Hi Sjur,

You wrote:

<Since Latin has been a spoken language in
<the church and in the academical world anyway, there is no problem to
<make such a learning tape.

Precisely, but this has little to do with reconstructive phonology. As
you pointed out Latin was used as an academic, administrative and sacred
language to this day, but in its various national pronunciations.
Nowadays many Latin teachers follow more closely the reconstructed and
attested pronunciation of the classical or "golden" Latin period. This I
find preferable. Of course it always comes down to the reader being able
to emulate these sounds and give a rough approximation of what it "could
have sounded like". This can also be done for Old Norse, as no single
variety of modern Scandinavian is phonologically so conservative to have
retained a general character of Old Norse. Even Icelandic, which has
undergone tremendous changes since the Old Norse period, not to mention
the scarcely attested Viking period.

<I don't know Ancient Greek to well to say anything about it, but I
<assume that it has no natural offspring.

I suppose one could call the "Katheravousa" variety of Greek an academic
a offspring of Old Greek. In the past 30 years this variety has been
largely replaced by the "Dimotiki" "the people's language" (i.e.
Standard Modern Greek). Katheravousa is used only in the judicial
language, in universities and a few newspapers. Most of the Greek
emigrants throughout the world still feel that "Katheravousa" ought to
be standard Greek and deplore the switch to Dimotiki. Off course the
pronunciation, like modern Latin is not like Old Greek, but it uses
forms and lexical items found in the ancient language.

<So, the reason that Old Norse is special is that
<(1) It has a close offspring which can be "taped" instead,
<(2) the amount of potential users is rather small since it is the
<language of the Icelandic Sagas, not the root language of western
<civilization.

<(1) and (2) points in the direction that Old Norse learning tapes are
<quite uninteresting (just take a Modern Icelandic one instead). But,
<I should point out that, personally, I like to reconstruct Old Norse
<pronunciation.

<A question: If such an Old Norse learning tape would be recorded,
<which nationality or region should the reader be from (i.e. what
<accent should he have)? If we identify Old Norse with Old Icelandic
<it is obvious. I wouldn't make that identification. I would prefer a
<reader from my own region. A Scanian would prefer a Scanian reader. A
<Gutlander would prefer a Gutlandic reader. A Finland-swede would
<prefer a Finland-Swedish reader. Etc.

As a reconstructed Old Norse phonology would be unlike Finland-Swedish,
Gulandish or Scanian, it wouldn't matter where the speaker came from.
S/he wouldn't even have to be Scandinavian.

I'm sure it would be helpful to record Old Icelandic/Norse literary
works and give a carefully reconstructed sound-guide to the
reconstructed phonemes as well as the metre intended in recital. I
disagree with you on your latter point.

I can recommend the CD "Edda - Myths from Medieval Iceland" by
Sequentia, sung recordings of part of the Edda using a reconstructed
Norse phonemic system.

Dan






--- In norse_course@yahoogroups.com, "Lewis, Raymond J."
<lewisrj@a...> wrote:
> Why - yes! I do believe that you should be in bed!
>
> I've seen other posts by you - so I know that you're not daft or
anything.
> Did you know, my good man, that one can, at this very moment,
purchase audio
>
> tapes on Classical Latin and Ancient Greek pronunciation? Now -
I've been
> told
> that neither the Romans or the Old Greeks had recording equipment
and, since
> I
> am a rather smug modern, I'm inclined to believe it.  However,
since I'm
> also a
> really smart hick - I have an idea that the pronunciation of now
dead
> languages
> can be grasped at (i.e., reconstructed) by various means. Since you
are
> clearly
> a slick fellow, who knows many things, please let me know if I
might,
> perhaps,
> be, somewhat, on the right track here.  If you find that the
correct
> path be followed, or nearly so, please indicate why it is that Old
Norse is
> so
> incredibly special that others could not have gone about the task
of the
> reconstruction
> of the pronunciation thereof.  Since I, in fact, do not know that
there are
> no such
> tapes, your explanation will be most welcome.
>
> Raymond
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: sjuler
> To: norse_course@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: 7/29/2003 8:02 PM
> Subject: [norse_course] Sv: Re: Sv: thanks
>
> Heill,
>
> I write this message 2 a.m., I should be in my bed now :)
>
> The reason that I wrote "Are you really sure that there are Old
Norse
> learning tapes on the market out there!?" is that Dorilys was
asking
> for "Old Norse [...]learning tapes". As you know, there are no such
> tapes since Old Norse is not a spoken language (any more). This
> should have been realized by Dorilys (or be realized _now_).
>
> Sjul
>
>
> --- In norse_course@yahoogroups.com, "Lewis, Raymond J."
> <lewisrj@a...> wrote:
> > Say - weren't you the fellow that wrote:
> > ------------------------------------------------------------------
--
> ---
> > I usually write my posts around midnight. Maybe I should be in
bed
> > then :D
> > Sjul
> > ------------------------------------------------------------------
--
> ---
> >
> > After reading this I'd have to say ----------------------->>>
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: sjuler
> > To: norse_course@yahoogroups.com
> > Sent: 7/26/2003 4:16 PM
> > Subject: [norse_course] Andsvar: thanks
> >
> > Are you really sure that there are Old Norse learning tapes on
the
> > market out there!? I knew that the Norse culture was amongst the
> most
> > advanced ones in the medieval, but I didn't know they invented a
> > sound recording system...
> >
> > /Sjuler
> >
> > ----------------------->>>
> >
> > that it looks like you've stayed up too late again - eh?
> >
> > Raymond
> > ------------------------------------------------------------------
-
> >
> > --- In norse_course@yahoogroups.com, Dorilys Turner
<khorrki@y...>
> > wrote:
> > > Thanks for the wonderful pages you've sent so far. Do you know
> > where to get Old Norse or Icelandic language learning tapes, & @
> what
> > price?   Sunshine & Rain!
> > >
> > >
> > > blessings, dorilys
> > >
> > >
> > > ---------------------------------




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> I'm sure it would be helpful to record Old Icelandic/Norse literary
> works and give a carefully reconstructed sound-guide to the
> reconstructed phonemes as well as the metre intended in recital. I
> disagree with you on your latter point.
>
> I can recommend the CD "Edda - Myths from Medieval Iceland" by
> Sequentia, sung recordings of part of the Edda using a reconstructed
> Norse phonemic system.

I hear that from time to time. I also saw that Renee praised
their new album; saying the phonetic reconstruction was impeccable.
See here, rather far down the page:

http://glosses.net/archives/cat_old_norse.php

Anyway, Óskar and I reviewed their Myth CD during the heyday
of this list. Our reviews can be found here:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/norse_course/message/693
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/norse_course/message/694

We independently came to almost exactly the same conclusions.
(But they need not be the only valid ones.)

Kveđja,
Haukur

It is very nice to hear about this CD since I've been listening to it for
a while and wondered what the rest of the world (or - rather - our very
little part of it) thought. I must admit the the rolling (and rolling,
and rolling, and ...) r's had me a bit confused. In the U.S., spanish
speakers are the only individuals, nearby, known for any r-rolling at
all. Yet, no self-respecting, spanish speaking individual would make
such a career out of r-rolling - as far as I know.  Still, the music, in
my opinion, is quite good and I am very happy to have actually purchased
the CD.  Even the bombastic telling of Thor's cross-dressing is very
enjoyable to hear - at least - to someone in - like - Arizona or
something.

Raymond

-----Original Message-----
From: Haukur Thorgeirsson
To: norse_course@yahoogroups.com
Sent: 8/1/2003 9:49 AM
Subject: Re: [norse_course] Re: Sleepless in .se

> I'm sure it would be helpful to record Old Icelandic/Norse literary
> works and give a carefully reconstructed sound-guide to the
> reconstructed phonemes as well as the metre intended in recital. I
> disagree with you on your latter point.
>
> I can recommend the CD "Edda - Myths from Medieval Iceland" by
> Sequentia, sung recordings of part of the Edda using a reconstructed
> Norse phonemic system.

I hear that from time to time. I also saw that Renee praised
their new album; saying the phonetic reconstruction was impeccable.
See here, rather far down the page:

http://glosses.net/archives/cat_old_norse.php
<http://glosses.net/archives/cat_old_norse.php>

Anyway, Óskar and I reviewed their Myth CD during the heyday
of this list. Our reviews can be found here:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/norse_course/message/693
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/norse_course/message/693>
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/norse_course/message/694
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/norse_course/message/694>

We independently came to almost exactly the same conclusions.
(But they need not be the only valid ones.)

Kveđja,
Haukur

Friends -

There's a CD #05472-77381-2 on the DHM (deutch harmonia mundi) label
by the group Sequentia called Edda. It is supposed to be in Old
Norse, and I don't have any trouble following it with the ON text I
have.  It's NOT a learning tape, but if you can get an aesthetic
experience at the same time, why not?

Nancy

I must admit that I don't understand what Unicode has to do with whether
one can us norse characters in Word under an OSX platform? It sounds like
you are saying that you can't gain access to, for example, ţ, ř, or đ?
If so, what have you tried? Have you tried ISO characters, like those
recommended previously (hold down the ALT key and enter at the number pad
0254 and release the ALT key to get a ţ)? Have you used, within Word, the
Symbol command within the Insert menu and scanned the characters
available to you? There are many ways of entering characters, in Windows
at least. Also, I'm curious what Digest Number 654 refers to.

What say you my most admirable and excellent Hobbit with the impossible
name?

Raymond


-----Original Message-----
From: BilboFrodoSam@...
To: norse_course@yahoogroups.com
Sent: 8/2/2003 12:44 PM
Subject: Re: [norse_course] Digest Number 654

Im using OSX and Microsoft Word doesn't support Unicode. How can I still
use norse characters in Word?

Hi, Dan!

This exchange is only marginally on-topic but I hope
no-one minds our discussing Sequentia a bit more.

> I doubt this CD was recorded with the
> intent of making it into an academic exercise on reconstructing a sung
> version of the “Edda” as it was performed in mediaeval Iceland.

I'm sure it is nowhere explicitly stated but that's
the impression many people seem to be getting.


> It is a modern artistic expression
> of an old text, not more no less.

Certainly. But why would they do all this research
if their goal wasn't, at least partially, to reconstruct
something?


> To criticize it under this aspect does not do the craftsmanship and
> effort justice that was put into it.

The aspect we were asked (by more than one person)
to criticize was the accuracy of the pronunciation.
As I said two years ago:

"Obviously the members of Sequentia are musicians
(not linguists) and they will have to be judged for the quality
of their music. I don't know much of anything about music so
you shouldn't take my comments about it very seriously."

As for accuracy of pronunciation we found it mostly absent.


> And how would you know how the Edda was performed in the first place?
> Were you there? Even darwing conclusions from modern Icelandic, Faeroes,
> and Norwegian traditional folk music doesn’t really help, because
> performace and musical styles develop and change over time at least as
> much as language does.

Even so, later Icelandic and Faroese folk songs would surely
be a better approximation than, say, traditional Japanese music
or modern opera. And this criticism was founded on their own
claims. They said they'd listened to a whole lot of traditional
Nordic music - yet I hardly heard a trace of that in their
performance. Neither did Óskar.

But it so happens that now we do have someone on this list
who is much better qualified to judge Sequentia's music.
Konrad, what do you think?

By all means, don't let me ruin your enjoyment of the music.
I keep giving the impression that I hated this CD but that's
not the case at all. I enjoyed some of the melodies. I'd even
like to own it but I'd rather prefer not to pay for it ;-)

Kveđja,
Haukur

-----Original Message-----
From: haukurth@...
To: norse_course@yahoogroups.com
Sent: 8/3/2003 10:23 AM
Subject: Re: [norse_course] sequentia

Hi, Dan!

This exchange is only marginally on-topic but I hope
no-one minds our discussing Sequentia a bit more.

--------------------------------------------------------------------
Come now - if you're going to be a moderator then you had better
deliberate a bit more carefully on your verdicts. I like the fact
that you and smiley keep the sex chat out of the discussion - unlike
other, public groups. Still, your judgements can be annoying to the
Aquarius in me.

Dan is making a very good point about PRONOUNCEMENTS on Old Norse
PRONUNCIATION. There's a number of you guys, out there, who either now
talk, or have talked about ON pronunciation like its some static thing. Now
don't even start up with how you'all make it clear that language is fluid
and ever-changing. I recognize that you do state this as a fact, still, your
left hand does not communicate well with your right and pronouncements tend
to border on the ludicrously fixed. I can meet people on the bus today that
have such a drastically different accent from me that I can scarcely
understand about half of what they be talking about - and they were born and
raised but 500 miles from my present location within the sphere of
homogenous and all pervasive media coverage dominated by a West Coast accent
(like which I have). It looks as if some
people are so desperate to recreate the past that they are willing to
sacrifice the obvious in it's attainment.

Still, with that said, efforts to recreate the past are not in vain and
we must applaud efforts to conserve some of what has been needlessly
lost. My request is that you not get all picky and petty about what you've
found and try to blanket the world with it. It turns truly useful
information into something more like propaganda.

This is where Sequentia comes in.  They did claim the music to be based
upon an extrapolation of the musical traditions of Medieval Iceland and
did claim that significant efforts were made to recreate both the music
and speech of the time and place. With this in mind, it is obvious that
the inhabitants of Modern Iceland are in a better position to evaluate
Sequentia's claims than the rest of us. Therefore, I can't say that any
of us should fault Haukur and Oskar for their naturally biased evaluations.
It's the bias that we're counting on to give us information not available
from any other source.

We need to be aware of the biases of others as well as our own - otherwise,
we're bound to get a rather distorted view of the world past and present.

Raymond
----------------------------------------------------------------------

> I doubt this CD was recorded with the
> intent of making it into an academic exercise on reconstructing a sung
> version of the "Edda" as it was performed in mediaeval Iceland.

I'm sure it is nowhere explicitly stated but that's
the impression many people seem to be getting.


> It is a modern artistic expression
> of an old text, not more no less.

Certainly. But why would they do all this research
if their goal wasn't, at least partially, to reconstruct
something?


> To criticize it under this aspect does not do the craftsmanship and
> effort justice that was put into it.

The aspect we were asked (by more than one person)
to criticize was the accuracy of the pronunciation.
As I said two years ago:

"Obviously the members of Sequentia are musicians
(not linguists) and they will have to be judged for the quality
of their music. I don't know much of anything about music so
you shouldn't take my comments about it very seriously."

As for accuracy of pronunciation we found it mostly absent.


> And how would you know how the Edda was performed in the first place?
> Were you there? Even darwing conclusions from modern Icelandic,
Faeroes,
> and Norwegian traditional folk music doesn't really help, because
> performace and musical styles develop and change over time at least as
> much as language does.

Even so, later Icelandic and Faroese folk songs would surely
be a better approximation than, say, traditional Japanese music
or modern opera. And this criticism was founded on their own
claims. They said they'd listened to a whole lot of traditional
Nordic music - yet I hardly heard a trace of that in their
performance. Neither did Óskar.

But it so happens that now we do have someone on this list
who is much better qualified to judge Sequentia's music.
Konrad, what do you think?

By all means, don't let me ruin your enjoyment of the music.
I keep giving the impression that I hated this CD but that's
not the case at all. I enjoyed some of the melodies. I'd even
like to own it but I'd rather prefer not to pay for it ;-)

Kveđja,
Haukur


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Homepage: http://www.hi.is/~haukurth/norse/
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Hi, Dan!
This exchange is only marginally on-topic but I hope
no-one minds our discussing Sequentia a bit more.

I doubt this CD was recorded with the
intent of making it into an academic exercise on reconstructing a sung
version of the “Edda” as it was performed in mediaeval Iceland.

I'm sure it is nowhere explicitly stated but that's
the impression many people seem to be getting.

It is a modern artistic expression
of an old text, not more no less.

Certainly. But why would they do all this research
if their goal wasn't, at least partially, to reconstruct
something?

To criticize it under this aspect does not do the craftsmanship and
effort justice that was put into it.

The aspect we were asked (by more than one person)
to criticize was the accuracy of the pronunciation.
As I said two years ago:
"Obviously the members of Sequentia are musicians
(not linguists) and they will have to be judged for the quality
of their music. I don't know much of anything about music so
you shouldn't take my comments about it very seriously."
As for accuracy of pronunciation we found it mostly absent.

And how would you know how the Edda was performed in the first place?
Were you there? Even darwing conclusions from modern Icelandic, Faeroes,
and Norwegian traditional folk music doesn’t really help, because
performace and musical styles develop and change over time at least as
much as language does.

Even so, later Icelandic and Faroese folk songs would surely
be a better approximation than, say, traditional Japanese music
or modern opera. And this criticism was founded on their own
claims. They said they'd listened to a whole lot of traditional
Nordic music - yet I hardly heard a trace of that in their
performance. Neither did Óskar.
But it so happens that now we do have someone on this list
who is much better qualified to judge Sequentia's music.
Konrad, what do you think?
By all means, don't let me ruin your enjoyment of the music.
I keep giving the impression that I hated this CD but that's
not the case at all. I enjoyed some of the melodies. I'd even
like to own it but I'd rather prefer not to pay for it ;-)
Kveðja,
Haukur
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-- Daniel Bray
dbray@...
School of Studies in Religion A20
University of Sydney NSW 2006 Australia
"Human history becomes more and more a race between education and catastrophe." H. G. Wells (1866 - 1946)

Hi Dan,

I think that the most important reason to make a recording in a
reconstructed Old Norse is that the metre recitation will be more
accurate (in theory). E.g., Modern Icelandic often has an extra
syllable (Eirikur instead of Eirikr) which makes a recitation
somewhat invalid.

/Sjur

>
> Hi Sjur,
>
> You wrote:
>
> <Since Latin has been a spoken language in
> <the church and in the academical world anyway, there is no problem
to
> <make such a learning tape.
>
> Precisely, but this has little to do with reconstructive phonology.
As
> you pointed out Latin was used as an academic, administrative and
sacred
> language to this day, but in its various national pronunciations.
> Nowadays many Latin teachers follow more closely the reconstructed
and
> attested pronunciation of the classical or "golden" Latin period.
This I
> find preferable. Of course it always comes down to the reader being
able
> to emulate these sounds and give a rough approximation of what
it "could
> have sounded like". This can also be done for Old Norse, as no
single
> variety of modern Scandinavian is phonologically so conservative to
have
> retained a general character of Old Norse. Even Icelandic, which has
> undergone tremendous changes since the Old Norse period, not to
mention
> the scarcely attested Viking period.
>
> <I don't know Ancient Greek to well to say anything about it, but I
> <assume that it has no natural offspring.
>
> I suppose one could call the "Katheravousa" variety of Greek an
academic
> a offspring of Old Greek. In the past 30 years this variety has been
> largely replaced by the "Dimotiki" "the people's language" (i.e.
> Standard Modern Greek). Katheravousa is used only in the judicial
> language, in universities and a few newspapers. Most of the Greek
> emigrants throughout the world still feel that "Katheravousa" ought
to
> be standard Greek and deplore the switch to Dimotiki. Off course the
> pronunciation, like modern Latin is not like Old Greek, but it uses
> forms and lexical items found in the ancient language.
>
> <So, the reason that Old Norse is special is that
> <(1) It has a close offspring which can be "taped" instead,
> <(2) the amount of potential users is rather small since it is the
> <language of the Icelandic Sagas, not the root language of western
> <civilization.
>
> <(1) and (2) points in the direction that Old Norse learning tapes
are
> <quite uninteresting (just take a Modern Icelandic one instead).
But,
> <I should point out that, personally, I like to reconstruct Old
Norse
> <pronunciation.
>
> <A question: If such an Old Norse learning tape would be recorded,
> <which nationality or region should the reader be from (i.e. what
> <accent should he have)? If we identify Old Norse with Old
Icelandic
> <it is obvious. I wouldn't make that identification. I would prefer
a
> <reader from my own region. A Scanian would prefer a Scanian
reader. A
> <Gutlander would prefer a Gutlandic reader. A Finland-swede would
> <prefer a Finland-Swedish reader. Etc.
>
> As a reconstructed Old Norse phonology would be unlike Finland-
Swedish,
> Gulandish or Scanian, it wouldn't matter where the speaker came
from.
> S/he wouldn't even have to be Scandinavian.
>
> I'm sure it would be helpful to record Old Icelandic/Norse literary
> works and give a carefully reconstructed sound-guide to the
> reconstructed phonemes as well as the metre intended in recital. I
> disagree with you on your latter point.
>
> I can recommend the CD "Edda - Myths from Medieval Iceland" by
> Sequentia, sung recordings of part of the Edda using a reconstructed
> Norse phonemic system.
>
> Dan
>
>

Hello, you lot!

I've often heard, and there are some excellent
recent examples on this list, a view towards
reconstructing an Old Norse pronunciation that
goes something like this:

"Since we don't know exactly how Old Norse was
pronounced any old pronunciation will do."

or

"English is pronounced any number of ways! Some
of its dialects are not even mutually intelligible.
Surely that shows that any criticism of a particular
attempt of pronouncing Old Norse is ill founded."

To serve as a sort of counterexample to this theory
I've recorded the beginning of an old propoganda
speech that I think is familiar to many English speakers.

I read the text as if I knew absolutely no English and
with Icelandic pronunciation of the words. Sort of like
I might have tried reading it when I was 6 years old
(I remember pronouncing 'you' in three syllables).

http://www.hi.is/~haukurth/speech.wav

Sure there are many valid ways of pronouncing English
but I think we can agree: THIS ISN'T ONE OF THEM!

Similarly, even though many different pronunciation
schemes for Old Norse could be presented it is nevertheless
possible to criticize any given performance for basic
errors such as running together two distinct phonemes.

As for reconstructing music the same probably holds.
Even if we don't know exactly how it was performed
that doesn't mean that one guess is as good as the next.

- - -

But let me state for the record (as I did in my
original review).

* I reviewed the accuracy of Sequentia's pronunciation
because I was asked to do so. I think Sequentia should
be judged by their music, not their pronunciation.

* I don't know enough about music to have a very educated
opinion on Sequentia's performance. To me their work didn't
sound like it was influenced much by Nordic folk music.
That's all I can say.

Regards,
Haukur

Hey, Sjuler.

> I think that the most important reason to make a recording in a
> reconstructed Old Norse is that the metre recitation will be more
> accurate (in theory). E.g., Modern Icelandic often has an extra
> syllable (Eirikur instead of Eirikr) which makes a recitation
> somewhat invalid.

Yes. I suppose. Another metrical issue is syllable length which
is important in the dróttkvćtt metres. In Old Norse, as in Latin
and Greek, there should be short and long syllables. In modern
Icelandic, however, all syllables are "long".

So, in theory, there may be something to gain from an accurate
reconstructed pronunciation. But to get the syllable length
right it would probably be best to get a Finnish speaker to
read. Finnish (and I think Estonian too) distinguishes
syllables like: at, aat, att and aatt by length of the sounds.

Any takers?

Kveđja,
Haukur

Hi Dan(s)!

> Do you know of any recordings of traditional folk ballads or the like,
> that would give us a better idea of how it should sound?

I'm trying to tell you I don't know how it should sound! :)
But I can recommend the CD Voices (Raddir) for traditional
Icelandic music. Be aware that the typical Icelander is
probably not aware what constitutes to the older Icelandic
musical traditions. Poetry by the romantic poets sung to
tunes by 19th century German composers may be his idea of
a folk song ;)

The Faroese musical tradition is somewhat more alive and even
a random group of natives can probably perform something for you.

Kveđja,
Haukur

God afton, bäste Hök Torgersson.


> Hey, Sjuler.
>
> > I think that the most important reason to make a recording in a
> > reconstructed Old Norse is that the metre recitation will be more
> > accurate (in theory). E.g., Modern Icelandic often has an extra
> > syllable (Eirikur instead of Eirikr) which makes a recitation
> > somewhat invalid.
>
> Yes. I suppose. Another metrical issue is syllable length which
> is important in the dróttkvćtt metres. In Old Norse, as in Latin
> and Greek, there should be short and long syllables. In modern
> Icelandic, however, all syllables are "long".

This is perhaps even more important in a reconstruction since
syllable addings (bátr > bátur) are less common than syllable
lengthenings (bera > beera).



>
> So, in theory, there may be something to gain from an accurate
> reconstructed pronunciation. But to get the syllable length
> right it would probably be best to get a Finnish speaker to
> read. Finnish (and I think Estonian too) distinguishes
> syllables like: at, aat, att and aatt by length of the sounds.
>


How about the grave accent in Old Norse, did it exist? Or to be more
specific, did a 13th century icelander use the grave accent. If so,
was this feature of importance in metres? And if it was, a Finnish
guy shouldn't really make the recording. I know only two areas in
modern Scandinavia which have preserved both the syllable lengths
(short, long and "super long") and the grave accent, and they are
Dalecarlian and Österbottniska. Maybe we should let someone from
Älvdalen record Old Norse metres? (the grave accent makes it sound
more alive in my ears - icelanders, like e.g. Haukur, tend to
resemble Arnold Scwarzenegger in the ears of a Scandinavian which
uses the grave accent)

(Note: Many areas in Sweden and Finland have preserved both the short
syllables and the grave accent; my own dialect is to some extent one
of them)




> Any takers?
>

Maybe we should contact Bengt Ĺkerberg from Ulum Dalska (We shall
speak Dalecarlian)?
Email to Ulum Dalska: ulumdalska@...
Here are some recordings in Dalecarlian of some poems which Bengt has
performed:
http://www.geocities.com/jepe2503/hogsvenska/dalska_dikter.html

If you like the Österbottnish accent better, maybe we should let one
from Österbotten make the recording. This is how the dialect sounds
like:
http://swedia.ling.umu.se/Finland/Osterbotten/Vora/ow.html

> Kveđja,
> Haukur

Hälsningar,
Sjuler

--- In norse_course@yahoogroups.com, haukurth@h... wrote:
> Hi, Dan!
>
> This exchange is only marginally on-topic but I hope
> no-one minds our discussing Sequentia a bit more.
>
> > I doubt this CD was recorded with the
> > intent of making it into an academic exercise on reconstructing a sung
> > version of the "Edda?as it was performed in mediaeval Iceland.
>
> I'm sure it is nowhere explicitly stated but that's
> the impression many people seem to be getting.

I got this impression as well. Heimir sent Sequentia to Norway, or at least
made them listen to volumes of Norwegian traditional music, while the group
also studied and listened to Icelandic and Faroese poetry singing. Despite
this, I hear very little of these authentic sources in their recordings. In
truth,
the originals are far more authentic as far as Nordic tradition is concerned.
The musicians in Sequentia are fine and highly trained specialists, but they
simply lack the many years of highly specialized training, and the uniquely
Nordic sensibility, which are absolutely required to perform this music. The
Sequentia group make highly acclaimed recordings of Hildegard Von Bingen.
These and other recordings are enough to secure the group's position as a
very important and talented players in European medieaval music. The Edda
recording will not be counted among their greatest achievements. While the
playing is technically excellent and the compositional sense sound, the style
and emotional expression conflicts with both the material and the received
tradition of Nordic music.

> > It is a modern artistic expression
> > of an old text, not more no less.
>
> Certainly. But why would they do all this research
> if their goal wasn't, at least partially, to reconstruct
> something?

Reconstruction was a stated goal according to my reading of the writings
which accompanied their Edda CD. However, as a performer of Nordic
traditional music myself, I see no need to reconstruct Nordic music. The
tradition did survive in Norway, despite the fact that extreme poverty and
sustained persecutions lead to the extinction, or near extinction, of Nordic
traditional music throughout the rest of Scandinavia. History has played its
cruel tricks on the Scandinavians. Nevertheless, the ancient gemstone of
Nordic traditional music did survive. Passed on note for note from teacher to
student generation after generation, this extremely intricate, and melodically
and rythmically complex, tonal treasure barely survived the ravages of man
and time. It lost nothing of its raw and primordial power. This extraordinary
music represents an unique and exceptional survival in European history. It
has elements which are so old that one has to travel all the way to India to
experience these same elements. Not surprisingly, Norse traditional music
has often been mistaken for Indian, or other oriental, traditional music.


> > To criticize it under this aspect does not do the craftsmanship and
> > effort justice that was put into it.
>
> The aspect we were asked (by more than one person)
> to criticize was the accuracy of the pronunciation.
> As I said two years ago:
>
> "Obviously the members of Sequentia are musicians
> (not linguists) and they will have to be judged for the quality
> of their music. I don't know much of anything about music so
> you shouldn't take my comments about it very seriously."
>
> As for accuracy of pronunciation we found it mostly absent.

The singing is excellent, but not in accordance with Nordic traditional music.
The pronunciation is poor. Whatever pronunciation system is adopted for a
sung language, the same sounds sound always be pronounced the same.
This is also true as regards vowal and consonantal length. In the Sequentian
recording, one can hear the same sounds and sequences pronounced with
various articulations, a feature highly uncharacteristic of native speech.

> > And how would you know how the Edda was performed in the first place?

The Edda is being performed every day. Like the ancient and traditional music
of the Nordic folk, the Edda is always growing and slowly accumulating new
jewels in its crown. Members of every generation have participated in this
gradual and careful evolution.

> > Were you there? Even darwing conclusions from modern Icelandic,
Faeroes,
> > and Norwegian traditional folk music doesn't really help, because
> > performace and musical styles develop and change over time at least as
> > much as language does.

In the case of Nordic traditional music, this development has been so slow
that musicologists describe the music as "frozen" or "petrified". There are
many reasons for this. Let me mention a few. To start with, Nordic traditional
music was passed on using natural tunings not used in other European music,
thus requiring new students to adopt an overall tonal system, as well as many
tunings, which are incompatible with other European music. Additionally, the
tradition has been such that highly intricate, often microtonal, miniature
master-
pieces were learned note for note, or at least nearly so, by each succeeding
generation of traditional musicians, many players spending their entire lifetime
mastering the music. Finally, the traditional musicians have been more or less
isolated inhabitants of country districts until relatively modern times,
travelling
from district to district to play weddings, dances, parties and funerals. As is
often the case even today, the audiences demanded recognizable tunes and
the traditional playing which they had grown up with.


> Even so, later Icelandic and Faroese folk songs would surely
> be a better approximation than, say, traditional Japanese music
> or modern opera. And this criticism was founded on their own
> claims. They said they'd listened to a whole lot of traditional
> Nordic music - yet I hardly heard a trace of that in their
> performance. Neither did ?kar.

Agreed. I play Icelandic and other traditional Nordic folksongs and hear little
such influence in the Sequentian recording.


> But it so happens that now we do have someone on this list
> who is much better qualified to judge Sequentia's music.
> Konrad, what do you think?

That would be me. My qualification is that I play Nordic traditional music, both
folksongs and intricate traditional masterpieces. I am a devout adherant and
religious student of the masters and of traditional playing. The music and the
poetry are my whole life.

Regards,
Konrad.


> By all means, don't let me ruin your enjoyment of the music.
> I keep giving the impression that I hated this CD but that's
> not the case at all. I enjoyed some of the melodies. I'd even
> like to own it but I'd rather prefer not to pay for it ;-)
>
> Kve?a,
> Haukur

--- In norse_course@yahoogroups.com, Daniel Bray <dbray@m...> wrote:
> Heill Haukur!
>
> I have a copy of the Sequentia CD, and even as a relative novice, I
> found numerous errors in pronunciation.

As did I.

    I also was somewhat disappointed
> that the style owes more to Gregorian chanting than to medieval songs or
> folk songs that I've heard.

A correct reading, in my opinion.

    The metre of Eddic poetry should, in my
> mind, lend to it a certain rhythm, which I didn't find at all on the
> Sequentia production.

The Eddic metres match the rhythms of Nordic traditional music. The match is
at times, in fact, so extact that it hardly matters for purposes of time whether
one sings or simply speaks the verses. By far the most difficult part lies in
understanding the emotional content of the poetry and how to express this
within the strict and conservative form of the inherited traditional music.
There
is, however, no other way to express this poetry in music, nor will there ever
be. Both the poetry and the music are organic growths from the same soil.

Regards,
Konrad.


  That being said, I still quite enjoy it as a
> musical production. Do you know of any recordings of traditional folk
> ballads or the like, that would give us a better idea of how it should
> sound?
>
> Kve?a,
>
> (the other) Dan
>
> haukurth@h... wrote:
>
> >Hi, Dan!
> >
> >This exchange is only marginally on-topic but I hope
> >no-one minds our discussing Sequentia a bit more.
> >
> >
> >
> >>I doubt this CD was recorded with the
> >>intent of making it into an academic exercise on reconstructing a sung
> >>version of the "Edda" as it was performed in mediaeval Iceland.
> >>
> >>
> >
> >I'm sure it is nowhere explicitly stated but that's
> >the impression many people seem to be getting.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >>It is a modern artistic expression
> >>of an old text, not more no less.
> >>
> >>
> >
> >Certainly. But why would they do all this research
> >if their goal wasn't, at least partially, to reconstruct
> >something?
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >>To criticize it under this aspect does not do the craftsmanship and
> >>effort justice that was put into it.
> >>
> >>
> >
> >The aspect we were asked (by more than one person)
> >to criticize was the accuracy of the pronunciation.
> >As I said two years ago:
> >
> >"Obviously the members of Sequentia are musicians
> >(not linguists) and they will have to be judged for the quality
> >of their music. I don't know much of anything about music so
> >you shouldn't take my comments about it very seriously."
> >
> >As for accuracy of pronunciation we found it mostly absent.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >>And how would you know how the Edda was performed in the first place?
> >>Were you there? Even darwing conclusions from modern Icelandic,
Faeroes,
> >>and Norwegian traditional folk music doesn't really help, because
> >>performace and musical styles develop and change over time at least as
> >>much as language does.
> >>
> >>
> >
> >Even so, later Icelandic and Faroese folk songs would surely
> >be a better approximation than, say, traditional Japanese music
> >or modern opera. And this criticism was founded on their own
> >claims. They said they'd listened to a whole lot of traditional
> >Nordic music - yet I hardly heard a trace of that in their
> >performance. Neither did ?kar.
> >
> >But it so happens that now we do have someone on this list
> >who is much better qualified to judge Sequentia's music.
> >Konrad, what do you think?
> >
> >By all means, don't let me ruin your enjoyment of the music.
> >I keep giving the impression that I hated this CD but that's
> >not the case at all. I enjoyed some of the melodies. I'd even
> >like to own it but I'd rather prefer not to pay for it ;-)
> >
> >Kve?a,
> >Haukur
> >
> >
> >A Norse funny farm, overrun by smart people.
> >
> >Homepage: http://www.hi.is/~haukurth/norse/
> >
> >To escape from this funny farm try rattling off an e-mail to:
> >
> >norse_course-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> >
> >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
> --
> Daniel Bray
> dbray@m...
> School of Studies in Religion A20
> University of Sydney NSW 2006 Australia
>
> "Human history becomes more and more a race between education and
catastrophe." H. G. Wells (1866 - 1946)

Here is a sample article about Nordic traditional music, this one
taken from the English notes to a CD by Norwegian Sven Nyhus. The
article is very brief, but does give the reader some idea of what
this music is like. It was written by Gordon E. Tracie and chosen
randomly by me from a stack of CDs:

"Sven Nyhus is without a doubt the best known exponent of eastern
Norwegian folk music today. Born in 1932 in the heart of 'flatfele'
country, Österdalen, the son and grandson of noted country fiddlers,
Sven got his first fiddle at the age of nine. By the time he was
nineteen he had mastered his father's entire repertoire - over 200
tunes! Eager to further his extend his knowledge, he sought out
other older fiddlers, not only learning their melodies by ear, but
committing them to paper as well, for he realized that he had a
cultural duty to preserve this valuable legacy for posterity. Sven
is considered to be one of the most skilled annotators of fiddle
music in all of Scandinavia.

With the introduction of tape recording in the 1950s it was possible
to greatly expand the scope of collected material. Subsequently Sven
became director of an outstanding fiddle archive, Norsk Folkemussik-
samling (Norwegian Folk Music Collection) in Oslo. A superb
technician on both Hardangerfiddle and ordinary violin, Sven is also
very active as well in duets which often include his brother Olov.
Sven also runs an old-time dance orchestra which performs
extensively throughout Scandinavia, and which had made numerous long-
playing recordings. In 1974 the Nyhus brothers were among a
delegation of thirty-three folk musicians and dancers from Norway,
Sweden and Finland who were brought to the United States by the
Smithsonian Institute to perform at the Expo '74 World's Fair in
Spokane, Washington.

This recording was made in Sweden, produced by Swedish fiddler Björn
Stĺbi, a folk music colleague and close friend of Sven Nyhus.

Thanks to the lyrical genius of Edvard Grieg, the world at large is
considerably more familiar with the folk music idiom of Norway than
that of Sweden. A native of Bergen, on the West Coast of Norway,
Grieg was profoundly inspired by the music of Norway's national
instrument, the 8-string 'Hardingfele' (Hardangerfiddle), which is
indigenous to the western and southern districts of the land
(Specifically, Vestlandet: Hardanger, Setesdal, Telemark, Numedal,
Hallingdal, and Valdres). Much of this music reflects the distinc-
tive tonal effects brought forth by this unique folk instrument.

In eastern and northern Norway (Specifically, Österdalen, Gudbrands-
dalen, Tröndelag, Sunnmöre and Nordmöre and beyond) the folk music
tradition is carried on as it is in neighboring Sweden, by the
ordinary violin, called the 'flatfele' in Norwegian. Although there
are several rhythmic and melodic similarities in the music associat-
ed with the Hardanger-fiddle and regular fiddle, there is a signifi-
cant difference between the relatively free-form structure of west-
Norwegian tunes and the more rigid motif developments of east-Norweg-
ian tunes. Their respective individualities are further accentuated
by the fact that the Hardanger-fiddle and ordinary fiddle have very
little common access to melodies which are related.

To a great dgree the folk music of eastern Norway is more similar to
the folk music of Sweden that that of western Norway. For despite
the formidable Kjolen (The Keel) mountain range which so dramatical-
ly divides Norway and Sweden geographically, there has hardly been
any musical border between the two lands. Throughout the centuries a
thriving commerce has flourished along the old trade routes between
the mining town of Röros in Österdalen (The East Valley) of Norway
and the great copper center of Falun in Sweden's province of Dalarna
to the west. Not surprisingly, there was a corresponding cultural
exchange as well, and so the tradiational music and dance of the two
areas exhibit many similarities, having likely sprung from the same
source.

The most deeply-rooted dance rhythm in eastern Norway is the 'pols',
which is the Norwegian counterpart of the Swedish 'polska' (not to
be confused with the polka, a Continental rhythm of much later
origin). In triple meter, some hundreds of years older than, and un-
related to the waltz, the 'polska' reigned supreme as the national
dance of Sweden for over two centuries. The best preserved example
of this old dance form, however, is that which survives in the Röros
district in Norway. Though the Rörospols, as it is called, has
retained the figures which are today found only in fragmented form
in various parts of Dalarna across the border, its rhythm has
acquired a distictively Norwegian character.

Of musical modes in east Norwegian folk fiddling, Sven Nyhus
says: 'Most Röros tunes are played in major keys these days. But
many things suggest that the older fiddlers operated in an area of
tonality where the steps of the scale simply did not have fixed
intervals. In other words, from today's point of view, the tunes
came out being somewhere major and minor.'

Here is a brief continuation from the same CD notes about Norwegian
folk rhythms:

"Apart from the Marj (March), the oldest rhythms in Norwegian folk
music tradition, as heard on this album, are:

Gangar (walking-dance) in 6/8 meter
Sprinar (running-dance) in 3/4 meter
Halling (a man's acrobatic solo dance) in duple meter

The pols, in 3/4 triple meter, has been described in the text above
(see previous post).

The Vals (waltz), also in 3/4 meter, has three distinct forms
illustrated in this recording:

Springvals (running-walz), in quick tempo;
Nigvals (dip-walz), a particularly rollicking rhythm;
Stegvals (stride-waltz), in relatively slow tempo and likely related
to a pre-polska rhythmic form.

The Reinlender (Rheinlander), in double meter, the Norwegian equiv-
alent of the schottische.

Happy Nordic Journeys,
Konrad.

One of the stranger forms of Icelandic poetry is the
'trölla-slagur' or 'risa-slagur'. The words 'tröll' and
'risi' mean "troll" and "giant" but I'm not sure if
'slagur' means "fight, battle" here or perhaps
"poem" or even "dance". In any case the poems look
like they must have been danced to. Unfortunately no
description of the dance has come down to us.

The metre is peculiar. It looks like it is derived
from some of the intricate 'dróttkvćtt' metres but
the difference between the even and the odd lines
has been exaggerated.

Here is my favorite 'tröllaslagur'. The first 10 lines
are in the strange metre but the last 7 lines are in
a simpler limerick-like end-rhymed form.

Hríđ gríđar hörđ reiđ
hrönnum svo tönnum ađ mönnum
gnísti nistin gulls hast,
sá gangur var langur og strangur.
Söng spöngin seims grund
sjálfar heims álfur ţá skjálfa.
Dundu undir dverglönd
drósar viđ glósur á Ósi -
dansađi fansinn ós unns
svo öllum lá tröllum viđ föllum.
Sá dagur er mér í minni
međur ţjáning sinni;
hestar sprungu
af harki ţungu,
heitur sem ţeim brynni
eldur í nösum inni
ţá Eyvör sprakk í skinni.

Parts of this are quite difficult but I've attempted to translate:

A hard snow-storm of the giantess rode
waves with haste towards men so that
the Nist of gold gnashed her teeth. (1)
That walk was long and hard.
The clothes-fastener, the ground of gold, (2) sung,
then the very continents of the world tremble.
The lands of the dwarfs resounded underneath
by the non-sense (3) of the woman at Ós.
The throng danced the river-mouth of Unnur (4)
so that all the trolls were close to falling.
That day is in my memory
with its suffering;
horses died (5)
from their heavy toil,
as if a hot fire
was burning within their nostrils
when Eyvör died (5) from exhaustion in her skin.

1. That first sentence is intricate. There's surely more
than one way to interpret it. I don't know if 'hast' is
to be taken as an adverb.

2. Weird syntax. If we had genitive (spangar) instead of
nominative it would be more comprehensible.

3. The word 'glósur' is unexpected here. Its usual meaning
is "notes" and I had thought it a rather modern word.

4. No promises that this is correct.

5. The verb 'springa', occurring twice, can mean "to burst"
as well as "to die from over-exertion". I don't know if
'springa í skinni' has some particular meaning.

There are some kenningar here.

hríđ gríđar (snow-storm of the giantess): mind
nistin gulls (the Nist of gold): woman (Nist is a valkyrie)
seims grund (the ground of gold): woman
ós unns (the river-mouth of Unnur): poetry (Unnur is one of Óđinn's names)

From this specimen one might imagine that a 'tröllslagur' was performed
by a woman singing and a group of men dancing. Here is another 'tröllaslagur'
that might support this view:


Tröllaslagur hinn forni

Fer her ei fótspar
flokkum vér brokkum međ stokkum,
undir grund og yfir lönd
á eykjum svo feykjum vér reykjum.
Vindur blindar vogsund,
vökum vér tökum viđ rökum,
hryllir illa, hríđgöll
hreppum, vér sleppum af greppum.
Gull er grams múta,
geymdu ţađ Rúta,
látum slúta
lengi lúta.
Svo kváđu meyjar undir Skjaldbreiđarskúta.
Fimtíu í flokki saman
frömdu ţetta gaman.


I won't even attempt to translate this, as far as I can see
the bulk of it has no coherent meaning. However, the last
three lines mean:

In such a way maidens sung under Skjaldbreiđarskúti (Broad-shield-cave).
Fifty together in a group
performed this entertainment.

My source for this is the excellent "Íslenzkir víkivakar og víkivakakvćđi"
by Ólafur Davíđsson. He mentions Grímur Thomsen's view that the troll fights
were "obviously" related to the Norwegian 'springdans' and 'Hallingdans'.
Does that make any sense to you, Konrad?

Kveđja,
Haukur

Heill Konrad,

Do you know the instrument "härjedalspipa"? I have a friend whose
father, Gunnar, builds this instrument. He is also a folk music
performer. His website:
http://hem.passagen.se/harjedalspipan/
Some sound samples of the instrument (from the album Härjedalspipan):
http://hem.passagen.se/harjedalspipan/ljud.html
A few other songs from the album Härjedalspipan:
http://www.drone.se/english/hpip.html
All samples are of the size 200-500K


/Sjurd





--- In norse_course@yahoogroups.com, "konrad_oddsson"
<konrad_oddsson@y...> wrote:
> Here is a brief continuation from the same CD notes about Norwegian
> folk rhythms:
>
> "Apart from the Marj (March), the oldest rhythms in Norwegian folk
> music tradition, as heard on this album, are:
>
> Gangar (walking-dance) in 6/8 meter
> Sprinar (running-dance) in 3/4 meter
> Halling (a man's acrobatic solo dance) in duple meter
>
> The pols, in 3/4 triple meter, has been described in the text above
> (see previous post).
>
> The Vals (waltz), also in 3/4 meter, has three distinct forms
> illustrated in this recording:
>
> Springvals (running-walz), in quick tempo;
> Nigvals (dip-walz), a particularly rollicking rhythm;
> Stegvals (stride-waltz), in relatively slow tempo and likely
related
> to a pre-polska rhythmic form.
>
> The Reinlender (Rheinlander), in double meter, the Norwegian equiv-
> alent of the schottische.
>
> Happy Nordic Journeys,
> Konrad.

My response is at the end.

--- In norse_course@yahoogroups.com, Haukur Thorgeirsson
<haukurth@h...> wrote:
> One of the stranger forms of Icelandic poetry is the
> 'trölla-slagur' or 'risa-slagur'. The words 'tröll' and
> 'risi' mean "troll" and "giant" but I'm not sure if
> 'slagur' means "fight, battle" here or perhaps
> "poem" or even "dance". In any case the poems look
> like they must have been danced to. Unfortunately no
> description of the dance has come down to us.
>
> The metre is peculiar. It looks like it is derived
> from some of the intricate 'dróttkvćtt' metres but
> the difference between the even and the odd lines
> has been exaggerated.
>
> Here is my favorite 'tröllaslagur'. The first 10 lines
> are in the strange metre but the last 7 lines are in
> a simpler limerick-like end-rhymed form.
>
> Hríđ gríđar hörđ reiđ
> hrönnum svo tönnum ađ mönnum
> gnísti nistin gulls hast,
> sá gangur var langur og strangur.
> Söng spöngin seims grund
> sjálfar heims álfur ţá skjálfa.
> Dundu undir dverglönd
> drósar viđ glósur á Ósi -
> dansađi fansinn ós unns
> svo öllum lá tröllum viđ föllum.
> Sá dagur er mér í minni
> međur ţjáning sinni;
> hestar sprungu
> af harki ţungu,
> heitur sem ţeim brynni
> eldur í nösum inni
> ţá Eyvör sprakk í skinni.
>
> Parts of this are quite difficult but I've attempted to translate:
>
> A hard snow-storm of the giantess rode
> waves with haste towards men so that
> the Nist of gold gnashed her teeth. (1)
> That walk was long and hard.
> The clothes-fastener, the ground of gold, (2) sung,
> then the very continents of the world tremble.
> The lands of the dwarfs resounded underneath
> by the non-sense (3) of the woman at Ós.
> The throng danced the river-mouth of Unnur (4)
> so that all the trolls were close to falling.
> That day is in my memory
> with its suffering;
> horses died (5)
> from their heavy toil,
> as if a hot fire
> was burning within their nostrils
> when Eyvör died (5) from exhaustion in her skin.
>
> 1. That first sentence is intricate. There's surely more
> than one way to interpret it. I don't know if 'hast' is
> to be taken as an adverb.
>
> 2. Weird syntax. If we had genitive (spangar) instead of
> nominative it would be more comprehensible.
>
> 3. The word 'glósur' is unexpected here. Its usual meaning
> is "notes" and I had thought it a rather modern word.
>
> 4. No promises that this is correct.
>
> 5. The verb 'springa', occurring twice, can mean "to burst"
> as well as "to die from over-exertion". I don't know if
> 'springa í skinni' has some particular meaning.
>
> There are some kenningar here.
>
> hríđ gríđar (snow-storm of the giantess): mind
> nistin gulls (the Nist of gold): woman (Nist is a valkyrie)
> seims grund (the ground of gold): woman
> ós unns (the river-mouth of Unnur): poetry (Unnur is one of
Óđinn's names)
>
> From this specimen one might imagine that a 'tröllslagur' was
performed
> by a woman singing and a group of men dancing. Here is
another 'tröllaslagur'
> that might support this view:
>
>
> Tröllaslagur hinn forni
>
> Fer her ei fótspar
> flokkum vér brokkum međ stokkum,
> undir grund og yfir lönd
> á eykjum svo feykjum vér reykjum.
> Vindur blindar vogsund,
> vökum vér tökum viđ rökum,
> hryllir illa, hríđgöll
> hreppum, vér sleppum af greppum.
> Gull er grams múta,
> geymdu ţađ Rúta,
> látum slúta
> lengi lúta.
> Svo kváđu meyjar undir Skjaldbreiđarskúta.
> Fimtíu í flokki saman
> frömdu ţetta gaman.
>
>
> I won't even attempt to translate this, as far as I can see
> the bulk of it has no coherent meaning. However, the last
> three lines mean:
>
> In such a way maidens sung under Skjaldbreiđarskúti (Broad-shield-
cave).
> Fifty together in a group
> performed this entertainment.
>
> My source for this is the excellent "Íslenzkir víkivakar og
víkivakakvćđi"
> by Ólafur Davíđsson. He mentions Grímur Thomsen's view that the
troll fights
> were "obviously" related to the Norwegian 'springdans'
and 'Hallingdans'.
> Does that make any sense to you, Konrad?
>
> Kveđja,
> Haukur

Yes, it does make sense to me. I love these tröllaslagar. They are
truely enchanted and beautiful. They seem to bare all the marks of
having been sung and danced. The words seem to have been composed
for a specific melody, or type of melody, in each case. These words
could be sung anew by matching their meter and content to the right
old dance piece, or if need be, by composing a new one in the same
style. Depending on what the that style turns out to be, we could
also learn the dance steps - if these are still danced somewhere or
are available on videotape. These slagar have a very authetic feel.
They are also clearly Icelandic, as content of this type would not
have been tolerated in Norway during this period, even if in theory
the language had not been lost by this time. The first 300 years or
so of Lutheranism were entirely unalike modern Lutheran 'times' with
regard to the censorship of this type of material. In Norway, the
musicians often performed without words of any kind when they were
tolerated, which was not very often. Instrument burnings frequently
destroyed all of the available instruments in a particular area,
reducing the farmers to sheep calls and other vocal music. If even
instrumental music could be condemned as a product of the devil,
then one should have no difficulty imagining how these slagar would
have been viewed by the authorities and 'heldrafólk' of the 'times'.
As the words disappeared and the people died, the intrumental music
became increasing important as the only strait link with the ancient
past. It became at the same time extremely conservative, fossilized
and a replacement for poetry about the devil. Interestingly enough,
the 'troll-tuning' (tröllastillingin) is one of a small group of
special tunings which is believed to have unusual magical powers.
Pieces in this tuning evoke a trance-like state between the worlds.

Regards,
Konrad.

Heill Sjuler.

--- In norse_course@yahoogroups.com, "sjuler" <sjuler@y...> wrote:
> Heill Konrad,
>
> Do you know the instrument "härjedalspipa"?

Yes, it is a very important and beautiful instrument, but I suspect
it comes from the devil.

   I have a friend whose
> father, Gunnar, builds this instrument. He is also a folk music
> performer. His website:
> http://hem.passagen.se/harjedalspipan/

This is a very nice website. Thank you for steering me to it.

> Some sound samples of the instrument (from the album
Härjedalspipan):
> http://hem.passagen.se/harjedalspipan/ljud.html
> A few other songs from the album Härjedalspipan:
> http://www.drone.se/english/hpip.html
> All samples are of the size 200-500K
>
> /Sjurd

These tunes are very beautiful. I notice Ale Möller is in the band.
I know him to be a great wizard. As usual, one of the four tunes is
said to have been composed by the devil. I am beginning to suspect
two things about you mysterious inhabitants of Skadinaujô:

1) All your music comes from the devil.
2) You are trying to lure me north and nether on the path to Hel. ;)

Anyone with a serious interest in Nordic culture should have a look
at these pages and hear this music.

Tređ ek trylldr
tónaveg Óma,
Konráđ.

>
>
>
>
> --- In norse_course@yahoogroups.com, "konrad_oddsson"
> <konrad_oddsson@y...> wrote:
> > Here is a brief continuation from the same CD notes about
Norwegian
> > folk rhythms:
> >
> > "Apart from the Marj (March), the oldest rhythms in Norwegian
folk
> > music tradition, as heard on this album, are:
> >
> > Gangar (walking-dance) in 6/8 meter
> > Sprinar (running-dance) in 3/4 meter
> > Halling (a man's acrobatic solo dance) in duple meter
> >
> > The pols, in 3/4 triple meter, has been described in the text
above
> > (see previous post).
> >
> > The Vals (waltz), also in 3/4 meter, has three distinct forms
> > illustrated in this recording:
> >
> > Springvals (running-walz), in quick tempo;
> > Nigvals (dip-walz), a particularly rollicking rhythm;
> > Stegvals (stride-waltz), in relatively slow tempo and likely
> related
> > to a pre-polska rhythmic form.
> >
> > The Reinlender (Rheinlander), in double meter, the Norwegian
equiv-
> > alent of the schottische.
> >
> > Happy Nordic Journeys,
> > Konrad.

Okay - when I said:
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------
   This is where Sequentia comes in.  They did claim the music to be based
   upon an extrapolation of the musical traditions of Medieval Iceland and
   did claim that significant efforts were made to recreate both the music
   and speech of the time and place. With this in mind, it is obvious that
   the inhabitants of Modern Iceland are in a better position to evaluate
   Sequentia's claims than the rest of us. Therefore, I can't say that any
   of us should fault Haukur and Oskar for their naturally biased
evaluations.
   It's the bias that we're counting on to give us information not available
   from any other source.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------

I didn't know that we would be treated to such an excellent example of the
mentioned bias

When Konrad wrote:
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------
   The musicians in Sequentia are fine and highly trained specialists, but
they
   simply lack the many years of highly specialized training, and the
uniquely
   Nordic sensibility, which are absolutely required to perform this music.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------

This notion of a so-called "Nordic sensibility" is clearly correct - yet -
it is also,
clearly, a distortion. Yet, I don't wish to sound overly critical. All I
wish to say is
that there is room for other "sensibilities" within any sphere of knowledge
other than
just that one which would seem most pertinent. What we hear from Sequentia
is the
result of their own, sort of patented method of recreating dead musical
forms from
what little remains of them. In this manner, what they've provided should
not be
taken lightly - especially by those who possess the more pertinent
"sensibility".
Doubt gives knowledge flexibility - and therefore greater strength. Doubt is
the yeast
in the bread. Those who leave doubt behind live in a world grown too small.
Actually, I think that last bit would sound better in ON - although I don't
know the
words. Maybe latter.

Raymond

I am new here and new to Old Norse, though not to learning "arcane
languages."

I was hoping that someone could check that I am understanding the use
of indefinite and definite adjectives properly.

indefinite:    ormr langr     a long worm
definite:      ormrinn langi  the long worm
also definite: Eirikr langi   long Eric or Eric the long

Have I got that right?

--
Stephen Fryer
Lund Computer Services

**************************************************
The more answers I find, the more questions I have
**************************************************

I am new here and new to Old Norse, though not to learning "arcane languages."

I was hoping that someone could check that I am understanding the use of
indefinite and definite adjectives properly.

indefinite: ormr langr  a long worm
definite: ormrinn langi the long worm
also definite: Eirikr langi long Eric or Eric the long

Have I got that right?

--
Stephen Fryer
Lund Computer Services

**************************************************
The more answers I find, the more questions I have
**************************************************

I am new here and new to Old Norse, though not to learning "arcane languages."

I was hoping that someone could check that I am understanding the use of
indefinite and definite adjectives properly.

indefinite: ormr langr  a long worm
definite: ormrinn langi the long worm
also definite: Eirikr langi long Eric or Eric the long

Have I got that right?

--
Stephen Fryer
Lund Computer Services

**************************************************
The more answers I find, the more questions I have
**************************************************

Third time is a charm (or so I'm told).  To see how you're doing,
check out the very short Grammar Reference for nouns and adjectives
at the Homepage: http://www.hi.is/~haukurth/norse/. There is always
the possibility that the noun or adjective you're using may be
irregular - but the grammar is a good starting point (and everyone
will love you for using it).

Raymond

-----Original Message-----
From: Stephen Fryer
To: norse_course@yahoogroups.com
Sent: 8/12/2003 9:31 PM
Subject: [norse_course] Hello and a Question

I am new here and new to Old Norse, though not to learning "arcane
languages."

I was hoping that someone could check that I am understanding the use of

indefinite and definite adjectives properly.

indefinite: ormr langr  a long worm
definite: ormrinn langi the long worm
also definite: Eirikr langi long Eric or Eric the long

Have I got that right?

--
Stephen Fryer
Lund Computer Services

**************************************************
The more answers I find, the more questions I have
**************************************************