Greetings all,

Does anyone know what the Old Norse names for the months were?
I've been able to find a few such as frørmánaðr, Gói, Þorri and
Gor-mánaðr.

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

-Svanni

Dear Svanni!
This topic was formerly in this list, you can try to seach the old
messages.
So, as I know, the names of the months (without any comments) were:

1. gormánuðr
2. frermánuðr eða ýlir
3. hrútmánuðr eða mörsugr
4. þorri
5. gói
6. einmánuðr
7. gaukmánuðr ok sáðtíð eða harpa
8. eggtíð ok stekktíð eða skerpla
9. sólmánuðr ok selmánuðr
10. heyannir eða ormamánuðr
11. kornskurðarmánuðr eða tvímánuðr
12. haustmánuðr

(info in russian is available here:
http://norse.narod.ru/calendar/calendar.html)

That's all. :) You can look also into Snorra Edda, or into the book
of Árni Björnsson. :)

Excuse me please for my English.

P.S. By the way, who know what's with the OCR of the Zoega dictionary?

G'Day,
       That's ancient Australian for "Good Day" a language
people overseas believe is still spoken in this country.
Thankyou Haukur and Oskar, congratulations on your brilliant
Old Norse course. I have just completed lessons 1-6 and are
currently revising them. I have never learnt another language
before, but I am finding the lessons to be at a level I am
comfortable with. It has only been a few weeks and I feel good
with my progress. My fiance and friends are now also starting
to show an interest.
I have a love for Germanic culture and would like to further my
studies in Old Norse culture. I think it is a shame that there
is such a great multitude of misconceptions surounding this
beautiful culture that are constantly being reinforced by the
mass-media. Is there anybody else out there that feels as strongly
as I do about these things?

Veriđ Heilir

Greetings!


Many thanks for posting that.  It was very helpful.

The Zoëga OCR project is going along pretty well.  Tom Wolf and
I are working on it along with a few other volunteers.  We have
over 300 pages in text files now, most of which I have posted at
the MSR web site:
http://www.midhnottsol.org/zoega/index.html

We have taken a break for Yule but we'll be getting back to work
after the new year on the last 200+ pages.

By the way if there is anyone that could provide a new scan of a
few pages that the scans we have for are currupted it would be
greatly appreciated.

A great Yule to all!

-Svanni

****************************************************************
**************

Dear Svanni!
This topic was formerly in this list, you can try to seach the
old
messages.
So, as I know, the names of the months (without any comments)
were:

1. gormánuðr
2. frermánuðr eða ýlir
3. hrútmánuðr eða mörsugr
4. þorri
5. gói
6. einmánuðr
7. gaukmánuðr ok sáðtíð eða harpa
8. eggtíð ok stekktíð eða skerpla
9. sólmánuðr ok selmánuðr
10. heyannir eða ormamánuðr
11. kornskurðarmánuðr eða tvímánuðr
12. haustmánuðr

(info in russian is available here:
http://norse.narod.ru/calendar/calendar.html)

That's all. :) You can look also into Snorra Edda, or into the
book
of Árni Björnsson. :)

Excuse me please for my English.

P.S. By the way, who know what's with the OCR of the Zoega
dictionary?


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- Keth

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I seriously doubt I will have time to play with this any time soon, but I
believe it could be helpful in learning ON.  My guess is there is some kind
of phonetic database needed to make it work.

http://java.sun.com/features/2001/12/flite.html
--
What is Truth?
Truth is something so noble that
if God could turn aside from it,
I could keep to the Truth and let God go.  -- Meister Eckhart

Greetings unto this list, from a sometime student, sometime lurker.
I was requested to get the following words tranlated, and I have had
absolutely no luck.
   They are:    prowess     justice     loyalty    defense
                courage     faith       humility   largesse
                nobility    franchise

   I thank you.
Hrólfr

Heill ver þú Hrothvar,

Here are a couple of suggestions for you...

-----Original Message-----
> From: hrothvar [mailto:bigdawg@...]
> Sent: Thursday, January 10, 2002 10:36 AM
>
>   Greetings unto this list, from a sometime student, sometime lurker.
> I was requested to get the following words tranlated, and I have had
> absolutely no luck.
>   They are:
> prowess

hagleikr (specifically in relation to crafts)

> justice

réttvisi

> loyalty

trú

> defense

vörn

> courage

hugrekki

> faith

trú

> humility

auðmýkt

> largesse

örlæti

> nobility

This is just a guess, but "ágætir mann" would be famous/excellent man.

> franchise

ummm... "Subway"? ;-)

Hope that helps. I'm sure others here can come up with better translations
for some of these.

Skiljum heilir,
Úlfgrímr

Norse Heathenry Society, Inc.
An historical reconstructionist approach to Norse religion
http://www.heathenry.org

Now That Was Interesting!

I just came across some readings from
the Edda by Stefán Karlsson. He attempts
to use "old" sound values; at least for
the vowels. Actually I think I do it a
bit better ;)

You can access the readings (and, by all
means, do so) by going to this page:

http://www.fva.is/harpa/malsaga/index.html

and selecting:

Saga íslenskunnar [History of Icelandic]
-> Sýnishorn [Sample]
-> 13. aldar íslenska [13th century Icelandic]

Then you have a selection of short audio
files with accompanying text and notes
(in Icelandic).

You can also have some examples of Proto-Norse
read aloud(!) For some reason the author has
decided to use strophes from the Atlakviða
"projected" into Proto-Norse, instead of using
an actual PN-text. Rather puzzling :) The reader
gives a lot of feeling into the reading. This is
great fun listening to - I sincerely recommend it.
I got the impression of Sauron reciting "One ring
to rule them all..." in Black Speech (Ash nazg
durbatulûk, ash nazg gimbatul, ash nazg thrakatulûk,
agh burzum-ishi krimpatul).

Anyway; this can be found in much the same way:

Saga íslenskunnar [History of Icelandic]
-> Sýnishorn [Sample]
-> Frumnorræna [Proto-Norse]

The reader makes some obvious mistakes and fails
to differentiate between certain phonemes (/r/ and
/R/ for example) but on the whole it's not too bad.

So, listen to the files and share your thoughts on them :-)

Regards,
Haukur

>Greetings unto this list, from a sometime student, sometime lurker.
>I was requested to get the following words tranlated, and I have had
>absolutely no luck.
>   They are:    prowess     justice     loyalty    defense
>                courage     faith       humility   largesse
>                nobility    franchise

Hi hi :)

Translating words out of context is not
an easy thing to do. Few of the words above
have an exact/unique correspondance in Old
Norse.

Have you checked the dictionary? The MS-people
have got a lot of it into searchable text files.
What is probably needed is to compile all the
text files into a single file. Then one could
simply run a string search for "loyalty" and see
which words would pop up.

To show the lack of exact correspondance between
the words above and some relevant ON words here
are a few dictionary entries:

trú (gen. trúar), f. (1) faith, word
of honour (segir Ólafr þat upp á t.
sína, at hann skal þessa menn út
leysa); (2) religious faith, belief (Helgi
var blandinn mjök í t.) ; taka við t.,
to receive the Christian faith.

trú-festi, f. faithfulness, firmness
in faith

trú-leikr, m. faithfulness, fidelity

trú-lyndi, n. faithfulness

trygðir, f. pl. plighted faith, sworn
truce (svíkja e-n í trygðum).

trygg-leikr, m. = trúleikr

hugr (-ar, -ir), m. (I) mind; í hug
eða verki, in mind or act; vera í hug
e-m, to be in one's mind ; kome e-m í
hug, to come into one's mind, occur to
one ; leiða e-t hugum, to consider ;
ganga (líða, hverfa) e-m ór hug, to
pass out of one's memory, to be for-
gotten ; snúa hug sínum eptir (at, frá)
e-u, to turn one's mind after (to,
from) ; mæla um hug sér, to feign,
dissemble ; orka tveggja huga um e-t,
to be of two minds about a thing ;
orkast hugar á e-t, to resolve ; ef þér
lér nökkut tveggja huga um þetta, if
thou be of two minds about the matter ;
(2) mood, heart, temper, feeling ; góðr
h., kind heart; illr h. ill temper, spite;
heill h., sincereity ; reynast hugi við,
to make close acquaintance ; hugir
þeirra fóru saman, they loved each
other; (3) desire, wish ; leggja hug á
e-t, to lay a heart, take interest in;
leggja lítinn hug á e-t, to mind little,
neglect; leggja hug á konu, to fall in
love with a woman; mér leikr h. á
e-u, I long (wish) for a thing ; e-m
rennr h. til e-s, to have affection for
one ; mér er engi hugr á at selja hann,
I have no mind to sell him; (4) fore-
boding; svá segir mér h. um, I fore-
bode; hann kvað sér illa hug sagt
hafa (he had evil forebodings) um
hennar gjaforð; mér býðr hugr um
e-t, I anticipate (eptir gekk mér þat,
er mér bauð hugr um) ; mér býðr et í
hug, it enters my mind, I think ; gøra
sér í hug, to imagine; (5) courage;
h. ræðr hálfum sigri, a stout heart
is half the battle ; herða huginn (hug
sinn), to take heart, exert oneself.

hug-rekki, f. courage, intrepidity

hug-hreysti, f. courage

hug-prýði, f. courage, nobleness.

hug-dirfð, f. courage

If you dont mind me asking; what are those words for?

Kveðja,
Haukur

>Here are a couple of suggestions for you...

I'm guessing you looked this up in "Íslensk-Ensk
orðabók", Úlfgrímr; is that correct? That's often
a good starting point - but one should always check
the words in an ON-dictionary. They might have had
different meanings back then.

>> nobility
>This is just a guess, but "ágætir mann" would be
>famous/excellent man.

The number and case of the adjective must
agree with the number and case of the
noun. "Ágætir" is plural nominative
whereas "mann" is accusative singular.
Putting both words in nominative singular
we get "ágætr maðr".

Kveðja,
Haukur

Heill wes thú!

>If you dont mind me asking; what are those words for?

You know, to me these looked like a list of knightly virtues. I can even
cite a couple of sources with a very similar list.

Probably off-topic rant

Relurking,
Pavel

-----Original Message-----
> From: fjornir [mailto:falconsword@...]
> Sent: Sunday, January 13, 2002 8:20 AM
>
> I'm guessing you looked this up in "Íslensk-Ensk
> orðabók", Úlfgrímr; is that correct?

No.

Cleasby-Vigfusson and Zöega.

Skiljum heilir,
Úlfgrímr

Norse Heathenry Society, Inc.
An historical reconstructionist approach to Norse religion
http://www.heathenry.org

Sounds like a version of Thorsson's Nine Noble Virtues to me.

Here's my try using modern Icelandic usage and comparing against ON:

Prowess = Hreysti (valor/prowess/boldness/skill in battle/comflict)

Justice = Frið (in the context of justice 'for peace'), réttur ('right' as
in righteous)

Loyalty = Trygð or Frið (depending)

Defense = Verja (to defend), Vernd (defense)

Courage = Kjarkr

Faith = Trú

Humility = [auðmýkt hugarfarsins] - supposition (doesn't sound like a
primary 'ideal' in that culture. It's a phrase than a word for word
translation.'Auðmýkt' alone isn't enough.)

Largesse = Örlátr

Nobility = Aðall

Franchise = [Einkaréttr] - supposition



----- Original Message -----
From: "hrothvar" <bigdawg@...>
To: <norse_course@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, January 10, 2002 10:35 AM
Subject: [norse_course] A translation needed


>   Greetings unto this list, from a sometime student, sometime lurker.
> I was requested to get the following words tranlated, and I have had
> absolutely no luck.
>   They are:    prowess     justice     loyalty    defense
>                courage     faith       humility   largesse
>                nobility    franchise
>
>   I thank you.
> Hrólfr
>
>
>
> Sumir hafa kvæði...
> ...aðrir spakmæli.
>
> - Keth
>
> Homepage: http://www.hi.is/~haukurth/norse/
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> norse_course-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
>
>

Heil Norse group
  Where would I be able to find a table that could show me how to
write Old Norse in the younger Futhark runes. I carve bone and wooden
ornaments and would like to add the runes to my artwork. I would also
like to know the Old Norse word for necromancy.

Thanks to all that gave coucil.  These are needed for a knighting
ceremony for a friend.  This is Society for Creative Anachronism
related, and some friends were making a "memorial" plaque for him and
yes, they are the knightly virtues.
   Thanks again, looking forward to getting "caught back up".
Hrólfr

> Here's my try using modern Icelandic usage and comparing against ON:

Not too bad.


> Prowess = Hreysti (valor/prowess/boldness/skill in battle/comflict)

Certainly.


> Justice = Frið (in the context of justice 'for peace'), réttur ('right' as
> in righteous)

The word "friðr" (accusative "frið") means primarily
'peace'; secondary meanings are 'friendship' and 'love'.

For 'justice' I would try "réttr", "réttlæti" and "réttvísi".


> Loyalty = Trygð or Frið (depending)

I would try "trygðir", "trúnaðr" and "trú".


> Defense = Verja (to defend), Vernd (defense)

Defence can be "vörn" or "vernd". Usually "vernd"
means something more like 'protection'.


> Courage = Kjarkr

Yes. Or the half a dozen word I mentioned in the
last letter.


> Faith = Trú

faith, hope, charity = trú, ván, kærleikr :)


> Humility = [auðmýkt hugarfarsins] - supposition (doesn't sound like a
> primary 'ideal' in that culture. It's a phrase than a word for word
> translation.'Auðmýkt' alone isn't enough.)

Uhm... The word "auðmýkt" will do for 'meekness' or 'humility';
"auðmýkt hugarfarsins" means 'humility of mind'.


> Largesse = Örlátr

"Örlátr" is an adjective; the related nouns
are 'örleikr' and 'örlæti'.


> Nobility = Aðall

I'm afraid "aðall" won't do; at least not
for the name of a virtue. I'm actually not
quite sure what 'nobility' does refer to.
I'm afraid I'm not much of a knight.

You might use 'hugprýði'.


> Franchise = [Einkaréttr] - supposition

I don't know what 'franchise' means in this
context. For 'liberty' or 'independence' we
have "sjálfræði".


> >   Greetings unto this list, from a sometime student, sometime lurker.
> > I was requested to get the following words tranlated, and I have had
> > absolutely no luck.
> >   They are:    prowess     justice     loyalty    defense
> >                courage     faith       humility   largesse
> >                nobility    franchise

So, here is my "best guess" list of translations.
I'm not sure I always picked the best word but at
least all of the below _are_ words :)

The right thing to do would be to read through one
of the chivalry sagas (riddarasögur) and find out
precisely which words are used there.

prowess - hreysti
justice - réttvísi
loyalty - trúnaðr
defence - vörn
courage - kjarkr
faith - trú
humility - auðmýkt
largesse - örleikr
nobility - hugprýði
franchise - sjálfræði

Kveðja,
Haukur

I'm headed to the Faroes later this year.  I have a some CD lessons on
Icelandic, but can't find anything on Faroese for computer learning.
Without going to the PhD dissertation level, how close is Icelandic to
Faroese as far as basic, traveler communication is concerned?

Thanks,

John

_________________________________________________________________
Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com

----- Original Message -----
From: "vidhar" <nina_net@...>
To: <norse_course@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, January 14, 2002 12:53 AM
Subject: [norse_course] two things


> Heil Norse group
>  Where would I be able to find a table that could show me how to
> write Old Norse in the younger Futhark runes.

The best book out there for your needs is 'Runes' from the Reading the Past
series by R.I. Page. He's a non-esoteric scholar who describes the liguistic
use of the runes very well. The book is only about 100 pages. You can get it
from Barnes&Noble.com or Amazon.com for US$15.

'An Intorduction to Old Norse' by Gordon has the Norwegian Rune Rhyme in it
with the runes drawn out.
'Runelore' by Edred Thorsson isn't bad. 'Rune Might' is Edred's book on the
Younger Futhark. Neither have what I think you are looking for.

I'd also be willing to help off-list.

>I would also
> like to know the Old Norse word for necromancy.

I, for one, don't know if there is one, but the Icelandic dictionary I have
gives 'Andasæringar' and 'Galdrar'.

Anda = breath/spirit/soul
Særingar = aggrieve/inflict/enforce or exorcism/conjuration/incantation

Andasæringar is a compound word and doesn't show up in any of my Old Norse
books. It's probably used rarely or a new compound. Not surprising since
'Galdrar' in this context is wrong (see below).

I don't know of any magic relating to the Dead other than talking to them
and keeping them from walking home. 'Ghosts' were thought of as what we
would call 'Zombies' instead of 'disembodied spirits' (according the several
Sagas). They weren't really that important and certainly couldn't be
controlled in the way  modern 'Necromancer' lore would expect.

The most common practices of magic that I know of were:

Galdr = songs/sounds of magic and their practice, associated with Odin and
Runes
Spæ = 'Spy', the scrying of hidden knowledge (i.e., in the future, other
worlds, etc.)
Seiðr = 'Seethe', the shamanistic practice of shaking/trance states and
trancendental magics, travelling outside of the body in animal form, and
often associated with conversing with the dead. According to Snorri
Sturlusson, Freyja taught this most unmanly of practices to Odin.
Útsæti = 'Out-sitting', the specific shamanistic practice of Seiðr while
sitting alone and outside, often on top of graves to summon and gain wisdom
from the dead (but not exclusively). See examples in 'Voluspá', the
'Hyndluljoð', and 'Voluspá hin skamma' in the Poetic Edda (Konungsbók
Eddukvæða). The term is a double entendre, because it means 'sitting
outside' to perform the magic and also to 'sit outside of oneself' or
'outside of midgard'. This is the most Faustian of the magic practices.
Maybe this is what you're thinking of?

Can anyone add to this?

-Laz

From which kingdom do you hail. I am here in Trimaris.

Thordis

  hrothvar <bigdawg@...> wrote:

  Thanks to all that gave coucil.  These are needed for a knighting
ceremony for a friend.  This is Society for Creative Anachronism
related, and some friends were making a "memorial" plaque for him and
yes, they are the knightly virtues.
  Thanks again, looking forward to getting "caught back up".
Hrólfr






Sumir hafa kvæði...
...aðrir spakmæli.

- Keth

Homepage: http://www.hi.is/~haukurth/norse/

To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
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Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.

>^^<Thordis Eiriksdottir

~~~*~~Brandiwolf~~*~~~

Yahoo messenger-copperwulf

         icq#55834655

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    Wolf howls her greeting!

----- Original Message -----
From: "Haukur Thorgeirsson" <haukurth@...>
To: <norse_course@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, January 14, 2002 9:37 AM
Subject: Re: [norse_course] A translation needed


> > Here's my try using modern Icelandic usage and comparing against ON:
>
> Not too bad.

Thanks.

> > Justice = Frið (in the context of justice 'for peace'), réttur ('right'
as
> > in righteous)
>
> The word "friðr" (accusative "frið") means primarily
> 'peace'; secondary meanings are 'friendship' and 'love'.
>
> For 'justice' I would try "réttr", "réttlæti" and "réttvísi".

Me too, but I think the context means a lot here. Sometimes 'justice' is
used to mean the process by which peace is gained. I just put it out in case
it fit.

> > Loyalty = Trygð or Frið (depending)
>
> I would try "trygðir", "trúnaðr" and "trú".

I agree. Again, it depends though. Vilhelm Groenbech describes Frith as a
deep loyalty between those sworn to each other.

> > Humility = [auðmýkt hugarfarsins] - supposition (doesn't sound like a
> > primary 'ideal' in that culture. It's a phrase than a word for word
> > translation.'Auðmýkt' alone isn't enough.)
>
> Uhm... The word "auðmýkt" will do for 'meekness' or 'humility';
> "auðmýkt hugarfarsins" means 'humility of mind'.

auð- prefix = to promote/to ease
mýkt = softness, pliability
hugar = mind/thoughts
farsins = travels

To 'auðmýkt hugarfarsins' =  easily pliable thoughts/decisions

To me, this isn't really a literal translation of what 'Humility' means in
English. But not being a native speaker of Icelandic/Old Norse, I'm sure
there is an inflection of meaning lost in the word-for-word translation.

I still stand by my statement that the concept is not very well rooted in
the idealogy of the culture. Compare with 'Courage', there are dozens of
words and variants to intone all the subtle degrees to which it could be
used.

> > Largesse = Örlátr
>
> "Örlátr" is an adjective; the related nouns
> are 'örleikr' and 'örlæti'.

I found 'örleikr' and 'örlæti' in my ICelandic Dictionary, but not in the
Old Norse dictionary so I hesitated to post them. Thanks for clearing this
up.

>
> > Nobility = Aðall
>
> I'm afraid "aðall" won't do; at least not
> for the name of a virtue. I'm actually not
> quite sure what 'nobility' does refer to.
> I'm afraid I'm not much of a knight.
>
> You might use 'hugprýði'.

Another hard one.

>
> > Franchise = [Einkaréttr] - supposition
>
> I don't know what 'franchise' means in this
> context. For 'liberty' or 'independence' we
> have "sjálfræði".

I'm stumped. I assume that my proposal is a modern term for a McDonald's.

>
> > >   Greetings unto this list, from a sometime student, sometime lurker.
> > > I was requested to get the following words tranlated, and I have had
> > > absolutely no luck.
> > >   They are:    prowess     justice     loyalty    defense
> > >                courage     faith       humility   largesse
> > >                nobility    franchise
>
> So, here is my "best guess" list of translations.
> I'm not sure I always picked the best word but at
> least all of the below _are_ words :)
>
> The right thing to do would be to read through one
> of the chivalry sagas (riddarasögur) and find out
> precisely which words are used there.
>
> prowess - hreysti
> justice - réttvísi
> loyalty - trúnaðr
> defence - vörn
> courage - kjarkr
> faith - trú
> humility - auðmýkt
> largesse - örleikr
> nobility - hugprýði
> franchise - sjálfræði
>
> Kveðja,
> Haukur

Sounds good to me... except for 'humility'. Not convinced yet.

-Laz

-----Original Message-----
> From: Lazarus [mailto:lazarus@...]
> Sent: Monday, January 14, 2002 3:25 PM
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "vidhar" <nina_net@...>
> To: <norse_course@yahoogroups.com>
>
> > I would also
> > like to know the Old Norse word for necromancy.
>
> I, for one, don't know if there is one, but the Icelandic dictionary I
have
> gives 'Andasæringar' and 'Galdrar'.

Zöega has "valgaldr": (m) charms, spells to raise the dead. Sounds like a
pretty good translation for necromancy.

Skiljum heilir,
Úlfgrímr

Norse Heathenry Society, Inc.
An historical reconstructionist approach to Norse religion
http://www.heathenry.org

Thank you Lazarus and Ulfrimr
I already posess the books you mentioned even though I do
not support many of Thorsons/Flowers theories I liked the
first half of Rune lore. I was hoping there was a particular
runic table that would show me how to write the various phonetic
symbols found in Old Norse. Most of the terms and titles that
you mentioned I am familiar with as I dedicate the majority of my
free time to the study of pre-christian Germanic culture. I think
Valgaldr will be perfect. At home I have the English translation of
an Icelandic legend that mentions a bishop skilled in runes and other
Heathen practices. One thing the bishop does a lot of in the
story is necromancy.

Valgaldr sounds good to me.

-Laz

----- Original Message -----
From: "Úlfgrímr" <ulfgrim@...>
To: <norse_course@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, January 15, 2002 10:08 PM
Subject: RE: [norse_course] two things


> -----Original Message-----
> > From: Lazarus [mailto:lazarus@...]
> > Sent: Monday, January 14, 2002 3:25 PM
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "vidhar" <nina_net@...>
> > To: <norse_course@yahoogroups.com>
> >
> > > I would also
> > > like to know the Old Norse word for necromancy.
> >
> > I, for one, don't know if there is one, but the Icelandic dictionary I
> have
> > gives 'Andasæringar' and 'Galdrar'.
>
> Zöega has "valgaldr": (m) charms, spells to raise the dead. Sounds like a
> pretty good translation for necromancy.
>
> Skiljum heilir,
> Úlfgrímr
>
> Norse Heathenry Society, Inc.
> An historical reconstructionist approach to Norse religion
> http://www.heathenry.org
>
>
>
> Sumir hafa kvæði...
> ...aðrir spakmæli.
>
> - Keth
>
> Homepage: http://www.hi.is/~haukurth/norse/
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> norse_course-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
>
>

Hello


I've recently joined your group and completed the first lesson. What
I'm stuck on is this - when Old Norse is being spoken, for example,
the sentence "hest ser draugr" (a ghost sees a horse) how will the
listener know the ghost sees the horse rather than the other way
around because the r on the end of draugr is silent?

Please help, Hrimalf

PS greatly enjoying the course!

> I've recently joined your group and completed the first lesson. What
> I'm stuck on is this - when Old Norse is being spoken, for example,
> the sentence "hest ser draugr" (a ghost sees a horse) how will the
> listener know the ghost sees the horse rather than the other way
> around because the r on the end of draugr is silent?

Ves heill, Hrímálfr!

Your question is sensible. The answer is simple.

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
*The final 'r' (or 'R') in Old Norse is NOT SILENT. *
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

I'm not certain whence this misonception comes,
but it seems to be spread rather widely. Another
favorite for a 'silent letter' includes the 'h'
in the 'hr' combination. I will state a more general
extension of the above rule.

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
*    There are NO SILENT LETTERS in Old Norse.      *
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

But I can think of two definitions for "silent letter".

1. A letter that when added to a word does not change
its pronunciation.

2. A letter that when added to a word may change its
pronunciation but is not "itself" pronounced:

According to the first definition the 'k' in 'know'
is not silent since 'know' is not pronounced like 'now'.

According to the second definition the same 'k' is
indeed silent since it is not pronounced "per se";
there is no trace of a stop in 'know' but that is
what 'k' usually  stands for in English.

According to the first definition there are indeed
no silent letters in Old Norse (using normalized orthography).

According to the second definition you could decide
there were silent letters in Old Norse, if you wanted
to. For example you could insist that the 'h' in the
'hr' combination only modifies the 'r' sound and doesn't
correspond to an actual aspiration.

If something is done in the orthography it is also done
in the pronunciation. Look at the four words below for example.

at
att
át
átt

All four should be AUDIBLY different from each other.
Their meaning is different, their spelling is different
and their pronunciation is different.

Question: How is 'ea' pronounced in English?
Answers: As in 'steak'. As in 'speak'. As in 'dead'. As in 'learn'.


> PS greatly enjoying the course!

I'm glad :) You are welcome to share all of
your problems and ponderings with the list.

Kveðja,
Haukur

P.S. The 'r' ending was eventually dropped
in the continental Scandinavian languages;
but it was dropped in the spelling as well
as in the pronunciation.

Hope this helps.

----- Original Message -----
From: "vidhar" <nina_net@...>
To: <norse_course@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, January 16, 2002 7:02 AM
Subject: [norse_course] Thank you


> I was hoping there was a particular
> runic table that would show me how to write the various phonetic
> symbols found in Old Norse.

Here's the table I made for myself :

rune        value
Feoh        F
Ur        U Ú Ü
Ur        V
Thurs        Þ
Öss        Æ Á A Ö O Ó
Raiðo        R
Ken        K G
Hagl        H (Q)
Nauð        N
Isa        I Í Y Ý (as vowels)
Jera        J Y Ý (as consonants)
Sol        S
Tyr        T
Berkano        B P
Man        M
Lagu        L
[Yew]        final -R only

Simple rules to follow:
1. No double letters
2. All spellings are optional

Always remember that YOU are more literate than almost every original Rune
Master we have evidence of. In the same language the word Kunungr (King,
according to Page) was spelled:
kunukR
kunR
kukr
knkR
kurnk
kakR
and anything else you can imagine.

Have fun!
-Laz

Simple rules to follow:
1. No double letters
2. All spellings are optional

Always remember that YOU are more literate than almost every original Rune
Master we have evidence of. In the same language the word Kunungr (King,
according to Page) was spelled:
kunukR
kunR
kukr
knkR
kurnk
kakR
and anything else you can imagine.

Have fun!
-Laz





Sumir hafa kvæði...
...aðrir spakmæli.

- Keth

Homepage: http://www.hi.is/~haukurth/norse/

To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
norse_course-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com


Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.

I searched a bit for "silent r's" in Old Norse
and quickly found many sources (all of them SCA,
I think) telling tales of silent and "nearly silent"
(whatever that means) r's. As I stated before this
is incorrect. :-)

Kveðja,
Haukr

- - -
"The final 'r' in <Thorvaldr> is nearly silent."

"Gareth is often confused with Garth [1], but the names
are unrelated in origin. Garth has two origins. There
is a fairly common Norse name, Garðr (where ð represents
the Norse letter edh, pronounced like the th in this,
and the final r is nearly silent and not a separate syllable)"

"An actual name was, indeed, coined by Sir Garanhir, as Cariadoc
recounted.  "Ostgardr" (properly spelled with a stroke through
the O and with the Norse lower-case thorn instead of a d, means
roughly "East Castle" or "East City".  It is pronounced vaguely
like "OOST-garth(r)", with the final r nearly silent."

"The name is certainly registerable.  'Ormr' (the final r is silent) is
found on page 13 of one of our standard heraldic reference books, Geir
Bassi Haraldsson's _The Old Norse Name_."
- - -

OK, I understand that the -r is meant to be pronounced. My next
question is; how do I do that? Is it rolled? Is it like the english
-er (as in speaker, softer, etc)? Is it like a vacuum cleaner type
noise (sorry can't describe this more technically!) with teeth shut
and lips open? Do we know?

Hrimalf

PS you write 'Hrimalfr' - this is a minor point but I am actually
female so presumably it is without the -r? How do you write female
elf? I don't really want to change my nickname as I've had it for
years :-(

--- In norse_course@y..., Haukur Thorgeirsson <haukurth@h...> wrote:
> I searched a bit for "silent r's" in Old Norse
> and quickly found many sources (all of them SCA,
> I think) telling tales of silent and "nearly silent"
> (whatever that means) r's. As I stated before this
> is incorrect. :-)
>
> Kveðja,
> Haukr