We produce turgos type turbines in Bolivia.
   See www.watermotor.net

  Ron Davis



At 05:43 p.m. 25/11/03 +0200, you wrote:
>Dear all,
>
>I have been contacted by someone who is looking into the possibility of
>local production of Pelton and/or Francis turbines in Central America.
>Could anyone help him on good blue prints on how to do this?
>
>Kind regards,
>
>
>Wim
>
>    =================================================
>    ir W.E. Klunne
>    consultant sustainable energy and climate change
>    P.O. Box 420 · 7500 AK Enschede · the Netherlands
>
>    telephone South Africa: +27 83 4217914
>    telephone the Netherlands: +31 6 28964969
>    fax: +1 360 3432421 (to be delivered by e-mail)
>
>    e-mail:            wim.klunne@...
>    microhydro portal:     http://microhydropower.net
>    personal pages: http://microhydropower.net/klunne
>    =================================================
>
>
>
>
>
>
>Does your company feature in the microhydro business directory at
http://microhydropower.net/directory ? If not, please register free of
charge and be exposed to the microhydro community world wide!
>
>NOTE: The advertisements in this email are added by Yahoogroups who
provides us with free email group services. The microhydro-group does not
endorse products or support the advertisements in any way.
>
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>
>To unsubscribe: send empty message to microhydro-unsubscribe@YahooGroups.com
>
>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>

Unbelievable that anyone would dare to request such information.

I would understand a forum on small hydros for  home applictation as most of
the messages one sees in this group.  But having a designer, manufacturer or
what have you, release propietary information of this sort and magnitude it
would be totally absurd.

This person in Central America.  Would he need free money as well to startr
his business?  I anyone knows about these sources of information, please let
me know also and let us stand in line for all these freebes.

Eddy Casares
----- Original Message -----
From: "Wim Klunne" <wim.klunne@...>
To: "microhydro eGroup" <microhydro@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, November 25, 2003 10:43 AM
Subject: [microhydro] blue prints Pelton / Francis turbines


> Dear all,
>
> I have been contacted by someone who is looking into the possibility of
> local production of Pelton and/or Francis turbines in Central America.
> Could anyone help him on good blue prints on how to do this?
>
> Kind regards,
>
>
> Wim
>
>     =================================================
>     ir W.E. Klunne
>     consultant sustainable energy and climate change
>     P.O. Box 420 · 7500 AK Enschede · the Netherlands
>
>     telephone South Africa: +27 83 4217914
>     telephone the Netherlands: +31 6 28964969
>     fax: +1 360 3432421 (to be delivered by e-mail)
>
>     e-mail:            wim.klunne@...
>     microhydro portal:     http://microhydropower.net
>     personal pages: http://microhydropower.net/klunne
>     =================================================
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Does your company feature in the microhydro business directory at
http://microhydropower.net/directory ? If not, please register free of
charge and be exposed to the microhydro community world wide!
>
> NOTE: The advertisements in this email are added by Yahoogroups who
provides us with free email group services. The microhydro-group does not
endorse products or support the advertisements in any way.
>
> More information on micro hydropower at http://microhydropower.net
>
> To unsubscribe: send empty message to
microhydro-unsubscribe@YahooGroups.com
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>

Does anyone know how to develop these curves for a PM Generator, or
PM Alternator?

Thanks.

Hi Wim,

We can supply plastic injection moulded pelton buckets and smart drive PMG's for
small (upto 1 kW 12/24/48 vdc) units at very low prices for volume orders. Plans
provided.

Minimum orders of parts for 50 turbines would be required.

Regards


Michael Lawley
EcoInnovation

   ----- Original Message -----
   From: Wim Klunne
   To: microhydro eGroup
   Sent: Wednesday, November 26, 2003 4:43 AM
   Subject: [microhydro] blue prints Pelton / Francis turbines


   Dear all,

   I have been contacted by someone who is looking into the possibility of
   local production of Pelton and/or Francis turbines in Central America.
   Could anyone help him on good blue prints on how to do this?

   Kind regards,


   Wim

       =================================================
       ir W.E. Klunne
       consultant sustainable energy and climate change
       P.O. Box 420 · 7500 AK Enschede · the Netherlands

       telephone South Africa: +27 83 4217914
       telephone the Netherlands: +31 6 28964969
       fax: +1 360 3432421 (to be delivered by e-mail)

       e-mail:            wim.klunne@...
       microhydro portal:     http://microhydropower.net
       personal pages: http://microhydropower.net/klunne
       =================================================





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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

See my site (in french)

http://clients.newel.net/particulier/amader/

sincerely
  A MENDRET


   ----- Original Message -----
   From: R. P. Singh
   To: microhydro@yahoogroups.com
   Sent: Friday, November 14, 2003 3:34 PM
   Subject: [microhydro]


   Dear Friends
   I am looking for the articals, news letter and reports for evaluating micro
hydro based on economics i.e. economical evaluation.
   Thanks
   Rana


   [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hello

The best soluiton I know to have precision is the dynamometric system

As the power is week , you have to build your alternator !
Use a magnetic circuit of Asynchronous motor 3 phase if possible  , easy to find
(2 hp about)
This magnetic will be closed in a carter
The carter should not be fixed on "ground"  but must have the possibility of
turning around the same axis as rotor but with strict limitation  of angle
The construction of the multi poles rotor , eventually with magnets is not
diffcult
You undesrstand that it  will be easy to mesure torque with obtaining stability
( balance)

Other solution is to buy a complete DC dynamometric system , new or old !
Perhaps you could find it in a laboratory , in a ingenier school .....
excuse my english
Sincerely
  A MENDRET
   ----- Original Message -----
   From: jerrybrooke
   To: microhydro@yahoogroups.com
   Sent: Thursday, November 20, 2003 11:38 PM
   Subject: [microhydro] Selection of Generator


   My Eng. Design Team is planning on using a Harris-Pelton turbine in a
   closed loop system.  We are thinking about using a 80 gallon water
   tank pressurized with air.  We will use a 2 inch pipe to carry the
   water to the turbine.  From the turbine the water flows into a
   reservoir (currently planning 120 gal. for safety purposes) which is
   pumped (1 - 1 1/2 hp pump) back into the tank.

   The problem we are having is that we need to be able to measure the
   torque of the generator.  Would it be better to go with an alternator
   already on the turbine or buy a PM DC Generator from a place like
   windstreampower?

   This is going to be used as a piece of lab equipment for measuring
   different variables to emphasize fundamental engineering principles
   in electrical and mechanical curriculums.  We are gonna use Data
   Acquisition in meters and labview.  If anyone has any feedback on
   things to look at for other than for a generator, it would also be
   appreciated.





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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

http://www.usbr.gov/pmts/hydraulics_lab/winflume/index.html

HELLO ,

I studied that question and you may visit my site (in french) at

http://clients.newel.net/particulier/amader/


if you are interested look at the link  :  L'eau qui court

In the software that is possible to download from the site , you will find a
calculation of that type of wheel

Sincerely
  A MENDRET


   ----- Original Message -----
   From: steve gregory
   To: microhydro@yahoogroups.com
   Sent: Friday, November 14, 2003 4:35 AM
   Subject: [microhydro] River flow equations


   Greetings,
   There is a more general formula for any turbines in the flow of a river.
   It is Power(W) = Kx densityxArea x Velocity cubed
   K varies from turbine to turbine and there is published data on this
   Trust this helps,
   Stephen Gregory, M.A.Sc.,P.Eng.

   President

   Alternative Hydro Solutions Ltd.

   75 Spruce Hill Ave.

   Toronto, ON

   Canada

   M4E 3G2

   416.698.5813

   416.570.5813 cell

   sdgregory@...

     ----- Original Message -----
     From: Robert Vitale
     To: microhydro@yahoogroups.com
     Sent: Tuesday, November 11, 2003 11:39 PM
     Subject: [microhydro] River Wheel HP Calculations


     Hello

     I am trying to find some good working river paddle wheel power equations.

     I cam across one equation from a 1927 civil engineering hydraulics text book
     that stated the following:

     A = Area of the paddle exposed to the current (Cubic Feet)
     V = Velocity of water in (feet / sec)
     E = efficiency of the wheel, Generally around .30
     H = Horse Power
     G = gravity
     W = water

     H= (e*w*a*v^2) / (2g*550)

     Substituting 62.5 for water and 32.16 for g

     H = .00177 * E * A * v^2

     Assumption: This equations works if two of the paddles are in the water at
     any given time.

     Is this a good basic working formula?

     Thanks

     Bob Vitale




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   [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Like to know if anyone has experience, or running Power generator from Alconza.
  I'm planning to by one.  I dont know  how to compare.
                                  Thanks.
                                    vic

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sir  Mendert Albert
Thank you very much for the mail. I am relieved that i atleast have some people
to resort to about my project. I completely agree with you that the project is
difficult but not impossible and we have made way in this respect.
We have narrowed down our calculations using a min. of 60% efficiency due to
lack of proper manufacturing infrastructure. Apart from that our calc. give us a
total of 3 blades as the best solution in a kaplan turbine.
Blade angles is one of the most toughest jobs .. i visited your site but due to
the lack of a common medium i was unable to understand that site. I can either
gain information in english or urdu.
Please give me a few tips on blade profiles and its calculations for kaplan.
My email is u2000181@...
Thank you very much
Mubeen
   ----- Original Message -----
   From: MENDRET Albert
   To: microhydro@yahoogroups.com
   Sent: Friday, November 14, 2003 1:03 PM
   Subject: Re: [microhydro] Important

   Good morning

   I am french et it is not so easy to reply

   I have to say that I developped a site myself oin hydraulic questions but it
is in french
   For your wheel I find in my software
   for H = 4 m
   Q =3.8 m3/s
   using N= 300 T/min

   Results are
   wheel  Hélice or Kaplan
   diameter 1.00
   Height of distributor 0.38
   P = 119 kw with efficacity 80%

   You must begin with velocity triangles !
   the determination of blades is very difficult !!

   Your project is difficult
   I wolud be pleased to help you more

   MY PRIVATE SITE

   http://clients.newel.net/particulier/amader/

   Sincerely

   A MENDRET

     ----- Original Message -----
     From: Mubeen Waqar
     To: microhydro@yahoogroups.com
     Sent: Sunday, November 09, 2003 10:58 AM
     Subject: [microhydro] Important

     Hi,
     I am a student of mechanical engineering. My project is the design,
fabrication and installation of kaplan turbine.

     Head = 11.8 ft
     Q = 3.8 m^3/sec ... lowest for the year on that canal !
     velocity = 1.4 m/s
     power expected = 100kw

     these are the site informations i have. can some1 please help me in the
design of this turbine. my specific problem is related to the blade profiles.
after i finish with the velocity triangles what am i supposed to do ?

     Thank you
     Mubeen

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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I am just completing installing a crossflow turbine. The normal head will be 28
feet. Pipe is 10 inches ID. I anticipate around 4 KW production.

Part of the time the head will increase by a foot or two. Can somebody tell me
what such head increases will add to my KW production?

Thanks.

Mike

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

M Reed Enterprises wrote:
>
> I am just completing installing a crossflow turbine. The normal head will be
28 feet. Pipe is 10 inches ID. I anticipate around 4 KW production.
>
> Part of the time the head will increase by a foot or two. Can somebody tell me
what such head increases will add to my KW production?
>
> Thanks.
>
> Mike

For any impulse turbine, including a crossflow, provided there is no change to
the geometry of the unit  (e.g. nozzle size is not changed) the flow rate is
proportional to sqrt(net head).  Thus the hydraulic power, which is the power of
the flowing water is proportional to net head x flow, i.e. proportional to (net
head)^1.5.

Now before this result can be applied to your particular question we need to
consider (a) how is the net head affected by increasing the static head and (b)
how does the efficiency of your proposed hydro-generator vary with change in
head and flow rate.

(a) net head
This is one example where the underlying algebra works nicely in our favour.
Net head is the static head, less losses due to pipe friction and intake
losses.  Now pipe friction is proportional to (flow rate)^2 and to an acceptable
approximation this is also true of intake losses. I'll leave the algebra as an
exercise for those interested - however because of the quadratic relationship
between flow rate and net head, as well as between flow rate and friction loss,
the ratio between net head and static head does not change if the static head
changes.  This assumes, of course, that the penstock itself is not altered to
accommodate the change in head.

This is worth stating explicitly as a result in its own right: Provided the
geometry of a turbine and the hydraulic structures connected to it remain fixed,
the ratio of net head to static head is independent of the absolute value of
either of these quantities.

(b) efficiency
If the nozzle size of the turbine is adjusted, then this will alter the part
flow proportion and hence the efficiency.  A graph of this is given at:
http://www.ossberger.de/sites/en/img/4-3b.jpg.  However, there should be no need
to adjust the nozzle, in which case the factors causing change to efficiency are
more subtle, being due to velocity dependent hydraulic and mechanical friction.

We have software that allows us to simulate the performance of our
Banki-crossflow systems. Under typical full flow conditions, the simulations
indicate that for a 10% increase in head, there is a relative decrease in
overall efficiency of between 0.2% and 0.5%.  I don't know if this is true
generally, but in any case it is sufficiently small that it can be ignored here.


This now clears the way for us to use the simple relationship stated in the
first paragraph.  Increasing the head by 1 ft, will increase output by 5.4%.
Increasing the head by 2 ft will increase output by 11.1%.

By the way, those of you familiar with the binomial theorem of elementary
algebra will have realized that if the proportional increase in head is small,
there is a quick, good approximation to finding the increase in power.  It
increases 1.5 times more quickly than the head.  That is a 1% increase in head
gives a 1.5% increase in power; a 2% increase in head gives a 3% increase in
power, and so on.

Regards,

Max Enfield
Planetary Power

Dear EDDY CASARES

unbelievable that someones answer is in such a way, it
seems that construction design of Pelton and Francis
runners is something like a holy grail for them who
know how to. And another comment I would like to
place: there are no stupid or daring questions, only
stupid answers. Do you really think that all of this
runner manufacturers out there started from scratch
with their runner designs? They picked up their first
toughts from sources to which they had access to and
from there, they started to improve their design. I
asume that the requester for blue prints did not
expect to get the latest and sophisticated editions of
designs. but when he already gets some of this sources
to which others had access to, he will be already very
happy. And nowbody said that he wouldn't be willing to
pay for this informations or to make license
agreements.
Your reaction shows in a very decriptive way the
attitude of some individuals in the microhydro scene
how I do experience it. I lot of well meant advices,
but when it comes to the point, big secretiveness,
especially from people who are dealing with this
topics professionaly. It is not meant that they give
away their newest knowledge, but basic knowledge, why
not? When you compare, there are a lot of very good
hints and knows about crossflow turbines and howdos
for piping out there. This informations are provided
by individuals with a lot of idealism, people who
deserve our respect. Why not about pelton, kaplan and
francis?
I should stop my fervor now.
But I would like to give you the link to a research
center from which you can buy blueprints for Peltons
with guaranteed efficiency.

http://www.mhylab.com/wwwmhylab/index.htm

unfortunately, for English speaking people, all is
written in French. however, contact them under
info@...

They are also in progress to develop a Kaplan turbine.

http://www.iskb.ch/mhylab.htm

http://www.romande-energie.ch/wwwromande/pages/groupe/techno_recherche.asp


with best regards

Thomas Köhli






  <gulfatlan@...> schrieb: > Unbelievable
that anyone would dare to request such
> information.
>
> I would understand a forum on small hydros for  home
> applictation as most of
> the messages one sees in this group.  But having a
> designer, manufacturer or
> what have you, release propietary information of
> this sort and magnitude it
> would be totally absurd.
>
> This person in Central America.  Would he need free
> money as well to startr
> his business?  I anyone knows about these sources of
> information, please let
> me know also and let us stand in line for all these
> freebes.
>
> Eddy Casares
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Wim Klunne" <wim.klunne@...>
> To: "microhydro eGroup" <microhydro@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Tuesday, November 25, 2003 10:43 AM
> Subject: [microhydro] blue prints Pelton / Francis
> turbines
>
>
> > Dear all,
> >
> > I have been contacted by someone who is looking
> into the possibility of
> > local production of Pelton and/or Francis turbines
> in Central America.
> > Could anyone help him on good blue prints on how
> to do this?
> >
> > Kind regards,
> >
> >
> > Wim
> >
> >
> =================================================
> >     ir W.E. Klunne
> >     consultant sustainable energy and climate
> change
> >     P.O. Box 420 · 7500 AK Enschede · the
> Netherlands
> >
> >     telephone South Africa: +27 83 4217914
> >     telephone the Netherlands: +31 6 28964969
> >     fax: +1 360 3432421 (to be delivered by
> e-mail)
> >
> >     e-mail:
> wim.klunne@...
> >     microhydro portal:
> http://microhydropower.net
> >     personal pages:
> http://microhydropower.net/klunne
> >
> =================================================
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Does your company feature in the microhydro
> business directory at
> http://microhydropower.net/directory ? If not,
> please register free of
> charge and be exposed to the microhydro community
> world wide!
> >
> > NOTE: The advertisements in this email are added
> by Yahoogroups who
> provides us with free email group services. The
> microhydro-group does not
> endorse products or support the advertisements in
> any way.
> >
> > More information on micro hydropower at
> http://microhydropower.net
> >
> > To unsubscribe: send empty message to
> microhydro-unsubscribe@YahooGroups.com
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >
>
>
>

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--- In microhydro@yahoogroups.com, "M Reed Enterprises" <mreed@m...>
wrote:
> I am just completing installing a crossflow turbine. The normal
>head will be 28 feet. Pipe is 10 inches ID. I anticipate around 4 KW
>production.
>
> Part of the time the head will increase by a foot or two. Can
>somebody tell me what such head increases will add to my KW
>production?

The simple formula is P=10xQxH where P is power in watts, Q is flow
in litres/sec and H is head in metres
Thus P is proportional to head, assuming constant flow.
Thus power should be 29/28 * 4Kw =  4142 Watts

If this is wrong Im sure someone will post a correction

David

Dec. 3, 2003

   Hello All,

      We are soon to give a course in microhydropower for graduating
Bolivian mechanical engineers who will be spending an obligatory year in
the rural area trying share useful knowledge.
    We would lke to hear from any members who have ideas as to what could be
taught along these lines that would be truely helpful.
   There is a great deal of both small and large scale hydro potential here.
  We would like ideas that would help people use waterpower for rural
production rather than supplying electricity to off the grid middle class
homes.

      Ron Davis www.watermotor.net

Concerning the production of Pelton turbine for microhyedropower here in Cuba we
have this possibility if it is necessary I can contact them because we have more
than 100 working   without any problem

Lamyser

----- Original Message -----
   From: Ron and Diane
   To: microhydro@yahoogroups.com
   Sent: Tuesday, November 25, 2003 10:55 AM
   Subject: Re: [microhydro] blue prints Pelton / Francis turbines



   We produce turgos type turbines in Bolivia.
     See www.watermotor.net

   Ron Davis



   At 05:43 p.m. 25/11/03 +0200, you wrote:
   >Dear all,
   >
   >I have been contacted by someone who is looking into the possibility of
   >local production of Pelton and/or Francis turbines in Central America.
   >Could anyone help him on good blue prints on how to do this?
   >
   >Kind regards,
   >
   >
   >Wim
   >
   >    =================================================
   >    ir W.E. Klunne
   >    consultant sustainable energy and climate change
   >    P.O. Box 420 · 7500 AK Enschede · the Netherlands
   >
   >    telephone South Africa: +27 83 4217914
   >    telephone the Netherlands: +31 6 28964969
   >    fax: +1 360 3432421 (to be delivered by e-mail)
   >
   >    e-mail:            wim.klunne@...
   >    microhydro portal:     http://microhydropower.net
   >    personal pages: http://microhydropower.net/klunne
   >    =================================================
   >
   >
   >
   >
   >
   >
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   http://microhydropower.net/directory ? If not, please register free of
   charge and be exposed to the microhydro community world wide!
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

hello,

The power will increase as  (H2/H1)^3/2 but to be totally true that asks to
increase speed in
sort  that :
  N2/N1 = (H2/H1)^0.5


Example  H1 =28   P1 =4000 watts
  H2 = 30
With N2/N1 =1,035
           P2/P1  = 1.109     gives   P2 = 4436 watts

sincerely

Albert MENDRET
FRANCE

http://clients.newel.net/particulier/amader/






   ----- Original Message -----
   From: M Reed Enterprises
   To: microhydro@yahoogroups.com
   Sent: Tuesday, December 02, 2003 9:03 PM
   Subject: [microhydro] How much power per added foot of head


   I am just completing installing a crossflow turbine. The normal head will be
28 feet. Pipe is 10 inches ID. I anticipate around 4 KW production.

   Part of the time the head will increase by a foot or two. Can somebody tell me
what such head increases will add to my KW production?

   Thanks.

   Mike

   [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Thank you for this.

My guru and installer told me yesterday that the output would increase
proportionally. Thus, using the same numbers, I would get an additional 2/28th
of power or 286 more watts. Of course, I like your numbers better. But still
wonder who is correct.

Thanks again.

Mike
   ----- Original Message -----
   From: MENDRET Albert
   To: microhydro@yahoogroups.com
   Sent: Wednesday, December 03, 2003 11:59 AM
   Subject: Re: [microhydro] How much power per added foot of head


   hello,

   The power will increase as  (H2/H1)^3/2 but to be totally true that asks to
increase speed in
   sort  that :
   N2/N1 = (H2/H1)^0.5


   Example  H1 =28   P1 =4000 watts
   H2 = 30
   With N2/N1 =1,035
             P2/P1  = 1.109     gives   P2 = 4436 watts

   sincerely

   Albert MENDRET
   FRANCE

   http://clients.newel.net/particulier/amader/






     ----- Original Message -----
     From: M Reed Enterprises
     To: microhydro@yahoogroups.com
     Sent: Tuesday, December 02, 2003 9:03 PM
     Subject: [microhydro] How much power per added foot of head


     I am just completing installing a crossflow turbine. The normal head will be
28 feet. Pipe is 10 inches ID. I anticipate around 4 KW production.

     Part of the time the head will increase by a foot or two. Can somebody tell
me what such head increases will add to my KW production?

     Thanks.

     Mike

     [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



           Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
                 ADVERTISEMENT




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and be exposed to the microhydro community world wide!

     NOTE: The advertisements in this email are added by Yahoogroups who provides
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products or support the advertisements in any way.

     More information on micro hydropower at http://microhydropower.net

     To unsubscribe: send empty message to microhydro-unsubscribe@YahooGroups.com

     Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.


   [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Yes indeed

And there is no great mystery in the Pelton. Jeremy Thake's excellent book,
'The Pelton Design Manual' explains the subject well and provides plans.


>From: Köhli Thomas <thomaskoehli@...>
>Reply-To: microhydro@yahoogroups.com
>To: microhydro@yahoogroups.com
>Subject: Re: [microhydro] blue prints Pelton / Francis turbines
>Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2003 12:06:40 +0100 (CET)
>
>Dear EDDY CASARES
>
>unbelievable that someones answer is in such a way, it
>seems that construction design of Pelton and Francis
>runners is something like a holy grail for them who
>know how to. And another comment I would like to
>place: there are no stupid or daring questions, only
>stupid answers. Do you really think that all of this
>runner manufacturers out there started from scratch
>with their runner designs? They picked up their first
>toughts from sources to which they had access to and
>from there, they started to improve their design. I
>asume that the requester for blue prints did not
>expect to get the latest and sophisticated editions of
>designs. but when he already gets some of this sources
>to which others had access to, he will be already very
>happy. And nowbody said that he wouldn't be willing to
>pay for this informations or to make license
>agreements.
>Your reaction shows in a very decriptive way the
>attitude of some individuals in the microhydro scene
>how I do experience it. I lot of well meant advices,
>but when it comes to the point, big secretiveness,
>especially from people who are dealing with this
>topics professionaly. It is not meant that they give
>away their newest knowledge, but basic knowledge, why
>not? When you compare, there are a lot of very good
>hints and knows about crossflow turbines and howdos
>for piping out there. This informations are provided
>by individuals with a lot of idealism, people who
>deserve our respect. Why not about pelton, kaplan and
>francis?
>I should stop my fervor now.
>But I would like to give you the link to a research
>center from which you can buy blueprints for Peltons
>with guaranteed efficiency.
>
>http://www.mhylab.com/wwwmhylab/index.htm
>
>unfortunately, for English speaking people, all is
>written in French. however, contact them under
>info@...
>
>They are also in progress to develop a Kaplan turbine.
>
>http://www.iskb.ch/mhylab.htm
>
>http://www.romande-energie.ch/wwwromande/pages/groupe/techno_recherche.asp
>
>
>with best regards
>
>Thomas Köhli
>
>
>
>
>
>
>  <gulfatlan@...> schrieb: > Unbelievable
>that anyone would dare to request such
> > information.
> >
> > I would understand a forum on small hydros for  home
> > applictation as most of
> > the messages one sees in this group.  But having a
> > designer, manufacturer or
> > what have you, release propietary information of
> > this sort and magnitude it
> > would be totally absurd.
> >
> > This person in Central America.  Would he need free
> > money as well to startr
> > his business?  I anyone knows about these sources of
> > information, please let
> > me know also and let us stand in line for all these
> > freebes.
> >
> > Eddy Casares
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Wim Klunne" <wim.klunne@...>
> > To: "microhydro eGroup" <microhydro@yahoogroups.com>
> > Sent: Tuesday, November 25, 2003 10:43 AM
> > Subject: [microhydro] blue prints Pelton / Francis
> > turbines
> >
> >
> > > Dear all,
> > >
> > > I have been contacted by someone who is looking
> > into the possibility of
> > > local production of Pelton and/or Francis turbines
> > in Central America.
> > > Could anyone help him on good blue prints on how
> > to do this?
> > >
> > > Kind regards,
> > >
> > >
> > > Wim
> > >
> > >
> > =================================================
> > >     ir W.E. Klunne
> > >     consultant sustainable energy and climate
> > change
> > >     P.O. Box 420 · 7500 AK Enschede · the
> > Netherlands
> > >
> > >     telephone South Africa: +27 83 4217914
> > >     telephone the Netherlands: +31 6 28964969
> > >     fax: +1 360 3432421 (to be delivered by
> > e-mail)
> > >
> > >     e-mail:
> > wim.klunne@...
> > >     microhydro portal:
> > http://microhydropower.net
> > >     personal pages:
> > http://microhydropower.net/klunne
> > >
> > =================================================
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Does your company feature in the microhydro
> > business directory at
> > http://microhydropower.net/directory ? If not,
> > please register free of
> > charge and be exposed to the microhydro community
> > world wide!
> > >
> > > NOTE: The advertisements in this email are added
> > by Yahoogroups who
> > provides us with free email group services. The
> > microhydro-group does not
> > endorse products or support the advertisements in
> > any way.
> > >
> > > More information on micro hydropower at
> > http://microhydropower.net
> > >
> > > To unsubscribe: send empty message to
> > microhydro-unsubscribe@YahooGroups.com
> > >
> > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
>
>__________________________________________________________________
>
>Gesendet von Yahoo! Mail - http://mail.yahoo.de
>Logos und Klingeltöne fürs Handy bei http://sms.yahoo.de
>

_________________________________________________________________
Use MSN Messenger to send music and pics to your friends
http://www.msn.co.uk/messenger

>From: "allenderd" <allenderd@...>
>Reply-To: microhydro@yahoogroups.com
>To: microhydro@yahoogroups.com
>Subject: [microhydro] Re: How much power per added foot of head
>Date: Wed, 03 Dec 2003 12:27:23 -0000
>
>--- In microhydro@yahoogroups.com, "M Reed Enterprises" <mreed@m...>
>wrote:
> > I am just completing installing a crossflow turbine. The normal
> >head will be 28 feet. Pipe is 10 inches ID. I anticipate around 4 KW
> >production.
> >
> > Part of the time the head will increase by a foot or two. Can
> >somebody tell me what such head increases will add to my KW
> >production?
>
>The simple formula is P=10xQxH where P is power in watts, Q is flow
>in litres/sec and H is head in metres
>Thus P is proportional to head, assuming constant flow.
>Thus power should be 29/28 * 4Kw =  4142 Watts
>
>If this is wrong Im sure someone will post a correction
>
>David
>
Just about right,
Only Q will increase slightly as well, as Jet velocity increases with
pressure. However, head losses may also increase depending on how close to
optimum size the penstock is!!


>

_________________________________________________________________
Get Hotmail on your mobile phone http://www.msn.co.uk/msnmobile

It has always been my experience that people who are secure in themselves and
confident in their abilities are willing to share information.

I am wondering what happens with all the pearls of wisdom gained from this
forum? Do some people store them away and pretend they have somehow added to
their "propietary information"?

What a wank!

There is no scarcity in this world other than that we create ourselves


EDDY CASARES <gulfatlan@...> wrote:
Unbelievable that anyone would dare to request such information.

I would understand a forum on small hydros for  home applictation as most of
the messages one sees in this group.  But having a designer, manufacturer or
what have you, release propietary information of this sort and magnitude it
would be totally absurd.

This person in Central America.  Would he need free money as well to startr
his business?  I anyone knows about these sources of information, please let
me know also and let us stand in line for all these freebes.

Eddy Casares
----- Original Message -----
From: "Wim Klunne" <wim.klunne@...>
To: "microhydro eGroup" <microhydro@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, November 25, 2003 10:43 AM
Subject: [microhydro] blue prints Pelton / Francis turbines


> Dear all,
>
> I have been contacted by someone who is looking into the possibility of
> local production of Pelton and/or Francis turbines in Central America.
> Could anyone help him on good blue prints on how to do this?
>
> Kind regards,
>
>
> Wim
>
>     =================================================
>     ir W.E. Klunne
>     consultant sustainable energy and climate change
>     P.O. Box 420 · 7500 AK Enschede · the Netherlands
>
>     telephone South Africa: +27 83 4217914
>     telephone the Netherlands: +31 6 28964969
>     fax: +1 360 3432421 (to be delivered by e-mail)
>
>     e-mail:            wim.klunne@...
>     microhydro portal:     http://microhydropower.net
>     personal pages: http://microhydropower.net/klunne
>     =================================================
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Does your company feature in the microhydro business directory at
http://microhydropower.net/directory ? If not, please register free of
charge and be exposed to the microhydro community world wide!
>
> NOTE: The advertisements in this email are added by Yahoogroups who
provides us with free email group services. The microhydro-group does not
endorse products or support the advertisements in any way.
>
> More information on micro hydropower at http://microhydropower.net
>
> To unsubscribe: send empty message to
microhydro-unsubscribe@YahooGroups.com
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>



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with free email group services. The microhydro-group does not endorse products
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Best regards

Alistair J. Wait

NZ Tel +64 9 6223544,

India +91 98250 47626.

Fiji +67 9 9262896

www.intandem.co.nz



---------------------------------
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Free Pop-Up Blocker - Get it now

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hi All. I run a small website catering to DIY Alternate energy type
people. I have been trying to find a source for small hydro parts
and pieces, my users can construction, small working/educational
Hyrdo generators. Would anyone know where I can purchase various
parts and piece's which I can offer for sale on my site? Any help
would be appreciated.

Dennis
dennis@...
www.altenergyhobbystore.com

Hi Ron,

Considering these are graduating mechanical engineers you should make
them get their hands dirty.

How about a re-run of the student engineering project detailed in the
files section "Autodidactics/bulletin25_scan.pdf".  But with
efficiency updates from recent publications.

You should include comprehensive design reference matial that they
can really use (and take with them); turbin design, electical
circuits, adapting automotive alternators and pumps to turbines,
etc...

The most thrilling thing for a young engineer is to use their
education to make something real.

Good luck - ap

--- In microhydro@yahoogroups.com, Ron and Diane <cnsorata@c...>
wrote:
>   Dec. 3, 2003
>
>   Hello All,
>
>      We are soon to give a course in microhydropower for graduating
> Bolivian mechanical engineers who will be spending an obligatory
year in
> the rural area trying share useful knowledge.
>    We would lke to hear from any members who have ideas as to what
could be
> taught along these lines that would be truely helpful.
>   There is a great deal of both small and large scale hydro
potential here.
>  We would like ideas that would help people use waterpower for rural
> production rather than supplying electricity to off the grid middle
class
> homes.
>
>      Ron Davis www.watermotor.net

Thomas,
Thanks for your response to Mr. Casares.  I too think his reaction was
out of line.  This forum is a place to share information and promote
microhydro.  Only with the generous sharing of information, and yes,
even designs, will global microhydro reach it's full potential and as
a result, generate maximum business for professional suppliers.

I have great admiration for those in this group who freely share their
expertise.  However, I have also run into, as you say, "big
secretiveness, especially from people who are dealing with this topics
professionally".  I have an unusual application involving a very high
head (750 feet), low flow, site with the desire to drive a grid tied
induction generator.  The bulk of the "home scale" Pelton systems
won't support the high head of my site, while the fully professional,
stainless Pelton runners, are only produced for much higher power
output.  In order to design and source a suitable system, I have
needed to ask lots of technical questions.  Most people in this group
have been exceptionally helpful.  However, others appear helpful, but
as soon a detailed specifics are requested, communication stops.  I
had one manufacturer who told me he would "make me an offer I could
not refuse", then when ask for the specifics, he refused to answer my
questions or email. After several attempts I gave up.

Good customer relations are important for any product but especially
in a technology such as microhydro where a customer/user must be
highly educated to successfully apply the available products.
Customer loyalty is established by generosity of information, not
stingyness.  A store that sends me to a competitor when they don't
have what I need, wins my loyalty and business.  The same good manners
apply in microhydro also.  Three cheers to those who have responded
helpfully to Win Klunne's request!

Dane Rogers


--- In microhydro@yahoogroups.com, Köhli Thomas <thomaskoehli@y...> wrote:
> Dear EDDY CASARES
>
> unbelievable that someones answer is in such a way, it
> seems that construction design of Pelton and Francis
> runners is something like a holy grail for them who
> know how to. And another comment I would like to
> place: there are no stupid or daring questions, only
> stupid answers. Do you really think that all of this
> runner manufacturers out there started from scratch
> with their runner designs? They picked up their first
> toughts from sources to which they had access to and
> from there, they started to improve their design. I
> asume that the requester for blue prints did not
> expect to get the latest and sophisticated editions of
> designs. but when he already gets some of this sources
> to which others had access to, he will be already very
> happy. And nowbody said that he wouldn't be willing to
> pay for this informations or to make license
> agreements.
> Your reaction shows in a very decriptive way the
> attitude of some individuals in the microhydro scene
> how I do experience it. I lot of well meant advices,
> but when it comes to the point, big secretiveness,
> especially from people who are dealing with this
> topics professionaly. It is not meant that they give
> away their newest knowledge, but basic knowledge, why
> not? When you compare, there are a lot of very good
> hints and knows about crossflow turbines and howdos
> for piping out there. This informations are provided
> by individuals with a lot of idealism, people who
> deserve our respect. Why not about pelton, kaplan and
> francis?
> I should stop my fervor now.
> But I would like to give you the link to a research
> center from which you can buy blueprints for Peltons
> with guaranteed efficiency.
>
> http://www.mhylab.com/wwwmhylab/index.htm
>
> unfortunately, for English speaking people, all is
> written in French. however, contact them under
> info@m...
>
> They are also in progress to develop a Kaplan turbine.
>
> http://www.iskb.ch/mhylab.htm
>
>
http://www.romande-energie.ch/wwwromande/pages/groupe/techno_recherche.asp
>
>
> with best regards
>
> Thomas Köhli
>
>
>
>
>
>
>  <gulfatlan@w...> schrieb: > Unbelievable
> that anyone would dare to request such
> > information.
> >
> > I would understand a forum on small hydros for  home
> > applictation as most of
> > the messages one sees in this group.  But having a
> > designer, manufacturer or
> > what have you, release propietary information of
> > this sort and magnitude it
> > would be totally absurd.
> >
> > This person in Central America.  Would he need free
> > money as well to startr
> > his business?  I anyone knows about these sources of
> > information, please let
> > me know also and let us stand in line for all these
> > freebes.
> >
> > Eddy Casares
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Wim Klunne" <wim.klunne@m...>
> > To: "microhydro eGroup" <microhydro@yahoogroups.com>
> > Sent: Tuesday, November 25, 2003 10:43 AM
> > Subject: [microhydro] blue prints Pelton / Francis
> > turbines
> >
> >
> > > Dear all,
> > >
> > > I have been contacted by someone who is looking
> > into the possibility of
> > > local production of Pelton and/or Francis turbines
> > in Central America.
> > > Could anyone help him on good blue prints on how
> > to do this?
> > >
> > > Kind regards,
> > >
> > >
> > > Wim
> > >
> > >
> > =================================================
> > >     ir W.E. Klunne
> > >     consultant sustainable energy and climate
> > change
> > >     P.O. Box 420 · 7500 AK Enschede · the
> > Netherlands
> > >
> > >     telephone South Africa: +27 83 4217914
> > >     telephone the Netherlands: +31 6 28964969
> > >     fax: +1 360 3432421 (to be delivered by
> > e-mail)
> > >
> > >     e-mail:
> > wim.klunne@m...
> > >     microhydro portal:
> > http://microhydropower.net
> > >     personal pages:
> > http://microhydropower.net/klunne
> > >
> > =================================================
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Does your company feature in the microhydro
> > business directory at
> > http://microhydropower.net/directory ? If not,
> > please register free of
> > charge and be exposed to the microhydro community
> > world wide!
> > >
> > > NOTE: The advertisements in this email are added
> > by Yahoogroups who
> > provides us with free email group services. The
> > microhydro-group does not
> > endorse products or support the advertisements in
> > any way.
> > >
> > > More information on micro hydropower at
> > http://microhydropower.net
> > >
> > > To unsubscribe: send empty message to
> > microhydro-unsubscribe@Y...
> > >
> > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
>
> __________________________________________________________________
>
> Gesendet von Yahoo! Mail - http://mail.yahoo.de
> Logos und Klingeltöne fürs Handy bei http://sms.yahoo.de

Hi All,

If you live in NZ, we are planning workshops for the new year on how to
build you own Pelton Turbine, the workshop includes all the parts required
and you leave with a finished turbine unit all ready to go for your site. We
hope to repeat this with a wind turbine workshop later in the year. This
will be held at our RE powered workshop outside New Plymouth.

My experience with RE is the more systems that are installed the more work
you end up with. What tends to happen is you get one property off the
ground, this make the neighbors think about it, they cannot live with their
neighbor now having free power it makes too much good sense (nothing of
course is free) and then they go ahead with a system. I'm very open about
what we do, and actively encourage those who have the necessary skills to
give it a go. We hope to sell our water turbines in kitset form shortly for
exactly this market, lets face it -  many people in RE are very practical
intelligent individuals who with a bit of guidance can make an excellent job
of it.

Clearly I can only do this if I make money from it, most people do not want
to set up business making turbines using your ideas, they want to save money
and live a cleaner lifestyle with less reliance on fossil fuels. They also
want to fully understand the product so they can maintain and fix it. If you
wanted to copy ideas you could just buy the product. When I worked in the UK
striping down competitors products and having a good look was quite normal,
and it is the practice in most businesses subject to intense competition.
Not quite the same in the RE industry, the market is very small but growing.



Regards


Michael Lawley
EcoInnovation

----- Original Message -----
From: Alistair J. Wait <alistair_wait@...>
To: <microhydro@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, December 05, 2003 8:11 AM
Subject: Re: [microhydro] blue prints Pelton / Francis turbines


It has always been my experience that people who are secure in themselves
and confident in their abilities are willing to share information.

I am wondering what happens with all the pearls of wisdom gained from this
forum? Do some people store them away and pretend they have somehow added to
their "propietary information"?

What a wank!

There is no scarcity in this world other than that we create ourselves


EDDY CASARES <gulfatlan@...> wrote:
Unbelievable that anyone would dare to request such information.

I would understand a forum on small hydros for  home applictation as most of
the messages one sees in this group.  But having a designer, manufacturer or
what have you, release propietary information of this sort and magnitude it
would be totally absurd.

This person in Central America.  Would he need free money as well to startr
his business?  I anyone knows about these sources of information, please let
me know also and let us stand in line for all these freebes.

Eddy Casares
----- Original Message -----
From: "Wim Klunne" <wim.klunne@...>
To: "microhydro eGroup" <microhydro@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, November 25, 2003 10:43 AM
Subject: [microhydro] blue prints Pelton / Francis turbines


> Dear all,
>
> I have been contacted by someone who is looking into the possibility of
> local production of Pelton and/or Francis turbines in Central America.
> Could anyone help him on good blue prints on how to do this?
>
> Kind regards,
>
>
> Wim
>
>     =================================================
>     ir W.E. Klunne
>     consultant sustainable energy and climate change
>     P.O. Box 420 · 7500 AK Enschede · the Netherlands
>
>     telephone South Africa: +27 83 4217914
>     telephone the Netherlands: +31 6 28964969
>     fax: +1 360 3432421 (to be delivered by e-mail)
>
>     e-mail:            wim.klunne@...
>     microhydro portal:     http://microhydropower.net
>     personal pages: http://microhydropower.net/klunne
>     =================================================
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Does your company feature in the microhydro business directory at
http://microhydropower.net/directory ? If not, please register free of
charge and be exposed to the microhydro community world wide!
>
> NOTE: The advertisements in this email are added by Yahoogroups who
provides us with free email group services. The microhydro-group does not
endorse products or support the advertisements in any way.
>
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>
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>
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>
>



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I like your idealistic point of view. However, proprietary information is
part of rational business. Thinking that it should be revealed is tantamount
to believing it is okay to violate a patent.

Mike
----- Original Message -----
From: "Alistair J. Wait" <alistair_wait@...>
To: <microhydro@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2003 11:11 AM
Subject: Re: [microhydro] blue prints Pelton / Francis turbines


> It has always been my experience that people who are secure in themselves
and confident in their abilities are willing to share information.
>
> I am wondering what happens with all the pearls of wisdom gained from this
forum? Do some people store them away and pretend they have somehow added to
their "propietary information"?
>
> What a wank!
>
> There is no scarcity in this world other than that we create ourselves
>
>
> EDDY CASARES <gulfatlan@...> wrote:
> Unbelievable that anyone would dare to request such information.
>
> I would understand a forum on small hydros for  home applictation as most
of
> the messages one sees in this group.  But having a designer, manufacturer
or
> what have you, release propietary information of this sort and magnitude
it
> would be totally absurd.
>
> This person in Central America.  Would he need free money as well to
startr
> his business?  I anyone knows about these sources of information, please
let
> me know also and let us stand in line for all these freebes.
>
> Eddy Casares
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Wim Klunne" <wim.klunne@...>
> To: "microhydro eGroup" <microhydro@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Tuesday, November 25, 2003 10:43 AM
> Subject: [microhydro] blue prints Pelton / Francis turbines
>
>
> > Dear all,
> >
> > I have been contacted by someone who is looking into the possibility of
> > local production of Pelton and/or Francis turbines in Central America.
> > Could anyone help him on good blue prints on how to do this?
> >
> > Kind regards,
> >
> >
> > Wim
> >
> >     =================================================
> >     ir W.E. Klunne
> >     consultant sustainable energy and climate change
> >     P.O. Box 420 · 7500 AK Enschede · the Netherlands
> >
> >     telephone South Africa: +27 83 4217914
> >     telephone the Netherlands: +31 6 28964969
> >     fax: +1 360 3432421 (to be delivered by e-mail)
> >
> >     e-mail:            wim.klunne@...
> >     microhydro portal:     http://microhydropower.net
> >     personal pages: http://microhydropower.net/klunne
> >     =================================================
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Does your company feature in the microhydro business directory at
> http://microhydropower.net/directory ? If not, please register free of
> charge and be exposed to the microhydro community world wide!
> >
> > NOTE: The advertisements in this email are added by Yahoogroups who
> provides us with free email group services. The microhydro-group does not
> endorse products or support the advertisements in any way.
> >
> > More information on micro hydropower at http://microhydropower.net
> >
> > To unsubscribe: send empty message to
> microhydro-unsubscribe@YahooGroups.com
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >
>
>
>
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>
>
> Best regards
>
> Alistair J. Wait
>
> NZ Tel +64 9 6223544,
>
> India +91 98250 47626.
>
> Fiji +67 9 9262896
>
> www.intandem.co.nz
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------
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> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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>
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>
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>

>
> Van: microhydro@yahoogroups.com
> Datum: 2003/12/06 Sat PM 12:21:22 CET
> Aan: microhydro@yahoogroups.com
> Onderwerp: [microhydro] Digest Number 858
>
>
> Does your company feature in the microhydro business directory at
http://microhydropower.net/directory ? If not, please register free of charge
and be exposed to the microhydro community world wide!
>
> NOTE: The advertisements in this email are added by Yahoogroups who provides
us with free email group services. The microhydro-group does not endorse
products or support the advertisements in any way.
>
> More information on micro hydropower at http://microhydropower.net
>
> To unsubscribe: send empty message to microhydro-unsubscribe@YahooGroups.com
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> There are 7 messages in this issue.
>
> Topics in this digest:
>
>       1. Re: How much power per added foot of head
>            From: "M Reed Enterprises" <mreed@...>
>       2. Re: blue prints Pelton / Francis turbines
>            From: "Richard Drover" <drover72@...>
>       3. RE: Re: How much power per added foot of head
>            From: "Richard Drover" <drover72@...>
>       4. Re: blue prints Pelton / Francis turbines
>            From: "Alistair J. Wait" <alistair_wait@...>
>       5. Hyrdo parts
>            From: "D Baker" <dbaker@...>
>       6. Re: Mechanical Power
>            From: "puddlduk" <puddlduk@...>
>       7. Re: blue prints Pelton / Francis turbines
>            From: "Dane Rogers" <danerogers@...>
>
>
> ________________________________________________________________________
> Re : How much power per added foot of head
Dear sir,
Mister Albert MENDRET is right and your guru is wrong.
The power depends on the head and the quantity of the flow.
P=H.Q.Eff ( Eff is the overall efficiency of the system )
The quantity of the flow Q depends on the speed of the water and is equal  Q=v.S
( S is the cross-section of the tube. We assume that there are no losses in the
tube.)
The speed is equal v=(2.g.H)^0.5
The power becomes P=Eff.S.H.(2.g.H)^0.5=Eff.S.((2.g)^0.5).H^3/2
The power is depending on H^3.2 and not on H.
Greetings

ir.André Callaert
_______________________________________________________________________
>
> Message: 1
>    Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2003 08:07:23 -0800
>    From: "M Reed Enterprises" <mreed@...>
> Subject: Re: How much power per added foot of head
>
> Thank you for this.
>
> My guru and installer told me yesterday that the output would increase
proportionally. Thus, using the same numbers, I would get an additional 2/28th
of power or 286 more watts. Of course, I like your numbers better. But still
wonder who is correct.
>
> Thanks again.
>
> Mike
>   ----- Original Message -----
>   From: MENDRET Albert
>   To: microhydro@yahoogroups.com
>   Sent: Wednesday, December 03, 2003 11:59 AM
>   Subject: Re: [microhydro] How much power per added foot of head
>
>
>   hello,
>
>   The power will increase as  (H2/H1)^3/2 but to be totally true that asks to
increase speed in
>   sort  that :
>   N2/N1 = (H2/H1)^0.5
>
>
>   Example  H1 =28   P1 =4000 watts
>   H2 = 30
>   With N2/N1 =1,035
>             P2/P1  = 1.109     gives   P2 = 4436 watts
>
>   sincerely
>
>   Albert MENDRET
>   FRANCE
>
>   http://clients.newel.net/particulier/amader/
>
>
>
>
>
>
>     ----- Original Message -----
>     From: M Reed Enterprises
>     To: microhydro@yahoogroups.com
>     Sent: Tuesday, December 02, 2003 9:03 PM
>     Subject: [microhydro] How much power per added foot of head
>
>
>     I am just completing installing a crossflow turbine. The normal head will
be 28 feet. Pipe is 10 inches ID. I anticipate around 4 KW production.
>
>     Part of the time the head will increase by a foot or two. Can somebody
tell me what such head increases will add to my KW production?
>
>     Thanks.
>
>     Mike
>
>     [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>           Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
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>
>
>
>
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>   [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
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>
>
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>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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>
>
>
> ________________________________________________________________________
> ________________________________________________________________________
>
> Message: 2
>    Date: Thu, 04 Dec 2003 18:27:06 +0000
>    From: "Richard Drover" <drover72@...>
> Subject: Re: blue prints Pelton / Francis turbines
>
> Yes indeed
>
> And there is no great mystery in the Pelton. Jeremy Thake's excellent book,
> 'The Pelton Design Manual' explains the subject well and provides plans.
>
>
> >From: Köhli Thomas <thomaskoehli@...>
> >Reply-To: microhydro@yahoogroups.com
> >To: microhydro@yahoogroups.com
> >Subject: Re: [microhydro] blue prints Pelton / Francis turbines
> >Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2003 12:06:40 +0100 (CET)
> >
> >Dear EDDY CASARES
> >
> >unbelievable that someones answer is in such a way, it
> >seems that construction design of Pelton and Francis
> >runners is something like a holy grail for them who
> >know how to. And another comment I would like to
> >place: there are no stupid or daring questions, only
> >stupid answers. Do you really think that all of this
> >runner manufacturers out there started from scratch
> >with their runner designs? They picked up their first
> >toughts from sources to which they had access to and
> >from there, they started to improve their design. I
> >asume that the requester for blue prints did not
> >expect to get the latest and sophisticated editions of
> >designs. but when he already gets some of this sources
> >to which others had access to, he will be already very
> >happy. And nowbody said that he wouldn't be willing to
> >pay for this informations or to make license
> >agreements.
> >Your reaction shows in a very decriptive way the
> >attitude of some individuals in the microhydro scene
> >how I do experience it. I lot of well meant advices,
> >but when it comes to the point, big secretiveness,
> >especially from people who are dealing with this
> >topics professionaly. It is not meant that they give
> >away their newest knowledge, but basic knowledge, why
> >not? When you compare, there are a lot of very good
> >hints and knows about crossflow turbines and howdos
> >for piping out there. This informations are provided
> >by individuals with a lot of idealism, people who
> >deserve our respect. Why not about pelton, kaplan and
> >francis?
> >I should stop my fervor now.
> >But I would like to give you the link to a research
> >center from which you can buy blueprints for Peltons
> >with guaranteed efficiency.
> >
> >http://www.mhylab.com/wwwmhylab/index.htm
> >
> >unfortunately, for English speaking people, all is
> >written in French. however, contact them under
> >info@...
> >
> >They are also in progress to develop a Kaplan turbine.
> >
> >http://www.iskb.ch/mhylab.htm
> >
> >http://www.romande-energie.ch/wwwromande/pages/groupe/techno_recherche.asp
> >
> >
> >with best regards
> >
> >Thomas Köhli
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >  <gulfatlan@...> schrieb: > Unbelievable
> >that anyone would dare to request such
> > > information.
> > >
> > > I would understand a forum on small hydros for  home
> > > applictation as most of
> > > the messages one sees in this group.  But having a
> > > designer, manufacturer or
> > > what have you, release propietary information of
> > > this sort and magnitude it
> > > would be totally absurd.
> > >
> > > This person in Central America.  Would he need free
> > > money as well to startr
> > > his business?  I anyone knows about these sources of
> > > information, please let
> > > me know also and let us stand in line for all these
> > > freebes.
> > >
> > > Eddy Casares
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "Wim Klunne" <wim.klunne@...>
> > > To: "microhydro eGroup" <microhydro@yahoogroups.com>
> > > Sent: Tuesday, November 25, 2003 10:43 AM
> > > Subject: [microhydro] blue prints Pelton / Francis
> > > turbines
> > >
> > >
> > > > Dear all,
> > > >
> > > > I have been contacted by someone who is looking
> > > into the possibility of
> > > > local production of Pelton and/or Francis turbines
> > > in Central America.
> > > > Could anyone help him on good blue prints on how
> > > to do this?
> > > >
> > > > Kind regards,
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Wim
> > > >
> > > >
> > > =================================================
> > > >     ir W.E. Klunne
> > > >     consultant sustainable energy and climate
> > > change
> > > >     P.O. Box 420 · 7500 AK Enschede · the
> > > Netherlands
> > > >
> > > >     telephone South Africa: +27 83 4217914
> > > >     telephone the Netherlands: +31 6 28964969
> > > >     fax: +1 360 3432421 (to be delivered by
> > > e-mail)
> > > >
> > > >     e-mail:
> > > wim.klunne@...
> > > >     microhydro portal:
> > > http://microhydropower.net
> > > >     personal pages:
> > > http://microhydropower.net/klunne
> > > >
> > > =================================================
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Does your company feature in the microhydro
> > > business directory at
> > > http://microhydropower.net/directory ? If not,
> > > please register free of
> > > charge and be exposed to the microhydro community
> > > world wide!
> > > >
> > > > NOTE: The advertisements in this email are added
> > > by Yahoogroups who
> > > provides us with free email group services. The
> > > microhydro-group does not
> > > endorse products or support the advertisements in
> > > any way.
> > > >
> > > > More information on micro hydropower at
> > > http://microhydropower.net
> > > >
> > > > To unsubscribe: send empty message to
> > > microhydro-unsubscribe@YahooGroups.com
> > > >
> > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> > > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >__________________________________________________________________
> >
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>
> _________________________________________________________________
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>
>
>
> ________________________________________________________________________
> ________________________________________________________________________
>
> Message: 3
>    Date: Thu, 04 Dec 2003 18:35:26 +0000
>    From: "Richard Drover" <drover72@...>
> Subject: RE: Re: How much power per added foot of head
>
>
>
>
> >From: "allenderd" <allenderd@...>
> >Reply-To: microhydro@yahoogroups.com
> >To: microhydro@yahoogroups.com
> >Subject: [microhydro] Re: How much power per added foot of head
> >Date: Wed, 03 Dec 2003 12:27:23 -0000
> >
> >--- In microhydro@yahoogroups.com, "M Reed Enterprises" <mreed@m...>
> >wrote:
> > > I am just completing installing a crossflow turbine. The normal
> > >head will be 28 feet. Pipe is 10 inches ID. I anticipate around 4 KW
> > >production.
> > >
> > > Part of the time the head will increase by a foot or two. Can
> > >somebody tell me what such head increases will add to my KW
> > >production?
> >
> >The simple formula is P=10xQxH where P is power in watts, Q is flow
> >in litres/sec and H is head in metres
> >Thus P is proportional to head, assuming constant flow.
> >Thus power should be 29/28 * 4Kw =  4142 Watts
> >
> >If this is wrong Im sure someone will post a correction
> >
> >David
> >
> Just about right,
> Only Q will increase slightly as well, as Jet velocity increases with
> pressure. However, head losses may also increase depending on how close to
> optimum size the penstock is!!
>
>
> >
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Get Hotmail on your mobile phone http://www.msn.co.uk/msnmobile
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________________________________________________
> ________________________________________________________________________
>
> Message: 4
>    Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2003 11:11:50 -0800 (PST)
>    From: "Alistair J. Wait" <alistair_wait@...>
> Subject: Re: blue prints Pelton / Francis turbines
>
> It has always been my experience that people who are secure in themselves and
confident in their abilities are willing to share information.
>
> I am wondering what happens with all the pearls of wisdom gained from this
forum? Do some people store them away and pretend they have somehow added to
their "propietary information"?
>
> What a wank!
>
> There is no scarcity in this world other than that we create ourselves
>
>
> EDDY CASARES <gulfatlan@...> wrote:
> Unbelievable that anyone would dare to request such information.
>
> I would understand a forum on small hydros for  home applictation as most of
> the messages one sees in this group.  But having a designer, manufacturer or
> what have you, release propietary information of this sort and magnitude it
> would be totally absurd.
>
> This person in Central America.  Would he need free money as well to startr
> his business?  I anyone knows about these sources of information, please let
> me know also and let us stand in line for all these freebes.
>
> Eddy Casares
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Wim Klunne" <wim.klunne@...>
> To: "microhydro eGroup" <microhydro@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Tuesday, November 25, 2003 10:43 AM
> Subject: [microhydro] blue prints Pelton / Francis turbines
>
>
> > Dear all,
> >
> > I have been contacted by someone who is looking into the possibility of
> > local production of Pelton and/or Francis turbines in Central America.
> > Could anyone help him on good blue prints on how to do this?
> >
> > Kind regards,
> >
> >
> > Wim
> >
> >     =================================================
> >     ir W.E. Klunne
> >     consultant sustainable energy and climate change
> >     P.O. Box 420 · 7500 AK Enschede · the Netherlands
> >
> >     telephone South Africa: +27 83 4217914
> >     telephone the Netherlands: +31 6 28964969
> >     fax: +1 360 3432421 (to be delivered by e-mail)
> >
> >     e-mail:            wim.klunne@...
> >     microhydro portal:     http://microhydropower.net
> >     personal pages: http://microhydropower.net/klunne
> >     =================================================
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Does your company feature in the microhydro business directory at
> http://microhydropower.net/directory ? If not, please register free of
> charge and be exposed to the microhydro community world wide!
> >
> > NOTE: The advertisements in this email are added by Yahoogroups who
> provides us with free email group services. The microhydro-group does not
> endorse products or support the advertisements in any way.
> >
> > More information on micro hydropower at http://microhydropower.net
> >
> > To unsubscribe: send empty message to
> microhydro-unsubscribe@YahooGroups.com
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT
>
> Does your company feature in the microhydro business directory at
http://microhydropower.net/directory ? If not, please register free of charge
and be exposed to the microhydro community world wide!
>
> NOTE: The advertisements in this email are added by Yahoogroups who provides
us with free email group services. The microhydro-group does not endorse
products or support the advertisements in any way.
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>
> To unsubscribe: send empty message to microhydro-unsubscribe@YahooGroups.com
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
>
>
>
> Best regards
>
> Alistair J. Wait
>
> NZ Tel +64 9 6223544,
>
> India +91 98250 47626.
>
> Fiji +67 9 9262896
>
> www.intandem.co.nz
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Free Pop-Up Blocker - Get it now
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________________________________________________
> ________________________________________________________________________
>
> Message: 5
>    Date: Fri, 05 Dec 2003 04:27:15 -0000
>    From: "D Baker" <dbaker@...>
> Subject: Hyrdo parts
>
> Hi All. I run a small website catering to DIY Alternate energy type
> people. I have been trying to find a source for small hydro parts
> and pieces, my users can construction, small working/educational
> Hyrdo generators. Would anyone know where I can purchase various
> parts and piece's which I can offer for sale on my site? Any help
> would be appreciated.
>
> Dennis
> dennis@...
> www.altenergyhobbystore.com
>
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________________________________________________
> ________________________________________________________________________
>
> Message: 6
>    Date: Fri, 05 Dec 2003 17:34:05 -0000
>    From: "puddlduk" <puddlduk@...>
> Subject: Re: Mechanical Power
>
> Hi Ron,
>
> Considering these are graduating mechanical engineers you should make
> them get their hands dirty.
>
> How about a re-run of the student engineering project detailed in the
> files section "Autodidactics/bulletin25_scan.pdf".  But with
> efficiency updates from recent publications.
>
> You should include comprehensive design reference matial that they
> can really use (and take with them); turbin design, electical
> circuits, adapting automotive alternators and pumps to turbines,
> etc...
>
> The most thrilling thing for a young engineer is to use their
> education to make something real.
>
> Good luck - ap
>
> --- In microhydro@yahoogroups.com, Ron and Diane <cnsorata@c...>
> wrote:
> >   Dec. 3, 2003
> >
> >   Hello All,
> >
> >      We are soon to give a course in microhydropower for graduating
> > Bolivian mechanical engineers who will be spending an obligatory
> year in
> > the rural area trying share useful knowledge.
> >    We would lke to hear from any members who have ideas as to what
> could be
> > taught along these lines that would be truely helpful.
> >   There is a great deal of both small and large scale hydro
> potential here.
> >  We would like ideas that would help people use waterpower for rural
> > production rather than supplying electricity to off the grid middle
> class
> > homes.
> >
> >      Ron Davis www.watermotor.net
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________________________________________________
> ________________________________________________________________________
>
> Message: 7
>    Date: Fri, 05 Dec 2003 21:13:41 -0000
>    From: "Dane Rogers" <danerogers@...>
> Subject: Re: blue prints Pelton / Francis turbines
>
> Thomas,
> Thanks for your response to Mr. Casares.  I too think his reaction was
> out of line.  This forum is a place to share information and promote
> microhydro.  Only with the generous sharing of information, and yes,
> even designs, will global microhydro reach it's full potential and as
> a result, generate maximum business for professional suppliers.
>
> I have great admiration for those in this group who freely share their
> expertise.  However, I have also run into, as you say, "big
> secretiveness, especially from people who are dealing with this topics
> professionally".  I have an unusual application involving a very high
> head (750 feet), low flow, site with the desire to drive a grid tied
> induction generator.  The bulk of the "home scale" Pelton systems
> won't support the high head of my site, while the fully professional,
> stainless Pelton runners, are only produced for much higher power
> output.  In order to design and source a suitable system, I have
> needed to ask lots of technical questions.  Most people in this group
> have been exceptionally helpful.  However, others appear helpful, but
> as soon a detailed specifics are requested, communication stops.  I
> had one manufacturer who told me he would "make me an offer I could
> not refuse", then when ask for the specifics, he refused to answer my
> questions or email. After several attempts I gave up.
>
> Good customer relations are important for any product but especially
> in a technology such as microhydro where a customer/user must be
> highly educated to successfully apply the available products.
> Customer loyalty is established by generosity of information, not
> stingyness.  A store that sends me to a competitor when they don't
> have what I need, wins my loyalty and business.  The same good manners
> apply in microhydro also.  Three cheers to those who have responded
> helpfully to Win Klunne's request!
>
> Dane Rogers
>
>
> --- In microhydro@yahoogroups.com, Köhli Thomas <thomaskoehli@y...> wrote:
> > Dear EDDY CASARES
> >
> > unbelievable that someones answer is in such a way, it
> > seems that construction design of Pelton and Francis
> > runners is something like a holy grail for them who
> > know how to. And another comment I would like to
> > place: there are no stupid or daring questions, only
> > stupid answers. Do you really think that all of this
> > runner manufacturers out there started from scratch
> > with their runner designs? They picked up their first
> > toughts from sources to which they had access to and
> > from there, they started to improve their design. I
> > asume that the requester for blue prints did not
> > expect to get the latest and sophisticated editions of
> > designs. but when he already gets some of this sources
> > to which others had access to, he will be already very
> > happy. And nowbody said that he wouldn't be willing to
> > pay for this informations or to make license
> > agreements.
> > Your reaction shows in a very decriptive way the
> > attitude of some individuals in the microhydro scene
> > how I do experience it. I lot of well meant advices,
> > but when it comes to the point, big secretiveness,
> > especially from people who are dealing with this
> > topics professionaly. It is not meant that they give
> > away their newest knowledge, but basic knowledge, why
> > not? When you compare, there are a lot of very good
> > hints and knows about crossflow turbines and howdos
> > for piping out there. This informations are provided
> > by individuals with a lot of idealism, people who
> > deserve our respect. Why not about pelton, kaplan and
> > francis?
> > I should stop my fervor now.
> > But I would like to give you the link to a research
> > center from which you can buy blueprints for Peltons
> > with guaranteed efficiency.
> >
> > http://www.mhylab.com/wwwmhylab/index.htm
> >
> > unfortunately, for English speaking people, all is
> > written in French. however, contact them under
> > info@m...
> >
> > They are also in progress to develop a Kaplan turbine.
> >
> > http://www.iskb.ch/mhylab.htm
> >
> >
> http://www.romande-energie.ch/wwwromande/pages/groupe/techno_recherche.asp
> >
> >
> > with best regards
> >
> > Thomas Köhli
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >  <gulfatlan@w...> schrieb: > Unbelievable
> > that anyone would dare to request such
> > > information.
> > >
> > > I would understand a forum on small hydros for  home
> > > applictation as most of
> > > the messages one sees in this group.  But having a
> > > designer, manufacturer or
> > > what have you, release propietary information of
> > > this sort and magnitude it
> > > would be totally absurd.
> > >
> > > This person in Central America.  Would he need free
> > > money as well to startr
> > > his business?  I anyone knows about these sources of
> > > information, please let
> > > me know also and let us stand in line for all these
> > > freebes.
> > >
> > > Eddy Casares
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "Wim Klunne" <wim.klunne@m...>
> > > To: "microhydro eGroup" <microhydro@yahoogroups.com>
> > > Sent: Tuesday, November 25, 2003 10:43 AM
> > > Subject: [microhydro] blue prints Pelton / Francis
> > > turbines
> > >
> > >
> > > > Dear all,
> > > >
> > > > I have been contacted by someone who is looking
> > > into the possibility of
> > > > local production of Pelton and/or Francis turbines
> > > in Central America.
> > > > Could anyone help him on good blue prints on how
> > > to do this?
> > > >
> > > > Kind regards,
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Wim
> > > >
> > > >
> > > =================================================
> > > >     ir W.E. Klunne
> > > >     consultant sustainable energy and climate
> > > change
> > > >     P.O. Box 420 · 7500 AK Enschede · the
> > > Netherlands
> > > >
> > > >     telephone South Africa: +27 83 4217914
> > > >     telephone the Netherlands: +31 6 28964969
> > > >     fax: +1 360 3432421 (to be delivered by
> > > e-mail)
> > > >
> > > >     e-mail:
> > > wim.klunne@m...
> > > >     microhydro portal:
> > > http://microhydropower.net
> > > >     personal pages:
> > > http://microhydropower.net/klunne
> > > >
> > > =================================================
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Does your company feature in the microhydro
> > > business directory at
> > > http://microhydropower.net/directory ? If not,
> > > please register free of
> > > charge and be exposed to the microhydro community
> > > world wide!
> > > >
> > > > NOTE: The advertisements in this email are added
> > > by Yahoogroups who
> > > provides us with free email group services. The
> > > microhydro-group does not
> > > endorse products or support the advertisements in
> > > any way.
> > > >
> > > > More information on micro hydropower at
> > > http://microhydropower.net
> > > >
> > > > To unsubscribe: send empty message to
> > > microhydro-unsubscribe@Y...
> > > >
> > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> > > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> > __________________________________________________________________
> >
> > Gesendet von Yahoo! Mail - http://mail.yahoo.de
> > Logos und Klingeltöne fürs Handy bei http://sms.yahoo.de
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________________________________________________
> ________________________________________________________________________
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>

This one is the correct one
Nando
----- Original Message -----
From: "M Reed Enterprises" <mreed@...>
To: <microhydro@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2003 10:07 AM
Subject: Re: [microhydro] How much power per added foot of head


> Thank you for this.
>
> My guru and installer told me yesterday that the output would increase
proportionally. Thus, using the same numbers, I would get an additional
2/28th of power or 286 more watts. Of course, I like your numbers better.
But still wonder who is correct.
>
> Thanks again.
>
> Mike
>   ----- Original Message -----
>   From: MENDRET Albert
>   To: microhydro@yahoogroups.com
>   Sent: Wednesday, December 03, 2003 11:59 AM
>   Subject: Re: [microhydro] How much power per added foot of head
>
>
>   hello,
>
>   The power will increase as  (H2/H1)^3/2 but to be totally true that asks
to increase speed in
>   sort  that :
>   N2/N1 = (H2/H1)^0.5
>
>
>   Example  H1 =28   P1 =4000 watts
>   H2 = 30
>   With N2/N1 =1,035
>             P2/P1  = 1.109     gives   P2 = 4436 watts
>
>   sincerely
>
>   Albert MENDRET
>   FRANCE
>
>   http://clients.newel.net/particulier/amader/
>
>
>
>
>
>
>     ----- Original Message -----
>     From: M Reed Enterprises
>     To: microhydro@yahoogroups.com
>     Sent: Tuesday, December 02, 2003 9:03 PM
>     Subject: [microhydro] How much power per added foot of head
>
>
>     I am just completing installing a crossflow turbine. The normal head
will be 28 feet. Pipe is 10 inches ID. I anticipate around 4 KW production.
>
>     Part of the time the head will increase by a foot or two. Can somebody
tell me what such head increases will add to my KW production?
>
>     Thanks.
>
>     Mike
>
>     [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>           Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
>                 ADVERTISEMENT
>
>
>
>
>     Does your company feature in the microhydro business directory at
http://microhydropower.net/directory ? If not, please register free of
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>
>     NOTE: The advertisements in this email are added by Yahoogroups who
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>
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>
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>
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>
>
>   [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
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>               ADVERTISEMENT
>
>
>
>
>   Does your company feature in the microhydro business directory at
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>
>   NOTE: The advertisements in this email are added by Yahoogroups who
provides us with free email group services. The microhydro-group does not
endorse products or support the advertisements in any way.
>
>   More information on micro hydropower at http://microhydropower.net
>
>   To unsubscribe: send empty message to
microhydro-unsubscribe@YahooGroups.com
>
>   Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>
> Does your company feature in the microhydro business directory at
http://microhydropower.net/directory ? If not, please register free of
charge and be exposed to the microhydro community world wide!
>
> NOTE: The advertisements in this email are added by Yahoogroups who
provides us with free email group services. The microhydro-group does not
endorse products or support the advertisements in any way.
>
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>
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>
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>
>

Dane;

Please place your parameters either in this forum or send them to me, I may
be able to direct you to the proper area.

Nando

----- Original Message -----
From: "Dane Rogers" <danerogers@...>
To: <microhydro@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, December 05, 2003 3:13 PM
Subject: [microhydro] Re: blue prints Pelton / Francis turbines


Thomas,
Thanks for your response to Mr. Casares.  I too think his reaction was
out of line.  This forum is a place to share information and promote
microhydro.  Only with the generous sharing of information, and yes,
even designs, will global microhydro reach it's full potential and as
a result, generate maximum business for professional suppliers.

I have great admiration for those in this group who freely share their
expertise.  However, I have also run into, as you say, "big
secretiveness, especially from people who are dealing with this topics
professionally".  I have an unusual application involving a very high
head (750 feet), low flow, site with the desire to drive a grid tied
induction generator.  The bulk of the "home scale" Pelton systems
won't support the high head of my site, while the fully professional,
stainless Pelton runners, are only produced for much higher power
output.  In order to design and source a suitable system, I have
needed to ask lots of technical questions.  Most people in this group
have been exceptionally helpful.  However, others appear helpful, but
as soon a detailed specifics are requested, communication stops.  I
had one manufacturer who told me he would "make me an offer I could
not refuse", then when ask for the specifics, he refused to answer my
questions or email. After several attempts I gave up.

Good customer relations are important for any product but especially
in a technology such as microhydro where a customer/user must be
highly educated to successfully apply the available products.
Customer loyalty is established by generosity of information, not
stingyness.  A store that sends me to a competitor when they don't
have what I need, wins my loyalty and business.  The same good manners
apply in microhydro also.  Three cheers to those who have responded
helpfully to Win Klunne's request!

Dane Rogers


--- In microhydro@yahoogroups.com, Köhli Thomas <thomaskoehli@y...> wrote:
> Dear EDDY CASARES
>
> unbelievable that someones answer is in such a way, it
> seems that construction design of Pelton and Francis
> runners is something like a holy grail for them who
> know how to. And another comment I would like to
> place: there are no stupid or daring questions, only
> stupid answers. Do you really think that all of this
> runner manufacturers out there started from scratch
> with their runner designs? They picked up their first
> toughts from sources to which they had access to and
> from there, they started to improve their design. I
> asume that the requester for blue prints did not
> expect to get the latest and sophisticated editions of
> designs. but when he already gets some of this sources
> to which others had access to, he will be already very
> happy. And nowbody said that he wouldn't be willing to
> pay for this informations or to make license
> agreements.
> Your reaction shows in a very decriptive way the
> attitude of some individuals in the microhydro scene
> how I do experience it. I lot of well meant advices,
> but when it comes to the point, big secretiveness,
> especially from people who are dealing with this
> topics professionaly. It is not meant that they give
> away their newest knowledge, but basic knowledge, why
> not? When you compare, there are a lot of very good
> hints and knows about crossflow turbines and howdos
> for piping out there. This informations are provided
> by individuals with a lot of idealism, people who
> deserve our respect. Why not about pelton, kaplan and
> francis?
> I should stop my fervor now.
> But I would like to give you the link to a research
> center from which you can buy blueprints for Peltons
> with guaranteed efficiency.
>
> http://www.mhylab.com/wwwmhylab/index.htm
>
> unfortunately, for English speaking people, all is
> written in French. however, contact them under
> info@m...
>
> They are also in progress to develop a Kaplan turbine.
>
> http://www.iskb.ch/mhylab.htm
>
>
http://www.romande-energie.ch/wwwromande/pages/groupe/techno_recherche.asp
>
>
> with best regards
>
> Thomas Köhli
>
>
>
>
>
>
>  <gulfatlan@w...> schrieb: > Unbelievable
> that anyone would dare to request such
> > information.
> >
> > I would understand a forum on small hydros for  home
> > applictation as most of
> > the messages one sees in this group.  But having a
> > designer, manufacturer or
> > what have you, release propietary information of
> > this sort and magnitude it
> > would be totally absurd.
> >
> > This person in Central America.  Would he need free
> > money as well to startr
> > his business?  I anyone knows about these sources of
> > information, please let
> > me know also and let us stand in line for all these
> > freebes.
> >
> > Eddy Casares
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Wim Klunne" <wim.klunne@m...>
> > To: "microhydro eGroup" <microhydro@yahoogroups.com>
> > Sent: Tuesday, November 25, 2003 10:43 AM
> > Subject: [microhydro] blue prints Pelton / Francis
> > turbines
> >
> >
> > > Dear all,
> > >
> > > I have been contacted by someone who is looking
> > into the possibility of
> > > local production of Pelton and/or Francis turbines
> > in Central America.
> > > Could anyone help him on good blue prints on how
> > to do this?
> > >
> > > Kind regards,
> > >
> > >
> > > Wim
> > >
> > >
> > =================================================
> > >     ir W.E. Klunne
> > >     consultant sustainable energy and climate
> > change
> > >     P.O. Box 420 · 7500 AK Enschede · the
> > Netherlands
> > >
> > >     telephone South Africa: +27 83 4217914
> > >     telephone the Netherlands: +31 6 28964969
> > >     fax: +1 360 3432421 (to be delivered by
> > e-mail)
> > >
> > >     e-mail:
> > wim.klunne@m...
> > >     microhydro portal:
> > http://microhydropower.net
> > >     personal pages:
> > http://microhydropower.net/klunne
> > >
> > =================================================
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Does your company feature in the microhydro
> > business directory at
> > http://microhydropower.net/directory ? If not,
> > please register free of
> > charge and be exposed to the microhydro community
> > world wide!
> > >
> > > NOTE: The advertisements in this email are added
> > by Yahoogroups who
> > provides us with free email group services. The
> > microhydro-group does not
> > endorse products or support the advertisements in
> > any way.
> > >
> > > More information on micro hydropower at
> > http://microhydropower.net
> > >
> > > To unsubscribe: send empty message to
> > microhydro-unsubscribe@Y...
> > >
> > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
>
> __________________________________________________________________
>
> Gesendet von Yahoo! Mail - http://mail.yahoo.de
> Logos und Klingeltöne fürs Handy bei http://sms.yahoo.de




Does your company feature in the microhydro business directory at
http://microhydropower.net/directory ? If not, please register free of
charge and be exposed to the microhydro community world wide!

NOTE: The advertisements in this email are added by Yahoogroups who provides
us with free email group services. The microhydro-group does not endorse
products or support the advertisements in any way.

More information on micro hydropower at http://microhydropower.net

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Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

My formules are strictly correct

They are based on similitude hydraulic laws

Only note that this good  result id got if you have  modify the speed in
proportion (H2/H1) ^0,5

If N does not change then  Q  change very few anf your guru and installer said 
almost right

You have to know that for a designed wheel  Q is always proportionnal to N

Other note  :  changing speed will keep the efficiency of the turbin , but that
change is not easy if the generator is a synchronous machine

sincerely

A MENDRET

   ----- Original Message -----
   From: M Reed Enterprises
   To: microhydro@yahoogroups.com
   Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2003 5:07 PM
   Subject: Re: [microhydro] How much power per added foot of head


   Thank you for this.

   My guru and installer told me yesterday that the output would increase
proportionally. Thus, using the same numbers, I would get an additional 2/28th
of power or 286 more watts. Of course, I like your numbers better. But still
wonder who is correct.

   Thanks again.

   Mike
     ----- Original Message -----
     From: MENDRET Albert
     To: microhydro@yahoogroups.com
     Sent: Wednesday, December 03, 2003 11:59 AM
     Subject: Re: [microhydro] How much power per added foot of head


     hello,

     The power will increase as  (H2/H1)^3/2 but to be totally true that asks to
increase speed in
     sort  that :
     N2/N1 = (H2/H1)^0.5


     Example  H1 =28   P1 =4000 watts
     H2 = 30
     With N2/N1 =1,035
               P2/P1  = 1.109     gives   P2 = 4436 watts

     sincerely

     Albert MENDRET
     FRANCE

     http://clients.newel.net/particulier/amader/






       ----- Original Message -----
       From: M Reed Enterprises
       To: microhydro@yahoogroups.com
       Sent: Tuesday, December 02, 2003 9:03 PM
       Subject: [microhydro] How much power per added foot of head


       I am just completing installing a crossflow turbine. The normal head will
be 28 feet. Pipe is 10 inches ID. I anticipate around 4 KW production.

       Part of the time the head will increase by a foot or two. Can somebody
tell me what such head increases will add to my KW production?

       Thanks.

       Mike

       [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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     [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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