Mi finfine esan leginta la Xurangama Sutro!
Mi anke volan lerni Sanskritlango, sed ne havan multa Budista sutros en
Sanskritlango.

I at last finish reading the Shurangama Sutra!
I also want to learn Sanskrit, but there aren't many Buddhist sutras in
Sanskrit.

--- In mondlango@yahoogroups.com, "Ray" <rayberau@...> wrote:
>
>
> Mi ankore legan la la Sanskrita lesono en Englalango ay Cinalango ce
http://www.cttbusa.org/sanskrit/sanskrit1.asp
>
> Ji instruan Sanskritlango per ekspliko de la sutrao "sukha (felico) vati
(lando) vyuha (aranjo)" - anke nomata "Amitabha Sutra".
>
> Mi lernin ke "un, bi, tri, kwar, kwin, ses, sep, ok, nev, dek" en Sanskrit
esan "eka, dva, tri, catur, pancan, xax, saptan, axtan, navan, das'en".
>
> Ay "unu, biu, triu, kwaru, kwinu, sesu, sepu, oku, nevu, deku" en Sanskrit
esan "prathama, dvitiya, tritiya, caturthiy, pancamiy, xaxtiy, saptamiy,
axtamiy, navamiy, das'eniy."
>
> "forto" esan "bala" ay "desforto" esan "abala"
>
> Evam (tiel) maya (mi) s'rutam (audin)... ("nyo-ze-ga-mon" en Japanlango; ay en
Cinlango: ru2shi4wo3wen2)
>
> Ray
>
> --- In mondlango@yahoogroups.com, "Lee Yongxiu" <ulango_lyx@> wrote:
> >
> > I'm interested in Chan/Zen Buddhism.
> > I have read and understood the Sixth Patriarch's Dharma Jewel Platform
Sutra:
> > http://www.cttbusa.org/6patriarch/6patriarch_contents.asp
> > Now I'm reading the Shurangama Sutra :
> > http://www.cttbusa.org/shurangama1/shurangama_contents.asp
> >
> > Lee
> >
>

Dear Mondlangist friends,


Just a friendly heads-up: I've started an XMPP multi-user chat/conference with
the address mondlango@.... I think it could be fun for all of
us to put Mondlango to use in real-time conversation (or at least as close to it
as we can get).

If you have an instant messaging account through Jabber.org, Gmail (hence Google
Talk), or any other XMPP server, you can point your client to this conference
and join in. If you don't have an XMPP account of any kind, you can also use the
following URL (note that the final slash is *necessary* for this link to work!):

http://www.speeqe.com/room/mondlango@conference.jabber.org/

The Speeqe interface will log you in with a randomly chosen username, however,
so I would suggest changing it upon sign-in just so we know who's who. I'm also
happy to help with things like that.

Hope to see you there! I'll be logged in as "marcyo"!

_____

Dera amikos Mondlangista,


Amika konigo: mi startin multusanta cateyo kum la webadreso
mondlango@.... Mi kredan ke mu amuzisuz per usi Mondlango en
konverso "realtempa" (or preske "realtempa").

Se iu havan tuymesaja konto ce Jabber.org, Gmail (ay tiel Google Talk), or iu
ayn servilo XMPP-a, li simple povuz direkti lia mesajkliento al ci tiu cateyo ay
ensaluti. Se iu ne havan iu ayn XMPP-konto, do li povuz uzi ci tiu webeyo
(observez: ci tiu ligilo *devegan* havi la fina slaxo):

http://www.speeqe.com/room/mondlango@conference.jabber.org/

La interfasilo de Speeqe ensalutizon yim kum cansa usantnomo, tamen, do mi
sugestuz canji jim kiam yi ensalutan simple pro ke ni konizan un al la alia.
Anke mi povan helpi kun tia aferos.

Mi ege esperan ke mi vidon yim tie! Mi ensalutin az "marcyo"!


Amike,

Marcyo G.

Sorry! That jabber address, for those who have an XMPP client, is mondlango <at>
jabber.org.

Pardonez mim! Tiu adreso jabber-a, por ciu kiu havan XMPP softwaro, esin
mondlango <ce> jabber.org.

--- In mondlango@yahoogroups.com, Marĉjo <codename_gimmick@...> wrote:
>
> Dear Mondlangist friends,
>
>
> Just a friendly heads-up: I've started an XMPP multi-user chat/conference with
the address mondlango@... I think it could be fun for all of us to put Mondlango
to use in real-time conversation (or at least as close to it as we can get).
>
> If you have an instant messaging account through Jabber.org, Gmail (hence
Google Talk), or any other XMPP server, you can point your client to this
conference and join in. If you don't have an XMPP account of any kind, you can
also use the following URL (note that the final slash is *necessary* for this
link to work!):
>
> http://www.speeqe.com/room/mondlango@.../
>
> The Speeqe interface will log you in with a randomly chosen username, however,
so I would suggest changing it upon sign-in just so we know who's who. I'm also
happy to help with things like that.
>
> Hope to see you there! I'll be logged in as "marcyo"!
>
> _____
>
> Dera amikos Mondlangista,
>
>
> Amika konigo: mi startin multusanta cateyo kum la webadreso mondlango@... Mi
kredan ke mu amuzisuz per usi Mondlango en konverso "realtempa" (or preske
"realtempa").
>
> Se iu havan tuymesaja konto ce Jabber.org, Gmail (ay tiel Google Talk), or iu
ayn servilo XMPP-a, li simple povuz direkti lia mesajkliento al ci tiu cateyo ay
ensaluti. Se iu ne havan iu ayn XMPP-konto, do li povuz uzi ci tiu webeyo
(observez: ci tiu ligilo *devegan* havi la fina slaxo):
>
> http://www.speeqe.com/room/mondlango@.../
>
> La interfasilo de Speeqe ensalutizon yim kum cansa usantnomo, tamen, do mi
sugestuz canji jim kiam yi ensalutan simple pro ke ni konizan un al la alia.
Anke mi povan helpi kun tia aferos.
>
> Mi ege esperan ke mi vidon yim tie! Mi ensalutin az "marcyo"!
>
>
> Amike,
>
> Marcyo G.
>

Ugh. That's *still* the wrong address. The JID for Jabber users (and the end of
the URL for web users) is mondlango@.... The word "conference"
and a dot must precede "jabber" in the JID of the room.

Sorry again. If any of you are trying to log in, this should definitely fix it.

--- In mondlango@yahoogroups.com, Marĉjo <codename_gimmick@...> wrote:
>
>
>
> Sorry! That jabber address, for those who have an XMPP client, is mondlango
<at> jabber.org.
>
> Pardonez mim! Tiu adreso jabber-a, por ciu kiu havan XMPP softwaro, esin
mondlango <ce> jabber.org.
>
> --- In mondlango@yahoogroups.com, Marĉjo <codename_gimmick@> wrote:
> >
> > Dear Mondlangist friends,
> >
> >
> > Just a friendly heads-up: I've started an XMPP multi-user chat/conference
with the address mondlango@ I think it could be fun for all of us to put
Mondlango to use in real-time conversation (or at least as close to it as we can
get).
> >
> > If you have an instant messaging account through Jabber.org, Gmail (hence
Google Talk), or any other XMPP server, you can point your client to this
conference and join in. If you don't have an XMPP account of any kind, you can
also use the following URL (note that the final slash is *necessary* for this
link to work!):
> >
> > http://www.speeqe.com/room/mondlango@/
> >
> > The Speeqe interface will log you in with a randomly chosen username,
however, so I would suggest changing it upon sign-in just so we know who's who.
I'm also happy to help with things like that.
> >
> > Hope to see you there! I'll be logged in as "marcyo"!
> >
> > _____
> >
> > Dera amikos Mondlangista,
> >
> >
> > Amika konigo: mi startin multusanta cateyo kum la webadreso mondlango@ Mi
kredan ke mu amuzisuz per usi Mondlango en konverso "realtempa" (or preske
"realtempa").
> >
> > Se iu havan tuymesaja konto ce Jabber.org, Gmail (ay tiel Google Talk), or
iu ayn servilo XMPP-a, li simple povuz direkti lia mesajkliento al ci tiu cateyo
ay ensaluti. Se iu ne havan iu ayn XMPP-konto, do li povuz uzi ci tiu webeyo
(observez: ci tiu ligilo *devegan* havi la fina slaxo):
> >
> > http://www.speeqe.com/room/mondlango@/
> >
> > La interfasilo de Speeqe ensalutizon yim kum cansa usantnomo, tamen, do mi
sugestuz canji jim kiam yi ensalutan simple pro ke ni konizan un al la alia.
Anke mi povan helpi kun tia aferos.
> >
> > Mi ege esperan ke mi vidon yim tie! Mi ensalutin az "marcyo"!
> >
> >
> > Amike,
> >
> > Marcyo G.
> >
>

La 25-a de marto, Liang Zhenying (Leung Chun-ying) esin elektita kiel la cefa
administra oficisto de Hongkong.

On March 25th, Leung Chun-ying was elected as the Chief Executive of the
Hongkong Special Administrative Region of China.

Mi jus tildatizin la Etendita Monda-Engla Wordaro ay epcarjin ji al la FILES
fako de ci tiu forumo. La cefa canjo esin procesi monda wordos kiu komencan kum
la litero 'B' ay anke la wordos kiu enhavan radikos kiu komencan kum 'B'.  La
tildatizo anke enhavan iu plua canjos ay aldonacos, krom dismulta korektos.  La
konforma Etendita Engla-Monda Wordaro esin tildatazin sekwe.

I have just updated the Extended Monda-English Wordaro and uploaded it to the
FILES section of this forum.  The main change has been to process Monda words
beginning with the letter 'B' and also words containing roots beginning with
'B'.  The update also includes some further changes and additions, as well as a
few corrections.  The corresponding Extended English-Monda Wordaro has also been
updated accordingly.


La Wordaros esan nun tro biga por epcarji kiel un faylo.  Tial, oni splitin ciu
Wordaro alen bi faylos, kum hedwordos komencanta kum literos A-G ay H-Z
respekte.

The Wordaros are now too large to upload as one file.  Therefore, each Wordaro
has been split into two files, with headwords beginning with letters A-G and H-Z
respectively.


La respekta faylnomos esan:

The respective filenames are:


Mondlango_Etendita Monda-Engla Wordaro (AG).pdf
Mondlango_Etendita Monda-Engla Wordaro (HZ).pdf
Mondlango_Etendita Engla-Monda Wordaro (AG).pdf
Mondlango_Etendita Engla-Monda Wordaro (HZ).pdf



Mi anke tildatizin mia alia dokumentos kum eta canjos, aldonacos ay korektos. 
Ci tiu faylos esan:

I have also updated my other documents with minor changes, additions and
corrections.  These files are:


Mondlango_Afiksos.pdf
Mondlango_Nombros.pdf
Mondlango_Prepozixos.pdf
Mondlango_Pronomos.pdf
Mondlango_Propono 1 -- Studados ay Praktikantos.pdf
Mondlango_Propono 2 -- Plasnomos_Plasanos_Langonomos.pdf
Mondlango_Propono 3 -- Adico de Nova Sufikso '-i'.pdf
Mondlango_Tabelwords.pdf



Bonvolez komenti kiel yi deziruz pri iu ayn aspekto de ci tiu dokumentos.

Please feel free to comment on any aspect of any of these documents.


Amike,
Lyn.

Multa dankos!

Lee

--- In mondlango@yahoogroups.com, "lyn121141" <lyn121141@...> wrote:
>
> Mi jus tildatizin la Etendita Monda-Engla Wordaro ay epcarjin ji al la FILES
fako de ci tiu forumo. La cefa canjo esin procesi monda wordos kiu komencan kum
la litero 'B' ay anke la wordos kiu enhavan radikos kiu komencan kum 'B'.  La
tildatizo anke enhavan iu plua canjos ay aldonacos, krom dismulta korektos.  La
konforma Etendita Engla-Monda Wordaro esin tildatazin sekwe.
>
> I have just updated the Extended Monda-English Wordaro and uploaded it to the
FILES section of this forum.  The main change has been to process Monda words
beginning with the letter 'B' and also words containing roots beginning with
'B'.  The update also includes some further changes and additions, as well as a
few corrections.  The corresponding Extended English-Monda Wordaro has also been
updated accordingly.
>
>
> La Wordaros esan nun tro biga por epcarji kiel un faylo.  Tial, oni splitin
ciu Wordaro alen bi faylos, kum hedwordos komencanta kum literos A-G ay H-Z
respekte.
>
> The Wordaros are now too large to upload as one file.  Therefore, each Wordaro
has been split into two files, with headwords beginning with letters A-G and H-Z
respectively.
>
>
> La respekta faylnomos esan:
>
> The respective filenames are:
>
>
> Mondlango_Etendita Monda-Engla Wordaro (AG).pdf
> Mondlango_Etendita Monda-Engla Wordaro (HZ).pdf
> Mondlango_Etendita Engla-Monda Wordaro (AG).pdf
> Mondlango_Etendita Engla-Monda Wordaro (HZ).pdf
>
>
>
> Mi anke tildatizin mia alia dokumentos kum eta canjos, aldonacos ay korektos. 
Ci tiu faylos esan:
>
> I have also updated my other documents with minor changes, additions and
corrections.  These files are:
>
>
> Mondlango_Afiksos.pdf
> Mondlango_Nombros.pdf
> Mondlango_Prepozixos.pdf
> Mondlango_Pronomos.pdf
> Mondlango_Propono 1 -- Studados ay Praktikantos.pdf
> Mondlango_Propono 2 -- Plasnomos_Plasanos_Langonomos.pdf
> Mondlango_Propono 3 -- Adico de Nova Sufikso '-i'.pdf
> Mondlango_Tabelwords.pdf
>
>
>
> Bonvolez komenti kiel yi deziruz pri iu ayn aspekto de ci tiu dokumentos.
>
> Please feel free to comment on any aspect of any of these documents.
>
>
> Amike,
> Lyn.
>

How can i say in mondlango "those women"?
"tiu femos" correct?
thank you

首先我觉得ulango很好的语&#\
35328;。虽然ulango学习简单，\
457;音也是一字一音，可\
159;还是搞不懂一些发音\
212;该怎么整。比如："Kiu"
是应该发一个音类似中\
文的"酷"呢，还是"Ki"和"u"分\
;开发类似中文的"咳有"ʍ\
11;

其实这正是我一直想说\
的东西：大同语只有文\
字，太死板了。虽然你\
简单、简单、非常简单\
，可也得有些声音示范\
啊。人们喜欢关注生动\
的东西这个道理应该懂\
吧，况且不是每个人都\
知道国标音标到底是怎\
样的，况且当遇到上面\
所提到的组合时到底如\
何发音呢？从一开始学\
就能用正规的方式发音\
不是很好吗？当发音已\
经成习惯时再发现自己\
发音错误再改是痛苦的\
。ulango说对发音相对自由&#\
65292;可也得有个标准示范&#\
22312;啊，不然我怕大家自&#\
30001;的出了界。

还有ulango的简单是因为他&#\
21333;词变化小，是有规律&#\
30340;，比如后面加"o"、加"i"\
561;等等。那么我觉得在\
398;习网上首先就应该把$\
825;些有规律的规则放到\
398;习的最前面，如果字\
597;发音是第一课，那么$\
825;些规则就是第二课。$\
825;样以后学习接触单词\
102;才会觉得这个的确有#\
268;律、很简单、不复杂A\
292;使学习者有着深深的\
307;会和赞同感，并且也\
041;便遇到突然想不起的\
518;缀时可以即时的查阅\
290;

现在还是回到先前说的\
，我希望ulango能够生动起&#\
26469;。声音示范是必须的&#\
65292;否则再简单的规则也&#\
20250;有看天书一样的感觉&#\
65292;你要知道不是每个人&#\
37117;是那种能静心看文字&#\
30340;人。所以很是奇了怪&#\
20102;，ulango都这么多年了，\
026;什么就憋不出来一个#\
821;音示范。别说会此语#\
328;的人都是文字交流，\
174;来还没有过语音交流\
734;。

知晓、吸引才会得到关\
注，首先要知晓，如果\
我不是在查阅世界语的\
话我根本不知道还有个\
漂亮的ulango。让ulango生动起\
469;吧，你们ulango群体录一ߜ\
3;交流场景、ulango词的歌曲\
演唱放到youku、youtube上吧，#\
753;大家知道它的存在、\
427;的美。现代社会了，\
459;传别只停留在文字上\
834;。

Saluto, Lyn!


First off, a very big thank-you for the immense amount of work your wordaro
clearly reflects. I'm very excited to see the amount of work going into
Mondlango these days, and I imagine this dictionary will be foundational in
finalizing the fuzzier points.

Second, just a few observations and suggestions in regards to a few terms; I
pass them along to you because, as the creator of the dictionary, the
recommendations you list therein are no doubt significant. I mean any criticisms
below in totally good nature, and I hope that remains clear. I am also the first
to assert that my comments are worth exactly the amount of money spent writing
them. :-p

leyst: Total thumbs-up. I've been working on translating the Mediawiki interface
into Mondlango, and the absence of a word for 'least' led me to conclude that I
should just stick to 'dismor' and 'dismost' for comparisons where English 'less'
and 'least' would be used. I support keeping those words as alternatives (they
certainly follow the rules of the language, after all, and help those with a
more limited vocabulary to get around), but I tend to think they can be a bit
clunky, so I'm totally in favor of adding 'leyst' to the language's permanent
lexicon. (Incidentally, I tried to coin such a word, but could only think up
roots like 'list' and 'lest', which are clearly already in use elsewhere.)

kwaz: I quite agree with your remarks on the entry for EN "quasi". I think part
of the problem with the original wordaros, especially the one on mondlango.com,
is that He Yafu et al. didn't always clarify when they were using colloquial,
and sometimes very archaic, English to decide the creation of Monda headwords (a
similar issue appears with something like a MO noun listed as corresponding to
EN "high-ranking"; I wonder if they didn't just clip the word "officer" or
whatever it should have been and expected it to be clear, the same way
"Esperanto" could be colloquially described as meaning "the hopeful"). This is
probably part of what leads to such butchered semantic correspondences in the
early dictionaries where the confusion isn't just an outright error. I imagine
that, just as you mention, the listing of "quasi" as a conjunction is indeed a
confused oversight based on the usage of EO "kvazaŭ". Because it and some
of the other EO "-aŭ" words (or at least "antaŭ") tend to have usages
across multiple syntactic categories, I personally stick to something closer to
EO and just use "kwazaw" (i.e., keeping the "-aw" ending to indicate its fluid
usage similar to "antaw"). That's not to say that "kwaz" appears to be on the
hook of some set syntactic category, but the "-aw" words typically enjoy special
status as adverbs, prepositions, etc. without ever having to be marked for
category except in limited cases (at least in EO). I'm guessing something like
that is why "antaŭ" was simply ported as the unmodified "antaw" in Monda.
In any case, it cuts down on the need for alternative inflections, or at least
how often one might need to use them; I realize the counterargument arises that
it could allow ambiguous moments, but I'd answer that it would cause no more
ambiguity than using "antaw" in all of its many contexts.

preske/almost: I've noticed only one actual (i.e., non-dictionary) usage of
"almost" in He Yafu's own writings, and the context is thus: "la senprejuja
humos almost venadin al senduba konkludo, ke..." There are a few ways to
interpret this line, but the "konkludo" under discussion is that an
international language is somehow necessary, and the following passage never
seems to imply that the "almost" is due to any doubling back or simply failing
to reach a conclusion (and certainly not due to spatial considerations, such as
being physically near but not directly on or at). Nay, it seems more to do with
the fact that the practitioners and interested parties just haven't made it
there yet, but are still on the proverbial path to the conclusion in question.
Maybe it's a stretch, but I take it to have a temporal connotation in this
context, since it seems implied that the conclusion will be reached with the
passing of time, not the redoubling or outright modification of efforts. Maybe,
then, this could be the right way to view "almost" (just as "jus" refers to
"just" in a temporal sense, but never the other English uses of "just" like we
might consider as corresponding to "nur"), and "preske" could be mapped to uses
of EN "almost" that involve non-temporal considerations, such as narrowly
failing to carry out an action?

(Note: "Preske" does seem to have a temporal connotation in exactly two
instances that I can find in He Yafu's works, but in every other instance in
which he uses it, which are relatively many, it pretty clearly does not, so
there's good reason to consider going either way.)


I hope I don't seem like I'm splitting hairs here. I've recently started working
on both a wiki and a blog in Mondlango, so I'm excited to see the language
"frozen" rather than more time spent trying to perfect minuscule affairs; I
think you've done a wonderful job of bringing us much closer to that with this
dictionary. Many of the very minor features I believe could stand to be modified
are things I have already implemented in my short writings ("kwazaw" is even in
the title of the blog), but I'm open to revising them to better suit the
consensus... I'm mostly just offering my own suggestions based on what seems to
have worked well in practice, at least for me.


Amike,

Marcyo

--- In mondlango@yahoogroups.com, "lyn121141" <lyn121141@...> wrote:
>
> Mi jus tildatizin la Etendita Monda-Engla Wordaro ay epcarjin ji al la FILES
fako de ci tiu forumo. La cefa canjo esin procesi monda wordos kiu komencan kum
la litero 'B' ay anke la wordos kiu enhavan radikos kiu komencan kum 'B'.  La
tildatizo anke enhavan iu plua canjos ay aldonacos, krom dismulta korektos.  La
konforma Etendita Engla-Monda Wordaro esin tildatazin sekwe.
>
> I have just updated the Extended Monda-English Wordaro and uploaded it to the
FILES section of this forum.  The main change has been to process Monda words
beginning with the letter 'B' and also words containing roots beginning with
'B'.  The update also includes some further changes and additions, as well as a
few corrections.  The corresponding Extended English-Monda Wordaro has also been
updated accordingly.
>
>
> La Wordaros esan nun tro biga por epcarji kiel un faylo.  Tial, oni splitin
ciu Wordaro alen bi faylos, kum hedwordos komencanta kum literos A-G ay H-Z
respekte.
>
> The Wordaros are now too large to upload as one file.  Therefore, each Wordaro
has been split into two files, with headwords beginning with letters A-G and H-Z
respectively.
>
>
> La respekta faylnomos esan:
>
> The respective filenames are:
>
>
> Mondlango_Etendita Monda-Engla Wordaro (AG).pdf
> Mondlango_Etendita Monda-Engla Wordaro (HZ).pdf
> Mondlango_Etendita Engla-Monda Wordaro (AG).pdf
> Mondlango_Etendita Engla-Monda Wordaro (HZ).pdf
>
>
>
> Mi anke tildatizin mia alia dokumentos kum eta canjos, aldonacos ay korektos. 
Ci tiu faylos esan:
>
> I have also updated my other documents with minor changes, additions and
corrections.  These files are:
>
>
> Mondlango_Afiksos.pdf
> Mondlango_Nombros.pdf
> Mondlango_Prepozixos.pdf
> Mondlango_Pronomos.pdf
> Mondlango_Propono 1 -- Studados ay Praktikantos.pdf
> Mondlango_Propono 2 -- Plasnomos_Plasanos_Langonomos.pdf
> Mondlango_Propono 3 -- Adico de Nova Sufikso '-i'.pdf
> Mondlango_Tabelwords.pdf
>
>
>
> Bonvolez komenti kiel yi deziruz pri iu ayn aspekto de ci tiu dokumentos.
>
> Please feel free to comment on any aspect of any of these documents.
>
>
> Amike,
> Lyn.
>

Hello,

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codename_gimmick <codename_gimmick@...>

Dera amikos,


Mi volan sugesti ke, kiel la mostparto de la most konata artifica internaxa
helplangos, Mondlango posedan flago.

Mi epcarjin mia sugestita designaco por tia flago. Ji esan simpla, sed
miaopinie, eleganteta. La bluo, la verdo, ay la sfero (nature) reprezentan la
tuta mondo; la koloros eksteriran la sfero por reprezenti la ekspandado de la
huma spirito, kono, ambixo, atp. Mi kredegan ke la ideo de internaxa helplango
forte apoguman tiu virtos. Kiel diras ofte mua samideana amikos en la helplanga
grupo "posta_Mundi", "antawwarde!"

Mi esperan ke la Mondlanga komunio konsideron tiu simbolo por reprezenti jiself;
mi provin krei simbolo tiel bela kiel la lango self. :-)


Amike,

Marcyo

Resaluto, Lyn!

Indeed, there is at least one more interested Mondlangist here! :-)

I will admit that I find some of Esperanto's oddities novel, but I'm also rather
invested in languages in general, and I understand and rather lament the
frustration that they generally cause. (The failed rendering of "ux" in my posts
is definitely one of those frustrations that even I can't escape.) Monda,
though, is a wholly different type of odd, because it's so strangely familiar
and accessible, and I fully enjoy that. I also think that, while it may be a
climb for it to grow its community, that it has the potential to easily grow to
the size of Esperanto in our lifetime.

I have to agree that I've noticed an uncanny amount of what appear to be wholly
synonymous roots in the old wordaro; I probably rushed to dice up their meanings
in part to avoid cutting out words to the chagrin of others, as semantic
overlaps seems more detrimental than beneficial to an auxlang, but it sounds
like this group is generally open to eliminating unneeded words. That makes it a
bit easier for me to back off my proposal concerning "preske" and "almost"; on
closer inspection, I think you're right that trying to distribute the meanings
of such a word is unhelpful anyway. The word "antaw" does fine with spatial and
temporal connotations of EN "before", after all. To that end, I've caught on to
the fact that Mondlango seems very interested in mapping words to the exact same
extensions of English words where possible. I imagine it might be worth deciding
which to cut out at some point in the preske/almost debate; I have my opinions,
but I'll happily go with the group decision.

Another pair of words that seem to be unnecessarily confusing is "az/kiel". Your
wordaro deals with this, but again, I think it's weird examples like this one
that provide some insight into the reasoning process that He Yafu et al. used to
work out new words. Note how EO correlatives tend to be used as interrogative
and relative pronouns; this is also usually the situation in English, except
that "how" doesn't always get used as a relative pronoun ("swing the bat
how/like/as I do", but not "do how I say"; rather "like" or "as" in the latter).
I imagine "az" existed for those situations where "how" is replaced with "like"
or "as" always, but I think this is probably an instance where trying to stick
closely to English doesn't work out well. EO does just fine with "kiel", so I'm
in agreement that "az" can go.

Finally, regarding "kwaz" etc., I'll add again that I'm content to go as the
group goes. I chose "kwazaw" mostly to make "antaw" less of an anomaly, and
because it has a natural inflection paradigm that isn't too unwieldy, but "kwaz"
clearly poses the same benefit. Even if we chose "kwaze", we wouldn't
necessarily have a problem on our hands; Ido has "ante", which is inflected as
an adjective using "antea". I don't see how this needs to be problematic; its
meaning is usually pretty clear from context, and I'm pretty sure the same would
generally be true for a word like "kwazea". It's also worth noting that, if we
ever do agree to replace "antaw" with "ante", then we'll also wind up with
"antea" as an adjective. If we do end up going with "ante", then "kwaze" would
be in good company with it and other words like "preske" (if we keep "preske").
If not, then "kwazaw" has good company with "antaw". "Kwaz" fits well in any
case; but in the event that "kwazaw" is not accepted, I would say that it might
be worth taking another vote on "antaw". Having one remnant of an already
suspicious paradigm seems a bit odd, if not novel.

Anyway, we seem to mostly be in agreement on many matters, and where we aren't,
I'm happy to seek out compromises. In any case, I'd rather simply celebrate that
the language is still alive and kicking rather than get too hung up on finer
points, so here's to amikeco samideana!


Amike,

Marcyo


--- In mondlango@yahoogroups.com, "Pegleg Pete" <lyn121141@...> wrote:
>
> Saluto, Marcyo!
>
> Thank you for your comments.  I was beginning to think that nobody was
> interested in Mondlango anymore!  That would have been a pity � I very much
> like the concept of Esperanto, but I find that some of the legacies from its
> 19th century origins very difficult to handle; in particular:
>
> a) the special characters which do not appear on any national keyboard and
> which do not always reproduce correctly (as in your attempt to write the
> �hatted u� in �kvazau� in your posting), and the plethora of
workarounds
> such as the X-system, the H-system, ^-system, �-system;
>
> b) the accusative case inflection (-n); and
>
> c) the awkward handling of noun genders � i.e., assuming that the main noun
> for living things is always masculine and then adding a suffix (-in) if the
> feminine is needed, also the use of prefixes �ge-� to indicated both sexes
> and �vir-� to emphasize the male sex as opposed to the �don�t
know/don�t
> care� sex (e.g., �bovo� can mean both �bull� and �cow or bull�,
so �virbovo�
> had to be invented to clarify where �bull� was meant).
>
> Mondlango neatly resolves all of these problems (I don�t need to explain how
> to this group) and this is what attracted me to Monda in the first place �
> it makes learning and using the language so much simpler.  I would have been
> happy if Mondlango simply applied these reforms to the existing Esperanto
> vocabulary.  The latter is quite extensive and mature; whereas the Mondlango
> vocabulary is still very primitive.  In addition to the three Esperanto
> issues mentioned above, the founders particularly wanted to have the
> vocabulary lean towards English-derived words.  Esperanto is derived from
> many of the European languages � if anything, English is under-represented.
> As Monda was mainly developed in China, you would think that they would have
> tried to extend the vocabulary to include Chinese words, so the deliberate
> bias towards English was surprising.  However, as I understand it, English
> is a compulsory subject in Chinese schools and is very hard for native
> Chinese speakers to learn, so they wanted an easy-to-learn Esperanto-like
> language to use as a stepping stone to learning English � hence the bias
> towards including more English words.
>
> This English bias has led to a lot of confusion (for me at least), because
> it has resulted in a lot of duplicated words.  You mentioned
> �almost/preske�, but there are also other examples, such as
�bezoni/nidi�
> (need), �aspekti/simi� (seem), �proksa/apuda/nira� (near),
�ansero/guso�
> (goose), and several others.  While we could call these pairs of words
> synonyms, it is confusing as to whether each of a pair has the same meaning
> or where each is intended to be used.  If some people use one word and
> others use the other word, then it could effectively give Monda two
> dialects, and speakers of one could have difficulty understanding speakers
> of the other.  Some of the English-derived words look very awkward, and
> these I would recommend culling.  In other cases, the English-derived word
> looks like a good fit.  One of the tasks I have taken on in consolidating
> the various wordaros is to make recommendations as to which I think would be
> the one to keep and which to drop.
>
> I am glad to get your favourable vote for �leyst�.  I would have suggested
> �lest�, but it already exists with the same meaning as the English word.
> �least� could have worked, but in Monda it would have two syllables and
> hence would have sounded quite different from the English pronunciation.
> Suggesting �leyst� was the best compromise I could think of.
>
> Although there are supposed to be no rule exceptions in Esperanto, there are
> in fact two types of adverbs � roots with the �-e� inflection, and
> freestanding or particle words with no inflection.  Most of the latter are
> the most commonly used adverbs.  Esperanto �preskau� (I am not attempting
to
> write the �hatted u� here, I think that most Esperantists would understand
> this) appears to derive from French �presque� with the �qu� converted
to the
> simpler �k�.  But instead of leaving the �-e� ending (i.e.,
�preske� as in
> Monda), Zamenhof complicated the matter by changing the �-e� to �-au�
> (hatted �u� again).  The only reason I can think is that he didn�t want
a
> particle adverb to end in �-e� where it might be thought to be a root
> inflection (yet we have �tre� as a particle word, not �trau�!).   For
the
> most part, Monda has converted the �-au� ending of particle adverbs and
> other words back to an �-e� ending, which I think is a great.  Monda
�antaw�
> (from EO �antau�) is the one exception.  There was a lot of discussion in
> this group some 12-18 months ago about changing this to �ante� (this would
> also reflect the etymology of the word from its Latin/Greek/Sanskrit
> origins); �anter� and �pre� were also suggested � anthing but
�antaw�!.
> However, enthusiasm waned and we have stuck (so far) with �antaw�.  I
think
> that this is the only �-aw� particle word remaining, and perhaps we should
> change it officially to �ante� ???
>
> Which brings us to �kwaz-�.  EO particle words in �-au� can usually be
used
> as roots in other parts of speech.  For example: �antau� (prep.) �
antaua
> (adj.); hierau (adv.) � hierauo (noun).  If we have managed to get rid of
> all the Esperanto �-au� particle words in Monda (except �antau� �
for now),
> I think it would be a backward step now to re-introduce another one.  But
> that is just my opinion � your is equally valid and I respect that.  OTOH,
> if you want to use the same particle word as both conjunction and adverb,
> then perhaps we could consider �kwaze� (currently just an adverb).  But
then
> the adjective �kwaza� would be invalid because the root would be
�kwaze� �
> thus the adjective would need to be �kwazea�.  (Admittedly, this adjective
> would probably be rarely used.)  If we did return to �kwazaw�, the
adjective
> would be �kwazawa� which might look a bit better (but with lots of �a�
and
> �w�!).  There is precedent for using the same particle word in both EO and
> Monda � �dum� springs to mind, both conjunction (while) and preposition
> (during), but the adverb is still inflected: �dume� (in the meantime).
>
> So in summary, I would like to consider the �kwaz/kwazaw/kwaze� matter
> further.  It is an interesting case.  Personally, I don�t have a problem
> using �kwaz� as the conjunction (which are always particle words) and
> inflecting it to distinguish adjective (kwaza) and adverb (kwaze).  But I am
> willing to be persuaded (I am not wedded to either view).
>
> �Almost/preske�:  Perhaps you are making too fine a distinction between
the
> two.  I believe that this is another case where one of the language
> developers selected �almost� because it is English, while another modified
> EO �preskau� to the Monda form of �preske�, and somehow both words
ended up
> in different wordaros.  We should probably choose one or the other
> (currently I just have them listed as synonyms because they are both good
> words � neither stands out as being unsuitable, unlike �nidi� and
�simi�!).
> In this group some time ago we spent a lot of time trying to find words to
> distinguish different meanings of English �before� (before in time, and
> before in space � meaning in front of) and similarly �after� (space or
> time).  Neither English nor Esperanto make any such distinctions and in the
> end we abandoned any attempt to do so in Monda.  The distinction can easily
> be made from the context.  I feel that trying to make a distinction between
> �preske� and �almost� along the lines you are suggesting might just be
too
> hard for the average user to grasp (myself included, in practical use �
> having to remember which one to use where).  Both English (almost) and EO
> (preskau) seem to manage OK in this regard; do we gain any advantage if we
> complicate Monda in this way?  You have quoted some usage by He Yafu, but
> the sample size is very small � are there enough samples to reach a
> conclusion that he has consciously made this distinction between the two
> words?  As I have said before in this forum, the wordaros just list words
> and the English translation � they don�t provide any guidance as to usage!
>
> Well, this post is already way too long; apologies for that.  Marcyo, I do
> appreciate your feedback � it is very encouraging.  I hope that my response
> doesn�t seem too negative.  I am certainly willing to consider your
�kwazaw�
> proposal, and it would be nice if someone else were to jump in and give
> their opinion on the matters we have been discussing.
>
> The lack of any substantial feedback until now to any of the work I have
> published in this forum has been discouraging.  After completing work on
> headwords and roots beginning with letters A and B, I was planning to give
> it away (at least for a while).  However, I have been continuing along
> anyway, and am now about halfway through the letter C!
>
> Cheers for now, and thanks again for the constructive comments.
>
> Regards,
> Lyn.
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
> ------------
>
>
>
> From: mondlango@yahoogroups.com [mailto:mondlango@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
> Of Marcxjo
> Sent: Monday, 21 May 2012 10:35
> To: mondlango@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [mondlango] Re: Tildatizos ye la Etendita Mondlango-Engla ay
> Engla-Mondlango Wordaros
>
> Saluto, Lyn!
>
> First off, a very big thank-you for the immense amount of work your wordaro
> clearly reflects. I'm very excited to see the amount of work going into
> Mondlango these days, and I imagine this dictionary will be foundational in
> finalizing the fuzzier points.
>
> Second, just a few observations and suggestions in regards to a few terms; I
> pass them along to you because, as the creator of the dictionary, the
> recommendations you list therein are no doubt significant. I mean any
> criticisms below in totally good nature, and I hope that remains clear. I am
> also the first to assert that my comments are worth exactly the amount of
> money spent writing them. :-p
>
> leyst: Total thumbs-up. I've been working on translating the Mediawiki
> interface into Mondlango, and the absence of a word for 'least' led me to
> conclude that I should just stick to 'dismor' and 'dismost' for comparisons
> where English 'less' and 'least' would be used. I support keeping those
> words as alternatives (they certainly follow the rules of the language,
> after all, and help those with a more limited vocabulary to get around), but
> I tend to think they can be a bit clunky, so I'm totally in favor of adding
> 'leyst' to the language's permanent lexicon. (Incidentally, I tried to coin
> such a word, but could only think up roots like 'list' and 'lest', which are
> clearly already in use elsewhere.)
>
> kwaz: I quite agree with your remarks on the entry for EN "quasi". I think
> part of the problem with the original wordaros, especially the one on
> mondlango.com, is that He Yafu et al. didn't always clarify when they were
> using colloquial, and sometimes very archaic, English to decide the creation
> of Monda headwords (a similar issue appears with something like a MO noun
> listed as corresponding to EN "high-ranking"; I wonder if they didn't just
> clip the word "officer" or whatever it should have been and expected it to
> be clear, the same way "Esperanto" could be colloquially described as
> meaning "the hopeful"). This is probably part of what leads to such
> butchered semantic correspondences in the early dictionaries where the
> confusion isn't just an outright error. I imagine that, just as you mention,
> the listing of "quasi" as a conjunction is indeed a confused oversight based
> on the usage of EO "kvazaŭ". Because it and some of the other EO
> "-aŭ" words (or at least "antaŭ") tend to have usages across
> multiple syntactic categories, I personally stick to something closer to EO
> and just use "kwazaw" (i.e., keeping the "-aw" ending to indicate its fluid
> usage similar to "antaw"). That's not to say that "kwaz" appears to be on
> the hook of some set syntactic category, but the "-aw" words typically enjoy
> special status as adverbs, prepositions, etc. without ever having to be
> marked for category except in limited cases (at least in EO). I'm guessing
> something like that is why "antaŭ" was simply ported as the unmodified
> "antaw" in Monda. In any case, it cuts down on the need for alternative
> inflections, or at least how often one might need to use them; I realize the
> counterargument arises that it could allow ambiguous moments, but I'd answer
> that it would cause no more ambiguity than using "antaw" in all of its many
> contexts.
>
> preske/almost: I've noticed only one actual (i.e., non-dictionary) usage of
> "almost" in He Yafu's own writings, and the context is thus: "la senprejuja
> humos almost venadin al senduba konkludo, ke..." There are a few ways to
> interpret this line, but the "konkludo" under discussion is that an
> international language is somehow necessary, and the following passage never
> seems to imply that the "almost" is due to any doubling back or simply
> failing to reach a conclusion (and certainly not due to spatial
> considerations, such as being physically near but not directly on or at).
> Nay, it seems more to do with the fact that the practitioners and interested
> parties just haven't made it there yet, but are still on the proverbial path
> to the conclusion in question. Maybe it's a stretch, but I take it to have a
> temporal connotation in this context, since it seems implied that the
> conclusion will be reached with the passing of time, not the redoubling or
> outright modification of efforts. Maybe, then, this could be the right way
> to view "almost" (just as "jus" refers to "just" in a temporal sense, but
> never the other English uses of "just" like we might consider as
> corresponding to "nur"), and "preske" could be mapped to uses of EN "almost"
> that involve non-temporal considerations, such as narrowly failing to carry
> out an action?
>
> (Note: "Preske" does seem to have a temporal connotation in exactly two
> instances that I can find in He Yafu's works, but in every other instance in
> which he uses it, which are relatively many, it pretty clearly does not, so
> there's good reason to consider going either way.)
>
> I hope I don't seem like I'm splitting hairs here. I've recently started
> working on both a wiki and a blog in Mondlango, so I'm excited to see the
> language "frozen" rather than more time spent trying to perfect minuscule
> affairs; I think you've done a wonderful job of bringing us much closer to
> that with this dictionary. Many of the very minor features I believe could
> stand to be modified are things I have already implemented in my short
> writings ("kwazaw" is even in the title of the blog), but I'm open to
> revising them to better suit the consensus... I'm mostly just offering my
> own suggestions based on what seems to have worked well in practice, at
> least for me.
>
> Amike,
>
> Marcyo
>

A, yes, mi vidin tiu flago ce la Facebook-grupo, tamen mi iel esin konvinkita ke
ji niam esin oficizita, eble parte car la membros tie yam sugestin multa alia
flagos anke. Mi anticipin ke eble ne ciu aman mia designo, sed mi volin
kontribui mia sugesto minime por konsidero.

Mi yam usan staylizita versio de ji ce ci tiu wikio, sed nur por "pruvo de
koncepto". Se iam mu decidan ofice usi alia flago or simbolo, mi povan canji jim
facile.

http://mondlango.wikinet.org

Eble nun esan guda tempo por aludi ke tiu wikio esan libera por aliji ay krei
enhavo. Til nun mi mostparte workin cefe ye traduki la sistema mesajos alen
Monda, sed mi pensan ke esuz moyosege*, havi korpumo de informos ay
literaturacos Mondlanga.

Aynakaze, pri mia flago, la grupo povan decidi cu usi jim. Se yes, moyose; se
ne, niu problemo. :-) Mi nur aman vidi ke la lango havon propra simbolo por
reprezenti jim en la mondo.


Yia,

Marcyo


*Moyosege: el EO "mojosa"

--- In mondlango@yahoogroups.com, "Pegleg Pete" <lyn121141@...> wrote:
>
> [korektata versio !]
>
>
>
> Saluto Marcyo.
>
> Mi kredin ke esan yam Monda flago.  Mi dawncarjin la JPG antaw 2-3 yaros.
> Bedawrinde, nun mi ne memoran kie mi trovin ji, ay mi ne povan trovi ji
> ankore.  Eble ne esin "ofica"?  Eble iu konan de kie ci tiu flago devenin?
>
> Mi penon aldoni la JPG al ci tiu mesajo.  La koloro esan indigo kiu esin iam
> konsiderata kiel nova nomo por Mondlango (videz:
> http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/mondlango/message/723?threaded=1).
>
>
>
> Amike,
>
> Lyn.
>
>
>
> From: mondlango@yahoogroups.com [mailto:mondlango@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
> Of Marcxjo
> Sent: Monday, 21 May 2012 11:06
> To: mondlango@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [mondlango] Flago por Mondlango
>
> Dera amikos,
>
> Mi volan sugesti ke, kiel la mostparto de la most konata artifica internaxa
> helplangos, Mondlango posedan flago.
>
> Mi epcarjin mia sugestita designaco por tia flago. Ji esan simpla, sed
> miaopinie, eleganteta. La bluo, la verdo, ay la sfero (nature) reprezentan
> la tuta mondo; la koloros eksteriran la sfero por reprezenti la ekspandado
> de la huma spirito, kono, ambixo, atp. Mi kredegan ke la ideo de internaxa
> helplango forte apoguman tiu virtos. Kiel diras ofte mua samideana amikos en
> la helplanga grupo "posta_Mundi", "antawwarde!"
>
> Mi esperan ke la Mondlanga komunio konsideron tiu simbolo por reprezenti
> jiself; mi provin krei simbolo tiel bela kiel la lango self. :-)
>
> Amike,
>
> Marcyo
>

Hi, i have been following the discussions on and off for very long time, having
learned esperanto and immediately pointing out the problems inherent in the
grammar and words

Thus i was really curious about mondlango (i even read about it when it was
called ulango) and applauding most of the suggestions, especially making it
easier with english roots and getting rid of the special letters, which though
good in handwriting has proved too difficult and confusing to use in computers

i feel the nitpicking word discussions on the forum here has been tedious and
untimely since the roots of the language should be properly defined first, and
more critical ideas need to be caretaken; with proper ruling the words will come
later

One of the best things in esperanto is the corellative table, where learning a
few words and endings cause lots of words to be easily understood and
remembered, likewise i am contemplating the use of similar tables for pronouns
and prepositions, which would be best to have very clearly defined to avoid the
esperanto confusion of -en -al ("domen" works, "domal" should too!)

Also saw the chinese posting and truly find it unfortunate that the discussions
are separate instead of open and clear, which is one reason i have hesitated
about writing more here

My main big suggestion for monlango is some kind of the esperanto usage of -n as
a marker of a passive object, thus being able to make free word order, yet in
difference to esperanto having the -n being voluntary to avoid the constant
errors and gripes this causes for esperantists

Glad some people are still working on this
Aurin

--- In mondlango@yahoogroups.com, "Pegleg Pete" <lyn121141@...> wrote:
>
> At present, there seems to be just the two of us :-(

Hope you'll forgive me, but this reply will be inline for my own piece of mind!
My input should be differentiable by the absence of tick marks in the lines of
my responses.

--- In mondlango@yahoogroups.com, "Pegleg Pete" <lyn121141@...> wrote:
>
> At present, there seems to be just the two of us :-(   Up until about 18
> months ago, there were several people actively involved, but they all
> gradually disappeared.  One who was particularly involved dropped out so
> suddenly that I thought something must have happened to him - got ill, or
> even died!  I found his email address and sent him a private message; he was
> still alive and well, but wanted to make some radical changes and thought it
> best to go off and create a new Esperantido on his own.  Just checked his
> website - gives a message that it no longer exists (but he may have changed
> its name).
>

I was here then (though probably under another email address); Luiz has replaced
his Mondlango site with one in his new language, Interlango.
http://www.interlango.kit.net/ It's coming along nicely enough, but he seems to
have forgotten to change most of the Mondlango-related metadata, like the page
title.

I remember trying to interject on the discussions in which he wanted to make
seemingly major changes. I was frustrated by the fact that he seemed to disguise
relatively arbitrary changes as being much more linguistically informed than
they were, and bury the counterarguments which noted that, but I also respect
that he has put his ambitions into a whole new project. I think Mondlango is at
least standardized to the point that making changes on the scale he was
proposing would indeed be more productively addressed by a new project.

Also, I'm not against making changes that aren't strictly for linguistic
reasons. I fully admit that my use of "kwazaw" is partly just for a bit more
symmetry in the aesthetics of the language, but I saw no more point to changing
things like the pronouns than I did using "kwazaw" over "kwaz". Not everyone is
going to pronounce "vi" correctly, either, after all, but that's a bit beside my
point.

> I think that one of the problems was that we were trying too hard to
> "finesse" some words (a bit like our "almost/preske" discussion) and we were
> taking too much time to reach a consensus.  I didn't think that creating
> your own version of a language without input from others would be very
> productive.  You can certainly work faster that way, but in the end you have
> to publish the results, and that is where you get flooded with feedback and
> have to deal with it.  Better, I feel, to work through issues together (but
> without getting bogged down on the finer points).  But in effect, that is
> what I have ended up doing anyway (working alone), because there was no one
> (until now) to discuss matters with.  Despite invitations to discuss and
> criticize my (few, by this time) postings.
>
Mondlango's in an interesting position. I've noted elsewhere that, even with
incomplete documentation, it's quite uncannily *well*-documented for an auxlang
created in this generation, save maybe for Lingua Franca Nova and some of the
newer posta_Mundi langs. For all that, it has barely seen the light of day in
any written arena outside of its few forums. I totally agree that it's important
to make sure its user base as a whole is comfortable with its state, but being
one of the very few to try and create something in it that's not just part of
the metadiscussion is part of why I'm okay with having taken some creative
liberties. If anything, I wonder if questions of matter like reform would be
better addressed after actually putting the language to more use? That's how
Zamenhof decided his reforms with Esperanto; it's also how I've typically
decided to make the minor changes I have. I find something I want to say, and if
I don't feel like the language properly gets it across in its current state, I
make minor modifications. Usually, these are *really* minor changes, though,
like inflecting "ayn" as "ayna" except in the same positions that EO does not
(such as "iu ayn"; He Yafu seems to use "ayn" in all cases, which makes it feel
less like a proper adjective). Clearly, as the previous illustrates, not all of
these changes are rigorously grounded as much as aesthetic, but I'm also very
upfront about that.

> Another area that bogged us down was that some people felt that certain
> existing Monda words would be too difficult to pronounce by speakers of some
> languages.  Alternatives were suggested, but in most cases the suggested
> changes would be too difficult for some other group to pronounce.  One
> problem area was the personal pronouns, esp. "hi" and "yi".  In the end we
> compromised by going back to the EO words "il" and "vi".  I didn't care one
> way or the other, so I went along with it.  But when the proponents all
> dropped out, I reverted to using the original "hi" and "yi".  I don't think
> that there was any solution that would have satisfied everyone.  I have
> trouble pronouncing the EO "hatted h" or "hx", but it would never have
> occurred to me to suggest changing it or its pronunciation (it seems to be
> dying out anyway, being replaced gradually by "k").  Instead, I practised my
> pronunciation with words such as "loch" and "Bach"!  I feel a lot more
> comfortable with that now.
>

I love, and imagine I'll eventually have to miss, that delightful <hx>... I use
the <hx> variants of words that come in both <hx> and <k> flavors everywhere I
can.

The "yi/vi" issue annoyed me for exactly the reason you mention above: there
will almost certainly always be words that pose difficulty for some or other
group of speakers. The question is whether they can pronounce it "well enough"
to be understood, otherwise we'd end up with a language of unusually few
phonemes. That may even be desirable, but in the case of a language emulating
both EO and English, I rather doubt it. The beauty of auxlangs is that "well
enough" is all the more you really need to strive for. You aren't ostracized for
failing to trill an /r/ or pronouncing /v/ as a labial fricative instead of
labiodental, because often, you'll be understood within a certain range of
allophones.

(Truth told, though, I remember reading that, at least in the days where it was
more often called Ulango, it was recommending to *never* roll the <r>, which
makes me cringe a bit to consider even now. I always tap it lightly, as one
typically might in EO.)

> While there has been very little happening in this forum of late from
> English speakers, I think there may be a lot more activity on the Chinese
> language side.  One of the original Monda developers was quite active at one
> time, but almost all of his posts were in Chinese (which I do not speak or
> read).  I did try to get his input for the wordaro I am working on, but the
> response was that all of their work was in manuscript form, no data files
> ?!?!  My worry is that they may be developing the language in one direction
> while we (English and other EU language speakers) are going in another
> direction.  There is no feedback between the two groups.  The language may
> be diverging into two versions or dialects.
>

I'm also in the Mondlango Facebook Group. When I mentioned the Mondlango wiki
I've been working on there, Mario German (who I think used to be in *this*
group, too) made some remarks about how hard it is to get feedback from He Yafu
in the western dialogue about Mondlango. I've seen the Chinese language forum,
but without knowing Chinese, I couldn't even be sure if he was in it, so I
suggested that perhaps He Yafu himself is mum in both discussions to uphold his
promise to release Monda to the world and let it grow naturally (he says
something to this effect on his webpage; no copyright, no Fundamento, etc.). In
any case, that forum is far more active than this one, so I could always be
wrong; this has also led me to wonder if we're now speaking non-standard
Mondlango. If so, we do what every enterprising open-source developer does; we
deliberately fork off and go our own way. :-p Seriously, though; Mondlango as we
know it has a lot of potential; why even *consider* changing just because
another group of users has? Even better, *where* are their examples of the
language's usage? Whether a language is really standardized is almost moot while
it doesn't get any real-world use.

> Anyway, I will get off my soapbox now!
>

No worries at all. We make quite the team of preachers. ;-) I enjoy that we can
have this discussion with such good cheer, though; often auxlang dialogues
result in ignited passions, which I've been guilty of as well, but I try to
remember that something as wacky as helping construct a language, even one with
function-over-form principles, should just be lots of fun.

> Cheers,
> Lyn.
>
>

Amike,
Marcyo

>
> From: mondlango@yahoogroups.com [mailto:mondlango@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
> Of Marcxjo
> Sent: Tuesday, 22 May 2012 02:30
> To: mondlango@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [mondlango] Re: Tildatizos ye la Etendita Mondlango-Engla ay
> Engla-Mondlango Wordaros
>
>
>
> [--snip--]
>
> Anyway, we seem to mostly be in agreement on many matters, and where we
> aren't, I'm happy to seek out compromises. In any case, I'd rather simply
> celebrate that the language is still alive and kicking rather than get too
> hung up on finer points, so here's to amikeco samideana!
>
> Amike,
>
> Marcyo
>
>
>
>
> _,___
>

--- In mondlango@yahoogroups.com, "solsang@..." <ymail@...> wrote:
>
> Hi,

Hi! :-p

>i have been following the discussions on and off for very long time, having
learned esperanto and immediately pointing out the problems inherent in the
grammar and words
>
> Thus i was really curious about mondlango (i even read about it when it was
called ulango) and applauding most of the suggestions, especially making it
easier with english roots and getting rid of the special letters, which though
good in handwriting has proved too difficult and confusing to use in computers
>

Hint: Windows has Tajpi. I think Mac has a similar solution. Linux has an entire
EO keyboard (and OS, if you use Ubuntu!).

All kidding aside, though, yes, it has been difficult for unicode to catch up.
Just look what happens when you try to type EO's special letters into a message
on this forum!

> i feel the nitpicking word discussions on the forum here has been tedious and
untimely since the roots of the language should be properly defined first, and
more critical ideas need to be caretaken; with proper ruling the words will come
later
>

The thing here, though, is that the grammar *is* largely sketched out for
Mondlango. The only real grammatical details left to work out are for rather
specialized situations. In any case, I've been pushing the thesis here that the
language is all but ready for prime time, and the details where it lacks should
be things we try to work out through practical use. If we spend too much time
trying to anticipate and construct solutions for every linguistic situation
possible, this language is going to be stuck in neutral, so to speak, for even
longer than it already has.

> One of the best things in esperanto is the corellative table, where learning a
few words and endings cause lots of words to be easily understood and
remembered, likewise i am contemplating the use of similar tables for pronouns
and prepositions, which would be best to have very clearly defined to avoid the
esperanto confusion of -en -al ("domen" works, "domal" should too!)
>

"Domen" -- an adverb with the accusative ending, yes? This actually *is* good
standard EO, but I don't remember ever seeing "domal", at least in EO. It seems
like something I may have seen suggested for an Esperantido, but I can't even be
sure. Assuming it means something like "at home", there are other constructions
for that that may take a bit longer to write or utter, but they're at least
intuitive if you know the grammar of Monda/EO. If you mean "domal" = "domala" =
"pertaining to the home" as in Ido, I'd suggest that Monda grammar allows for
"doma" to be just as meaningful. The "-al" suffix of Ido seems to have been
constructed just for the philological value, partly because Romance speakers
(like the French speakers who helped construct Ido) likely perceived the fluid
"inflectability" of words to be a bit unnatural without such a suffix. (Thank of
Spanish "persona" and "personal", for example.)

> Also saw the chinese posting and truly find it unfortunate that the
discussions are separate instead of open and clear, which is one reason i have
hesitated about writing more here
>

Agreed. Their forum is quite busy, too-- why can't we be invited to that party?!
:-(

> My main big suggestion for monlango is some kind of the esperanto usage of -n
as a marker of a passive object, thus being able to make free word order, yet in
difference to esperanto having the -n being voluntary to avoid the constant
errors and gripes this causes for esperantists
>

I'm with Lyn here. It's not a bad idea, but Monda was instituted partly to have
an auxlang available that doesn't raise discussion of things like the accusative
case. (Full disclosure: I speak fluent EO and love that *it* has an accusative.)
I don't know that Monda badly needs it, though I also would have no problem with
it, except that, if we did choose the ending "-m" as Lyn predicts (and that
seems the natural choice indeed), the plural ending "-oms" doesn't feel all that
natural. Likely it would be pronounced as "-omz" in most English-speaking
mouths, though, which would break the phonetics of the orthography (though in
just this one context I can admit that that shouldn't cause much of a problem).
These are minor complaints on my part, though; my bigger fear is just that it
seems ambitious to suggest too many changes to Monda's grammar on that scale.
Monda is about as complete a sketch as one can expect from an auxlang that
hasn't seen much practical use yet, and in any case, it's designed to
intentionally follow the grammar of English at least loosely, so it ought to be
able to get by without an accusative. If you think about natural languages like
English itself, it's usually (though certainly not always) possible to change up
the word order of sentences without being unclear if you at least provide decent
context.

> Glad some people are still working on this
> Aurin

I don't mean to seem negative. I hate to be that guy who's trying to push out a
few ideas and then blocking others; again, my only hesitation is that making big
grammatical changes, like adding grammatical cases to Monda, is probably a bit
far-reaching for a project that's essentially finalized except for the small
details. I could always be wrong, though, and this might be exactly what
Mondlango needs. Post a poll if you're passionate about it, and see how the
group votes; if it gets a big vote in favor and we decide to officialize it, you
won't hear me complain. I may not use it very often, but I'll still respect the
group decision.


Amike,

Marcyo

>
> --- In mondlango@yahoogroups.com, "Pegleg Pete" <lyn121141@> wrote:
> >
> > At present, there seems to be just the two of us :-(
>

Haha, mi apologan; mi ne konin kiel disfacile esuz, trovi "moyosa", aliel mi
esuz eksplikinta. :-p

Mi konan pri la tabelos, sed mi povan reserci. Mi ameguz havi la wordaro en la
wikio!

--- In mondlango@yahoogroups.com, "Pegleg Pete" <lyn121141@...> wrote:
>
> La wikio aspektan interesa.  Eble oni povuz epcarji la nova wordaro al tie?
> Cu eblas epcarji tabelo al la wikio (egz. Excel tabelo)?
>
> Mi ne konin EO wordo "mojosa". Esan disfacila por trovi, sed mi trovin ji ye
> Lernu.net.  Esan slanga wordo kiu signifan "cool, groovy".   :-)
>
> Lyn.
>
>
>
> From: mondlango@yahoogroups.com [mailto:mondlango@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
> Of Marcxjo
> Sent: Tuesday, 22 May 2012 02:48
> To: mondlango@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [mondlango] Re: Flago por Mondlango
>
> A, yes, mi vidin tiu flago ce la Facebook-grupo, tamen mi iel esin
> konvinkita ke ji niam esin oficizita, eble parte car la membros tie yam
> sugestin multa alia flagos anke. Mi anticipin ke eble ne ciu aman mia
> designo, sed mi volin kontribui mia sugesto minime por konsidero.
>
> Mi yam usan staylizita versio de ji ce ci tiu wikio, sed nur por "pruvo de
> koncepto". Se iam mu decidan ofice usi alia flago or simbolo, mi povan canji
> jim facile.
>
> http://mondlango.wikinet.org
>
> Eble nun esan guda tempo por aludi ke tiu wikio esan libera por aliji ay
> krei enhavo. Til nun mi mostparte workin cefe ye traduki la sistema mesajos
> alen Monda, sed mi pensan ke esuz moyosege*, havi korpumo de informos ay
> literaturacos Mondlanga.
>
> Aynakaze, pri mia flago, la grupo povan decidi cu usi jim. Se yes, moyose;
> se ne, niu problemo. :-) Mi nur aman vidi ke la lango havon propra simbolo
> por reprezenti jim en la mondo.
>
> Yia,
>
> Marcyo
>
> *Moyosege: el EO "mojosa"
>
>
>
> ,___
>

--- In mondlango@yahoogroups.com, "Marcxjo" <codename_gimmick@...> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --- In mondlango@yahoogroups.com, "solsang@" <ymail@> wrote:
> >
> > Hi,
>
> Hi! :-p
>
> >i have been following the discussions on and off for very long time, having
learned esperanto and immediately pointing out the problems inherent in the
grammar and words
> >
> > Thus i was really curious about mondlango (i even read about it when it was
called ulango) and applauding most of the suggestions, especially making it
easier with english roots and getting rid of the special letters, which though
good in handwriting has proved too difficult and confusing to use in computers
> >
>
> Hint: Windows has Tajpi. I think Mac has a similar solution. Linux has an
entire EO keyboard (and OS, if you use Ubuntu!).

I have been making my own keyboards and tried to use or read both x system, h
system, lonely hats or apostrophes, it is so ugly to see the eo letters or
forums mixing it up; seems a lost case as long as it takes too much effort for
most people (and i have had the problem since 1994 when i learned it!)
>
> All kidding aside, though, yes, it has been difficult for unicode to catch up.
Just look what happens when you try to type EO's special letters into a message
on this forum!

I have partly given up on eo for that reason alone, even though i loved the
letters when i first learned them and wrote only by hand:)


>
> > i feel the nitpicking word discussions on the forum here has been tedious
and untimely since the roots of the language should be properly defined first,
and more critical ideas need to be caretaken; with proper ruling the words will
come later
> >
>
> The thing here, though, is that the grammar *is* largely sketched out for
Mondlango. The only real grammatical details left to work out are for rather
specialized situations. In any case, I've been pushing the thesis here that the
language is all but ready for prime time, and the details where it lacks should
be things we try to work out through practical use. If we spend too much time
trying to anticipate and construct solutions for every linguistic situation
possible, this language is going to be stuck in neutral, so to speak, for even
longer than it already has.
>

I am still sad about the biggest grammatical lack in eo, which is a logical
transitive, and have suggested using -ig- voluntarily too, thus adding it for a
clear understanding of transitive object

the -n- (or -m- ) ending is on the other hand meant as a construction suffix
instead of a grammatical thing; it should simply denote that the word having
this added is a passive thing, and when in a sentence never acts, leaving the
possibility of other objects being the active independent of word order

i am all for total liberty of word order and also try to see if it is possible
to make sentences that are totally free, thus avoiding any chance of grammatical
mistakes:)

> > One of the best things in esperanto is the corellative table, where learning
a few words and endings cause lots of words to be easily understood and
remembered, likewise i am contemplating the use of similar tables for pronouns
and prepositions, which would be best to have very clearly defined to avoid the
esperanto confusion of -en -al ("domen" works, "domal" should too!)
> >
>
> "Domen" -- an adverb with the accusative ending, yes? This actually *is* good
standard EO, but I don't remember ever seeing "domal", at least in EO. It seems
like something I may have seen suggested for an Esperantido, but I can't even be
sure. Assuming it means something like "at home", there are other constructions
for that that may take a bit longer to write or utter, but they're at least
intuitive if you know the grammar of Monda/EO. If you mean "domal" = "domala" =
"pertaining to the home" as in Ido, I'd suggest that Monda grammar allows for
"doma" to be just as meaningful. The "-al" suffix of Ido seems to have been
constructed just for the philological value, partly because Romance speakers
(like the French speakers who helped construct Ido) likely perceived the fluid
"inflectability" of words to be a bit unnatural without such a suffix. (Thank of
Spanish "persona" and "personal", for example.)
>

I mean the logic of using -al- or -en- as suffixes, thus meaning "going to" or
"being in" independently of other things, currently eo has a weird mix of
grammatical -n- meaning direction and al only used as a standalone word, that is
a lack of completeness which could be easily fixed, and which i would love to
see throughout the language


> > Also saw the chinese posting and truly find it unfortunate that the
discussions are separate instead of open and clear, which is one reason i have
hesitated about writing more here
> >
>
> Agreed. Their forum is quite busy, too-- why can't we be invited to that
party?! :-(
>


> > My main big suggestion for monlango is some kind of the esperanto usage of
-n as a marker of a passive object, thus being able to make free word order, yet
in difference to esperanto having the -n being voluntary to avoid the constant
errors and gripes this causes for esperantists
> >
>
> I'm with Lyn here. It's not a bad idea, but Monda was instituted partly to
have an auxlang available that doesn't raise discussion of things like the
accusative case. (Full disclosure: I speak fluent EO and love that *it* has an
accusative.) I don't know that Monda badly needs it, though I also would have no
problem with it, except that, if we did choose the ending "-m" as Lyn predicts
(and that seems the natural choice indeed), the plural ending "-oms" doesn't
feel all that natural. Likely it would be pronounced as "-omz" in most
English-speaking mouths, though, which would break the phonetics of the
orthography (though in just this one context I can admit that that shouldn't
cause much of a problem). These are minor complaints on my part, though; my
bigger fear is just that it seems ambitious to suggest too many changes to
Monda's grammar on that scale. Monda is about as complete a sketch as one can
expect from an auxlang that hasn't seen much practical use yet, and in any case,
it's designed to intentionally follow the grammar of English at least loosely,
so it ought to be able to get by without an accusative. If you think about
natural languages like English itself, it's usually (though certainly not
always) possible to change up the word order of sentences without being unclear
if you at least provide decent context.
>
> > Glad some people are still working on this
> > Aurin
>
> I don't mean to seem negative. I hate to be that guy who's trying to push out
a few ideas and then blocking others; again, my only hesitation is that making
big grammatical changes, like adding grammatical cases to Monda, is probably a
bit far-reaching for a project that's essentially finalized except for the small
details. I could always be wrong, though, and this might be exactly what
Mondlango needs. Post a poll if you're passionate about it, and see how the
group votes; if it gets a big vote in favor and we decide to officialize it, you
won't hear me complain. I may not use it very often, but I'll still respect the
group decision.
>
>
> Amike,
>
> Marcyo
>
> >
> > --- In mondlango@yahoogroups.com, "Pegleg Pete" <lyn121141@> wrote:
> > >
> > > At present, there seems to be just the two of us :-(
> >
>

Mi bedauran ke mi esin ay esan tro biza partopreni en yua interparolados
sed mi legan yua mesajos aj aplaudan yua worko.

Ray