitimate, LEGAL, money-making opportunity.  It does=
  not require you to come in contact with people, do any hard=
  work, and best of all, you never have to leave the house, except=
  to get the mail and go to the bank!

This truly is that lucky break you've been waiting for!  Simply=
  follow the easy instructions in this letter, and your financial=
  dreams will come true! When followed correctly, this electronic,=
  multi-level marketing program works perfectly...100% EVERY=
  TIME!

Thousands of people have used this program to:
     -  Raise capital to start their own business
     -  Pay off debts
     -  Buy homes, cars, etc.,
     -  Even retire!

This is your chance, so don't pass it up!

-----------------------------------------------------------------=
-----------------
OVERVIEW OF THIS EXTRAORDINARY
ELECTRONIC MULTI-LEVEL MARKETING PROGRAM
-----------------------------------------------------------------=
-----------------

Basically, this is what we do:

We send thousands of people a product for $5.00 that costs next=
  to nothing to produce and e-mail. As with all multi-level=
  businesses, we build our business by recruiting new partners and=
  selling our products.  Every state in the U.S. allows you to=
  recruit new multi- level business online (via your computer).

The products in this program are a series of four business and=
  financial reports costing $5.00 each.  Each order you receive=
  via "snail mail" will include:

   * $5.00 cash
   * The name and number of the report they are ordering
   * The e-mail address where you will e-mail them the report they=
  ordered.

To fill each order, you simply e-mail the product to the buyer. =
  THAT'S IT!  The $5.00 is yours!  This is the EASIEST electronic=
  multi-level marketing business anywhere!

FOLLOW THE INSTRUCTIONS TO THE LETTER AND
BE PREPARED TO REAP THE STAGGERING BENEFITS!

******* I  N  S  T  R  U  C  T  I  O  N  S *******

This is what you MUST do:

1. Order all 4 reports shown on the list below (you can't sell=
  them if you don't order them).

      *  For each report, send $5.00 CASH, the NAME & NUMBER OF=
  THE
         REPORT YOU ARE ORDERING, YOUR E-MAIL ADDRESS, and YOUR
         RETURN POSTAL ADDRESS (in case of a problem) to the=
  person whose
         name appears on the list next to the report.

      *  When you place your order, make sure you order each of=
  the four
         reports.  You will need all four reports so that you can=
  save them
         on your computer and resell them.

      *  Within a few days you will receive, via e-mail, each of=
  the four reports.
          Save them on your computer so they will be accessible=
  for you to send
          to the 1,000's of people who will order them from you.

2.  IMPORTANT-- DO NOT alter the names of the people who are=
  listed next
      to each report, or their sequence on the list, in any way=
  other than is
      instructed below in steps "a" through "d" or you will lose=
  out on the
      majority of your profits.  Once you  understand the way this=
  works, you'll
      also see how it doesn't work if you change it.  Remember,=
  this method
      has been tested, and if you alter it, it will not work.

     a.  Look below for the listing of available reports.

     b.  After you've ordered the four reports, replace the name=
  and address
          under REPORT #1 with your name and address, moving the=
  one that
          was there down to REPORT #2.

     c.  Move the name and address that was under REPORT #2 down=
  to
          REPORT #3.

     d.  Move the name and address that was under REPORT #3 down=
  to
          REPORT #4.

     e.  The name and address that was under REPORT #4 is removed=
  from
          the list and has NO DOUBT collected their 50 grand.

Please make sure you copy everyone's name and address=
  ACCURATELY!!!

3.  Take this entire letter, including the modified list of=
  names, and save
      it to your computer.  Make NO changes to the instruction=
  portion of this
      letter.

4.  Now you're ready to start an advertising campaign on the
      WORLDWIDE WEB!  Advertising on the WEB is very, very=
  inexpensive,
      and there are HUNDREDS of FREE places to advertise. Another
      avenue which you could use for advertising is e-mail lists.
      You can buy these lists for under $20/2,000 addresses or=
  you
      can pay someone a minimal charge to take care of it for=
  you.
      BE SURE TO START YOUR AD CAMPAIGN IMMEDIATELY!

5.  For every $5.00 you receive, all you must do is e-mail them=
  the report
      they ordered.  THAT'S IT!  ALWAYS PROVIDE SAME-DAY SERVICE
      ON ALL ORDERS!  This will guarantee that the e-mail THEY=
  send out,
      with YOUR name and address on it, will be prompt because=
  they can't
      advertise until they receive the report!

------------------------------------------
AVAILABLE REPORTS
------------------------------------------
***Order Each REPORT by NUMBER and NAME***

Notes:
-  ALWAYS SEND $5 CASH FOR EACH REPORT
-  ALWAYS SEND YOUR ORDER VIA FIRST CLASS  MAIL
-  Make sure the cash is concealed by wrapping it in at least two=
  sheets of paper
-  On one of those sheets of paper, include: (a) the number &=
  name of the report you are ordering, (b) your e-mail address,=
  and (c) your postal address.
_________________________________________________________________=

REPORT #1 "HOW TO MAKE $250,000 THROUGH MULTI-LEVEL SALES"

ORDER REPORT #1 FROM:
            MGL Enterprises
            8100 W. Crestline Ave.
            A-15 Box 120
            Littleton, CO 80123-1200
_________________________________________________________________=

REPORT #2 "MAJOR CORPORATIONS AND MULTI-LEVEL SALES"

ORDER REPORT #2 FROM:
             RD Rhodes
         p.o box 53372
       Indpls,in 46253-3372
_________________________________________________________________=

REPORT #3 "SOURCES FOR THE BEST MAILING LISTS"

ORDER REPORT #3 FROM:
             N. B. Bostrom
             3871 HWY 527
             HAUGHTON, LA 71037
_________________________________________________________________=

REPORT #4 "EVALUATING MULTI-LEVEL SALES PLANS"

ORDER REPORT #4 FROM:
             BUSSINESS SERVICES UNLIMITED
          P.O BOX 241075
          INDPLS,IN 46224-1075
_________________________________________________________________=

-----------------------------------------------------------------=
---------------------------------
HERE'S HOW THIS AMAZING PLAN WILL MAKE YOU $MONEY$
-----------------------------------------------------------------=
---------------------------------

Let's say you decide to start small just to see how well it=
  works. Assume your goal is to get 10 people to participate on=
  your first level. (Placing a lot of FREE ads on the internet=
  will EASILY get a larger response.) Also assume that everyone=
  else in YOUR ORGANIZATION gets ONLY 10 downline members.  Follow=
  this example to achieve the STAGGERING results below.

1st level--your 10 members with=
  $5...........................................$50
2nd level--10 members from those 10 ($5 x=
  100)..................$500
3rd level--10 members from those 100 ($5 x=
  1,000)..........$5,000
4th level--10 members from those 1,000 ($5 x 10,000)...$50,000
                                                    THIS TOTALS   =
      ----------->$55,550

Remember friends, this assumes that the people who participate=
  only recruit 10 people each.  Think for a moment what would=
  happen if they got 20 people to participate!  Most people get=
  100's of participants! THINK ABOUT IT!

Your cost to participate in this is practically nothing (surely=
  you can afford $20). You obviously already have an internet=
  connection and e-mail is FREE!!! REPORT#3 shows you the most=
  productive methods for bulk e-mailing and purchasing e-mail=
  lists.  Some list & bulk e-mail vendors even work on trade!

About 50,000 new people get online every month!

*******TIPS FOR SUCCESS*******

  *  TREAT THIS AS YOUR BUSINESS!  Be prompt, professional, and=
  follow
      the directions accurately.

  *  Send for the four reports IMMEDIATELY so you will have them=
  when
     the orders start coming in because:

     When you receive a $5 order, you MUST send out the requested
     product/report to comply with the U.S. Postal & Lottery Laws,=
  Title
     18,Sections 1302 and 1341 or Title 18,  Section 3005 in the=
  U.S. Code,
     also Code of Federal Regs. vol. 16, Sections 255 and 436,=
  which state
     that "a product or service must be exchanged for money=
  received."

  *  ALWAYS PROVIDE SAME-DAY SERVICE ON THE ORDERS YOU RECEIVE.

  *  Be patient and persistent with this program. If you follow=
  the
     instructions exactly, the results WILL undoubtedly be=
  SUCCESSFUL!

  *  ABOVE ALL, HAVE FAITH IN YOURSELF AND KNOW YOU WILL SUCCEED!

*******YOUR SUCCESS GUIDELINE*******

Follow these guidelines to guarantee your success:

If you don't receive 10 to 20 orders for REPORT #1 within two=
  weeks, continue advertising until you do.  Then, a couple of=
  weeks later you should receive at least 100 orders for REPORT=
  #2.  If you don't, continue advertising until you do.  Once you=
  have received 100 or more orders for REPORT #2, YOU CAN RELAX,=
  because the system is already working for you, and the cash will=
  continue to roll in!

THIS IS IMPORTANT TO REMEMBER:

Every time your name is moved down on the list, you are placed in=
  front of a DIFFERENT report.  You can KEEP TRACK of your=
  PROGRESS by watching which report people are ordering from you. =
  If you want to generate more income, send another batch of=
  e-mails and start the whole process again!  There is no limit to=
  the income you will generate from this business!

NOTE:  If you need help with starting a business, registering a=
  business name,                  how income tax is handled, etc.,=
  contact your local office of the Small Business Administration=
  (a Federal agency) for free help and answers to questions. Also,=
  the Internal Revenue Service offers free help via telephone and=
  free seminars about business taxes.

*******T  E  S  T  I  M  O  N  I  A  L  S*******

      This program does work, but you must follow it EXACTLY! =
  Especially the rule of not trying to place your name in a=
  different position, it won't work and you'll lose a lot of=
  potential income.  I'm living proof that it works.  It really is=
  a great opportunity to make relatively easy money, with little=
  cost to you.  If you do choose to participate, follow the=
  program exactly, and you'll be on your way to financial=
  security.
           Sean McLaughlin, Jackson, MS

      My name is Frank. My wife, Doris, and I live in Bel-Air, MD.=
  I am a cost accountant with a major U.S. Corporation and I make=
  pretty good money. When I received the program I grumbled to=
  Doris about receiving "junk mail." I made fun of the whole=
  thing, spouting my knowledge of the population and percentages=
  involved.  I "knew" it wouldn't work. Doris totally ignored my=
  supposed intelligence and jumped in with both feet. I made=
  merciless fun of her, and was ready to lay the old "I told you=
  so" on her when the thing didn't work... well, the laugh was on=
  me!  Within two weeks she had received over 50 responses. Within=
  45 days she had received over $147,200 in $5 bills! I was=
  shocked!  I was sure that I had it all figured and that it=
  wouldn't work.  I AM a believer now. I have joined Doris in her=
  "hobby."   I did have seven more years until retirement, but I=
  think of the "rat race" and it's not for me. We owe it all to=
  MLM.
            Frank T., Bel-Air, MD

     I just want to pass along my best wishes and encouragement to=
  you.  Any doubts you have will vanish when your first orders=
  come in. I even checked with the U.S. Post Office to verify that=
  the plan was legal. It definitely is! IT WORKS!!!
            Paul Johnson, Raleigh, NC

     The main reason for this letter is to convince you that this=
  system is honest, lawful, extremely profitable, and is a way to=
  get a large amount of money in a short time. I was approached=
  several times before I checked this out. I joined just to see=
  what one could expect in return for the minimal effort and money=
  required.  To my astonishment, I received $36,470.00 in the=
  first 14 weeks, with money still coming in.
            Sincerely yours, Phillip A. Brown, Esq.

     Not being the gambling type, it took me several weeks to make=
  up my mind to participate in this plan. But conservative that I=
  am, I decided that the initial investment was so little that=
  there was just no way that I wouldn't get enough orders to at=
  least get my money back. Boy, was I surprised when I found my=
  medium-size post office box crammed with orders!  For awhile, it=
  got so overloaded that I had to start picking up my mail at the=
  window. I'll make more money this year than any 10 years of my=
  life before. The nice thing about this deal is that it doesn't=
  matter where in the U.S. the people live. There simply isn't a=
  better investment with a faster return.
          Mary Rockland, Lansing, MI

     I had received this program before. I deleted it, but later I=
  wondered if I shouldn't have given it a try. Of course, I had no=
  idea who to contact to get another copy, so I had to wait until=
  I was e-mailed another program...11 months passed then it=
  came...I didn't delete this one!...I made more than $41,000 on=
  the first try!!
           D. Wilburn, Muncie, IN

      This is my third time to participate in this plan. We have=
  quit our jobs, and will soon buy a home on the beach and live=
  off the interest on our money.  The only way on earth that this=
  plan will work for you is if you do it. For your sake, and for=
  your family's sake don't pass up this golden opportunity.  Good=
  luck and happy spending!
            Charles Fairchild, Spokane, WA

ORDER YOUR REPORTS TODAY AND GET
STARTED ON YOUR ROAD TO
FINANCIAL FREEDOM!!!








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Andrew Kuchling <amk@...> wrote:
> Possible attributes, based on the Linux Software Map and suggestions from
> Stephen Wynne and David Ascher:
>
> Required attributes:
...
> Author:         Author(s) of package.  In RFC822 format (i.e.,
>                 something that will fit into a From: or To: header of a
>                 normal Internet mail message).  Preferred format:
>                         mailname@... (Full name)
>                 Multiple persons may be given, one per line.
>
> (Should there be a separate Maintainer attribute?  For example, Niels
>  Moller originally wrote the GMP module, but I now maintain it. So
>  should the Author be me, or should there be both maintainer & author?
>  IMHO the purpose of the locator is to find software and contact the
>  people responsible *now*, not assign credit, so I'd say that
>  Author==Maintainer, & original authors should be credited in the
>  package's README.
>
> Optional attributes:
>
> Author-URL: The author's home page.

Hmm. If you *mean* something other than author, then it's probably a good idea
not to *say* author - so I would prefer this were called "Maintainer" it that's
what you want - saves a lot of grief trying to unconfuse people after the
fact...

(and then if you want a separate field called something like "original-author"
it is clearly different!)

<a little bit of pedantry can't hurt, surely> Tibs



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Andrew, Ken: I really like to see this happen -- here are some
comments that actually might make things a bit easier to implement, by
making them less ambitious.

I have no scientific evidence, but I'm not a big fan of keywords.
My guts tell me that an extensive keyword system may not be worth it.

I think I like the organization of a reference book best: there's a
hierarchical table of contents at the front, and there's an index in
the back.  Translate this to computers, and you have something like
Ken's classification hierarchy, but without symbolic links, plus full
text search on the descriptions.  The descriptions of course should be
structured (type, name, version, author, date, url, platform,
see-also, etc.)  but additional full-text indexing a paragraph or two
of description makes it much easier to find things using odd search
criteria.

You could consider the hierarchical table of contents a keyword scheme
(and it has some of the same properties -- it needs occasional
extension but that's mostly a manual process) but the difference is
that each module is in exactly one place.  That's useful because it
makes it possible to map it to a real file system without using
symbolic links (Ken already explained why that's a bad idea) and it
also makes it possible to get a feel for the size of the collection as
a whole, since every item is counted exactly once.

Some additional ways to access things might make things a lot more
usable:

	 - most popular (e.g. by recent download count, if available)

	 - new arrivals

	 - a personal selection (e.g. tchrist's selection from CPAN)

But just collecting the raw records for all items and making them
searchable is probably the most useful thing to start with.  The FAQ
wizard might even be good enough!

--Guido van Rossum (home page: http://www.python.org/~guido/)

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On Wed, 9 Jul 1997, Andrew Kuchling wrote:

>  That reminds me; a useful feature would be symlinks, so that
> Graphics/Image Processing/Transforms can have a link to
> Math/Matrix/FFT .  (It's not obvious whether a link should be

Structural links are a terrible pain!  Keywords are the direct approach
to providing inclusion of items in multiple categories.  In particular,
they don't incur the sometimes terrible burden of tracking and
uncovering incoming links to accomodate changes!

Ken Manheimer  klm@...     703 620-8990 x268
	     (orporation for National Research |nitiatives



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I am thrilled to see you pursuing this, andrew!  I know i won't have
time for at least a few days to really look at what you're doing, but
wanted to dump some thoughts i've acquired while accumulating the
Contributed.html/contrib catalogues on python.org.

First of all, not too long ago i made an effort to regularize the
_formatting_ of the http://www.python.org/python/Contributed.html
collection.  I'm not sure whether it's airtight, but i tried to make it
possible to automatically parse the outermost structure of the entries
(particularly the <dd> part) to extract some fields for each of the
packages: URL, pkg_name, terse_descr, author/author_address(es),
followed by the long descr in the <dt> part.  A few entries have sub
entries, which probably will call for human intervention.  (I've been
hoping to have a moment to see how the local collection and links
collections would reconcile, but it never got important enough, sigh.)

There is also some categorical info about each entry to be gleaned,
according to (1) where they are embedded in the doc (sections), and
(2) the contents of an optional "see also" note that follows several
of the entries.

In the process of accumulating this stuff over time, i've come to
identify a few things that i think would be highly desirable.

  0 Consolidating the info about the local collection and the links into
    a single db!! (I figure everyone feels this way, but couldn't help
    mention it.)

  1 A mechanism for associating keywords with entries, and for finding
    the items according to keywords.  This would be a refinement of the
    categorical approach i've simplistically taken with the uploaded
    (directories) and listed (document sections) collections i've
    accumulated at python.org.

    I think the collection of keywords should be well defined but
    extensible.  Ie, contributors select from the existing set, but can
    suggest additions when they see no alternative.  However, all
    additions would require approval, and the aim of the review would
    be to admit only clear and necessary extensions - ie, only when
    nothing existing will do, and the new keyword (or an better
    alternative) looks like a real good fit.  This would promote good
    keywords for use by the people searching for software...

    (The keywords at least could be used to provide the categorical
    views that the contrib typed directories and html list sections
    provide.  In fact, i've often envisioned a CGI app which presents
    items based on categorical keywords, doing dynamically what the
    html page layout currently does statically and in one big bunch.)

  2 A mechanism whereby users can register quantitative feedback about
    the robustness and importance of items they particularly value, and
    a corresponding mechanism for collating the feedback to pinpoint eg
    must-have items (numpy for those doing math, ilu for those doing
    distributed object, etc)

Well, this is a very rough dump off the top of my head.  I hope it's
useful...

Ken Manheimer  klm@...     703 620-8990 x268
	     (orporation for National Research |nitiatives


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Stephen M. Wynne wrote:
>
> In message <199707091911.PAA04359@...>, Andrew Kuchling
> wrote:
>
>         FUTURE: How should the tree be organized?  Like the
>         contrib directory on ftp.python.org, or some other scheme?
>
> Andrew,
>
> Maybe a hybrid of the contrib/Contributed FTP and HTML, I dunno.
> I'm confused about how this will augment the existing site (which
> has been serving my needs very well), but the ideas are flowing...
>
>         Follow the "Data Structures" link, and you'll see a single
>     branch ("Mathematical"--for sparse matrices or whatever), and 4
>     packages listed.
>
> It would be nice to keep these rich in hyperlinks, and include links
> for things like "Find other similar software," "Add review comments,"
> "Contribute a patch or a utility for item," "Visit sig-or-mailing-list
> archive." I see you have already setup a form for adding a package;
> this is great!
>
>         FUTURE: Packages currently have 4 attributes: title, version,
>     description, primary_site.  What attributes should packages have?
>
> How about date of archive release? Required software? Compatibility
> information? Mailing list links? Optional "current challenges" list?
> Size of archive. PGP signature key...
>
> I think I'd better stop now :-)

Don't stop, but wait a few days since we have a BSCW server here.
That is a rather nice package which can provide you with
workspaces, document trees, can store notes and so on.
I don't know if Andrew wants that, but before considering
further, we should have a look. One way could be to build new
methods into the existing BSCW server. Or we decide to use
it as an example and explicitly roll our own thing. Please look.
I don't continue here since this is mostly Dinu Ghermans setup
work, and he should announce it.

--
Christian Tismer             :^)   <mailto:tismer@...>
Applied Biometrics GmbH      :     Have a break! Take a ride on Python's
Carmerstr. 2, 10623 Berlin   :    *Starship* http://starship.skyport.net
      we're tired of banana software - shipped green, ripens at home

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Paul Everitt wrote:
> Back when we originally tried to get the locator going, I tried to
> follow the format specified by the IAFA working group (Internet
> Anonymous FTP archive).  It had several classes of records that could
> point to each other.  Classes included organizations, people, software,
> and documents.

	 Note to other Locator-SIG readers: more info on IAFA and
ALIWEB is at http://www.nexor.com/public/aliweb/ .  Of particular
interest is the description of the IAFA format at
http://www.nexor.com/public/aliweb/doc/iafa.txt .

	 This is an interesting structure; we could write helpful
registration CGIs which ask for, say, your personal information.  The
CGI then generates an IAFA form containing your data, and says "Put
this file *here*, naming it *this*; I'll remember it and check it
later tonight.  Then I'll check it every week."

	 However, will people be more likely to maintain the IAFA
files?  Perhaps... we could make things easy by registering people, so
they'd get a response like "Hi, Andrew!  Here are all the packages you
have registered: 1 2 3..."  When editing a package, the CGI could grab
the current IAFA file, let you edit it, and generate it as before.
(Of course, if everything is done via CGIs, what's the point of making
the user keep a copy on their machine?  And we're back to a
centralized registry...)

	 Another option: take something like Ultraseek, and let people
register pages with Python software on them; those pages would be
crawled and indexed.  Then users could do an Ultraseek search of those
pages.  Not very structured, but it might be easy to implement.


	 Andrew Kuchling
	 amk@...
	 http://people.magnet.com/%7Eamk/

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On Wed, 9 Jul 1997, Paul Everitt wrote:

> Back when we originally tried to get the locator going, I tried to
> follow the format specified by the IAFA working group (Internet
> Anonymous FTP archive).  It had several classes of records that could
> point to each other.  Classes included organizations, people, software,
> and documents.
>
> Specifically, I was trying to follow the use of ALIWEB.  This system
> allowed people to leave a specially formatted file at a special URL on
> their server.  They then register this URL with the central service.
> Once every so often the central service snarfs the files and rebuild the
> index.
>
> This lets people locally maintain their catalogs, rather than having to
> revisit some remote site to do so.

Would the CNRI "handle" system be helpful here?






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Back when we originally tried to get the locator going, I tried to
follow the format specified by the IAFA working group (Internet
Anonymous FTP archive).  It had several classes of records that could
point to each other.  Classes included organizations, people, software,
and documents.

Specifically, I was trying to follow the use of ALIWEB.  This system
allowed people to leave a specially formatted file at a special URL on
their server.  They then register this URL with the central service.
Once every so often the central service snarfs the files and rebuild the
index.

This lets people locally maintain their catalogs, rather than having to
revisit some remote site to do so.

In any event, I had documents that listed the classes of resources and
what attributes should be in each class.  I had a taxonomy roughly based
on that used on the Python site.  That is, when people classified their
software, the choices they could for the category were limited to a
small subset of keywords.

--
Paul Everitt       Digital Creations
paul@...  540.371.6909
## Python is my favorite language ##
##     http://www.python.org/     ##

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Possible attributes, based on the Linux Software Map and suggestions from
Stephen Wynne and David Ascher:

Required attributes:
Title:          The name of the package.
Version:        Version number or other designation.  Use a date if
                 nothing else is appropriate.
(If storing everything in a database, the combination of (Title, Version) must
  be usable as a key--thus, it has to be unique.)

Release-Date:   YYYYMMDD (so it's trivially easy to sort by date)
Description:    Short (10-15 lines?) description of the package.
Keywords:       Relevant keywords.
Author:         Author(s) of package.  In RFC822 format (i.e.,
                 something that will fit into a From: or To: header of a
                 normal Internet mail message).  Preferred format:
                         mailname@... (Full name)
                 Multiple persons may be given, one per line.

(Should there be a separate Maintainer attribute?  For example, Niels
  Moller originally wrote the GMP module, but I now maintain it. So
  should the Author be me, or should there be both maintainer & author?
  IMHO the purpose of the locator is to find software and contact the
  people responsible *now*, not assign credit, so I'd say that
  Author==Maintainer, & original authors should be credited in the
  package's README.

Stray thought: We could also do what the Perl community does--people
  are assigned codes like GWARD, so you can find all the stuff that
  person maintains, and look up their personal info.  That makes it
  easier to update everything when you change email addresses...
)
Status:         Maintained by the author, or unmaintained.
Primary-site:   A specification of on which site, in which directory,
                 and which files are part of the package.  First line
                 gives site and base directory, the rest give the sizes
                 and names of all files. Example:

                         Primary-site: sunsite.unc.edu /pub/Linux/docs
                                       10kB lsm-1994.01.01.tar.gz
                                       997  lsm-template
                                       22 M /pub/Linux/util/lsm-util.tar.gz

		 (Should sizes be exact?)

Optional attributes:

Author-URL: The author's home page.
URL:            URL of the package's home page.
Platforms:      Any/all of Macintosh, Windows 3.1/95/NT, Unix, Unix
		 variants & versions.
Requirements:   Lists other things that are required to use the
		 package.  These may be titles of other packages in
		 this database, or explanatory phrases like
	  	 "Any Unix with a working mmap()."
Copying-policy: Copying policy.  Use "GPL" for GNU Public License,
                 "BSD" for the Berkeley style of copyright, "Shareware"
                 for shareware, and some other description for other
                 styles of copyrights.  If the use or copying requires
                 payment, it must be indicated.

Fire away...


	 Andrew Kuchling
	 amk@...
	 http://people.magnet.com/%7Eamk/

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David Ascher wrote:
> Is this going to be just modules, or anything?  If it's anything, then
> there should be a type: module or type: documentation or type: whatever,
> and if they're all going to be modules then the documentation for each
> module need not say it's a module. =)

	 Hmm... that's a novel idea.  Offhand I would think that the
only things listed would be software; documentation is less common,
and is already being handled adequately by mechanisms like the
Documentation page on www.python.org .  There aren't new pieces of
documentation coming into existence every day, so it's not terribly
difficult to track them.

	 On the other hand, a lot of people are writing code and making
it available, so pieces of code have to be tracked, and tracked
without devoting very much of a maintainer's time.

	 However, not everything is a module.  NumPy isn't a module,
though it contains several modules.  I'd like to have an 'Included-In'
attribute, so that NumPy would be listed, and so would all the modules
that NumPy provides, which would be listed as components.  Consider
someone looking for code to read a Unix mailbox; they might not think
to check the standard distribution, but they could do a locator
search, and find a mailbox.py entry which read 'Included-In: Python
1.4'.  (Yes, I know it would be a lot of work to generate all the
entries for the standard library; burn that bridge when we come to
it...)


	 Andrew Kuchling
	 amk@...
	 http://people.magnet.com/%7Eamk/

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[ To avoid messy subject lines, follow-ups only to the Locator-SIG. ]

> It would be nice to keep these rich in hyperlinks, and include links
> for things like "Find other similar software," "Add review comments,"

	 That reminds me; a useful feature would be symlinks, so that
Graphics/Image Processing/Transforms can have a link to
Math/Matrix/FFT .  (It's not obvious whether a link should be
considered a package in its own right, or a branch that happens to
take you somewhere else in the tree.  The current display is obviously
influenced by Yahoo, where symlinks can be used in both ways, I
think. Hmm.)

	 It's not hard to implement displaying of symlinks in some
special way, but what's the Web-based interface for creating them?  I
was thinking that in editing mode you could "pick up" the current
directory, and drop it in other directories giving it a name.  It
still seems sort of cumbersome to use, though; perhaps if the pickup
was done via a cookie, you could have two Netscape windows open at the
same time and do it that way.  Any ideas?

> How about date of archive release? Required software? Compatibility
> information? Mailing list links? Optional "current challenges" list?
> Size of archive. PGP signature key...

	 Much like the Linux Software Map; see
ftp://ftp.execpc.com/pub/lsm/LSM.README .  For things like required
software, one might want to enforce some sort of
machine-understandable format so that dependencies can be computed
automatically.  (Imagine selecting extensions like NumPy, PIL,
Tkinter, from a form and getting a customized Python source tree
(assembled by a CGI) containing all the required code and modified
Setup files.  That would be really great, particularly for newbies...)

	 Let's discuss this on the Locator-SIG...


	 Andrew Kuchling
	 amk@...
	 http://people.magnet.com/%7Eamk/




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On Wed, 9 Jul 1997, Andrew Kuchling wrote:

>  What do you think, Sirs?

I think that URL's should be listed when available, as real HREF's in the
HTML.  If the packages don't have 'home pages', then separate URL's should
be listed for the source, docs, etc.

Very importantly, URL's for the authors should be listed.  Size of the
downloads should be listed with the HREF's.  Date of creation & date of
last modification by the author.

In the Data Structures page, Mathematical is a link to an empy page.  Bug?

Is this going to be just modules, or anything?  If it's anything, then
there should be a type: module or type: documentation or type: whatever,
and if they're all going to be modules then the documentation for each
module need not say it's a module. =)

I can go on like this for a long time, but it's a good place to start!

--da

PS: Re: "Sirs": I know that the pictures on the crew quarters are all of
     men, but let's remember that not all pythonistas are guys, folks.
     We can do better than the US Armed Services, methinks. =)


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In message <199707091911.PAA04359@...>, Andrew Kuchling wrote:

    	 FUTURE: How should the tree be organized?  Like the
    	 contrib directory on ftp.python.org, or some other scheme?

Andrew,

Maybe a hybrid of the contrib/Contributed FTP and HTML, I dunno.
I'm confused about how this will augment the existing site (which
has been serving my needs very well), but the ideas are flowing...

    	 Follow the "Data Structures" link, and you'll see a single
     branch ("Mathematical"--for sparse matrices or whatever), and 4
     packages listed.

It would be nice to keep these rich in hyperlinks, and include links
for things like "Find other similar software," "Add review comments,"
"Contribute a patch or a utility for item," "Visit sig-or-mailing-list
archive." I see you have already setup a form for adding a package;
this is great!

    	 FUTURE: Packages currently have 4 attributes: title, version,
     description, primary_site.  What attributes should packages have?

How about date of archive release? Required software? Compatibility
information? Mailing list links? Optional "current challenges" list?
Size of archive. PGP signature key...

I think I'd better stop now :-)

Steve

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Andrew Kuchling wrote:
...
>         What do you think, Sirs?

emote YEAH!

say "Dinu, but this doesn't make BSCW obsolete? Can we merge that?"

--
Christian Tismer             :^)   <mailto:tismer@...>
Applied Biometrics GmbH      :     Have a break! Take a ride on Python's
Carmerstr. 2, 10623 Berlin   :    *Starship* http://starship.skyport.net
      we're tired of banana software - shipped green, ripens at home

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>  What do you think, Sirs?

tubular.

[showing my age here.]  -- Aaron Watters


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[ Sent to locator-sig, which seems dead, and starship-crew, which is
   definitely alive.]

Here's a straw-man proposal for a Python module locator; the HTML
looks rather ugly in Netscape, but it'll give you the idea, and I
simply want to spark some discussion about this; where should it go
from here?  Go to:

	 http://starship.skyport.net/crew/amk/locator/view.cgi

That gets you to the root of the locator tree.  There are two
branches, "Data Structures" and "Encoding".
	 FUTURE: How should the tree be organized?  Like the
	 contrib directory on ftp.python.org, or some other scheme?

	 Follow the "Data Structures" link, and you'll see a single
branch ("Mathematical"--for sparse matrices or whatever), and 4
packages listed.
	 FUTURE: Packages currently have 4 attributes: title, version,
description, primary_site.  What attributes should packages have?
(See the Linux Software Map for ideas.)  A more attractive
rendering--making the primary site a live link to the site, for
example--isn't hard, and will eventually happen.

	 To maintain the tree, go to:
http://starship.skyport.net/crew/amk/locator/login.html

	 Use the login 'amk', and password 'pwd1'.  If you get them
wrong, you'll get no feedback, and will just see the root of the
locator tree as before.
		 FUTURE: Perhaps we shouldn't have password-protected
		 maintainers; perhaps people should submit entries via
		 Web or email which get approved and processed.

	 Once it succeeds, all the packages will have DELETE and EDIT
links next to them.  There are 4 fields at the bottom which can be
filled out and submitted to add a new package; there's also a field
that creates a new subcategory or branch, at your current location.
So, try it!  Create a new package and delete it; create a new category
or subcategory of an existing category.  (Don't bother to add packages
for real.)

	 Wandering around
	 http://starship.skyport.net/crew/amk/locator/tree/
will give you an idea of how the data's stored; it's just using the
filesystem, and pickling packages into files with generated names.  No
big deal...
		 FUTURE: Perhaps a real database is required?  But I
		 expect we could automatically generate static
		 index.html pages for each directory, once CPU load
		 gets to be a problem.  Only maintainers need to see a
		 dynamically generated page (though one could imagine
		 users being able to customize their view; excluding
		 packages that don't support the Mac or whatever).

	 What do you think, Sirs?


	 Andrew Kuchling
	 amk@...
	 http://people.magnet.com/%7Eamk/

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> Today I got a letter from my sysadmins asking me to reduce my disk
> space usage; I managed to get below the threshold without deleting
> anything vital, but it reminded me that the SIG archives were intended
> to be a temporary measure, to be moved to python.org when we were
> happy with the archive style.
>
> However, that was then; we now have other services like reference.com
> and findmail.com doing the job.  So... should I continue maintaining
> the Web-based SIG archives at http://people.magnet.com/~amk/sigs, with
> an eye toward someday moving it?  On the other hand, it might be
> useful to have a Webbed archive at www.python.org for things like
> CD-ROMs, so that people could read through the archives locally.
> Stray thoughts?

www.python.org has the required disk space.  We'd be reluctant to
commit to much maintenance on the collection, but I think we can do
the little bit of work that needs to be done to have the automated
archiving work.  So if AMK and KLM can work out a date for the
transfer of the archives, I think it can be done.

--Guido van Rossum (home page: http://www.python.org/~guido/)

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I would like to see them on www.python.org. There is a possibility that
a CD-ROM will be made for distribution at SPAM6 (*cough*), and an image
of python.org will be awfully handy if it includes all that stuff.

-g

> From: David Ascher [SMTP:da@...]
> Sent: Tuesday, May 27, 1997 11:58 AM
> To: Andrew Kuchling
> Cc: locator-sig@...
> Subject: Re: [PYTHON LOCATOR-SIG] Any point in keeping
the Webbed SIG archives?
>
>
> > Today I got a letter from my sysadmins asking me to reduce my
disk
> > space usage; I managed to get below the threshold without
deleting
> > anything vital, but it reminded me that the SIG archives were
intended
> > to be a temporary measure, to be moved to python.org when we
were
> > happy with the archive style.
> >
> > However, that was then; we now have other services like
reference.com
> > and findmail.com doing the job.  So... should I continue
maintaining
> > the Web-based SIG archives at
http://people.magnet.com/~amk/sigs, with
> > an eye toward someday moving it?  On the other hand, it might
be
> > useful to have a Webbed archive at www.python.org for things
like
> > CD-ROMs, so that people could read through the archives
locally.
> > Stray thoughts?
>
> If python.org isn't appropriate for whatever reasons (lack of
time
> available by python.org folk, etc.), you could put them on
> starship.skyport.net...
>
> --david

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> Today I got a letter from my sysadmins asking me to reduce my disk
> space usage; I managed to get below the threshold without deleting
> anything vital, but it reminded me that the SIG archives were intended
> to be a temporary measure, to be moved to python.org when we were
> happy with the archive style.
>
> However, that was then; we now have other services like reference.com
> and findmail.com doing the job.  So... should I continue maintaining
> the Web-based SIG archives at http://people.magnet.com/~amk/sigs, with
> an eye toward someday moving it?  On the other hand, it might be
> useful to have a Webbed archive at www.python.org for things like
> CD-ROMs, so that people could read through the archives locally.
> Stray thoughts?

If python.org isn't appropriate for whatever reasons (lack of time
available by python.org folk, etc.), you could put them on
starship.skyport.net...

--david


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Today I got a letter from my sysadmins asking me to reduce my disk
space usage; I managed to get below the threshold without deleting
anything vital, but it reminded me that the SIG archives were intended
to be a temporary measure, to be moved to python.org when we were
happy with the archive style.

However, that was then; we now have other services like reference.com
and findmail.com doing the job.  So... should I continue maintaining
the Web-based SIG archives at http://people.magnet.com/~amk/sigs, with
an eye toward someday moving it?  On the other hand, it might be
useful to have a Webbed archive at www.python.org for things like
CD-ROMs, so that people could read through the archives locally.
Stray thoughts?


	 Andrew Kuchling
	 amk@...
	 http://people.magnet.com/%7Eamk/





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[My apologies if you get this more than once -- that means you're on
different Python mailing lists with different addresses.]

              6th International Python Conference
              ***********************************

              Pre-Announcement And Call For Papers
              *********** PLEASE POST ***********

CNRI and the PSA are proud to announce their intent to organize the
6th International Python Conference. While we are still finalizing
details about the location and date, we are making enough details
available so that authors can start writing exciting papers!


Tentative Location and Date
---------------------------

Nothing has been set in stone, but we're strongly aiming for a
conference on October 14-17, 1997, somewhere in the San Francisco Bay
Area (Monday, October 13 is Columbus day). For your convenience, we
will reserve a block of rooms in the hotel hosting the conference (to
be announced). Breakfast, breaks and lunch will be catered. There will
be a discount for full-time students and one for PSA members.


Tentative Conference Program
----------------------------

    o Tuesday: Tutorials (half-day and full-day tutorials will be available).
    o Wednesday and Thursday: Plenary paper presentations.
    o Friday: Developers' day.


Call For Papers
---------------

The 6th Python Conference is a forum for researchers, software
engineers, and practitioners using Python to discuss current work and
to plan for future development of the language. Authors are invited to
submit papers describing original research, or substantial or novel
applications and frameworks, using Python.

The use of Python spans a broad range of areas, from specific
application domains to software engineering techniques to
language-implementation techniques. The program committee encourages
papers in these and other areas. Possible paper topics include:

    o Novel applications
    o Experience building large systems
    o Extensions modules
    o New directions for core language
    o Implementation techniques
    o Integrating Python with other languages
    o Embedding Python in other applications or systems
    o Comparisons between Python and other languages (e.g. Java, Tcl, Perl)
    o Software engineering issues, programming tools (for/using Python)
    o Object-oriented and pattern-based design techniques
    o Portability issues, experience developing cross-platform
    o Using Python on Windows platforms, (e.g. COM, ActiveX)
    o Distributed objects (e.g. ILU & CORBA)
    o Database applications
    o World-Wide-Web applications
    o Scientific and engineering applications

Papers will be judged on the significance and originality of the
technical content, the quality of the presentation, and their
relevance to the Python community.

Note on application papers: Authors must balance the need to appeal to
the Python community at-large against the application-specific
details.  A paper should focus on issues and techniques that are
relevant to Python. It should also provide enough explanatory
material, including references to related work, to make application
specific issues understandable to a wider audience.


Tutorials and Panels
--------------------

The program committee is also seeking proposals for panel sessions and
tutorials. Proposals for panels should include a title and an abstract
describing subject of the panel. Ideally, the proposal should also
include a list of panelists who have agreed to participate. Tutorial
proposals should indicate the subject of the tutorial, the
instructor's qualifications, and an indication of whether the tutorial
would be half-day or full-day. Instructors will receive compensation.


Important Dates
---------------

    o July 25: deadline for papers, tutorial proposals, and panel proposals
    o August 25: notification of acceptance to authors
    o September 19: deadline for camera-ready copy
    o October 14-17: conference


Technical Requirements For Papers
---------------------------------

We prefer papers between 6 and 12 pages long (in 10-point typeface on
standard US letter format paper), including an abstract. You cannot
publish or submit for publication a substantially identical paper
elsewhere. We plan on making both on-line and paper proceedings
available; we will request authors to provide both PostScript and HTML
versions of the final version of their paper. For PostScript, we will
require 2-column format. (If any of these requirements would be a
problem for you, contact the program chairs as soon as possible.)

Authors of accepted papers will have 20 minutes to present their work
at the conference, plus 10 minutes to answer questions.

Full details for submission will be available soon. For additional
information, see the conference's Web pages
(http://www.python.org/workshops/1997-10/) or send email to
ipc6@....


Program Committee
-----------------

Chairs
    o Guido van Rossum, CNRI <guido@...>
    o Jeremy Hylton, CNRI <jhylton@...>

Members
    o Jim Ahlstrom, Interet
    o Donald Beaudry, Silicon Graphics
    o David Beazley, Univ. of Utah
    o Donn Cave, Univ. of Washington
    o Tom Christiansen, consultant
    o Paul Dubois, Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory
    o Robin Friedrich, United Space Alliance
    o Konrad Hinsen, Institute for Structural Biology (CEA/CNRS), France
    o Jim Hugunin, MIT
    o Bill Janssen, Xerox PARC
    o Fredrik Lundh, Saab Combitech, Sweden
    o Mark Lutz, consultant
    o Michael McLay, NIST
    o Skip Montanaro, Automatrix
    o Tim Peters, Dragon Systems
    o Jim Roskind, Netscape
    o Greg Stein, Microsoft
    o Aaron Watters, Lucent

--Guido van Rossum (home page: http://www.python.org/~guido/)

Anthony Baxter wrote:
>    what classifications should be used? How do people find out what
> classifications to use? Often something could go in more than one.
>
>    should there be a "platforms" field, for which platforms a package runs
> on? (defaulting to 'all')

Back when I made the original locator proposals, I tried to reverse
engineer Ken's "taxonomy" from his ftp archive layout.

I picked choices for field names based on the IAFA work.  There didn't
seem to be any better choices.  I think platforms (or something like it)
was one of the choices.

> There's a perl package in use here called something like 'Wilma' which
> is a bookmarks list type thingy, where people can suggest additions and
> fill out a form to add stuff, then an administrator of it can just add
> them. We could do something like this - here's a form, fill out for a new
> package, and it can even check URLs for reachability... add a email
> gateway for folks who aren't web-enabled...

For IAFA there was a service called ALIWEB (I think).  The idea was: you
tell the central repository that some you have software you'd like to
contribute.  You then leave a file at a URL that is your catalog.  The
central repository regularly checks that file, compiles the results, and
mirrors it to ALIWEB mirror sites.

Jim Fulton is providing a different spin with his PSA App.  (I'm
summarizing to keep it in the locator context -- I'm sure Jim will
correct me :^)  People register themselves at the PSA App web site.
They can then add/edit/delete entries for packages.  He has a system
where the PSA can create "keywords".  The person chooses keywords from
the list of authorized keywords to describe their system.

Just ideas...

--
Paul Everitt       Digital Creations
paul@...  540.371.6909
## Python is my favorite language ##
##     http://www.python.org/     ##

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Anthony Baxter wrote:
> I believe IAFA became an informational RFC. I don't know if anyone is
> using it.

	 I can't find it in the RFC index.  Any idea of the number or title?

>    could dates be done in something like 1997/03/18, so they're sortable?

	 <whap>  Of course, that's much better!

>    what classifications should be used? How do people find out what
> classifications to use? Often something could go in more than one.

	 No idea, yet; while I have some thoughts on this (and Ken
Manheimer posted a suggestion a long time ago--see
<URL:http://people.magnet.com/~amk/sigs/pipermail/1995q4.locator-sig/e415dca108f\
6.htm>)
it's probably orthogonal to the question of how to represent entries.

> should there be a "platforms" field, for which platforms a package
>runs on? (defaulting to 'all')

	 Like unix/win95/mac.  Good idea.  There should probably also
be a Requirements field, which lists other things the package needs,
like other modules or system files.  "Requirements: Matrix extensions,
Tkinter, /bin/wavplay"


	 Andrew Kuchling
	 amk@...
	 http://people.magnet.com/%7Eamk/
Save the Gutenberg Project! http://www.promo.net/pg/nl/pgny_nov96.html

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I believe IAFA became an informational RFC. I don't know if anyone is
using it.

>>> Andrew Kuchling wrote
> Last night I hacked around a bit and wrote some code for an LSM-like
> map.  Descriptions for a few files are at
> http://people.magnet.com/~amk/python/psm.txt, and a crude Yahoo-like
> interface is at http://people.magnet.com/~amk/python/modules/ .
> Comments & flames welcomed!

Comments on the psm format: (from someone who hasn't looked at the
lsm format, but will try to, soonish.)
    would be nice to allow some sort of "mirror site" (more than just
"primary site")

    could dates be done in something like 1997/03/18, so they're sortable?

    what classifications should be used? How do people find out what
classifications to use? Often something could go in more than one.

    should there be a "platforms" field, for which platforms a package runs
on? (defaulting to 'all')


There's a perl package in use here called something like 'Wilma' which
is a bookmarks list type thingy, where people can suggest additions and
fill out a form to add stuff, then an administrator of it can just add
them. We could do something like this - here's a form, fill out for a new
package, and it can even check URLs for reachability... add a email
gateway for folks who aren't web-enabled...

from mythical_otherworld import spare_time

Anthony

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I've been poking around for details on the IAFA draft; is it still
available?  Did it ever become an RFC?  There's an interesting paper
about them at http://www.w3.org/pub/Conferences/WWW4/Papers/52/ ; we
might want to consider the approach described there.

Last night I hacked around a bit and wrote some code for an LSM-like
map.  Descriptions for a few files are at
http://people.magnet.com/~amk/python/psm.txt, and a crude Yahoo-like
interface is at http://people.magnet.com/~amk/python/modules/ .
Comments & flames welcomed!


	 Andrew Kuchling
	 amk@...
	 http://people.magnet.com/%7Eamk/
Save the Gutenberg Project! http://www.promo.net/pg/nl/pgny_nov96.html

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The Locator SIG has been comatose for a while now, but many of its
issues are still unresolved.  I've been poking through the SIG
archives, and noticed numerous things that were never picked up.

1: Most importantly, there's still no central registry of extension
modules, and that's impeding progress.  On 22 Dec 95, in a posting
titled "Classifying python projects for indexing", Ken Manheimer
proposed a classification scheme that seems fine.  The posting is
archived at
http://people.magnet.com/~amk/sigs/pipermail/1995q4.locator-sig/e415dca108f6.htm\
l

I seem to recall once reading a proposal that we have something
similar to the Linux Software Map; each package is described in a
simply structured way, with version, URL, description, keywords, etc.
The files are easy to grep through and parse programmatically, making
it fairly easy to write Web interfaces to it.  I think we need to get
something, *anything* in place, so the community gets used to it.
Practically all Linux packages come with LSM entries these days.  In
comp.os.linux.announce, many announcements are simply "I'm releasing
FooBar v1.0.  Here's the LSM entry: ..."

So let's re-open this question.

Issue 2: the Webbed SIG archives.  Currently they're living in my
personal Web space here at Magnet.  All together they add up to 67MB
of space, and, while there are no explicit limits to how much space I
can use, I'm worried about getting mail from the admins saying "reduce
your disk usage".  So, I'd like to consider eventually moving them
over to www.python.org, once I've made some final changes (like
sorting on last names, and some other things).  Bonus: the archives
could be picked up by the mirror sites, too.

3. An easy thing to do, in addition to the Webbed archive: have the
Python-SIG mailing lists archived at www.reference.com, and get the
old messages indexed, too.  While www.findmail.com has been mentioned
as an equivalent service, findmail.com still isn't operational, and
there's no harm in duplication.  From experience on the lynx-dev
mailing list, which is archived at reference.com, it's *very*
convenient to have a searchable archive that's updated quickly; you
can find messages only a few hours old.  It would also be worth asking
if new SIGs could automatically have reference.com added as a
subscriber, without having to inform them ahead of time.

4:
On 29 Feb 96, Michael McLay wrote:
>I volunteer to champion the creation of the D.C. area Python User's
>group.  I really feel there is a need for such a group, but it won't
>work unless we have a critical mass of participants.  The group will
>not meet until at least 10 interested participants agree to attend a
>meeting.

	 Did anything ever come of this?  Should the idea be revived
now?  (I'd certainly attend...)

	 Whatever happened to the Bobo-based services mentioned at
SPAM5?


	 Andrew Kuchling
	 amk@...
	 http://people.magnet.com/%7Eamk/
Save the Gutenberg Project! http://www.promo.net/pg/nl/pgny_nov96.html

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