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#4826 From: "AThompson" <athompso@...>
Date: Tue Feb 1, 2005 6:27 am
Subject: RE: Auðun part 10 alysseann
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Góðan daginn

Within this passage, I can’t figure out the form “settak.” Is it middle voice? In which case I think I would have expected “settumk”.

Kveðja

Alan

Translation:

Konungr mælti: 'Er þat satt, Áki, er hann segir?'

(The) king spoke: ”Is that true, Áki, which he says?”

'Satt er þat', segir hann.

”It is true”, he says.

Konungr mælti: 'Ok þótti þér þat til liggja,

(The) king spoke: ”And did that seem to you to be fitting

þar sem ek settak þik mikinn mann,

whereas I set you up as a great man,

at hepta þat eða tálma, er maðr gørðisk til at fœra mér

to hinder or obstruct that (it), when a man takes the trouble to give me

gørsimi ok gaf fyrir alla eign?

a treasure and gave for (it) all (his) possessions?

Ok sá þat Haraldr konungr at ráði at láta hann fara í friði,

And King Harald saw that as good counsel (thought it advisable) to let him go in peace.

ok er hann várr óvinr.

and he is our enemy.

Hygg þú at þá, hvé sannligt þat var þinnar handar!

Think [you] on that, how proper that was on your hand (part)!

Ok þat væri makligt, at þú værir drepinn;

And that were (subj.) deserved, that you were (subj.) killed;

en ek mun nú eigi þat gøra, en braut skaltu fara þegar ór landinu,

but I will now not do that, but you shall go away immediately out of the country,

ok koma aldri aptr síðan mér í augsýn.

and never come back afterwards into my sight.

-----Original Message-----
From: Sarah Bowen [mailto:sarahbowen@...]
Sent: Saturday, 29 January 2005 9:33 PM
To: norse_course@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [norse_course] Auðun part 10

Aki gets his come-uppance.

Konungr mælti: "Er þat satt, Áki, er hann segir?" "Satt er þat", segir hann. Konungr mælti: "Ok þótti þér þat til liggja, þar sem ik settak þik mikinn mann, at hepta þat eða tálma, er maðr gørðisk til at foera mér gørsimi ok gaf fyrir alla eign? Ok sá þat Haraldr konungr at ráði at láta hann fara í friði, ok er hann várr óvinr. Hygg þú at þá, hvé sannligt þat var þinnar handar! Ok þat væri makligt, at þú værir drepinn; en ek mun nú eigi þat gøra, en braut skaltu fara þegar ór landinu, ok koma aldri aptr síðan mér í augsýn."

I´ll respond to the postings as they come in this week, rather than waiting for everyone - that might be quicker.

Kveðja,

Sarah.

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#4827 From: "xeon_ies" <xeon@...>
Date: Tue Feb 1, 2005 1:05 pm
Subject: Re: English to Norse (sword names) xeon_ies
Send Email

Thanks a lot for your help, Llama! I must think of some way to
"beautify" these names as they seem kind of awkward to the average
reader, though.

By the way, Ull's hall is called Ydalir and it translates to "Yew
Dales". What are Yews and Dales? Is it some kind of magical morning
dew or water droplet etc.?

Thanks!
Xeon.


>
> Hi Xeon,
>
> "Heiti" (poetic names) for bows:
>
> Almr, dalr, bogi, (elm, dale, bow)
> �r ok tv�vi�r, (yew and two-wood)
> sveigr, gl�r ok �rymr, (bent, sea?, stretch?)
> s�mr, sk�lgelmir. (honour/fitness, bowl-?)
>
> "Stinger" might be 'biti' or 'b�tr', but these seem to be prefered
> for sword names.  I don't know if there's a different word
> for "arch" that doen't mean "bow" as well, but 'bogi' seems to cover
> both.  'Dalr' must be from the curved shape of a valley, and perhaps
> by extension other curved things.  I've read one theory about the
> name Heimdallr that relates it to this, in the sense of "horn"--and
> in Hervarar saga, the Huns are said to have horn-bows.  So maybe
> that's the connection.  Sveigr is related to the verb sveigja "bend
> [a bow]".  Sk�l is a bowl--could that be a reference to the bow's
> curved shape too?
>
> 1) bogi/dalr/sveigr inn mikli (inn st�ri).
> 2) undrbiti
> 3) biti inn efsti
>
> I don't know what -gelmir is.  It occurs in a lot of mythological
> names.  'Gellr' means "shrieks, twangs" (gjalla "to shriek/twang")
> and is the word used for the noise of a bowstring, so maybe you
> could include that as one element: Undrgjalli, or something like
> that.  Careful though: as we found out recently the Icelandic Hobbit
> translates Gollum as Gollnir!
>
> Not sure what 'sea' has to do with bows.  Could there be a
> connection with similar words for "glistening, splendour"
> and "amber"?
>
> Llama Nom
>
>
>
>
> --- In norse_course@yahoogroups.com, "xeon_ies" <xeon@x> wrote:
> >
> > Hi Llama!
> >
> > I've decided to adopt the names Dugvandill and Harmbrenna for the
> > sword names.
> > And one more thing in which I'm thinking of giving a name to Ull's
> bow
> > too. :-D
> >
> > What does the following words translates to?
> >
> > 1) "The Great Arch"
> > 2) "Wonderous Stinger"
> > 3) "Final stinger"
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Xeon.

Reply | Messages in this Topic (23)

#4828 From: "Patricia" <originalpatricia@...>
Date: Tue Feb 1, 2005 5:59 pm
Subject: Re: Re: English to Norse (sword names) originalpatr...
Send Email

Xeon Saell,

Yews are trees usually found in Cemeteries here in England, but I know not why, and their branches were once used to make Bows for Arrows, the rune Yr signifies a yew.

Dales were and still are Valles between either medium tall hills and are visualised as representing a countrified - agricultural oops do I mean pastoral life

Patricia

----- Original Message -----

From: xeon_ies

To: norse_course@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Tuesday, February 01, 2005 1:05 PM

Subject: [norse_course] Re: English to Norse (sword names)

Thanks a lot for your help, Llama! I must think of some way to "beautify" these names as they seem kind of awkward to the average reader, though. By the way, Ull's hall is called Ydalir and it translates to "Yew Dales". What are Yews and Dales? Is it some kind of magical morning dew or water droplet etc.? Thanks! Xeon. > > Hi Xeon, > > "Heiti" (poetic names) for bows: > > Almr, dalr, bogi, (elm, dale, bow) > �r ok tv�vi�r, (yew and two-wood) > sveigr, gl�r ok �rymr, (bent, sea?, stretch?) > s�mr, sk�lgelmir. (honour/fitness, bowl-?) > > "Stinger" might be 'biti' or 'b�tr', but these seem to be prefered > for sword names. I don't know if there's a different word > for "arch" that doen't mean "bow" as well, but 'bogi' seems to cover > both. 'Dalr' must be from the curved shape of a valley, and perhaps > by extension other curved things. I've read one theory about the > name Heimdallr that relates it to this, in the sense of "horn"--and > in Hervarar saga, the Huns are said to have horn-bows. So maybe > that's the connection. Sveigr is related to the verb sveigja "bend > [a bow]". Sk�l is a bowl--could that be a reference to the bow's > curved shape too? > > 1) bogi/dalr/sveigr inn mikli (inn st�ri). > 2) undrbiti > 3) biti inn efsti > > I don't know what -gelmir is. It occurs in a lot of mythological > names. 'Gellr' means "shrieks, twangs" (gjalla "to shriek/twang") > and is the word used for the noise of a bowstring, so maybe you > could include that as one element: Undrgjalli, or something like > that. Careful though: as we found out recently the Icelandic Hobbit > translates Gollum as Gollnir! > > Not sure what 'sea' has to do with bows. Could there be a > connection with similar words for "glistening, splendour" > and "amber"? > > Llama Nom > > > > > --- In norse_course@yahoogroups.com, "xeon_ies" <xeon@x> wrote: > > > > Hi Llama! > > > > I've decided to adopt the names Dugvandill and Harmbrenna for the > > sword names. > > And one more thing in which I'm thinking of giving a name to Ull's > bow > > too. :-D > > > > What does the following words translates to? > > > > 1) "The Great Arch" > > 2) "Wonderous Stinger" > > 3) "Final stinger" > > > > Thanks, > > Xeon.

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#4829 From: Stephen Fryer <sfryer@...>
Date: Tue Feb 1, 2005 6:08 pm
Subject: Re: Re: English to Norse (sword names) hunmanby2001
Send Email

xeon_ies wrote:

> By the way, Ull's hall is called Ydalir and it translates to "Yew
> Dales". What are Yews and Dales? Is it some kind of magical morning
> dew or water droplet etc.?

A Yew is a type of coniferous tree, and a dale is a valley.  There may
be some symbolic reference in the yew - or it may just be a tree.

--
Stephen Fryer
Lund Computer Services

**************************************************
The more answers I find, the more questions I have
**************************************************

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#4830 From: "Patricia" <originalpatricia@...>
Date: Tue Feb 1, 2005 7:45 pm
Subject: Re: Re: English to Norse (sword names) originalpatr...
Send Email

Xeon Saell -

Excuse me but the name Dugvandil is not quite right if you are referring to Egil's sword which Arinbjorn the Hersir gave him, I quoted Dragvandil - Slicer which was the name of the sword.

Dugvandil if that is your weapon's name, I am mistaken, is obviously an entirely different weapon from the one I referred to in my e.mail of 25th Jan, Je m'excuse

Patricia

----- Original Message -----

From: xeon_ies

To: norse_course@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Saturday, January 29, 2005 8:20 AM

Subject: [norse_course] Re: English to Norse (sword names)

Hi Llama! I've decided to adopt the names Dugvandill and Harmbrenna for the sword names. And one more thing in which I'm thinking of giving a name to Ull's bow too. :-D What does the following words translates to? 1) "The Great Arch" 2) "Wonderous Stinger" 3) "Final stinger" Thanks, Xeon.

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#4831 From: "Sarah Bowen" <sarahbowen@...>
Date: Tue Feb 1, 2005 10:05 pm
Subject: Grace & Alan skbowen191102
Send Email

Hello you two!

Thanks for your translations. I will post up feedback on Thurs evening.

Cheers,

Sarah.

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#4832 From: "xeon_ies" <xeon@...>
Date: Wed Feb 2, 2005 3:30 pm
Subject: RE : English to Norse(sword names) xeon_ies
Send Email

Hi Hunmanby and Patricia! Thanks for giving me those precious
feedback! :-)

---------------------
A Yew is a type of coniferous tree, and a dale is a valley. There may
be some symbolic reference in the yew - or it may just be a tree.
---------------------

Hmmmmmm.......so I would say it's somewhat logical to suggest that
Ull's hall is a mini valley within Asgard with lots of Yew trees
around it etc.

---------------------
Dugvandil if that is your weapon's name, I am mistaken, is obviously
an entirely different weapon from the one I referred to in my e.mail
of 25th Jan, Je m'excuse
----------------------

Dugvandil...that's actually a name suggested to me by Llama. I needed
some kind of cool and meaningful name for Freyr's magical sword, you
see(the one he gave to Skirnir).

And Surt's blazing sword is given the name of Harmbrenna. If possible,
I wish to make it sound even more bloodthirsty, though. :-)

Have a nice day, guys!
Xeon.
(Saelle means "Sir"?)

Reply | Messages in this Topic (2)

#4833 From: Michael Murphy <omurc2002@...>
Date: Wed Feb 2, 2005 10:55 am
Subject: Re: Re: English to Norse (sword names) omurc2002
Send Email

Hi, Patricia,

For what it's worth, the explanation why cemeteries were chosen as places to grow yew-trees is as follows. The wood of the yew is particularly suitable for making bows (for archers) being amazingly pliant and tough (try bending a yew sapling -- if you don't mind nipping into the nearest cemetery -- and you'll see what I mean). Unfortunately, once archers discovered this, every yew-tree was fair game (so to speak) and the yew-tree population in the British Isles soon began to plummet. Someone, probably a landowner or, perhaps, a church official, hit on the bright idea of growing them behind cemetery walls. No one would dare desecrate sacred ground; besides, there was also the deep-seated fear of venturing too close to the abode of the dead. From what I remember when I first read this explanation -- somewhere -- the practice

dates right back to the Middle Ages.

Trees, of course, were also of sacred significance to the Celts and their priests, the Druids. The oak, the hazel, the holly, the ash, etc. were revered (the word 'druid' comes from the Gaelic/Celtic word 'dar' -- an oak-tree + the suffix '-uid', roughly meaning 'the people of').

I haven't come across any specific reference to the place of trees in Norse mythology, apart from the obvious 'ygdrasil.' Do you have any information yourself ?

Slan agus beannacht,

Mike
Patricia <originalpatricia@...> wrote:

Xeon Saell,

Yews are trees usually found in Cemeteries here in England, but I know not why, and their branches were once used to make Bows for Arrows, the rune Yr signifies a yew.

Dales were and still are Valles between either medium tall hills and are visualised as representing a countrified - agricultural oops do I mean pastoral life

Patricia

----- Original Message -----

From: xeon_ies

To: norse_course@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Tuesday, February 01, 2005 1:05 PM

Subject: [norse_course] Re: English to Norse (sword names)

Thanks a lot for your help, Llama! I must think of some way to "beautify" these names as they seem kind of awkward to the average reader, though. By the way, Ull's hall is called Ydalir and it translates to "Yew Dales". What are Yews and Dales? Is it some kind of magical morning dew or water droplet etc.? Thanks! Xeon. > > Hi Xeon, > > "Heiti" (poetic names) for bows: > > Almr, dalr, bogi, (elm, dale, bow) > �r ok tv�vi�r, (yew and two-wood) > sveigr, gl�r ok �rymr, (bent, sea?, stretch?) > s�mr, sk�lgelmir. (honour/fitness, bowl-?) > > "Stinger" might be 'biti' or 'b�tr', but these seem to be prefered > for sword names. I don't know if there's a different word > for "arch" that doen't mean "bow" as well, but 'bogi' seems to cover > both. 'Dalr' must be from the curved shape of a valley, and perhaps > by extension other curved things. I've read one theory about the > name Heimdallr that relates it to this, in the sense of "horn"--and > in Hervarar saga, the Huns are said to have horn-bows. So maybe > that's the connection. Sveigr is related to the verb sveigja "bend > [a bow]". Sk�l is a bowl--could that be a reference to the bow's > curved shape too? > > 1) bogi/dalr/sveigr inn mikli (inn st�ri). > 2) undrbiti > 3) biti inn efsti > > I don't know what -gelmir is. It occurs in a lot of mythological > names. 'Gellr' means "shrieks, twangs" (gjalla "to shriek/twang") > and is the word used for the noise of a bowstring, so maybe you > could include that as one element: Undrgjalli, or something like > that. Careful though: as we found out recently the Icelandic Hobbit > translates Gollum as Gollnir! > > Not sure what 'sea' has to do with bows. Could there be a > connection with similar words for "glistening, splendour" > and "amber"? > > Llama Nom > > > > > --- In norse_course@yahoogroups.com, "xeon_ies" <xeon@x> wrote: > > > > Hi Llama! > > > > I've decided to adopt the names Dugvandill and Harmbrenna for the > > sword names. > > And one more thing in which I'm thinking of giving a name to Ull's > bow > > too. :-D > > > > What does the following words translates to? > > > > 1) "The Great Arch" > > 2) "Wonderous Stinger" > > 3) "Final stinger" > > > > Thanks, > > Xeon.

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#4834 From: "Patricia" <originalpatricia@...>
Date: Wed Feb 2, 2005 5:43 pm
Subject: Re: Re: English to Norse (sword names) originalpatr...
Send Email

Saell Michael -

what a splendid reply, I shall not be going down to the Cemetery, I shall be taking your words for it - so to say.

A Hazel Branch was the usual post to use when constructing a Ni�stang, this would be the Insulting "message" unfortunately you had to kill a horse and chop off the poor thing's head, in Egil Skallagrimsson's Saga Egil did this and caused the horse's head to be turned to face where King Eirik and his Srewish wife Gunnhild were living http://nidstang.ragnarokr.com/ this is the link in case you have a spare horse and hate someone enough, I fear the horse would doubtless be worth the more, if ridden.

Yggdrasil - the World Tree was a Giant ash of course, it's name means "The Terrible One's horse" and no doubt the tree on which Iduna's Apples grew would have been a guarded Treasure.

So, from off the top of my head that's all I can call to mind at present, I shall give it some thought, thank you for your input, it was of value.

Kve�ja

Patricia

----- Original Message -----

From: Michael Murphy

To: norse_course@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Wednesday, February 02, 2005 10:55 AM

Subject: Re: [norse_course] Re: English to Norse (sword names)

Hi, Patricia,

For what it's worth, the explanation why cemeteries were chosen as places to grow yew-trees is as follows. The wood of the yew is particularly suitable for making bows (for archers) being amazingly pliant and tough (try bending a yew sapling -- if you don't mind nipping into the nearest cemetery -- and you'll see what I mean). Unfortunately, once archers discovered this, every yew-tree was fair game (so to speak) and the yew-tree population in the British Isles soon began to plummet. Someone, probably a landowner or, perhaps, a church official, hit on the bright idea of growing them behind cemetery walls. No one would dare desecrate sacred ground; besides, there was also the deep-seated fear of venturing too close to the abode of the dead. From what I remember when I first read this explanation -- somewhere -- the practice

dates right back to the Middle Ages.

Trees, of course, were also of sacred significance to the Celts and their priests, the Druids. The oak, the hazel, the holly, the ash, etc. were revered (the word 'druid' comes from the Gaelic/Celtic word 'dar' -- an oak-tree + the suffix '-uid', roughly meaning 'the people of').

I haven't come across any specific reference to the place of trees in Norse mythology, apart from the obvious 'ygdrasil.' Do you have any information yourself ?

Slan agus beannacht,

Mike
Patricia <originalpatricia@...> wrote:

Xeon Saell,

Yews are trees usually found in Cemeteries here in England, but I know not why, and their branches were once used to make Bows for Arrows, the rune Yr signifies a yew.

Dales were and still are Valles between either medium tall hills and are visualised as representing a countrified - agricultural oops do I mean pastoral life

Patricia

----- Original Message -----

From: xeon_ies

To: norse_course@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Tuesday, February 01, 2005 1:05 PM

Subject: [norse_course] Re: English to Norse (sword names)

Thanks a lot for your help, Llama! I must think of some way to "beautify" these names as they seem kind of awkward to the average reader, though. By the way, Ull's hall is called Ydalir and it translates to "Yew Dales". What are Yews and Dales? Is it some kind of magical morning dew or water droplet etc.? Thanks! Xeon. > > Hi Xeon, > > "Heiti" (poetic names) for bows: > > Almr, dalr, bogi, (elm, dale, bow) > �r ok tv�vi�r, (yew and two-wood) > sveigr, gl�r ok �rymr, (bent, sea?, stretch?) > s�mr, sk�lgelmir. (honour/fitness, bowl-?) > > "Stinger" might be 'biti' or 'b�tr', but these seem to be prefered > for sword names. I don't know if there's a different word > for "arch" that doen't mean "bow" as well, but 'bogi' seems to cover > both. 'Dalr' must be from the curved shape of a valley, and perhaps > by extension other curved things. I've read one theory about the > name Heimdallr that relates it to this, in the sense of "horn"--and > in Hervarar saga, the Huns are said to have horn-bows. So maybe > that's the connection. Sveigr is related to the verb sveigja "bend > [a bow]". Sk�l is a bowl--could that be a reference to the bow's > curved shape too? > > 1) bogi/dalr/sveigr inn mikli (inn st�ri). > 2) undrbiti > 3) biti inn efsti > > I don't know what -gelmir is. It occurs in a lot of mythological > names. 'Gellr' means "shrieks, twangs" (gjalla "to shriek/twang") > and is the word used for the noise of a bowstring, so maybe you > could include that as one element: Undrgjalli, or something like > that. Careful though: as we found out recently the Icelandic Hobbit > translates Gollum as Gollnir! > > Not sure what 'sea' has to do with bows. Could there be a > connection with similar words for "glistening, splendour" > and "amber"? > > Llama Nom > > > > > --- In norse_course@yahoogroups.com, "xeon_ies" <xeon@x> wrote: > > > > Hi Llama! > > > > I've decided to adopt the names Dugvandill and Harmbrenna for the > > sword names. > > And one more thing in which I'm thinking of giving a name to Ull's > bow > > too. :-D > > > > What does the following words translates to? > > > > 1) "The Great Arch" > > 2) "Wonderous Stinger" > > 3) "Final stinger" > > > > Thanks, > > Xeon.

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#4835 From: "Patricia" <originalpatricia@...>
Date: Wed Feb 2, 2005 5:52 pm
Subject: Re: RE : English to Norse(sword names) originalpatr...
Send Email

As I understand it Sael/Saell is a greeting like Hail Hael Heil (not so often used), and it is a sort of Hello, but the Guys get two "L's women get one "go figure".

As it is and will always (I trust) be, exchange of opinions and feedback etc. will most likely continue because it benefits everyone in the Group.

Patricia

----- Original Message -----

From: xeon_ies

To: norse_course@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Wednesday, February 02, 2005 3:30 PM

Subject: [norse_course] RE : English to Norse(sword names)

Hi Hunmanby and Patricia! Thanks for giving me those precious feedback! :-) --------------------- A Yew is a type of coniferous tree, and a dale is a valley. There may be some symbolic reference in the yew - or it may just be a tree. --------------------- Hmmmmmm.......so I would say it's somewhat logical to suggest that Ull's hall is a mini valley within Asgard with lots of Yew trees around it etc. --------------------- Dugvandil if that is your weapon's name, I am mistaken, is obviously an entirely different weapon from the one I referred to in my e.mail of 25th Jan, Je m'excuse ---------------------- Dugvandil...that's actually a name suggested to me by Llama. I needed some kind of cool and meaningful name for Freyr's magical sword, you see(the one he gave to Skirnir). And Surt's blazing sword is given the name of Harmbrenna. If possible, I wish to make it sound even more bloodthirsty, though. :-) Have a nice day, guys! Xeon. (Saelle means "Sir"?)

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#4836 From: "llama_nom" <600cell@...>
Date: Thu Feb 3, 2005 3:42 pm
Subject: Re: Trees llama_nom
Send Email

Hello all,

As well as the example Patricia gave, Hazel posts are used in Egils
saga to mark out the boundaries of the area where the judges sit at
the Gula�ing assembly.  They are used to mark out the boundaries of
the site where a "pitched" battle is to be fought in Egils saga and
Hervarar saga.  And they mark the area in which a duel is fought in
Korma'ks saga.  To "hazel (ON hasla) a field for someone" means to
challenge them to battle.

Tacitus, writing about the continental Germanic tribes in the 1st
century AD, describes the practice of divination with pieces of wood
from a "nut-bearing tree" (Mattingley translation) marked with
letters.  Norse sources mention such "lot twigs", but I don't know
if any particular tree is specified.

At the end of one of the two extant versions of Ragnars saga, the
followers of Ogmund the Dane meet a giant moss-covered "wooden man"
(tre'ma�r) on the Danish island of Sams�, who chants some verses at
them, lamenting the fact that people no longer make human sacrifices
to him.  Certain groves were held sacred, both real (as can be seen
by placenames) and mythical (Glasir, Glasislundr).  In the late 11th
century Adam of Bremen described a religious ceremony at Uppsala
involving large scale sacrifice with bodies hung on trees of a
sacred grove.

V�luspa' and Gylfaginning mention a wood in the east called
Ja'rnvi�r "Iron Wood", but I don't know if the name is supposed to
indicate a particular type of tree, real or imaginary.

Llama Nom





--- In norse_course@yahoogroups.com, "Patricia"
<originalpatricia@y...> wrote:
>   Saell Michael -
>    what a splendid reply, I shall not be going down to the
Cemetery, I shall be taking your words for it - so to say.
>   A Hazel Branch was the usual post to use when constructing a
Ni�stang, this would be the Insulting "message" unfortunately you
had to kill a horse  and chop off the poor thing's head, in Egil
Skallagrimsson's Saga Egil did this and caused the horse's head to
be turned to face where King Eirik and his Srewish wife Gunnhild
were living http://nidstang.ragnarokr.com/ this is the link in case
you have a spare horse and hate someone enough, I fear the horse
would doubtless be worth the more, if ridden.
>   Yggdrasil - the World Tree was a Giant ash of course, it's name
means "The Terrible One's horse" and no doubt the tree on which
Iduna's Apples grew would have been a guarded Treasure.
>   So, from off the top of my head that's all I can call to mind at
present, I shall  give it some thought, thank you for your input, it
was of value.
>   Kve�ja
>   Patricia
>     ----- Original Message -----
>     From: Michael Murphy
>     To: norse_course@yahoogroups.com
>     Sent: Wednesday, February 02, 2005 10:55 AM
>     Subject: Re: [norse_course] Re: English to Norse (sword names)
>
>
>      Hi, Patricia,
>
>      For what it's worth, the explanation why cemeteries were
chosen as places to grow yew-trees is as follows. The wood of the
yew is particularly suitable for making bows (for archers) being
amazingly pliant and tough (try bending a yew sapling -- if you
don't mind nipping into the nearest cemetery -- and you'll see what
I mean). Unfortunately, once archers discovered this, every yew-tree
was fair game (so to speak) and the yew-tree population in the
British Isles soon began to plummet. Someone, probably a landowner
or, perhaps, a church official, hit on the bright idea of growing
them behind cemetery walls. No one would dare desecrate sacred
ground; besides, there was also the deep-seated fear of venturing
too close to the abode of the dead. From what I remember when I
first read this explanation -- somewhere -- the practice
>     dates right back to the Middle Ages.
>
>     Trees, of course, were also of sacred significance to the
Celts and their priests, the Druids. The oak, the hazel, the holly,
the ash, etc. were revered (the word 'druid' comes from the
Gaelic/Celtic word 'dar' -- an oak-tree + the suffix '-uid', roughly
meaning 'the people of').
>
>     I haven't come across any specific reference to the place of
trees in Norse mythology, apart from the obvious 'ygdrasil.'  Do you
have any information yourself ?
>
>     Slan agus beannacht,
>
>     Mike
>     Patricia <originalpatricia@y...> wrote:
>         Xeon Saell,
>         Yews are trees usually found in Cemeteries here in
England, but I know not why, and their branches were once used to
make Bows for Arrows,  the rune Yr signifies a yew.
>         Dales were and still are Valles between either medium tall
hills  and are visualised as representing a countrified -
agricultural oops do I mean pastoral life
>         Patricia
>           ----- Original Message -----
>           From: xeon_ies
>           To: norse_course@yahoogroups.com
>           Sent: Tuesday, February 01, 2005 1:05 PM
>           Subject: [norse_course] Re: English to Norse (sword
names)
>
>
>
>           Thanks a lot for your help, Llama! I must think of some
way to
>           "beautify" these names as they seem kind of awkward to
the average
>           reader, though.
>
>           By the way, Ull's hall is called Ydalir and it
translates to "Yew
>           Dales". What are Yews and Dales? Is it some kind of
magical morning
>           dew or water droplet etc.?
>
>           Thanks!
>           Xeon.
>
>
>           >
>           > Hi Xeon,
>           >
>           > "Heiti" (poetic names) for bows:
>           >
>           > Almr, dalr, bogi, (elm, dale, bow)
>           > �r ok tv�vi�r, (yew and two-wood)
>           > sveigr, gl�r ok �rymr, (bent, sea?, stretch?)
>           > s�mr, sk�lgelmir. (honour/fitness, bowl-?)
>           >
>           > "Stinger" might be 'biti' or 'b�tr', but these seem to
be prefered
>           > for sword names.  I don't know if there's a different
word
>           > for "arch" that doen't mean "bow" as well, but 'bogi'
seems to cover
>           > both.  'Dalr' must be from the curved shape of a
valley, and perhaps
>           > by extension other curved things.  I've read one
theory about the
>           > name Heimdallr that relates it to this, in the sense
of "horn"--and
>           > in Hervarar saga, the Huns are said to have horn-
bows.  So maybe
>           > that's the connection.  Sveigr is related to the verb
sveigja "bend
>           > [a bow]".  Sk�l is a bowl--could that be a reference
to the bow's
>           > curved shape too?
>           >
>           > 1) bogi/dalr/sveigr inn mikli (inn st�ri).
>           > 2) undrbiti
>           > 3) biti inn efsti
>           >
>           > I don't know what -gelmir is.  It occurs in a lot of
mythological
>           > names.  'Gellr' means "shrieks, twangs" (gjalla "to
shriek/twang")
>           > and is the word used for the noise of a bowstring, so
maybe you
>           > could include that as one element: Undrgjalli, or
something like
>           > that.  Careful though: as we found out recently the
Icelandic Hobbit
>           > translates Gollum as Gollnir!
>           >
>           > Not sure what 'sea' has to do with bows.  Could there
be a
>           > connection with similar words for "glistening,
splendour"
>           > and "amber"?
>           >
>           > Llama Nom
>           >
>           >
>           >
>           >
>           > --- In norse_course@yahoogroups.com, "xeon_ies"
<xeon@x> wrote:
>           > >
>           > > Hi Llama!
>           > >
>           > > I've decided to adopt the names Dugvandill and
Harmbrenna for the
>           > > sword names.
>           > > And one more thing in which I'm thinking of giving a
name to Ull's
>           > bow
>           > > too. :-D
>           > >
>           > > What does the following words translates to?
>           > >
>           > > 1) "The Great Arch"
>           > > 2) "Wonderous Stinger"
>           > > 3) "Final stinger"
>           > >
>           > > Thanks,
>           > > Xeon.
>
>
>
>
>
>           A Norse funny farm, overrun by smart people.
>
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Reply | Messages in this Topic (23)

#4837 From: "llama_nom" <600cell@...>
Date: Thu Feb 3, 2005 4:04 pm
Subject: hooked-o, � correction llama_nom
Send Email

> The letter <�> is the result of u/w-mutation of earlier /e/.

True in some cases...e.g. s�kkva, r�ru, where the /e/ goes back to
Proto Norse, and g�ra < *garwjan--where the /e/ was the i-umlaut
of /a/.

But sometimes it has a different origin.  Other sources of <�>:

i-umlaut of /o/, as in k�mr.
i-umlaut of hooked-o, as in h�ggr (inf. h�ggva).

Llama Nom



--- In norse_course@yahoogroups.com, "llama_nom" <600cell@o...>
wrote:
>
>
> Patricia,
>
> A lot of books/editions/texts spell both "hooked o" and <�> as in
> Modern Icelandic: <�>.  In certain words though, <�> later became
> <e>, and is so spelt in some editions of Old Norse texts too.
>
> k�mr > kemr "comes" (modern: kemur)
> �fstr > efstr "highest, last"
> g�ra > gera "do"
>
> s�kkva > s�kkva "sink"
> hj(hooked-o)rr > hj�rr
>
> When texts that do make a difference between "hooked o" and <�>
are
> transcribed and put on the internet, the "hooked o" is often
> represented by <�>, which seems logical, as this letter would
> otherwise be sitting around doing nothing, so:
>
> s�kkva > s�kkva "sink"
> hj�rr > hj�rr
>
> The letter <�> is the result of u/w-mutation of earlier /e/.
While
> hooked-o is the u/w-mutation of earlier /a/.  If that helps...
>
> Similarly the ligature <oe> appears as <�> in a lot of editions of
> Old Norse texts, especially on the the internet, just as in the
> modern language.  Cleasby & Vigfusson spell both <�>.  Zoega
> distinguishes them, but doesn't separate them alphabetically--
which
> is handy for looking up if you're not sure which it is.
>
> Ll�ma N�m
>
>
>
>
> --- In norse_course@yahoogroups.com, "Sarah Bowen"
<sarahbowen@n...>
> wrote:
> > Hi Patricia,
> >
> > Yes, it doesn't seem to matter what software a computer uses -
> none of us seem able to find the ON "o" with a little squiggle
> underneath.  Like you, I use � instead when posting up passages
from
> Au�un.
> >
> > Kve�ja,
> > Sarah.
> >   ----- Original Message -----
> >   From: Patricia
> >   To: norse_course@yahoogroups.com
> >   Sent: Saturday, January 29, 2005 12:19 AM
> >   Subject: [norse_course] Hmmmm this book by Anthony Faulkes
> >
> >
> >   EDDA - Sk�ldskaparm�l  and volume two which is the Glossary
and
> Index of names.
> >   my PC does the "strange little letters"  like � � etc, but in
> this book here I have a little o with a  wiggle underneath it
> t'would be a cedilla maybe well PC don't do that, could I use �
> instead, or would it look daft, any advice gratefully received
> >   Patricia
> >   The character map has cedilla thingies for other letters
wonder
> why not the o
> >
> >
> >
> >   A Norse funny farm, overrun by smart people.
> >
> >   Homepage: http://www.hi.is/~haukurth/norse/
> >
> >   To escape from this funny farm try rattling off an e-mail to:
> >
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> >
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> >
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Reply | Messages in this Topic (12)

#4838 From: "Sarah Bowen" <sarahbowen@...>
Date: Thu Feb 3, 2005 7:22 pm
Subject: Re: Auðun part 10/feedback Alan skbowen191102
Send Email

Hello Alan,

This passage doesn't appear to have posed you many problems :-)

Good question about "settak". I remember reading in Gordon that the -ak suffix can be subsitituted for the personal pronoun "ek". So it would just mean "I set..." But here we have "ek settak" which would seem to be a duplication. Or maybe it acts as a reinforcer?

I don't think it could be the middle voice because that is -sk (and the "s" is sometimes dropped in the 1st p plural, giving -mk as you say.)

Sorry not to be able to shed any more light on this. If no-one from within the group can tell us, I'll try my lecturer.

Cheers,

Sarah.

----- Original Message -----

From: AThompson

To: norse_course@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Tuesday, February 01, 2005 6:27 AM

Subject: RE: [norse_course] Auðun part 10

Góðan daginn

Within this passage, I can’t figure out the form “settak.” Is it middle voice? In which case I think I would have expected “settumk”.

Kveðja

Alan

Translation:

Konungr mælti: 'Er þat satt, Áki, er hann segir?'

(The) king spoke: ”Is that true, Áki, which he says?”

'Satt er þat', segir hann.

”It is true”, he says.

Konungr mælti: 'Ok þótti þér þat til liggja,

(The) king spoke: ”And did that seem to you to be fitting

þar sem ek settak þik mikinn mann,

whereas I set you up as a great man,

at hepta þat eða tálma, er maðr gørðisk til at fœra mér

to hinder or obstruct that (it), when a man takes the trouble to give me

gørsimi ok gaf fyrir alla eign?

a treasure and gave for (it) all (his) possessions?

Ok sá þat Haraldr konungr at ráði at láta hann fara í friði,

And King Harald saw that as good counsel (thought it advisable) to let him go in peace.

ok er hann várr óvinr.

and he is our enemy.

Hygg þú at þá, hvé sannligt þat var þinnar handar!

Think [you] on that, how proper that was on your hand (part)!

Ok þat væri makligt, at þú værir drepinn;

And that were (subj.) deserved, that you were (subj.) killed;

en ek mun nú eigi þat gøra, en braut skaltu fara þegar ór landinu,

but I will now not do that, but you shall go away immediately out of the country,

ok koma aldri aptr síðan mér í augsýn.

and never come back afterwards into my sight.

-----Original Message-----
From: Sarah Bowen [mailto:sarahbowen@...]
Sent: Saturday, 29 January 2005 9:33 PM
To: norse_course@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [norse_course] Auðun part 10

Aki gets his come-uppance.

Konungr mælti: "Er þat satt, Áki, er hann segir?" "Satt er þat", segir hann. Konungr mælti: "Ok þótti þér þat til liggja, þar sem ik settak þik mikinn mann, at hepta þat eða tálma, er maðr gørðisk til at foera mér gørsimi ok gaf fyrir alla eign? Ok sá þat Haraldr konungr at ráði at láta hann fara í friði, ok er hann várr óvinr. Hygg þú at þá, hvé sannligt þat var þinnar handar! Ok þat væri makligt, at þú værir drepinn; en ek mun nú eigi þat gøra, en braut skaltu fara þegar ór landinu, ok koma aldri aptr síðan mér í augsýn."

I´ll respond to the postings as they come in this week, rather than waiting for everyone - that might be quicker.

Kveðja,

Sarah.

A Norse funny farm, overrun by smart people.

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Reply | Messages in this Topic (2)

#4839 From: "Sarah Bowen" <sarahbowen@...>
Date: Thu Feb 3, 2005 7:35 pm
Subject: Re: A 10/feedback Grace skbowen191102
Send Email

Hello Grace, and well done yet again!  You seem to have found this quite
straightforward.  Only one little thing...

Ok s� �at Haraldr konungr at
And such (a man?) that king Harald

Here s� is a past tense verb (saw/thought)
at r��i means "advisable"

Word for word this little section goes -
And thought it Harald king advisable to let him travel in peace, and he is
our enemy.
Poor old Aki is now lower in king Svein�s estimation than his enemy - oops!

Kve�ja,
Sarah.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Fred and Grace Hatton" <hatton@...>
To: <norse_course@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, January 30, 2005 5:04 PM
Subject: [norse_course] A 10


>
> Aki gets his come-uppance.
>
> Konungr m�lti:  "Er �at satt, �ki, er hann segir?"  "Satt er �at",
> The king said, �Is that right, �ki, what he says?� �It is right,�
>
> segir hann.  Konungr m�lti:  "Ok ��tti ��r �at til liggja, �ar sem ik
> he says.  The king said, �And did you think it proper whereas I
>
> settak �ik mikinn mann, at hepta �at e�a t�lma, er ma�r g�r�isk til at
> appointed you (as a ) prominent man, to impede or hinder, when a man
> prepared to
>
> foera m�r g�rsimi ok gaf fyrir alla eign?  Ok s� �at Haraldr konungr at
> bring me great treasure, and gave for it all possessions? And such (a
> man?) that king Harald
>
> r��i at l�ta hann fara � fri�i, ok er hann v�rr �vinr.  Hygg �� at ��,
> decided to let him go in peace, and he (Harald) was no friend.  Do you
> think then
>
> hv� sannligt �at var �innar handar!  Ok �at v�ri makligt, at �� v�rir
> how? just it was in your hands!  And it would be proper that you were
>
> drepinn; en ek mun n� eigi �at g�ra, en braut skaltu fara �egar �r
> struck down, but I will not do that, but you shall go away at once out
from
>
> landinu, ok koma aldri aptr s��an m�r � augs�n."
> (this) country and never come back after that to my sight.� - -
> literally to me in sight.
>
> Grace
> --
>
> Fred & Grace Hatton
> Hawley, Pa.
>
>
>
>
>
>
> A Norse funny farm, overrun by smart people.
>
> Homepage: http://www.hi.is/~haukurth/norse/
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> To escape from this funny farm try rattling off an e-mail to:
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Reply | Messages in this Topic (1)

#4840 From: "Sarah Bowen" <sarahbowen@...>
Date: Thu Feb 3, 2005 7:46 pm
Subject: Au�un - section 11 skbowen191102
Send Email

Au�un gets some recognition and it�s time to move on

"En ��r, Au�un, kann ek sl�ka ��kk sem �� gefir m�r alt d�rit; ok ver h�r me� m�r!" �at �ekkisk hann, ok er me� Sveini konungi um hri�. Ok er li�u nakkvarar stundir, �� m�lti Au�un vi� konung: "Braut f�sir mik n�, herra" Konungr svarar heldr seint: "Hvar villtu ��," segir hann, "ef �� vill eigi me� oss vera?" Hann segir, "Su�r vil ek ganga." "Ef �� vildir eigi sv� gott r�� taka", segir konungr, "�� myndi m�r fyrir �ykkja �, er �� f�sisk � braut."

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Reply | Messages in this Topic (4)

#4841 From: Haukur �orgeirsson <haukurth@...>
Date: Thu Feb 3, 2005 7:56 pm
Subject: Re: Au�un part 10/feedback Alan fjornir
Send Email

> Good question about "settak".  I remember reading in Gordon that the -ak
> suffix can be subsitituted for the personal pronoun "ek".  So it would
> just mean "I set..."  But here we have "ek settak" which would seem to be
> a duplication.  Or maybe it acts as a reinforcer?

I think you're right. The suffix can be used
redundantly with the pronoun appearing as well.

Kve�ja,
Haukur

Reply | Messages in this Topic (2)

#4842 From: "llama_nom" <600cell@...>
Date: Fri Feb 4, 2005 7:14 pm
Subject: Re: Trees llama_nom
Send Email

And in V�luspa' the gods make the first man and woman out of two
trees, respectively Askr "ash" and Embla "?"--often interpreted as
some sort of derivative from almr "elm", but I don't think anyone
really knows.  Another theory relates Embla to Gk. ampelos "vine".


--- In norse_course@yahoogroups.com, "llama_nom" <600cell@o...>
wrote:
>
>
> Hello all,
>
> As well as the example Patricia gave, Hazel posts are used in
Egils
> saga to mark out the boundaries of the area where the judges sit
at
> the Gula�ing assembly.  They are used to mark out the boundaries
of
> the site where a "pitched" battle is to be fought in Egils saga
and
> Hervarar saga.  And they mark the area in which a duel is fought
in
> Korma'ks saga.  To "hazel (ON hasla) a field for someone" means to
> challenge them to battle.
>
> Tacitus, writing about the continental Germanic tribes in the 1st
> century AD, describes the practice of divination with pieces of
wood
> from a "nut-bearing tree" (Mattingley translation) marked with
> letters.  Norse sources mention such "lot twigs", but I don't know
> if any particular tree is specified.
>
> At the end of one of the two extant versions of Ragnars saga, the
> followers of Ogmund the Dane meet a giant moss-covered "wooden
man"
> (tre'ma�r) on the Danish island of Sams�, who chants some verses
at
> them, lamenting the fact that people no longer make human
sacrifices
> to him.  Certain groves were held sacred, both real (as can be
seen
> by placenames) and mythical (Glasir, Glasislundr).  In the late
11th
> century Adam of Bremen described a religious ceremony at Uppsala
> involving large scale sacrifice with bodies hung on trees of a
> sacred grove.
>
> V�luspa' and Gylfaginning mention a wood in the east called
> Ja'rnvi�r "Iron Wood", but I don't know if the name is supposed to
> indicate a particular type of tree, real or imaginary.
>
> Llama Nom
>
>
>
>
>
> --- In norse_course@yahoogroups.com, "Patricia"
> <originalpatricia@y...> wrote:
> >   Saell Michael -
> >    what a splendid reply, I shall not be going down to the
> Cemetery, I shall be taking your words for it - so to say.
> >   A Hazel Branch was the usual post to use when constructing a
> Ni�stang, this would be the Insulting "message" unfortunately you
> had to kill a horse  and chop off the poor thing's head, in Egil
> Skallagrimsson's Saga Egil did this and caused the horse's head to
> be turned to face where King Eirik and his Srewish wife Gunnhild
> were living http://nidstang.ragnarokr.com/ this is the link in
case
> you have a spare horse and hate someone enough, I fear the horse
> would doubtless be worth the more, if ridden.
> >   Yggdrasil - the World Tree was a Giant ash of course, it's
name
> means "The Terrible One's horse" and no doubt the tree on which
> Iduna's Apples grew would have been a guarded Treasure.
> >   So, from off the top of my head that's all I can call to mind
at
> present, I shall  give it some thought, thank you for your input,
it
> was of value.
> >   Kve�ja
> >   Patricia
> >     ----- Original Message -----
> >     From: Michael Murphy
> >     To: norse_course@yahoogroups.com
> >     Sent: Wednesday, February 02, 2005 10:55 AM
> >     Subject: Re: [norse_course] Re: English to Norse (sword
names)
> >
> >
> >      Hi, Patricia,
> >
> >      For what it's worth, the explanation why cemeteries were
> chosen as places to grow yew-trees is as follows. The wood of the
> yew is particularly suitable for making bows (for archers) being
> amazingly pliant and tough (try bending a yew sapling -- if you
> don't mind nipping into the nearest cemetery -- and you'll see
what
> I mean). Unfortunately, once archers discovered this, every yew-
tree
> was fair game (so to speak) and the yew-tree population in the
> British Isles soon began to plummet. Someone, probably a landowner
> or, perhaps, a church official, hit on the bright idea of growing
> them behind cemetery walls. No one would dare desecrate sacred
> ground; besides, there was also the deep-seated fear of venturing
> too close to the abode of the dead. From what I remember when I
> first read this explanation -- somewhere -- the practice
> >     dates right back to the Middle Ages.
> >
> >     Trees, of course, were also of sacred significance to the
> Celts and their priests, the Druids. The oak, the hazel, the
holly,
> the ash, etc. were revered (the word 'druid' comes from the
> Gaelic/Celtic word 'dar' -- an oak-tree + the suffix '-uid',
roughly
> meaning 'the people of').
> >
> >     I haven't come across any specific reference to the place of
> trees in Norse mythology, apart from the obvious 'ygdrasil.'  Do
you
> have any information yourself ?
> >
> >     Slan agus beannacht,
> >
> >     Mike
> >     Patricia <originalpatricia@y...> wrote:
> >         Xeon Saell,
> >         Yews are trees usually found in Cemeteries here in
> England, but I know not why, and their branches were once used to
> make Bows for Arrows,  the rune Yr signifies a yew.
> >         Dales were and still are Valles between either medium
tall
> hills  and are visualised as representing a countrified -
> agricultural oops do I mean pastoral life
> >         Patricia
> >           ----- Original Message -----
> >           From: xeon_ies
> >           To: norse_course@yahoogroups.com
> >           Sent: Tuesday, February 01, 2005 1:05 PM
> >           Subject: [norse_course] Re: English to Norse (sword
> names)
> >
> >
> >
> >           Thanks a lot for your help, Llama! I must think of
some
> way to
> >           "beautify" these names as they seem kind of awkward to
> the average
> >           reader, though.
> >
> >           By the way, Ull's hall is called Ydalir and it
> translates to "Yew
> >           Dales". What are Yews and Dales? Is it some kind of
> magical morning
> >           dew or water droplet etc.?
> >
> >           Thanks!
> >           Xeon.
> >
> >
> >           >
> >           > Hi Xeon,
> >           >
> >           > "Heiti" (poetic names) for bows:
> >           >
> >           > Almr, dalr, bogi, (elm, dale, bow)
> >           > �r ok tv�vi�r, (yew and two-wood)
> >           > sveigr, gl�r ok �rymr, (bent, sea?, stretch?)
> >           > s�mr, sk�lgelmir. (honour/fitness, bowl-?)
> >           >
> >           > "Stinger" might be 'biti' or 'b�tr', but these seem
to
> be prefered
> >           > for sword names.  I don't know if there's a
different
> word
> >           > for "arch" that doen't mean "bow" as well,
but 'bogi'
> seems to cover
> >           > both.  'Dalr' must be from the curved shape of a
> valley, and perhaps
> >           > by extension other curved things.  I've read one
> theory about the
> >           > name Heimdallr that relates it to this, in the sense
> of "horn"--and
> >           > in Hervarar saga, the Huns are said to have horn-
> bows.  So maybe
> >           > that's the connection.  Sveigr is related to the
verb
> sveigja "bend
> >           > [a bow]".  Sk�l is a bowl--could that be a reference
> to the bow's
> >           > curved shape too?
> >           >
> >           > 1) bogi/dalr/sveigr inn mikli (inn st�ri).
> >           > 2) undrbiti
> >           > 3) biti inn efsti
> >           >
> >           > I don't know what -gelmir is.  It occurs in a lot of
> mythological
> >           > names.  'Gellr' means "shrieks, twangs" (gjalla "to
> shriek/twang")
> >           > and is the word used for the noise of a bowstring,
so
> maybe you
> >           > could include that as one element: Undrgjalli, or
> something like
> >           > that.  Careful though: as we found out recently the
> Icelandic Hobbit
> >           > translates Gollum as Gollnir!
> >           >
> >           > Not sure what 'sea' has to do with bows.  Could
there
> be a
> >           > connection with similar words for "glistening,
> splendour"
> >           > and "amber"?
> >           >
> >           > Llama Nom
> >           >
> >           >
> >           >
> >           >
> >           > --- In norse_course@yahoogroups.com, "xeon_ies"
> <xeon@x> wrote:
> >           > >
> >           > > Hi Llama!
> >           > >
> >           > > I've decided to adopt the names Dugvandill and
> Harmbrenna for the
> >           > > sword names.
> >           > > And one more thing in which I'm thinking of giving
a
> name to Ull's
> >           > bow
> >           > > too. :-D
> >           > >
> >           > > What does the following words translates to?
> >           > >
> >           > > 1) "The Great Arch"
> >           > > 2) "Wonderous Stinger"
> >           > > 3) "Final stinger"
> >           > >
> >           > > Thanks,
> >           > > Xeon.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >           A Norse funny farm, overrun by smart people.
> >
> >           Homepage: http://www.hi.is/~haukurth/norse/
> >
> >           To escape from this funny farm try rattling off an e-
> mail to:
> >
> >           norse_course-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >         A Norse funny farm, overrun by smart people.
> >
> >         Homepage: http://www.hi.is/~haukurth/norse/
> >
> >         To escape from this funny farm try rattling off an e-
mail
> to:
> >
> >         norse_course-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > -----------------------------------------------------------------
--
> ---------
> >     ALL-NEW Yahoo! Messenger - all new features - even more fun!
> >
> >     A Norse funny farm, overrun by smart people.
> >
> >     Homepage: http://www.hi.is/~haukurth/norse/
> >
> >     To escape from this funny farm try rattling off an e-mail to:
> >
> >     norse_course-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> >
> >
> >
> > -----------------------------------------------------------------
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> ---------
> >     Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >       a.. To visit your group on the web, go to:
> >       http://groups.yahoo.com/group/norse_course/
> >
> >       b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> >       norse_course-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> >
> >       c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo!
Terms
> of Service.

Reply | Messages in this Topic (23)

#4843 From: "absnt_mnd_prof" <hilandfox@...>
Date: Thu Feb 3, 2005 6:25 pm
Subject: Translation Question absnt_mnd_prof
Send Email

Hi all,

I was wondering if you could give me the norse phrase and
pronunciation for "little brother."  I am a big Eaters of the
Dead/13th Warrior fan and would love to be able to use the actual old
norse for this.  Thanks in Advance.

Todd Spellman
Lincoln College

Reply | Messages in this Topic (4)

#4844 From: "llama_nom" <600cell@...>
Date: Sun Feb 6, 2005 9:49 pm
Subject: "at �v� hug�i...at" + "koma s�r e-s"? + reflexive pronouns llama_nom
Send Email

Could anyone clarify this sentence for me:

"F�ru �eir �� �t � skip, en at �v� hug�i �n, hvar hann skyldi �ess
koma s�r, at �llum ��tti s�r mest mein at."

It's from �ns saga bogsveigis.  The context is that �n, a typically
troublsome young man, and bourgeoning saga hero, has just convinced
his more upstanding but conventional elder brother to let him come
along to visit the king.

"Then they went out onto the ship," is easy enough, "and/but An
wondered..."

But what exactly is "hvar hann skyldi �ess koma s�r"?  At a guess,
could it be that he "wondered where to put himself" on the ship?
What does the genitive '�ess' relate to?

Does the first 'at' go with 'hug�i'--"he wondered [about the
following thing]"--or is 'at �v�...at' equivalent to '�v�...at' "for
this reason...because"?

In other words, is An (a) wondering where he should put himself,
given that everyone thinks he's trouble?  Or (b) is he wondering
where to go "so as to / in order to" make everyone think the worst
of him?

Or is he wondering why they think this about him, what he's done to
get this reaction?  I'm a bit confused...

Can the second 's�r' in theory refer to either An or the sailors?

Llama Nom

Reply | Messages in this Topic (1)

#4845 From: "Patricia" <originalpatricia@...>
Date: Mon Feb 7, 2005 12:09 am
Subject: Re: "at �v� hug�i...at" + "koma s�r e-s"? + reflexive pronouns originalpatr...
Send Email

Saell LN

I was puzzled over �ess koma s�r, but I think he is definitely wondering where to sit,

Zo�ga is very specific with the hvar = where - in what place (says so) and the skyldi is from

skulu - ought - in the sense to be obliged ought or should - could fit.

and he has been in trouble before you say so I'm sure he is trying to place himself conveniently out of trouble in case he gets thrown over board (??perhaps??)

The skyldi/skulu bit I dragged out of Gordon.

Hope this helps

Kve�ja

Patricia

----- Original Message -----

From: llama_nom

To: norse_course@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Sunday, February 06, 2005 9:49 PM

Subject: [norse_course] "at �v� hug�i...at" + "koma s�r e-s"? + reflexive pronouns

Could anyone clarify this sentence for me: "F�ru �eir �� t � skip, en at �v� hug�i �n, hvar hann skyldi �ess koma s�r, at �llum ��tti s�r mest mein at." It's from �ns saga bogsveigis. The context is that �n, a typically troublsome young man, and bourgeoning saga hero, has just convinced his more upstanding but conventional elder brother to let him come along to visit the king. "Then they went out onto the ship," is easy enough, "and/but An wondered..." But what exactly is "hvar hann skyldi �ess koma s�r"? At a guess, could it be that he "wondered where to put himself" on the ship? What does the genitive '�ess' relate to? Does the first 'at' go with 'hug�i'--"he wondered [about the following thing]"--or is 'at �v�...at' equivalent to '�v�...at' "for this reason...because"? In other words, is An (a) wondering where he should put himself, given that everyone thinks he's trouble? Or (b) is he wondering where to go "so as to / in order to" make everyone think the worst of him? Or is he wondering why they think this about him, what he's done to get this reaction? I'm a bit confused... Can the second 's�r' in theory refer to either An or the sailors? Llama Nom

A Norse funny farm, overrun by smart people. Homepage: http://www.hi.is/~haukurth/norse/ To escape from this funny farm try rattling off an e-mail to: norse_course-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

Reply | Messages in this Topic (2)

#4846 From: Fred and Grace Hatton <hatton@...>
Date: Fri Feb 4, 2005 2:46 pm
Subject: Au�un -11 hattonf
Send Email

I found this section to be much harder - - lots of idioms, I guess - and
had to resort to my English translation to sort out what was being said.

Subject: Au�un - section 11

Au�un gets some recognition and it�s time to move on

"En ��r, Au�un, kann ek sl�ka ��kk sem �� gefir m�r alt d�rit; ok ver
But to you, Au�un, I acknowledge such thanks as (if) you gave me the
whole bear; and stay

h�r me� m�r!"  �at �ekkisk hann, ok er me� Sveini konungi um hri�.  Ok
here with me!�  He consented (to) that, and was with King Svein for a
while.  And

er li�u nakkvarar stundir, �� m�lti Au�un vi� konung:  "Braut f�sir
when some time had passed, then Au�un spoke with the king,

   mik n�, herra"  Konungr svarar heldr seint:  "Hvar villtu ��," segir
I am eager to leave now, lord.�  The king answers rather slowly,  �Where
will you (go) then?� says he.

   hann, "ef �� vill eigi me� oss vera?"  Hann segir, "Su�r vil ek
�if you will not stay with us?�  He says, �South (on a pilgrimage) will
I go.

ganga."  "Ef �� vildir eigi sv� gott r�� taka", segir konungr, "��
If you would not (under)take such a good purpose,� says
the king, �It

myndi m�r fyrir �ykkja �, er �� f�sisk � braut."
Grace
--

Fred & Grace Hatton
Hawley, Pa.

Reply | Messages in this Topic (1)

#4847 From: "Patricia" <originalpatricia@...>
Date: Fri Feb 4, 2005 4:57 pm
Subject: Re: Au�un - section 11 originalpatr...
Send Email

Au�un Part Eleven

"En ��r, Au�un, kann ek sl�ka ��kk sem �� gefir m�r alt d�rit;

But thou, Au�un can I thank as you have brought the whole bear

But you Au�un I can thank as if you brought the the whole Bear (? in the first place?)

ok ver h�r me� m�r!" �at �ekkisk hann, ok er me� Sveini konungi um hri�.

and be here with me* this accepted him and he with King Swein a while

Will you stay here with me" this he accepted and he remained with King Swein a while

Ok er li�u nakkvarar stundir, �� m�lti Au�un vi� konung: "Braut f�sir mik n�, herra"

and he remained a time, then Au�un spoke with the King "I wish to leave now Lord*

He stayed for some time and then Au�un spoke to King Swein "I wish to leave now Lord"

Konungr svarar heldr seint: "Hvar villtu ��," segir hann, "ef �� vill eigi me� oss vera?"

King answered rather slowly. "Where wilt thou go" said he "if thou wilt not with us stay

The king answered rather slowly "Where will you go" he said "If you won't stay with me"

Swein is going all "Thou and Us here it is noticeable

Hann segir, "Su�r vil ek ganga."

he said "South will I go on Pilgrimage to Rome

he said "I shall go south in Pilgrimage (the name Rome is not spoken - is this like a kenning

Is Going South a metaphor for this "Holy Journey")

"Ef �� vildir eigi sv� gott r�� taka", segir konungr

"If thou wouldst not such a noble plan taken" said the King

"If you had not had such a noble plan

"�� myndi m�r fyrir �ykkja �, er �� f�sisk � braut."

then must to me be much distress that thou wouldst travel away.

Then I should have been "Hurt/displeased" that you wanted to leave.

His words here (Swein) seem to imply to me that he could be hurt, he was not merely a King but a man as well, and had taken a liking to Au�un

Something tells me they will be glad to see each other again, King Swein sounds very noble, as indeed does King Harald (who is a good judge of Character) I read much in between the lines, cant help it - it is there to be seen

----- Original Message -----

From: Sarah Bowen

To: norse_course@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Thursday, February 03, 2005 7:46 PM

Subject: [norse_course] Au�un - section 11

Au�un gets some recognition and it�s time to move on

"En ��r, Au�un, kann ek sl�ka ��kk sem �� gefir m�r alt d�rit; ok ver h�r me� m�r!" �at �ekkisk hann, ok er me� Sveini konungi um hri�. Ok er li�u nakkvarar stundir, �� m�lti Au�un vi� konung: "Braut f�sir mik n�, herra" Konungr svarar heldr seint: "Hvar villtu ��," segir hann, "ef �� vill eigi me� oss vera?" Hann segir, "Su�r vil ek ganga." "Ef �� vildir eigi sv� gott r�� taka", segir konungr, "�� myndi m�r fyrir �ykkja �, er �� f�sisk � braut."

A Norse funny farm, overrun by smart people. Homepage: http://www.hi.is/~haukurth/norse/ To escape from this funny farm try rattling off an e-mail to: norse_course-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

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Reply | Messages in this Topic (6)

#4848 From: "Patricia" <originalpatricia@...>
Date: Fri Feb 4, 2005 5:00 pm
Subject: Fw: Au�un - section 11 originalpatr...
Send Email

If this is a repeat, please delete it, I am re-sending simply because O/E had to close and I did not think it would reach you, you cannot trust Microspliff

Patricia

----- Original Message -----
From: Patricia

To: norse_course@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Friday, February 04, 2005 4:57 PM

Subject: Re: [norse_course] Au�un - section 11

Au�un Part Eleven

"En ��r, Au�un, kann ek sl�ka ��kk sem �� gefir m�r alt d�rit;

But thou, Au�un can I thank as you have brought the whole bear

But you Au�un I can thank as if you brought the the whole Bear (? in the first place?)

ok ver h�r me� m�r!" �at �ekkisk hann, ok er me� Sveini konungi um hri�.

and be here with me* this accepted him and he with King Swein a while

Will you stay here with me" this he accepted and he remained with King Swein a while

Ok er li�u nakkvarar stundir, �� m�lti Au�un vi� konung: "Braut f�sir mik n�, herra"

and he remained a time, then Au�un spoke with the King "I wish to leave now Lord*

He stayed for some time and then Au�un spoke to King Swein "I wish to leave now Lord"

Konungr svarar heldr seint: "Hvar villtu ��," segir hann, "ef �� vill eigi me� oss vera?"

King answered rather slowly. "Where wilt thou go" said he "if thou wilt not with us stay

The king answered rather slowly "Where will you go" he said "If you won't stay with me"

Swein is going all "Thou and Us here it is noticeable

Hann segir, "Su�r vil ek ganga."

he said "South will I go on Pilgrimage to Rome

he said "I shall go south in Pilgrimage (the name Rome is not spoken - is this like a kenning

Is Going South a metaphor for this "Holy Journey")

"Ef �� vildir eigi sv� gott r�� taka", segir konungr

"If thou wouldst not such a noble plan taken" said the King

"If you had not had such a noble plan

"�� myndi m�r fyrir �ykkja �, er �� f�sisk � braut."

then must to me be much distress that thou wouldst travel away.

Then I should have been "Hurt/displeased" that you wanted to leave.

His words here (Swein) seem to imply to me that he could be hurt, he was not merely a King but a man as well, and had taken a liking to Au�un

Something tells me they will be glad to see each other again, King Swein sounds very noble, as indeed does King Harald (who is a good judge of Character) I read much in between the lines, cant help it - it is there to be seen

----- Original Message -----

From: Sarah Bowen

To: norse_course@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Thursday, February 03, 2005 7:46 PM

Subject: [norse_course] Au�un - section 11

Au�un gets some recognition and it�s time to move on

"En ��r, Au�un, kann ek sl�ka ��kk sem �� gefir m�r alt d�rit; ok ver h�r me� m�r!" �at �ekkisk hann, ok er me� Sveini konungi um hri�. Ok er li�u nakkvarar stundir, �� m�lti Au�un vi� konung: "Braut f�sir mik n�, herra" Konungr svarar heldr seint: "Hvar villtu ��," segir hann, "ef �� vill eigi me� oss vera?" Hann segir, "Su�r vil ek ganga." "Ef �� vildir eigi sv� gott r�� taka", segir konungr, "�� myndi m�r fyrir �ykkja �, er �� f�sisk � braut."

A Norse funny farm, overrun by smart people. Homepage: http://www.hi.is/~haukurth/norse/ To escape from this funny farm try rattling off an e-mail to: norse_course-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

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Reply | Messages in this Topic (1)

#4849 From: Michael Murphy <omurc2002@...>
Date: Fri Feb 4, 2005 8:21 pm
Subject: Re: Re: Trees omurc2002
Send Email

Many thanks for the information. I must read up more on the subject. Interesting that

the hazel seems to have special significance for both cultures: Celtic and Norse.

Mike

llama_nom <600cell@...> wrote:

And in V�luspa' the gods make the first man and woman out of two trees, respectively Askr "ash" and Embla "?"--often interpreted as some sort of derivative from almr "elm", but I don't think anyone really knows. Another theory relates Embla to Gk. ampelos "vine". --- In norse_course@yahoogroups.com, "llama_nom" <600cell@o...> wrote: > > > Hello all, > > As well as the example Patricia gave, Hazel posts are used in Egils > saga to mark out the boundaries of the area where the judges sit at > the Gula�ing assembly. They are used to mark out the boundaries of > the site where a "pitched" battle is to be fought in Egils saga and > Hervarar saga. And they mark the area in which a duel is fought in > Korma'ks saga. To "hazel (ON hasla) a field for someone" means to > challenge them to battle. > > Tacitus, writing about the continental Germanic tribes in the 1st > century AD, describes the practice of divination with pieces of wood > from a "nut-bearing tree" (Mattingley translation) marked with > letters. Norse sources mention such "lot twigs", but I don't know > if any particular tree is specified. > > At the end of one of the two extant versions of Ragnars saga, the > followers of Ogmund the Dane meet a giant moss-covered "wooden man" > (tre'ma�r) on the Danish island of Sams�, who chants some verses at > them, lamenting the fact that people no longer make human sacrifices > to him. Certain groves were held sacred, both real (as can be seen > by placenames) and mythical (Glasir, Glasislundr). In the late 11th > century Adam of Bremen described a religious ceremony at Uppsala > involving large scale sacrifice with bodies hung on trees of a > sacred grove. > > V�luspa' and Gylfaginning mention a wood in the east called > Ja'rnvi�r "Iron Wood", but I don't know if the name is supposed to > indicate a particular type of tree, real or imaginary. > > Llama Nom > > > > > > --- In norse_course@yahoogroups.com, "Patricia" > <originalpatricia@y...> wrote: > > Saell Michael - > > what a splendid reply, I shall not be going down to the > Cemetery, I shall be taking your words for it - so to say. > > A Hazel Branch was the usual post to use when constructing a > Ni�stang, this would be the Insulting "message" unfortunately you > had to kill a horse and chop off the poor thing's head, in Egil > Skallagrimsson's Saga Egil did this and caused the horse's head to > be turned to face where King Eirik and his Srewish wife Gunnhild > were living http://nidstang.ragnarokr.com/ this is the link in case > you have a spare horse and hate someone enough, I fear the horse > would doubtless be worth the more, if ridden. > > Yggdrasil - the World Tree was a Giant ash of course, it's name > means "The Terrible One's horse" and no doubt the tree on which > Iduna's Apples grew would have been a guarded Treasure. > > So, from off the top of my head that's all I can call to mind at > present, I shall give it some thought, thank you for your input, it > was of value. > > Kve�ja > > Patricia > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: Michael Murphy > > To: norse_course@yahoogroups.com > > Sent: Wednesday, February 02, 2005 10:55 AM > > Subject: Re: [norse_course] Re: English to Norse (sword names) > > > > > > Hi, Patricia, > > > > For what it's worth, the explanation why cemeteries were > chosen as places to grow yew-trees is as follows. The wood of the > yew is particularly suitable for making bows (for archers) being > amazingly pliant and tough (try bending a yew sapling -- if you > don't mind nipping into the nearest cemetery -- and you'll see what > I mean). Unfortunately, once archers discovered this, every yew- tree > was fair game (so to speak) and the yew-tree population in the > British Isles soon began to plummet. Someone, probably a landowner > or, perhaps, a church official, hit on the bright idea of growing > them behind cemetery walls. No one would dare desecrate sacred > ground; besides, there was also the deep-seated fear of venturing > too close to the abode of the dead. From what I remember when I > first read this explanation -- somewhere -- the practice > > dates right back to the Middle Ages. > > > > Trees, of course, were also of sacred significance to the > Celts and their priests, the Druids. The oak, the hazel, the holly, > the ash, etc. were revered (the word 'druid' comes from the > Gaelic/Celtic word 'dar' -- an oak-tree + the suffix '-uid', roughly > meaning 'the people of'). > > > > I haven't come across any specific reference to the place of > trees in Norse mythology, apart from the obvious 'ygdrasil.' Do you > have any information yourself ? > > > > Slan agus beannacht, > > > > Mike > > Patricia <originalpatricia@y...> wrote: > > Xeon Saell, > > Yews are trees usually found in Cemeteries here in > England, but I know not why, and their branches were once used to > make Bows for Arrows, the rune Yr signifies a yew. > > Dales were and still are Valles between either medium tall > hills and are visualised as representing a countrified - > agricultural oops do I mean pastoral life > > Patricia > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: xeon_ies > > To: norse_course@yahoogroups.com > > Sent: Tuesday, February 01, 2005 1:05 PM > > Subject: [norse_course] Re: English to Norse (sword > names) > > > > > > > > Thanks a lot for your help, Llama! I must think of some > way to > > "beautify" these names as they seem kind of awkward to > the average > > reader, though. > > > > By the way, Ull's hall is called Ydalir and it > translates to "Yew > > Dales". What are Yews and Dales? Is it some kind of > magical morning > > dew or water droplet etc.? > > > > Thanks! > > Xeon. > > > > > > > > > > Hi Xeon, > > > > > > "Heiti" (poetic names) for bows: > > > > > > Almr, dalr, bogi, (elm, dale, bow) > > > �r ok tv�vi�r, (yew and two-wood) > > > sveigr, gl�r ok �rymr, (bent, sea?, stretch?) > > > s�mr, sk�lgelmir. (honour/fitness, bowl-?) > > > > > > "Stinger" might be 'biti' or 'b�tr', but these seem to > be prefered > > > for sword names. I don't know if there's a different > word > > > for "arch" that doen't mean "bow" as well, but 'bogi' > seems to cover > > > both. 'Dalr' must be from the curved shape of a > valley, and perhaps > > > by extension other curved things. I've read one > theory about the > > > name Heimdallr that relates it to this, in the sense > of "horn"--and > > > in Hervarar saga, the Huns are said to have horn- > bows. So maybe > > > that's the connection. Sveigr is related to the verb > sveigja "bend > > > [a bow]". Sk�l is a bowl--could that be a reference > to the bow's > > > curved shape too? > > > > > > 1) bogi/dalr/sveigr inn mikli (inn st�ri). > > > 2) undrbiti > > > 3) biti inn efsti > > > > > > I don't know what -gelmir is. It occurs in a lot of > mythological > > > names. 'Gellr' means "shrieks, twangs" (gjalla "to > shriek/twang") > > > and is the word used for the noise of a bowstring, so > maybe you > > > could include that as one element: Undrgjalli, or > something like > > > that. Careful though: as we found out recently the > Icelandic Hobbit > > > translates Gollum as Gollnir! > > > > > > Not sure what 'sea' has to do with bows. Could there > be a > > > connection with similar words for "glistening, > splendour" > > > and "amber"? > > > > > > Llama Nom > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In norse_course@yahoogroups.com, "xeon_ies" > <xeon@x> wrote: > > > > > > > > Hi Llama! > > > > > > > > I've decided to adopt the names Dugvandill and > Harmbrenna for the > > > > sword names. > > > > And one more thing in which I'm thinking of giving a > name to Ull's > > > bow > > > > too. :-D > > > > > > > > What does the following words translates to? > > > > > > > > 1) "The Great Arch" > > > > 2) "Wonderous Stinger" > > > > 3) "Final stinger" > > > > > > > > Thanks, > > > > Xeon. > > > > > > > > > > > > A Norse funny farm, overrun by smart people. > > > > Homepage: http://www.hi.is/~haukurth/norse/ > > > > To escape from this funny farm try rattling off an e- > mail to: > > > > norse_course-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > > > > > > > A Norse funny farm, overrun by smart people. > > > > Homepage: http://www.hi.is/~haukurth/norse/ > > > > To escape from this funny farm try rattling off an e- mail > to: > > > > norse_course-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------- -- > --------- > > ALL-NEW Yahoo! Messenger - all new features - even more fun! > > > > A Norse funny farm, overrun by smart people. > > > > Homepage: http://www.hi.is/~haukurth/norse/ > > > > To escape from this funny farm try rattling off an e-mail to: > > > > norse_course-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------- -- > --------- > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/norse_course/ > > > > b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > > norse_course-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms > of Service.

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#4850 From: "AThompson" <athompso@...>
Date: Sat Feb 5, 2005 5:21 am
Subject: RE: Auðun - section 11 alysseann
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Góðan daginn

Thank you Sarah and Haukur for explanation on settak. Sarah, I found the section in Gordon regarding the suffixing of ek to verbs. In Grammar §108, it states ”ek was often suffixed to its verb, especially in poetry, as mæli-k ’I speak’...” but nothing explicitly on it being used redundantly.

With respect to the middle voice, even though it may not be relevant to settak, according to Gordon the middle voice form of the verb consisted of the active form with a reflexive pronoun suffixed. But, if you look at the middle voice paradigms at Gordon §118, §136 and §141, the 1st person always ends in -mk (suffixed pronoun mik with lost vowel). It also notes at §125 that 1 pl took its ending –mk from 1 sg. However, in modern Icelandic, the middle voice ending is always –st (derived from sik (now sig) which became –sk and subsequently –st. My question is: when did this change occur and how quickly did it happen?

Turning to the current text, I was interested in mér fyrir þykkja which Gordon translation as ’I am displeased’. It seems (how apposite!) that þykkja has two broad senses: (1) ’to seem’ and (2) ’to be displeased’ (usually when fyrir is attached) and I was wondering whether somehow two different verbs had somehow been assimilated into one. I notice that in modern Icelandic the verb has become þykja (with a single k) (however still with both senses) but there is a noun þykkja (f) meaning anger, displeasure, resentment which retains the double-k.

Also, how long do people think Auðun stays with King Sveinn, ie do um hrið and nakkvarar stundir represent 5 minutes, 5 days, 5 months, or longer?

Kveðja

Alan

Translation – Auðun 11

En þér, Auðun, kann ek slíka þǫkk

But to you, Auðun, I give such thanks

sem þú gefir mér alt dýrit; ok ver hér með mér!'

as (if) you give me all the animal; and (you shall) be (stay) here with me!’

Þat þekkisk hann, ok er með Sveini konungi um hríð.

He accepts that, and is (stays) with King Sveinn a while.

Ok er liðu nakkvarar stundir, þá mælti Auðun við konung:

And when some time (pl) passed, then Auðun spoke with (the) king:

'Braut fýsir mik nú, herra.'

’(It) urges me (to go) away (I desire to depart) now, Lord.’

Konungr svarar heldr seint: 'Hvar villtu þá',

(The) king answers rather slowly: ’Where do you want (to go) then,’

segir hann, 'ef þú vill eigi með oss vera?'

he says, ’if you do not want to stay (be) with us?

Hann segir, 'Suðr vil ek ganga.'

He says, ’’I want to walk (pilgrimage) south [ie to Rome].’

'Ef þú vildir eigi svá gott ráð taka', segir konungr,

’If you did not want to take (adopt) such a good plan,’ says (the) king,

'þá myndi mér fyrir þykkja í, er þú fýsisk í braut.'

’then it would displease me, when you urge yourself (are eager) (to go) away.’

-----Original Message-----
From: Sarah Bowen [mailto:sarahbowen@...]
Sent: Friday, 4 February 2005 6:46 AM
To: norse_course@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [norse_course] Auðun - section 11

Auðun gets some recognition and it´s time to move on

"En þér, Auðun, kann ek slíka þökk sem þú gefir mér alt dýrit; ok ver hér með mér!" Þat þekkisk hann, ok er með Sveini konungi um hrið. Ok er liðu nakkvarar stundir, þá mælti Auðun við konung: "Braut fýsir mik nú, herra" Konungr svarar heldr seint: "Hvar villtu þá," segir hann, "ef þú vill eigi með oss vera?" Hann segir, "Suðr vil ek ganga." "Ef þú vildir eigi svá gott ráð taka", segir konungr, "þá myndi mér fyrir þykkja í, er þú fýsisk í braut."

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#4851 From: "akoddsson" <konrad_oddsson@...>
Date: Fri Feb 4, 2005 4:12 pm
Subject: Re: hooked-o, � correction konrad_oddsson
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Heill Llama.

--- In norse_course@yahoogroups.com, "llama_nom" <600cell@o...>:
> > The letter <�> is the result of u/w-mutation of earlier /e/.
>
> True in some cases...e.g. s�kkva, r�ru, where the /e/ goes back to
> Proto Norse, and g�ra < *garwjan--where the /e/ was the i-umlaut
> of /a/.
>
> But sometimes it has a different origin.  Other sources of <�>:
>
> i-umlaut of /o/, as in k�mr.
> i-umlaut of hooked-o, as in h�ggr (inf. h�ggva).
>
> Llama Nom

Right. Essentially, if the � (sometimes called �2) resulting from
both i- AND u-umlaut of a was pronounced differently than the �
resulting from i-umlaut of o, then ON had 10 vowels, not 9 (which
includes the short, long, and long nasalized vesions) ;)

Konrad


>
>
> --- In norse_course@yahoogroups.com, "llama_nom" <600cell@o...>
> wrote:
> >
> >
> > Patricia,
> >
> > A lot of books/editions/texts spell both "hooked o" and <�> as
in
> > Modern Icelandic: <�>.  In certain words though, <�> later
became
> > <e>, and is so spelt in some editions of Old Norse texts too.
> >
> > k�mr > kemr "comes" (modern: kemur)
> > �fstr > efstr "highest, last"
> > g�ra > gera "do"
> >
> > s�kkva > s�kkva "sink"
> > hj(hooked-o)rr > hj�rr
> >
> > When texts that do make a difference between "hooked o" and <�>
> are
> > transcribed and put on the internet, the "hooked o" is often
> > represented by <�>, which seems logical, as this letter would
> > otherwise be sitting around doing nothing, so:
> >
> > s�kkva > s�kkva "sink"
> > hj�rr > hj�rr
> >
> > The letter <�> is the result of u/w-mutation of earlier /e/.
> While
> > hooked-o is the u/w-mutation of earlier /a/.  If that helps...
> >
> > Similarly the ligature <oe> appears as <�> in a lot of editions
of
> > Old Norse texts, especially on the the internet, just as in the
> > modern language.  Cleasby & Vigfusson spell both <�>.  Zoega
> > distinguishes them, but doesn't separate them alphabetically--
> which
> > is handy for looking up if you're not sure which it is.
> >
> > Ll�ma N�m
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --- In norse_course@yahoogroups.com, "Sarah Bowen"
> <sarahbowen@n...>
> > wrote:
> > > Hi Patricia,
> > >
> > > Yes, it doesn't seem to matter what software a computer uses -
> > none of us seem able to find the ON "o" with a little squiggle
> > underneath.  Like you, I use � instead when posting up passages
> from
> > Au�un.
> > >
> > > Kve�ja,
> > > Sarah.
> > >   ----- Original Message -----
> > >   From: Patricia
> > >   To: norse_course@yahoogroups.com
> > >   Sent: Saturday, January 29, 2005 12:19 AM
> > >   Subject: [norse_course] Hmmmm this book by Anthony Faulkes
> > >
> > >
> > >   EDDA - Sk�ldskaparm�l  and volume two which is the Glossary
> and
> > Index of names.
> > >   my PC does the "strange little letters"  like � � etc, but
in
> > this book here I have a little o with a  wiggle underneath it
> > t'would be a cedilla maybe well PC don't do that, could I use �
> > instead, or would it look daft, any advice gratefully received
> > >   Patricia
> > >   The character map has cedilla thingies for other letters
> wonder
> > why not the o
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >   A Norse funny farm, overrun by smart people.
> > >
> > >   Homepage: http://www.hi.is/~haukurth/norse/
> > >
> > >   To escape from this funny farm try rattling off an e-mail to:
> > >
> > >   norse_course-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ---------------------------------------------------------------
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> --
> > -----------
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> > >
> > >     a.. To visit your group on the web, go to:
> > >     http://groups.yahoo.com/group/norse_course/
> > >
> > >     b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> > >     norse_course-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> > >
> > >     c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo!
Terms
> > of Service.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
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> > > Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
> > > Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.8.1 - Release Date:
> > 27/01/2005

Reply | Messages in this Topic (12)

#4852 From: "Laurel Bradshaw" <llawryf@...>
Date: Tue Feb 8, 2005 4:17 pm
Subject: Re: Auðun - section 11 llawryf
Send Email

I have a bit more free time now that one of my temp. jobs has ended. At
least until something else comes along! I hope I'll be able to get caught up
a bit in the next few weeks.......

Laurel

Reply | Messages in this Topic (2)

#4853 From: "Patricia" <originalpatricia@...>
Date: Sat Feb 5, 2005 6:12 pm
Subject: Re: Re: English to Norse (sword names) originalpatr...
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Saell Xeon, Llama,

Please will you note the possibility of my having made an error, in offering Dragvandil - Slicer as Egil's sword because in a copy of the Saga of Egil Skallagrimsson I have found a "Draupnir" and that too is translated as slicer, I so do not wish to spoil your work by offering an incorrect name, I am pointing this out now rather than you find this later, when it might be too late to correct, you would want to take the word you feel is best ??

Kve�ja

Patricia

----- Original Message -----

From: xeon_ies

To: norse_course@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Tuesday, February 01, 2005 1:05 PM

Subject: [norse_course] Re: English to Norse (sword names)

Thanks a lot for your help, Llama! I must think of some way to "beautify" these names as they seem kind of awkward to the average reader, though. By the way, Ull's hall is called Ydalir and it translates to "Yew Dales". What are Yews and Dales? Is it some kind of magical morning dew or water droplet etc.? Thanks! Xeon. > > Hi Xeon, > > "Heiti" (poetic names) for bows: > > Almr, dalr, bogi, (elm, dale, bow) > �r ok tv�vi�r, (yew and two-wood) > sveigr, gl�r ok �rymr, (bent, sea?, stretch?) > s�mr, sk�lgelmir. (honour/fitness, bowl-?) > > "Stinger" might be 'biti' or 'b�tr', but these seem to be prefered > for sword names. I don't know if there's a different word > for "arch" that doen't mean "bow" as well, but 'bogi' seems to cover > both. 'Dalr' must be from the curved shape of a valley, and perhaps > by extension other curved things. I've read one theory about the > name Heimdallr that relates it to this, in the sense of "horn"--and > in Hervarar saga, the Huns are said to have horn-bows. So maybe > that's the connection. Sveigr is related to the verb sveigja "bend > [a bow]". Sk�l is a bowl--could that be a reference to the bow's > curved shape too? > > 1) bogi/dalr/sveigr inn mikli (inn st�ri). > 2) undrbiti > 3) biti inn efsti > > I don't know what -gelmir is. It occurs in a lot of mythological > names. 'Gellr' means "shrieks, twangs" (gjalla "to shriek/twang") > and is the word used for the noise of a bowstring, so maybe you > could include that as one element: Undrgjalli, or something like > that. Careful though: as we found out recently the Icelandic Hobbit > translates Gollum as Gollnir! > > Not sure what 'sea' has to do with bows. Could there be a > connection with similar words for "glistening, splendour" > and "amber"? > > Llama Nom > > > > > --- In norse_course@yahoogroups.com, "xeon_ies" <xeon@x> wrote: > > > > Hi Llama! > > > > I've decided to adopt the names Dugvandill and Harmbrenna for the > > sword names. > > And one more thing in which I'm thinking of giving a name to Ull's > bow > > too. :-D > > > > What does the following words translates to? > > > > 1) "The Great Arch" > > 2) "Wonderous Stinger" > > 3) "Final stinger" > > > > Thanks, > > Xeon.

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#4854 From: "Fernando Guerrero" <cualfer@...>
Date: Tue Feb 8, 2005 8:39 pm
Subject: Re: Re: English to Norse (sword names) fernandur2000
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Saell Patricia, Xeon ok Llama,

As for Draupnr, it is very curious to find it as a sword name, as it is the name of the ring which Odinn put in Balder's funeral pyre. Both Snorri's and the Poetic Edda attest this, and made it very clear that it was a golden ring from which every ninth night nine oher rings dripped. Thus the ON name Draupnir is believed to mean 'the dripper'.

It is also a dwarves name in the Thulur, which contrasted with the ring which produces more rings and the fact that dwarves ars good goldsmiths seems to have something to do with smithing rather than slicing.

Interesting re-use of the myth in the saga.

Which chapter is it in?

Cheers

Fernando Guerrero

Centre for Medieval Studies

University of York, King's Manor

Y01 7EP, York

----- Original Message -----

From: Patricia

To: norse_course@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Saturday, February 05, 2005 6:12 PM

Subject: Re: [norse_course] Re: English to Norse (sword names)

Saell Xeon, Llama,

Please will you note the possibility of my having made an error, in offering Dragvandil - Slicer as Egil's sword because in a copy of the Saga of Egil Skallagrimsson I have found a "Draupnir" and that too is translated as slicer, I so do not wish to spoil your work by offering an incorrect name, I am pointing this out now rather than you find this later, when it might be too late to correct, you would want to take the word you feel is best ??

Kve�ja

Patricia

----- Original Message -----

From: xeon_ies

To: norse_course@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Tuesday, February 01, 2005 1:05 PM

Subject: [norse_course] Re: English to Norse (sword names)

Thanks a lot for your help, Llama! I must think of some way to "beautify" these names as they seem kind of awkward to the average reader, though. By the way, Ull's hall is called Ydalir and it translates to "Yew Dales". What are Yews and Dales? Is it some kind of magical morning dew or water droplet etc.? Thanks! Xeon. > > Hi Xeon, > > "Heiti" (poetic names) for bows: > > Almr, dalr, bogi, (elm, dale, bow) > �r ok tv�vi�r, (yew and two-wood) > sveigr, gl�r ok �rymr, (bent, sea?, stretch?) > s�mr, sk�lgelmir. (honour/fitness, bowl-?) > > "Stinger" might be 'biti' or 'b�tr', but these seem to be prefered > for sword names. I don't know if there's a different word > for "arch" that doen't mean "bow" as well, but 'bogi' seems to cover > both. 'Dalr' must be from the curved shape of a valley, and perhaps > by extension other curved things. I've read one theory about the > name Heimdallr that relates it to this, in the sense of "horn"--and > in Hervarar saga, the Huns are said to have horn-bows. So maybe > that's the connection. Sveigr is related to the verb sveigja "bend > [a bow]". Sk�l is a bowl--could that be a reference to the bow's > curved shape too? > > 1) bogi/dalr/sveigr inn mikli (inn st�ri). > 2) undrbiti > 3) biti inn efsti > > I don't know what -gelmir is. It occurs in a lot of mythological > names. 'Gellr' means "shrieks, twangs" (gjalla "to shriek/twang") > and is the word used for the noise of a bowstring, so maybe you > could include that as one element: Undrgjalli, or something like > that. Careful though: as we found out recently the Icelandic Hobbit > translates Gollum as Gollnir! > > Not sure what 'sea' has to do with bows. Could there be a > connection with similar words for "glistening, splendour" > and "amber"? > > Llama Nom > > > > > --- In norse_course@yahoogroups.com, "xeon_ies" <xeon@x> wrote: > > > > Hi Llama! > > > > I've decided to adopt the names Dugvandill and Harmbrenna for the > > sword names. > > And one more thing in which I'm thinking of giving a name to Ull's > bow > > too. :-D > > > > What does the following words translates to? > > > > 1) "The Great Arch" > > 2) "Wonderous Stinger" > > 3) "Final stinger" > > > > Thanks, > > Xeon.

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A Norse funny farm, overrun by smart people. Homepage: http://www.hi.is/~haukurth/norse/ To escape from this funny farm try rattling off an e-mail to: norse_course-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

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#4855 From: Haukur �orgeirsson <haukurth@...>
Date: Wed Feb 9, 2005 2:18 am
Subject: RE: Au�un - section 11 fjornir
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> With respect to the middle voice, even though it may not be relevant to
> settak, according to Gordon the middle voice form of the verb consisted of
> the active form with a reflexive pronoun suffixed. But, if you look at the
> middle voice paradigms at Gordon §118, §136 and §141, the 1st person
> always ends in -mk (suffixed pronoun mik with lost vowel). It also notes
> at §125 that 1 pl took its ending –mk from 1 sg. However, in modern
> Icelandic, the middle voice ending is always –st (derived from sik (now
> sig) which became –sk and subsequently –st. My question is: when did
> this change occur and how quickly did it happen?

I think 'sk' only occurs in the oldest manuscripts.
Later on the ending is often spelled 'z'.

The 14th century ms. Flateyjarb�k contains, among many
other things, Au�unar ��ttr vestfirzka. Here's an image
from the beginning of �lafs saga Haraldssonar:

http://www-theory.chem.washington.edu/~hannes/Ice2000/FlateyjarbokZoom.jpg

Here the ending seems to be 'zst'. Below the picture of
the tyrant getting his comeuppance - sorry, I mean the
martyr death of St. Olaf - and a little to the right you
can find 'fanzst'. In the same column, the sixth line from
the bottom, you can find 'synizst'.


> Also, how long do people think Au�un stays with King Sveinn, ie do um
> hr�� and nakkvarar stundir represent 5 minutes, 5 days, 5 months, or
> longer?

Good question and I have no answer. Maybe we can make
an educated guess from the context of the story. Wasn't
there something at the start about Au�un's mother being
provided for for a certain amount of time? And how long
do you figure the rest of Au�un's adventures take?

Let's see. Au�un's mother will last three winters.
Au�un spends the first winter in Norway with ��rir.
He spends the second winter in Greenland with the same.
He arrives at Sveinn's during summer and after the
'hr�� / nakkvarar stundir' he goes to Rome. He returns
next Easter. That spring he returns to Iceland to support
his mother.

I'd guess Au�un didn't want to make the long journey during
mid-winter and it takes some time to see the sights in Rome
(there is no place there not smeared with the blood of holy men,
according to F�stbroe�ra saga).

So, shall we say 5 weeks?

Kve�ja,
Haukur

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