Hail Óskar !

I am glad to see you are back !  (was it from China?)
I haven't been able to follow very much of [norse_course]
for the last six months or so. So please excuse me, if
I am not updated.

I agree with you that Old Norse should be left alone,
since it is a "historic" language, and as such cannot
change - and that is a definition, really.

I have noted, though, that some people have been working
on the ancient Gothic language, and invented a lot of words
for it, so that the thus "ameliorated" language, may be used for
various toy purposes. (e.g. historical re-enactors -- or
maybe even 21st century "Goths" - with black garments,
sharp teeth and the works)

The same thing also seems to be happening to Old Norse,
where various "ritualistic" groups use it at mass rallys.
(shudder)



>Okay, this is a little something that we should all try to prevent
>from turning into an "international incident" of some kind ;)
>
>  Personally, I'm not really offended by your making up ON nonsense
>words. Must say though, that it's not entirely true that it's taboo
>to make up words in Icelandic. Quite untrue, actually. The 20th
>century has seen an extensive process of deliberate creation of
>words in order to enrich the language and maintain its vitality. The
>commonly cited example of "tölva", an artificial fusion of "tölu-
>völva" ("number-prophetress"), meaning 'computer', is in a sense

The Swedes also created "dator" for computer.
That seems like a good choice.


>created in the same spirit as Dæg's word "norondr". The main
>difference is that Dæg's mastery of the language (truly no offence
>meant) is most likely not comparable to the native-speaker linguists
>who created "tölva". Or at least "norondr" does not betray that
>mastery (again, no offence).

In Norwegian, this construction would not really fit
into the language. From "nord" + "ånd"  and then
make up a word "nordånd", wouldn't really work well.

"Nordens ånd" would work, but it already sounds as if it was from
the 19th century. (which it is)
"Verdensånden" = "the world spirit" (anima mundi)
(= "andi heimsins", most likely)

You *can* however say "nordmann" (=norðmaður).
But somehow it doesn't work so well for "nordånd" (=norðandi).
Maybe because "ånd" is an abstract concept. (?)



>What is taboo, then, or just not particularly impressive to anyone,
>is people making up words without being qualified to do so. Would
>you honestly be positive to foreigners making up English words
>without even being fluent in English?
>
>The most important point is, however:
>
>*Please do NOT provide false, deliberately made-up words without
>explicit warning*
>
>People were, to my knowledge, asking for a real word. It really
>undermines the work of both the teachers and the students to have
>false information floating around.
>
>As to an ON word to express the concept of "Spirit of the North"...
>quite tricky, because that is to my mind a rather vague, romantic
>concept, quite foreign to the ON mindset as I'm familiar with it.
>This much must be clear, IMO.

In classical antiquity they had all kinds of spirits.
And so the concept does predate romanticism by quite
a few centuries. But those were spirits of planets
or of trees, etc. I am not sure they had land spirits.
What I see as a typically romantic concept is the idea
of a "folkesjel"   (=the spirit of a nation).
(þjóðarsál?   þjóðsál?  which of the two?)
In the Trojan war, for example, it seems both nations
had the same gods. But maybe different gods supported
different sides ?

>  "Andi norðrsins" means literally "spirit of the north", but such a
>phrase is, ironically, very unlike the spirit of the north. Reading
>the sagas, you will find the language in them to be much more down-
>to-earth, generally unromantic (some sagas are markedly more
>romantic than others). When romanticism occurs, it is not for "the
>North", but rather for kings, heroes, and honour. Nationalism and
>cultural romanticism are modern concepts, remember :)

Anything that ends in -ism is of course modern :)

Best regards
Keth

----- Original Message -----
From: "fjornir" <falconsword@...>
To: <norse_course@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 2:46 PM
Subject: [norse_course] Re: Hail :-)


Dæg wrote:

>>Erm.. I made it up. ;) I realize that's taboo
>>in Icelandic, but in American English we do such
>>things all the time.

>Of course. Dunjaic as I am in my inflingency
>I have a flestrum of that. Just enfuate that one
>can't always strichen the clack to the cluck.

See.. this is why Icelanders are not allowed to invent words on the fly. ;)

Dæg

----- Original Message -----

From: mdehners@...

To: norse_course@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 7:17 AM

Subject: Re: [norse_course] Hail :-)

In a message dated 2/28/02 3:40:54 AM Pacific Standard Time, haukurth@... writes:

What is this running
joke about a word "norondr" which I've never heard of
and doesn't look like it should exist? :-)

Someone was trying to find a Norse equivalent to the English ´´´Spirit of the North´´...
Troth,
PTD


Sumir hafa kvæði...
...aðrir spakmæli.

- Keth

Homepage: http://www.hi.is/~haukurth/norse/

To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
norse_course-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com


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--- In norse_course@y..., "Lazarus" <lazarus@f...> wrote:
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Dæg" <DavidJBrooks@m...>
> > Or 'norondr' if you're looking for the essence of the north,
rather than
> the
> > spook. :)
>
> Yes, I agree. 'Norondr' would be very good for that meaning.
>
> Spirit could mean either 'other worldly being' or
> 'essence/drive/motivation'.
>
> -Laz

Thanks.  Yes, that is what I meant.

I appreciate your help everyone!

Úlfheiðr Njorðrdís

Hello,

A few words on Norondr and his friends.

At first I thought 'norondr' was a pure nonsense
word - but now I think I've figured out how Dæg
made it.

nor-ond-r

nor: a prefix meaning 'north', used in 'Norvegr'
ond: spirit
r: noun/nominative/masculine suffix

None of this is, I'm afraid, entirely correct.

The word for north is 'norðr', not just 'nor'.
It may have been shortened to 'nor' in 'Norvegr'
due to frequent use. Or perhaps the 'nor' in Norway
isn't from 'north' at all. One story tells us that
the land is named after a fellow named Nóri.

One of the Norse words for spirit is 'önd'.
It is related to the word 'anda' meaning 'breathe'
like the latin noun 'spiritus' to the verb 'spiro'.

There is no reason for tacking an r-ending to 'önd'.

In a synthetic language, like Icelandic, you cannot
form a compound word simply by running together any
old words in any old way. The language has certain
rules that has to be followed.

Generally the first noun in a compound word has to
be in one of three cases: accusative singular,
genitive singular or genitive plural. The nominative
case is definitely out.

For example if I want to make a compound noun out
of 'maðr' and 'dómr' I have three choices:

manndómr (accusative singular)
mannsdómr (genitive singular)
mannadómr (genitive plural)

In this case two of the words exist; 'manndómr'
means, roughly, 'manhood' and 'mannadómr' is something
like "the judgement of men". The form *maðrdómr is
definitely not possible.

As another example the person who asked the original
question on The Spirit of the North signed her letter
"Úlfheiðr Njorðrdís". In this case the first name is
correctly formed since 'úlf' is the accusative case
of 'úlfr' (*Úlfrheiðr would be incorrect) but the second
name is not correctly formed. To form a compound word
with 'Njörðr' as the first element the form taken would
have to be either 'Njarðar' or 'Njarð'. You might ask if
'Njörð', the accusative form, would do. I'm afraid the answer
is no due to one of the quirks of u-mutation. I won't go
further into that here. I'm afraid *Njorðrdís is incorrect
but either Njarðdís or Njarðardís seem fine to me.

As for the actualy question on The Spirit of the North
I more or less agree with Óskar. I think the concept of
this spirit is alien to the Norse mindset as I know it.

For a few words that start with n-o-r I cut out a page
from the dictionary (kudos to everyone involved in that
project) and used it as a front for the group's homepage
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/norse_course/.

I'm rejecting a few letters pertaining to the norondr matter.
Please don't take it personally.

Kveðja,
Haukur

William wrote:

>How about Akavit (Aquavit sp.). A fine northern spirit, chilled ice cold, and
tossed back. Those were the good old days!

Interesting !  Have you tried "Absolute Vodka" from Finland?
It was advertized quite a bit some years ago !

Hm.. you say "Aquavit" ??
That is actually from Latin: » Aqua Vitae «, meaning "Water of Life".
But in Norway we simply say "akevitt", which is a good example of
how foreign words are made to fit into the language. (by changing
the spelling in conformity with the folkish pronunciation)

In Sweden too, they have done the same thing, but the Swedish
result is not the same as in Norway, since the Swedes write it
as "akvavit". And in Iceland it seems to be "ákavíti" ??
Does that, btw, have any folk-etymological associations in
Iceland? I hope you can explain it Haukur.
In fact, to me, it seems as if it can be read as "ákafavíti" ?

This example, in fact also ties quite well in with
our previous discussion. Re: "Water of Life", being
quite analogous to "Spirit of Life", which is quite of
the same structure as "Spirit of the North". (or even Charles
Lindenbergh's "Spirit of St. Louis")

If I now go to Norwegian, I shall have a
word "livsånd"-> Icelandic "lífsandi" or "andi lífsins".

By analogy, one might then think that a construction
"andi norðurlandanna" would be possible in Icelandic.



>  William at Cragmere   hedgehog@...
>                                   hedgehog1@...
>  ----- Original Message -----
>  From: mdehners@...
>  To: norse_course@yahoogroups.com
>  Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 7:17 AM
>  Subject: Re: [norse_course] Hail :-)
>
>
>  In a message dated 2/28/02 3:40:54 AM Pacific Standard Time, haukurth@...
writes:
>
>    What is this running
>    joke about a word "norondr" which I've never heard of
>    and doesn't look like it should exist? :-)
>
>
>  Someone was trying to find a Norse equivalent to the English ´´´Spirit of the
North´´...

What would Lindenbergh's aeroplane be called in Icelandic?

Best,
Keth

----- Original Message -----
From: <keth@...>

> I agree with you that Old Norse should be left alone,
> since it is a "historic" language, and as such cannot
> change - and that is a definition, really.
>
> I have noted, though, that some people have been working
> on the ancient Gothic language, and invented a lot of words
> for it, so that the thus "ameliorated" language, may be used for
> various toy purposes. (e.g. historical re-enactors -- or
> maybe even 21st century "Goths" - with black garments,
> sharp teeth and the works)
>
> The same thing also seems to be happening to Old Norse,
> where various "ritualistic" groups use it at mass rallys.
> (shudder)

The definition of 'Historic' may be useful only if it is not being used in
the present.

What you have described are attempts by some to resurrect 'dead' languages
and use them in a modern context. If they are able to do this, then it no
longer becomes a dead language, but a recreation or a reintroduction. This
has precedent a dozen times over in history, so can't be 'dismissed'.

Admittedly, the level of linguistic competance by those who attempt the
ressurrection may be suspect, but language is defined by the user, the
Lowest Common Denominator, within the culture and not by the Language
Police. Aiight?

If reintroduction of a language were forbidden or impossible, then Israel
would never have been able to reinvent Hebrewa and the Square Hebrew scipt.
Originally the was exclusively meant for the Torah and private Rabbinical
documents. The language does not have thousands of modern concepts in it
that required the invention of new words. In 1947 they were adopted as the
national language and script for everything in Israel. Not only did they
reinvent it's use, they also reinvented the script itself, by adding
notation for extra vowels and consonants. If your going to complain about
one, then complain about the other.

Lastly, many on this list belong to ON "ritualistic" groups so I'd be
careful about offending them. They range from devoutly spiritual elderly
women with PHDs in chemistry to raging teenage neo-nazi skin heads. Lumping
them together is.....ignorant.

-Laz

Hi all,

I've been enjoying the course, but slowly.

Personal Testimony:
"Thanks to the Norse Course, my friend and I
can enjoy a relatively lengthy
discussion of black cheese and long swords."

I have a question, and if this is answered elsewhere
please direct me to it: what is the relationship
between modern Icelandic and Old Norse?

> Must say though, that it's not entirely true that
> it's taboo to make up words in Icelandic. Quite
> untrue, actually.

I have been impressed with what I've read about
the Icelanders desire to maintain the integrity
of their language. Am I correct in recalling
that the word for _electricity_ is derived from
the Icelandic for _lightning_ and _stone_?

I love that the English language has incorporated
so many influences into it, yet I respect a people's
desire to coin their own terms.

> Nationalism and cultural romanticism are modern
> concepts, remember :)

That is all too true!

For the mind set of the original Old Norse speakers,
what would y'all recommend reading?

Cheers,
Mike

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This is not related so much to Norse, but has anybody heard anything
about the Aino Tablets that were unearthed in Latvia and are in the
process of being translated?

Hi Mike!


> Personal Testimony:
> "Thanks to the Norse Course, my friend and I
> can enjoy a relatively lengthy
> discussion of black cheese and long swords."

:D I think I'll put that on the homepage if you'll
allow. Does anyone else want to contribute a quotable
testimony?


> I have a question, and if this is answered elsewhere
> please direct me to it: what is the relationship
> between modern Icelandic and Old Norse?

I don't have the answer to this on the homepage but
I probably should. Making a FAQ would be a good idea.

Very quickly the relationship between modern Icelandic
and Old Norse is similar to the relationship between the
English you speak and the English of the King James Bible.


> I have been impressed with what I've read about
> the Icelanders desire to maintain the integrity
> of their language. Am I correct in recalling
> that the word for _electricity_ is derived from
> the Icelandic for _lightning_ and _stone_?

Not quite. Our word for electricity is 'rafmagn';
made from 'raf' meaning amber and 'magn' meaning
might or power. Thus 'rafmagn' is amber-power.
This is, more or less, a translation of the greek
word. The greek word for amber gives you the electro
words.

One problem with the 'rafmagn' is translating Philip
Pullman's books. The English fantasist Philip Pullman
uses amber-words for electrical phenomena in his Dark
Materials books. The solution of the Icelandic translator
is to use 'ambur' instead of 'raf'. This seems rather
absurd. The Icelandic (loan) word 'ambur' doesn't mean
amber but ambergris - as far as I know.

Anyway, we don't use homemade words for everything;
plastic is simply 'plast' for example. I think the
Finns have their own word for plastic, but I don't
remember what it is.


> For the mind set of the original Old Norse speakers,
> what would y'all recommend reading?

Why, Old Norse literature of course! :)

I don't know which popularisations or overviews are
good since I have read so few of them.

Kveðja,
Haukur

Hello Lazarus !

There is no need to "resurrect" Old Norse.
After all, there is Icelandic, which is about as close
as you can get. Also, Icelandic is continously
connected to Old Norse, nor is there any land to
be resettled. Therefore, I think your comparison
with Israel is beside the point.

Old Norse is just an older (historic) stage of
Icelandic. (and of the other Nordic languages
too, but they have changed more, because of the
influence of German)

A comparison between Shakespeare's English and
modern American would be much more to the point.

Cheers,
Keth

THere is an entire website devoted to them:

http://www.aino.freeservers.com/

-Laz

----- Original Message -----
From: "vingamel" <brady.boyd@...>
To: <norse_course@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, December 14, 2001 11:57 AM
Subject: [norse_course] Aino Tablets


> This is not related so much to Norse, but has anybody heard anything
> about the Aino Tablets that were unearthed in Latvia and are in the
> process of being translated?
>
>
>
>
> Sumir hafa kvæði...
> ...aðrir spakmæli.
>
> - Keth
>
> Homepage: http://www.hi.is/~haukurth/norse/
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> norse_course-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
>
>

----- Original Message -----
From: <keth@...>

> There is no need to "resurrect" Old Norse....

> ...A comparison between Shakespeare's English and
> modern American would be much more to the point.

> Cheers,
> Keth

Ah, but there is much work being done right now about the
resurrection/reintroduction of Shakespeares's English and King James
English. Just because you don't find it useful doesn't mean there aren't
hundreds or even thousands who do.

Besides, what about what biologists do with Latin? I'm sure Caeser Augustus
would be quite confused to hear of an insect named Strigiphilus garylarsoni
(owl louse named for cartoonist Gary Larson).

-Lazarus

"But in my opinion, trying to pronounce Old Icelandic
as it was spoken
1100 years ago is pointless.  Languages change.
Pronouncing Old
Icelandic with the modern sounds (not so terribly
different in any
case) is perfectly acceptable and is even done here in
Iceland, where
we speak the language every day.  Language is a
continuum, not a self-
contained period in time.  Think diachronic, not
synchronic.

Chad"

I think there is a point of trying to get the
pronounciuation as close as to how it would have been
because why bother learning a 'dead' language anyway
when an 'expert' can translate works in said language
for you into English? Why not simply learn modern
Icelandic if you're not that bothered about being
authentic? Latin is not pronouced the same as Italian
and biblical Hebrew was not always pronounced the same
as colloquial Hebrew so why pronounce Old norse as if
it were Icelandic?

Hrimalfr




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You definitely have a point there "Rime-elf".
The goal is to pronounce somewhat like it was
when it was written.

However, if you want to learn it as "a living
language", there seems to be no way outside
Icelandic.



>I think there is a point of trying to get the
>pronounciuation as close as to how it would have been
>because why bother learning a 'dead' language anyway
>when an 'expert' can translate works in said language
>for you into English? Why not simply learn modern
>Icelandic if you're not that bothered about being
>authentic? Latin is not pronouced the same as Italian
>and biblical Hebrew was not always pronounced the same
>as colloquial Hebrew so why pronounce Old norse as if
>it were Icelandic?

I agree with you that learning Latin does not
imply that one pronounce it "con Italiano".
But if you want to learn it as a living language,
you need to live in the Vatican State for a couple
of years, because that is the only place in the world
where it is still used for conversational purposes,
(or so I've heard) But Vatican pronounciation is
likely to be very Italian. And so you'd probably
end up studying Italian in paralell.

Keth

Hello, thought I would introduce myself.  I'm Mark Mellblom and I studied
Old Norse as part of an undergraduate degree in anthropology at the
University of Wyoming over 20 years ago.  Never too late to re-learn.  For
resources, I found my UC Berkeley Introduction to Medieval Icelandic by
Chapman, and my copy of Introduction to Old Norse by Gordon.    I'm super
rusty, but looking over the material brought back many good memories.
Thanks, and wish me luck.
Mark

Greetings Mr. Warlord,


>Hail to all of you brothers of the Nordic Society. From the far lands
>of Chile I greet you and wish well.

Yeah; hail to thee too.


>First of all, allow me to introduce myself. My name is Fernando
>Silva (I prefer the nicknames Raptor the Warlord or Etzel), I´m 17
>and I love everything nordic related. This is the first ML I´ve ever
>entered so I don´t know the system very much. Hopefully I´ll get the
>hang of it pretty soon.

Writing like a normal person usually helps :-) This is just a
language list; if you want to be 'in character' or assume a persona
you might consider getting involved with the SCA.


>To the guys behind the course: Congratulations. You´ve made a great
>work.

Thank you.


>Now, I have some questions and i would thank anyone who can give me
>some answers:
>Are those 11 lessons all there is of the course or there´s more?
>and How fast do the lessons get updated (no precision needed, of
>course)?

Allow me to quote from the page:

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
The first part of the course has been completed. It consists of the
following material in this suggested order.

Lesson 1
Toon: The Spearman
Article: The Norse and English Tongues
Lesson 2
Toon: The Thieves
Toon: King Olaf's dream
Lesson 3
Toon: King Olaf's cheese
Lesson 4
Lesson 5
Lesson 6
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Reasons I haven't done any more:

1. I only know two people who have actually finished this first part
of the course.
2. My co-author, Óskar, has moved on to other things and is not
actively contributing material anymore. He does send an occasional
letter to the list, though. Óskar is the one with artistic talent,
I have none. Thus I am unable to produce more toons, which I felt
were an important part of this course. If someone who reads this
would be willing to collaborate with me in making more (with me
contributing the text and/or ideas and you contributing the drawings)
I would be interested in hearing from you. I cannot offer any sort
of payment.
3. My second year of engineering studies is much busier than my first.

Those reasons have led me to put lessons beyond #7 on hold. When I
do work on the course I'm polishing the first 6 lessons and working
on peripheral things (reader, sound files, runes).



>Thanx and HAIL to all of you out there. Please receive the greetings
>from a man from far away who didn´t have the good luck to be born on
>the Real Holy Lands of the North (not religiously related, of course)
>By the way, does anyone like Viking Metal? FAR VEL.
>HAIL AND KILL

Kill? Kill what? How did you come up with that?

Kveðja,
Haukur

Heilsa Friends i have a quick question. i am learning
Icelandic now and (of coarse old norse comes along)
and im wondering something. i have been saying Ma Hinn
A Hlaupa Ra(th)ur!, which to me has meant May The
Rivers Run Red! is that correct???((sorry i dont have
the symbol letters but you know the prounonciation))
--- Lazarus <lazarus@...> wrote:
> Here's a simple course on Phonology that I've found
> for anyone who is
> interested:
>
>
http://www.celt.stir.ac.uk/staff/HIGDOX/STEPHEN/PHONO/PHONOLG.HTM
>
> Warning: It does have sound files on the site but
> the task use a dialect of
> British English, not American English, for it's
> pronunication guidelines.
>
>


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> Heilsa Friends i have a quick question. i am learning
> Icelandic now and (of coarse old norse comes along)
> and im wondering something. i have been saying Ma Hinn
> A Hlaupa Ra(th)ur!, which to me has meant May The
> Rivers Run Red! is that correct???((sorry i dont have
> the symbol letters but you know the prounonciation))

No. It isn't. This sort of translation is something you
come up with by looking up individual words in a dictionary
and using them in an unmodified form for whatever needs
they have in the sentence.

May - Má (nominative, not the correct form here)

The - Hinn (the article cannot precede the noun without
an adjective in between, nor is this the correct gender
of the article)

River - Á (wrong number)

Run - Hlaupa (the word isn't used in this sense)

Red - Rauður (wrong gender again)

To say the same thing in real Icelandic you could use:

"Megi árnar roðna."

In other news "Heilsa" is not an Icelandic/Old Norse greeting.
It seems to be the result of a similar sort of translation style
as the phrase you quoted.  If you look up "to greet" in the
dictionary you will indeed get "heilsa" but that doesn't mean
that "heilsa" is an appropriate greeting.

Kveðja,
Haukur

Haukur,
What would the appropriate greeting be?
Jon

In other news "Heilsa" is not an Icelandic/Old Norse greeting.
It seems to be the result of a similar sort of translation style
as the phrase you quoted.  If you look up "to greet" in the
dictionary you will indeed get "heilsa" but that doesn't mean
that "heilsa" is an appropriate greeting.

Kveðja,
Haukur

> Haukur,
> What would the appropriate greeting be?
> Jon

Hello Jon,

That's probably another candidate for the FAQ.

I'll quote from Lesson 2:

---------------------------------
2.5 A greeting

The following forms can be used as greetings.
This is actually an adjective that is declining
according to gender and number but we'll talk about that later.

Heill! - to greet one man

Heil! - to greet one woman

Heilir! - to greet a group of men

Heilar! - to greet a group of women

Heil! - to greet a group including both sexes
---------------------------------

---------------------------------
4.2 Two half-strophes from the Sigdrífumál

- - -

Heill Dagr!

Heilir Dags synir!

Heil Nótt ok nipt!"

- - -

- - -

Heilir Æsir!

Heilar Ásynjur!

Heil sjá in fjölnýta fold!"

- - -

Compare the greeting carefully with chapter 2.5; notice how it changes according
to gender and number.
"Hail, Day!
Hail, Day's sons!
Hail, Night and [her] sister!"

"Hail, Æsir (gods)!
Hail, Ásynjur (goddesses)!
Hail, bountiful earth!"
---------------------------------

Note that both Earth and Night are female entities in the mythology (and that
'fold' and 'nótt' are
feminine words).

For a more modern greeting try 'sæll' which is declined the same way.

Kveðja,
Haukur

> May - Má (nominative, not the correct form here)

Sorry; that's an error. A verb doesn't have a nominative
of course :-) I meant to say 'indicative'. The correct
form here is the subjunctive.

Another solution would be to do without 'mega' altogether
and put the main verb in subjunctive to convey the 'may...'
meaning. Futhermore the article might simply be dropped:

"Ár roðni."

alternatively:

"Roðni ár."

When it's put that way it sounds like it's straight out of
Busla's Prayer - a powerful curse from Bósa saga ok Herrauðs.

Here's a part of one strophe that illustrates this sentence
structure (noun in nominative + verb in subjunctive) very well:

Villist vættir,
verði ódæmi,
hristist hamrar,
heimr sturlist,
versni veðrátta...

May wights get lost,
May monstrous things come to pass,
May cliffs shake,
May the world grow mad,
May the weather get worse...

It goes on and on. It seems to me that "May the rivers run red with blood"
would fit in nicely :-)

Kveðja,
Haukur

P.S.  Can't resist quoting some more of Buslubæn:

Tröll ok álfar
ok töfranornir,
búar, bergrisar
brenni þínar hallir,
hati þik hrímþursar,
hestar streði þik,
stráin stangi þik,
en stormar æri þik,
ok vei verði þér,
nema þú vilja minn gerir.

Trolls and elves and magical witches, farmers and mountain giants burn thy
halls.
May rime-giants hate thee, may horses penetrate* thee, may straws sting you
and storms drive you mad and woe unto thee unless thou doest as I will.

* Can be substituted for a four letter word if one is so inclined.

> > May - Má (nominative, not the correct form here)
>
> Sorry; that's an error. A verb doesn't have a nominative
> of course :-) I meant to say 'indicative'. The correct
> form here is the subjunctive.
>
> Another solution would be to do without 'mega' altogether
> and put the main verb in subjunctive to convey the 'may...'
> meaning. Futhermore the article might simply be dropped:
>
> "Ár roðni."
>
> alternatively:
>
> "Roðni ár."
>
> When it's put that way it sounds like it's straight out of
> Busla's Prayer - a powerful curse from Bósa saga ok Herrauðs.
>
> Here's a part of one strophe that illustrates this sentence
> structure (noun in nominative + verb in subjunctive) very well:
>
> Villist vættir,
> verði ódæmi,
> hristist hamrar,
> heimr sturlist,
> versni veðrátta...
>
> May wights get lost,
> May monstrous things come to pass,
> May cliffs shake,
> May the world grow mad,
> May the weather get worse...
>
> It goes on and on. It seems to me that "May the rivers run red with blood"
> would fit in nicely :-)
>
> Kveðja,
> Haukur
>
> P.S.  Can't resist quoting some more of Buslubæn:
>
> Tröll ok álfar
> ok töfranornir,
> búar, bergrisar
> brenni þínar hallir,
> hati þik hrímþursar,
> hestar streði þik,
> stráin stangi þik,
> en stormar æri þik,
> ok vei verði þér,
> nema þú vilja minn gerir.
>
> Trolls and elves and magical witches, farmers and mountain giants burn thy
halls.
> May rime-giants hate thee, may horses penetrate* thee, may straws sting you
> and storms drive you mad and woe unto thee unless thou doest as I will.
>
> * Can be substituted for a four letter word if one is so inclined.
>
>
> Sumir hafa kvæði...
> ...aðrir spakmæli.
>
> - Keth
>
> Homepage: http://www.hi.is/~haukurth/norse/
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> norse_course-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>
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>
>

A quick question about Solutions 1. Exer. 3.5

3.5
(E) A king is called Sigurðr. He owns a sword but not a horse. Óláfr is also
a king. He owns a horse. Sigurðr kills Óláfr and takes the horse.
(ON) Heitir konungr Sigurðr. Á hann brand en hest eigi. Óláfr heitir ok
konungr. Hest á hann. Sigurðr vegr Óláf ok tekr hestinn.
I would have translated this to  Óláfr er ok konungr.  and used 'to be'
instead of 'is called'.
Could you explain?
Thank you, I am enjoying the course.
Mark Mellblom

I accidentally posted an empty message
to the list. I'm sorry.

What I was going to say, before vim crashed
on me and I mistakenly told elm to send the
letter anyway, was this:

We seem to have come upon a fertile theme with
those rivers. The Krákumál has two lines that
go like this:

Öll var unda gjaldri
á sú roðin heitu.

Meaning: "All that river was reddened with the
sea of wounds [blood]."

Kveðja,
Haukur

Haukur,

My apologies for taking so long to reply.

>> Personal Testimony:
>> "Thanks to the Norse Course, my friend and I
>> can enjoy a relatively lengthy
>> discussion of black cheese and long swords."

> :D I think I'll put that on the homepage if you'll
> allow.

Please do!

> Very quickly the relationship between modern
> Icelandic and Old Norse is similar to the
> relationship between the English you speak
> and the English of the King James Bible.

Thank you. I suspected this was probably the case.
And, yes, I have read the following e-mails which
also used this analogy.

> Not quite. Our word for electricity is 'rafmagn';
> made from 'raf' meaning amber and 'magn' meaning
> might or power. Thus 'rafmagn' is amber-power.
> This is, more or less, a translation of the greek
> word.

That sounds like a practical approach.

This makes me wonder.
Do you know how the pre-modern Old Norse speakers
treated unfamiliar objects? That is, when they
encountered something for the first time, did
they tend to create new names, or would they
adopt the names used by the people who
introduced them to the thing?

Cheers,
Mike

__________________________________________________
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Thanks Haukur,
I have just started Lesson 2 and hadn't gotten that far.
Jon

Hello Haukur,
You wrote:
>I accidentally posted an empty message
>to the list. I'm sorry.

Yes, I think all of Yahoo has serious problems now.


I have a question for you that concerns the word "værr" (adj.):

  « Verit er nú meðan vert er. »

How would you translate this to English?

I am interested in the word "værr".
Why is it given the form vært here?
Can you also say:

  « Verit erum nú meðan vert er. »

(no, I think everything is fine, except for the Yahoo
problems :) I just happened to run into this word "værr"
and then this proverb happened to be given as example.

;o)

Best regards
Keth




>What I was going to say, before vim crashed
>on me and I mistakenly told elm to send the
>letter anyway, was this:
>
>We seem to have come upon a fertile theme with
>those rivers. The Krákumál has two lines that
>go like this:
>
>Öll var unda gjaldri
>á sú roðin heitu.
>
>Meaning: "All that river was reddened with the
>sea of wounds [blood]."
>
>Kveðja,
>Haukur