microhydro : Messages : 15920-15949 of 16665

Dear Deepak,

my reply comes a bit late because I was away from home and internet for
a week.

> My experience is some what bad
> in this subject. i.e. CFL's of more than 98% brands including 'Wipro'
> the popular brand dosen't last for more than 6 - 7 months.

Invest in lamps from better brands. Here in Chile I can buy Philips CFLs
at roughly 5 dollars each. They are pretty good. Westinghouse and
General Electric ones are cheaper, cause more radio interference, but
also work. Among the ones I can get here, Philips and Westinghouse are
both highly efficient, while General Electric are slightly less so.

Anyway, 6-7 months is a ridiculous lifespan! Don't buy any more of those
crap lamps. 6-7 YEARS, not months, would be the minimum acceptable
lifespan for a CFL used in typical home applications. Typically you can
expect more than that lifespan.

> Also about the light spectrum
> emitted from CFL's is some what different as the colors look
> different in the light of many CFL's.  Experts , please comment on
> this !

It's true, the spectrum from CFLs is totally different from that of glow
bulbs or sunlight.

There are two basic types of light sources: Blackbody radiators, and
spectral radiators. Blackbody radiators emit a continuous spectrum, that
has a smooth distribution peaking on a specific wavelength, that depends
on the temperature of the hot body. This body is assumed to be black,
therefore the name. Bodies that are not black can produce a slightly
different spectrum, but not by very much.

Glow bulb filaments operate at temperatures between about 2200 and 2700
Kelvin, so that's their "color temperature", as it is called. This is an
orange to yellow light. The sun has a surface temperature like 6000
Kelvin, so that is its color temperature. But sunlight arriving on earth
is filtered by the atmosphere. Shorter wavelengths are scattered
sidewards, longer ones pass more straight. That's why the sky looks
blue, and the sun looks light yellow. Pure sunlight arriving on earth
ranges from about 4000 Kelvin at noon, to less than 2000 Kelvin during
a bloody red sunset. The blue sky instead is like 14,000 Kelvin. If you
are in the shadow, lit by blue sky, you get this very bluish light. But
if you get a natural mix of direct sunlight and blue sky, you get about
6000 Kelvin at noon, less as the sun goes lower. On an overcast day, the
clouds mix the blue skylight with the yellow sunlight, and the mix is
again close to 6000 Kelvin at noon.

Spectral radiators instead can work cold. They work by exciting atoms,
and releasing energy quants (photons) as the atoms de-excite. The
wavelength of the light emitted depends on the exact substance that is
being excited. Several phosphor-based compounds are used in fluorescent
lights, and these several phosphors are mixed to give some radiation in
each of the ranges of the three basic colors, red, green and blue, to
which the human eye reacts. By altering the mix of phosphors, a
fluorescent lamp can be made to emit more or less light of each specific
color, and that affects its color balance. Normally fluorescent lamps
are also specified in color temperature, which is in this case the
temperature of a blackbody that would radiate the closest possible mix
of wavelengths. But this does not erase the fact that fluorescent lamps
emit only specific wavelengths, and not a continuous spectrum.

For this reason, the colors of an object can look different, or simply
plain wrong, under fluorescent light, as compared to daylight or even
glow light. If an object contains a dye that reflects a very only a very
specific wavelength of green, and your fluorescent lamp emits three
spectral lines in the green range, but none of those falling just on the
dye's resonance, then you will see the object being green in daylight
and in glow light, but black in fluorescent light! Likewise, a violet
object (blue plus red) that reflects a a range of red wavelengths that
is present in your fluorescent mix, but a range of blue wavelengths in
which the lamp does not radiate, will look red instead of violet in the
light of that fluorescent lamp. This can be a serious problem, fro
example for electronicians like myself, when trying to read the
color-coded values of resistors! Red and orange can often look exactly
the same in fluorescent light, and some other light source is needed to
read the value.

Fluorescent lamps have two important specifications for their color. One
is the already mentioned color temperature. The most typical ones are
2700 to 3300 Kelvin, usually called "warm white", intended to look
almost as orange/yellow as a glow lamp; then we have "daylight" or "cold
white", which is typically around 6500 Kelvin, and in between is the
color temperature that I personally like best, called "neutral white",
which is 4000 to 4500 Kelvin. Other color temperatures are also
manufactured, but are used in more specialized applications.

The other specification, often neglected, is the Color Rendering Index
(CRI). This is a percentual value, telling how well the spectrum from a
lamp matches the equivalent blackbody spectrum. Very poor fluorescent
lamps could be as bad as 60%, while most are better than 80%, with the
really good ones being above 90%. None of them can make 100%.

Some manufacturers use a three figure code, where the first figure is
the tens of the CRI, and the other two are the thousands and hundreds of
the color temperature. For example, a high quality fluorescent lamp that
has a CRI of 95% and a color temperature of 4000 Kelvin, would be coded
"940".

By the way, almost all of the above applies to white LEDs too. They use
phosphors, much the same as fluorescent lamps. Only that they are
excited by an ultraviolet or blue LED, instead of the ultraviolet
radiation from a low pressure mercury arc.

I wish I could find 940 type CFLs locally. The ones I have at present
are 840 and 865. Long straight fluorescent tubes are more easily found
in 940 color.

Manfred


========================
Visit my hobby homepage!
http://ludens.cl
========================

#15922

From: bill.allen@...
Date: Tue Jun 12, 2012 10:52 pm
Subject: Re: Re: energy saver compaign

ba5_1

I would 6-7 months is the life span I have been getting from what ever brand CFL
they sell at Home Depot.

-----Original Message-----
From: Manfred Mornhinweg <manfred@...>
Sender: microhydro@yahoogroups.com
Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2012 19:21:51
To: <microhydro@yahoogroups.com>
Reply-to: microhydro@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [microhydro] Re: energy saver compaign

Dear Deepak,

my reply comes a bit late because I was away from home and internet for
a week.

> My experience is some what bad
> in this subject. i.e. CFL's of more than 98% brands including 'Wipro'
> the popular brand dosen't last for more than 6 - 7 months.

Invest in lamps from better brands. Here in Chile I can buy Philips CFLs
at roughly 5 dollars each. They are pretty good. Westinghouse and
General Electric ones are cheaper, cause more radio interference, but
also work. Among the ones I can get here, Philips and Westinghouse are
both highly efficient, while General Electric are slightly less so.

Anyway, 6-7 months is a ridiculous lifespan! Don't buy any more of those
crap lamps. 6-7 YEARS, not months, would be the minimum acceptable
lifespan for a CFL used in typical home applications. Typically you can
expect more than that lifespan.

> Also about the light spectrum
> emitted from CFL's is some what different as the colors look
> different in the light of many CFL's.  Experts , please comment on
> this !

It's true, the spectrum from CFLs is totally different from that of glow
bulbs or sunlight.

There are two basic types of light sources: Blackbody radiators, and
spectral radiators. Blackbody radiators emit a continuous spectrum, that
has a smooth distribution peaking on a specific wavelength, that depends
on the temperature of the hot body. This body is assumed to be black,
therefore the name. Bodies that are not black can produce a slightly
different spectrum, but not by very much.

Glow bulb filaments operate at temperatures between about 2200 and 2700
Kelvin, so that's their "color temperature", as it is called. This is an
orange to yellow light. The sun has a surface temperature like 6000
Kelvin, so that is its color temperature. But sunlight arriving on earth
is filtered by the atmosphere. Shorter wavelengths are scattered
sidewards, longer ones pass more straight. That's why the sky looks
blue, and the sun looks light yellow. Pure sunlight arriving on earth
ranges from about 4000 Kelvin at noon, to less than 2000 Kelvin during
a bloody red sunset. The blue sky instead is like 14,000 Kelvin. If you
are in the shadow, lit by blue sky, you get this very bluish light. But
if you get a natural mix of direct sunlight and blue sky, you get about
6000 Kelvin at noon, less as the sun goes lower. On an overcast day, the
clouds mix the blue skylight with the yellow sunlight, and the mix is
again close to 6000 Kelvin at noon.

Spectral radiators instead can work cold. They work by exciting atoms,
and releasing energy quants (photons) as the atoms de-excite. The
wavelength of the light emitted depends on the exact substance that is
being excited. Several phosphor-based compounds are used in fluorescent
lights, and these several phosphors are mixed to give some radiation in
each of the ranges of the three basic colors, red, green and blue, to
which the human eye reacts. By altering the mix of phosphors, a
fluorescent lamp can be made to emit more or less light of each specific
color, and that affects its color balance. Normally fluorescent lamps
are also specified in color temperature, which is in this case the
temperature of a blackbody that would radiate the closest possible mix
of wavelengths. But this does not erase the fact that fluorescent lamps
emit only specific wavelengths, and not a continuous spectrum.

For this reason, the colors of an object can look different, or simply
plain wrong, under fluorescent light, as compared to daylight or even
glow light. If an object contains a dye that reflects a very only a very
specific wavelength of green, and your fluorescent lamp emits three
spectral lines in the green range, but none of those falling just on the
dye's resonance, then you will see the object being green in daylight
and in glow light, but black in fluorescent light! Likewise, a violet
object (blue plus red) that reflects a a range of red wavelengths that
is present in your fluorescent mix, but a range of blue wavelengths in
which the lamp does not radiate, will look red instead of violet in the
light of that fluorescent lamp. This can be a serious problem, fro
example for electronicians like myself, when trying to read the
color-coded values of resistors! Red and orange can often look exactly
the same in fluorescent light, and some other light source is needed to
read the value.

Fluorescent lamps have two important specifications for their color. One
is the already mentioned color temperature. The most typical ones are
2700 to 3300 Kelvin, usually called "warm white", intended to look
almost as orange/yellow as a glow lamp; then we have "daylight" or "cold
white", which is typically around 6500 Kelvin, and in between is the
color temperature that I personally like best, called "neutral white",
which is 4000 to 4500 Kelvin. Other color temperatures are also
manufactured, but are used in more specialized applications.

The other specification, often neglected, is the Color Rendering Index
(CRI). This is a percentual value, telling how well the spectrum from a
lamp matches the equivalent blackbody spectrum. Very poor fluorescent
lamps could be as bad as 60%, while most are better than 80%, with the
really good ones being above 90%. None of them can make 100%.

Some manufacturers use a three figure code, where the first figure is
the tens of the CRI, and the other two are the thousands and hundreds of
the color temperature. For example, a high quality fluorescent lamp that
has a CRI of 95% and a color temperature of 4000 Kelvin, would be coded
"940".

By the way, almost all of the above applies to white LEDs too. They use
phosphors, much the same as fluorescent lamps. Only that they are
excited by an ultraviolet or blue LED, instead of the ultraviolet
radiation from a low pressure mercury arc.

I wish I could find 940 type CFLs locally. The ones I have at present
are 840 and 865. Long straight fluorescent tubes are more easily found
in 940 color.

Manfred

========================
Visit my hobby homepage!
http://ludens.cl
========================

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

#15923

From: "Tony Goffe" <tony@...>
Date: Wed Jun 13, 2012 10:00 am
Subject: fw: Suitable generator for small overshot waterwheel?

tony.goffe

Nando..this is an old post ..I was clearing out the Inbox.. This lady speaks of
the cogging torque caused in a type of PM Gen. is there any (theoretically) 
means to widen the gap between the PM's and the coils and thus cut down on the
START "cogging" ..ie, have a low-speed start-up... AND, when the RPM is
suitable, ..re-close the gap... Tell me if I am chatting impracticability here
(theoretically) ....Thanks, tony

----------------------------------------
  From: "Wendy Howard" <wendy_howard@...>
Sent: Friday, February 04, 2011 2:48 PM
To: microhydro@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [microhydro] Suitable generator for small overshot waterwheel?



I've been lurking on the site for a bit and am encouraged and excited
by the quality and calibre of input here! I tried a search of the
archives, but the search terms I used were either too general or too
specific to find anything useful so I hope I'm not asking anything
that's been asked a million times before.

I'm in the process of working with a local engineer to install an
overshot waterwheel in our stream for winter power generation. My
neighbour has an almost identical installation further down the
stream. The wheels works brilliantly, but we're having problems
finding good generators for them. So much so that the engineer's
wondering about branching out and making his own. The 1.1kW PMG on the
engineer's prototype (which produces plenty of power at his site) is
no longer manufactured. We tried the 2.2kW PMG made by the same
company but it proved to have too much cogging torque for our water
volumes, so we looked around on the internet and found some light wind
alternators made by a company in the 'States that seemed - from their
videos and power curves at least - to be what was required for our
situation. These alternators have no problems with cogging, and had
they produced the power that was advertised for them, we would have
been happy. But they are not even producing 30% of their advertised
output under identical conditions of measurement - ie. open circuit,
no load, from a known rpm - and the company concerned seem incapable
of even entertaining the suggestion that it could be anything to do
with their units, despite us proving to them fairly comprehensively
that it is.

Since we've no desire to carry on with this frustrating,
disappointing, not to mention expensive, trial-and-error search for a
decent generator, I'd be really grateful for some recommendations. Our
flow is not massive - winter averages 3-5 litres per second (my
neighbour gets an additional litre per second from another stream
joining upstream of his wheel) and it goes down to around a 1lps in
summer. The head is substantial, though somewhat incalculable since
the wheels are installed in the stream with chutes simply serving to
direct the entire flow of water over the top of the wheels, but the
stream descends from 200m above my property over the space of about
half a kilometre with no major breaks in flow en route. We both have
24V off-grid systems with solar integrated and are just looking for
something that's going to feed our batteries with a steady amperage
24/7 through winter. We'd be happy with anything over 4-5A!

Anyone wanting more details can get them from our website -
http://www.permaculturinginportugal.net/content/energy.htm
and the blog - http://permaculturinginportugal.net/blog/tag/water-wheel/

Thanks in anticipation.
Wendy



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Reply | Messages in this Topic (1)

#15924

From: "Nando" <nando37@...>
Date: Wed Jun 13, 2012 2:07 pm
Subject: Re: Re: energy saver compaign

nando37@...

Manfred:

As information of late and commenting the use of the Phillips spiral fluorescent
lamps with electronic ballasts.

As I have communicated with you in one of the messages that you may have not yet
read due to the Internet isolation you were having for several days, the storms
in the Dallas area that caused a power failure for more than two hours and the
next day to see a large truck carrying a large power transformers cause as well
damage to two fluorescent lamps in my apartment I had lighted at that moment .

These two lamps were Phillips 60 watts equivalent to resistive that were "blown"
by the lighting "traveling" on the power leads that seems that as well blew the
large power  transformer.

I opened one of the lamps with careful surgery using small rotating blades to
cut the plastic housing to see where the damage was and found the very common
Phillips design of about 30 years ago , still used today, a small circular board
two  high voltage transistors in half bridge configuration with a small toroid
transformers as the transistors Gate pulses synchronized with the Inductor and
capacitor in series with the lamp to produce around 30 KHZ oscillating frequency
and of course with a starting pulsing circuit with an input Grid AC voltage with
a full bridge rectifier charging a 22 microfarad 220 Volts electrolytic
capacitor.

The circuit as it is can be used with DC voltages in the range of about 120 to
180 Volts DC .

The internal circuitry shows the board that is being over heated long term, this
indicate that the power transistors that do not have thermal dissipators are two
critical points of the design that with small 1/2 watts dissipators the circuit
could last 5 fold and just life designed by the phosphor of the lamps and the
lamps dual filaments ( one at each end of the lamp)

The PF = Power Factor of these lamps is around 0,7 to 0,75 due to the rectified
AC charging a capacitor .

The light temperature of my lamps are in the 4000-4500 Kelvin -- that I am
always searching for to have at hand.

The R.FI. = Radio Frequency Interference of these devices are present and most
of them have air transmission  with limited power leads transmission since the
circuitry is included to reduce the leads transmitted RFI.

Adding additional circuitry, around 15 cents worth ( Chinese labor and Chinese
parts) the design could be improved to have a PFC= Power Factor Correction of at
least 0,95 to 0.98 but that is a lot of additional money to invest in this lamp
( this from the point of view of the manufacturers ) . -- The additional circuit
that can be synchronized with the half bridge oscillator requires an inductor
and a power transistor with a diode and an additional electrolytic capacitor
plus a simple circuit to define the variable charging current to keep the
PFC=0,95+.

With  this circuit added the lamps would be usable from 85 to 240 Volts AC or
from 120  to 400 Volts DC -- therefore an Universal lamp good for most all Grid
voltages and frequencies world wide available plus the addition of the DC volts
as well.

One single model available world wide .

I do not add anything to the CTI you did a clear description of a complicated
light Kelvin temperatures.

Nando


Nando

----- Original Message -----
   From: Manfred Mornhinweg
   To: microhydro@yahoogroups.com
   Sent: Tuesday, June 12, 2012 14:21
   Subject: [microhydro] Re: energy saver compaign



   Dear Deepak,

   my reply comes a bit late because I was away from home and internet for
   a week.

   > My experience is some what bad
   > in this subject. i.e. CFL's of more than 98% brands including 'Wipro'
   > the popular brand dosen't last for more than 6 - 7 months.

   Invest in lamps from better brands. Here in Chile I can buy Philips CFLs
   at roughly 5 dollars each. They are pretty good. Westinghouse and
   General Electric ones are cheaper, cause more radio interference, but
   also work. Among the ones I can get here, Philips and Westinghouse are
   both highly efficient, while General Electric are slightly less so.

   Anyway, 6-7 months is a ridiculous lifespan! Don't buy any more of those
   crap lamps. 6-7 YEARS, not months, would be the minimum acceptable
   lifespan for a CFL used in typical home applications. Typically you can
   expect more than that lifespan.

   > Also about the light spectrum
   > emitted from CFL's is some what different as the colors look
   > different in the light of many CFL's. Experts , please comment on
   > this !

   It's true, the spectrum from CFLs is totally different from that of glow
   bulbs or sunlight.

   There are two basic types of light sources: Blackbody radiators, and
   spectral radiators. Blackbody radiators emit a continuous spectrum, that
   has a smooth distribution peaking on a specific wavelength, that depends
   on the temperature of the hot body. This body is assumed to be black,
   therefore the name. Bodies that are not black can produce a slightly
   different spectrum, but not by very much.

   Glow bulb filaments operate at temperatures between about 2200 and 2700
   Kelvin, so that's their "color temperature", as it is called. This is an
   orange to yellow light. The sun has a surface temperature like 6000
   Kelvin, so that is its color temperature. But sunlight arriving on earth
   is filtered by the atmosphere. Shorter wavelengths are scattered
   sidewards, longer ones pass more straight. That's why the sky looks
   blue, and the sun looks light yellow. Pure sunlight arriving on earth
   ranges from about 4000 Kelvin at noon, to less than 2000 Kelvin during
   a bloody red sunset. The blue sky instead is like 14,000 Kelvin. If you
   are in the shadow, lit by blue sky, you get this very bluish light. But
   if you get a natural mix of direct sunlight and blue sky, you get about
   6000 Kelvin at noon, less as the sun goes lower. On an overcast day, the
   clouds mix the blue skylight with the yellow sunlight, and the mix is
   again close to 6000 Kelvin at noon.

   Spectral radiators instead can work cold. They work by exciting atoms,
   and releasing energy quants (photons) as the atoms de-excite. The
   wavelength of the light emitted depends on the exact substance that is
   being excited. Several phosphor-based compounds are used in fluorescent
   lights, and these several phosphors are mixed to give some radiation in
   each of the ranges of the three basic colors, red, green and blue, to
   which the human eye reacts. By altering the mix of phosphors, a
   fluorescent lamp can be made to emit more or less light of each specific
   color, and that affects its color balance. Normally fluorescent lamps
   are also specified in color temperature, which is in this case the
   temperature of a blackbody that would radiate the closest possible mix
   of wavelengths. But this does not erase the fact that fluorescent lamps
   emit only specific wavelengths, and not a continuous spectrum.

   For this reason, the colors of an object can look different, or simply
   plain wrong, under fluorescent light, as compared to daylight or even
   glow light. If an object contains a dye that reflects a very only a very
   specific wavelength of green, and your fluorescent lamp emits three
   spectral lines in the green range, but none of those falling just on the
   dye's resonance, then you will see the object being green in daylight
   and in glow light, but black in fluorescent light! Likewise, a violet
   object (blue plus red) that reflects a a range of red wavelengths that
   is present in your fluorescent mix, but a range of blue wavelengths in
   which the lamp does not radiate, will look red instead of violet in the
   light of that fluorescent lamp. This can be a serious problem, fro
   example for electronicians like myself, when trying to read the
   color-coded values of resistors! Red and orange can often look exactly
   the same in fluorescent light, and some other light source is needed to
   read the value.

   Fluorescent lamps have two important specifications for their color. One
   is the already mentioned color temperature. The most typical ones are
   2700 to 3300 Kelvin, usually called "warm white", intended to look
   almost as orange/yellow as a glow lamp; then we have "daylight" or "cold
   white", which is typically around 6500 Kelvin, and in between is the
   color temperature that I personally like best, called "neutral white",
   which is 4000 to 4500 Kelvin. Other color temperatures are also
   manufactured, but are used in more specialized applications.

   The other specification, often neglected, is the Color Rendering Index
   (CRI). This is a percentual value, telling how well the spectrum from a
   lamp matches the equivalent blackbody spectrum. Very poor fluorescent
   lamps could be as bad as 60%, while most are better than 80%, with the
   really good ones being above 90%. None of them can make 100%.

   Some manufacturers use a three figure code, where the first figure is
   the tens of the CRI, and the other two are the thousands and hundreds of
   the color temperature. For example, a high quality fluorescent lamp that
   has a CRI of 95% and a color temperature of 4000 Kelvin, would be coded
   "940".

   By the way, almost all of the above applies to white LEDs too. They use
   phosphors, much the same as fluorescent lamps. Only that they are
   excited by an ultraviolet or blue LED, instead of the ultraviolet
   radiation from a low pressure mercury arc.

   I wish I could find 940 type CFLs locally. The ones I have at present
   are 840 and 865. Long straight fluorescent tubes are more easily found
   in 940 color.

   Manfred

   ========================
   Visit my hobby homepage!
   http://ludens.cl
   ========================




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

#15925

From: Michel Maupoux <michelm@...>
Date: Wed Jun 13, 2012 8:41 pm
Subject: Re: Re: energy saver compaign

michelmge

Bill,
I bought my CFL's at Home Depot too, but the last ones I bought were 3
years ago.  Almost 100% of light bulbs my house in Washington state are now
CFL and the oldest ones were the earliest models on sale, 7? 10? years ago.
  I've only had to change 3 in all that time.
Do you have a kid who likes to flip your switches on and off all the time?
  or a very unstable voltage from your utility?  Both would have a bad
effect on CFL's life expectancy.  Also dimmers if they are not dimmable
models.  Also if installed on ceiling fans, the vibrations will kill them.

By the way, Home Depot sells several brands, I don't remember which one I
purchased. Probably an assortment.  What I have is usually 10-15W, sold as
"40 - 60W (incandescent) replacements"

On Tue, Jun 12, 2012 at 3:52 PM, <bill.allen@...> wrote:

> **
>
>
> I would 6-7 months is the life span I have been getting from what ever
> brand CFL they sell at Home Depot.
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Manfred Mornhinweg <manfred@...>
> Sender: microhydro@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2012 19:21:51
> To: <microhydro@yahoogroups.com>
> Reply-to: microhydro@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [microhydro] Re: energy saver compaign
>
> Dear Deepak,
>
> my reply comes a bit late because I was away from home and internet for
> a week.
>
> > My experience is some what bad
> > in this subject. i.e. CFL's of more than 98% brands including 'Wipro'
> > the popular brand dosen't last for more than 6 - 7 months.
>
> Invest in lamps from better brands. Here in Chile I can buy Philips CFLs
> at roughly 5 dollars each. They are pretty good. Westinghouse and
> General Electric ones are cheaper, cause more radio interference, but
> also work. Among the ones I can get here, Philips and Westinghouse are
> both highly efficient, while General Electric are slightly less so.
>
> Anyway, 6-7 months is a ridiculous lifespan! Don't buy any more of those
> crap lamps. 6-7 YEARS, not months, would be the minimum acceptable
> lifespan for a CFL used in typical home applications. Typically you can
> expect more than that lifespan.
>
> > Also about the light spectrum
> > emitted from CFL's is some what different as the colors look
> > different in the light of many CFL's. Experts , please comment on
> > this !
>
> It's true, the spectrum from CFLs is totally different from that of glow
> bulbs or sunlight.
>
> There are two basic types of light sources: Blackbody radiators, and
> spectral radiators. Blackbody radiators emit a continuous spectrum, that
> has a smooth distribution peaking on a specific wavelength, that depends
> on the temperature of the hot body. This body is assumed to be black,
> therefore the name. Bodies that are not black can produce a slightly
> different spectrum, but not by very much.
>
> Glow bulb filaments operate at temperatures between about 2200 and 2700
> Kelvin, so that's their "color temperature", as it is called. This is an
> orange to yellow light. The sun has a surface temperature like 6000
> Kelvin, so that is its color temperature. But sunlight arriving on earth
> is filtered by the atmosphere. Shorter wavelengths are scattered
> sidewards, longer ones pass more straight. That's why the sky looks
> blue, and the sun looks light yellow. Pure sunlight arriving on earth
> ranges from about 4000 Kelvin at noon, to less than 2000 Kelvin during
> a bloody red sunset. The blue sky instead is like 14,000 Kelvin. If you
> are in the shadow, lit by blue sky, you get this very bluish light. But
> if you get a natural mix of direct sunlight and blue sky, you get about
> 6000 Kelvin at noon, less as the sun goes lower. On an overcast day, the
> clouds mix the blue skylight with the yellow sunlight, and the mix is
> again close to 6000 Kelvin at noon.
>
> Spectral radiators instead can work cold. They work by exciting atoms,
> and releasing energy quants (photons) as the atoms de-excite. The
> wavelength of the light emitted depends on the exact substance that is
> being excited. Several phosphor-based compounds are used in fluorescent
> lights, and these several phosphors are mixed to give some radiation in
> each of the ranges of the three basic colors, red, green and blue, to
> which the human eye reacts. By altering the mix of phosphors, a
> fluorescent lamp can be made to emit more or less light of each specific
> color, and that affects its color balance. Normally fluorescent lamps
> are also specified in color temperature, which is in this case the
> temperature of a blackbody that would radiate the closest possible mix
> of wavelengths. But this does not erase the fact that fluorescent lamps
> emit only specific wavelengths, and not a continuous spectrum.
>
> For this reason, the colors of an object can look different, or simply
> plain wrong, under fluorescent light, as compared to daylight or even
> glow light. If an object contains a dye that reflects a very only a very
> specific wavelength of green, and your fluorescent lamp emits three
> spectral lines in the green range, but none of those falling just on the
> dye's resonance, then you will see the object being green in daylight
> and in glow light, but black in fluorescent light! Likewise, a violet
> object (blue plus red) that reflects a a range of red wavelengths that
> is present in your fluorescent mix, but a range of blue wavelengths in
> which the lamp does not radiate, will look red instead of violet in the
> light of that fluorescent lamp. This can be a serious problem, fro
> example for electronicians like myself, when trying to read the
> color-coded values of resistors! Red and orange can often look exactly
> the same in fluorescent light, and some other light source is needed to
> read the value.
>
> Fluorescent lamps have two important specifications for their color. One
> is the already mentioned color temperature. The most typical ones are
> 2700 to 3300 Kelvin, usually called "warm white", intended to look
> almost as orange/yellow as a glow lamp; then we have "daylight" or "cold
> white", which is typically around 6500 Kelvin, and in between is the
> color temperature that I personally like best, called "neutral white",
> which is 4000 to 4500 Kelvin. Other color temperatures are also
> manufactured, but are used in more specialized applications.
>
> The other specification, often neglected, is the Color Rendering Index
> (CRI). This is a percentual value, telling how well the spectrum from a
> lamp matches the equivalent blackbody spectrum. Very poor fluorescent
> lamps could be as bad as 60%, while most are better than 80%, with the
> really good ones being above 90%. None of them can make 100%.
>
> Some manufacturers use a three figure code, where the first figure is
> the tens of the CRI, and the other two are the thousands and hundreds of
> the color temperature. For example, a high quality fluorescent lamp that
> has a CRI of 95% and a color temperature of 4000 Kelvin, would be coded
> "940".
>
> By the way, almost all of the above applies to white LEDs too. They use
> phosphors, much the same as fluorescent lamps. Only that they are
> excited by an ultraviolet or blue LED, instead of the ultraviolet
> radiation from a low pressure mercury arc.
>
> I wish I could find 940 type CFLs locally. The ones I have at present
> are 840 and 865. Long straight fluorescent tubes are more easily found
> in 940 color.
>
> Manfred
>
> ========================
> Visit my hobby homepage!
> http://ludens.cl
> ========================
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>



--
Michel Maupoux
Technical Director
Green Empowerment
www.greenempowerment.org


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

#15926

From: CRAIG SHAFER <craigeshafer@...>
Date: Wed Jun 13, 2012 10:20 pm
Subject: Re: Re: energy saver compaign

craigeshafer

These bulbs are mercery filled. I use the LED lights much better and safer ,last
longer and dont put off the frequencies of your brain like the others.����
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HMvjA8Db5ZY

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

#15927

From: bill.allen@...
Date: Thu Jun 14, 2012 12:24 pm
Subject: Re: Re: energy saver compaign

ba5_1

No dimmers or ceiling fans...but lots of activity (family of 5).  Will check
house power but I'm pretty sure it's ok. Most are 23 watts for 100w equivalent.
I may be exaggerating a little on the short life span but I recently took a bag
of about 15 in for recycling.  I have started writing the date on each base when
I put in service.  Will see....

-----Original Message-----
From: Michel Maupoux <michelm@...>
Sender: microhydro@yahoogroups.com
Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2012 13:41:44
To: <microhydro@yahoogroups.com>
Reply-to: microhydro@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [microhydro] Re: energy saver compaign

Bill,
I bought my CFL's at Home Depot too, but the last ones I bought were 3
years ago.  Almost 100% of light bulbs my house in Washington state are now
CFL and the oldest ones were the earliest models on sale, 7? 10? years ago.
  I've only had to change 3 in all that time.
Do you have a kid who likes to flip your switches on and off all the time?
  or a very unstable voltage from your utility?  Both would have a bad
effect on CFL's life expectancy.  Also dimmers if they are not dimmable
models.  Also if installed on ceiling fans, the vibrations will kill them.

By the way, Home Depot sells several brands, I don't remember which one I
purchased. Probably an assortment.  What I have is usually 10-15W, sold as
"40 - 60W (incandescent) replacements"

On Tue, Jun 12, 2012 at 3:52 PM, <bill.allen@...> wrote:

> **
>
>
> I would 6-7 months is the life span I have been getting from what ever
> brand CFL they sell at Home Depot.
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Manfred Mornhinweg <manfred@...>
> Sender: microhydro@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2012 19:21:51
> To: <microhydro@yahoogroups.com>
> Reply-to: microhydro@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [microhydro] Re: energy saver compaign
>
> Dear Deepak,
>
> my reply comes a bit late because I was away from home and internet for
> a week.
>
> > My experience is some what bad
> > in this subject. i.e. CFL's of more than 98% brands including 'Wipro'
> > the popular brand dosen't last for more than 6 - 7 months.
>
> Invest in lamps from better brands. Here in Chile I can buy Philips CFLs
> at roughly 5 dollars each. They are pretty good. Westinghouse and
> General Electric ones are cheaper, cause more radio interference, but
> also work. Among the ones I can get here, Philips and Westinghouse are
> both highly efficient, while General Electric are slightly less so.
>
> Anyway, 6-7 months is a ridiculous lifespan! Don't buy any more of those
> crap lamps. 6-7 YEARS, not months, would be the minimum acceptable
> lifespan for a CFL used in typical home applications. Typically you can
> expect more than that lifespan.
>
> > Also about the light spectrum
> > emitted from CFL's is some what different as the colors look
> > different in the light of many CFL's. Experts , please comment on
> > this !
>
> It's true, the spectrum from CFLs is totally different from that of glow
> bulbs or sunlight.
>
> There are two basic types of light sources: Blackbody radiators, and
> spectral radiators. Blackbody radiators emit a continuous spectrum, that
> has a smooth distribution peaking on a specific wavelength, that depends
> on the temperature of the hot body. This body is assumed to be black,
> therefore the name. Bodies that are not black can produce a slightly
> different spectrum, but not by very much.
>
> Glow bulb filaments operate at temperatures between about 2200 and 2700
> Kelvin, so that's their "color temperature", as it is called. This is an
> orange to yellow light. The sun has a surface temperature like 6000
> Kelvin, so that is its color temperature. But sunlight arriving on earth
> is filtered by the atmosphere. Shorter wavelengths are scattered
> sidewards, longer ones pass more straight. That's why the sky looks
> blue, and the sun looks light yellow. Pure sunlight arriving on earth
> ranges from about 4000 Kelvin at noon, to less than 2000 Kelvin during
> a bloody red sunset. The blue sky instead is like 14,000 Kelvin. If you
> are in the shadow, lit by blue sky, you get this very bluish light. But
> if you get a natural mix of direct sunlight and blue sky, you get about
> 6000 Kelvin at noon, less as the sun goes lower. On an overcast day, the
> clouds mix the blue skylight with the yellow sunlight, and the mix is
> again close to 6000 Kelvin at noon.
>
> Spectral radiators instead can work cold. They work by exciting atoms,
> and releasing energy quants (photons) as the atoms de-excite. The
> wavelength of the light emitted depends on the exact substance that is
> being excited. Several phosphor-based compounds are used in fluorescent
> lights, and these several phosphors are mixed to give some radiation in
> each of the ranges of the three basic colors, red, green and blue, to
> which the human eye reacts. By altering the mix of phosphors, a
> fluorescent lamp can be made to emit more or less light of each specific
> color, and that affects its color balance. Normally fluorescent lamps
> are also specified in color temperature, which is in this case the
> temperature of a blackbody that would radiate the closest possible mix
> of wavelengths. But this does not erase the fact that fluorescent lamps
> emit only specific wavelengths, and not a continuous spectrum.
>
> For this reason, the colors of an object can look different, or simply
> plain wrong, under fluorescent light, as compared to daylight or even
> glow light. If an object contains a dye that reflects a very only a very
> specific wavelength of green, and your fluorescent lamp emits three
> spectral lines in the green range, but none of those falling just on the
> dye's resonance, then you will see the object being green in daylight
> and in glow light, but black in fluorescent light! Likewise, a violet
> object (blue plus red) that reflects a a range of red wavelengths that
> is present in your fluorescent mix, but a range of blue wavelengths in
> which the lamp does not radiate, will look red instead of violet in the
> light of that fluorescent lamp. This can be a serious problem, fro
> example for electronicians like myself, when trying to read the
> color-coded values of resistors! Red and orange can often look exactly
> the same in fluorescent light, and some other light source is needed to
> read the value.
>
> Fluorescent lamps have two important specifications for their color. One
> is the already mentioned color temperature. The most typical ones are
> 2700 to 3300 Kelvin, usually called "warm white", intended to look
> almost as orange/yellow as a glow lamp; then we have "daylight" or "cold
> white", which is typically around 6500 Kelvin, and in between is the
> color temperature that I personally like best, called "neutral white",
> which is 4000 to 4500 Kelvin. Other color temperatures are also
> manufactured, but are used in more specialized applications.
>
> The other specification, often neglected, is the Color Rendering Index
> (CRI). This is a percentual value, telling how well the spectrum from a
> lamp matches the equivalent blackbody spectrum. Very poor fluorescent
> lamps could be as bad as 60%, while most are better than 80%, with the
> really good ones being above 90%. None of them can make 100%.
>
> Some manufacturers use a three figure code, where the first figure is
> the tens of the CRI, and the other two are the thousands and hundreds of
> the color temperature. For example, a high quality fluorescent lamp that
> has a CRI of 95% and a color temperature of 4000 Kelvin, would be coded
> "940".
>
> By the way, almost all of the above applies to white LEDs too. They use
> phosphors, much the same as fluorescent lamps. Only that they are
> excited by an ultraviolet or blue LED, instead of the ultraviolet
> radiation from a low pressure mercury arc.
>
> I wish I could find 940 type CFLs locally. The ones I have at present
> are 840 and 865. Long straight fluorescent tubes are more easily found
> in 940 color.
>
> Manfred
>
> ========================
> Visit my hobby homepage!
> http://ludens.cl
> ========================
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>



--
Michel Maupoux
Technical Director
Green Empowerment
www.greenempowerment.org


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

#15928

From: "Nando" <nando37@...>
Date: Thu Jun 14, 2012 12:37 pm
Subject: Re: Re: energy saver compaign

nando37@...

What is mercery ?   I am familiar with Mercury !!!

CFLs are NOT Filled with Mercury, the bulbs have a very small drop size of
Mercury  that with the plasma generated by the electricity do "vaporize" to
produce ultraviolet light that excites the different phosphors utilized to get
the light temperature desired 4000 to 4500 Kelvin is a white color that gives
natural color to most colors .

The LEDs use the same phosphors and most of them also produce the basic
ultraviolet color to excite the phosphors, therefore the frequencies emitted are
the same for both cases, the CFLs  & the LEDs.

Coal burning which is extensively done in most countries will put out more
Mercury than what all the CFLs lamps will produce if broken at the same time.

Do not let the nay sayers control your life learn and learn wisely then comment
if you have a good information background not fed by the "nay sayers ".

Nando





   ----- Original Message -----
   From: CRAIG SHAFER
   To: microhydro@yahoogroups.com
   Sent: Wednesday, June 13, 2012 17:20
   Subject: Re: [microhydro] Re: energy saver compaign



   These bulbs are mercery filled. I use the LED lights much better and safer
,last longer and dont put off the frequencies of your brain like the others.    
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HMvjA8Db5ZY

   [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

#15929

From: "Nando" <nando37@...>
Date: Thu Jun 14, 2012 2:59 pm
Subject: Re: Re: energy saver compaign

nando37@...

To All:

One problem that is now  appearing with the CFLs is that the semiconductors
being used are voltage breakdown limited too close to the peak voltage of the AC
voltage, therefore with great chances of the semiconductors to fail in a mode
that may look like a burnout lamp.

The GRID electrical system in a nation varies dramatically from city to city ,
county to county state to state and country to country.

The GRID system is supposed to have equipment to keep the AC Voltage close to
the design limits, like for the 230 Volts the maximum voltage that should
"ARRIVE" to a home should not be more than about 1.07  % of the nominal voltage
, in this case 230 * 1.07 = 246 Volts  (now the 7% variation may be different in
different places ) .

Like in Nepal it is a 230 Volts and you can read often  260 Volts therefore in
some of those places have autovariable transformers to keep the incoming voltage
stable --- In years past I designed several transformers and I remember
designing one of I believe 10 KW capable of regulating from 190 to 280 Volts to
put out 230 volts fixed that was varied every one hertz at the ZERO crossing of
the sine wave plus the addition of spike suppressor ( like secondary lightning
effects on the power Grid voltages ).

So a great deal of the CFLs end of life are suicide effects due to the power
Grid spikes.

The CFLs electronic ballasts I have designed 1) all of them are PFC= Power 
Factor Corrected  2 ) Spike protected with high power capabilities and not with
the miniscule protectors Varistors that most CFLs ballasts may have.

If the CFL has PFC then it is simple to protect the CFL against those power
Spikes that may blow the CFL ballast because the input inductor plus the
protecting circuit limit the voltage to a safe value toward the ballast
oscillator circuits.

The SPIRAL lamps , the great majority of them, do not have PFC and if you find
CFLs that indicate that they are PFC that lamp  should be the preferable one to
buy even if the price is much higher .

The CFL with PFC has the highest  voltage breakdown semiconductors therefore the
one with the best chances to survive long term.

The Electronic ballasts for the long tubes are the one that most of the time
have PFC and in this case I would buy a ballast with PFC even though more
expensive with a lamp that may live 15 to 20,000 hours .

I build ballasts using SCRs and made 8 feet long lamps that were placed
vertically in a room corner for my parents house that when the sold what they
had to move to a small apartment these lamps were the first that were sold --
Right now  one can make one of those buying a 15 to 20 dollars electronic
ballast with PFC and an 8 feet lamp or two ( one on each corner  or even on the
ceiling properly mounted).

Nando

   ----- Original Message -----
   From: bill.allen@...
   To: microhydro@yahoogroups.com
   Sent: Thursday, June 14, 2012 07:24
   Subject: Re: [microhydro] Re: energy saver compaign

   No dimmers or ceiling fans...but lots of activity (family of 5). Will check
house power but I'm pretty sure it's ok. Most are 23 watts for 100w equivalent.
   I may be exaggerating a little on the short life span but I recently took a
bag of about 15 in for recycling. I have started writing the date on each base
when I put in service. Will see....

   -----Original Message-----
   From: Michel Maupoux <michelm@...>
   Sender: microhydro@yahoogroups.com
   Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2012 13:41:44
   To: <microhydro@yahoogroups.com>
   Reply-to: microhydro@yahoogroups.com
   Subject: Re: [microhydro] Re: energy saver compaign

   Bill,
   I bought my CFL's at Home Depot too, but the last ones I bought were 3
   years ago. Almost 100% of light bulbs my house in Washington state are now
   CFL and the oldest ones were the earliest models on sale, 7? 10? years ago.
   I've only had to change 3 in all that time.
   Do you have a kid who likes to flip your switches on and off all the time?
   or a very unstable voltage from your utility? Both would have a bad
   effect on CFL's life expectancy. Also dimmers if they are not dimmable
   models. Also if installed on ceiling fans, the vibrations will kill them.

   By the way, Home Depot sells several brands, I don't remember which one I
   purchased. Probably an assortment. What I have is usually 10-15W, sold as
   "40 - 60W (incandescent) replacements"

   On Tue, Jun 12, 2012 at 3:52 PM, <bill.allen@...> wrote:

   > **
   >
   >
   > I would 6-7 months is the life span I have been getting from what ever
   > brand CFL they sell at Home Depot.
   >
   >
   > -----Original Message-----
   > From: Manfred Mornhinweg <manfred@...>
   > Sender: microhydro@yahoogroups.com
   > Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2012 19:21:51
   > To: <microhydro@yahoogroups.com>
   > Reply-to: microhydro@yahoogroups.com
   > Subject: [microhydro] Re: energy saver compaign
   >
   > Dear Deepak,
   >
   > my reply comes a bit late because I was away from home and internet for
   > a week.
   >
   > > My experience is some what bad
   > > in this subject. i.e. CFL's of more than 98% brands including 'Wipro'
   > > the popular brand dosen't last for more than 6 - 7 months.
   >
   > Invest in lamps from better brands. Here in Chile I can buy Philips CFLs
   > at roughly 5 dollars each. They are pretty good. Westinghouse and
   > General Electric ones are cheaper, cause more radio interference, but
   > also work. Among the ones I can get here, Philips and Westinghouse are
   > both highly efficient, while General Electric are slightly less so.
   >
   > Anyway, 6-7 months is a ridiculous lifespan! Don't buy any more of those
   > crap lamps. 6-7 YEARS, not months, would be the minimum acceptable
   > lifespan for a CFL used in typical home applications. Typically you can
   > expect more than that lifespan.
   >
   > > Also about the light spectrum
   > > emitted from CFL's is some what different as the colors look
   > > different in the light of many CFL's. Experts , please comment on
   > > this !
   >
   > It's true, the spectrum from CFLs is totally different from that of glow
   > bulbs or sunlight.
   >
   > There are two basic types of light sources: Blackbody radiators, and
   > spectral radiators. Blackbody radiators emit a continuous spectrum, that
   > has a smooth distribution peaking on a specific wavelength, that depends
   > on the temperature of the hot body. This body is assumed to be black,
   > therefore the name. Bodies that are not black can produce a slightly
   > different spectrum, but not by very much.
   >
   > Glow bulb filaments operate at temperatures between about 2200 and 2700
   > Kelvin, so that's their "color temperature", as it is called. This is an
   > orange to yellow light. The sun has a surface temperature like 6000
   > Kelvin, so that is its color temperature. But sunlight arriving on earth
   > is filtered by the atmosphere. Shorter wavelengths are scattered
   > sidewards, longer ones pass more straight. That's why the sky looks
   > blue, and the sun looks light yellow. Pure sunlight arriving on earth
   > ranges from about 4000 Kelvin at noon, to less than 2000 Kelvin during
   > a bloody red sunset. The blue sky instead is like 14,000 Kelvin. If you
   > are in the shadow, lit by blue sky, you get this very bluish light. But
   > if you get a natural mix of direct sunlight and blue sky, you get about
   > 6000 Kelvin at noon, less as the sun goes lower. On an overcast day, the
   > clouds mix the blue skylight with the yellow sunlight, and the mix is
   > again close to 6000 Kelvin at noon.
   >
   > Spectral radiators instead can work cold. They work by exciting atoms,
   > and releasing energy quants (photons) as the atoms de-excite. The
   > wavelength of the light emitted depends on the exact substance that is
   > being excited. Several phosphor-based compounds are used in fluorescent
   > lights, and these several phosphors are mixed to give some radiation in
   > each of the ranges of the three basic colors, red, green and blue, to
   > which the human eye reacts. By altering the mix of phosphors, a
   > fluorescent lamp can be made to emit more or less light of each specific
   > color, and that affects its color balance. Normally fluorescent lamps
   > are also specified in color temperature, which is in this case the
   > temperature of a blackbody that would radiate the closest possible mix
   > of wavelengths. But this does not erase the fact that fluorescent lamps
   > emit only specific wavelengths, and not a continuous spectrum.
   >
   > For this reason, the colors of an object can look different, or simply
   > plain wrong, under fluorescent light, as compared to daylight or even
   > glow light. If an object contains a dye that reflects a very only a very
   > specific wavelength of green, and your fluorescent lamp emits three
   > spectral lines in the green range, but none of those falling just on the
   > dye's resonance, then you will see the object being green in daylight
   > and in glow light, but black in fluorescent light! Likewise, a violet
   > object (blue plus red) that reflects a a range of red wavelengths that
   > is present in your fluorescent mix, but a range of blue wavelengths in
   > which the lamp does not radiate, will look red instead of violet in the
   > light of that fluorescent lamp. This can be a serious problem, fro
   > example for electronicians like myself, when trying to read the
   > color-coded values of resistors! Red and orange can often look exactly
   > the same in fluorescent light, and some other light source is needed to
   > read the value.
   >
   > Fluorescent lamps have two important specifications for their color. One
   > is the already mentioned color temperature. The most typical ones are
   > 2700 to 3300 Kelvin, usually called "warm white", intended to look
   > almost as orange/yellow as a glow lamp; then we have "daylight" or "cold
   > white", which is typically around 6500 Kelvin, and in between is the
   > color temperature that I personally like best, called "neutral white",
   > which is 4000 to 4500 Kelvin. Other color temperatures are also
   > manufactured, but are used in more specialized applications.
   >
   > The other specification, often neglected, is the Color Rendering Index
   > (CRI). This is a percentual value, telling how well the spectrum from a
   > lamp matches the equivalent blackbody spectrum. Very poor fluorescent
   > lamps could be as bad as 60%, while most are better than 80%, with the
   > really good ones being above 90%. None of them can make 100%.
   >
   > Some manufacturers use a three figure code, where the first figure is
   > the tens of the CRI, and the other two are the thousands and hundreds of
   > the color temperature. For example, a high quality fluorescent lamp that
   > has a CRI of 95% and a color temperature of 4000 Kelvin, would be coded
   > "940".
   >
   > By the way, almost all of the above applies to white LEDs too. They use
   > phosphors, much the same as fluorescent lamps. Only that they are
   > excited by an ultraviolet or blue LED, instead of the ultraviolet
   > radiation from a low pressure mercury arc.
   >
   > I wish I could find 940 type CFLs locally. The ones I have at present
   > are 840 and 865. Long straight fluorescent tubes are more easily found
   > in 940 color.
   >
   > Manfred
   >
   > ========================
   > Visit my hobby homepage!
   > http://ludens.cl
   > ========================
   >
   > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
   >
   >
   >

   --
   Michel Maupoux
   Technical Director
   Green Empowerment
   www.greenempowerment.org

   [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

   [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

#15930

From: jrkess98@...
Date: Thu Jun 14, 2012 11:24 pm
Subject: Re: Re: energy saver compaign

jkftl

Rant follows:
Just to jump in here...those big, efficient tubes (AND CFLs) are fine in an
  industrial or utility setting, but can they be dimmed?  I work a bit in
the  lighting game and that is the biggest complaint about this forced
wholesale change to arc-lighting. Civilized people have (and  require) dimmable
lighting in their residences.  Do we just buy 50  spare bulbs (and extra
transformers for low-voltage) and let the next  generations fend for themselves?
Many people I know have 'stocked up' on  old E-27 (and B-22) incandescents
as they become more difficult to find, FORCED  by mindless national and
regional legislation.

I THINK I have seen dimmable fluorescents but they are highly complex,
hopelessly expensive, and they flicker.  Borderline useless.

John Kessler
Ft. Lauderdale

In a message dated 6/14/2012 5:12:04 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
nando37@... writes:

To All:

One problem that is now appearing with the CFLs is that the  semiconductors
being used are voltage breakdown limited too close to the peak  voltage of
the AC voltage, therefore with great chances of the semiconductors  to fail
in a mode that may look like a burnout lamp.

The GRID  electrical system in a nation varies dramatically from city to
city , county  to county state to state and country to country.

The GRID system is  supposed to have equipment to keep the AC Voltage close
to the design limits,  like for the 230 Volts the maximum voltage that
should "ARRIVE" to a home  should not be more than about 1.07 % of the nominal
voltage , in this case 230  * 1.07 = 246 Volts (now the 7% variation may be
different in different places  ) .

Like in Nepal it is a 230 Volts and you can read often 260 Volts  therefore
in some of those places have autovariable transformers to keep the
incoming voltage stable --- In years past I designed several transformers and  I
remember designing one of I believe 10 KW capable of regulating from 190 to
280 Volts to put out 230 volts fixed that was varied every one hertz at the
ZERO crossing of the sine wave plus the addition of spike suppressor ( like
secondary lightning effects on the power Grid voltages ).

So a great  deal of the CFLs end of life are suicide effects due to the
power Grid  spikes.

The CFLs electronic ballasts I have designed 1) all of them are  PFC= Power
Factor Corrected 2 ) Spike protected with high power capabilities  and not
with the miniscule protectors Varistors that most CFLs ballasts may  have.

If the CFL has PFC then it is simple to protect the CFL against  those
power Spikes that may blow the CFL ballast because the input inductor  plus the
protecting circuit limit the voltage to a safe value toward the  ballast
oscillator circuits.

The SPIRAL lamps , the great majority of  them, do not have PFC and if you
find CFLs that indicate that they are PFC  that lamp should be the
preferable one to buy even if the price is much higher  .

The CFL with PFC has the highest voltage breakdown semiconductors
therefore the one with the best chances to survive long term.

The  Electronic ballasts for the long tubes are the one that most of the
time have  PFC and in this case I would buy a ballast with PFC even though
more expensive  with a lamp that may live 15 to 20,000 hours .

I build ballasts using  SCRs and made 8 feet long lamps that were placed
vertically in a room corner  for my parents house that when the sold what they
had to move to a small  apartment these lamps were the first that were sold
-- Right now one can make  one of those buying a 15 to 20 dollars
electronic ballast with PFC and an 8  feet lamp or two ( one on each corner or
even
on the ceiling properly  mounted).

Nando

----- Original Message -----
From: _bill.allen@..._ (mailto:bill.allen@...)
To: _microhydro@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:microhydro@yahoogroups.com)
Sent: Thursday, June 14, 2012 07:24
Subject: Re: [microhydro] Re:  energy saver compaign

No dimmers or ceiling fans...but lots of activity  (family of 5). Will
check house power but I'm pretty sure it's ok. Most are 23  watts for 100w
equivalent.
I may be exaggerating a little on the short life  span but I recently took
a bag of about 15 in for recycling. I have started  writing the date on each
base when I put in service. Will  see....

-----Original Message-----
From: Michel Maupoux <_michelm@..._
(mailto:michelm@...) >
Sender:  _microhydro@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:microhydro@yahoogroups.com)
Date:  Wed, 13 Jun 2012 13:41:44
To: <_microhydro@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:microhydro@yahoogroups.com) >
Reply-to:  _microhydro@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:microhydro@yahoogroups.com)
Subject:  Re: [microhydro] Re: energy saver compaign

Bill,
I bought my CFL's  at Home Depot too, but the last ones I bought were 3
years ago. Almost 100%  of light bulbs my house in Washington state are now
CFL and the oldest ones  were the earliest models on sale, 7? 10? years ago.
I've only had to change  3 in all that time.
Do you have a kid who likes to flip your switches on  and off all the time?
or a very unstable voltage from your utility? Both  would have a bad
effect on CFL's life expectancy. Also dimmers if they are  not dimmable
models. Also if installed on ceiling fans, the vibrations will  kill them.

By the way, Home Depot sells several brands, I don't  remember which one I
purchased. Probably an assortment. What I have is  usually 10-15W, sold as
"40 - 60W (incandescent) replacements"

On  Tue, Jun 12, 2012 at 3:52 PM, <_bill.allen@..._
(mailto:bill.allen@...) >  wrote:

> **
>
>
> I would 6-7 months is the life  span I have been getting from what ever
> brand CFL they sell at Home  Depot.
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From:  Manfred Mornhinweg <_manfred@..._ (mailto:manfred@...)
>
> Sender: _microhydro@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:microhydro@yahoogroups.com)
>  Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2012 19:21:51
> To: <_microhydro@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:microhydro@yahoogroups.com) >
>  Reply-to: _microhydro@yahoogroups.com_
(mailto:microhydro@yahoogroups.com)
>  Subject: [microhydro] Re: energy saver compaign
>
> Dear  Deepak,
>
> my reply comes a bit late because I was away from home  and internet for
> a week.
>
> > My experience is some  what bad
> > in this subject. i.e. CFL's of more than 98% brands  including 'Wipro'
> > the popular brand dosen't last for more than 6  - 7 months.
>
> Invest in lamps from better brands. Here in Chile  I can buy Philips CFLs
> at roughly 5 dollars each. They are pretty  good. Westinghouse and
> General Electric ones are cheaper, cause more  radio interference, but
> also work. Among the ones I can get here,  Philips and Westinghouse are
> both highly efficient, while General  Electric are slightly less so.
>
> Anyway, 6-7 months is a  ridiculous lifespan! Don't buy any more of those
> crap lamps. 6-7  YEARS, not months, would be the minimum acceptable
> lifespan for a CFL  used in typical home applications. Typically you can
> expect more than  that lifespan.
>
> > Also about the light spectrum
> >  emitted from CFL's is some what different as the colors look
> >  different in the light of many CFL's. Experts , please comment on
> >  this !
>
> It's true, the spectrum from CFLs is totally different  from that of glow
> bulbs or sunlight.
>
> There are two  basic types of light sources: Blackbody radiators, and
> spectral  radiators. Blackbody radiators emit a continuous spectrum, that
> has a  smooth distribution peaking on a specific wavelength, that depends
> on  the temperature of the hot body. This body is assumed to be black,
>  therefore the name. Bodies that are not black can produce a slightly
>  different spectrum, but not by very much.
>
> Glow bulb filaments  operate at temperatures between about 2200 and 2700
> Kelvin, so that's  their "color temperature", as it is called. This is an
> orange to  yellow light. The sun has a surface temperature like 6000
> Kelvin, so  that is its color temperature. But sunlight arriving on earth
> is  filtered by the atmosphere. Shorter wavelengths are scattered
>  sidewards, longer ones pass more straight. That's why the sky looks
>  blue, and the sun looks light yellow. Pure sunlight arriving on earth
>  ranges from about 4000 Kelvin at noon, to less than 2000 Kelvin during
>  a bloody red sunset. The blue sky instead is like 14,000 Kelvin. If  you
> are in the shadow, lit by blue sky, you get this very bluish  light. But
> if you get a natural mix of direct sunlight and blue sky,  you get about
> 6000 Kelvin at noon, less as the sun goes lower. On an  overcast day, the
> clouds mix the blue skylight with the yellow  sunlight, and the mix is
> again close to 6000 Kelvin at  noon.
>
> Spectral radiators instead can work cold. They work by  exciting atoms,
> and releasing energy quants (photons) as the atoms  de-excite. The
> wavelength of the light emitted depends on the exact  substance that is
> being excited. Several phosphor-based compounds are  used in fluorescent
> lights, and these several phosphors are mixed to  give some radiation in
> each of the ranges of the three basic colors,  red, green and blue, to
> which the human eye reacts. By altering the  mix of phosphors, a
> fluorescent lamp can be made to emit more or less  light of each specific
> color, and that affects its color balance.  Normally fluorescent lamps
> are also specified in color temperature,  which is in this case the
> temperature of a blackbody that would  radiate the closest possible mix
> of wavelengths. But this does not  erase the fact that fluorescent lamps
> emit only specific wavelengths,  and not a continuous spectrum.
>
> For this reason, the colors of  an object can look different, or simply
> plain wrong, under fluorescent  light, as compared to daylight or even
> glow light. If an object  contains a dye that reflects a very only a very
> specific wavelength of  green, and your fluorescent lamp emits three
> spectral lines in the  green range, but none of those falling just on the
> dye's resonance,  then you will see the object being green in daylight
> and in glow  light, but black in fluorescent light! Likewise, a violet
> object (blue  plus red) that reflects a a range of red wavelengths that
> is present  in your fluorescent mix, but a range of blue wavelengths in
> which the  lamp does not radiate, will look red instead of violet in the
> light of  that fluorescent lamp. This can be a serious problem, fro
> example for  electronicians like myself, when trying to read the
> color-coded values  of resistors! Red and orange can often look exactly
> the same in  fluorescent light, and some other light source is needed to
> read the  value.
>
> Fluorescent lamps have two important specifications for  their color. One
> is the already mentioned color temperature. The most  typical ones are
> 2700 to 3300 Kelvin, usually called "warm white",  intended to look
> almost as orange/yellow as a glow lamp; then we have  "daylight" or "cold
> white", which is typically around 6500 Kelvin, and  in between is the
> color temperature that I personally like best,  called "neutral white",
> which is 4000 to 4500 Kelvin. Other color  temperatures are also
> manufactured, but are used in more specialized  applications.
>
> The other specification, often neglected, is the  Color Rendering Index
> (CRI). This is a percentual value, telling how  well the spectrum from a
> lamp matches the equivalent blackbody  spectrum. Very poor fluorescent
> lamps could be as bad as 60%, while  most are better than 80%, with the
> really good ones being above 90%.  None of them can make 100%.
>
> Some manufacturers use a three  figure code, where the first figure is
> the tens of the CRI, and the  other two are the thousands and hundreds of
> the color temperature. For  example, a high quality fluorescent lamp that
> has a CRI of 95% and a  color temperature of 4000 Kelvin, would be coded
>  "940".
>
> By the way, almost all of the above applies to white  LEDs too. They use
> phosphors, much the same as fluorescent lamps. Only  that they are
> excited by an ultraviolet or blue LED, instead of the  ultraviolet
> radiation from a low pressure mercury arc.
>
>  I wish I could find 940 type CFLs locally. The ones I have at present
>  are 840 and 865. Long straight fluorescent tubes are more easily found
>  in 940 color.
>
> Manfred
>
>  ========================
> Visit my hobby homepage!
> _http://ludens.cl_ (http://ludens.cl/)
>  ========================
>
> [Non-text portions of this message  have been removed]
>
>
>

--
Michel  Maupoux
Technical Director
Green  Empowerment
www.greenempowerment.org

[Non-text portions of this  message have been removed]

[Non-text portions of this message have been  removed]

[Non-text portions of this message have been  removed]

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

#15931

From: "Nando" <nando37@...>
Date: Fri Jun 15, 2012 2:48 pm
Subject: Re: Re: energy saver compaign

nando37@...

Ranting following the Rant:

Dimmable CFLS indeed do have a complex circuitry because the CFL has a discharge
principle where the tube it is energized and the tube innards gases have to be
into conduction generating a low impedance path inside the tube and at the same
time the generated plasma has to "activate" the phosphors covering the internal
walls of the tube.

The plasma energy level needs to have certain minimum level to "make" the
phosphors to emit their activated light photons.

Dimmable CFLs have limited range of operation and this range has to go along
with the human eyes capabilities and the effects of the light energy pulsing
that may affect the human cerebral own " Lithium" operated "computer" that is
extremely sensitive to the light energy levels and colors and as well the
possibility of the light pulsing at rates that may affect the human "computer".

LEDs due to their fast switching capabilities are logically better for variable
light level control that do not affect the human " computer" basic sensor = the
eyes , with the light level pulsing that are integrated to give the sensation of
being having a much lower level light source and often not affecting the brain
basic operating status.

Dimmable LEDs need to be pulsed to avoid light emitted Kelvin temperature
variations that can be noticed if the LEDs have a DC current that is linearly
variable, this for the same reasons that the fluorescent lamps have, the energy
level needed to excite the phosphors to produce their Kelvin temperature levels.

The government decision of stopping the production of the resistive incandescent
lamps was not well explained and defined for the general population to
understand the reasons for such conversion.

I did not paid  enough attention to such decision that may have started long ago
though there are reasons to have the availability of the resistive incandescent
lamps available and one of them is that there is a certain % of the population
that are highly more sensitive to the high frequency light pulses of the
fluorescent lamps.

Resistive Incandescent have a light intensity that varies with the frequency of
the energy applied to it , though the % of the light level is basically low
enough that does not affect the great majority of the people.

Nando

   ----- Original Message -----
   From: jrkess98@...
   To: microhydro@yahoogroups.com
   Sent: Thursday, June 14, 2012 18:24
   Subject: Re: [microhydro] Re: energy saver compaign

   Rant follows:
   Just to jump in here...those big, efficient tubes (AND CFLs) are fine in an
   industrial or utility setting, but can they be dimmed? I work a bit in
   the lighting game and that is the biggest complaint about this forced
   wholesale change to arc-lighting. Civilized people have (and require) dimmable
   lighting in their residences. Do we just buy 50 spare bulbs (and extra
   transformers for low-voltage) and let the next generations fend for
themselves?
   Many people I know have 'stocked up' on old E-27 (and B-22) incandescents
   as they become more difficult to find, FORCED by mindless national and
   regional legislation.

   I THINK I have seen dimmable fluorescents but they are highly complex,
   hopelessly expensive, and they flicker. Borderline useless.

   John Kessler
   Ft. Lauderdale

   In a message dated 6/14/2012 5:12:04 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
   nando37@... writes:

   To All:

   One problem that is now appearing with the CFLs is that the semiconductors
   being used are voltage breakdown limited too close to the peak voltage of
   the AC voltage, therefore with great chances of the semiconductors to fail
   in a mode that may look like a burnout lamp.

   The GRID electrical system in a nation varies dramatically from city to
   city , county to county state to state and country to country.

   The GRID system is supposed to have equipment to keep the AC Voltage close
   to the design limits, like for the 230 Volts the maximum voltage that
   should "ARRIVE" to a home should not be more than about 1.07 % of the nominal
   voltage , in this case 230 * 1.07 = 246 Volts (now the 7% variation may be
   different in different places ) .

   Like in Nepal it is a 230 Volts and you can read often 260 Volts therefore
   in some of those places have autovariable transformers to keep the
   incoming voltage stable --- In years past I designed several transformers and
I
   remember designing one of I believe 10 KW capable of regulating from 190 to
   280 Volts to put out 230 volts fixed that was varied every one hertz at the
   ZERO crossing of the sine wave plus the addition of spike suppressor ( like
   secondary lightning effects on the power Grid voltages ).

   So a great deal of the CFLs end of life are suicide effects due to the
   power Grid spikes.

   The CFLs electronic ballasts I have designed 1) all of them are PFC= Power
   Factor Corrected 2 ) Spike protected with high power capabilities and not
   with the miniscule protectors Varistors that most CFLs ballasts may have.

   If the CFL has PFC then it is simple to protect the CFL against those
   power Spikes that may blow the CFL ballast because the input inductor plus the
   protecting circuit limit the voltage to a safe value toward the ballast
   oscillator circuits.

   The SPIRAL lamps , the great majority of them, do not have PFC and if you
   find CFLs that indicate that they are PFC that lamp should be the
   preferable one to buy even if the price is much higher .

   The CFL with PFC has the highest voltage breakdown semiconductors
   therefore the one with the best chances to survive long term.

   The Electronic ballasts for the long tubes are the one that most of the
   time have PFC and in this case I would buy a ballast with PFC even though
   more expensive with a lamp that may live 15 to 20,000 hours .

   I build ballasts using SCRs and made 8 feet long lamps that were placed
   vertically in a room corner for my parents house that when the sold what they
   had to move to a small apartment these lamps were the first that were sold
   -- Right now one can make one of those buying a 15 to 20 dollars
   electronic ballast with PFC and an 8 feet lamp or two ( one on each corner or
even
   on the ceiling properly mounted).

   Nando

   ----- Original Message -----
   From: _bill.allen@..._ (mailto:bill.allen@...)
   To: _microhydro@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:microhydro@yahoogroups.com)
   Sent: Thursday, June 14, 2012 07:24
   Subject: Re: [microhydro] Re: energy saver compaign

   No dimmers or ceiling fans...but lots of activity (family of 5). Will
   check house power but I'm pretty sure it's ok. Most are 23 watts for 100w
   equivalent.
   I may be exaggerating a little on the short life span but I recently took
   a bag of about 15 in for recycling. I have started writing the date on each
   base when I put in service. Will see....

   -----Original Message-----
   From: Michel Maupoux <_michelm@..._
   (mailto:michelm@...) >
   Sender: _microhydro@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:microhydro@yahoogroups.com)
   Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2012 13:41:44
   To: <_microhydro@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:microhydro@yahoogroups.com) >
   Reply-to: _microhydro@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:microhydro@yahoogroups.com)
   Subject: Re: [microhydro] Re: energy saver compaign

   Bill,
   I bought my CFL's at Home Depot too, but the last ones I bought were 3
   years ago. Almost 100% of light bulbs my house in Washington state are now
   CFL and the oldest ones were the earliest models on sale, 7? 10? years ago.
   I've only had to change 3 in all that time.
   Do you have a kid who likes to flip your switches on and off all the time?
   or a very unstable voltage from your utility? Both would have a bad
   effect on CFL's life expectancy. Also dimmers if they are not dimmable
   models. Also if installed on ceiling fans, the vibrations will kill them.

   By the way, Home Depot sells several brands, I don't remember which one I
   purchased. Probably an assortment. What I have is usually 10-15W, sold as
   "40 - 60W (incandescent) replacements"

   On Tue, Jun 12, 2012 at 3:52 PM, <_bill.allen@..._
   (mailto:bill.allen@...) > wrote:

   > **
   >
   >
   > I would 6-7 months is the life span I have been getting from what ever
   > brand CFL they sell at Home Depot.
   >
   >
   > -----Original Message-----
   > From: Manfred Mornhinweg <_manfred@..._ (mailto:manfred@...)
   >
   > Sender: _microhydro@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:microhydro@yahoogroups.com)
   > Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2012 19:21:51
   > To: <_microhydro@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:microhydro@yahoogroups.com) >
   > Reply-to: _microhydro@yahoogroups.com_
   (mailto:microhydro@yahoogroups.com)
   > Subject: [microhydro] Re: energy saver compaign
   >
   > Dear Deepak,
   >
   > my reply comes a bit late because I was away from home and internet for
   > a week.
   >
   > > My experience is some what bad
   > > in this subject. i.e. CFL's of more than 98% brands including 'Wipro'
   > > the popular brand dosen't last for more than 6 - 7 months.
   >
   > Invest in lamps from better brands. Here in Chile I can buy Philips CFLs
   > at roughly 5 dollars each. They are pretty good. Westinghouse and
   > General Electric ones are cheaper, cause more radio interference, but
   > also work. Among the ones I can get here, Philips and Westinghouse are
   > both highly efficient, while General Electric are slightly less so.
   >
   > Anyway, 6-7 months is a ridiculous lifespan! Don't buy any more of those
   > crap lamps. 6-7 YEARS, not months, would be the minimum acceptable
   > lifespan for a CFL used in typical home applications. Typically you can
   > expect more than that lifespan.
   >
   > > Also about the light spectrum
   > > emitted from CFL's is some what different as the colors look
   > > different in the light of many CFL's. Experts , please comment on
   > > this !
   >
   > It's true, the spectrum from CFLs is totally different from that of glow
   > bulbs or sunlight.
   >
   > There are two basic types of light sources: Blackbody radiators, and
   > spectral radiators. Blackbody radiators emit a continuous spectrum, that
   > has a smooth distribution peaking on a specific wavelength, that depends
   > on the temperature of the hot body. This body is assumed to be black,
   > therefore the name. Bodies that are not black can produce a slightly
   > different spectrum, but not by very much.
   >
   > Glow bulb filaments operate at temperatures between about 2200 and 2700
   > Kelvin, so that's their "color temperature", as it is called. This is an
   > orange to yellow light. The sun has a surface temperature like 6000
   > Kelvin, so that is its color temperature. But sunlight arriving on earth
   > is filtered by the atmosphere. Shorter wavelengths are scattered
   > sidewards, longer ones pass more straight. That's why the sky looks
   > blue, and the sun looks light yellow. Pure sunlight arriving on earth
   > ranges from about 4000 Kelvin at noon, to less than 2000 Kelvin during
   > a bloody red sunset. The blue sky instead is like 14,000 Kelvin. If you
   > are in the shadow, lit by blue sky, you get this very bluish light. But
   > if you get a natural mix of direct sunlight and blue sky, you get about
   > 6000 Kelvin at noon, less as the sun goes lower. On an overcast day, the
   > clouds mix the blue skylight with the yellow sunlight, and the mix is
   > again close to 6000 Kelvin at noon.
   >
   > Spectral radiators instead can work cold. They work by exciting atoms,
   > and releasing energy quants (photons) as the atoms de-excite. The
   > wavelength of the light emitted depends on the exact substance that is
   > being excited. Several phosphor-based compounds are used in fluorescent
   > lights, and these several phosphors are mixed to give some radiation in
   > each of the ranges of the three basic colors, red, green and blue, to
   > which the human eye reacts. By altering the mix of phosphors, a
   > fluorescent lamp can be made to emit more or less light of each specific
   > color, and that affects its color balance. Normally fluorescent lamps
   > are also specified in color temperature, which is in this case the
   > temperature of a blackbody that would radiate the closest possible mix
   > of wavelengths. But this does not erase the fact that fluorescent lamps
   > emit only specific wavelengths, and not a continuous spectrum.
   >
   > For this reason, the colors of an object can look different, or simply
   > plain wrong, under fluorescent light, as compared to daylight or even
   > glow light. If an object contains a dye that reflects a very only a very
   > specific wavelength of green, and your fluorescent lamp emits three
   > spectral lines in the green range, but none of those falling just on the
   > dye's resonance, then you will see the object being green in daylight
   > and in glow light, but black in fluorescent light! Likewise, a violet
   > object (blue plus red) that reflects a a range of red wavelengths that
   > is present in your fluorescent mix, but a range of blue wavelengths in
   > which the lamp does not radiate, will look red instead of violet in the
   > light of that fluorescent lamp. This can be a serious problem, fro
   > example for electronicians like myself, when trying to read the
   > color-coded values of resistors! Red and orange can often look exactly
   > the same in fluorescent light, and some other light source is needed to
   > read the value.
   >
   > Fluorescent lamps have two important specifications for their color. One
   > is the already mentioned color temperature. The most typical ones are
   > 2700 to 3300 Kelvin, usually called "warm white", intended to look
   > almost as orange/yellow as a glow lamp; then we have "daylight" or "cold
   > white", which is typically around 6500 Kelvin, and in between is the
   > color temperature that I personally like best, called "neutral white",
   > which is 4000 to 4500 Kelvin. Other color temperatures are also
   > manufactured, but are used in more specialized applications.
   >
   > The other specification, often neglected, is the Color Rendering Index
   > (CRI). This is a percentual value, telling how well the spectrum from a
   > lamp matches the equivalent blackbody spectrum. Very poor fluorescent
   > lamps could be as bad as 60%, while most are better than 80%, with the
   > really good ones being above 90%. None of them can make 100%.
   >
   > Some manufacturers use a three figure code, where the first figure is
   > the tens of the CRI, and the other two are the thousands and hundreds of
   > the color temperature. For example, a high quality fluorescent lamp that
   > has a CRI of 95% and a color temperature of 4000 Kelvin, would be coded
   > "940".
   >
   > By the way, almost all of the above applies to white LEDs too. They use
   > phosphors, much the same as fluorescent lamps. Only that they are
   > excited by an ultraviolet or blue LED, instead of the ultraviolet
   > radiation from a low pressure mercury arc.
   >
   > I wish I could find 940 type CFLs locally. The ones I have at present
   > are 840 and 865. Long straight fluorescent tubes are more easily found
   > in 940 color.
   >
   > Manfred
   >
   > ========================
   > Visit my hobby homepage!
   > _http://ludens.cl_ (http://ludens.cl/)
   > ========================
   >
   > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
   >
   >
   >

   --
   Michel Maupoux
   Technical Director
   Green Empowerment
   www.greenempowerment.org

   [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

   [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

   [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

   [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

#15932

From: rkweir@...
Date: Fri Jun 15, 2012 3:18 pm
Subject: Utilizing Wastewater for power

rkweir@...

Hey guys and Ladies,
   I have a friend that is inquiring about generating power using
wastewater that will be fed to a terminal treatment plant on the coast. We don't
know the exact flows yet but we do know that there is approximately 600  feet
of head over the plant. This said is there anyone that has ventured into
such a project? Being a screen guy I think that I can take out everything that
would interfere with a turbine, but it will be a challenge. I look forward
to  any feedback that can be provided. Thanks in advance.

Bob

Robert K.  Weir P.E.
Hydroscreen CO. LLC
303-333-6071
Fax 303-393-8298
e-mail  rkweir@...
_www.hydroscreen.com_ (http://www.hydroscreen.com/)

"We don't  just sell screens, we engineer solutions"

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

#15933

From: "Nando" <nando37@...>
Date: Fri Jun 15, 2012 3:28 pm
Subject: Re: Re: energy saver compaign

nando37@...

A natural dimmable CFL arrangement is the addition of having multiple CFLs fed
by a single electronic ballast and the circuit capability of turning off
multiple CFL tubes in a sequence and space located to give the impression of
lower light levels and the controller with capabilities, now possible this due
to the micro processors, to control and regulate which are needed and even to
supplement the CFL that may have gone "dead" .

Electronic ballast are now available that have as well, human presence detection
to turn them on/off automatically with capabilities of minimum light or non in a
room to insure minimum power usage.

Lets not fear the " CFLs fear mongers " and learn the truth of the Mercury --
the world produces a great deal more Mercury when Coal is burn that the 
processing of the ores to extract the Mercury for industrial and CFLs industry .

We and as human race needs to be logical and reasonable and to be able to use
the earth materials wisely and carefully to avoid generating secondary problems
or diseases .

We need to be wise and the Solar panels are logical for certain areas but not
the solution for all the areas -- same  thing goes for the atomic energy -- but
in this case to make sure that the reactors are not water based but LFTR -
Liquid Fluoride Thorium Reactors that have a natural safety principles but due
to the stupidity of our governments the decision to use the water based reactors
requiring high pressure large vessels to contain water at around 90 Bars
pressure is a condition of disaster as shown now with the several reactors going
"crazy" due to nature or human errors.  The LFTR does not have such problem ,
open a valve and the reactor goes OFF safely.

I invite you people to see Youtube videos on LFTR .

Nando

   ----- Original Message -----
   From: jrkess98@...
   To: microhydro@yahoogroups.com
   Sent: Thursday, June 14, 2012 18:24
   Subject: Re: [microhydro] Re: energy saver compaign

   Rant follows:
   Just to jump in here...those big, efficient tubes (AND CFLs) are fine in an
   industrial or utility setting, but can they be dimmed? I work a bit in
   the lighting game and that is the biggest complaint about this forced
   wholesale change to arc-lighting. Civilized people have (and require) dimmable
   lighting in their residences. Do we just buy 50 spare bulbs (and extra
   transformers for low-voltage) and let the next generations fend for
themselves?
   Many people I know have 'stocked up' on old E-27 (and B-22) incandescents
   as they become more difficult to find, FORCED by mindless national and
   regional legislation.

   I THINK I have seen dimmable fluorescents but they are highly complex,
   hopelessly expensive, and they flicker. Borderline useless.

   John Kessler
   Ft. Lauderdale

   In a message dated 6/14/2012 5:12:04 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
   nando37@... writes:

   To All:

   One problem that is now appearing with the CFLs is that the semiconductors
   being used are voltage breakdown limited too close to the peak voltage of
   the AC voltage, therefore with great chances of the semiconductors to fail
   in a mode that may look like a burnout lamp.

   The GRID electrical system in a nation varies dramatically from city to
   city , county to county state to state and country to country.

   The GRID system is supposed to have equipment to keep the AC Voltage close
   to the design limits, like for the 230 Volts the maximum voltage that
   should "ARRIVE" to a home should not be more than about 1.07 % of the nominal
   voltage , in this case 230 * 1.07 = 246 Volts (now the 7% variation may be
   different in different places ) .

   Like in Nepal it is a 230 Volts and you can read often 260 Volts therefore
   in some of those places have autovariable transformers to keep the
   incoming voltage stable --- In years past I designed several transformers and
I
   remember designing one of I believe 10 KW capable of regulating from 190 to
   280 Volts to put out 230 volts fixed that was varied every one hertz at the
   ZERO crossing of the sine wave plus the addition of spike suppressor ( like
   secondary lightning effects on the power Grid voltages ).

   So a great deal of the CFLs end of life are suicide effects due to the
   power Grid spikes.

   The CFLs electronic ballasts I have designed 1) all of them are PFC= Power
   Factor Corrected 2 ) Spike protected with high power capabilities and not
   with the miniscule protectors Varistors that most CFLs ballasts may have.

   If the CFL has PFC then it is simple to protect the CFL against those
   power Spikes that may blow the CFL ballast because the input inductor plus the
   protecting circuit limit the voltage to a safe value toward the ballast
   oscillator circuits.

   The SPIRAL lamps , the great majority of them, do not have PFC and if you
   find CFLs that indicate that they are PFC that lamp should be the
   preferable one to buy even if the price is much higher .

   The CFL with PFC has the highest voltage breakdown semiconductors
   therefore the one with the best chances to survive long term.

   The Electronic ballasts for the long tubes are the one that most of the
   time have PFC and in this case I would buy a ballast with PFC even though
   more expensive with a lamp that may live 15 to 20,000 hours .

   I build ballasts using SCRs and made 8 feet long lamps that were placed
   vertically in a room corner for my parents house that when the sold what they
   had to move to a small apartment these lamps were the first that were sold
   -- Right now one can make one of those buying a 15 to 20 dollars
   electronic ballast with PFC and an 8 feet lamp or two ( one on each corner or
even
   on the ceiling properly mounted).

   Nando

   ----- Original Message -----
   From: _bill.allen@..._ (mailto:bill.allen@...)
   To: _microhydro@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:microhydro@yahoogroups.com)
   Sent: Thursday, June 14, 2012 07:24
   Subject: Re: [microhydro] Re: energy saver compaign

   No dimmers or ceiling fans...but lots of activity (family of 5). Will
   check house power but I'm pretty sure it's ok. Most are 23 watts for 100w
   equivalent.
   I may be exaggerating a little on the short life span but I recently took
   a bag of about 15 in for recycling. I have started writing the date on each
   base when I put in service. Will see....

   -----Original Message-----
   From: Michel Maupoux <_michelm@..._
   (mailto:michelm@...) >
   Sender: _microhydro@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:microhydro@yahoogroups.com)
   Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2012 13:41:44
   To: <_microhydro@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:microhydro@yahoogroups.com) >
   Reply-to: _microhydro@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:microhydro@yahoogroups.com)
   Subject: Re: [microhydro] Re: energy saver compaign

   Bill,
   I bought my CFL's at Home Depot too, but the last ones I bought were 3
   years ago. Almost 100% of light bulbs my house in Washington state are now
   CFL and the oldest ones were the earliest models on sale, 7? 10? years ago.
   I've only had to change 3 in all that time.
   Do you have a kid who likes to flip your switches on and off all the time?
   or a very unstable voltage from your utility? Both would have a bad
   effect on CFL's life expectancy. Also dimmers if they are not dimmable
   models. Also if installed on ceiling fans, the vibrations will kill them.

   By the way, Home Depot sells several brands, I don't remember which one I
   purchased. Probably an assortment. What I have is usually 10-15W, sold as
   "40 - 60W (incandescent) replacements"

   On Tue, Jun 12, 2012 at 3:52 PM, <_bill.allen@..._
   (mailto:bill.allen@...) > wrote:

   > **
   >
   >
   > I would 6-7 months is the life span I have been getting from what ever
   > brand CFL they sell at Home Depot.
   >
   >
   > -----Original Message-----
   > From: Manfred Mornhinweg <_manfred@..._ (mailto:manfred@...)
   >
   > Sender: _microhydro@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:microhydro@yahoogroups.com)
   > Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2012 19:21:51
   > To: <_microhydro@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:microhydro@yahoogroups.com) >
   > Reply-to: _microhydro@yahoogroups.com_
   (mailto:microhydro@yahoogroups.com)
   > Subject: [microhydro] Re: energy saver compaign
   >
   > Dear Deepak,
   >
   > my reply comes a bit late because I was away from home and internet for
   > a week.
   >
   > > My experience is some what bad
   > > in this subject. i.e. CFL's of more than 98% brands including 'Wipro'
   > > the popular brand dosen't last for more than 6 - 7 months.
   >
   > Invest in lamps from better brands. Here in Chile I can buy Philips CFLs
   > at roughly 5 dollars each. They are pretty good. Westinghouse and
   > General Electric ones are cheaper, cause more radio interference, but
   > also work. Among the ones I can get here, Philips and Westinghouse are
   > both highly efficient, while General Electric are slightly less so.
   >
   > Anyway, 6-7 months is a ridiculous lifespan! Don't buy any more of those
   > crap lamps. 6-7 YEARS, not months, would be the minimum acceptable
   > lifespan for a CFL used in typical home applications. Typically you can
   > expect more than that lifespan.
   >
   > > Also about the light spectrum
   > > emitted from CFL's is some what different as the colors look
   > > different in the light of many CFL's. Experts , please comment on
   > > this !
   >
   > It's true, the spectrum from CFLs is totally different from that of glow
   > bulbs or sunlight.
   >
   > There are two basic types of light sources: Blackbody radiators, and
   > spectral radiators. Blackbody radiators emit a continuous spectrum, that
   > has a smooth distribution peaking on a specific wavelength, that depends
   > on the temperature of the hot body. This body is assumed to be black,
   > therefore the name. Bodies that are not black can produce a slightly
   > different spectrum, but not by very much.
   >
   > Glow bulb filaments operate at temperatures between about 2200 and 2700
   > Kelvin, so that's their "color temperature", as it is called. This is an
   > orange to yellow light. The sun has a surface temperature like 6000
   > Kelvin, so that is its color temperature. But sunlight arriving on earth
   > is filtered by the atmosphere. Shorter wavelengths are scattered
   > sidewards, longer ones pass more straight. That's why the sky looks
   > blue, and the sun looks light yellow. Pure sunlight arriving on earth
   > ranges from about 4000 Kelvin at noon, to less than 2000 Kelvin during
   > a bloody red sunset. The blue sky instead is like 14,000 Kelvin. If you
   > are in the shadow, lit by blue sky, you get this very bluish light. But
   > if you get a natural mix of direct sunlight and blue sky, you get about
   > 6000 Kelvin at noon, less as the sun goes lower. On an overcast day, the
   > clouds mix the blue skylight with the yellow sunlight, and the mix is
   > again close to 6000 Kelvin at noon.
   >
   > Spectral radiators instead can work cold. They work by exciting atoms,
   > and releasing energy quants (photons) as the atoms de-excite. The
   > wavelength of the light emitted depends on the exact substance that is
   > being excited. Several phosphor-based compounds are used in fluorescent
   > lights, and these several phosphors are mixed to give some radiation in
   > each of the ranges of the three basic colors, red, green and blue, to
   > which the human eye reacts. By altering the mix of phosphors, a
   > fluorescent lamp can be made to emit more or less light of each specific
   > color, and that affects its color balance. Normally fluorescent lamps
   > are also specified in color temperature, which is in this case the
   > temperature of a blackbody that would radiate the closest possible mix
   > of wavelengths. But this does not erase the fact that fluorescent lamps
   > emit only specific wavelengths, and not a continuous spectrum.
   >
   > For this reason, the colors of an object can look different, or simply
   > plain wrong, under fluorescent light, as compared to daylight or even
   > glow light. If an object contains a dye that reflects a very only a very
   > specific wavelength of green, and your fluorescent lamp emits three
   > spectral lines in the green range, but none of those falling just on the
   > dye's resonance, then you will see the object being green in daylight
   > and in glow light, but black in fluorescent light! Likewise, a violet
   > object (blue plus red) that reflects a a range of red wavelengths that
   > is present in your fluorescent mix, but a range of blue wavelengths in
   > which the lamp does not radiate, will look red instead of violet in the
   > light of that fluorescent lamp. This can be a serious problem, fro
   > example for electronicians like myself, when trying to read the
   > color-coded values of resistors! Red and orange can often look exactly
   > the same in fluorescent light, and some other light source is needed to
   > read the value.
   >
   > Fluorescent lamps have two important specifications for their color. One
   > is the already mentioned color temperature. The most typical ones are
   > 2700 to 3300 Kelvin, usually called "warm white", intended to look
   > almost as orange/yellow as a glow lamp; then we have "daylight" or "cold
   > white", which is typically around 6500 Kelvin, and in between is the
   > color temperature that I personally like best, called "neutral white",
   > which is 4000 to 4500 Kelvin. Other color temperatures are also
   > manufactured, but are used in more specialized applications.
   >
   > The other specification, often neglected, is the Color Rendering Index
   > (CRI). This is a percentual value, telling how well the spectrum from a
   > lamp matches the equivalent blackbody spectrum. Very poor fluorescent
   > lamps could be as bad as 60%, while most are better than 80%, with the
   > really good ones being above 90%. None of them can make 100%.
   >
   > Some manufacturers use a three figure code, where the first figure is
   > the tens of the CRI, and the other two are the thousands and hundreds of
   > the color temperature. For example, a high quality fluorescent lamp that
   > has a CRI of 95% and a color temperature of 4000 Kelvin, would be coded
   > "940".
   >
   > By the way, almost all of the above applies to white LEDs too. They use
   > phosphors, much the same as fluorescent lamps. Only that they are
   > excited by an ultraviolet or blue LED, instead of the ultraviolet
   > radiation from a low pressure mercury arc.
   >
   > I wish I could find 940 type CFLs locally. The ones I have at present
   > are 840 and 865. Long straight fluorescent tubes are more easily found
   > in 940 color.
   >
   > Manfred
   >
   > ========================
   > Visit my hobby homepage!
   > _http://ludens.cl_ (http://ludens.cl/)
   > ========================
   >
   > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
   >
   >
   >

   --
   Michel Maupoux
   Technical Director
   Green Empowerment
   www.greenempowerment.org

   [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

   [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

   [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

   [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

#15934

From: Michel Maupoux <michelm@...>
Date: Fri Jun 15, 2012 3:51 pm
Subject: Re: Re: energy saver compaign

michelmge

John,
"civilized people have dimmable"?  I grew up in Europe and never saw one
(I'm 60).
Been in the US for 27 years, and the only time we used a dimmable was when
we had babies, to have very low amount of light in their room when we had
to get up in the middle of the night.  A "night light" would have done the
same job.
I work in villages in various developing countries where people are happy
to get electric lights for the first time, and they use only 1 or 2 light
bulbs at any time.   No need for dimming either.

The only reason to have a dimmable would be if your light is too strong to
begin with.   Why not just limit the number of light bulbs you use in the
first place?

On Thu, Jun 14, 2012 at 4:24 PM, <jrkess98@...> wrote:

> **
>
>
> Rant follows:
> Just to jump in here...those big, efficient tubes (AND CFLs) are fine in
> an
> industrial or utility setting, but can they be dimmed? I work a bit in
> the lighting game and that is the biggest complaint about this forced
> wholesale change to arc-lighting. Civilized people have (and require)
> dimmable
> lighting in their residences. Do we just buy 50 spare bulbs (and extra
> transformers for low-voltage) and let the next generations fend for
> themselves?
> Many people I know have 'stocked up' on old E-27 (and B-22) incandescents
> as they become more difficult to find, FORCED by mindless national and
> regional legislation.
>
> I THINK I have seen dimmable fluorescents but they are highly complex,
> hopelessly expensive, and they flicker. Borderline useless.
>
> John Kessler
> Ft. Lauderdale
>
>
> In a message dated 6/14/2012 5:12:04 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
> nando37@... writes:
>
> To All:
>
> One problem that is now appearing with the CFLs is that the semiconductors
> being used are voltage breakdown limited too close to the peak voltage of
> the AC voltage, therefore with great chances of the semiconductors to fail
> in a mode that may look like a burnout lamp.
>
> The GRID electrical system in a nation varies dramatically from city to
> city , county to county state to state and country to country.
>
> The GRID system is supposed to have equipment to keep the AC Voltage close
> to the design limits, like for the 230 Volts the maximum voltage that
> should "ARRIVE" to a home should not be more than about 1.07 % of the
> nominal
> voltage , in this case 230 * 1.07 = 246 Volts (now the 7% variation may be
> different in different places ) .
>
> Like in Nepal it is a 230 Volts and you can read often 260 Volts therefore
> in some of those places have autovariable transformers to keep the
> incoming voltage stable --- In years past I designed several transformers
> and I
> remember designing one of I believe 10 KW capable of regulating from 190
> to
> 280 Volts to put out 230 volts fixed that was varied every one hertz at
> the
> ZERO crossing of the sine wave plus the addition of spike suppressor (
> like
> secondary lightning effects on the power Grid voltages ).
>
> So a great deal of the CFLs end of life are suicide effects due to the
> power Grid spikes.
>
> The CFLs electronic ballasts I have designed 1) all of them are PFC= Power
> Factor Corrected 2 ) Spike protected with high power capabilities and not
> with the miniscule protectors Varistors that most CFLs ballasts may have.
>
> If the CFL has PFC then it is simple to protect the CFL against those
> power Spikes that may blow the CFL ballast because the input inductor plus
> the
> protecting circuit limit the voltage to a safe value toward the ballast
> oscillator circuits.
>
> The SPIRAL lamps , the great majority of them, do not have PFC and if you
> find CFLs that indicate that they are PFC that lamp should be the
> preferable one to buy even if the price is much higher .
>
> The CFL with PFC has the highest voltage breakdown semiconductors
> therefore the one with the best chances to survive long term.
>
> The Electronic ballasts for the long tubes are the one that most of the
> time have PFC and in this case I would buy a ballast with PFC even though
> more expensive with a lamp that may live 15 to 20,000 hours .
>
> I build ballasts using SCRs and made 8 feet long lamps that were placed
> vertically in a room corner for my parents house that when the sold what
> they
> had to move to a small apartment these lamps were the first that were sold
> -- Right now one can make one of those buying a 15 to 20 dollars
> electronic ballast with PFC and an 8 feet lamp or two ( one on each corner
> or even
> on the ceiling properly mounted).
>
> Nando
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: _bill.allen@..._ (mailto:bill.allen@...)
> To: _microhydro@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:microhydro@yahoogroups.com)
> Sent: Thursday, June 14, 2012 07:24
> Subject: Re: [microhydro] Re: energy saver compaign
>
> No dimmers or ceiling fans...but lots of activity (family of 5). Will
> check house power but I'm pretty sure it's ok. Most are 23 watts for 100w
> equivalent.
> I may be exaggerating a little on the short life span but I recently took
> a bag of about 15 in for recycling. I have started writing the date on
> each
> base when I put in service. Will see....
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Michel Maupoux <_michelm@..._
> (mailto:michelm@...) >
> Sender: _microhydro@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:microhydro@yahoogroups.com)
> Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2012 13:41:44
> To: <_microhydro@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:microhydro@yahoogroups.com) >
> Reply-to: _microhydro@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:microhydro@yahoogroups.com)
>
> Subject: Re: [microhydro] Re: energy saver compaign
>
> Bill,
> I bought my CFL's at Home Depot too, but the last ones I bought were 3
> years ago. Almost 100% of light bulbs my house in Washington state are now
> CFL and the oldest ones were the earliest models on sale, 7? 10? years ago.
> I've only had to change 3 in all that time.
> Do you have a kid who likes to flip your switches on and off all the time?
> or a very unstable voltage from your utility? Both would have a bad
> effect on CFL's life expectancy. Also dimmers if they are not dimmable
> models. Also if installed on ceiling fans, the vibrations will kill them.
>
> By the way, Home Depot sells several brands, I don't remember which one I
> purchased. Probably an assortment. What I have is usually 10-15W, sold as
> "40 - 60W (incandescent) replacements"
>
> On Tue, Jun 12, 2012 at 3:52 PM, <_bill.allen@..._
> (mailto:bill.allen@...) > wrote:
>
> > **
> >
> >
> > I would 6-7 months is the life span I have been getting from what ever
> > brand CFL they sell at Home Depot.
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Manfred Mornhinweg <_manfred@..._ (mailto:manfred@...)
>
> >
> > Sender: _microhydro@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:microhydro@yahoogroups.com)
>
> > Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2012 19:21:51
> > To: <_microhydro@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:microhydro@yahoogroups.com) >
> > Reply-to: _microhydro@yahoogroups.com_
> (mailto:microhydro@yahoogroups.com)
> > Subject: [microhydro] Re: energy saver compaign
> >
> > Dear Deepak,
> >
> > my reply comes a bit late because I was away from home and internet for
> > a week.
> >
> > > My experience is some what bad
> > > in this subject. i.e. CFL's of more than 98% brands including 'Wipro'
> > > the popular brand dosen't last for more than 6 - 7 months.
> >
> > Invest in lamps from better brands. Here in Chile I can buy Philips CFLs
> > at roughly 5 dollars each. They are pretty good. Westinghouse and
> > General Electric ones are cheaper, cause more radio interference, but
> > also work. Among the ones I can get here, Philips and Westinghouse are
> > both highly efficient, while General Electric are slightly less so.
> >
> > Anyway, 6-7 months is a ridiculous lifespan! Don't buy any more of those
> > crap lamps. 6-7 YEARS, not months, would be the minimum acceptable
> > lifespan for a CFL used in typical home applications. Typically you can
> > expect more than that lifespan.
> >
> > > Also about the light spectrum
> > > emitted from CFL's is some what different as the colors look
> > > different in the light of many CFL's. Experts , please comment on
> > > this !
> >
> > It's true, the spectrum from CFLs is totally different from that of glow
> > bulbs or sunlight.
> >
> > There are two basic types of light sources: Blackbody radiators, and
> > spectral radiators. Blackbody radiators emit a continuous spectrum, that
> > has a smooth distribution peaking on a specific wavelength, that depends
> > on the temperature of the hot body. This body is assumed to be black,
> > therefore the name. Bodies that are not black can produce a slightly
> > different spectrum, but not by very much.
> >
> > Glow bulb filaments operate at temperatures between about 2200 and 2700
> > Kelvin, so that's their "color temperature", as it is called. This is an
> > orange to yellow light. The sun has a surface temperature like 6000
> > Kelvin, so that is its color temperature. But sunlight arriving on earth
> > is filtered by the atmosphere. Shorter wavelengths are scattered
> > sidewards, longer ones pass more straight. That's why the sky looks
> > blue, and the sun looks light yellow. Pure sunlight arriving on earth
> > ranges from about 4000 Kelvin at noon, to less than 2000 Kelvin during
> > a bloody red sunset. The blue sky instead is like 14,000 Kelvin. If you
> > are in the shadow, lit by blue sky, you get this very bluish light. But
> > if you get a natural mix of direct sunlight and blue sky, you get about
> > 6000 Kelvin at noon, less as the sun goes lower. On an overcast day, the
> > clouds mix the blue skylight with the yellow sunlight, and the mix is
> > again close to 6000 Kelvin at noon.
> >
> > Spectral radiators instead can work cold. They work by exciting atoms,
> > and releasing energy quants (photons) as the atoms de-excite. The
> > wavelength of the light emitted depends on the exact substance that is
> > being excited. Several phosphor-based compounds are used in fluorescent
> > lights, and these several phosphors are mixed to give some radiation in
> > each of the ranges of the three basic colors, red, green and blue, to
> > which the human eye reacts. By altering the mix of phosphors, a
> > fluorescent lamp can be made to emit more or less light of each specific
> > color, and that affects its color balance. Normally fluorescent lamps
> > are also specified in color temperature, which is in this case the
> > temperature of a blackbody that would radiate the closest possible mix
> > of wavelengths. But this does not erase the fact that fluorescent lamps
> > emit only specific wavelengths, and not a continuous spectrum.
> >
> > For this reason, the colors of an object can look different, or simply
> > plain wrong, under fluorescent light, as compared to daylight or even
> > glow light. If an object contains a dye that reflects a very only a very
> > specific wavelength of green, and your fluorescent lamp emits three
> > spectral lines in the green range, but none of those falling just on the
> > dye's resonance, then you will see the object being green in daylight
> > and in glow light, but black in fluorescent light! Likewise, a violet
> > object (blue plus red) that reflects a a range of red wavelengths that
> > is present in your fluorescent mix, but a range of blue wavelengths in
> > which the lamp does not radiate, will look red instead of violet in the
> > light of that fluorescent lamp. This can be a serious problem, fro
> > example for electronicians like myself, when trying to read the
> > color-coded values of resistors! Red and orange can often look exactly
> > the same in fluorescent light, and some other light source is needed to
> > read the value.
> >
> > Fluorescent lamps have two important specifications for their color. One
> > is the already mentioned color temperature. The most typical ones are
> > 2700 to 3300 Kelvin, usually called "warm white", intended to look
> > almost as orange/yellow as a glow lamp; then we have "daylight" or "cold
> > white", which is typically around 6500 Kelvin, and in between is the
> > color temperature that I personally like best, called "neutral white",
> > which is 4000 to 4500 Kelvin. Other color temperatures are also
> > manufactured, but are used in more specialized applications.
> >
> > The other specification, often neglected, is the Color Rendering Index
> > (CRI). This is a percentual value, telling how well the spectrum from a
> > lamp matches the equivalent blackbody spectrum. Very poor fluorescent
> > lamps could be as bad as 60%, while most are better than 80%, with the
> > really good ones being above 90%. None of them can make 100%.
> >
> > Some manufacturers use a three figure code, where the first figure is
> > the tens of the CRI, and the other two are the thousands and hundreds of
> > the color temperature. For example, a high quality fluorescent lamp that
> > has a CRI of 95% and a color temperature of 4000 Kelvin, would be coded
> > "940".
> >
> > By the way, almost all of the above applies to white LEDs too. They use
> > phosphors, much the same as fluorescent lamps. Only that they are
> > excited by an ultraviolet or blue LED, instead of the ultraviolet
> > radiation from a low pressure mercury arc.
> >
> > I wish I could find 940 type CFLs locally. The ones I have at present
> > are 840 and 865. Long straight fluorescent tubes are more easily found
> > in 940 color.
> >
> > Manfred
> >
> > ========================
> > Visit my hobby homepage!
> > _http://ludens.cl_ (http://ludens.cl/)
> > ========================
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
> >
> >
>
> --
> Michel Maupoux
> Technical Director
> Green Empowerment
> www.greenempowerment.org
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>



--
Michel Maupoux
Technical Director
Green Empowerment
www.greenempowerment.org


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

#15935

From: David Murray <axes48@...>
Date: Fri Jun 15, 2012 3:52 pm
Subject: RE: Re: energy saver compaign

axes48@...

Good morning John and Group;Now that is a "rant to ride'.Thoroughly one of the
most sensible comments in ages.Additionally, where in North America is there a
production facility  to supply us with CFLs?What do you all think will happen to
the domestic plants producing incandescent bulbs after they are legislated into
oblivion?I actually do not know the answer to these questions but some of you
will.I look foreward to the groups insight  on this matter.David Murray, Eureka
Micro Hydro Devices,Mount Hope Ontario, Canada. 905-679-6948.
  To: microhydro@yahoogroups.com
From: jrkess98@...
Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2012 19:24:16 -0400
Subject: Re: [microhydro] Re: energy saver compaign


























       Rant follows:

Just to jump in here...those big, efficient tubes (AND CFLs) are fine in an

  industrial or utility setting, but can they be dimmed?  I work a bit in

the  lighting game and that is the biggest complaint about this forced

wholesale change to arc-lighting. Civilized people have (and  require) dimmable

lighting in their residences.  Do we just buy 50  spare bulbs (and extra

transformers for low-voltage) and let the next  generations fend for themselves?

Many people I know have 'stocked up' on  old E-27 (and B-22) incandescents

as they become more difficult to find, FORCED  by mindless national and

regional legislation.



I THINK I have seen dimmable fluorescents but they are highly complex,

hopelessly expensive, and they flicker.  Borderline useless.



John Kessler

Ft. Lauderdale





In a message dated 6/14/2012 5:12:04 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,

nando37@... writes:



To All:



One problem that is now appearing with the CFLs is that the  semiconductors

being used are voltage breakdown limited too close to the peak  voltage of

the AC voltage, therefore with great chances of the semiconductors  to fail

in a mode that may look like a burnout lamp.



The GRID  electrical system in a nation varies dramatically from city to

city , county  to county state to state and country to country.



The GRID system is  supposed to have equipment to keep the AC Voltage close

to the design limits,  like for the 230 Volts the maximum voltage that

should "ARRIVE" to a home  should not be more than about 1.07 % of the nominal

voltage , in this case 230  * 1.07 = 246 Volts (now the 7% variation may be

different in different places  ) .



Like in Nepal it is a 230 Volts and you can read often 260 Volts  therefore

in some of those places have autovariable transformers to keep the

incoming voltage stable --- In years past I designed several transformers and  I

remember designing one of I believe 10 KW capable of regulating from 190 to

280 Volts to put out 230 volts fixed that was varied every one hertz at the

ZERO crossing of the sine wave plus the addition of spike suppressor ( like

secondary lightning effects on the power Grid voltages ).



So a great  deal of the CFLs end of life are suicide effects due to the

power Grid  spikes.



The CFLs electronic ballasts I have designed 1) all of them are  PFC= Power

Factor Corrected 2 ) Spike protected with high power capabilities  and not

with the miniscule protectors Varistors that most CFLs ballasts may  have.



If the CFL has PFC then it is simple to protect the CFL against  those

power Spikes that may blow the CFL ballast because the input inductor  plus the

protecting circuit limit the voltage to a safe value toward the  ballast

oscillator circuits.



The SPIRAL lamps , the great majority of  them, do not have PFC and if you

find CFLs that indicate that they are PFC  that lamp should be the

preferable one to buy even if the price is much higher  .



The CFL with PFC has the highest voltage breakdown semiconductors

therefore the one with the best chances to survive long term.



The  Electronic ballasts for the long tubes are the one that most of the

time have  PFC and in this case I would buy a ballast with PFC even though

more expensive  with a lamp that may live 15 to 20,000 hours .



I build ballasts using  SCRs and made 8 feet long lamps that were placed

vertically in a room corner  for my parents house that when the sold what they

had to move to a small  apartment these lamps were the first that were sold

-- Right now one can make  one of those buying a 15 to 20 dollars

electronic ballast with PFC and an 8  feet lamp or two ( one on each corner or
even

on the ceiling properly  mounted).



Nando



----- Original Message -----

From: _bill.allen@..._ (mailto:bill.allen@...)

To: _microhydro@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:microhydro@yahoogroups.com)

Sent: Thursday, June 14, 2012 07:24

Subject: Re: [microhydro] Re:  energy saver compaign



No dimmers or ceiling fans...but lots of activity  (family of 5). Will

check house power but I'm pretty sure it's ok. Most are 23  watts for 100w

equivalent.

I may be exaggerating a little on the short life  span but I recently took

a bag of about 15 in for recycling. I have started  writing the date on each

base when I put in service. Will  see....



-----Original Message-----

From: Michel Maupoux <_michelm@..._

(mailto:michelm@...) >

Sender:  _microhydro@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:microhydro@yahoogroups.com)

Date:  Wed, 13 Jun 2012 13:41:44

To: <_microhydro@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:microhydro@yahoogroups.com) >

Reply-to:  _microhydro@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:microhydro@yahoogroups.com)

Subject:  Re: [microhydro] Re: energy saver compaign



Bill,

I bought my CFL's  at Home Depot too, but the last ones I bought were 3

years ago. Almost 100%  of light bulbs my house in Washington state are now

CFL and the oldest ones  were the earliest models on sale, 7? 10? years ago.

I've only had to change  3 in all that time.

Do you have a kid who likes to flip your switches on  and off all the time?

or a very unstable voltage from your utility? Both  would have a bad

effect on CFL's life expectancy. Also dimmers if they are  not dimmable

models. Also if installed on ceiling fans, the vibrations will  kill them.



By the way, Home Depot sells several brands, I don't  remember which one I

purchased. Probably an assortment. What I have is  usually 10-15W, sold as

"40 - 60W (incandescent) replacements"



On  Tue, Jun 12, 2012 at 3:52 PM, <_bill.allen@..._

(mailto:bill.allen@...) >  wrote:



> **

>

>

> I would 6-7 months is the life  span I have been getting from what ever

> brand CFL they sell at Home  Depot.

>

>

> -----Original Message-----

> From:  Manfred Mornhinweg <_manfred@..._ (mailto:manfred@...)

>

> Sender: _microhydro@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:microhydro@yahoogroups.com)

>  Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2012 19:21:51

> To: <_microhydro@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:microhydro@yahoogroups.com) >

>  Reply-to: _microhydro@yahoogroups.com_

(mailto:microhydro@yahoogroups.com)

>  Subject: [microhydro] Re: energy saver compaign

>

> Dear  Deepak,

>

> my reply comes a bit late because I was away from home  and internet for

> a week.

>

> > My experience is some  what bad

> > in this subject. i.e. CFL's of more than 98% brands  including 'Wipro'

> > the popular brand dosen't last for more than 6  - 7 months.

>

> Invest in lamps from better brands. Here in Chile  I can buy Philips CFLs

> at roughly 5 dollars each. They are pretty  good. Westinghouse and

> General Electric ones are cheaper, cause more  radio interference, but

> also work. Among the ones I can get here,  Philips and Westinghouse are

> both highly efficient, while General  Electric are slightly less so.

>

> Anyway, 6-7 months is a  ridiculous lifespan! Don't buy any more of those

> crap lamps. 6-7  YEARS, not months, would be the minimum acceptable

> lifespan for a CFL  used in typical home applications. Typically you can

> expect more than  that lifespan.

>

> > Also about the light spectrum

> >  emitted from CFL's is some what different as the colors look

> >  different in the light of many CFL's. Experts , please comment on

> >  this !

>

> It's true, the spectrum from CFLs is totally different  from that of glow

> bulbs or sunlight.

>

> There are two  basic types of light sources: Blackbody radiators, and

> spectral  radiators. Blackbody radiators emit a continuous spectrum, that

> has a  smooth distribution peaking on a specific wavelength, that depends

> on  the temperature of the hot body. This body is assumed to be black,

>  therefore the name. Bodies that are not black can produce a slightly

>  different spectrum, but not by very much.

>

> Glow bulb filaments  operate at temperatures between about 2200 and 2700

> Kelvin, so that's  their "color temperature", as it is called. This is an

> orange to  yellow light. The sun has a surface temperature like 6000

> Kelvin, so  that is its color temperature. But sunlight arriving on earth

> is  filtered by the atmosphere. Shorter wavelengths are scattered

>  sidewards, longer ones pass more straight. That's why the sky looks

>  blue, and the sun looks light yellow. Pure sunlight arriving on earth

>  ranges from about 4000 Kelvin at noon, to less than 2000 Kelvin during

>  a bloody red sunset. The blue sky instead is like 14,000 Kelvin. If  you

> are in the shadow, lit by blue sky, you get this very bluish  light. But

> if you get a natural mix of direct sunlight and blue sky,  you get about

> 6000 Kelvin at noon, less as the sun goes lower. On an  overcast day, the

> clouds mix the blue skylight with the yellow  sunlight, and the mix is

> again close to 6000 Kelvin at  noon.

>

> Spectral radiators instead can work cold. They work by  exciting atoms,

> and releasing energy quants (photons) as the atoms  de-excite. The

> wavelength of the light emitted depends on the exact  substance that is

> being excited. Several phosphor-based compounds are  used in fluorescent

> lights, and these several phosphors are mixed to  give some radiation in

> each of the ranges of the three basic colors,  red, green and blue, to

> which the human eye reacts. By altering the  mix of phosphors, a

> fluorescent lamp can be made to emit more or less  light of each specific

> color, and that affects its color balance.  Normally fluorescent lamps

> are also specified in color temperature,  which is in this case the

> temperature of a blackbody that would  radiate the closest possible mix

> of wavelengths. But this does not  erase the fact that fluorescent lamps

> emit only specific wavelengths,  and not a continuous spectrum.

>

> For this reason, the colors of  an object can look different, or simply

> plain wrong, under fluorescent  light, as compared to daylight or even

> glow light. If an object  contains a dye that reflects a very only a very

> specific wavelength of  green, and your fluorescent lamp emits three

> spectral lines in the  green range, but none of those falling just on the

> dye's resonance,  then you will see the object being green in daylight

> and in glow  light, but black in fluorescent light! Likewise, a violet

> object (blue  plus red) that reflects a a range of red wavelengths that

> is present  in your fluorescent mix, but a range of blue wavelengths in

> which the  lamp does not radiate, will look red instead of violet in the

> light of  that fluorescent lamp. This can be a serious problem, fro

> example for  electronicians like myself, when trying to read the

> color-coded values  of resistors! Red and orange can often look exactly

> the same in  fluorescent light, and some other light source is needed to

> read the  value.

>

> Fluorescent lamps have two important specifications for  their color. One

> is the already mentioned color temperature. The most  typical ones are

> 2700 to 3300 Kelvin, usually called "warm white",  intended to look

> almost as orange/yellow as a glow lamp; then we have  "daylight" or "cold

> white", which is typically around 6500 Kelvin, and  in between is the

> color temperature that I personally like best,  called "neutral white",

> which is 4000 to 4500 Kelvin. Other color  temperatures are also

> manufactured, but are used in more specialized  applications.

>

> The other specification, often neglected, is the  Color Rendering Index

> (CRI). This is a percentual value, telling how  well the spectrum from a

> lamp matches the equivalent blackbody  spectrum. Very poor fluorescent

> lamps could be as bad as 60%, while  most are better than 80%, with the

> really good ones being above 90%.  None of them can make 100%.

>

> Some manufacturers use a three  figure code, where the first figure is

> the tens of the CRI, and the  other two are the thousands and hundreds of

> the color temperature. For  example, a high quality fluorescent lamp that

> has a CRI of 95% and a  color temperature of 4000 Kelvin, would be coded

>  "940".

>

> By the way, almost all of the above applies to white  LEDs too. They use

> phosphors, much the same as fluorescent lamps. Only  that they are

> excited by an ultraviolet or blue LED, instead of the  ultraviolet

> radiation from a low pressure mercury arc.

>

>  I wish I could find 940 type CFLs locally. The ones I have at present

>  are 840 and 865. Long straight fluorescent tubes are more easily found

>  in 940 color.

>

> Manfred

>

>  ========================

> Visit my hobby homepage!

> _http://ludens.cl_ (http://ludens.cl/)

>  ========================

>

> [Non-text portions of this message  have been removed]

>

>

>



--

Michel  Maupoux

Technical Director

Green  Empowerment

www.greenempowerment.org



[Non-text portions of this  message have been removed]



[Non-text portions of this message have been  removed]



[Non-text portions of this message have been  removed]



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


















[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

#15936

From: Conrad Wood <ranhudro@...>
Date: Fri Jun 15, 2012 4:47 pm
Subject: Re: Re: energy saver compaign

ranhudro

Hello to everyone,
My 2 cent comment:
I have been following the development of energy efficient lighting for a few
years as it
certainly makes good sense from a micro-hydro viewpoint. The most glaring fact
I've
noticed is that all products seem to follow the central lighting theme
established by the
incandescent bulb. LED manufacturers are having a hard time equalling a 100 watt
bulb
without great expense. Festive LED lighting businesses such as Minleon
International
have been marketing .5 watt and 1 watt bulbs in many shapes and sizes for a very
reasonable
price. If we rethink the manner in which we light our homes and property these
work very well.
A simple panel type fixture could be made that used multiple 1 watt LED's with
circuit switching
to control the amount of bulbs that are on at the users discretion. example:
1-99 !
I welcome your comments to this thought.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

#15937

From: David Murray <axes48@...>
Date: Fri Jun 15, 2012 9:50 pm
Subject: RE: Re: energy saver compaign

axes48@...

Good afternoon Group:Is anyone in North America going to be producing light
bulbs?Think about the "Dark Side ",. This could be a problem.David Murray,
Eureka Micro Hydro Devices, Mount Hope  Ontario, Canada.905-679-6948.
  To: microhydro@yahoogroups.com
From: nando37@...
Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2012 09:48:55 -0500
Subject: Re: [microhydro] Re: energy saver compaign


























       Ranting following the Rant:



Dimmable CFLS indeed do have a complex circuitry because the CFL has a discharge
principle where the tube it is energized and the tube innards gases have to be
into conduction generating a low impedance path inside the tube and at the same
time the generated plasma has to "activate" the phosphors covering the internal
walls of the tube.



The plasma energy level needs to have certain minimum level to "make" the
phosphors to emit their activated light photons.



Dimmable CFLs have limited range of operation and this range has to go along
with the human eyes capabilities and the effects of the light energy pulsing
that may affect the human cerebral own " Lithium" operated "computer" that is
extremely sensitive to the light energy levels and colors and as well the
possibility of the light pulsing at rates that may affect the human "computer".



LEDs due to their fast switching capabilities are logically better for variable
light level control that do not affect the human " computer" basic sensor = the
eyes , with the light level pulsing that are integrated to give the sensation of
being having a much lower level light source and often not affecting the brain
basic operating status.



Dimmable LEDs need to be pulsed to avoid light emitted Kelvin temperature
variations that can be noticed if the LEDs have a DC current that is linearly
variable, this for the same reasons that the fluorescent lamps have, the energy
level needed to excite the phosphors to produce their Kelvin temperature levels.



The government decision of stopping the production of the resistive incandescent
lamps was not well explained and defined for the general population to
understand the reasons for such conversion.



I did not paid  enough attention to such decision that may have started long ago
though there are reasons to have the availability of the resistive incandescent
lamps available and one of them is that there is a certain % of the population
that are highly more sensitive to the high frequency light pulses of the
fluorescent lamps.



Resistive Incandescent have a light intensity that varies with the frequency of
the energy applied to it , though the % of the light level is basically low
enough that does not affect the great majority of the people.



Nando



----- Original Message -----

   From: jrkess98@...

   To: microhydro@yahoogroups.com

   Sent: Thursday, June 14, 2012 18:24

   Subject: Re: [microhydro] Re: energy saver compaign



Rant follows:

   Just to jump in here...those big, efficient tubes (AND CFLs) are fine in an

   industrial or utility setting, but can they be dimmed? I work a bit in

   the lighting game and that is the biggest complaint about this forced

   wholesale change to arc-lighting. Civilized people have (and require) dimmable

   lighting in their residences. Do we just buy 50 spare bulbs (and extra

   transformers for low-voltage) and let the next generations fend for
themselves?

   Many people I know have 'stocked up' on old E-27 (and B-22) incandescents

   as they become more difficult to find, FORCED by mindless national and

   regional legislation.



I THINK I have seen dimmable fluorescents but they are highly complex,

   hopelessly expensive, and they flicker. Borderline useless.



John Kessler

   Ft. Lauderdale



In a message dated 6/14/2012 5:12:04 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,

   nando37@... writes:



To All:



One problem that is now appearing with the CFLs is that the semiconductors

   being used are voltage breakdown limited too close to the peak voltage of

   the AC voltage, therefore with great chances of the semiconductors to fail

   in a mode that may look like a burnout lamp.



The GRID electrical system in a nation varies dramatically from city to

   city , county to county state to state and country to country.



The GRID system is supposed to have equipment to keep the AC Voltage close

   to the design limits, like for the 230 Volts the maximum voltage that

   should "ARRIVE" to a home should not be more than about 1.07 % of the nominal

   voltage , in this case 230 * 1.07 = 246 Volts (now the 7% variation may be

   different in different places ) .



Like in Nepal it is a 230 Volts and you can read often 260 Volts therefore

   in some of those places have autovariable transformers to keep the

   incoming voltage stable --- In years past I designed several transformers and
I

   remember designing one of I believe 10 KW capable of regulating from 190 to

   280 Volts to put out 230 volts fixed that was varied every one hertz at the

   ZERO crossing of the sine wave plus the addition of spike suppressor ( like

   secondary lightning effects on the power Grid voltages ).



So a great deal of the CFLs end of life are suicide effects due to the

   power Grid spikes.



The CFLs electronic ballasts I have designed 1) all of them are PFC= Power

   Factor Corrected 2 ) Spike protected with high power capabilities and not

   with the miniscule protectors Varistors that most CFLs ballasts may have.



If the CFL has PFC then it is simple to protect the CFL against those

   power Spikes that may blow the CFL ballast because the input inductor plus the

   protecting circuit limit the voltage to a safe value toward the ballast

   oscillator circuits.



The SPIRAL lamps , the great majority of them, do not have PFC and if you

   find CFLs that indicate that they are PFC that lamp should be the

   preferable one to buy even if the price is much higher .



The CFL with PFC has the highest voltage breakdown semiconductors

   therefore the one with the best chances to survive long term.



The Electronic ballasts for the long tubes are the one that most of the

   time have PFC and in this case I would buy a ballast with PFC even though

   more expensive with a lamp that may live 15 to 20,000 hours .



I build ballasts using SCRs and made 8 feet long lamps that were placed

   vertically in a room corner for my parents house that when the sold what they

   had to move to a small apartment these lamps were the first that were sold

   -- Right now one can make one of those buying a 15 to 20 dollars

   electronic ballast with PFC and an 8 feet lamp or two ( one on each corner or
even

   on the ceiling properly mounted).



Nando



----- Original Message -----

   From: _bill.allen@..._ (mailto:bill.allen@...)

   To: _microhydro@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:microhydro@yahoogroups.com)

   Sent: Thursday, June 14, 2012 07:24

   Subject: Re: [microhydro] Re: energy saver compaign



No dimmers or ceiling fans...but lots of activity (family of 5). Will

   check house power but I'm pretty sure it's ok. Most are 23 watts for 100w

   equivalent.

   I may be exaggerating a little on the short life span but I recently took

   a bag of about 15 in for recycling. I have started writing the date on each

   base when I put in service. Will see....



-----Original Message-----

   From: Michel Maupoux <_michelm@..._

   (mailto:michelm@...) >

   Sender: _microhydro@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:microhydro@yahoogroups.com)

   Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2012 13:41:44

   To: <_microhydro@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:microhydro@yahoogroups.com) >

   Reply-to: _microhydro@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:microhydro@yahoogroups.com)

   Subject: Re: [microhydro] Re: energy saver compaign



Bill,

   I bought my CFL's at Home Depot too, but the last ones I bought were 3

   years ago. Almost 100% of light bulbs my house in Washington state are now

   CFL and the oldest ones were the earliest models on sale, 7? 10? years ago.

   I've only had to change 3 in all that time.

   Do you have a kid who likes to flip your switches on and off all the time?

   or a very unstable voltage from your utility? Both would have a bad

   effect on CFL's life expectancy. Also dimmers if they are not dimmable

   models. Also if installed on ceiling fans, the vibrations will kill them.



By the way, Home Depot sells several brands, I don't remember which one I

   purchased. Probably an assortment. What I have is usually 10-15W, sold as

   "40 - 60W (incandescent) replacements"



On Tue, Jun 12, 2012 at 3:52 PM, <_bill.allen@..._

   (mailto:bill.allen@...) > wrote:



> **

   >

   >

   > I would 6-7 months is the life span I have been getting from what ever

   > brand CFL they sell at Home Depot.

   >

   >

   > -----Original Message-----

   > From: Manfred Mornhinweg <_manfred@..._ (mailto:manfred@...)

   >

   > Sender: _microhydro@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:microhydro@yahoogroups.com)

   > Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2012 19:21:51

   > To: <_microhydro@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:microhydro@yahoogroups.com) >

   > Reply-to: _microhydro@yahoogroups.com_

   (mailto:microhydro@yahoogroups.com)

   > Subject: [microhydro] Re: energy saver compaign

   >

   > Dear Deepak,

   >

   > my reply comes a bit late because I was away from home and internet for

   > a week.

   >

   > > My experience is some what bad

   > > in this subject. i.e. CFL's of more than 98% brands including 'Wipro'

   > > the popular brand dosen't last for more than 6 - 7 months.

   >

   > Invest in lamps from better brands. Here in Chile I can buy Philips CFLs

   > at roughly 5 dollars each. They are pretty good. Westinghouse and

   > General Electric ones are cheaper, cause more radio interference, but

   > also work. Among the ones I can get here, Philips and Westinghouse are

   > both highly efficient, while General Electric are slightly less so.

   >

   > Anyway, 6-7 months is a ridiculous lifespan! Don't buy any more of those

   > crap lamps. 6-7 YEARS, not months, would be the minimum acceptable

   > lifespan for a CFL used in typical home applications. Typically you can

   > expect more than that lifespan.

   >

   > > Also about the light spectrum

   > > emitted from CFL's is some what different as the colors look

   > > different in the light of many CFL's. Experts , please comment on

   > > this !

   >

   > It's true, the spectrum from CFLs is totally different from that of glow

   > bulbs or sunlight.

   >

   > There are two basic types of light sources: Blackbody radiators, and

   > spectral radiators. Blackbody radiators emit a continuous spectrum, that

   > has a smooth distribution peaking on a specific wavelength, that depends

   > on the temperature of the hot body. This body is assumed to be black,

   > therefore the name. Bodies that are not black can produce a slightly

   > different spectrum, but not by very much.

   >

   > Glow bulb filaments operate at temperatures between about 2200 and 2700

   > Kelvin, so that's their "color temperature", as it is called. This is an

   > orange to yellow light. The sun has a surface temperature like 6000

   > Kelvin, so that is its color temperature. But sunlight arriving on earth

   > is filtered by the atmosphere. Shorter wavelengths are scattered

   > sidewards, longer ones pass more straight. That's why the sky looks

   > blue, and the sun looks light yellow. Pure sunlight arriving on earth

   > ranges from about 4000 Kelvin at noon, to less than 2000 Kelvin during

   > a bloody red sunset. The blue sky instead is like 14,000 Kelvin. If you

   > are in the shadow, lit by blue sky, you get this very bluish light. But

   > if you get a natural mix of direct sunlight and blue sky, you get about

   > 6000 Kelvin at noon, less as the sun goes lower. On an overcast day, the

   > clouds mix the blue skylight with the yellow sunlight, and the mix is

   > again close to 6000 Kelvin at noon.

   >

   > Spectral radiators instead can work cold. They work by exciting atoms,

   > and releasing energy quants (photons) as the atoms de-excite. The

   > wavelength of the light emitted depends on the exact substance that is

   > being excited. Several phosphor-based compounds are used in fluorescent

   > lights, and these several phosphors are mixed to give some radiation in

   > each of the ranges of the three basic colors, red, green and blue, to

   > which the human eye reacts. By altering the mix of phosphors, a

   > fluorescent lamp can be made to emit more or less light of each specific

   > color, and that affects its color balance. Normally fluorescent lamps

   > are also specified in color temperature, which is in this case the

   > temperature of a blackbody that would radiate the closest possible mix

   > of wavelengths. But this does not erase the fact that fluorescent lamps

   > emit only specific wavelengths, and not a continuous spectrum.

   >

   > For this reason, the colors of an object can look different, or simply

   > plain wrong, under fluorescent light, as compared to daylight or even

   > glow light. If an object contains a dye that reflects a very only a very

   > specific wavelength of green, and your fluorescent lamp emits three

   > spectral lines in the green range, but none of those falling just on the

   > dye's resonance, then you will see the object being green in daylight

   > and in glow light, but black in fluorescent light! Likewise, a violet

   > object (blue plus red) that reflects a a range of red wavelengths that

   > is present in your fluorescent mix, but a range of blue wavelengths in

   > which the lamp does not radiate, will look red instead of violet in the

   > light of that fluorescent lamp. This can be a serious problem, fro

   > example for electronicians like myself, when trying to read the

   > color-coded values of resistors! Red and orange can often look exactly

   > the same in fluorescent light, and some other light source is needed to

   > read the value.

   >

   > Fluorescent lamps have two important specifications for their color. One

   > is the already mentioned color temperature. The most typical ones are

   > 2700 to 3300 Kelvin, usually called "warm white", intended to look

   > almost as orange/yellow as a glow lamp; then we have "daylight" or "cold

   > white", which is typically around 6500 Kelvin, and in between is the

   > color temperature that I personally like best, called "neutral white",

   > which is 4000 to 4500 Kelvin. Other color temperatures are also

   > manufactured, but are used in more specialized applications.

   >

   > The other specification, often neglected, is the Color Rendering Index

   > (CRI). This is a percentual value, telling how well the spectrum from a

   > lamp matches the equivalent blackbody spectrum. Very poor fluorescent

   > lamps could be as bad as 60%, while most are better than 80%, with the

   > really good ones being above 90%. None of them can make 100%.

   >

   > Some manufacturers use a three figure code, where the first figure is

   > the tens of the CRI, and the other two are the thousands and hundreds of

   > the color temperature. For example, a high quality fluorescent lamp that

   > has a CRI of 95% and a color temperature of 4000 Kelvin, would be coded

   > "940".

   >

   > By the way, almost all of the above applies to white LEDs too. They use

   > phosphors, much the same as fluorescent lamps. Only that they are

   > excited by an ultraviolet or blue LED, instead of the ultraviolet

   > radiation from a low pressure mercury arc.

   >

   > I wish I could find 940 type CFLs locally. The ones I have at present

   > are 840 and 865. Long straight fluorescent tubes are more easily found

   > in 940 color.

   >

   > Manfred

   >

   > ========================

   > Visit my hobby homepage!

   > _http://ludens.cl_ (http://ludens.cl/)

   > ========================

   >

   > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

   >

   >

   >



--

   Michel Maupoux

   Technical Director

   Green Empowerment

   www.greenempowerment.org



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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#15938

From: Kerry Clapham <kerryclapham17@...>
Date: Sat Jun 16, 2012 12:58 am
Subject: Re: Utilizing Wastewater for power

kerryclapham17

Hi Bob
I'm Currently building a Banki (cross flow) turbine, which will power 2x Smart
drives, my site has 60m head (196ft) with a flow of 4 liters per second, in
a alpine environment. So I understand your problem of where do I start??? I'm
currently near the end of my design prosses now, im just working through the
last few things now with the banki turbine(if any one knows of a really good
banki turbine calculation sheet that only requires the head & flow, it would
be very helpful), then i can begin to build :) (at last). Back to you I would
have a look at how much power you can generate first, to do this have a look
at this spread sheet I created for working out the potential power:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AqjBmR66CSYAdFBoc0dCZl9vR29pTktSdWd\
uX0w1WkE
If you are interested in banki turbines ive got what feels like hundreds of
links that may help - just give me a yell and i'll see what i can do - but it
sounds like you are in pelton/turgo country with 180m of head. I'm not sure
how accurate this chart is, but it may be worth while having a look at it (i
found it while doing my research):
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/bf/Water_Turbine_Chart.png

 As far as generator(s) go I'm using smart drives as there is an (almost)
unlimited supply of them at rubbish dumps here in New Zealand, there is a few
tricks ive learnt about them once again give me a yell if you need some info.
It sounds like you have enormous potential with 180m of head so good luck,
I'll be interested to hear how you get on.

Hope this helps
Kerry


________________________________
  From: "rkweir@..." <rkweir@...>
To: microhydro@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Saturday, 16 June 2012 3:18 AM
Subject: [microhydro] Utilizing Wastewater for power


 
Hey guys and Ladies,
I have a friend that is inquiring about generating power using
wastewater that will be fed to a terminal treatment plant on the coast. We don't
know the exact flows yet but we do know that there is approximately 600  feet
of head over the plant. This said is there anyone that has ventured into
such a project? Being a screen guy I think that I can take out everything that
would interfere with a turbine, but it will be a challenge. I look forward
to  any feedback that can be provided. Thanks in advance.

Bob

Robert K.  Weir P.E.
Hydroscreen CO. LLC
303-333-6071
Fax 303-393-8298
e-mail rkweir@...
_www.hydroscreen.com_ (http://www.hydroscreen.com/)

"We don't  just sell screens, we engineer solutions"

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

#15939

From: "steve gregory" <sdgregory@...>
Date: Sat Jun 16, 2012 1:19 am
Subject: RE: Utilizing Wastewater for power

sdgregory@...

Hey Bob

In general terms this has been done before. Do some research on google for
water plants incorporating turbines - I believe this has been going on in
Europe for some time now.especially with any sort of head like that - it
helps to offset some of the pumping losses

That being said the first thing to do is to reduce the flow rates in the
channels

steve



From: microhydro@yahoogroups.com [mailto:microhydro@yahoogroups.com] On
Behalf Of rkweir@...
Sent: June-15-12 11:18 AM
To: microhydro@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [microhydro] Utilizing Wastewater for power





Hey guys and Ladies,
I have a friend that is inquiring about generating power using
wastewater that will be fed to a terminal treatment plant on the coast. We
don't
know the exact flows yet but we do know that there is approximately 600 feet

of head over the plant. This said is there anyone that has ventured into
such a project? Being a screen guy I think that I can take out everything
that
would interfere with a turbine, but it will be a challenge. I look forward
to any feedback that can be provided. Thanks in advance.

Bob

Robert K. Weir P.E.
Hydroscreen CO. LLC
303-333-6071
Fax 303-393-8298
e-mail rkweir@... <mailto:rkweir%40aol.com>
_www.hydroscreen.com_ (http://www.hydroscreen.com/)

"We don't just sell screens, we engineer solutions"

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

#15940

From: Robert Maginnis <bobmagi@...>
Date: Sat Jun 16, 2012 4:07 am
Subject: RE: Re: energy saver compaign

bobmagi@att.net

To John who wrote:
�
"...Many people I know have 'stocked up' on old E-27 (and B-22) incandescents

as they become more difficult to find, FORCED by mindless national and

regional legislation."
�
John, the legislation that required incandescent�bulbs to be 30% more efficient
didn't ban the bulbs, the new ones�just�use an inner tube of quartz with a
halogen (iodine) that allows the tungsten to burn brighter without burning out
faster.� These modern incandescents cost a little more, but pay off in reduced
power consumption for a savings over their lifetime.
�
bob


--- On Fri, 6/15/12, David Murray <axes48@...> wrote:


From: David Murray <axes48@...>
Subject: RE: [microhydro] Re: energy saver compaign
To: microhydro@yahoogroups.com
Date: Friday, June 15, 2012, 8:52 AM



�




Good morning John and Group;Now that is a "rant to ride'.Thoroughly one of the
most sensible comments in ages.Additionally, where in North America is there a
production facility to supply us with CFLs?What do you all think will happen to
the domestic plants producing incandescent bulbs after they are legislated into
oblivion?I actually do not know the answer to these questions but some of you
will.I look foreward to the groups insight on this matter.David Murray, Eureka
Micro Hydro Devices,Mount Hope Ontario, Canada. 905-679-6948.
To: microhydro@yahoogroups.com
From: jrkess98@...
Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2012 19:24:16 -0400
Subject: Re: [microhydro] Re: energy saver compaign

Rant follows:

Just to jump in here...those big, efficient tubes (AND CFLs) are fine in an

industrial or utility setting, but can they be dimmed? I work a bit in

the lighting game and that is the biggest complaint about this forced

wholesale change to arc-lighting. Civilized people have (and require) dimmable

lighting in their residences. Do we just buy 50 spare bulbs (and extra

transformers for low-voltage) and let the next generations fend for themselves?

Many people I know have 'stocked up' on old E-27 (and B-22) incandescents

as they become more difficult to find, FORCED by mindless national and

regional legislation.

I THINK I have seen dimmable fluorescents but they are highly complex,

hopelessly expensive, and they flicker. Borderline useless.

John Kessler

Ft. Lauderdale

In a message dated 6/14/2012 5:12:04 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,

nando37@... writes:

To All:

One problem that is now appearing with the CFLs is that the semiconductors

being used are voltage breakdown limited too close to the peak voltage of

the AC voltage, therefore with great chances of the semiconductors to fail

in a mode that may look like a burnout lamp.

The GRID electrical system in a nation varies dramatically from city to

city , county to county state to state and country to country.

The GRID system is supposed to have equipment to keep the AC Voltage close

to the design limits, like for the 230 Volts the maximum voltage that

should "ARRIVE" to a home should not be more than about 1.07 % of the nominal

voltage , in this case 230 * 1.07 = 246 Volts (now the 7% variation may be

different in different places ) .

Like in Nepal it is a 230 Volts and you can read often 260 Volts therefore

in some of those places have autovariable transformers to keep the

incoming voltage stable --- In years past I designed several transformers and I

remember designing one of I believe 10 KW capable of regulating from 190 to

280 Volts to put out 230 volts fixed that was varied every one hertz at the

ZERO crossing of the sine wave plus the addition of spike suppressor ( like

secondary lightning effects on the power Grid voltages ).

So a great deal of the CFLs end of life are suicide effects due to the

power Grid spikes.

The CFLs electronic ballasts I have designed 1) all of them are PFC= Power

Factor Corrected 2 ) Spike protected with high power capabilities and not

with the miniscule protectors Varistors that most CFLs ballasts may have.

If the CFL has PFC then it is simple to protect the CFL against those

power Spikes that may blow the CFL ballast because the input inductor plus the

protecting circuit limit the voltage to a safe value toward the ballast

oscillator circuits.

The SPIRAL lamps , the great majority of them, do not have PFC and if you

find CFLs that indicate that they are PFC that lamp should be the

preferable one to buy even if the price is much higher .

The CFL with PFC has the highest voltage breakdown semiconductors

therefore the one with the best chances to survive long term.

The Electronic ballasts for the long tubes are the one that most of the

time have PFC and in this case I would buy a ballast with PFC even though

more expensive with a lamp that may live 15 to 20,000 hours .

I build ballasts using SCRs and made 8 feet long lamps that were placed

vertically in a room corner for my parents house that when the sold what they

had to move to a small apartment these lamps were the first that were sold

-- Right now one can make one of those buying a 15 to 20 dollars

electronic ballast with PFC and an 8 feet lamp or two ( one on each corner or
even

on the ceiling properly mounted).

Nando

----- Original Message -----

From: _bill.allen@..._ (mailto:bill.allen@...)

To: _microhydro@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:microhydro@yahoogroups.com)

Sent: Thursday, June 14, 2012 07:24

Subject: Re: [microhydro] Re: energy saver compaign

No dimmers or ceiling fans...but lots of activity (family of 5). Will

check house power but I'm pretty sure it's ok. Most are 23 watts for 100w

equivalent.

I may be exaggerating a little on the short life span but I recently took

a bag of about 15 in for recycling. I have started writing the date on each

base when I put in service. Will see....

-----

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

#15941

From: jrkess98@...
Date: Sun Jun 17, 2012 2:02 am
Subject: Re: Re: energy saver compaign

jkftl

Bonjour Michel:
En Anglais, SVP, pour les autres...
I reside in France about half the time and, I grant, don't see too many
houses with light dimmers (but then, Europeans are generally more austere than
  Americans).  I have about 4 controlled circuits in my house there  and a
few more here in Florida.  It is very nice to adjust light  levels for
safety, effect, and economy.

The big user overall is commercial lighting.  Every restaurant and
entertainment facility uses dimmers extensively, varying light level depending 
on
time of day or activity.  We, the customers, see the effects at every  visit
or facility use.  I wonder how commercial light designers and  technicians
will deal with ongoing mandates to change from incandescent.   The
technology is just not there.  Must we throw thousands of dollars at a  simple
room
light?
John Kessler
Ft. Lauderdale



In a message dated 6/15/2012 5:35:36 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
michelm@... writes:




John,
"civilized people have dimmable"? I grew up in Europe and never  saw one
(I'm 60).
Been in the US for 27 years, and the only time we used  a dimmable was when
we had babies, to have very low amount of light in  their room when we had
to get up in the middle of the night. A "night  light" would have done the
same job.
I work in villages in various  developing countries where people are happy
to get electric lights for the  first time, and they use only 1 or 2 light
bulbs at any time. No need for  dimming either.

The only reason to have a dimmable would be if your  light is too strong to
begin with. Why not just limit the number of light  bulbs you use in the
first place?

On Thu, Jun 14, 2012 at 4:24 PM,  <_jrkess98@..._
(mailto:jrkess98@...) > wrote:

>  **
>
>
> Rant follows:
> Just to jump in here...those  big, efficient tubes (AND CFLs) are fine in
> an
> industrial or  utility setting, but can they be dimmed? I work a bit in
> the lighting  game and that is the biggest complaint about this forced
> wholesale  change to arc-lighting. Civilized people have (and require)
>  dimmable
> lighting in their residences. Do we just buy 50 spare bulbs  (and extra
> transformers for low-voltage) and let the next generations  fend for
> themselves?
> Many people I know have 'stocked up' on  old E-27 (and B-22) incandescents
> as they become more difficult to  find, FORCED by mindless national and
> regional  legislation.
>
> I THINK I have seen dimmable fluorescents but  they are highly complex,
> hopelessly expensive, and they flicker.  Borderline useless.
>
> John Kessler
> Ft.  Lauderdale
>
>
> In a message dated 6/14/2012 5:12:04 P.M.  Eastern Daylight Time,
> _nando37@..._ (mailto:nando37@...)   writes:
>
> To All:
>
> One problem that is now  appearing with the CFLs is that the
semiconductors
> being used are  voltage breakdown limited too close to the peak voltage of
> the AC  voltage, therefore with great chances of the semiconductors to
fail
> in  a mode that may look like a burnout lamp.
>
> The GRID electrical  system in a nation varies dramatically from city to
> city , county to  county state to state and country to country.
>
> The GRID system  is supposed to have equipment to keep the AC Voltage
close
> to the  design limits, like for the 230 Volts the maximum voltage that
> should  "ARRIVE" to a home should not be more than about 1.07 % of the
>  nominal
> voltage , in this case 230 * 1.07 = 246 Volts (now the 7%  variation may
be
> different in different places ) .
>
>  Like in Nepal it is a 230 Volts and you can read often 260 Volts
therefore
> in some of those places have autovariable transformers to  keep the
> incoming voltage stable --- In years past I designed several  transformers
> and I
> remember designing one of I believe 10 KW  capable of regulating from 190
> to
> 280 Volts to put out 230  volts fixed that was varied every one hertz at
> the
> ZERO  crossing of the sine wave plus the addition of spike suppressor (
>  like
> secondary lightning effects on the power Grid voltages  ).
>
> So a great deal of the CFLs end of life are suicide effects  due to the
> power Grid spikes.
>
> The CFLs electronic  ballasts I have designed 1) all of them are PFC=
Power
> Factor  Corrected 2 ) Spike protected with high power capabilities and not
>  with the miniscule protectors Varistors that most CFLs ballasts may
have.
>
> If the CFL has PFC then it is simple to protect the CFL  against those
> power Spikes that may blow the CFL ballast because the  input inductor
plus
> the
> protecting circuit limit the voltage  to a safe value toward the ballast
> oscillator  circuits.
>
> The SPIRAL lamps , the great majority of them, do  not have PFC and if you
> find CFLs that indicate that they are PFC that  lamp should be the
> preferable one to buy even if the price is much  higher .
>
> The CFL with PFC has the highest voltage breakdown  semiconductors
> therefore the one with the best chances to survive long  term.
>
> The Electronic ballasts for the long tubes are the one  that most of the
> time have PFC and in this case I would buy a ballast  with PFC even though
> more expensive with a lamp that may live 15 to  20,000 hours .
>
> I build ballasts using SCRs and made 8 feet  long lamps that were placed
> vertically in a room corner for my parents  house that when the sold what
> they
> had to move to a small  apartment these lamps were the first that were
sold
> -- Right now one  can make one of those buying a 15 to 20 dollars
> electronic ballast  with PFC and an 8 feet lamp or two ( one on each
corner
> or  even
> on the ceiling properly mounted).
>
>  Nando
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: __bill.allen@..._ (mailto:_bill.allen@...) _
(mailto:_bill.allen@..._ (mailto:bill.allen@...) )
> To:  __microhydro@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:_microhydro@yahoogroups.com) _
  (mailto:_microhydro@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:microhydro@yahoogroups.com) )
>  Sent: Thursday, June 14, 2012 07:24
> Subject: Re: [microhydro] Re:  energy saver compaign
>
> No dimmers or ceiling fans...but lots of  activity (family of 5). Will
> check house power but I'm pretty sure  it's ok. Most are 23 watts for 100w
> equivalent.
> I may be  exaggerating a little on the short life span but I recently took
> a bag  of about 15 in for recycling. I have started writing the date on
>  each
> base when I put in service. Will see....
>
>  -----Original Message-----
> From: Michel Maupoux <__michelm@..._
(mailto:_michelm@...) _
>  (mailto:_michelm@..._
(mailto:michelm@...) )  >
> Sender: __microhydro@yahoogroups.com_
(mailto:_microhydro@yahoogroups.com) _  (mailto:_microhydro@yahoogroups.com_
(mailto:microhydro@yahoogroups.com) )
>  Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2012 13:41:44
> To: <__microhydro@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:_microhydro@yahoogroups.com) _
  (mailto:_microhydro@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:microhydro@yahoogroups.com) )
  >
> Reply-to: __microhydro@yahoogroups.com_
(mailto:_microhydro@yahoogroups.com) _  (mailto:_microhydro@yahoogroups.com_
(mailto:microhydro@yahoogroups.com) )
>
>  Subject: Re: [microhydro] Re: energy saver compaign
>
>  Bill,
> I bought my CFL's at Home Depot too, but the last ones I bought  were 3
> years ago. Almost 100% of light bulbs my house in Washington  state are
now
> CFL and the oldest ones were the earliest models on  sale, 7? 10? years
ago.
> I've only had to change 3 in all that  time.
> Do you have a kid who likes to flip your switches on and off all  the
time?
> or a very unstable voltage from your utility? Both would  have a bad
> effect on CFL's life expectancy. Also dimmers if they are  not dimmable
> models. Also if installed on ceiling fans, the vibrations  will kill them.
>
> By the way, Home Depot sells several brands, I  don't remember which one I
> purchased. Probably an assortment. What I  have is usually 10-15W, sold as
> "40 - 60W (incandescent)  replacements"
>
> On Tue, Jun 12, 2012 at 3:52 PM, <__bill.allen@..._
(mailto:_bill.allen@...) _
>  (mailto:_bill.allen@..._ (mailto:bill.allen@...) ) >
wrote:
>
> > **
> >
> >
> > I would  6-7 months is the life span I have been getting from what ever
> >  brand CFL they sell at Home Depot.
> >
> >
> >  -----Original Message-----
> > From: Manfred Mornhinweg <__manfred@..._
(mailto:_manfred@...) _ (mailto:_manfred@..._
(mailto:manfred@...) )
>
>  >
> > Sender: __microhydro@yahoogroups.com_
(mailto:_microhydro@yahoogroups.com) _  (mailto:_microhydro@yahoogroups.com_
(mailto:microhydro@yahoogroups.com) )
>
>  > Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2012 19:21:51
> > To: <__microhydro@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:_microhydro@yahoogroups.com)
_  (mailto:_microhydro@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:microhydro@yahoogroups.com)
)  >
> > Reply-to: __microhydro@yahoogroups.com_
(mailto:_microhydro@yahoogroups.com) _
>  (mailto:_microhydro@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:microhydro@yahoogroups.com)
)
>  > Subject: [microhydro] Re: energy saver compaign
> >
> >  Dear Deepak,
> >
> > my reply comes a bit late because I was  away from home and internet for
> > a week.
> >
> >  > My experience is some what bad
> > > in this subject. i.e.  CFL's of more than 98% brands including 'Wipro'
> > > the popular  brand dosen't last for more than 6 - 7 months.
> >
> >  Invest in lamps from better brands. Here in Chile I can buy Philips
CFLs
> > at roughly 5 dollars each. They are pretty good.  Westinghouse and
> > General Electric ones are cheaper, cause more  radio interference, but
> > also work. Among the ones I can get here,  Philips and Westinghouse are
> > both highly efficient, while General  Electric are slightly less so.
> >
> > Anyway, 6-7 months is  a ridiculous lifespan! Don't buy any more of
those
> > crap lamps.  6-7 YEARS, not months, would be the minimum acceptable
> > lifespan  for a CFL used in typical home applications. Typically you can
> >  expect more than that lifespan.
> >
> > > Also about the  light spectrum
> > > emitted from CFL's is some what different as  the colors look
> > > different in the light of many CFL's.  Experts , please comment on
> > > this !
> >
> >  It's true, the spectrum from CFLs is totally different from that of
glow
> > bulbs or sunlight.
> >
> > There are two  basic types of light sources: Blackbody radiators, and
> > spectral  radiators. Blackbody radiators emit a continuous spectrum,
that
> >  has a smooth distribution peaking on a specific wavelength, that
depends
> > on the temperature of the hot body. This body is assumed  to be black,
> > therefore the name. Bodies that are not black can  produce a slightly
> > different spectrum, but not by very  much.
> >
> > Glow bulb filaments operate at temperatures  between about 2200 and 2700
> > Kelvin, so that's their "color  temperature", as it is called. This is
an
> > orange to yellow light.  The sun has a surface temperature like 6000
> > Kelvin, so that is  its color temperature. But sunlight arriving on
earth
> > is filtered  by the atmosphere. Shorter wavelengths are scattered
> > sidewards,  longer ones pass more straight. That's why the sky looks
> > blue,  and the sun looks light yellow. Pure sunlight arriving on earth
> >  ranges from about 4000 Kelvin at noon, to less than 2000 Kelvin during
>  > a bloody red sunset. The blue sky instead is like 14,000 Kelvin. If
you
> > are in the shadow, lit by blue sky, you get this very bluish  light. But
> > if you get a natural mix of direct sunlight and blue  sky, you get about
> > 6000 Kelvin at noon, less as the sun goes  lower. On an overcast day,
the
> > clouds mix the blue skylight with  the yellow sunlight, and the mix is
> > again close to 6000 Kelvin at  noon.
> >
> > Spectral radiators instead can work cold. They  work by exciting atoms,
> > and releasing energy quants (photons) as  the atoms de-excite. The
> > wavelength of the light emitted depends  on the exact substance that is
> > being excited. Several   phosphor-based compounds are used in
fluorescent
> > lights, and  these several phosphors are mixed to give some radiation in
> > each  of the ranges of the three basic colors, red, green and blue, to
> >  which the human eye reacts. By altering the mix of phosphors, a
> >  fluorescent lamp can be made to emit more or less light of each
specific
> > color, and that affects its color balance. Normally  fluorescent lamps
> > are also specified in color temperature, which  is in this case the
> > temperature of a blackbody that would radiate  the closest possible mix
> > of wavelengths. But this does not erase  the fact that fluorescent lamps
> > emit only specific wavelengths,  and not a continuous spectrum.
> >
> > For this reason, the  colors of an object can look different, or simply
> > plain wrong,  under fluorescent light, as compared to daylight or even
> > glow  light. If an object contains a dye that reflects a very only a
very
>  > specific wavelength of green, and your fluorescent lamp emits  three
> > spectral lines in the green range, but none of those  falling just on
the
> > dye's resonance, then you will see the object  being green in daylight
> > and in glow light, but black in  fluorescent light! Likewise, a violet
> > object (blue plus red) that  reflects a a range of red wavelengths that
> > is present in your  fluorescent mix, but a range of blue wavelengths in
> > which the  lamp does not radiate, will look red instead of violet in the
> >  light of that fluorescent lamp. This can be a serious problem, fro
>  > example for electronicians like myself, when trying to read the
>  > color-coded values of resistors! Red and orange can often look  exactly
> > the same in fluorescent light, and some other light  source is needed to
> > read the value.
> >
> >  Fluorescent lamps have two important specifications for their color.
One
> > is the already mentioned color temperature. The most typical  ones are
> > 2700 to 3300 Kelvin, usually called "warm white",  intended to look
> > almost as orange/yellow as a glow lamp; then we  have "daylight" or
"cold
> > white", which is typically around 6500  Kelvin, and in between is the
> > color temperature that I personally  like best, called "neutral white",
> > which is 4000 to 4500 Kelvin.  Other color temperatures are also
> > manufactured, but are used in  more specialized applications.
> >
> > The other  specification, often neglected, is the Color Rendering Index
> >  (CRI). This is a percentual value, telling how well the spectrum from
a
> > lamp matches the equivalent blackbody spectrum. Very poor  fluorescent
> > lamps could be as bad as 60%, while most are better  than 80%, with the
> > really good ones being above 90%. None of them  can make 100%.
> >
> > Some manufacturers use a three figure  code, where the first figure is
> > the tens of the CRI, and the  other two are the thousands and hundreds
of
> > the color  temperature. For example, a high quality fluorescent lamp
that
> >  has a CRI of 95% and a color temperature of 4000 Kelvin, would be
coded
> > "940".
> >
> > By the way, almost all of  the above applies to white LEDs too. They use
> > phosphors, much the  same as fluorescent lamps. Only that they are
> > excited by an  ultraviolet or blue LED, instead of the ultraviolet
> > radiation  from a low pressure mercury arc.
> >
> > I wish I could find  940 type CFLs locally. The ones I have at present
> > are 840 and  865. Long straight fluorescent tubes are more easily found
> > in 940  color.
> >
> > Manfred
> >
> >  ========================
> > Visit my hobby homepage!
> >  __http://ludens.cl__ (http://ludens.cl_/)   (_http://ludens.cl/_
(http://ludens.cl/) )
> >  ========================
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this  message have been removed]
> >
> >
>  >
>
> --
> Michel Maupoux
> Technical  Director
> Green Empowerment
>  www.greenempowerment.org
>
> [Non-text portions of this message  have been removed]
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have  been removed]
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been  removed]
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been  removed]
>
>
>

--
Michel Maupoux
Technical  Director
Green Empowerment
www.greenempowerment.org

[Non-text  portions of this message have been removed]






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

#15942

From: "sonnykoe" <sonnykoe@...>
Date: Sat Jun 16, 2012 11:59 pm
Subject: Micro Hydro at El Corcovado, Patagonia

sonnykoe

Hello Guys from the Group!

My name is Cristobal.  After years of having it  in mind, I decide to start
building  up a 12v Micro-Hydro in my Parent's  off the grid house  at El
Corcovado,  province of Chubut in Argentina's Patagonia.
This is my first time with this kind of project and I really don't know much
neither from electricity nor turbines, but I have enough faith  to achieve it!
I have some "basics" questions that I would like to be helped if it's possible.

First of all some facts of the site:
Raw Head 32 M
Black Plastic Pipe 2'
Pipe length 200 m
13 mm Nozzle Jet
Enough water to full-fill the  2'' pipe
204 mm diameter aluminuim pelton wheel mounted in a shaft with bearings and a
Multi-diameter pulley starting from 60mm the smallest to 130mm the largest.

Here are the questions:
Is the approximately power of the turbine 0,5 kw?
Is 1 jet of 13mm the right choice for the pipe? Or should I add another and
lower the jet section?
I'm planning to run a 12/24/48v 1000/3000 RPM Permanent Magnet Alternator 
listed at Ebay from Motenergy as I will change the pipe to a 4'' in the future.
Any better choice?
Will  the turbine be able to generate with this PMA with the 2''?
I have intentions to connect  two 12V 200amp batteries in parallel . I think
from what I understood, that regardless the voltage output of the generator, 
while connected to the batteries, and as the load diversion become active, it
will flow  enough energy to the resistors to keep the PMA at 12 v and the
turbine not spinning up?
For last, wich kind of PMA, charge controller and water heating resistors should
I buy?
I'll try to upload some pictures of the project.
Thanky you for your help!

Best regards,
Cristobal

Reply | Messages in this Topic (3)

#15943

From: "Nando" <nando37@...>
Date: Sun Jun 17, 2012 4:57 pm
Subject: Re: Utilizing Wastewater for power

nando37@...

Kerry:
With 60 meter head it is best to use a Turgo turbine producing  60 *4 * 6 = 1.44
KW +/-  I have not calculated efficiencies and friction losses , just an
estimation of them.

With the banki, since you are to be a first time user I recommend the Turgo, You
need to fully understand the banki and how to use it in reference to the head
and the diameter of the turbine.

Utilizing Smart drives motors as generators you need to run them at around not
more than 1200 RPM and lower it is better, the motor has too many poles to work
with

If you insist with a banki do a one to one RPM and set the banki for around a
RPM to produce the wanted power with winding re-wiring trying to keep the
frequency to below 200 Hz.

Due to the 60 meter head you need to do the proper calculations to be able to
use the rear part of the turbine during the second pass of the water to be able
to capture the 18-20 % power available there, again a Turgo would be better.

Nando

   ----- Original Message -----
   From: Kerry Clapham
   To: microhydro@yahoogroups.com
   Sent: Friday, June 15, 2012 19:58
   Subject: Re: [microhydro] Utilizing Wastewater for power



   Hi Bob
   I'm Currently building a Banki (cross flow) turbine, which will power 2x Smart
drives, my site has 60m head (196ft) with a flow of 4 liters per second, in a
alpine environment. So I understand your problem of where do I start??? I'm
currently near the end of my design prosses now, im just working through the
last few things now with the banki turbine(if any one knows of a really good
banki turbine calculation sheet that only requires the head & flow, it would be
very helpful), then i can begin to build :) (at last). Back to you I would have
a look at how much power you can generate first, to do this have a look at this
spread sheet I created for working out the potential power:
  
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AqjBmR66CSYAdFBoc0dCZl9vR29pTktSdWd\
uX0w1WkE
   If you are interested in banki turbines ive got what feels like hundreds of
links that may help - just give me a yell and i'll see what i can do - but it
sounds like you are in pelton/turgo country with 180m of head. I'm not sure how
accurate this chart is, but it may be worth while having a look at it (i found
it while doing my research):
   http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/bf/Water_Turbine_Chart.png

    As far as generator(s) go I'm using smart drives as there is an (almost)
unlimited supply of them at rubbish dumps here in New Zealand, there is a few
tricks ive learnt about them once again give me a yell if you need some info. It
sounds like you have enormous potential with 180m of head so good luck, I'll be
interested to hear how you get on.

   Hope this helps
   Kerry

   ________________________________
   From: "rkweir@..." <rkweir@...>
   To: microhydro@yahoogroups.com
   Sent: Saturday, 16 June 2012 3:18 AM
   Subject: [microhydro] Utilizing Wastewater for power



   Hey guys and Ladies,
   I have a friend that is inquiring about generating power using
   wastewater that will be fed to a terminal treatment plant on the coast. We
don't
   know the exact flows yet but we do know that there is approximately 600 feet
   of head over the plant. This said is there anyone that has ventured into
   such a project? Being a screen guy I think that I can take out everything that
   would interfere with a turbine, but it will be a challenge. I look forward
   to any feedback that can be provided. Thanks in advance.

   Bob

   Robert K. Weir P.E.
   Hydroscreen CO. LLC
   303-333-6071
   Fax 303-393-8298
   e-mail rkweir@...
   _www.hydroscreen.com_ (http://www.hydroscreen.com/)

   "We don't just sell screens, we engineer solutions"

   [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

   [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

#15944

From: "Nando" <nando37@...>
Date: Sun Jun 17, 2012 5:07 pm
Subject: Re: Micro Hydro at El Corcovado, Patagonia

nando37@...

CRISTOBAL:

32 METER HEAD

no  information on the water volume,  to full-fill a 2 inch pipe is a senseless
data, it does not indicate what volume you have, measure the liter/sec

DEBES DE MEDIR los litros/ segundo que la fuente tiene , es el dato verdadero
que necesitas.

I can not calculate the power available because the lack of water volume info ,
also 2 inches is not a pipe to use if the volume is around  more than 6 
liter/sec

If you have  6 liter/second you can get 30 meter * 6 l/s * 6 = 1 KW of power
that you could set to produce 230 V, 50 Hz Argentina power

So start taking the proper data and do measure the water volume accurately and
tell us the seasonal variations

I hope you have not bought any generator yet , if  done properly an induction
motor as generator could give you the needed power.

I will send a message in Spanish to your email address.

Nando

   ----- Original Message -----
   From: sonnykoe
   To: microhydro@yahoogroups.com
   Sent: Saturday, June 16, 2012 18:59
   Subject: [microhydro] Micro Hydro at El Corcovado, Patagonia



   Hello Guys from the Group!

   My name is Cristobal. After years of having it in mind, I decide to start
building up a 12v Micro-Hydro in my Parent's off the grid house at El Corcovado,
province of Chubut in Argentina's Patagonia.
   This is my first time with this kind of project and I really don't know much
neither from electricity nor turbines, but I have enough faith to achieve it!
   I have some "basics" questions that I would like to be helped if it's
possible.

   First of all some facts of the site:
   Raw Head 32 M
   Black Plastic Pipe 2'
   Pipe length 200 m
   13 mm Nozzle Jet
   Enough water to full-fill the 2'' pipe
   204 mm diameter aluminuim pelton wheel mounted in a shaft with bearings and a
Multi-diameter pulley starting from 60mm the smallest to 130mm the largest.

   Here are the questions:
   Is the approximately power of the turbine 0,5 kw?
   Is 1 jet of 13mm the right choice for the pipe? Or should I add another and
lower the jet section?
   I'm planning to run a 12/24/48v 1000/3000 RPM Permanent Magnet Alternator
listed at Ebay from Motenergy as I will change the pipe to a 4'' in the future.
Any better choice?
   Will the turbine be able to generate with this PMA with the 2''?
   I have intentions to connect two 12V 200amp batteries in parallel . I think
from what I understood, that regardless the voltage output of the generator,
while connected to the batteries, and as the load diversion become active, it
will flow enough energy to the resistors to keep the PMA at 12 v and the turbine
not spinning up?
   For last, wich kind of PMA, charge controller and water heating resistors
should I buy?
   I'll try to upload some pictures of the project.
   Thanky you for your help!

   Best regards,
   Cristobal





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Reply | Messages in this Topic (3)

#15945

From: Kerry Clapham <kerryclapham17@...>
Date: Sun Jun 17, 2012 9:32 am
Subject: Re: Utilizing Wastewater for power

kerryclapham17

Hi Bob, All
I'm Currently building a Banki (cross flow) turbine, which will power 2x Smart
drives (direct drive), my site has 60m head (196ft) with a flow of 4 liters per
second, in a alpine environment. So I understand your problem of where do I
start??? I'm currently near the end of my design prosses now, im just working
through the last few things now with the banki turbine(if any one knows of a
really good banki turbine calculation sheet that only requires the head &
flow, it would be very helpful), then i can begin to build :) (at last). Back to
you I would have a look at how much power you can generate first, to do this
have a look at this spread sheet I created for working out
the potential power:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AqjBmR66CSYAdFBoc0dCZl9vR29pTktSdWd\
uX0w1WkE
If you are interested in banki turbines ive got what feels like hundreds of
links that may help - just give me a yell and i'll see what i can do - but it
sounds like you are in pelton/turgo country with 180m of head. I'm not sure
how accurate this chart is, but it may be worth while having a look at it (i
found it while doing my research):
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/bf/Water_Turbine_Chart.png

 As far as generator(s) go I'm using smart drives (from fisher & pichal
washing machines) as there is an (almost) unlimited supply of them
at rubbish dumps here in New Zealand, Here is a few things I've found out
about smartdrives:
*They generate up to around 1500w, but are better suited to 700W: there is
some interesting info in this PDF: 
http://www.ecoinnovation.co.nz/pdf/What%20is%20a%20Smart%20Drive.pdf

*They Generate a high frequency 3 phase AC output
*They are easy to take off the washing machine but there shaft and mounting
requires determination - they need the bearing holder and the bearing to work.
*The copper coils require painting with nail polish to protect them from
corrosion.
*At the dump while selecting (if you are lucky like me and have a selection)
try to get one with the thicker wire, and try to check the smartdrive for
corrosion
*I haven't rewired mine yet but I will have to some day soon
see: http://www.thebackshed.com/
*Likewise I'm yet to decogg mine

It sounds like you have enormous potential with 180m of head so good luck,
I'll be interested to hear how you get on.

Hope this helps
Kerry


________________________________
  From: "rkweir@..." <rkweir@...>
To: microhydro@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Saturday, 16 June 2012 3:18 AM
Subject: [microhydro] Utilizing Wastewater for power


 
Hey guys and Ladies,
I have a friend that is inquiring about generating power using
wastewater that will be fed to a terminal treatment plant on the coast. We don't
know the exact flows yet but we do know that there is approximately 600  feet
of head over the plant. This said is there anyone that has ventured into
such a project? Being a screen guy I think that I can take out everything that
would interfere with a turbine, but it will be a challenge. I look forward
to  any feedback that can be provided. Thanks in advance.

Bob

Robert K.  Weir P.E.
Hydroscreen CO. LLC
303-333-6071
Fax 303-393-8298
e-mail rkweir@...
_www.hydroscreen.com_ (http://www.hydroscreen.com/)

"We don't  just sell screens, we engineer solutions"

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

#15946

From: Kerry Clapham <kerryclapham17@...>
Date: Mon Jun 18, 2012 2:17 am
Subject: Re: Utilizing Wastewater for power

kerryclapham17

Hi Nando, all

sorry about the double email

Banki or turgo?:
I was thinking a bout a Banki because of the its easy to construct compared with
a turgo, But I'm open to suggestions as to how to build a turgo. I have accses
to a lath and I  can weld..
About Banki turbines, I've built one before, but only for the fun of it...

The problem i have at the moment is trying to find the correct turbine
diameter and number of blades for my site. I know how to calculate the r(1)
r(2) & a & g from the diameter though. Idealy for the blades i would use 90mm
(outside diameter) steel pipe i have on hand, the high tensile pipe is 3.8mm
thick.

Kerry


________________________________
  From: Nando <nando37@...>
To: microhydro@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Monday, 18 June 2012 4:57 AM
Subject: Re: [microhydro] Utilizing Wastewater for power


 
Kerry:
With 60 meter head it is best to use a Turgo turbine producing  60 *4 * 6 = 1.44
KW +/-  I have not calculated efficiencies and friction losses , just an
estimation of them.

With the banki, since you are to be a first time user I recommend the Turgo, You
need to fully understand the banki and how to use it in reference to the head
and the diameter of the turbine.

Utilizing Smart drives motors as generators you need to run them at around not
more than 1200 RPM and lower it is better, the motor has too many poles to work
with

If you insist with a banki do a one to one RPM and set the banki for around a
RPM to produce the wanted power with winding re-wiring trying to keep the
frequency to below 200 Hz.

Due to the 60 meter head you need to do the proper calculations to be able to
use the rear part of the turbine during the second pass of the water to be able
to capture the 18-20 % power available there, again a Turgo would be better.

Nando

----- Original Message -----
From: Kerry Clapham
To: microhydro@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, June 15, 2012 19:58
Subject: Re: [microhydro] Utilizing Wastewater for power

Hi Bob
I'm Currently building a Banki (cross flow) turbine, which will power 2x Smart
drives, my site has 60m head (196ft) with a flow of 4 liters per second, in a
alpine environment. So I understand your problem of where do I start??? I'm
currently near the end of my design prosses now, im just working through the
last few things now with the banki turbine(if any one knows of a really good
banki turbine calculation sheet that only requires the head & flow, it would be
very helpful), then i can begin to build :) (at last). Back to you I would have
a look at how much power you can generate first, to do this have a look at this
spread sheet I created for working out the potential power:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AqjBmR66CSYAdFBoc0dCZl9vR29pTktSdWd\
uX0w1WkE
If you are interested in banki turbines ive got what feels like hundreds of
links that may help - just give me a yell and i'll see what i can do - but it
sounds like you are in pelton/turgo country with 180m of head. I'm not sure how
accurate this chart is, but it may be worth while having a look at it (i found
it while doing my research):
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/bf/Water_Turbine_Chart.png

As far as generator(s) go I'm using smart drives as there is an (almost)
unlimited supply of them at rubbish dumps here in New Zealand, there is a few
tricks ive learnt about them once again give me a yell if you need some info. It
sounds like you have enormous potential with 180m of head so good luck, I'll be
interested to hear how you get on.

Hope this helps
Kerry

________________________________
From: "rkweir@..." <rkweir@...>
To: microhydro@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Saturday, 16 June 2012 3:18 AM
Subject: [microhydro] Utilizing Wastewater for power

Hey guys and Ladies,
I have a friend that is inquiring about generating power using
wastewater that will be fed to a terminal treatment plant on the coast. We don't
know the exact flows yet but we do know that there is approximately 600 feet
of head over the plant. This said is there anyone that has ventured into
such a project? Being a screen guy I think that I can take out everything that
would interfere with a turbine, but it will be a challenge. I look forward
to any feedback that can be provided. Thanks in advance.

Bob

Robert K. Weir P.E.
Hydroscreen CO. LLC
303-333-6071
Fax 303-393-8298
e-mail rkweir@...
_www.hydroscreen.com_ (http://www.hydroscreen.com/)

"We don't just sell screens, we engineer solutions"

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

#15947

From: Cristobal <sonnykoe@...>
Date: Mon Jun 18, 2012 1:52 pm
Subject: Re: Micro Hydro at El Corcovado, Patagonia

sonnykoe

Nando,
Thank you for your reply.

The water volume at the dam outlet is 8 l/s at the rainy season and arround 4
l/s at the dry season.


________________________________
  From: Nando <nando37@...>
To: microhydro@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, June 17, 2012 2:07 PM
Subject: Re: [microhydro] Micro Hydro at El Corcovado, Patagonia


CRISTOBAL:
 
32 METER HEAD
 
no  information on the water volume,  to full-fill a 2 inch pipe
is a senseless data, it does not indicate what volume you have, measure the
liter/sec
 
DEBES DE MEDIR los litros/ segundo que la fuente tiene , es el dato
verdadero que necesitas.
 
I can not calculate the power available because the lack of water volume
info , also 2 inches is not a pipe to use if the volume is around  more
than 6  liter/sec
 
If you have  6 liter/second you can get 30 meter * 6 l/s * 6 = 1 KW of
power that you could set to produce 230 V, 50 Hz Argentina power
 
So start taking the proper data and do measure the water volume accurately
and tell us the seasonal variations
 
I hope you have not bought any generator yet , if  done properly an
induction motor as generator could give you the needed power.
 
I will send a message in Spanish to your email address.
 
Nando
 
----- Original Message -----
>From: sonnykoe
>To: microhydro@yahoogroups.com
>Sent: Saturday, June 16, 2012 18:59
>Subject: [microhydro] Micro Hydro at El  Corcovado, Patagonia
>
> 
>Hello Guys from the Group!
>
>My name is Cristobal. After years of
   having it in mind, I decide to start building up a 12v Micro-Hydro in my
   Parent's off the grid house at El Corcovado, province of Chubut in Argentina's
   Patagonia.
>This is my first time with this kind of project and I really
   don't know much neither from electricity nor turbines, but I have enough faith
   to achieve it!
>I have some "basics" questions that I would like to be
   helped if it's possible.
>
>First of all some facts of the site:
>Raw
   Head 32 M
>Black Plastic Pipe 2'
>Pipe length 200 m
>13 mm Nozzle Jet
>Enough water to full-fill the 2'' pipe
>204 mm diameter aluminuim pelton
   wheel mounted in a shaft with bearings and a Multi-diameter pulley starting
   from 60mm the smallest to 130mm the largest.
>
>Here are the
   questions:
>Is the approximately power of the turbine 0,5 kw?
>Is 1 jet of
   13mm the right choice for the pipe? Or should I add another and lower the jet
   section?
>I'm planning to run a 12/24/48v 1000/3000 RPM Permanent Magnet
   Alternator listed at Ebay from Motenergy as I will change the pipe to a 4'' in
   the future. Any better choice?
>Will the turbine be able to generate with
   this PMA with the 2''?
>I have intentions to connect two 12V 200amp
   batteries in parallel . I think from what I understood, that regardless the
   voltage output of the generator, while connected to the batteries, and as the
   load diversion become active, it will flow enough energy to the resistors to
   keep the PMA at 12 v and the turbine not spinning up?
>For last, wich kind
   of PMA, charge controller and water heating resistors should I buy?
>I'll
   try to upload some pictures of the project.
>Thanky you for your
   help!
>
>Best regards,
>Cristobal
>
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Reply | Messages in this Topic (3)

#15948

From: "susankaveny1" <susankaveny1@...>
Date: Mon Jun 18, 2012 2:54 pm
Subject: Another auction site

susankaveny1

http://www.networkintl.com/default.aspx
These guys auction commercial equipment around the world.  A common thing that
they sell is pipe. This is usually oil field metal pipe and is good quality.
It's worth checking once in a while if you're building anything, because they
may have what you need and be selling it close enough to you to save you a bunch
on shipping. The selling price might be right, too. At this moment, they don't
seem to be selling much stuff that would be useful to group members, but
sometimes they do.
Sue Kaveny

Reply | Messages in this Topic (1)

#15949

From: Manfred Mornhinweg <manfred@...>
Date: Tue Jun 19, 2012 1:01 am
Subject: Re: energy saver compaign

mmornhin

John,

  > It is very nice to adjust light  levels for safety, effect, and
economy.

I can accept the "effect" part. However don't see how a dimnmed light is
safer than one at full brightness. And most certainly, dimming lights
for economy is very misled! This is because glow bulbs, which have
extremely low efficiency (like 2%) at full brightness, have even much
lower efficiency when dimmed! With the dimmer set to half range (the
exact values depend of course on the specific dimmer), they might still
consume 80% of the full power, but produce only 10% as much light as at
full brightness, so that their efficiency falls FAR below 1%! In
addition the light color changes and becomes extremely reddish, which
might be desirable for effect in some cases, but otherwise is a nuisance.

Someone else commented a few days ago that CFLs usually have a poor
power factor. That's true, and undimmed glow bulbs have an excellent
power factor. But dimmed glow bulbs have as poor a power factor as CFLs!

To adjust illumination levels without compromising efficiency, one quite
simple approach is to have several light switches controlling lamps of
widely differing power. For example, in a large room at home you might
have one switch controlling four 27 watt CFLs, and another switch
controlling a single 9 watt CFL. Sure, that's not finely adjustable, but
it provides either a full, bright illumination, or a soft, delicate one,
and both of them at good efficiency.

The additional light switch and circuit are less costly than a dimmer.

If your alternative to this is four 100 watt glow bulbs controlled
through a dimmer, they would give about as much light when fully on (at
1/4 the efficiency or less), but when dimmed to the level of the single
9 watt CFL, they will use about 30 times as much power!

I agree in that it makes no sense to spend huge lots of money on high
tech, sophisticated lights that don't give any real advantage. But this
method of using two or even three light circuits in a room is
inexpensive, practical, efficient, and uses only the most commonly
available materials.

In Chile, dimmers are rarely used, just like in Europe. Sectorized
lighting with lamps of varying powers is instead quite usual.

Manfred


========================
Visit my hobby homepage!
http://ludens.cl
========================