I made a small electronic device to help me measure the force,
giving the rotation, after the kick. A program calculates the speed
at the rim and the rpm at the time of the kick. I have to find out
if the relay I use is fast enough. With higher speeds it will fail
but I will be happy to face the problems if my wheel is rotating too
fast.

Regards,

Eric.

Hello,

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eavogels <eric.vogels@...>

Hello Paul.

Yes, you're right about the flux movie. It's an automated process
and the idea is to have a button on my drawing program that one
could click on in order to see a movie of his designed wheel. I did
not put that on the website yet because the movie shows a perpetual
motion. If then someone builds the model he will be disappointed.
For now my program forces the wheel around in 360 degrees.

But for my own use the flux pictures and films are very useful.
As you have seen I made some models and measured a result. For every
result I have a flux picture. Since there are so little differences
in the flux pictures I decided to put the LUA script also in the
result table, along with the video clips. Now I will try to change
parameters in FEMM and compare the flux plots with the results. When
I have learned how a flux plot should look for a good result I can
automate that process as you proposed.

regards, Eric.

--- In minatowheel@yahoogroups.com, "essent321 <essent321@y...>"
<essent321@y...> wrote:
> Hi Eric,
>
> Good work here.  What I find most interesting is the flux movie
that
> you have managed to create.  (Not of course to take away from your
> experiments, which are invaluable.)  I would assume that since you
> are a programmer that you did this with Lua and automated the
whole
> thing.  Is this a good assumption?
>
> If this is so, you would then be able to do many such trials with
> different geometry.
>
> The question would then becomes how to differentiate between these
> different virtual trials.  This can be done with the torque
diagrams
> I described in another post.  Only this time the torque is
> calculated in the Post program of FEMM for each angle of
rotation.
> Then the results are summed up in the diagram I descibe.
>
> If it is an automated process, you will probably want to check to
> see if the torque differs much between intervals.  If you can't
draw
> a relatively smooth curve (if the plot points jump around too
much)
> then you will probably want to increase the resolution (so the
angle
> of rotation between each calculation will be less).
>
> You can check to see if these virtual trials work by plugging in
the
> geometries that you have already tested, even the ones that didn't
> work so well.  You should be able to see a correlation between
> torque curves and actual rotation forces you witnessed.  This is
> your verification.
>
> Once you have a tool like this, you will be able to assess
different
> geometries under criteria that matter... that is with torque...
> rather than just staring at flux maps that are difficult for
anyone
> to assess.  I would imagine that with a whole process that is
> automated you can simply leave your computer for the time it
> requires to do the work.  (The lazy man's way is often smart.)
>
> With such a process at least you will have more data (you already
> have lots of course) to make educated guesses about which is the
> next geometry to test.  With higher resolution it will also help
you
> with refining some of the details (angles and spacing and such).
>
> Thanks again for sharing your work.
>
> Paul
>
>
>
> --- In minatowheel@yahoogroups.com, "Eric <eric.vogels@t...>"
> <eric.vogels@t...> wrote:
> > 1. I did the second test listed on my test scenario (
> > http://fdp.hemsida.net/scenario/default.html ). This set-up
gives
> > more force then the first test. The spiral starts closer to the
> > centre. I uploaded the video to the files section.
> > 2. I did the first test with a flux movie. You can look at this
at
> > url http://fdp.hemsida.net/demomovie/default.html .
> > Regards, Eric.

Hi Eric,

Good work here.  What I find most interesting is the flux movie that
you have managed to create.  (Not of course to take away from your
experiments, which are invaluable.)  I would assume that since you
are a programmer that you did this with Lua and automated the whole
thing.  Is this a good assumption?

If this is so, you would then be able to do many such trials with
different geometry.

The question would then becomes how to differentiate between these
different virtual trials.  This can be done with the torque diagrams
I described in another post.  Only this time the torque is
calculated in the Post program of FEMM for each angle of rotation.
Then the results are summed up in the diagram I descibe.

If it is an automated process, you will probably want to check to
see if the torque differs much between intervals.  If you can't draw
a relatively smooth curve (if the plot points jump around too much)
then you will probably want to increase the resolution (so the angle
of rotation between each calculation will be less).

You can check to see if these virtual trials work by plugging in the
geometries that you have already tested, even the ones that didn't
work so well.  You should be able to see a correlation between
torque curves and actual rotation forces you witnessed.  This is
your verification.

Once you have a tool like this, you will be able to assess different
geometries under criteria that matter... that is with torque...
rather than just staring at flux maps that are difficult for anyone
to assess.  I would imagine that with a whole process that is
automated you can simply leave your computer for the time it
requires to do the work.  (The lazy man's way is often smart.)

With such a process at least you will have more data (you already
have lots of course) to make educated guesses about which is the
next geometry to test.  With higher resolution it will also help you
with refining some of the details (angles and spacing and such).

Thanks again for sharing your work.

Paul



--- In minatowheel@yahoogroups.com, "Eric <eric.vogels@t...>"
<eric.vogels@t...> wrote:
> 1. I did the second test listed on my test scenario (
> http://fdp.hemsida.net/scenario/default.html ). This set-up gives
> more force then the first test. The spiral starts closer to the
> centre. I uploaded the video to the files section.
> 2. I did the first test with a flux movie. You can look at this at
> url http://fdp.hemsida.net/demomovie/default.html .
> Regards, Eric.

Hello,

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eavogels <eric.vogels@...>

The test with 35 magnets gave a little bit more force then the test
with 30 magnets. Now I plan to change the angle a bit. The angle
between the magnets at the beginning of the spiral and the radius
will be 30 degrees and at the end of the spiral the angle will be 40
degrees. Let's see how this changes the results. The video is posted.
Eric.

I did a test with less magnets. The wheel does not turn. I posted
the video clip in the files section.
The next wheel will have 35 magnets.
Eric.

I did the third test with the Ultra Light Wheel. The only difference
between test 2 and test 3 is that the distance between the magnets
are equal in test 3. Wheel test 2 had the magnets closer together
where the spiral was tighter.
But the equal distance destroyed all the force. The wheel does not
turn at all!!
Next step is a wheel like test 2 but with less magnets.
More to come..
Eric.

1. I did the second test listed on my test scenario (
http://fdp.hemsida.net/scenario/default.html ). This set-up gives
more force then the first test. The spiral starts closer to the
centre. I uploaded the video to the files section.
2. I did the first test with a flux movie. You can look at this at
url http://fdp.hemsida.net/demomovie/default.html .
Regards, Eric.

When you use the drawing program at my homepage and choose for
displaying the flux density, you'l find a button above the small flux
picture called: download LUA-Script. This script should be copied to
your local PC, in a file with extension .LUA
When you there after start FEMM, you simply have to choose: File,
Open LUA script and choose for the file you just created. The script
should work because IT IS THE SAME script that makes the plot on my
web server.
Regards, Eric.

Hi Eric,

OK.  I had a look at your small wheel experiment and am very
grateful for it.  The sceptical side of me has now see that the
torque can be applied up the slope of your magnets with the rotation
in the desirable direction.

What this means is that there is something else going on.  It is
reasonable to assume that the interaction of the stator magnet with
the row of smaller magnet is causing the flux lines to distort.
Somehow the relative orientation of all the small magnets is
allowing this.  Fair enough.

So... now you have surpassed the first great hurdle.  Now we have
have to figure out how to allow the thing to reset itself.

Detail 1: The row of small magnets work together such that they form
a virtual horseshoe magnet roughly the size of the rotor itself.
Assuming your stator unipole is north, the exit pole of the
horseshoe would be south, and the entry pole of the horseshoe would
be north.  Therefore one the stator magnet leaves the row of small
magnets there is the opposite pull concerning the motion that was
gained in the row itself.  Upon leaving the stator pole is attracted
to the south pole of the horseshoe it left behind, and then it comes
into proximity with the north pole of the horseshoe which repels.

This would have also occured with the Minota wheel itself.  So they
must have done something to overcome this.

Detail 2: The fact that the wheel is only half full of magnets is
telling.  It suggests a maximum distance between horseshoe poles.
It also suggests that the end to end flux lines will move roughly
around the shaft of the rotor... the furthest possible distance from
the stator when it is on the backside rotation (away from the
magnets).

Detail 3: I am not sure if the iron on the opposite side of the
rotor from the magnets is just for weight distribution.  The iron
itself will cause a distortion in horseshoe pole to pole flux
lines.  What they may be doing is acting as a shield for these flux
lines so that they do not adversely effect the stator as it comes
back around.  That is a guess, but regardless, I suspect they have
some important function magnetically.

Detail 4: If this is a consideration you might wish to investigate,
you may have to go to ceramic magnets.  The reason... well iron has
good flux transmission characteristics.  But if you put iron on the
other side of your rare earth magnets in relative symmetry would the
weight balance?

One way to check this consideration is to do some finite element
analysis.  Eric, I noticed that you got some help a while ago
concerning how to model permanent magnets in FEMM.  I was wondering
if you could put up these FEMM files that you recieved so that
others could start to use them as well?  (in the files section here
would be grand) I would like to do some modeling myself.  I
downloaded the file at the website but it was not in FEMM format,
that I could tell.  I would appreciate your expertise in computers
very much.

Lets keep on discussing the possibilities.

Paul



--- In minatowheel@yahoogroups.com, "Eric <eric.vogels@t...>"
<eric.vogels@t...> wrote:
> I used my Ultra Light Wheel only once for making a proof of
concept
> but now I will test this small wheel with different magnet
layouts.
> The test scenario and the results are on my website
> http://fdp.hemsida.net
> Regards, Eric.

I used my Ultra Light Wheel only once for making a proof of concept
but now I will test this small wheel with different magnet layouts.
The test scenario and the results are on my website
http://fdp.hemsida.net
Regards, Eric.

Hi Paul.
I uploaded the video clips as MPG files to my website and to the
files section in this group. Hope you can see them.
I'm printing several Ultra light wheel layouts with my design
program and will test the different setups as soon as possible.
Regards, Eric.

--- In minatowheel@yahoogroups.com, "essent321 <essent321@y...>"
<essent321@y...> wrote:
>
> Wow Eric!  You are keen to have done this so fast.
>
> I took another look at the ultra light wheel page on your
website.
> I am not good at computers and for some reason these video files
did
> not play (something about not finding a method of decompression),
> whereas I was able to view the other files you had placed on the
web
> (2 and 3 wheel).
>
> Your list of to-dos and difficult measuring tasks looks good.  The
> difficulties in measuring what you have built so that you can
> compare results with different configurations is noted.  One thing
> that might be valuable in being able to discern what is happening
at
> different angle of rotation of the rotor is a static torque curve
> diagram.  This is actually quite simple to understand and apply.
>
> To make the diagram: the y-axis is torque and the x-axis is the
> angle of rotation.  You will need to plot the angle over 360
degrees
> for a full rotation.  I do not know what instruments you have
> available for measuring the torque, but since this is a static
test
> a sensitive spring scale will do.  You can measure torque by
> measuring the force of rotation TANGENT to the edge of the rotor.
>
> Basically, you will be measuring the force that tries to turn the
> rotor at different angles of rotation compared to the stator.  In
> some rotor positions this force will be positive, or wanting to
> accelerate the rotor in the correct direction.  In other positions
> this force will be negative, or wanting to decelerate the rotor.
> Simple change the rotor position and hold it still to see which
way
> it wants to push, and then attach the sensitive scale to see how
> much.  If you don't have a scale you can do this by feel to at
least
> get a map of what you have got.  This will be very valuable in
> discerning where there are trouble areas (places with large
negative
> torque).  You should be able to compare this with your models of
> flux to refine how you interpret these... what you paper designing
> means.
>
> Remember, the value that you bring to this is the hands on work
that
> you are doing.  It is very imporant.  Otherwise we are just
talking
> about imagination.
>
> This diagram is a bit of a simplification, for motion may affect
the
> results.  However even in research this type of measurement is
> valuable.  The reason is that you can see in the curve whether
there
> are over unity potentials (at least for this application with no
> power input).  If the area under the curve above the x-axis
> (summation of positive torque over a full rotation) is greater
than
> the the area under the curve below the x-axis (summation of
negative
> torque over a full rotation), then the rotor will OVERALL
> accelarate.  This measurement process take the momentum and weight
> of the rotor right out of the picture.  You will see whether it
> SHOULD keep rotating... and more importantly it will indicate the
> trouble areas to work on (eg. pre-entrance) overall there is more
> deceleration happening.
>
> Btw, before you go out and buy expensive scales for the
measurement,
> realize that rough measurements may be good enough.  Unless you
are
> are doing some doctorate research!  You would be surprised how
much
> design and measurement is done by engineers on the back of an
> envelope.
>
> Hope this help in your explorations.
> Good luck.
>
> Paul
>
>
> --- In minatowheel@yahoogroups.com, "Eric <eric.vogels@t...>"
> <eric.vogels@t...> wrote:
> > I created some photos and video clips of my experiments with the
> > Ultra Light Wheel. You can find those via my web site
> > http://fdp.hemsida.net by choosing for MAGNETIC RESEARH or by
> > choosing for the Photo albums and choose for 'Ultra light wheel'.
> > Or by clicking on the linked message in the message board on my
> site.
> > Regards,
> > Eric.

Hello,

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eavogels <eric.vogels@...>

since it only seems to work with the drivers from my camera. I have
to find anouther way to compress. The videos for wheel 2 and 3 were
made with a Siemens SX45 and they are very compressed AVI that works
with all computers. My video klip is 23 mb before compressing. I work
on it because I want you to see the video.
Greetings, Eric.

Wow Eric!  You are keen to have done this so fast.

I took another look at the ultra light wheel page on your website.
I am not good at computers and for some reason these video files did
not play (something about not finding a method of decompression),
whereas I was able to view the other files you had placed on the web
(2 and 3 wheel).

Your list of to-dos and difficult measuring tasks looks good.  The
difficulties in measuring what you have built so that you can
compare results with different configurations is noted.  One thing
that might be valuable in being able to discern what is happening at
different angle of rotation of the rotor is a static torque curve
diagram.  This is actually quite simple to understand and apply.

To make the diagram: the y-axis is torque and the x-axis is the
angle of rotation.  You will need to plot the angle over 360 degrees
for a full rotation.  I do not know what instruments you have
available for measuring the torque, but since this is a static test
a sensitive spring scale will do.  You can measure torque by
measuring the force of rotation TANGENT to the edge of the rotor.

Basically, you will be measuring the force that tries to turn the
rotor at different angles of rotation compared to the stator.  In
some rotor positions this force will be positive, or wanting to
accelerate the rotor in the correct direction.  In other positions
this force will be negative, or wanting to decelerate the rotor.
Simple change the rotor position and hold it still to see which way
it wants to push, and then attach the sensitive scale to see how
much.  If you don't have a scale you can do this by feel to at least
get a map of what you have got.  This will be very valuable in
discerning where there are trouble areas (places with large negative
torque).  You should be able to compare this with your models of
flux to refine how you interpret these... what you paper designing
means.

Remember, the value that you bring to this is the hands on work that
you are doing.  It is very imporant.  Otherwise we are just talking
about imagination.

This diagram is a bit of a simplification, for motion may affect the
results.  However even in research this type of measurement is
valuable.  The reason is that you can see in the curve whether there
are over unity potentials (at least for this application with no
power input).  If the area under the curve above the x-axis
(summation of positive torque over a full rotation) is greater than
the the area under the curve below the x-axis (summation of negative
torque over a full rotation), then the rotor will OVERALL
accelarate.  This measurement process take the momentum and weight
of the rotor right out of the picture.  You will see whether it
SHOULD keep rotating... and more importantly it will indicate the
trouble areas to work on (eg. pre-entrance) overall there is more
deceleration happening.

Btw, before you go out and buy expensive scales for the measurement,
realize that rough measurements may be good enough.  Unless you are
are doing some doctorate research!  You would be surprised how much
design and measurement is done by engineers on the back of an
envelope.

Hope this help in your explorations.
Good luck.

Paul


--- In minatowheel@yahoogroups.com, "Eric <eric.vogels@t...>"
<eric.vogels@t...> wrote:
> I created some photos and video clips of my experiments with the
> Ultra Light Wheel. You can find those via my web site
> http://fdp.hemsida.net by choosing for MAGNETIC RESEARH or by
> choosing for the Photo albums and choose for 'Ultra light wheel'.
> Or by clicking on the linked message in the message board on my
site.
> Regards,
> Eric.

I created some photos and video clips of my experiments with the
Ultra Light Wheel. You can find those via my web site
http://fdp.hemsida.net by choosing for MAGNETIC RESEARH or by
choosing for the Photo albums and choose for 'Ultra light wheel'.
Or by clicking on the linked message in the message board on my site.
Regards,
Eric.

Hello,

This email message is a notification to let you know that
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eavogels <eric.vogels@...>

Hello Paul.

Yes, words can be difficult. And since English is not my first
language (it comes after Dutch and Swedish) I guess I make things
more difficult then necessary.

For me the big magnet is the stator. Others call it exciter… now I
write this I get a good idea for my web site: an explanation for
used words. Thing like entry, exit etc..
My video with the 2 wheels shows 2 stator magnets standing
vertically. I talked about the most right placed magnet: that one
attracts.

I still have the ultra light wheel but I took out the magnets for
other tests but I will put it together again and make the video. For
me it was the proof that things can work but I went on for the big
wheel since I needed more mass and momentum. But I make it again.
There must be more to learn here. I made some models before and
measured how long the turntable rotated after I had removed the
stator magnet. This was for me the only way to measure power. But
you are right: I had to watch the results better. But now I got a
second change.

I have to bring the material into the house because it is –20
degrees Celsius in my workshop. This means that the Christmas tree
has to move out first to get the space.

I wrote to Keelynet's Jerry Decker and ask him to forward my
question about the electro magnet to Henri Curtis. Jerry answered me
that he had done that but that he understood from Henry Curtis that
no cables where attached. Henry Curtis played with the wheel himself
and should have noticed the cables. But we will see when I get the
answer.

There are more yahoo egroups about over unity. I check on:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/jlnlabs
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/hameltech
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/mag-gen

But in the first 2 groups the people are not so nice to each other
and they use often electricity in the experiments. 2 things I do not
like too much.
I never found another Minato Wheel replicator site.

Now I will rebuild my best ultra light wheel again and make a video.

Regards,

Eric.

--- In minatowheel@yahoogroups.com, "Eric <eric.vogels@t...>"
<eric.vogels@t...> wrote:
> Hi Paul.
>
> This discussion is for me very important since I am forced to
> think about my own work again and that is very useful.
> I looked at my photobook: Multi Wheel Experiment and copied the
> following phrase: `On the wheels, the north-poles are facing out.
> I get the best results when the left big magnet points North up
> and the right points South up. Strange but true.'

Words can be difficult to relate details so there may be some back
and forth here.  "Big magnet" = stator?  "right" = ?  What is a
picture that embodies what you are saying here?

> Since this was one of the first tries, one is desperately turning
> magnets over and over again until something seems to work better.
> As I see it now, those experiments were more S.M.O.T. like then
> Minato.
>
> You are also right in your question: what is the right direction.
> Well: for me, the right direction is when the spiral of magnets
> moves closer to the stator magnet while turning. But of course: I
> only have a picture with a running Minato Wheel and that does not
> say anything about the direction.
> The animated gifs on my site and on the first page of this egroup
> turn into the direction I believe is right, but as always: I'm
> open for suggestions.
>
> 1. The only wheel that clearly moved into the right direction was
> my ultra light wheel. I put a photo on the e-group website. A link
> to my table with results is:
> http://www2.hemsida.net/fdp/photobooks/results/results.htm

A few comments.

First, if you have found success in turning the wheel in the right
direction (clockwise in the photo) then you have managed to make it
turn up the slope.  This is a significant accomplishment in my
opinion, and the parts that you are having difficult with will
probably fall into line with typical engineering adjustments to your
apparatus.  Going uphill is half the battle.  The other part will be
getting the stator back through the entryway.

Please comment and correct me if I do describe what is happening
properly.

You are using an old turntable it looks like.  How much drag is
there?  Based on the "lightweight" material you are using, I would
not be surprise if much of the boost you encounter in the hallway
(between entry and exit) is dissipated.  But please comment on how
the drag feels to you.  Because of the light weight of the apparatus
you do not have much in the way of momentum to carry you through the
transition.

It would be helpful if you could make a few short videos of this
apparatus of yours, in much the same way that you did for the 2 and
3 wheel devices.  I can see so much more in moving picture, and may
be able to see something else that is relevant.

Whatever you do, don't lose the geometry of the magnets that are
working for you.  That is gold.  Instead just find a way to reduce
the drag so that it is minimal compared to the available momentum.
It shouldn't feel like there is any loss of velocity at all on the
transition... at least until it approaches the entryway, which is
the next major stumbling block.

>
> 2. I have copied more pictures to the egroup. I received the black
> and white picture ones with normal mail and I have never seen it
> somewhere on the net. The other pictures are from Keelynet (with
> permission).
>
> 3. You're right: maybe the picture is taken so that we cannot see
> a cable to the magnet in his hand so it could be a hidden electro
> magnet. But I had some correspondence with Henry Curtis (mentioned
> on Keelynet) and as an eyewitness he mentioned permanent magnets
> and not electro magnets. But I will send Henry an email with the
> question IF a cable could be hidden somewhere.

It MAY be an accident that the picture cuts off this detail, but it
is a poor one.  It leads people on… and is a tactic that is often
used with new product development… especially when investments are
involved.  The suggestion would work if you are led to assume
something without it actually being stated.

Then again, it may just be a poor accident by the photographer...

>
> Now I understand priming. The original Wheel and Calloways wheel
> started by bringing the stator magnet to the wheel but to be
> honest: these words are from one eyewitness and the builder
> (Calloway).I tried a few times to write mr. Minato a letter and I
> sent some emails. Only one letter was answered with an email:

<snip>

> If you have an idea how I can make my web site better or if you
> think that information is missing: please let me know. My designer
> skills are not developed, I'm a programmer.
>
> Regards,
>
> Eric.

Eric, is there another community of like thinkers pondering these
kinds of question on the internet – perhaps another forum?  Please
let me know... so that I might become more immersed in this type of
work and learn more.

Thanks in advance,
Paul

Having a lot of magnets close together is maybe a way to isolate the
attracting poles. Or using half horse shoe magnets so that the
attracting poles are pointing away from the wheel.
Regards,
Eric.

Hi Paul.

This discussion is for me very important since I am forced to think
about my own work again and that is very useful.
I looked at my photobook: Multi Wheel Experiment and copied the
following phrase: `On the wheels, the north-poles are facing out. I
get the best results when the left big magnet points North up and
the right points South up. Strange but true.'
Since this was one of the first tries, one is desperately turning
magnets over and over again until something seems to work better. As
I see it now, those experiments were more S.M.O.T. like then Minato.
You are also right in your question: what is the right direction.
Well: for me, the right direction is when the spiral of magnets
moves closer to the stator magnet while turning. But of course: I
only have a picture with a running Minato Wheel and that does not
say anything about the direction.
The animated gifs on my site and on the first page of this egroup
turn into the direction I believe is right, but as always: I'm open
for suggestions.

1. The only wheel that clearly moved into the right direction was my
ultra light wheel. I put a photo on the e-group website. A link to
my table with results is:
http://www2.hemsida.net/fdp/photobooks/results/results.htm

2. I have copied more pictures to the egroup. I received the black
and white picture ones with normal mail and I have never seen it
somewhere on the net. The other pictures are from Keelynet (with
permission).

3. You're right: maybe the picture is taken so that we cannot see a
cable to the magnet in his hand so it could be a hidden electro
magnet. But I had some correspondence with Henry Curtis (mentioned
on Keelynet) and as an eyewitness he mentioned permanent magnets and
not electro magnets. But I will send Henry an email with the
question IF a cable could be hidden somewhere.

Now I understand priming. The original Wheel and Calloways wheel
started by bringing the stator magnet to the wheel but to be honest:
these words are from one eyewitness and the builder (Calloway).
I tried a few times to write mr. Minato a letter and I sent some
emails. Only one letter was answered with an email:

> We have receied your letter dated Sept. 3, 2002.
>
> Mr. Minato has been asked to be in Washington State of the United
States,
> and currently he has been there.
>
> Mr. Minato has acquired 51 countries' patents of clean energy, and
the
> governor of Washington State has requested that Mr. Minato
establish our
> company's headquarters in the State of Washington.  Under the
circumstance,
> our company has worked hard in that direction.
>
> Mr. Minato's invented technology has been granted, and he has
acquired the
> world 51 countries' patents including Sweden.  And our company's
business
> strategy is that the North America is a first place our technology
is
> initiated.  Our great business has been progressed.
>
> We are sorry that we are unable to answer to your questions
propery, please
> understand our current situation.
>
> Thank you for your interest in our technology.
>

If you have an idea how I can make my web site better or if you
think that information is missing: please let me know. My designer
skills are not developed, I'm a programmer.

Regards,

Eric.

> Just for the record: The videos (2 and 3 wheel) are from my
> earlier Minato experiments. <snip> The 2 and 3
> wheel seemed to work best with attracting magnets, what maybe
> explains the missing spiral or the wrong placed spiral.

OH!  Was the stator magnet working with attraction in those videos?

Hi Eric.

Again, thank you for doing the work you have done, and for sharing
some of your work with others such as myself.  I have only recently
heard about these kinds of experiments, and even though I come from
a scientific background I do have an open mind... tagging along with
my critical thinking.

One thing I do know.  You cannot know a thing unless you have
hardware.  You have gained much valuable experience with your
efforts whether they have been successful or not.  My queries are
intending to tap your knowledge, not to suggest your work is
fallible.  As I wade into this with my curiosity at full bore, I am
grateful to talk to others such as yourself to save me time.

Because we are dealing with a technology that has already been
patented, there is no gain by being secretive imo, as some inventors
are want to do out of habit.  This *could* rather be a forum of
investigation so that we all may be able to independently repeat the
experiment with real hardware... and learn so much from it.  I
remain optimistic.

I will likely be building hardware as well, once I have some faith
in the basics.  I want to know if there are truly over-unity
potentials... with any configuration.  I am a fresh pair of eyes
with some experience in developing new concepts.  In the same
breath, I am familiar with working with technology claims that have
hidden details.  Once we discover these I am sure we will find
success... or be able to move on.

More comments below.


--- In minatowheel@yahoogroups.com, "Eric <eric.vogels@t...>"
<eric.vogels@t...> wrote:
> Hi Paul.
>
> Just for the record: The videos (2 and 3 wheel) are from my
> earlier Minato experiments. Before I knew about the spiral and
> before I had done experiments with my drawing program. The 2 and 3
> wheel seemed to work best with attracting magnets, what maybe
> explains the missing spiral or the wrong placed spiral. I feel
> that I understand more since those experiments.

As I said above, it is me who is trying to understand; I am not a
questioning of your knowledge or ability at all.

1. What I am trying to discover is IF you have, with any of your
trials, actually had the wheel turn in the other direction *with
respect to the spiral* ?

(It is strange, but I cannot find a table that I remember being in
your website the other day.  It described several trials for
different configurations you have tried and had some comments
about "turning in the wrong direction."  I am trying to understand
what this may have meant to you back then when you were learning so
much... because within it may be an important clue...  This
possibility is the source of my question.)

You see, I am wondering if the spiral is simply an energy ramp.  The
rotational direction in your video demonstrates this.  If you have
actually been able to have the wheel rotate "UP the spiral" (the
other way compared to your video) then the energy ramp concept would
not be necessary for operation... and then there are great
possibilities.

This is the KEY for me to understanding that the Minota wheel is not
simply another type of motor (and therefore without over-unity
potentials).  There is some evidence that it is, at least it is one
possible picture.

>
> The only wheel that turned with repelling magnets was the Ultra
> Light Wheel, but that one is too light to store energy in the mass.
>
> I  built wheels in different configurations: when I decided to
> test with 48 magnets I tried several angles, magnet types and in
> and out-going spiral. On the big wheels the spiral does not have
> any effect. The difference between the small and the big wheel can
> also be the power of the magnets used. Now I planned to use curved
> magnets:http://www.wondermagnet.com/dev/magnet7.html  because they
> are much strong and the curved for maybe bends away the attracting
> power between the north from the stator and the magnets on the
> wheel.

I know that patents do not always give very good details, but I am
wondering if this detail is important.  In the patent they represent
the magnets as having a rather long distance between north and south
pole.  This would be important if you want to isolate one of the
poles with distance from the stator.  The curved magnets above, as
well as the bar magnets I recently bought from Radio Shack, have a
north/south polarity that is aligned with the large faces of the
bar.  Since there is so little distance between these faces, I am
skeptical that it will be possible to isolate the attracting pole.

2. What do you think about this?

>
> The original wheel is smaller. Looking close to the photo tells
> that perhaps magnet nr 7 fits in.
> The wheel and the patent are not the same thing since the
> apparatus on the patent needs input power.

Is this the photo on the Keeley.net page you have supplied?  Is
there more information somewhere?  Btw, there is a links, photo, and
file section of this yahoo group that can be utilized to bring
people up to speed quickly.

3. What indication has their been that this apparatus used a
permanent magnet stator?  The picture I see of a spinning wheel is
simply a white box, and I can't tell if there is a wire coming from
it.  It could be an electromagnet hidden within.  Knowing how
technology is often portrayed to hide details, I would count on it.

>
> What do you mean with priming?
>

I am wondering about how velocity might impact the performance of
the machine.  Velocity should in some way alter the magnetic fields
involved.  I am wondering if this might have a beneficial effect on
overall torque.  Priming would be inputting energy to get the
wheel "up to speed".  After all, having the motor run indefinitely
at any speed with indicate over unity possibilities.  It doesn't
really have to be able to start itself for a breakthrough.  The
Darrieus wind turbine (egg beater) is but one example that needs
priming to work.

With regards,
Paul

> Regards,
>
> Eric.

Hi Paul.

Just for the record: The videos (2 and 3 wheel) are from my earlier
Minato experiments. Before I knew about the spiral and before I had
done experiments with my drawing program. The 2 and 3 wheel seemed to
work best with attracting magnets, what maybe explains the missing
spiral or the wrong placed spiral. I feel that I understand more
since those experiments.

The only wheel that turned with repelling magnets was the Ultra Light
Wheel, but that one is too light to store energy in the mass.

I  built wheels in different configurations: when I decided to test
with 48 magnets I tried several angles, magnet types and in and out-
going spiral. On the big wheels the spiral does not have any effect.
The difference between the small and the big wheel can also be the
power of the magnets used. Now I planned to use curved magnets:
http://www.wondermagnet.com/dev/magnet7.html  because they are much
strong and the curved for maybe bends away the attracting power
between the north from the stator and the magnets on the wheel.

The original wheel is smaller. Looking close to the photo tells that
perhaps magnet nr 7 fits in.
The wheel and the patent are not the same thing since the apparatus
on the patent needs input power.

What do you mean with priming?

Regards,

Eric.

Comments are inserted below.

> Hello Paul.
>
> Thank you for your kind words. I built my web site for 3 reasons.
> 1. to tell about Minato
> 2. to meet people who are interested in this technique and.
> 3. to sort out my findings.
>
> And I'm always happy when someone finds the site useful.
>
> Except for the S.M.O.T. all my experiments are based on repelling
> magnets but before a magnet starts repelling one has to push the
> magnets in place. This is the same as the little spring in a
> ballpoint. First you press and then something pops up. This is
> hardly over unity.

I understand this sentiment.  For over unity performance the
summation of the torque diagram over a full rotation would have to
be greater than zero.  While there is a "push" obviously while the
stator magnet is within the rotor magnet stream, getting into the
entryway requires overcoming an appreciable countertorque with the
first magnet.

I looked at the minota patent yesterday.  It uses a rotation sensor
and an electromagnet so that the repelling force is only applied
once the stator magnet has passed the entryway.  This way perhaps
they are able to overcome the counter torque you seem to be
encountering, by simply removing it altogether.  I say you were
encountering this countertorque because this is what I saw in your
videos (2 and 3 wheel).

>
> But what I found out while testing the Minato wheel is that it was
> possible to let a wheel turn by a repelling magnet AND having the
> next repelling magnet closer to the big `Stator' magnet.
> That's why the spiral is important. It makes it easier for the
> first magnet to `enter' the repelling field. It builds up more
> pressure and gives a `kick' to the wheel when the last magnet
> in the chain passes the `stator' magnet. The angle between the
> magnets and the radius makes the repelling power bigger or smaller
> (adjusting).

Yes, this is what I was getting at with my question.  But in your
videos the stator enters the rotor magnets when the spiral is in
close proximity to the outside of the wheel.   The exitway part of
the spiral (these are described by the motion of the wheel relative
to a stationary stator) has the magnets further further inside the
wheel - more distant from the stator.  This seems to be the opposite
of what you are describing here.

Which begs for me to ask, have you built a wheel with the magnets in
the configuration you speak of here... one that turns in the way
that is suggested (at least initially).  Does the spiral supply the
torque (like a windmill), or is it possible to configure the magnets
such that the initial spin occurs in either direction through 180
degree?

> The size of the wheel makes the mass a useful
> collector of energy to turn 180 degrees without magnets. My
> experiments with other machines showed very clearly that 360
> degrees with magnets destroys everything.  As you probably have
> seen on my site is the program: `design your wheel on-line' a nice
> tool to draw all possibilities that can be tested as long as the
> magnet is rectangular.
>
> To make a construction that allows every magnet to be adjusted is
> probably too heavy so that's why I work with polystyrene:
> It's light and easy to work with but not adjustable. My ultra
> light wheels shown a clear spin but my bigger wheels do not.
> There is no `right' way that the wheel should spin but when you
> mount only one magnet on a  wheel you can see what should be the
> right way.

Have you built a wheel that sustains itself indefinately?

One note about inertia... it might be a useful in pushing the mass
past the entryway.  The minota patent actually has an extra wheel on
top of the two rotors that would increase the inertia appreciably.
Also, have you thought about the impact of increased velocity on the
magnetic fields?  Does priming help?

> Maybe curved, strong magnets are better to use? Since I started
> working with F.E.M.M. (not easy to build that simulation into my
> drawing program) I try lots of models `on paper'.
>
> Resume:
> 1. There is no `right' way, this is depending on the angle
> between the magnets and the radius.
>
> 2. I think the spiral is import to make the entry as easy as
> possible (long distance between repelling magnets) and the exit as
> powerful as possible.
>
> Regards,
>
> Eric.

Hello Paul.

Thank you for your kind words. I built my web site for 3 reasons.
1. to tell about Minato
2. to meet people who are interested in this technique and.
3. to sort out my findings.

And I'm always happy when someone finds the site useful.

Except for the S.M.O.T. all my experiments are based on repelling
magnets but before a magnet starts repelling one has to push the
magnets in place. This is the same as the little spring in a
ballpoint. First you press and then something pops up. This is hardly
over unity.

But what I found out while testing the Minato wheel is that it was
possible to let a wheel turn by a repelling magnet AND having the
next repelling magnet closer to the big `Stator' magnet.
That's why the spiral is important. It makes it easier for the
first magnet to `enter' the repelling field. It builds up more
pressure and gives a `kick' to the wheel when the last magnet
in the
chain passes the `stator' magnet. The angle between the
magnets and
the radius makes the repelling power bigger or smaller (adjusting).
The size of the wheel makes the mass a useful collector of energy to
turn 180 degrees without magnets. My experiments with other machines
showed very clearly that 360 degrees with magnets destroys everything.
As you probably have seen on my site is the program: `design your
wheel on-line' a nice tool to draw all possibilities that can be
tested as long as the magnet is rectangular.

To make a construction that allows every magnet to be adjusted is
probably too heavy so that's why I work with polystyrene:
It's light and easy to work with but not adjustable. My ultra
light wheels shown a clear spin but my bigger wheels do not.  There
is no `right' way that the wheel should spin but when you
mount
only one magnet on a  wheel you can see what should be the right way.

Maybe curved, strong magnets are better to use? Since I started
working with F.E.M.M. (not easy to build that simulation into my
drawing program) I try lots of models `on paper'.

Resume:
1. There is no `right' way, this is depending on the angle
between
the magnets and the radius.
2. I think the spiral is import to make the entry as easy as possible
(long distance between repelling magnets) and the exit as powerful as
possible.

Regards,

Eric.

Hello Eric,

I would like to first thank you for you efforts at your web site and
obviously in your workshop in trying to rebuild the Minato Wheel.
While I was wandering the web recently I came upon this free energy
work by people who see the possibilities in the aether that have
been ignored by science for so long (magnetics, etc).

I have spent a while looking at your website and have a few
questions and comments.

1. I noticed that you had tried various configurations of geometry
and found that the wheel rotated one way or the other and this was
judged as + or - by some criteria.  What is the "right" way to
rotate and why?  This is especially poingaint since you say rotation
could be direct in either direction depending upon geometry.  Why is
one way better than another?  It the "right" way simply how the
original (Minato's) design rotated?

2. I looked at your videos of the two and three wheel version.
Thank you for that, for pictures mean so much, and speak so loudly.
It seemed that the rotation was stopped or was slowed as the excitor
magnet approached the entryway.  This made me think of WHY there is
a spiral design for the magnets in the original design.

Because this repelling and slowing force would be decreased with
increased distance from the excitor magnet, I am wondering if the
entryway should have the larger gap?  What was the purpose of the
spiral anyway?  The larger distance could very well have been
intended to reduce (by the distance squared) this offending pre-
entry repelling force.  Also, through the hallway of rotor magnets
it makes sense that the excitor magnet would BUILD UP its torque by
having the magnets get closer rather than become more distant.

It is a simple stream of logic, but I must admit that I do not have
the experience with the apparatus that you have, and I still do not
fully understand why the apparatus turns the way it does.  If some
of your trials had the apparatus turning in the opposite direction
(with reference to the spirals) then I wonder if returning to them
would also allow this entry-repulsion effect to be decreased enough
to find a positive overall propulsion effect through the full 360
degree revolution?

Just a suggestion from a mind that is coming to this idea of a
magnetic motors fresh and somewhat excited.  I am able to ask simple
questions because of it.  I do appreciate your many efforts.

I would be willing to discuss this with you futher, as I am most
interested in understanding HOW this motor works.  Your hands on
experience is invaluable.

With gratitude,

Paul

Hello everyone.

This is the first message in the e-group: The Minato Wheel.
Since some years ago I try replicating the Self-running Bicycle
wheel that Mr. Kohei Minato built and showed at The First
International New Science Symposium in Korea, 1997.
During the years I received a lot of email with supporting questions
and ideas from other explorers and I thought that I could be helpful
to have an e-group as meeting point.
Since my only intention is to replicate this wheel, my hope is that
we can work together to achieve this mission.
I hope that you want to try to be a member in this group. Every idea
and question is very welcome.
Thank you for your time.

Eric Vogels
http://fdp.hemsida.net