Good afternoon Chris:



That is correct, I'm fairly clutsy with the computer and I think I bungled  the
job.  So I have asked Noel Squibb  to relay it to the group. He is the fellow
who first sent it to me.



We will find out in a few hours if that strategy  works. Be patient and we will
get it to you somehow. That failing we will give you the key words and names for
the interested group members to work with.



Looking forewards to your subsequent comments and any questions that we may help
you with.



Thank you for your time.David Murray Paris Ontario Canada.



To: microhydro@yahoogroups.com
From: chriselder@...
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2009 16:17:54 -0900
Subject: RE: [microhydro] River property restrictions





I would love to read this. Is there a link that I didn't get?

From: microhydro@yahoogroups.com [mailto:microhydro@yahoogroups.com] On
Behalf Of David Murray
Sent: Tuesday, November 10, 2009 6:38 AM
To: microhydro@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [microhydro] River property restrictions

Goodmorning Steve:

Sorry I didn't catch this yesterday.

This entire concept of free flowing water not being able to be utilized to
capture signifigant amounts of power is just wrong.

The folks who have a classic background in hydraulics feel as though what
they learned in university hydraulic courses and manuals that was accepted
cirriculum, is basically all there is to know about water.

I am going to try to send you and the group a paper about a much dismissed
(formerly but now and gradually , incrementally understood, )
researcher,teacher ,observer, inventor.

A warning here, this is not easy stuff to get your head around, and you may
have to read some paragraphs 3 of 4 times before the concepts become lodged
in your thinking . And even then you may have to revisit many sections to
cement your fledgling concepts with further revelations and with what you
know by experience.

Those of you have spent time fishing while standing in streams will have a
signifigant leg up.

It is never too late in life to go wading in streams and learn to be a
observer. (Just tell people that you are doing research).

This fellow is well reported on the web however I rather like the
illustrations in the particular paper that was forwarded to me a fellow
microhydro group member Noel Squibb from Dartmoor in south west England.

Thank you for your time. David Murray Paris Ontario Canada. 519-442-1503.

To: microhydro@yahoogroups.com <mailto:microhydro%40yahoogroups.com>
From: jrkess98@... <mailto:jrkess98%40aol.com>
Date: Mon, 9 Nov 2009 21:13:40 -0500
Subject: Re: [microhydro] River property restrictions

Hi, Steve:
I am sure others will weigh in on this, but in general, without some kind
of 'head-raising' device (like a dam), you won't harvest more than maybe a
couple hundred watts, under any circumstance.
John Kessler, Ft. Lauderdale

In a message dated 11/9/2009 4:56:14 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
steven.d.morse@... <mailto:steven.d.morse%40boeing.com> writes:

Hello group,

I am looking for a retirement property for myself and also a community
property for my children. I have wanted to be off grid and self sustainable
since the 1970's. I am starting to look now for river front property because

I like micro-hydro power, irrigation, summer cooling and food resourses
available along the river.

I understand that local and federal laws (USA) may not allow private
development of micro-hydro or permanent structures to be built on many river

banks or along water ways. I want to know where to find legal restrictions/
limitations or if any exist so I can make an informed decision what
individual property is a good purchase for micro-hydro.

Are there creative legal ways to add micro-hydro where there are
restrictions and limitations? I would be most thankful for any help and
suggestions
and information to help narrow my search. I would prefer to find a property
in the South or Southeast USA where Solar is more efficient and winter
heating season is short.

Best regards
Steve Morse
Aerospace Engineer
Missouri USA

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

__________________________________________________________
Ready. Set. Get a great deal on Windows 7. See fantastic deals on Windows 7
now
http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=9691818

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





_________________________________________________________________
Windows Live: Keep your friends up to date with what you do online.
http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=9691815

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hallo Group,
Just a thought, why can't we all use our real names and addresses?
That way we all know who the members are and what country they live in.


Pat Downey
P. O. Box 132
Hofmeyr
5930
South Africa
Tel +27 48 8850132
Fax +27 48 8850429




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Alberto:

Cups or spoons made of soft materials may be useful in certain conditions .

Clean Water with low heads can use soft materials.
Clean water means NO "grit" at all, the water with grit impinging on the turbine
cups or buckets erode the surface and with time 24/7/365 total destruction may
occur.

increasing Heads require harder materials, and water intakes without good water
desanding will damage the turbine.

The opposite, if the water is fully cleaned and the head is not critical one may
be able to use nylon glass filled spoons or buckets.

As a good example, my first turbine I made, when I was 14 or so years old, was a
LEAD cast Pelton turbine to produce around 30 watts for a relative , using the
water stream feeding the house water, turbine that lasted more than 15 years and
out lived 3 - 24 Volts permanent , WWII surplus motors that arrived in large
quantities to my native country.

The water was pristine and no "grit" at all.

Nando

   ----- Original Message -----
   From: alberto rivera
   To: microhydro@yahoogroups.com
   Sent: Tuesday, November 10, 2009 11:47 PM
   Subject: Re: [microhydro] pelton wheel calculations



   Hmmmm, the cups offered are also made of aluminum.
   Are aluminum cups acceptable under a certain set of conditions, or are there
different kind of Aluminum cups which make them last as long as bronze cups? I
seem to recall someone said some boat propellers are made of aluminum and can
survive harsh marine conditions as well. Comments please.
   Rocky Rivera
   Philippines

   [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hello Nando,
Thank you for your reply. I will come back with the specifics when I get a
chance to go to the stream and when it gets back to it's regular size. The
stream is over it's banks at the time from hurricane Ida.
These specifics are just guess at the moment, but we had the local group of
college students from Appalachain State Universities power program a couple
years ago and I remember them saying the head was around 8 feet(may be able to
add 2'-3' with a dam made of boulders to replicate a beaver dam that was here
previously), the distance is around 250 feet but cannot remember the flow
amount. The students guesstimated the most we could get was around 60 watts. The
site is located in the Blue Ridge Mountains in North Carolina. I am not looking
for any answers now because of the lack of information but the low flow/head
Powerpal looks like the unit for me.
I have looked for a distributor and prices here in the States but have had no
luck.
Will get the specific information soon.
Thanks for your and the groups attention!
John


--- On Fri, 11/6/09, Nando <nando37@...> wrote:

From: Nando <nando37@...>
Subject: Re: [microhydro] PicoHydro Unit
To: microhydro@yahoogroups.com
Date: Friday, November 6, 2009, 9:38 AM







 









       John:



Powerpal.com is one -- though, why don't you tell us the site water volume and
head , as well as, possible pipe length and distance from the turbine to the
load.



Members may be able to suggest alternatives to attain a successful project.



Nando



----- Original Message -----

   From: JB

   To: microhydro@yahoogro ups.com

   Sent: Friday, November 06, 2009 8:01 AM

   Subject: [microhydro] PicoHydro Unit



Hi All,

   Does anyone know of a cheap PicoHydro unit I could purchase to mess around
with on my stream?

   I seem to remember one available in Asia somewhere but cannot find it again.

   Thanks for any help that can be provided.

   John



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

























[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Johannes;

Let's see if you are right

Head = 18 meters = 1800 centimeters
Water volume = 5.666 liter/sec

The basic formula,

  Volume = H2Ovol = Water velocity * Nozzle Area

Water Vel = sqrrt ( 2 * 18 * 9.81 ) = 18.79 meter/sec = 1879 cms/sec

Nozzle dia = 0.979 cms ; Nozzle Area = PI * Radius^2 =

nozzle Area = 3.1416 * 0.979^2 = 3.011cm^2/sec

H2Ovol = 1879 *3.011 = 5658 cm^3/sec = 5.658 liter/sec

YES -- THE ERROR IS HERE, I did not finish the job well.

Th Error is Radius and NOT diameter -- the Nozzle diameter is 0.979 * 2 = 1.958
cms = 19.58 mm

So JAMIE Please correct my error in your data & information folder for your
system.

Nando


   ----- Original Message -----
   From: yheinola
   To: microhydro@yahoogroups.com
   Sent: Wednesday, November 11, 2009 2:57 AM
   Subject: [microhydro] Re: pelton wheel calculations




   Nando,

   Your calculation is fine but for the nozzle size we may need to adjust
   the interpretation of the result. I think your formula gives the nozzle
   radius. The diameter should be double to that.

   When calculating with 10 mm nozzle I would get flow around 1.4 l/s. For
   single nozzle the diameter should be about 20 mm.

   Johannes

   --- In microhydro@yahoogroups.com, "Nando" <nando37@...> wrote:
   >
   > Jamie:
   >
   > Can you send to me the specifications , brand and model of your
   brushless DC motor and where there are more of those ?
   >
   > The Pelton Turbine shown has problems:
   >
   > NOT enough buckets, they are too far apart.
   > It looks that instead of 12, 16 buckets are needed ( lower
   efficiency).
   > The bucket tip open area determines the maximum diameter of the Jet.
   >
   >
   > The Buckets are placed radially and for better efficiency and water
   exiting the bucket plane needs to be at an angle in reference to the
   radius that could go, as high as, 30 degrees
   >
   > You need to KNOW the true pressure diameter and not the overall
   diameter of it, to be able to calculate the RPM generated with the head
   you have.
   >
   > If diameter is right the RPM would be: in cms
   >
   > RPM= 60 * ( {0.49*[SQRRT( 1800 *2 * 981)]}/(3.1416 *20) ) = 880 RPM
   >
   > You have 5.66 l/s = 5666 CM^3/S
   >
   > NOZZLE D =Nd = 5666/(0.98 *[sqrrt(2 *1800 * 981] * 3.1416] ) = 0.979
   cm diameter = 9.79 mm SINGLE NOZZLE
   >
   > I believe that the turbine diameter is lower, making the RPM higher .
   >
   > The generator you have may not be the one for such turbine.
   > Due to the low number of buckets the efficiency may be much lower, as
   well
   >
   > The site available Max power : 18 * 5.67 * 6 = 612, I expect 400 watts
   due to the turbine
   >
   > Nando
   >
   >
   >
   > ----- Original Message -----
   > From: truespace234
   > To: microhydro@yahoogroups.com
   > Sent: Tuesday, November 10, 2009 2:49 AM
   > Subject: [microhydro] pelton wheel calculations
   >
   >
   >
   > Hi,
   >
   > I am looking for help to calculate some of the parameters of the
   micro hydro project I am setting up. Here are the parameters I have so
   far:
   >
   > pelton wheel: 8.03 inches in diameter (204 mm) with 12 die-cast
   aluminum cups
   >
   > source of pelton wheel: ebay auction:
   >
   http://cgi.ebay.com/Pelton-Water-Wheel-Aluminum-Generator-Projects_W0QQi\
   temZ190346783999
   >
   > head height of water: 60 feet (18 meters)
   >
   > minimum water flow rate: 227 litres per minute (60 GPM)
   >
   > maximum water flow rate: 340 litres per minute (90 GPM)
   >
   > size of pipe: 4 inches
   >
   > length of pipe: 300 feet (91 meters)
   >
   > I am planning on using a brushless DC high voltage generator
   > to yield high efficiency as well as low electrical wiring costs.
   > The brushless DC motor I have is rated at maximum 1200watts and is
   3phase and runs at about 300VDC rectified at 250RPM.
   > The main parameter I am missing is the nozzle size I should use as
   > well as the most efficient RPM to spin the generator at. I will
   probably use gearing to the motor, since it should spin slower than the
   pelton wheel I think.
   >
   > nozzle size: ?(one or two nozzle configuration)
   >
   > pelton wheel RPM: ?
   >
   > Thanks for any input! :)
   >
   > cheers,
   > Jamie
   >
   >
   >
   >
   >
   > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
   >

   [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sorry people, but this topic is closed now, even though we have not seen a
proper response from all included. I will be strict and not approve any message
on this topic form now on.

As said by some of the members: we have to move on and learn from the past....

Wim
(moderator)

--- In microhydro@yahoogroups.com, alberto rivera <rockyrivers2001@...> wrote:
>
> As instructed by the moderator, no more discussions on this so we can move on.
> That being the case, just give Ginnee her refund and start re-building back
your business.
> Best of luck.
>
> Rocky Rivera
> Philippines
>
> --- On Wed, 11/11/09, Otto Rike <ottorike@...> wrote:
>
> From: Otto Rike <ottorike@...>
> Subject: [microhydro] Ginnee's Accusations of bait-and-switch
> To: microhydro@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Wednesday, November 11, 2009, 5:11 AM
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>  
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Regarding Ginnee Hancock's claims
>
> that I deliberately led her to believe I was selling her bronze
>
> turgos with the intention of sending aluminum:
>
>    Some
>
> of you might have noticed that she announced right away that she did
>
> not intend to present the relevant emails regarding this matter.
>
>
>
>  So, she expected you to pass judgment on a serious
>
> accusation regarding an original member of this group based on no
>
> more than her word, something which, as we saw, several of you were quite
willing
>
> to do.
>
>    For any of the membership who are actually
>
> interested in the facts of this case I am more than happy to present
>
> ALL of the email correspondence, although it actually  only
>
> requires one or two to prove that Ginnee's accusations are false and
>
> malicious, and by whom they were inspired.
>
>   They also show
>
> that the statements made by "Nando" are false as well,
>
> beginning with his claim that he and Joseph Hartvigsen only learned
>
> of Ginnee's existence some time after she had ordered the aluminum
>
> turgos from me.
>
>  The group archives show "Nando"
>
> offering her advice on Oct 2. 2007.
>
>
>
>    Where I come
>
> from it only takes one lie to make a man (or woman) a liar.
>
>    
>
>
>
> Since Ginnee has asked the group to pass judgment on this
>
> matter, what should be done if after having given the matter serious
>
> consideration the members decide she has knowingly made false and
>
> highly damaging accusations to the worldwide microhydro community,
>
> (and what about those who inspired her to do so)?
>
>
>
>  Ron
>
> Davis
>
>  watermotor.net
>
>
>
> --- On Fri, 11/6/09, Bill Sepmeier <bill@dcpowerandligh t.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> From: Bill Sepmeier <bill@dcpowerandligh t.com>
>
> Subject: [microhydro] He needs help, alright.
>
> To: microhydro@yahoogro ups.com
>
> Date: Friday, November 6, 2009, 3:14 PM
>
>
>
>  
>
>
>
> At 06:30 PM 11/4/2009, you wrote:
>
>
>
> >
>
>
>
> >
>
>
>
> >Wim Klunne,world class [edited] !
>
>
>
> Now there's a stable individual ... spamming the forum with insults
>
>
>
> to the moderator rather than addressing the issue.  Oh yeah.  Must be
>
>
>
> a real slow day in BFE.
>
>
>
> Perhaps El Flako could find time to update his web site, add
>
>
>
> something besides a local newspaper article from over a decade ago,
>
>
>
> if he's got nothing to do. Or deliver a working product to the poor
>
>
>
> folks who can't spot the problems with a business website that still
>
>
>
> has 1999 content online and a "yahoo" email contact address (which my
>
>
>
> cats both have - anybody can get a yahoo email account).
>
>
>
> It's a shame ... the "watermotor" concept powered America's early
>
>
>
> industrial revolution; direct mechanical energy is a proven
>
>
>
> concept.  Not exactly patentable though - anybody could attach a
>
>
>
> decent turgo or Pelton runner to a shaft and take power off with a
>
>
>
> few pulleys - after all, they were doing it before the American
>
>
>
> revolution.  Ran entire mills this way.  Perhaps it's time someone
>
>
>
> reputable and stable did so again.  If they do, I'm sure this Ginnee
>
>
>
> person would love to evaluate the beta product.  Let's see ... a
>
>
>
> runner on a short shaft in a steel box, 4 small pipes-as-jets and a
>
>
>
> sealed over-the-counter bearing on each end. A couple of pulleys for
>
>
>
> power take off.  Cost of materials and labor to build - maybe
>
>
>
> $150.  Anybody want to jump into this business? Or is El Flako's free
>
>
>
> time due to the lack of any market for this thing, other than in his
>
>
>
> own head?
>
>
>
> Wim ... we've never met, but my apologies to you on this guy's
>
>
>
> behalf, since he's obviously spent too much time by himself in a hot
>
>
>
> and overly humid climate.  Perhaps you could block his ISP's entire
>
>
>
> subnetwork mask?
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

..I remember some time ago(1990's) , that certain Govt. agencies in Vietnam were
manufacturing a Low-Head Turb. similar to the LH1000 and Powerpal (both of which
may be seen to more efficient/ reliable offshoots thereof ) .. Anyway, does
anyone know a manufacturer from whom one may purchase the non-assembled
components of these types of turbines.. so they may be (under licence) 
assembled (screwdriver industry manner) in my country??     (Or is this  a
"Copywright" problem??)  ..Just off the beaten track.. I hear talk of PV at
$2.50/watt ...but cant seem to find any commercial offers below $4.70 ...am I
not looking in the right place ?? Thanks tony

----------------------------------------

From: "Nando" <nando37@...>
Sent: Friday, November 06, 2009 9:44 AM
To: microhydro@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [microhydro] PicoHydro Unit



John:

Powerpal.com is one -- though, why don't you tell us the site water volume and
head , as well as, possible pipe length and distance from the turbine to the
load.

Members may be able to suggest alternatives to attain a successful project.

Nando

----- Original Message -----
From: JB
To: microhydro@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, November 06, 2009 8:01 AM
Subject: [microhydro] PicoHydro Unit

Hi All,
Does anyone know of a cheap PicoHydro unit I could purchase to mess around with
on my stream?
I seem to remember one available in Asia somewhere but cannot find it again.
Thanks for any help that can be provided.
John

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Dear all,



There are members of this group including policymakers and business decision
makers  -  who are interested in the advancement of ALL renewable energy
technologies around the world.



Representatives of an (internet) group promoting a technology - like micro
hydropower in this case – provide an insight into the professionalism of the
business community and its advocates.



For me the ongoing quarrel between a few (insider?) micro hydropower
representatives on relatively small business issues doesn’t come across as a
mature business community ready to bring the technology to the next level.



I truly appreciate the technical insights – could use some more service
delivery perspective (financing, contracting, business set-up etc) – BUT can
really do without the constant re-appearing of old quarrels.



Let’s grow our sector – learn from our mistakes – and move on. The future
generations will not accept anything less from us.



Jon Exel

Director Eko-Energetika - Microhydro Development Company in the Balkans

Senior Advisor to Governments and World Bank on design and implementation of
large scale renewable energy programs













From: microhydro@yahoogroups.com [mailto:microhydro@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
Of Otto Rike
Sent: Tuesday, November 10, 2009 10:35 PM
To: microhydro@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [microhydro] Patents and copyrights






   The line "Nando"  is repeating regarding copyrights comes directly from Joseph
Hartvigsen. This is what Hartvigsen has been telling the group for the last four
years, since Dec. 12, 05 (since removed by Klunne) in order to convince the
membership that he and his "partner" Peter Ruyter owned the turgo design.

http://www.mail-archive.com/microhydro@yahoogroups.com/msg01659.html

  I checked with the Swedish patent office and they told me exactly what Johannes
is saying. So did my patent lawyer:
Copyright does not apply to functioning machine parts, but Wim Klunne in his
wisdom would not allow me to reply to the group. It is strange that Hartvigsen
could make such an error because he has received special training in
understanding and using intellectual property rights from his company.
Since we are on this subject,
neither Hartvigsen nor Ruyter has ever been able to prove there is any such
person as the widow Ingela Carlson, from whom they claim  Ruyter purchased the
turgo design "copyright", or when or where this transaction took place, as much
as it would be in their interest to do so.
  In fact, they can't even tell us the name of the inventor.
   The Swedish National Police, and the Swedish Microhydro Association knows of
no such person. A reward offered in eleven Swedish newspapers, and to five
detective agencies has failed to turn up either Hartvigsen's widow or any trace
of her inventor husband.
   Yet this story is the basis of Hartvigsen's repeated statements to this group
and the microhydro community over the last four years in proof (the only
"proof") of their design ownership, last made in March of this year, and that my
turbines are "illegal", to which I was not allowed to reply by Wim Klunne.
  THIS is what Hartvigsen and "Nando"  have used to destroy our Watermotor
project.


  Ron Davis
  watermotor.net


--- On Tue, 11/10/09, yheinola <yheinola@... <mailto:yheinola%40yahoo.com>
> wrote:

From: yheinola <yheinola@... <mailto:yheinola%40yahoo.com> >
Subject: [microhydro] Re: Patents and copyrights
To: microhydro@yahoogroups.com <mailto:microhydro%40yahoogroups.com>
Date: Tuesday, November 10, 2009, 9:35 AM



Hello Nando,

Please, remember that I have only expressed my opinion shortly and then

given a couple of quotations from the websites of the US government

offices. I'm very sorry if that offends you.

I don't pretend to be a lawyer of any kind. How the US law is

`utilized' doesn't concern me at all. The information from

the US government websites is clear enough for me.

I know a lot of piracy and illegal copying takes place in the world. By

any means I don't support that. But we wouldn't solve that

problem by spreading inaccurate information concerning copyrights. I

don't want to impose my ideas to anybody, that's why I give the

references to official information sources for everyone to read by

themselves.

I hoped that you would read my message and the quotations up to the end.

You interpreted the phrase "and certain other intellectual

works" as it would cover all or "any" intellectual works

including machines and machine parts. However, the second quotation from

the USPTO clearly excludes the machine designs from copyrights:

"The copyright protects the form of expression rather than the

subject matter of the writing. For example, a description of a machine

could be copyrighted, but this would only prevent others from copying

the description; it would not prevent others from writing a description

of their own or from making and using the machine."

The statement is clear. When I make a machine design, the copyright will

protect my drawing but the design itself is not protected. The copyright

prevents others from copying or selling my drawing but doesn't

prevent anybody from making the machine exactly according my design.

I agree with you that the discussion on this topic shouldn't

continue long, since the matter doesn't concern the MHP community

unless we start to write books or do artistic works etc.

I just expected that you would support your opinion with a clear

statement from some official source of information. In conclusion I

still wait two things from you:

1) Please give official information and a link to support your

stand.

2) Explain what is the use of the patent system if all the

technical designs are already protected by copyright.

When these two topics get satisfactory answer, we will easily and

happily agree on this matter.

Thanking for your interest in discussion,

Johannes

http://www.uspto. gov/patents/ basics/index. html

<http://www.uspto. gov/patents/ basics/index. html>

--- In microhydro@yahoogro ups.com, "Nando" <nando37@... > wrote:

>

> I knew that I was opening a big CAN of Worms !!

>

> Unhappily, too many will try to show that they are "lawyers"

specialized in intellectual property laws.

>

> Start by investigating how many times this law was "utilized" to solve

the problems covering the law and how many of those did cover "Physical

tangible form of expression".

>

> If you have known it, your message should not have "existed" at all.

>

> You copied a part:

> Copyright is a form of protection provided by the laws of the United

States (title 17, U.S. Code) to the authors of "original works of

authorship," including literary, dramatic, musical, artistic, and

certain other intellectual works.

>

> Last part of the messages = and certain other intellectual works --

this alone says if someone invented something and that represents a

"physical tangible form of expression" then it is protected !!!

>

> Which includes any physical object --

>

> These are not my words or my "analysis " of the law, which by

definition I am not doing it, not I want it, because I am not a lawyer.

>

> Since this thread will not have any end -- due to the human nature --

I will be not continue with the thread -- it is senseless .

>

> Nando

>

>

> ----- Original Message -----

> From: yheinola

> To: microhydro@yahoogro ups.com

> Sent: Monday, November 09, 2009 2:44 AM

> Subject: Re: [microhydro] Patents and copyrights

>

>

>

> Dear Mr. Nando,

>

> Do you mean that the US Patent and Trademark Office don't know

patents and copyrights?

> I did read your messages. The official information that I have seen,

including the links in your messages, don't mention technical

innovations in connection to copyrights. Neither there are any words

about machines or technology. Please, see the partial quotation from the

link in your own message.

> (http://www.uspto. gov/smallbusines s/copyrights/ faq.html# 2)

>

> --- Beginning of quotation ---

>

> WHAT IS A COPYRIGHT?

>

> Copyright is a form of protection provided by the laws of the United

States (title 17, U.S. Code) to the authors of "original works of

authorship," including literary, dramatic, musical, artistic, and

certain other intellectual works. This protection is available to both

published and unpublished works. Section 106 of the 1976 Copyright Act

generally gives the owner of copyright the exclusive right to do and to

authorize others to do the following:

> . To reproduce the work in copies or phonorecords;

> . To prepare derivative works based upon the work;

> . To distribute copies or phonorecords of the work to the public by

sale or other transfer of ownership, or by rental, lease, or lending;

> . To perform the work publicly, in the case of literary, musical,

dramatic, and choreographic works, pantomimes, and motion pictures and

other audiovisual works;

> . To display the copyrighted work publicly, in the case of literary,

musical, dramatic, and choreographic works, pantomimes, and pictorial,

graphic, or sculptural works, including the individual images of a

motion picture or other audiovisual work; and

> . In the case of sound recordings, to perform the work publicly by

means of a digital audio transmission.

> ------------ --------- ----

>

> WHAT WORKS ARE PROTECTED?

>

> Copyright protects "original works of authorship" that are fixed in

a tangible form of expression. The fixation need not be directly

perceptible so long as it may be communicated with the aid of a machine

or device. Copyrightable works include the following categories:

> . literary works;

> . musical works, including any accompanying words

> . dramatic works, including any accompanying music

> . pantomimes and choreographic works

> . pictorial, graphic, and sculptural works

> . motion pictures and other audiovisual works

> . sound recordings

> . architectural works

>

> --- End of quotation ---

>

> The following information is from The United States Patent and

Trademark Office (USPTO)

> http://www.uspto. gov/patents/ basics/index. html

>

> --- Beginning of quotation ---

>

> WHAT ARE PATENTS, TRADEMARKS, SERVICEMARKS, AND COPYRIGHTS?

>

> Some people confuse patents, copyrights, and trademarks. Although

there may be some similarities among these kinds of intellectual

property protection, they are different and serve different purposes.

>

> WHAT IS A PATENT?

>

> A patent for an invention is the grant of a property right to the

inventor, issued by the United States Patent and Trademark Office.

Generally, the term of a new patent is 20 years from the date on which

the application for the patent was filed in the United States or, in

special cases, from the date an earlier related application was filed,

subject to the payment of maintenance fees. U.S. patent grants are

effective only within the United States, U.S. territories, and U.S.

possessions. Under certain circumstances, patent term extensions or

adjustments may be available.

>

> The right conferred by the patent grant is, in the language of the

statute and of the grant itself, "the right to exclude others from

making, using, offering for sale, or selling" the invention in the

United States or "importing" the invention into the United States. What

is granted is not the right to make, use, offer for sale, sell or

import, but the right to exclude others from making, using, offering for

sale, selling or importing the invention. Once a patent is issued, the

patentee must enforce the patent without aid of the USPTO.

> ------------ ---------

>

> WHAT IS A COPYRIGHT?

>

> Copyright is a form of protection provided to the authors of

"original works of authorship" including literary, dramatic, musical,

artistic, and certain other intellectual works, both published and

unpublished. The 1976 Copyright Act generally gives the owner of

copyright the exclusive right to reproduce the copyrighted work, to

prepare derivative works, to distribute copies or phonorecords of the

copyrighted work, to perform the copyrighted work publicly, or to

display the copyrighted work publicly.

>

> The copyright protects the form of expression rather than the

subject matter of the writing. For example, a description of a machine

could be copyrighted, but this would only prevent others from copying

the description; it would not prevent others from writing a description

of their own or from making and using the machine. Copyrights are

registered by the Copyright Office of the Library of Congress.

>

> --- End of quotation ---

>

> Greetings,

> Johannes

>

>

>

>

>

> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Thomas:

Any time that the load can be damaged by an over voltage or an over current a
controller is needed.

This at any energy level.

Nando



   ----- Original Message -----
   From: Thomas Miezejeski
   To: microhydro@yahoogroups.com
   Cc: Jon Younghans
   Sent: Tuesday, November 10, 2009 4:48 PM
   Subject: Re: [microhydro] pelton wheel calculations



   Nando,

   I have been reading posts to this groups and find you to be the most frequent
contributor.

   What is your view on the upper limit on power output before one gets involved
with regulators?


   Tom Miezejeski

   --- On Tue, 11/10/09, Nando <nando37@...> wrote:

   From: Nando <nando37@...>
   Subject: Re: [microhydro] pelton wheel calculations
   To: microhydro@yahoogroups.com
   Cc: jmorken@...
   Date: Tuesday, November 10, 2009, 2:35 PM



   Jamie:

   I checked with the eBay member selling the pelton and the report was that it
is the overall diameter of the turbine.

   Due to what is shown in eBay member selling page and the facts that he reports
ONLY the overall diameter and the wheel shown clearly has too FEW BUCKETS, is
logical to know that he does not know anything about hydro though it seems made
by the member.

   I would not acquire such turbine

   I took the Pelton picture and measurements trying to find the pressure point =
165 mm estimated

   The true RPM is going to be much higher to the diameters ratio and such view
it seems to be around 204/165 * 880 = 1088 RPM.

   Nando

   ----- Original Message -----
   From: Nando
   To: microhydro@yahoogro ups.com
   Cc: jmorken@shaw. ca
   Sent: Tuesday, November 10, 2009 11:31 AM
   Subject: Re: [microhydro] pelton wheel calculations

   Jamie:

   Can you send to me the specifications , brand and model of your brushless DC
motor and where there are more of those ?

   The Pelton Turbine shown has problems:

   NOT enough buckets, they are too far apart.
   It looks that instead of 12, 16 buckets are needed ( lower efficiency).
   The bucket tip open area determines the maximum diameter of the Jet.

   The Buckets are placed radially and for better efficiency and water exiting
the bucket plane needs to be at an angle in reference to the radius that could
go, as high as, 30 degrees

   You need to KNOW the true pressure diameter and not the overall diameter of
it, to be able to calculate the RPM generated with the head you have.

   If diameter is right the RPM would be: in cms

   RPM= 60 * ( {0.49*[SQRRT( 1800 *2 * 981)]}/(3.1416 *20) ) = 880 RPM

   You have 5.66 l/s = 5666 CM^3/S

   NOZZLE D =Nd = 5666/(0.98 *[sqrrt(2 *1800 * 981] * 3.1416] ) = 0.979 cm
diameter = 9.79 mm SINGLE NOZZLE

   I believe that the turbine diameter is lower, making the RPM higher .

   The generator you have may not be the one for such turbine.
   Due to the low number of buckets the efficiency may be much lower, as well

   The site available Max power : 18 * 5.67 * 6 = 612, I expect 400 watts due to
the turbine

   Nando

   ----- Original Message -----
   From: truespace234
   To: microhydro@yahoogro ups.com
   Sent: Tuesday, November 10, 2009 2:49 AM
   Subject: [microhydro] pelton wheel calculations

   Hi,

   I am looking for help to calculate some of the parameters of the micro hydro
project I am setting up. Here are the parameters I have so far:

   pelton wheel: 8.03 inches in diameter (204 mm) with 12 die-cast aluminum cups

   source of pelton wheel: ebay auction:
   http://cgi.ebay. com/Pelton- Water-Wheel- Aluminum- Generator- Projects_
W0QQitemZ1903467 83999

   head height of water: 60 feet (18 meters)

   minimum water flow rate: 227 litres per minute (60 GPM)

   maximum water flow rate: 340 litres per minute (90 GPM)

   size of pipe: 4 inches

   length of pipe: 300 feet (91 meters)

   I am planning on using a brushless DC high voltage generator
   to yield high efficiency as well as low electrical wiring costs.
   The brushless DC motor I have is rated at maximum 1200watts and is 3phase and
runs at about 300VDC rectified at 250RPM.
   The main parameter I am missing is the nozzle size I should use as
   well as the most efficient RPM to spin the generator at. I will probably use
gearing to the motor, since it should spin slower than the pelton wheel I think.

   nozzle size: ?(one or two nozzle configuration)

   pelton wheel RPM: ?

   Thanks for any input! :)

   cheers,
   Jamie

   [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

   [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Nando,

Your calculation is fine but for the nozzle size we may need to adjust
the interpretation of the result. I think your formula gives the nozzle
radius. The diameter should be double to that.

When calculating with 10 mm nozzle I would get flow around 1.4 l/s. For
single nozzle the diameter should be about 20 mm.

Johannes



--- In microhydro@yahoogroups.com, "Nando" <nando37@...> wrote:
>
> Jamie:
>
> Can you send to me the specifications , brand and model of your
brushless DC motor and where there are more of those  ?
>
> The Pelton Turbine shown has problems:
>
> NOT enough buckets, they are too far apart.
> It looks that instead of 12, 16 buckets are needed  ( lower
efficiency).
> The bucket tip open area determines the maximum diameter of the Jet.
>
>
> The Buckets are placed radially and for better efficiency and water
exiting the bucket plane needs to be at an angle in reference to the
radius that could go, as high as, 30 degrees
>
> You need to KNOW the true pressure diameter and not the overall
diameter of it, to be able to calculate the RPM generated with the head
you have.
>
> If diameter is right the RPM would be: in cms
>
> RPM= 60 * ( {0.49*[SQRRT( 1800 *2 * 981)]}/(3.1416 *20) ) = 880 RPM
>
> You have  5.66 l/s = 5666 CM^3/S
>
> NOZZLE D =Nd = 5666/(0.98 *[sqrrt(2 *1800 * 981] * 3.1416] ) = 0.979
cm diameter = 9.79 mm SINGLE NOZZLE
>
> I believe that the turbine diameter is lower, making the RPM higher .
>
> The generator you have may not be the one for such turbine.
> Due to the low number of buckets the efficiency may be much lower, as
well
>
> The site available Max power : 18 * 5.67 * 6 = 612, I expect 400 watts
due to the turbine
>
> Nando
>
>
>
>   ----- Original Message -----
>   From: truespace234
>   To: microhydro@yahoogroups.com
>   Sent: Tuesday, November 10, 2009 2:49 AM
>   Subject: [microhydro] pelton wheel calculations
>
>
>
>   Hi,
>
>   I am looking for help to calculate some of the parameters of the
micro hydro project I am setting up. Here are the parameters I have so
far:
>
>   pelton wheel: 8.03 inches in diameter (204 mm) with 12 die-cast
aluminum cups
>
>   source of pelton wheel: ebay auction:
>
http://cgi.ebay.com/Pelton-Water-Wheel-Aluminum-Generator-Projects_W0QQi\
temZ190346783999
>
>   head height of water: 60 feet (18 meters)
>
>   minimum water flow rate: 227 litres per minute (60 GPM)
>
>   maximum water flow rate: 340 litres per minute (90 GPM)
>
>   size of pipe: 4 inches
>
>   length of pipe: 300 feet (91 meters)
>
>   I am planning on using a brushless DC high voltage generator
>   to yield high efficiency as well as low electrical wiring costs.
>   The brushless DC motor I have is rated at maximum 1200watts and is
3phase and runs at about 300VDC rectified at 250RPM.
>   The main parameter I am missing is the nozzle size I should use as
>   well as the most efficient RPM to spin the generator at. I will
probably use gearing to the motor, since it should spin slower than the
pelton wheel I think.
>
>   nozzle size: ?(one or two nozzle configuration)
>
>   pelton wheel RPM: ?
>
>   Thanks for any input! :)
>
>   cheers,
>   Jamie
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

As instructed by the moderator, no more discussions on this so we can move on.
That being the case, just give Ginnee her refund and start re-building back your
business.
Best of luck.

Rocky Rivera
Philippines

--- On Wed, 11/11/09, Otto Rike <ottorike@...> wrote:

From: Otto Rike <ottorike@...>
Subject: [microhydro] Ginnee's Accusations of bait-and-switch
To: microhydro@yahoogroups.com
Date: Wednesday, November 11, 2009, 5:11 AM







 















Regarding Ginnee Hancock's claims

that I deliberately led her to believe I was selling her bronze

turgos with the intention of sending aluminum:

   Some

of you might have noticed that she announced right away that she did

not intend to present the relevant emails regarding this matter.



 So, she expected you to pass judgment on a serious

accusation regarding an original member of this group based on no

more than her word, something which, as we saw, several of you were quite
willing

to do.

   For any of the membership who are actually

interested in the facts of this case I am more than happy to present

ALL of the email correspondence, although it actually  only

requires one or two to prove that Ginnee's accusations are false and

malicious, and by whom they were inspired.

  They also show

that the statements made by "Nando" are false as well,

beginning with his claim that he and Joseph Hartvigsen only learned

of Ginnee's existence some time after she had ordered the aluminum

turgos from me.

 The group archives show "Nando"

offering her advice on Oct 2. 2007.



   Where I come

from it only takes one lie to make a man (or woman) a liar.

   



Since Ginnee has asked the group to pass judgment on this

matter, what should be done if after having given the matter serious

consideration the members decide she has knowingly made false and

highly damaging accusations to the worldwide microhydro community,

(and what about those who inspired her to do so)?



 Ron

Davis

  watermotor.net



--- On Fri, 11/6/09, Bill Sepmeier <bill@dcpowerandligh t.com> wrote:



From: Bill Sepmeier <bill@dcpowerandligh t.com>

Subject: [microhydro] He needs help, alright.

To: microhydro@yahoogro ups.com

Date: Friday, November 6, 2009, 3:14 PM



 



At 06:30 PM 11/4/2009, you wrote:



>



>



>Wim Klunne,world class [edited] !



Now there's a stable individual ... spamming the forum with insults



to the moderator rather than addressing the issue.  Oh yeah.  Must be



a real slow day in BFE.



Perhaps El Flako could find time to update his web site, add



something besides a local newspaper article from over a decade ago,



if he's got nothing to do. Or deliver a working product to the poor



folks who can't spot the problems with a business website that still



has 1999 content online and a "yahoo" email contact address (which my



cats both have - anybody can get a yahoo email account).



It's a shame ... the "watermotor" concept powered America's early



industrial revolution; direct mechanical energy is a proven



concept.  Not exactly patentable though - anybody could attach a



decent turgo or Pelton runner to a shaft and take power off with a



few pulleys - after all, they were doing it before the American



revolution.  Ran entire mills this way.  Perhaps it's time someone



reputable and stable did so again.  If they do, I'm sure this Ginnee



person would love to evaluate the beta product.  Let's see ... a



runner on a short shaft in a steel box, 4 small pipes-as-jets and a



sealed over-the-counter bearing on each end. A couple of pulleys for



power take off.  Cost of materials and labor to build - maybe



$150.  Anybody want to jump into this business? Or is El Flako's free



time due to the lack of any market for this thing, other than in his



own head?



Wim ... we've never met, but my apologies to you on this guy's



behalf, since he's obviously spent too much time by himself in a hot



and overly humid climate.  Perhaps you could block his ISP's entire



subnetwork mask?



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

























[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Jamie:

Yes, the 2 - 6.9 mm Nozzles make 1 - 9.79 mm Nozzle.

Using a regulating valve to reduce the water, what happens is that the volume is
reduced, as well as, the pressure, lowering the RPM of the generator that in
some cases may be OK - in others -- all depends on the type of load the
generator has to work with.

Normally, a change of Nozzles do the volume changes,

Nozzle will be better if it is cone, and the cone length depends on the turbine
casing -- the tip of the cone should be as close to possible to the turbine cups
for the Jet's "Vena Contracta" occurs close to the cup for better energy.

I would suggest that you do not use the generator you have with this turbine,
maybe you could get -- though if you use a reduction gearing to obtain the RPM
you want = ( voltage generated)

What is the use of the energy and what voltage is needed, the MPPT may be not
needed, info in detail to see what can be done in reference of the varying water
volume to see how to implement controls.

To avoid using such valves for volume regulation.

Nando

   ----- Original Message -----
   From: truespace234
   To: microhydro@yahoogroups.com
   Sent: Tuesday, November 10, 2009 10:45 PM
   Subject: [microhydro] Re: pelton wheel calculations




   Hi Nando,

   Thanks for the reply, regarding the number of cups on the pelton wheel, I
already bought one of these wheels so I will test it to see, I did notice before
that some other pelton wheels had 16 or more cups, but this 12 cup one was the
lowest price I could find..

   Thanks for the RPM and nozzle calculations, if I use the recommended
   9.79 mm nozzle diameter, would this also be equivalent to 2 nozzles with the
same total cross section area? (ie. two 6.91mm nozzles have the same total area
as the 9.79mm nozzle)

   Also to throttle the water flow without changing to a smaller nozzle,
   is it ok to use a large (ie. 4" or 2" diameter) ball valve in the feed pipe to
regulate the overall water flow? Will this cause efficiency loss though as it
acts as a resistance to the flow?
   Do you have any tips or links for geometry of high efficiency water nozzles
for this type of application? Should the 9.79mm nozzle should be as short as
possible to minimize flow resistance?

   For the water stream coming out the nozzle, should it hit the pelton wheel
radially or should it have a steeper angle aimed into the pelton wheel?

   The brushless DC motor is surplus, it costs a bit over $800 new and was made
in Korea. It is originally made for a vertical axis wind turbine application,
and has an ironless pancake stator and high power magnets. If I didn't already
have one of these motors, I would probably use a direct drive higher PRM
(1000RPM+) brushless motor instead.

   I think a good solution would be to use a direct drive high voltage brushless
DC generator feeding into a MPPT (power point tracking) regulator to charge a
battery bank! :)

   cheers,
   Jamie

   --- In microhydro@yahoogroups.com, "Nando" <nando37@...> wrote:
   >
   > Jamie:
   >
   > I checked with the eBay member selling the pelton and the report was that it
is the overall diameter of the turbine.
   >
   > Due to what is shown in eBay member selling page and the facts that he
reports ONLY the overall diameter and the wheel shown clearly has too FEW
BUCKETS, is logical to know that he does not know anything about hydro though it
seems made by the member.
   >
   > I would not acquire such turbine
   >
   > I took the Pelton picture and measurements trying to find the pressure point
= 165 mm estimated
   >
   > The true RPM is going to be much higher to the diameters ratio and such view
it seems to be around 204/165 * 880 = 1088 RPM.
   >
   > Nando
   >
   >
   > ----- Original Message -----
   > From: Nando
   > To: microhydro@yahoogroups.com
   > Cc: jmorken@...
   > Sent: Tuesday, November 10, 2009 11:31 AM
   > Subject: Re: [microhydro] pelton wheel calculations
   >
   >
   > Jamie:
   >
   > Can you send to me the specifications , brand and model of your brushless DC
motor and where there are more of those ?
   >
   > The Pelton Turbine shown has problems:
   >
   > NOT enough buckets, they are too far apart.
   > It looks that instead of 12, 16 buckets are needed ( lower efficiency).
   > The bucket tip open area determines the maximum diameter of the Jet.
   >
   >
   > The Buckets are placed radially and for better efficiency and water exiting
the bucket plane needs to be at an angle in reference to the radius that could
go, as high as, 30 degrees
   >
   > You need to KNOW the true pressure diameter and not the overall diameter of
it, to be able to calculate the RPM generated with the head you have.
   >
   > If diameter is right the RPM would be: in cms
   >
   > RPM= 60 * ( {0.49*[SQRRT( 1800 *2 * 981)]}/(3.1416 *20) ) = 880 RPM
   >
   > You have 5.66 l/s = 5666 CM^3/S
   >
   > NOZZLE D =Nd = 5666/(0.98 *[sqrrt(2 *1800 * 981] * 3.1416] ) = 0.979 cm
diameter = 9.79 mm SINGLE NOZZLE
   >
   > I believe that the turbine diameter is lower, making the RPM higher .
   >
   > The generator you have may not be the one for such turbine.
   > Due to the low number of buckets the efficiency may be much lower, as well
   >
   > The site available Max power : 18 * 5.67 * 6 = 612, I expect 400 watts due
to the turbine
   >
   > Nando
   >
   >
   >
   > ----- Original Message -----
   > From: truespace234
   > To: microhydro@yahoogroups.com
   > Sent: Tuesday, November 10, 2009 2:49 AM
   > Subject: [microhydro] pelton wheel calculations
   >
   >
   >
   > Hi,
   >
   > I am looking for help to calculate some of the parameters of the micro hydro
project I am setting up. Here are the parameters I have so far:
   >
   > pelton wheel: 8.03 inches in diameter (204 mm) with 12 die-cast aluminum
cups
   >
   > source of pelton wheel: ebay auction:
   >
http://cgi.ebay.com/Pelton-Water-Wheel-Aluminum-Generator-Projects_W0QQitemZ1903\
46783999
   >
   > head height of water: 60 feet (18 meters)
   >
   > minimum water flow rate: 227 litres per minute (60 GPM)
   >
   > maximum water flow rate: 340 litres per minute (90 GPM)
   >
   > size of pipe: 4 inches
   >
   > length of pipe: 300 feet (91 meters)
   >
   > I am planning on using a brushless DC high voltage generator
   > to yield high efficiency as well as low electrical wiring costs.
   > The brushless DC motor I have is rated at maximum 1200watts and is 3phase
and runs at about 300VDC rectified at 250RPM.
   > The main parameter I am missing is the nozzle size I should use as
   > well as the most efficient RPM to spin the generator at. I will probably use
gearing to the motor, since it should spin slower than the pelton wheel I think.
   >
   > nozzle size: ?(one or two nozzle configuration)
   >
   > pelton wheel RPM: ?
   >
   > Thanks for any input! :)
   >
   > cheers,
   > Jamie
   >
   >
   >
   >
   >
   > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
   >





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Thomas:

This is a question that has been asked endlessly.

All depends on the system the energy usage.

If is for charging a battery, you will need a controller when the battery is
full, no matter what power if the battery can be damaged with the overcharge .
Example, for a special case , I had to make a small turbine , 5 watts to charge
a battery for a remote sensor and transmitter and receiver, the turbine had a
controller to insure that the battery did not suffer any overcharge.Solar could
not be used, neither wind .

Any time the load  had an over voltage or over current that could damage it,
then a controller is needed, independent of the energy level.

Nando

   ----- Original Message -----
   From: Thomas Miezejeski
   To: microhydro@yahoogroups.com
   Cc: Jon Younghans
   Sent: Tuesday, November 10, 2009 4:48 PM
   Subject: Re: [microhydro] pelton wheel calculations



   Nando,

   I have been reading posts to this groups and find you to be the most frequent
contributor.

   What is your view on the upper limit on power output before one gets involved
with regulators?


   Tom Miezejeski

   --- On Tue, 11/10/09, Nando <nando37@...> wrote:

   From: Nando <nando37@...>
   Subject: Re: [microhydro] pelton wheel calculations
   To: microhydro@yahoogroups.com
   Cc: jmorken@...
   Date: Tuesday, November 10, 2009, 2:35 PM



   Jamie:

   I checked with the eBay member selling the pelton and the report was that it
is the overall diameter of the turbine.

   Due to what is shown in eBay member selling page and the facts that he reports
ONLY the overall diameter and the wheel shown clearly has too FEW BUCKETS, is
logical to know that he does not know anything about hydro though it seems made
by the member.

   I would not acquire such turbine

   I took the Pelton picture and measurements trying to find the pressure point =
165 mm estimated

   The true RPM is going to be much higher to the diameters ratio and such view
it seems to be around 204/165 * 880 = 1088 RPM.

   Nando

   ----- Original Message -----
   From: Nando
   To: microhydro@yahoogro ups.com
   Cc: jmorken@shaw. ca
   Sent: Tuesday, November 10, 2009 11:31 AM
   Subject: Re: [microhydro] pelton wheel calculations

   Jamie:

   Can you send to me the specifications , brand and model of your brushless DC
motor and where there are more of those ?

   The Pelton Turbine shown has problems:

   NOT enough buckets, they are too far apart.
   It looks that instead of 12, 16 buckets are needed ( lower efficiency).
   The bucket tip open area determines the maximum diameter of the Jet.

   The Buckets are placed radially and for better efficiency and water exiting
the bucket plane needs to be at an angle in reference to the radius that could
go, as high as, 30 degrees

   You need to KNOW the true pressure diameter and not the overall diameter of
it, to be able to calculate the RPM generated with the head you have.

   If diameter is right the RPM would be: in cms

   RPM= 60 * ( {0.49*[SQRRT( 1800 *2 * 981)]}/(3.1416 *20) ) = 880 RPM

   You have 5.66 l/s = 5666 CM^3/S

   NOZZLE D =Nd = 5666/(0.98 *[sqrrt(2 *1800 * 981] * 3.1416] ) = 0.979 cm
diameter = 9.79 mm SINGLE NOZZLE

   I believe that the turbine diameter is lower, making the RPM higher .

   The generator you have may not be the one for such turbine.
   Due to the low number of buckets the efficiency may be much lower, as well

   The site available Max power : 18 * 5.67 * 6 = 612, I expect 400 watts due to
the turbine

   Nando

   ----- Original Message -----
   From: truespace234
   To: microhydro@yahoogro ups.com
   Sent: Tuesday, November 10, 2009 2:49 AM
   Subject: [microhydro] pelton wheel calculations

   Hi,

   I am looking for help to calculate some of the parameters of the micro hydro
project I am setting up. Here are the parameters I have so far:

   pelton wheel: 8.03 inches in diameter (204 mm) with 12 die-cast aluminum cups

   source of pelton wheel: ebay auction:
   http://cgi.ebay. com/Pelton- Water-Wheel- Aluminum- Generator- Projects_
W0QQitemZ1903467 83999

   head height of water: 60 feet (18 meters)

   minimum water flow rate: 227 litres per minute (60 GPM)

   maximum water flow rate: 340 litres per minute (90 GPM)

   size of pipe: 4 inches

   length of pipe: 300 feet (91 meters)

   I am planning on using a brushless DC high voltage generator
   to yield high efficiency as well as low electrical wiring costs.
   The brushless DC motor I have is rated at maximum 1200watts and is 3phase and
runs at about 300VDC rectified at 250RPM.
   The main parameter I am missing is the nozzle size I should use as
   well as the most efficient RPM to spin the generator at. I will probably use
gearing to the motor, since it should spin slower than the pelton wheel I think.

   nozzle size: ?(one or two nozzle configuration)

   pelton wheel RPM: ?

   Thanks for any input! :)

   cheers,
   Jamie

   [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

   [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hmmmm, the cups offered are also made of aluminum.
Are aluminum cups acceptable under a certain set of conditions, or are there
different kind of Aluminum cups which make them last as long as bronze cups? I
seem to recall someone said some boat propellers are made of aluminum and can
survive harsh marine conditions as well. Comments please.
Rocky Rivera
Philippines





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hi Nando,

Thanks for the reply, regarding the number of cups on the pelton wheel, I
already bought one of these wheels so I will test it to see, I did notice before
that some other pelton wheels had 16 or more cups, but this 12 cup one was the
lowest price I could find..

Thanks for the RPM and nozzle calculations, if I use the recommended
9.79 mm nozzle diameter, would this also be equivalent to 2 nozzles with the
same total cross section area? (ie. two 6.91mm nozzles have the same total area
as the 9.79mm nozzle)

Also to throttle the water flow without changing to a smaller nozzle,
is it ok to use a large (ie. 4" or 2" diameter) ball valve in the feed pipe to
regulate the overall water flow?  Will this cause efficiency loss though as it
acts as a resistance to the flow?
Do you have any tips or links for geometry of high efficiency water nozzles for
this type of application?  Should the 9.79mm nozzle should be as short as
possible to minimize flow resistance?

For the water stream coming out the nozzle, should it hit the pelton wheel
radially or should it have a steeper angle aimed into the pelton wheel?

The brushless DC motor is surplus, it costs a bit over $800 new and was made in
Korea.  It is originally made for a vertical axis wind turbine application, and
has an ironless pancake stator and high power magnets.  If I didn't already have
one of these motors, I would probably use a direct drive higher PRM (1000RPM+)
brushless motor instead.

I think a good solution would be to use a direct drive high voltage brushless DC
generator feeding into a MPPT (power point tracking) regulator to charge a
battery bank! :)

cheers,
Jamie






--- In microhydro@yahoogroups.com, "Nando" <nando37@...> wrote:
>
> Jamie:
>
> I checked with the eBay member selling the pelton and the report was that it
is the overall diameter of the turbine.
>
> Due to what is shown in eBay member selling page and the facts that he reports
ONLY the overall diameter and the wheel shown clearly has too FEW BUCKETS, is
logical to know that he does not know anything about hydro though it seems made
by the member.
>
> I would not acquire such turbine
>
> I took the Pelton picture and measurements trying to find the pressure point =
165 mm estimated
>
> The true RPM is going to be much higher to the diameters ratio and such view
it seems to be around 204/165 * 880 = 1088 RPM.
>
> Nando
>
>
>   ----- Original Message -----
>   From: Nando
>   To: microhydro@yahoogroups.com
>   Cc: jmorken@...
>   Sent: Tuesday, November 10, 2009 11:31 AM
>   Subject: Re: [microhydro] pelton wheel calculations
>
>
>   Jamie:
>
>   Can you send to me the specifications , brand and model of your brushless DC
motor and where there are more of those  ?
>
>   The Pelton Turbine shown has problems:
>
>   NOT enough buckets, they are too far apart.
>   It looks that instead of 12, 16 buckets are needed  ( lower efficiency).
>   The bucket tip open area determines the maximum diameter of the Jet.
>
>
>   The Buckets are placed radially and for better efficiency and water exiting
the bucket plane needs to be at an angle in reference to the radius that could
go, as high as, 30 degrees
>
>   You need to KNOW the true pressure diameter and not the overall diameter of
it, to be able to calculate the RPM generated with the head you have.
>
>   If diameter is right the RPM would be: in cms
>
>   RPM= 60 * ( {0.49*[SQRRT( 1800 *2 * 981)]}/(3.1416 *20) ) = 880 RPM
>
>   You have  5.66 l/s = 5666 CM^3/S
>
>   NOZZLE D =Nd = 5666/(0.98 *[sqrrt(2 *1800 * 981] * 3.1416] ) = 0.979 cm
diameter = 9.79 mm SINGLE NOZZLE
>
>   I believe that the turbine diameter is lower, making the RPM higher .
>
>   The generator you have may not be the one for such turbine.
>   Due to the low number of buckets the efficiency may be much lower, as well
>
>   The site available Max power : 18 * 5.67 * 6 = 612, I expect 400 watts due
to the turbine
>
>   Nando
>
>
>
>     ----- Original Message -----
>     From: truespace234
>     To: microhydro@yahoogroups.com
>     Sent: Tuesday, November 10, 2009 2:49 AM
>     Subject: [microhydro] pelton wheel calculations
>
>
>
>     Hi,
>
>     I am looking for help to calculate some of the parameters of the micro
hydro project I am setting up. Here are the parameters I have so far:
>
>     pelton wheel: 8.03 inches in diameter (204 mm) with 12 die-cast aluminum
cups
>
>     source of pelton wheel: ebay auction:
>    
http://cgi.ebay.com/Pelton-Water-Wheel-Aluminum-Generator-Projects_W0QQitemZ1903\
46783999
>
>     head height of water: 60 feet (18 meters)
>
>     minimum water flow rate: 227 litres per minute (60 GPM)
>
>     maximum water flow rate: 340 litres per minute (90 GPM)
>
>     size of pipe: 4 inches
>
>     length of pipe: 300 feet (91 meters)
>
>     I am planning on using a brushless DC high voltage generator
>     to yield high efficiency as well as low electrical wiring costs.
>     The brushless DC motor I have is rated at maximum 1200watts and is 3phase
and runs at about 300VDC rectified at 250RPM.
>     The main parameter I am missing is the nozzle size I should use as
>     well as the most efficient RPM to spin the generator at. I will probably
use gearing to the motor, since it should spin slower than the pelton wheel I
think.
>
>     nozzle size: ?(one or two nozzle configuration)
>
>     pelton wheel RPM: ?
>
>     Thanks for any input! :)
>
>     cheers,
>     Jamie
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

I would love to read this.  Is there a link that I didn't get?



From: microhydro@yahoogroups.com [mailto:microhydro@yahoogroups.com] On
Behalf Of David Murray
Sent: Tuesday, November 10, 2009 6:38 AM
To: microhydro@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [microhydro] River property restrictions






Goodmorning Steve:

Sorry I didn't catch this yesterday.

This entire concept of free flowing water not being able to be utilized to
capture signifigant amounts of power is just wrong.

The folks who have a classic background in hydraulics feel as though what
they learned in university hydraulic courses and manuals that was accepted
cirriculum, is basically all there is to know about water.

I am going to try to send you and the group a paper about a much dismissed
(formerly but now and gradually , incrementally understood, )
researcher,teacher ,observer, inventor.

A warning here, this is not easy stuff to get your head around, and you may
have to read some paragraphs 3 of 4 times before the concepts become lodged
in your thinking . And even then you may have to revisit many sections to
cement your fledgling concepts with further revelations and with what you
know by experience.

Those of you have spent time fishing while standing in streams will have a
signifigant leg up.

It is never too late in life to go wading in streams and learn to be a
observer. (Just tell people that you are doing research).

This fellow is well reported on the web however I rather like the
illustrations in the particular paper that was forwarded to me a fellow
microhydro group member Noel Squibb from Dartmoor in south west England.

Thank you for your time. David Murray Paris Ontario Canada. 519-442-1503.


To: microhydro@yahoogroups.com <mailto:microhydro%40yahoogroups.com>
From: jrkess98@... <mailto:jrkess98%40aol.com>
Date: Mon, 9 Nov 2009 21:13:40 -0500
Subject: Re: [microhydro] River property restrictions

Hi, Steve:
I am sure others will weigh in on this, but in general, without some kind
of 'head-raising' device (like a dam), you won't harvest more than maybe a
couple hundred watts, under any circumstance.
John Kessler, Ft. Lauderdale

In a message dated 11/9/2009 4:56:14 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
steven.d.morse@... <mailto:steven.d.morse%40boeing.com>  writes:

Hello group,

I am looking for a retirement property for myself and also a community
property for my children. I have wanted to be off grid and self sustainable
since the 1970's. I am starting to look now for river front property because

I like micro-hydro power, irrigation, summer cooling and food resourses
available along the river.

I understand that local and federal laws (USA) may not allow private
development of micro-hydro or permanent structures to be built on many river

banks or along water ways. I want to know where to find legal restrictions/
limitations or if any exist so I can make an informed decision what
individual property is a good purchase for micro-hydro.

Are there creative legal ways to add micro-hydro where there are
restrictions and limitations? I would be most thankful for any help and
suggestions
and information to help narrow my search. I would prefer to find a property
in the South or Southeast USA where Solar is more efficient and winter
heating season is short.

Best regards
Steve Morse
Aerospace Engineer
Missouri USA

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


__________________________________________________________
Ready. Set. Get a great deal on Windows 7. See fantastic deals on Windows 7
now
http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=9691818

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I have had the same idea and done a little research.

Due to all kinds on zoning, water usage rules, and other legal problems I have
come to the conclusion that finding an old mill site is the best idea.

Most of them are "grandfathered" as far as the rules are concerned, so that
often modren regulations do not apply.

Some may be concidered "historic" and you can get grants for fixing them up.
This money does come with strings though, so have an expert go over the
paperwork before you sign anything.

But water power is an old idea and there are many good sites that are now
abndoned with the avialibly of high line power.

Nando,
 
I have been reading posts to this groups and find you to be the most frequent
contributor. 
 
What is your view on the upper limit on power output before one gets involved
with regulators?
 


Tom Miezejeski


--- On Tue, 11/10/09, Nando <nando37@...> wrote:


From: Nando <nando37@...>
Subject: Re: [microhydro] pelton wheel calculations
To: microhydro@yahoogroups.com
Cc: jmorken@...
Date: Tuesday, November 10, 2009, 2:35 PM


 



Jamie:

I checked with the eBay member selling the pelton and the report was that it is
the overall diameter of the turbine.

Due to what is shown in eBay member selling page and the facts that he reports
ONLY the overall diameter and the wheel shown clearly has too FEW BUCKETS, is
logical to know that he does not know anything about hydro though it seems made
by the member.

I would not acquire such turbine

I took the Pelton picture and measurements trying to find the pressure point =
165 mm estimated

The true RPM is going to be much higher to the diameters ratio and such view it
seems to be around 204/165 * 880 = 1088 RPM.

Nando

----- Original Message -----
From: Nando
To: microhydro@yahoogro ups.com
Cc: jmorken@shaw. ca
Sent: Tuesday, November 10, 2009 11:31 AM
Subject: Re: [microhydro] pelton wheel calculations

Jamie:

Can you send to me the specifications , brand and model of your brushless DC
motor and where there are more of those ?

The Pelton Turbine shown has problems:

NOT enough buckets, they are too far apart.
It looks that instead of 12, 16 buckets are needed ( lower efficiency).
The bucket tip open area determines the maximum diameter of the Jet.

The Buckets are placed radially and for better efficiency and water exiting the
bucket plane needs to be at an angle in reference to the radius that could go,
as high as, 30 degrees

You need to KNOW the true pressure diameter and not the overall diameter of it,
to be able to calculate the RPM generated with the head you have.

If diameter is right the RPM would be: in cms

RPM= 60 * ( {0.49*[SQRRT( 1800 *2 * 981)]}/(3.1416 *20) ) = 880 RPM

You have 5.66 l/s = 5666 CM^3/S

NOZZLE D =Nd = 5666/(0.98 *[sqrrt(2 *1800 * 981] * 3.1416] ) = 0.979 cm diameter
= 9.79 mm SINGLE NOZZLE

I believe that the turbine diameter is lower, making the RPM higher .

The generator you have may not be the one for such turbine.
Due to the low number of buckets the efficiency may be much lower, as well

The site available Max power : 18 * 5.67 * 6 = 612, I expect 400 watts due to
the turbine

Nando

----- Original Message -----
From: truespace234
To: microhydro@yahoogro ups.com
Sent: Tuesday, November 10, 2009 2:49 AM
Subject: [microhydro] pelton wheel calculations

Hi,

I am looking for help to calculate some of the parameters of the micro hydro
project I am setting up. Here are the parameters I have so far:

pelton wheel: 8.03 inches in diameter (204 mm) with 12 die-cast aluminum cups

source of pelton wheel: ebay auction:
http://cgi.ebay. com/Pelton- Water-Wheel- Aluminum- Generator- Projects_
W0QQitemZ1903467 83999

head height of water: 60 feet (18 meters)

minimum water flow rate: 227 litres per minute (60 GPM)

maximum water flow rate: 340 litres per minute (90 GPM)

size of pipe: 4 inches

length of pipe: 300 feet (91 meters)

I am planning on using a brushless DC high voltage generator
to yield high efficiency as well as low electrical wiring costs.
The brushless DC motor I have is rated at maximum 1200watts and is 3phase and
runs at about 300VDC rectified at 250RPM.
The main parameter I am missing is the nozzle size I should use as
well as the most efficient RPM to spin the generator at. I will probably use
gearing to the motor, since it should spin slower than the pelton wheel I think.

nozzle size: ?(one or two nozzle configuration)

pelton wheel RPM: ?

Thanks for any input! :)

cheers,
Jamie

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]











[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Agreed, at least in part. I do not agree with your inference that something
needs to be done to pass judgement on Ginnee. Time to turn your other cheek,
Ron. Put this behind you and move on.

It does not make sense for you to do business with Ginnee, and she has made it
apparent that she does not want to do business with you.

So, since you have not shipped anything just give her a refund.

I would be happy to be a go-between to make sure it happens fairly.

Otto Rike wrote at 01:11 PM 11/10/2009:

>Regarding Ginnee Hancock's claims
>that I deliberately led her to believe I was selling her bronze
>turgos with the intention of sending aluminum:
>Â Â  Some
>of you might have noticed that she announced right away that she did
>not intend to present the relevant emails regarding this matter.
>
>Â So, she expected you to pass judgment on a serious
>accusation regarding an original member of this group based on no
>more than her word, something which, as we saw, several of you were quite
willing
>to do.
>Â Â  For any of the membership who are actually
>interested in the facts of this case I am more than happy to present
>ALL of the email correspondence, although it actually  only
>requires one or two to prove that Ginnee's accusations are false and
>malicious, and by whom they were inspired.
>Â  They also show
>that the statements made by "Nando" are false as well,
>beginning with his claim that he and Joseph Hartvigsen only learned
>of Ginnee's existence some time after she had ordered the aluminum
>turgos from me.
>Â The group archives show "Nando"
>offering her advice on Oct 2. 2007.
>
>Â Â  Where I come
>from it only takes one lie to make a man (or woman) a liar.
>Â Â Â
>
> Since Ginnee has asked the group to pass judgment on this
>matter, what should be done if after having given the matter serious
>consideration the members decide she has knowingly made false and
>highly damaging accusations to the worldwide microhydro community,
>(and what about those who inspired her to do so)?
>
>Â Ron
>Davis
> watermotor.net
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>--- On Fri, 11/6/09, Bill Sepmeier <bill@...> wrote:
>
>From: Bill Sepmeier <bill@...>
>Subject: [microhydro] He needs help, alright.
>To: microhydro@yahoogroups.com
>Date: Friday, November 6, 2009, 3:14 PM
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>Â
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>      At 06:30 PM 11/4/2009, you wrote:
>
>>
>
>>
>
>>Wim Klunne,world class [edited] !
>
>
>
>Now there's a stable individual ... spamming the forum with insults
>
>to the moderator rather than addressing the issue.  Oh yeah.  Must be
>
>a real slow day in BFE.
>
>
>
>Perhaps El Flako could find time to update his web site, add
>
>something besides a local newspaper article from over a decade ago,
>
>if he's got nothing to do. Or deliver a working product to the poor
>
>folks who can't spot the problems with a business website that still
>
>has 1999 content online and a "yahoo" email contact address (which my
>
>cats both have - anybody can get a yahoo email account).
>
>
>
>It's a shame ... the "watermotor" concept powered America's early
>
>industrial revolution; direct mechanical energy is a proven
>
>concept.  Not exactly patentable though - anybody could attach a
>
>decent turgo or Pelton runner to a shaft and take power off with a
>
>few pulleys - after all, they were doing it before the American
>
>revolution.  Ran entire mills this way.  Perhaps it's time someone
>
>reputable and stable did so again.  If they do, I'm sure this Ginnee
>
>person would love to evaluate the beta product.  Let's see ... a
>
>runner on a short shaft in a steel box, 4 small pipes-as-jets and a
>
>sealed over-the-counter bearing on each end. A couple of pulleys for
>
>power take off.  Cost of materials and labor to build - maybe
>
>$150.  Anybody want to jump into this business? Or is El Flako's free
>
>time due to the lack of any market for this thing, other than in his
>
>own head?
>
>
>
>Wim ... we've never met, but my apologies to you on this guy's
>
>behalf, since he's obviously spent too much time by himself in a hot
>
>and overly humid climate.  Perhaps you could block his ISP's entire
>
>subnetwork mask?
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>------------------------------------
>
>Does your company feature in the microhydro business directory at
http://microhydropower.net/directory ? If not, please register free of charge
and be exposed to the microhydro community world wide!
>
>NOTE: The advertisements in this email are added by Yahoogroups who provides us
with free email group services. The microhydro-group does not endorse products
or support the advertisements in any way.
>
>More information on micro hydropower at http://microhydropower.net
>
>To unsubscribe: send empty message to
microhydro-unsubscribe@...! Groups Links
>
>
>

Regarding Ginnee Hancock's claims
that I deliberately led her to believe I was selling her bronze
turgos with the intention of sending aluminum:
   Some
of you might have noticed that she announced right away that she did
not intend to present the relevant emails regarding this matter.

 So, she expected you to pass judgment on a serious
accusation regarding an original member of this group based on no
more than her word, something which, as we saw, several of you were quite
willing
to do.
   For any of the membership who are actually
interested in the facts of this case I am more than happy to present
ALL of the email correspondence, although it actually  only
requires one or two to prove that Ginnee's accusations are false and
malicious, and by whom they were inspired.
  They also show
that the statements made by "Nando" are false as well,
beginning with his claim that he and Joseph Hartvigsen only learned
of Ginnee's existence some time after she had ordered the aluminum
turgos from me.
 The group archives show "Nando"
offering her advice on Oct 2. 2007.

   Where I come
from it only takes one lie to make a man (or woman) a liar.
   

  Since Ginnee has asked the group to pass judgment on this
matter, what should be done if after having given the matter serious
consideration the members decide she has knowingly made false and
highly damaging accusations to the worldwide microhydro community,
(and what about those who inspired her to do so)?

 Ron
Davis
  watermotor.net














--- On Fri, 11/6/09, Bill Sepmeier <bill@...> wrote:

From: Bill Sepmeier <bill@...>
Subject: [microhydro] He needs help, alright.
To: microhydro@yahoogroups.com
Date: Friday, November 6, 2009, 3:14 PM







 









       At 06:30 PM 11/4/2009, you wrote:

>

>

>Wim Klunne,world class [edited] !



Now there's a stable individual ... spamming the forum with insults

to the moderator rather than addressing the issue.  Oh yeah.  Must be

a real slow day in BFE.



Perhaps El Flako could find time to update his web site, add

something besides a local newspaper article from over a decade ago,

if he's got nothing to do. Or deliver a working product to the poor

folks who can't spot the problems with a business website that still

has 1999 content online and a "yahoo" email contact address (which my

cats both have - anybody can get a yahoo email account).



It's a shame ... the "watermotor" concept powered America's early

industrial revolution; direct mechanical energy is a proven

concept.  Not exactly patentable though - anybody could attach a

decent turgo or Pelton runner to a shaft and take power off with a

few pulleys - after all, they were doing it before the American

revolution.  Ran entire mills this way.  Perhaps it's time someone

reputable and stable did so again.  If they do, I'm sure this Ginnee

person would love to evaluate the beta product.  Let's see ... a

runner on a short shaft in a steel box, 4 small pipes-as-jets and a

sealed over-the-counter bearing on each end. A couple of pulleys for

power take off.  Cost of materials and labor to build - maybe

$150.  Anybody want to jump into this business? Or is El Flako's free

time due to the lack of any market for this thing, other than in his

own head?



Wim ... we've never met, but my apologies to you on this guy's

behalf, since he's obviously spent too much time by himself in a hot

and overly humid climate.  Perhaps you could block his ISP's entire

subnetwork mask?

























[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Jamie:

I checked with the eBay member selling the pelton and the report was that it is
the overall diameter of the turbine.

Due to what is shown in eBay member selling page and the facts that he reports
ONLY the overall diameter and the wheel shown clearly has too FEW BUCKETS, is
logical to know that he does not know anything about hydro though it seems made
by the member.

I would not acquire such turbine

I took the Pelton picture and measurements trying to find the pressure point =
165 mm estimated

The true RPM is going to be much higher to the diameters ratio and such view it
seems to be around 204/165 * 880 = 1088 RPM.

Nando


   ----- Original Message -----
   From: Nando
   To: microhydro@yahoogroups.com
   Cc: jmorken@...
   Sent: Tuesday, November 10, 2009 11:31 AM
   Subject: Re: [microhydro] pelton wheel calculations


   Jamie:

   Can you send to me the specifications , brand and model of your brushless DC
motor and where there are more of those  ?

   The Pelton Turbine shown has problems:

   NOT enough buckets, they are too far apart.
   It looks that instead of 12, 16 buckets are needed  ( lower efficiency).
   The bucket tip open area determines the maximum diameter of the Jet.


   The Buckets are placed radially and for better efficiency and water exiting
the bucket plane needs to be at an angle in reference to the radius that could
go, as high as, 30 degrees

   You need to KNOW the true pressure diameter and not the overall diameter of
it, to be able to calculate the RPM generated with the head you have.

   If diameter is right the RPM would be: in cms

   RPM= 60 * ( {0.49*[SQRRT( 1800 *2 * 981)]}/(3.1416 *20) ) = 880 RPM

   You have  5.66 l/s = 5666 CM^3/S

   NOZZLE D =Nd = 5666/(0.98 *[sqrrt(2 *1800 * 981] * 3.1416] ) = 0.979 cm
diameter = 9.79 mm SINGLE NOZZLE

   I believe that the turbine diameter is lower, making the RPM higher .

   The generator you have may not be the one for such turbine.
   Due to the low number of buckets the efficiency may be much lower, as well

   The site available Max power : 18 * 5.67 * 6 = 612, I expect 400 watts due to
the turbine

   Nando



     ----- Original Message -----
     From: truespace234
     To: microhydro@yahoogroups.com
     Sent: Tuesday, November 10, 2009 2:49 AM
     Subject: [microhydro] pelton wheel calculations



     Hi,

     I am looking for help to calculate some of the parameters of the micro hydro
project I am setting up. Here are the parameters I have so far:

     pelton wheel: 8.03 inches in diameter (204 mm) with 12 die-cast aluminum
cups

     source of pelton wheel: ebay auction:
    
http://cgi.ebay.com/Pelton-Water-Wheel-Aluminum-Generator-Projects_W0QQitemZ1903\
46783999

     head height of water: 60 feet (18 meters)

     minimum water flow rate: 227 litres per minute (60 GPM)

     maximum water flow rate: 340 litres per minute (90 GPM)

     size of pipe: 4 inches

     length of pipe: 300 feet (91 meters)

     I am planning on using a brushless DC high voltage generator
     to yield high efficiency as well as low electrical wiring costs.
     The brushless DC motor I have is rated at maximum 1200watts and is 3phase
and runs at about 300VDC rectified at 250RPM.
     The main parameter I am missing is the nozzle size I should use as
     well as the most efficient RPM to spin the generator at. I will probably use
gearing to the motor, since it should spin slower than the pelton wheel I think.

     nozzle size: ?(one or two nozzle configuration)

     pelton wheel RPM: ?

     Thanks for any input! :)

     cheers,
     Jamie





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Jamie:

Can you send to me the specifications , brand and model of your brushless DC
motor and where there are more of those  ?

The Pelton Turbine shown has problems:

NOT enough buckets, they are too far apart.
It looks that instead of 12, 16 buckets are needed  ( lower efficiency).
The bucket tip open area determines the maximum diameter of the Jet.


The Buckets are placed radially and for better efficiency and water exiting the
bucket plane needs to be at an angle in reference to the radius that could go,
as high as, 30 degrees

You need to KNOW the true pressure diameter and not the overall diameter of it,
to be able to calculate the RPM generated with the head you have.

If diameter is right the RPM would be: in cms

RPM= 60 * ( {0.49*[SQRRT( 1800 *2 * 981)]}/(3.1416 *20) ) = 880 RPM

You have  5.66 l/s = 5666 CM^3/S

NOZZLE D =Nd = 5666/(0.98 *[sqrrt(2 *1800 * 981] * 3.1416] ) = 0.979 cm diameter
= 9.79 mm SINGLE NOZZLE

I believe that the turbine diameter is lower, making the RPM higher .

The generator you have may not be the one for such turbine.
Due to the low number of buckets the efficiency may be much lower, as well

The site available Max power : 18 * 5.67 * 6 = 612, I expect 400 watts due to
the turbine

Nando



   ----- Original Message -----
   From: truespace234
   To: microhydro@yahoogroups.com
   Sent: Tuesday, November 10, 2009 2:49 AM
   Subject: [microhydro] pelton wheel calculations



   Hi,

   I am looking for help to calculate some of the parameters of the micro hydro
project I am setting up. Here are the parameters I have so far:

   pelton wheel: 8.03 inches in diameter (204 mm) with 12 die-cast aluminum cups

   source of pelton wheel: ebay auction:
  
http://cgi.ebay.com/Pelton-Water-Wheel-Aluminum-Generator-Projects_W0QQitemZ1903\
46783999

   head height of water: 60 feet (18 meters)

   minimum water flow rate: 227 litres per minute (60 GPM)

   maximum water flow rate: 340 litres per minute (90 GPM)

   size of pipe: 4 inches

   length of pipe: 300 feet (91 meters)

   I am planning on using a brushless DC high voltage generator
   to yield high efficiency as well as low electrical wiring costs.
   The brushless DC motor I have is rated at maximum 1200watts and is 3phase and
runs at about 300VDC rectified at 250RPM.
   The main parameter I am missing is the nozzle size I should use as
   well as the most efficient RPM to spin the generator at. I will probably use
gearing to the motor, since it should spin slower than the pelton wheel I think.

   nozzle size: ?(one or two nozzle configuration)

   pelton wheel RPM: ?

   Thanks for any input! :)

   cheers,
   Jamie





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

  The line "Nando"  is repeating regarding copyrights comes directly from
Joseph Hartvigsen. This is what Hartvigsen has been telling the group for the
last four years, since Dec. 12, 05 (since removed by Klunne) in order to
convince the membership that he and his "partner" Peter Ruyter owned the turgo
design.

http://www.mail-archive.com/microhydro@yahoogroups.com/msg01659.html

 I checked with the Swedish patent office and they told me exactly what
Johannes is saying. So did my patent lawyer:
Copyright does not apply to functioning machine parts, but Wim Klunne in his
wisdom would not allow me to reply to the group. It is strange that Hartvigsen
could make such an error because he has received special training in
understanding and using intellectual property rights from his company. 
Since we are on this subject, 
  neither Hartvigsen nor Ruyter has ever been able to prove there is any such
person as the widow Ingela Carlson, from whom they claim  Ruyter purchased the
turgo design "copyright", or when or where this transaction took place, as much
as it would be in their interest to do so.
 In fact, they can't even tell us the name of the inventor.
  The Swedish National Police, and the Swedish Microhydro Association knows of
no such person. A reward offered in eleven Swedish newspapers, and to five
detective agencies has failed to turn up either Hartvigsen's widow or any trace
of her inventor husband.
  Yet this story is the basis of Hartvigsen's repeated statements to this group
and the microhydro community over the last four years in proof (the only
"proof") of their design ownership, last made in March of this year, and that my
turbines are "illegal", to which I was not allowed to reply by Wim Klunne.
 THIS is what Hartvigsen and "Nando"  have used to destroy our Watermotor
project.


 Ron Davis
 watermotor.net
  
 
--- On Tue, 11/10/09, yheinola <yheinola@...> wrote:

From: yheinola <yheinola@...>
Subject: [microhydro] Re: Patents and copyrights
To: microhydro@yahoogroups.com
Date: Tuesday, November 10, 2009, 9:35 AM







 











Hello Nando,



Please, remember that I have only expressed my opinion shortly and then

given a couple of quotations from the websites of the US government

offices. I'm very sorry if that offends you.



I don't pretend to be a lawyer of any kind. How the US law is

`utilized' doesn't concern me at all. The information from

the US government websites is clear enough for me.



I know a lot of piracy and illegal copying takes place in the world. By

any means I don't support that. But we wouldn't solve that

problem by spreading inaccurate information concerning copyrights. I

don't want to impose my ideas to anybody, that's why I give the

references to official information sources for everyone to read by

themselves.



I hoped that you would read my message and the quotations up to the end.

You interpreted the phrase "and certain other intellectual

works" as it would cover all or "any" intellectual works

including machines and machine parts. However, the second quotation from

the USPTO clearly excludes the machine designs from copyrights:



"The copyright protects the form of expression rather than the

subject matter of the writing. For example, a description of a machine

could be copyrighted, but this would only prevent others from copying

the description; it would not prevent others from writing a description

of their own or from making and using the machine."



The statement is clear. When I make a machine design, the copyright will

protect my drawing but the design itself is not protected. The copyright

prevents others from copying or selling my drawing but doesn't

prevent anybody from making the machine exactly according my design.



I agree with you that the discussion on this topic shouldn't

continue long, since the matter doesn't concern the MHP community

unless we start to write books or do artistic works etc.



I just expected that you would support your opinion with a clear

statement from some official source of information. In conclusion I

still wait two things from you:



1)      Please give official information and a link to support your

stand.



2)      Explain what is the use of the patent system if all the

technical designs are already protected by copyright.



When these two topics get satisfactory answer, we will easily and

happily agree on this matter.



Thanking for your interest in discussion,



Johannes



http://www.uspto. gov/patents/ basics/index. html

<http://www.uspto. gov/patents/ basics/index. html>



--- In microhydro@yahoogro ups.com, "Nando" <nando37@... > wrote:

>

> I knew that I was opening a big CAN of Worms !!

>

> Unhappily, too many will try to show that they are "lawyers"

specialized in intellectual property laws.

>

> Start by investigating how many times this law was "utilized" to solve

the problems covering the law and how many of those did cover "Physical

tangible form of expression".

>

> If you have known it, your message should not have "existed" at all.

>

> You copied a part:

> Copyright is a form of protection provided by the laws of the United

States (title 17, U.S. Code) to the authors of "original works of

authorship," including literary, dramatic, musical, artistic, and

certain other intellectual works.

>

> Last part of the messages = and certain other intellectual works --

this alone says if someone invented something and that represents a

"physical tangible form of expression" then it is protected !!!

>

> Which includes any physical object --

>

> These are not my words or my "analysis " of the law, which by

definition I am not doing it, not I want it, because I am not a lawyer.

>

> Since this thread will not have any end -- due to the human nature --

I will be not continue with the thread -- it is senseless .

>

> Nando

>

>

>   ----- Original Message -----

>   From: yheinola

>   To: microhydro@yahoogro ups.com

>   Sent: Monday, November 09, 2009 2:44 AM

>   Subject: Re: [microhydro] Patents and copyrights

>

>

>

>   Dear Mr. Nando,

>

>   Do you mean that the US Patent and Trademark Office don't know

patents and copyrights?

>   I did read your messages. The official information that I have seen,

including the links in your messages, don't mention technical

innovations in connection to copyrights. Neither there are any words

about machines or technology. Please, see the partial quotation from the

link in your own message.

>   (http://www.uspto. gov/smallbusines s/copyrights/ faq.html# 2)

>

>   --- Beginning of quotation ---

>

>   WHAT IS A COPYRIGHT?

>

>   Copyright is a form of protection provided by the laws of the United

States (title 17, U.S. Code) to the authors of "original works of

authorship," including literary, dramatic, musical, artistic, and

certain other intellectual works. This protection is available to both

published and unpublished works. Section 106 of the 1976 Copyright Act

generally gives the owner of copyright the exclusive right to do and to

authorize others to do the following:

>   . To reproduce the work in copies or phonorecords;

>   . To prepare derivative works based upon the work;

>   . To distribute copies or phonorecords of the work to the public by

sale or other transfer of ownership, or by rental, lease, or lending;

>   . To perform the work publicly, in the case of literary, musical,

dramatic, and choreographic works, pantomimes, and motion pictures and

other audiovisual works;

>   . To display the copyrighted work publicly, in the case of literary,

musical, dramatic, and choreographic works, pantomimes, and pictorial,

graphic, or sculptural works, including the individual images of a

motion picture or other audiovisual work; and

>   . In the case of sound recordings, to perform the work publicly by

means of a digital audio transmission.

>   ------------ --------- ----

>

>   WHAT WORKS ARE PROTECTED?

>

>   Copyright protects "original works of authorship" that are fixed in

a tangible form of expression. The fixation need not be directly

perceptible so long as it may be communicated with the aid of a machine

or device. Copyrightable works include the following categories:

>   . literary works;

>   . musical works, including any accompanying words

>   . dramatic works, including any accompanying music

>   . pantomimes and choreographic works

>   . pictorial, graphic, and sculptural works

>   . motion pictures and other audiovisual works

>   . sound recordings

>   . architectural works

>

>   --- End of quotation ---

>

>   The following information is from The United States Patent and

Trademark Office (USPTO)

>   http://www.uspto. gov/patents/ basics/index. html

>

>   --- Beginning of quotation ---

>

>   WHAT ARE PATENTS, TRADEMARKS, SERVICEMARKS, AND COPYRIGHTS?

>

>   Some people confuse patents, copyrights, and trademarks. Although

there may be some similarities among these kinds of intellectual

property protection, they are different and serve different purposes.

>

>   WHAT IS A PATENT?

>

>   A patent for an invention is the grant of a property right to the

inventor, issued by the United States Patent and Trademark Office.

Generally, the term of a new patent is 20 years from the date on which

the application for the patent was filed in the United States or, in

special cases, from the date an earlier related application was filed,

subject to the payment of maintenance fees. U.S. patent grants are

effective only within the United States, U.S. territories, and U.S.

possessions. Under certain circumstances, patent term extensions or

adjustments may be available.

>

>   The right conferred by the patent grant is, in the language of the

statute and of the grant itself, "the right to exclude others from

making, using, offering for sale, or selling" the invention in the

United States or "importing" the invention into the United States. What

is granted is not the right to make, use, offer for sale, sell or

import, but the right to exclude others from making, using, offering for

sale, selling or importing the invention. Once a patent is issued, the

patentee must enforce the patent without aid of the USPTO.

>   ------------ ---------

>

>   WHAT IS A COPYRIGHT?

>

>   Copyright is a form of protection provided to the authors of

"original works of authorship" including literary, dramatic, musical,

artistic, and certain other intellectual works, both published and

unpublished. The 1976 Copyright Act generally gives the owner of

copyright the exclusive right to reproduce the copyrighted work, to

prepare derivative works, to distribute copies or phonorecords of the

copyrighted work, to perform the copyrighted work publicly, or to

display the copyrighted work publicly.

>

>   The copyright protects the form of expression rather than the

subject matter of the writing. For example, a description of a machine

could be copyrighted, but this would only prevent others from copying

the description; it would not prevent others from writing a description

of their own or from making and using the machine. Copyrights are

registered by the Copyright Office of the Library of Congress.

>

>   --- End of quotation ---

>

>   Greetings,

>   Johannes

>

>

>

>

>

> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

>



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

























[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

You have not offended me !!
If You think that you did because my writing, I am asking for forgiveness, I did
not mean to imply such thought.

A fast reply -- like I said, I will not continue with this thread it will last
for ever and right now I am tooooooo busy to spend a lot of time with this
thread.

I am not going to search to give you information, I have not kept past records
on this subject  -- do your own if you like to proceed with it and maybe better
ask lawyers experts in the law, specially those within the copyright law

This is an endless thread , specifically wanted by one or two fellows in the
group.

No further commentaries from me.

Nando


   ----- Original Message -----
   From: yheinola
   To: microhydro@yahoogroups.com
   Sent: Tuesday, November 10, 2009 3:35 AM
   Subject: [microhydro] Re: Patents and copyrights




   Hello Nando,

   Please, remember that I have only expressed my opinion shortly and then
   given a couple of quotations from the websites of the US government
   offices. I'm very sorry if that offends you.

   I don't pretend to be a lawyer of any kind. How the US law is
   `utilized' doesn't concern me at all. The information from
   the US government websites is clear enough for me.

   I know a lot of piracy and illegal copying takes place in the world. By
   any means I don't support that. But we wouldn't solve that
   problem by spreading inaccurate information concerning copyrights. I
   don't want to impose my ideas to anybody, that's why I give the
   references to official information sources for everyone to read by
   themselves.

   I hoped that you would read my message and the quotations up to the end.
   You interpreted the phrase "and certain other intellectual
   works" as it would cover all or "any" intellectual works
   including machines and machine parts. However, the second quotation from
   the USPTO clearly excludes the machine designs from copyrights:

   "The copyright protects the form of expression rather than the
   subject matter of the writing. For example, a description of a machine
   could be copyrighted, but this would only prevent others from copying
   the description; it would not prevent others from writing a description
   of their own or from making and using the machine."

   The statement is clear. When I make a machine design, the copyright will
   protect my drawing but the design itself is not protected. The copyright
   prevents others from copying or selling my drawing but doesn't
   prevent anybody from making the machine exactly according my design.

   I agree with you that the discussion on this topic shouldn't
   continue long, since the matter doesn't concern the MHP community
   unless we start to write books or do artistic works etc.

   I just expected that you would support your opinion with a clear
   statement from some official source of information. In conclusion I
   still wait two things from you:

   1) Please give official information and a link to support your
   stand.

   2) Explain what is the use of the patent system if all the
   technical designs are already protected by copyright.

   When these two topics get satisfactory answer, we will easily and
   happily agree on this matter.

   Thanking for your interest in discussion,

   Johannes

   http://www.uspto.gov/patents/basics/index.html
   <http://www.uspto.gov/patents/basics/index.html>

   --- In microhydro@yahoogroups.com, "Nando" <nando37@...> wrote:
   >
   > I knew that I was opening a big CAN of Worms !!
   >
   > Unhappily, too many will try to show that they are "lawyers"
   specialized in intellectual property laws.
   >
   > Start by investigating how many times this law was "utilized" to solve
   the problems covering the law and how many of those did cover "Physical
   tangible form of expression".
   >
   > If you have known it, your message should not have "existed" at all.
   >
   > You copied a part:
   > Copyright is a form of protection provided by the laws of the United
   States (title 17, U.S. Code) to the authors of "original works of
   authorship," including literary, dramatic, musical, artistic, and
   certain other intellectual works.
   >
   > Last part of the messages = and certain other intellectual works --
   this alone says if someone invented something and that represents a
   "physical tangible form of expression" then it is protected !!!
   >
   > Which includes any physical object --
   >
   > These are not my words or my "analysis " of the law, which by
   definition I am not doing it, not I want it, because I am not a lawyer.
   >
   > Since this thread will not have any end -- due to the human nature --
   I will be not continue with the thread -- it is senseless .
   >
   > Nando
   >
   >
   > ----- Original Message -----
   > From: yheinola
   > To: microhydro@yahoogroups.com
   > Sent: Monday, November 09, 2009 2:44 AM
   > Subject: Re: [microhydro] Patents and copyrights
   >
   >
   >
   > Dear Mr. Nando,
   >
   > Do you mean that the US Patent and Trademark Office don't know
   patents and copyrights?
   > I did read your messages. The official information that I have seen,
   including the links in your messages, don't mention technical
   innovations in connection to copyrights. Neither there are any words
   about machines or technology. Please, see the partial quotation from the
   link in your own message.
   > (http://www.uspto.gov/smallbusiness/copyrights/faq.html#2)
   >
   > --- Beginning of quotation ---
   >
   > WHAT IS A COPYRIGHT?
   >
   > Copyright is a form of protection provided by the laws of the United
   States (title 17, U.S. Code) to the authors of "original works of
   authorship," including literary, dramatic, musical, artistic, and
   certain other intellectual works. This protection is available to both
   published and unpublished works. Section 106 of the 1976 Copyright Act
   generally gives the owner of copyright the exclusive right to do and to
   authorize others to do the following:
   > . To reproduce the work in copies or phonorecords;
   > . To prepare derivative works based upon the work;
   > . To distribute copies or phonorecords of the work to the public by
   sale or other transfer of ownership, or by rental, lease, or lending;
   > . To perform the work publicly, in the case of literary, musical,
   dramatic, and choreographic works, pantomimes, and motion pictures and
   other audiovisual works;
   > . To display the copyrighted work publicly, in the case of literary,
   musical, dramatic, and choreographic works, pantomimes, and pictorial,
   graphic, or sculptural works, including the individual images of a
   motion picture or other audiovisual work; and
   > . In the case of sound recordings, to perform the work publicly by
   means of a digital audio transmission.
   > -------------------------
   >
   > WHAT WORKS ARE PROTECTED?
   >
   > Copyright protects "original works of authorship" that are fixed in
   a tangible form of expression. The fixation need not be directly
   perceptible so long as it may be communicated with the aid of a machine
   or device. Copyrightable works include the following categories:
   > . literary works;
   > . musical works, including any accompanying words
   > . dramatic works, including any accompanying music
   > . pantomimes and choreographic works
   > . pictorial, graphic, and sculptural works
   > . motion pictures and other audiovisual works
   > . sound recordings
   > . architectural works
   >
   > --- End of quotation ---
   >
   > The following information is from The United States Patent and
   Trademark Office (USPTO)
   > http://www.uspto.gov/patents/basics/index.html
   >
   > --- Beginning of quotation ---
   >
   > WHAT ARE PATENTS, TRADEMARKS, SERVICEMARKS, AND COPYRIGHTS?
   >
   > Some people confuse patents, copyrights, and trademarks. Although
   there may be some similarities among these kinds of intellectual
   property protection, they are different and serve different purposes.
   >
   > WHAT IS A PATENT?
   >
   > A patent for an invention is the grant of a property right to the
   inventor, issued by the United States Patent and Trademark Office.
   Generally, the term of a new patent is 20 years from the date on which
   the application for the patent was filed in the United States or, in
   special cases, from the date an earlier related application was filed,
   subject to the payment of maintenance fees. U.S. patent grants are
   effective only within the United States, U.S. territories, and U.S.
   possessions. Under certain circumstances, patent term extensions or
   adjustments may be available.
   >
   > The right conferred by the patent grant is, in the language of the
   statute and of the grant itself, "the right to exclude others from
   making, using, offering for sale, or selling" the invention in the
   United States or "importing" the invention into the United States. What
   is granted is not the right to make, use, offer for sale, sell or
   import, but the right to exclude others from making, using, offering for
   sale, selling or importing the invention. Once a patent is issued, the
   patentee must enforce the patent without aid of the USPTO.
   > ---------------------
   >
   > WHAT IS A COPYRIGHT?
   >
   > Copyright is a form of protection provided to the authors of
   "original works of authorship" including literary, dramatic, musical,
   artistic, and certain other intellectual works, both published and
   unpublished. The 1976 Copyright Act generally gives the owner of
   copyright the exclusive right to reproduce the copyrighted work, to
   prepare derivative works, to distribute copies or phonorecords of the
   copyrighted work, to perform the copyrighted work publicly, or to
   display the copyrighted work publicly.
   >
   > The copyright protects the form of expression rather than the
   subject matter of the writing. For example, a description of a machine
   could be copyrighted, but this would only prevent others from copying
   the description; it would not prevent others from writing a description
   of their own or from making and using the machine. Copyrights are
   registered by the Copyright Office of the Library of Congress.
   >
   > --- End of quotation ---
   >
   > Greetings,
   > Johannes
   >
   >
   >
   >
   >
   > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
   >

   [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

CONRAD:

it seems that the angle needs to be around 30 or so degrees.

water velocity = H20v = sqrrt( 2 * 75.5 * 9.81) = 38.48 m/s

RPM=(60 * 0.49 * 38.48 * 100 ) / [3.1416 * 35.5]= 1014 RPM

The alternator you have is for a wind mill and not a hydro

You may use a ECM DC brushless motor, 1 HP --producing high voltage, though you
can open one and change the windings to lower the output voltage. A GE ECM could
be one.

The Head of this site is geared toward a high RPM generator if the turbine is
changed to produce around 3600 RPM ( 90 mm turbine = in this case a Turgo
turbine see them at www.h-hydro.com )

Nando

   ----- Original Message -----
   From: Conrad Wood
   To: microhydro@yahoogroups.com
   Sent: Monday, November 09, 2009 5:56 PM
   Subject: Re: [microhydro] Pelton wheel design



   Nando,

   I live on rental property that allows my micro-hydro discovery hobby. I do not
require the electricity, yet.
   I have built the alternator from scratch already and want to test it in a
variety of circumstances. Currently....

   Head        75.5 meters
   Penstock    153 meters x 76mm
   Flow low    .25 l/sec
   Flow high    1.25 l/sec.
   Alternator rpm   90

   My bucket back angle is 12 degrees +-, wheel diameter to bucket cut is 355mm
+-

   It is fairly easy for me to adjust the spacing of this wheel, more difficult
to change the diameter.

   Best Regards,

   Conrad.

   ________________________________
   From: Nando <nando37@...>
   To: microhydro@yahoogroups.com
   Cc: ranhudro@...
   Sent: Sun, November 8, 2009 8:06:20 PM
   Subject: Re: [microhydro] Pelton wheel design


   CONRAD:

   Initially I paid little attention to the Pelton water Jet behavior and it was
bugging me so the first free time I had did another careful check of your video
and found out what was bugging me.

   The Pelton Buckets are not placed right to the jet, observe when the jet
starts to hit the bucket and the water goes up toward the center , then when the
wheel is rotating the escaping jet from the buckets starts to spray toward down
.

   The Buckets itself can not be place straight radially, it has to have an angle
toward the back ( close to 15 to 25 degrees back) for the jet to reflect
straight back then downwards -- this way there is no interference with the jet
hitting 2 Buckets at the same time.

   The diameter of the wheel is wrong - the diameter of the wheel is defined by
the head or the pressure of the water and the needed RPM of the generator and in
you case, very critical parameters.

   If you supply to me the head, water volume, RPM of the generator, then I can
calculate the diameter of the turbine, which I believe may place the buckets you
have quite close.
   The efficiency will go up, the RPM and less problems trying to find a low RPM
generator .

   Nando

   ----- Original Message -----
   From: Nando
   To: microhydro@yahoogro ups.com
   Sent: Sunday, November 08, 2009 4:30 PM
   Subject: Re: [microhydro] Pelton wheel design

   CONRAD:

   Are you braking the turbine to slow the movement for the movie ?.

   The Pelton buckets are too far apart, they should be placed in such way that
the jet (lower part) should start to hit the incoming lower bucket when the jet
is still hitting the upper bucket with at least 80 % of the jet diameter, this
way the energy is maximized in the harvesting process.
   This at maximum jet diameter.

   Nando

   ----- Original Message -----
   From: Conrad Wood
   To: microhydro@yahoogro ups.com
   Sent: Sunday, November 08, 2009 1:34 PM
   Subject: [microhydro] Pelton wheel design

   Hello Group Members,
   As a hobby, I have built my first pelton wheel from scratch. I am interested
in the possibilities of low RPM alternators regarding pico site efficiencies.
   Please have a look at a short film clip I have uploaded to http://www.flickr.
com/photos/ ranhudro/ ?saved=1 and comment as to suggested improvements.
   Best Regards to All,
   Conrad Wood
   cw@woodcoconstructo rs.ca

   ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _
   Yahoo! Canada Toolbar: Search from anywhere on the web, and bookmark your
favourite sites. Download it now
   http://ca.toolbar. yahoo.com.

   [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

   [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

   __________________________________________________________
   Looking for the perfect gift? Give the gift of Flickr!

   http://www.flickr.com/gift/

   [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Goodmorning Steve:



Sorry I didn't catch this yesterday.



This entire concept of free flowing water not being able to be utilized to
capture signifigant amounts of power is just wrong.



The folks who have a classic background in hydraulics feel as though what they
learned in university hydraulic courses and manuals that was accepted
cirriculum, is basically all there is to know about water.



I am going to try to send you and the group a paper about a much dismissed
(formerly but now and gradually , incrementally understood, ) 
researcher,teacher ,observer, inventor.



A warning here, this is not easy stuff to get your head around, and you may have
to read some paragraphs 3 of 4 times before the concepts become lodged in your
thinking .  And even then you may have to revisit many sections to cement your
fledgling concepts with further revelations and with what you know by
experience.



Those of you have spent time fishing while standing in streams will have a
signifigant leg up.



It is never too late in life to go wading in streams and learn to be a observer.
(Just tell people that you are doing research).



This fellow is well reported on the web however I rather like the illustrations
in the particular paper that was forwarded to me a fellow microhydro group
member Noel Squibb from Dartmoor in south west England.



Thank you for your time.  David Murray  Paris Ontario Canada.  519-442-1503.



To: microhydro@yahoogroups.com
From: jrkess98@...
Date: Mon, 9 Nov 2009 21:13:40 -0500
Subject: Re: [microhydro] River property restrictions





Hi, Steve:
I am sure others will weigh in on this, but in general, without some kind
of 'head-raising' device (like a dam), you won't harvest more than maybe a
couple hundred watts, under any circumstance.
John Kessler, Ft. Lauderdale



In a message dated 11/9/2009 4:56:14 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
steven.d.morse@... writes:

Hello group,

I am looking for a retirement property for myself and also a community
property for my children. I have wanted to be off grid and self sustainable
since the 1970's. I am starting to look now for river front property because
I like micro-hydro power, irrigation, summer cooling and food resourses
available along the river.

I understand that local and federal laws (USA) may not allow private
development of micro-hydro or permanent structures to be built on many river
banks or along water ways. I want to know where to find legal restrictions/
limitations or if any exist so I can make an informed decision what
individual property is a good purchase for micro-hydro.

Are there creative legal ways to add micro-hydro where there are
restrictions and limitations? I would be most thankful for any help and
suggestions
and information to help narrow my search. I would prefer to find a property
in the South or Southeast USA where Solar is more efficient and winter
heating season is short.

Best regards
Steve Morse
Aerospace Engineer
Missouri USA

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





_________________________________________________________________
Ready. Set. Get a great deal on Windows 7. See fantastic deals on Windows 7 now
http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=9691818

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hello every body
I am a student who works on micro hydro turbine. I need to some book to be more
familiar with this subject, like the books on hydraulic machines by Vasabdani
and Jagdish, etc.
Can everybody help me to find thiese books?

Sincerely Yours

Hello Nando,

Please, remember that I have only expressed my opinion shortly and then
given a couple of quotations from the websites of the US government
offices. I'm very sorry if that offends you.

I don't pretend to be a lawyer of any kind. How the US law is
`utilized' doesn't concern me at all. The information from
the US government websites is clear enough for me.

I know a lot of piracy and illegal copying takes place in the world. By
any means I don't support that. But we wouldn't solve that
problem by spreading inaccurate information concerning copyrights. I
don't want to impose my ideas to anybody, that's why I give the
references to official information sources for everyone to read by
themselves.

I hoped that you would read my message and the quotations up to the end.
You interpreted the phrase "and certain other intellectual
works" as it would cover all or "any" intellectual works
including machines and machine parts. However, the second quotation from
the USPTO clearly excludes the machine designs from copyrights:

"The copyright protects the form of expression rather than the
subject matter of the writing. For example, a description of a machine
could be copyrighted, but this would only prevent others from copying
the description; it would not prevent others from writing a description
of their own or from making and using the machine."

The statement is clear. When I make a machine design, the copyright will
protect my drawing but the design itself is not protected. The copyright
prevents others from copying or selling my drawing but doesn't
prevent anybody from making the machine exactly according my design.

I agree with you that the discussion on this topic shouldn't
continue long, since the matter doesn't concern the MHP community
unless we start to write books or do artistic works etc.

I just expected that you would support your opinion with a clear
statement from some official source of information. In conclusion I
still wait two things from you:

1)      Please give official information and a link to support your
stand.

2)      Explain what is the use of the patent system if all the
technical designs are already protected by copyright.

When these two topics get satisfactory answer, we will easily and
happily agree on this matter.

Thanking for your interest in discussion,

Johannes

http://www.uspto.gov/patents/basics/index.html
<http://www.uspto.gov/patents/basics/index.html>



--- In microhydro@yahoogroups.com, "Nando" <nando37@...> wrote:
>
> I knew that I was opening a big CAN of Worms !!
>
> Unhappily, too many will try to show that they are "lawyers"
specialized in intellectual property laws.
>
> Start by investigating how many times this law was "utilized" to solve
the problems covering the law and how many of those did cover "Physical
tangible form of expression".
>
> If you have known it, your message should not have "existed" at all.
>
> You copied a part:
> Copyright is a form of protection provided by the laws of the United
States (title 17, U.S. Code) to the authors of "original works of
authorship," including literary, dramatic, musical, artistic, and
certain other intellectual works.
>
> Last part of the messages = and certain other intellectual works --
this alone says if someone invented something and that represents a
"physical tangible form of expression" then it is protected !!!
>
> Which includes any physical object --
>
> These are not my words or my "analysis " of the law, which by
definition I am not doing it, not I want it, because I am not a lawyer.
>
> Since this thread will not have any end -- due to the human nature --
I will be not continue with the thread -- it is senseless .
>
> Nando
>
>
>   ----- Original Message -----
>   From: yheinola
>   To: microhydro@yahoogroups.com
>   Sent: Monday, November 09, 2009 2:44 AM
>   Subject: Re: [microhydro] Patents and copyrights
>
>
>
>   Dear Mr. Nando,
>
>   Do you mean that the US Patent and Trademark Office don't know
patents and copyrights?
>   I did read your messages. The official information that I have seen,
including the links in your messages, don't mention technical
innovations in connection to copyrights. Neither there are any words
about machines or technology. Please, see the partial quotation from the
link in your own message.
>   (http://www.uspto.gov/smallbusiness/copyrights/faq.html#2)
>
>   --- Beginning of quotation ---
>
>   WHAT IS A COPYRIGHT?
>
>   Copyright is a form of protection provided by the laws of the United
States (title 17, U.S. Code) to the authors of "original works of
authorship," including literary, dramatic, musical, artistic, and
certain other intellectual works. This protection is available to both
published and unpublished works. Section 106 of the 1976 Copyright Act
generally gives the owner of copyright the exclusive right to do and to
authorize others to do the following:
>   . To reproduce the work in copies or phonorecords;
>   . To prepare derivative works based upon the work;
>   . To distribute copies or phonorecords of the work to the public by
sale or other transfer of ownership, or by rental, lease, or lending;
>   . To perform the work publicly, in the case of literary, musical,
dramatic, and choreographic works, pantomimes, and motion pictures and
other audiovisual works;
>   . To display the copyrighted work publicly, in the case of literary,
musical, dramatic, and choreographic works, pantomimes, and pictorial,
graphic, or sculptural works, including the individual images of a
motion picture or other audiovisual work; and
>   . In the case of sound recordings, to perform the work publicly by
means of a digital audio transmission.
>   -------------------------
>
>   WHAT WORKS ARE PROTECTED?
>
>   Copyright protects "original works of authorship" that are fixed in
a tangible form of expression. The fixation need not be directly
perceptible so long as it may be communicated with the aid of a machine
or device. Copyrightable works include the following categories:
>   . literary works;
>   . musical works, including any accompanying words
>   . dramatic works, including any accompanying music
>   . pantomimes and choreographic works
>   . pictorial, graphic, and sculptural works
>   . motion pictures and other audiovisual works
>   . sound recordings
>   . architectural works
>
>   --- End of quotation ---
>
>   The following information is from The United States Patent and
Trademark Office (USPTO)
>   http://www.uspto.gov/patents/basics/index.html
>
>   --- Beginning of quotation ---
>
>   WHAT ARE PATENTS, TRADEMARKS, SERVICEMARKS, AND COPYRIGHTS?
>
>   Some people confuse patents, copyrights, and trademarks. Although
there may be some similarities among these kinds of intellectual
property protection, they are different and serve different purposes.
>
>   WHAT IS A PATENT?
>
>   A patent for an invention is the grant of a property right to the
inventor, issued by the United States Patent and Trademark Office.
Generally, the term of a new patent is 20 years from the date on which
the application for the patent was filed in the United States or, in
special cases, from the date an earlier related application was filed,
subject to the payment of maintenance fees. U.S. patent grants are
effective only within the United States, U.S. territories, and U.S.
possessions. Under certain circumstances, patent term extensions or
adjustments may be available.
>
>   The right conferred by the patent grant is, in the language of the
statute and of the grant itself, "the right to exclude others from
making, using, offering for sale, or selling" the invention in the
United States or "importing" the invention into the United States. What
is granted is not the right to make, use, offer for sale, sell or
import, but the right to exclude others from making, using, offering for
sale, selling or importing the invention. Once a patent is issued, the
patentee must enforce the patent without aid of the USPTO.
>   ---------------------
>
>   WHAT IS A COPYRIGHT?
>
>   Copyright is a form of protection provided to the authors of
"original works of authorship" including literary, dramatic, musical,
artistic, and certain other intellectual works, both published and
unpublished. The 1976 Copyright Act generally gives the owner of
copyright the exclusive right to reproduce the copyrighted work, to
prepare derivative works, to distribute copies or phonorecords of the
copyrighted work, to perform the copyrighted work publicly, or to
display the copyrighted work publicly.
>
>   The copyright protects the form of expression rather than the
subject matter of the writing. For example, a description of a machine
could be copyrighted, but this would only prevent others from copying
the description; it would not prevent others from writing a description
of their own or from making and using the machine. Copyrights are
registered by the Copyright Office of the Library of Congress.
>
>   --- End of quotation ---
>
>   Greetings,
>   Johannes
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hi,

I am looking for help to calculate some of the parameters of the micro hydro
project I am setting up.  Here are the parameters I have so far:

pelton wheel: 8.03 inches in diameter (204 mm) with 12 die-cast aluminum cups

source of pelton wheel: ebay auction:
http://cgi.ebay.com/Pelton-Water-Wheel-Aluminum-Generator-Projects_W0QQitemZ1903\
46783999

head height of water: 60 feet (18 meters)

minimum water flow rate: 227 litres per minute (60 GPM)

maximum water flow rate: 340 litres per minute (90 GPM)

size of pipe: 4 inches

length of pipe: 300 feet (91 meters)

I am planning on using a brushless DC high voltage generator
to yield high efficiency as well as low electrical wiring costs.
The brushless DC motor I have is rated at maximum 1200watts and is 3phase and
runs at about 300VDC rectified at 250RPM.
The main parameter I am missing is the nozzle size I should use as
well as the most efficient RPM to spin the generator at.  I will probably use
gearing to the motor, since it should spin slower than the pelton wheel I think.

nozzle size: ?(one or two nozzle configuration)

pelton wheel RPM: ?

Thanks for any input! :)

cheers,
Jamie

Hello Eric,

I have made the alternator already, 80 pole, 40 coils. The bucket process took
me three tries to get an acceptable part.
Starting with a block of carving wax for the pattern, 2 component silicone
casting rubber as a mold. The buckets were then cast using a 2 part high impact
urethane casting resin which is vacuum degasseed, then pressure cast until
demold time.

Conrad.



________________________________
From: "ericnoharet@..." <ericnoharet@...>
To: microhydro@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Mon, November 9, 2009 12:25:47 AM
Subject: re:[microhydro] Pelton wheel design

 
Hello Conrad

You can make an alternator like the Pigott design
It's an axial flux design, you can use hard drive magnets.

How do you make your pelton buckets ?

Regards
Eric

Hello Group Members,
As a hobby, I have built my first pelton wheel from scratch. I am interested in
the possibilities of low RPM alternators regarding pico site efficiencies.
Please have a look at a short film clip I have uploaded to http://www.flickr.
com/photos/ ranhudro/ ?saved=1 and comment as to suggested improvements.
Best Regards to All,
Conrad Wood
cw@woodcoconstructo rs.ca





       __________________________________________________________________
Get the name you've always wanted @ymail.com or @rocketmail.com! Go to
http://ca.promos.yahoo.com/jacko/

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]