Dear Sirs and Ladies!
Let me introduce the second lesson of my course:
http://norse.ulver.com/onorse/les40/lesson2e.html
All suggestions are welcome!
Tim Stridmann

--- In norse_course@yahoogroups.com, "Tim Stridmann" <stridmann@...>
wrote:
>
> Dear Sirs and Ladies!
> Let me introduce the second lesson of my course:
> http://norse.ulver.com/onorse/les40/lesson2e.html
> All suggestions are welcome!
> Tim Stridmann


Hi Tim,

Great idea!  Thanks for posting the link.  I like the cartoons too,
especially Kráka's fishy ornaments.

An older form of 'éta' is 'eta'.  But I'm not sure when the vowel was
lengthened, or whether there's any anachronism in using 'éta'
alongside other old forms.

'Vér eigum þrjú börn.'  Wouldn't the dual 'vit' be used here rather
than 'vér'?

'Hrafn er heimskri mér.'  Should this be 'heimskari'?  E.g. Gísla
saga: Hon fór heim ok var þá nökkuru heimskari en áðr ef á mætti goeða
"She went home and was them rather more foolish than before, if that
was possible."

'elska at...'  Is it possible that this is a modernism?  I'm not sure
about that, but I couldn't find any Old Icelandic examples in
Cleasby/Vigfússon or Fritzner, or in the Órðabók Háskólans database.

http://www.lexis.hi.is/corpus/leit.pl?lemma=elska&ofl=&leita=1&flokkar=Fornrit&m\
1=elska+elskan+elskanna+elskna+elsknanna+elsku+elskum+elskuna+elskunnar+elskunni\
+elskunum+elskur+elskurnar+elskann&l1=Leita&m2=elska+elska%F0+elska%F0a+elska%F0\
an+elska%F0ar+elska%F0i+elska%F0ir+elska%F0ist+elska%F0ra+elska%F0rar+elska%F0ri\
+elska%F0s+elska%F0u+elska%F0ur+elskandi+elskar+elskast+elski+elski%F0+elskir+el\
skist+elsku%F0+elsku%F0u+elsku%F0u%F0+elsku%F0um+elsku%F0umst+elsku%F0ust+elskum\
+elskumst+elskazt&lmax=2

Llama Nom

A couple more minor points that just occurred to me:

'hundrad' (on the English side) should be 'hundred'

As a native speaker of (British) English, I would say either "I am
eleven" or "I am eleven years old" (but probably not * "I am eleven
years", unless I really wanted to emphasise "years" for some reason,
e.g. if someone has suggested that I was eleven months, or eleven
centuries).  If I was an unusual age (such as 200!), I would probably
use the longer version, "I am 200 years old", if I wanted to avoid any
confusion on the part of the listener.

"I am oldest/youngest."  I think it would be more normal to say in
English "I am the oldest/youngest" in this context.

"I am trollish girl."  I would expect the indefinite article here: "I
am a troll-girl."

Ok feðgin mín eru trollar.  'troll' is a neuter noun, so the
nominative plural is 'troll' just like the singular.

"Eotonsdotter".  The Old English cognate 'eoten' survived in later
English with various spellings.  The most recent example in the Oxford
English dictionary is from 1611, 'ettin'.  So, as an alternative
possibility, you could have "Ettin's daughter" or "Etten's daughter"
or similar -- but I guess that's a matter of taste.  The word is
obsolete, and fell out of use before a single fixed system of spelling
was established.  It's probably best known nowadays from JRR Tolkien's
invented placename The Ettenmoors [
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ettenmoors ].

LN



--- In norse_course@yahoogroups.com, "Tim Stridmann" <stridmann@...>
wrote:
>
> Dear Sirs and Ladies!
> Let me introduce the second lesson of my course:
> http://norse.ulver.com/onorse/les40/lesson2e.html
> All suggestions are welcome!
> Tim Stridmann
>

--- In norse_course@yahoogroups.com, "llama_nom" <600cell@...> wrote:
>
> --- In norse_course@yahoogroups.com, "Tim Stridmann" <stridmann@>
> wrote:
> >
> > Dear Sirs and Ladies!
> > Let me introduce the second lesson of my course:
> > http://norse.ulver.com/onorse/les40/lesson2e.html
> > All suggestions are welcome!
> > Tim Stridmann



> An older form of 'éta' is 'eta'. But I'm not sure when the vowel was
> lengthened, or whether there's any anachronism in using 'éta'
> alongside other old forms.

"Éta" sounds a bit anachronistic - I would use "eta" (which is still
used by a minority of Icelanders, actually). And, BTW, the sentence
"ek éta menn" is wrong - the 1 sing is "et/ét".

> 'Vér eigum þrjú börn.' Wouldn't the dual 'vit' be used here rather
> than 'vér'?

Absolutely.

> 'Hrafn er heimskri mér.' Should this be 'heimskari'?

In my opinion, yes.

> 'elska at...' Is it possible that this is a modernism? I'm not sure
> about that, but I couldn't find any Old Icelandic examples in
> Cleasby/Vigfússon or Fritzner, or in the Órðabók Háskólans database.

This is very recent usage, totally anachronistic. It was not in
general
use in my part of the country when I was a child. It is the influence
of
English on the younger modern generations, who have taken the
semantics
of the English "love" and superimposed them upon "elska" (the meaning
of
which is much narrower).

ADDITIONAL NOTES:

Trollshjón and trollsbörn both sound rather awkward. Trollhjón and
trollabörn would sound more normal.

Hjón does not mean "family".

"Mér líka úlfar" would be better than "mér líkar við úlfa". Having
said
that, though, I think this usage of "líka" to equal the English "like"
is rather recent. In OI the meaning was closer to "please". (But you
could claim that these two meanings are the same.) I have never seen
or
heard "líka" used with "til".

"Ellri Hrafns" is impossible, as far as I'm concerned. It would have
to be "ellri Hrafni", or simply "ellri en Hrafn".

"Feðgin", at least in prose, more normally means "father and
daughter",
not "parents".

"Fífla" (fem!) is non-existent. "Fífl" is a neuter, and is used of
both genders.

The plural of troll/tröll is troll/tröll. There is no such word as
"trollar".

Regards,
Eysteinn

> > 'elska at...' Is it possible that this is a modernism?
> This is very recent usage, totally anachronistic.

I've found such exaples:

"...elskaði hún hann mjög..." (EYRBYGGJA SAGA)
"...Signý elskaði hann..." (HRANA SAGA HRINGS)
"Haraldur konungur elskaði mjög Íslendinga." (SNEGLU-HALLA ÞÁTTUR)

> Hjón does not mean "family".

I know. This means "married couple, husband and wife", nut i wanted
the simple word for translation.

> "Feðgin", at least in prose, more normally means "father and
> daughter", not "parents".
> "Fífla" (fem!) is non-existent. "Fífl" is a neuter, and is used of
> both genders.

In both cases, see A Concise Dictionary of Old Icelandic, by Geir T.
Zoëga.

THANK YOU ALL A LOT!
I'll make the updates soon!

Tim

--- In norse_course@yahoogroups.com, "Stridmann" <stridmann@...> wrote:
>
> > > 'elska at...' Is it possible that this is a modernism?
> > This is very recent usage, totally anachronistic.
>
> I've found such exaples:
>
> "...elskaði hún hann mjög..." (EYRBYGGJA SAGA)
> "...Signý elskaði hann..." (HRANA SAGA HRINGS)
> "Haraldur konungur elskaði mjög Íslendinga." (SNEGLU-HALLA ÞÁTTUR)

Hi Tim,

Sorry, I didn't really explain clearly enough what I meant.  The
difference is that in each of these examples, the complement/object of
the verb is a noun.  This is perfectly normal in Old Icelandic; most,
though not all, of the examples I saw had an animate noun as the
complement, as in these three examples.  The anachronism is the use of
'elska' with a clausal complement such as 'at ganga náttliga' to
describe an action which the subject of the verb 'elska' "likes/loves
to do".

LN

We had a discussion here recently about the complications of saying "I
like" in Icelandic [
http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/norse_course/message/7913 ].

I wonder if this sentence could be amended to:

Mér þykkir gaman at ganga á nóttum.

Compare Ögmundar þáttr dytts: mér þykkir gaman at hafa hálflit klæði
"I like to wear / enjoy wearing clothes of two colours."



--- In norse_course@yahoogroups.com, "llama_nom" <600cell@...> wrote:
>
> --- In norse_course@yahoogroups.com, "Stridmann" <stridmann@> wrote:
> >
> > > > 'elska at...' Is it possible that this is a modernism?
> > > This is very recent usage, totally anachronistic.
> >
> > I've found such exaples:
> >
> > "...elskaði hún hann mjög..." (EYRBYGGJA SAGA)
> > "...Signý elskaði hann..." (HRANA SAGA HRINGS)
> > "Haraldur konungur elskaði mjög Íslendinga." (SNEGLU-HALLA ÞÁTTUR)
>
> Hi Tim,
>
> Sorry, I didn't really explain clearly enough what I meant.  The
> difference is that in each of these examples, the complement/object of
> the verb is a noun.  This is perfectly normal in Old Icelandic; most,
> though not all, of the examples I saw had an animate noun as the
> complement, as in these three examples.  The anachronism is the use of
> 'elska' with a clausal complement such as 'at ganga náttliga' to
> describe an action which the subject of the verb 'elska' "likes/loves
> to do".
>
> LN
>

--- In norse_course@yahoogroups.com, "llama_nom" <600cell@...> wrote:

> Mér þykkir gaman at ganga á nóttum.

Or: "um nætr".

Or: Nætrferðir eru mér til skaps (or: at skapi).
Or: Nætrgöngur falla mér vel.
Or: Gótt er um nætr at ganga.

Etc. etc.

Rgds,
E.

--- In norse_course@yahoogroups.com, "Stridmann" <stridmann@...>
wrote:
>
> > > 'elska at...' Is it possible that this is a modernism?
> > This is very recent usage, totally anachronistic.
>
> I've found such exaples:
>
> "...elskaði hún hann mjög..." (EYRBYGGJA SAGA)
> "...Signý elskaði hann..." (HRANA SAGA HRINGS)
> "Haraldur konungur elskaði mjög Íslendinga." (SNEGLU-HALLA ÞÁTTUR)

These are not examples of the same usage. I seriously
doubt anybody would have said "ég elska að ganga" in
medieval Iceland. Even today it sounds like a forced
translation from the English. "Elska" did not have the
wide range of meanings "love" has. It was not used of
casual "likes". The meaning is closer to "love dearly"
and you generally only "elska" people, loved ones and
friends, and gods, I guess. I doubt there are many
examples of people who "elska" things, and actions.
But if you can find it somewhere, by all means use it.
I would be very interested to hear if you can locate
and ON or OI example of "elska" with an infinitive. That
would certainly be one for the books.

As for "fífla" (n), yes, it exists, but is apparently
very rare in usage (and perhaps not an ideal word to
use in a primer for beginners). Actually, Zoega says
it means "wanton girl"! It does not occur in any saga,
according to the concordance, but is only found (twice)
in the compound "meðalfífla" (in Grett. and Gísl.).
Normally, a woman would just be called a "fífl", as in
Kormáks saga, Chapter 9:

"... því að þessi kona er fífl og engum duganda manni
við sæmanda ..."

I may not be a very good idea to teach absolute
beginners to use extremely rare and odd words as if
they were in general usage. But you're the boss!

Regards and good luck,
Eysteinn

Heill Llama!

--- In norse_course@yahoogroups.com, "llama_nom" <600cell@...> wrote:
>
> We had a discussion here recently about the complications of
saying "I like" in Icelandic [
http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/norse_course/message/7913 ].

I missed this. An interesting sidenote here about the verb 'langa':

'The verb langa has a personal construction: til slícs fagnaþar
scylde hveR maþr langa 27r20 (Hómilíubók), 31v13, etc.' (Van Weenen,
Icelandic Homily Book). I'm not sure if there are any parallel
obsolete usages of 'líka', but **mér líkar hangikjöt won't work in
Modern Icelandic. I can't explain why this is so - for some reason it
breaks with inherited usage-tradition. Interestingly, the verb
mirrors Modern English usage in the mainland Scandinavian languages
(for example, eg likar hangekjot, Modern Norwegian). It could just be
English influence, but I'm not sure. In my opinion, the contructions
'mér líkar vel/illa við hangikjöt/eitthvað/einhvern'
(something/someone) are very good, classic modern usage, whatever the
history. But if I ever run across archaic or obsolete usages
of 'líka', I'll rememeber to post them here for discussion ;)

Regards,
Konrad

> I wonder if this sentence could be amended to:
>
> Mér þykkir gaman at ganga á nóttum.
>
> Compare Ögmundar þáttr dytts: mér þykkir gaman at hafa hálflit klæði
> "I like to wear / enjoy wearing clothes of two colours."
>
>
> --- In norse_course@yahoogroups.com, "llama_nom" <600cell@> wrote:
> >
> > --- In norse_course@yahoogroups.com, "Stridmann" <stridmann@>
wrote:
> > >
> > > > > 'elska at...' Is it possible that this is a modernism?
> > > > This is very recent usage, totally anachronistic.
> > >
> > > I've found such exaples:
> > >
> > > "...elskaði hún hann mjög..." (EYRBYGGJA SAGA)
> > > "...Signý elskaði hann..." (HRANA SAGA HRINGS)
> > > "Haraldur konungur elskaði mjög Íslendinga." (SNEGLU-HALLA
ÞÁTTUR)
> >
> > Hi Tim,
> >
> > Sorry, I didn't really explain clearly enough what I meant.  The
difference is that in each of these examples, the complement/object of
the verb is a noun.  This is perfectly normal in Old Icelandic; most,
though not all, of the examples I saw had an animate noun as the
complement, as in these three examples.  The anachronism is the use of
'elska' with a clausal complement such as 'at ganga náttliga' to
describe an action which the subject of the verb 'elska' "likes/loves
to do".
> >
> > LN
> >
>

Vertu heill Konráð!

> an interesting sidenote here about the verb 'langa':
>
> 'The verb langa has a personal construction: til slícs fagnaþar
> scylde hveR maþr langa 27r20 (Hómilíubók), 31v13, etc.' (Van Weenen,
> Icelandic Homily Book).

Could this be anything to do with the fact that there is another verb
dependent on 'skyldi' in this sentence: '...skyldi hverr maðr langa ok
of þat önn ala...'?  But searching on Google, I find Modern Icelandic
examples such as 'mig langar og ætla', so maybe that's not a factor.
Or could the example in Hómilíubók have been influenced by some Latin
usage?  I don't know much about the history of it, so I don't know if
that's likely, but the religious subject matter makes me wonder.  The
Old English verb 'langian' has a nominative subject when it means "to
lengthen", but has accusative when it means "to want, to long for"
just as in Icelandic.

Þórhallur Eyþórsson has some more examples of nominative in place of
the usual accusative in Old Icelandic in: 'Dative vs. Nomination:
Changes in quirky subjects in Icelandic'.

"...the investigation showed that the substitution of nominative for
oblique cases is attested already in Old Icelandic, affecting various
kinds of quirky subjects (or subject-like NPs), including Experiencers
(at least with dreyma `dream', gruna `suspect', langa `want', ugga
`fear' and undra `wonder'). Some examples of N[ominativbe] S[ickness]
from Old Icelandic texts are given in (7):"

(7) a.

Ein kona... dreymdi þann dróm.
one woman-nom dreamt-3.sg that dream
`One woman... dreamt that dream.' (Mar.: 1029)

b.

þóttist hann ok spurt hafa, at Orkneyíngar myndi
seemed he also learned have that Orkneymen-nom would-3.pl

lítt lánga til, at hann kæmi vestr þagat.
little want to that he came westward thither

`It also seemed to him that the men of the Orkneys would not be
eager for him to come here to the west.' (Fms. VII:28)

c.

þetta undra víkingar.
this wonder-3.pl vikings-nom
`The vikings wondered at this.' (Fas. II:530)
_____________________________________________

But apparently, there is only one example of a dative being used in
Old Icelandic with such a verb that would normally have an accusative
"logical subject" ('honum skortir' in Grágás) -- although I gather
this has become a common (non-standard / frowned-upon) variant in
Modern Icelandic.  Regarding which, I found an curious comment here
about half-correct usages, with a mixture of accusative and dative,
such as * 'mig langar og honum líka' "I want and so does he" (!) [
http://www.ma.is/kenn/svp/pistlar/mars03.htm ] (líka = "also", not the
verb 'líka') -- due to people having being taught that 'mig langar' is
the correct form, but forgetting the rule.

LN


--- In norse_course@yahoogroups.com, "akoddsson" <konrad_oddsson@...>
wrote:
>
> Heill Llama!
>
> --- In norse_course@yahoogroups.com, "llama_nom" <600cell@> wrote:
> >
> > We had a discussion here recently about the complications of
> saying "I like" in Icelandic [
> http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/norse_course/message/7913 ].
>
> I missed this. An interesting sidenote here about the verb 'langa':
>
> 'The verb langa has a personal construction: til slícs fagnaþar
> scylde hveR maþr langa 27r20 (Hómilíubók), 31v13, etc.' (Van Weenen,
> Icelandic Homily Book). I'm not sure if there are any parallel
> obsolete usages of 'líka', but **mér líkar hangikjöt won't work in
> Modern Icelandic. I can't explain why this is so - for some reason it
> breaks with inherited usage-tradition. Interestingly, the verb
> mirrors Modern English usage in the mainland Scandinavian languages
> (for example, eg likar hangekjot, Modern Norwegian). It could just be
> English influence, but I'm not sure. In my opinion, the contructions
> 'mér líkar vel/illa við hangikjöt/eitthvað/einhvern'
> (something/someone) are very good, classic modern usage, whatever the
> history. But if I ever run across archaic or obsolete usages
> of 'líka', I'll rememeber to post them here for discussion ;)
>
> Regards,
> Konrad
>
> > I wonder if this sentence could be amended to:
> >
> > Mér þykkir gaman at ganga á nóttum.
> >
> > Compare Ögmundar þáttr dytts: mér þykkir gaman at hafa hálflit klæði
> > "I like to wear / enjoy wearing clothes of two colours."
> >
> >
> > --- In norse_course@yahoogroups.com, "llama_nom" <600cell@> wrote:
> > >
> > > --- In norse_course@yahoogroups.com, "Stridmann" <stridmann@>
> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > > 'elska at...' Is it possible that this is a modernism?
> > > > > This is very recent usage, totally anachronistic.
> > > >
> > > > I've found such exaples:
> > > >
> > > > "...elskaði hún hann mjög..." (EYRBYGGJA SAGA)
> > > > "...Signý elskaði hann..." (HRANA SAGA HRINGS)
> > > > "Haraldur konungur elskaði mjög Íslendinga." (SNEGLU-HALLA
> ÞÁTTUR)
> > >
> > > Hi Tim,
> > >
> > > Sorry, I didn't really explain clearly enough what I meant.  The
> difference is that in each of these examples, the complement/object of
> the verb is a noun.  This is perfectly normal in Old Icelandic; most,
> though not all, of the examples I saw had an animate noun as the
> complement, as in these three examples.  The anachronism is the use of
> 'elska' with a clausal complement such as 'at ganga náttliga' to
> describe an action which the subject of the verb 'elska' "likes/loves
> to do".
> > >
> > > LN
> > >
> >
>

How about, as another alternative, 'ek hefi skemtan af náttförum'?  I
see that Arnórr Þórðarsson uses the adjective 'allnáttförull' "often
night-travelling, much given to traveling by night" in Magnúsdrápa [
http://www.hi.is/~eybjorn/ugm/kennings/magnus11.html ].  I wonder if
*náttgöngull would be understood in the same way (ek em mjök
náttförul; ek em allnáttförul; ek em mjök náttgöngul)?

LN


--- In norse_course@yahoogroups.com, "Eysteinn Bjornsson"
<eysteinn@...> wrote:
>
> --- In norse_course@yahoogroups.com, "llama_nom" <600cell@> wrote:
>
> > Mér þykkir gaman at ganga á nóttum.
>
> Or: "um nætr".
>
> Or: Nætrferðir eru mér til skaps (or: at skapi).
> Or: Nætrgöngur falla mér vel.
> Or: Gótt er um nætr at ganga.
>
> Etc. etc.
>
> Rgds,
> E.
>

> Skammkell mælti: "Vel er við orðið bóndi en hvergi varst þú
óreiðulegri á þinginu þá er þú tókst sjálfdæmið og þú hélst á atgeirinum."
> Skammkel said "It is well with words - Farmer -  (?well-spoken) but
how (?CV - Unreliable) / angry were you at Thing when you took for
yourself - self-judgement and you held onto the Halberd

'orðið' = 'orðit', supine (neuter past participle) of 'verða', rather
than 'orð' + the definite article.  Zoega 'verða við' "to respond to";
Online Icelandic Dictionary 'verða vel við e-u' "to accept something
calmly" -- which seems to be the meaning here.  MM & HP "You are
taking it calmly".  Here with an impersonal construction, lit.: "Well
is to-that responded", "that is well (i.e. calmly) responded to."
Incidentally, I'm guessing there's a bit of non-too-subtle innuendo
going on with Skammkell's constant references to Gunnarr's 'atgeirr'...

> Runólfur gaf Otkatli góðar gjafar og kvað þá eigi sjást mundu oftar.
Runolf gave Otkel good gifts and said they would not see each other
more often (or ever again ?) (was this meant to indicate a "prophetic
utterance")

Yes & yes, 'eigi ... optarr' = "never again", and I think you could be
right about it being prophetic.  When people say things in that tone
of voice in sagas, they usually come to pass (unless there's someone
even more foresighted around to contradict or qualify them).

LN

> bað hann þá muna syni sínum ef svo bæri við það er með þeim var vel.

I'm not sure about this myself.  If 'ef svo bæri við' = "if that comes
to pass" (MM & HP "if anything happened"), then does the rest refer to
what is to be done to help his son, or is it an appeal to the
friendship that exists between Runolf and Otkell?

LN

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> Þykja mér ill vera orðtök vondra manna."
> Seems to me to be evil speech of a difficult man."

pl. vondra manna "of bad men".  'vondra' = older spelling: vándra
"bad, wicked", rather than 'vandra' "difficult".  MM & HP elaborate
slightly: "I tell you this because I hate such spiteful talk."  I
wondered if this might be proverbial, if there was some saying like
"evil is the speech of wicked men" (like the circular logic of 'ekki
má feigum forða' "nothing can save a doomed man") -- but I don't see
it listed in the Proverbs Concordance.

> en það eitt skalt þú vinna héðan í frá er þú vilt.
> "but (for?) that one you shall work henceforth where you wish."

The numeral 'einn' is being used here in the sense "only", neuter to
agree with 'það': "But henceforth you shall do only such work as you
wish to."  'vinna' "to do, to perform, to work at, etc."

> sverðinu Ölvisnaut

'nautr' = "gift".  See Ch. 30: 'Ölvir hafði gefið Gunnari sverð gott.'
  Swords are often named after a former owner like this, whether the
weapon was literally a gift, given willingly, as in this case, or
taken from a defeated enemy.

> en þó lét hærra atgeirinn

See Zoega 'láta' (11) "to sound, to make a sound".

> Það mun eigi engra tíðinda vita.

Lit. "That will (most likely) not betoken no events-of-note."  I.e.
That must mean something serious is going to happen.  See Zoega 'vita'
(6).  Same verb as 'to know', but with this specialised meaning with
the genitive "to signal, betoken, bode."  MM & HP "That promises big
events."

> ríður eftir slíkt er hann mátti'

MM & HP "...as hard as he could."

> Akratungu
> Tongue Field

Or rather "Fields' Tongue", "Tongue of Fields".

LN

--- In norse_course@yahoogroups.com, "llama_nom" <600cell@...> wrote:
>
> Vertu heill Konráð!
>
> > an interesting sidenote here about the verb 'langa':
> >
> > 'The verb langa has a personal construction: til slícs fagnaþar
scylde hveR maþr langa 27r20 (Hómilíubók), 31v13, etc.' (Van Weenen,
Icelandic Homily Book).

> Could this be anything to do with the fact that there is another
verb dependent on 'skyldi' in this sentence: '...skyldi hverr maðr
langa ok of þat önn ala...'?

Perhaps Van Weenen is seeing a personal/impersonal distinction for
the verb which doesn't involve it taking other than an accusative
subject? You're certainly right about 'skyldi' here - maðr ends up
nominitive here regardless of 'langa'. The author doesn't elaborate
any further, so it's up to the reader to interpret it. 'of' for 'um'
(as in the sentence you quote above) seems to have been universal in
ON, where later we have 'um' instead; 'umb' was confined to the
sense 'around/about' (<*umbi). It would seem that the change was in
place by the 13th century, though. I point it out because it's a
detail that often seems to go more or less unnoticed.

> But searching on Google, I find Modern Icelandic examples such
as 'mig langar og ætla', so maybe that's not a factor. Or could the
example in Hómilíubók have been influenced by some Latin
usage?

I'm not sure. There seems to be a school of thought that the homily
books to some degree represent foreign syntax, but I'd be hard
pressed to cite examples myself ;) The foreign influence I see most
clearly is in the vocabulary (loanwords and new, stretched usages of
ON words, new formations/compounds, etc.). To name a few examples off
the top of my mind - miskunn, náð, kærleikr, öfund, synd etc. etc.
(words that aquire new connotations with Christianity; himinríki
(later himnaríki), helvíti, guðspiall (and guðspallaskald), etc. etc.
(new compounds), and guð (new word, previously only goð, which is
always neuter), and translations and/or adaptations of foreign
concepts/characters: djöfull, engill, andskoti (previously only in
the meaning 'opponent' - the one who shoots against), etc. etc.. The
list is very long indeed, but I think it's highly doubtful that this
had much, if anything, to say about syntax or phonology. I'll grant
that it's a tricky, complex topic, and that opinions differ. Still,
the older stage of the language represented gives us invaluable
insight into the finer details of ON during the earliest Catholic
period - the small differences in phonology, declension, etc. from
the 13th century standard we use today. Together with the runic
inscriptions, evidence from scaldic poetry, etc., it gives us the
tools we need to get the language of the last heathen period right,
at least on paper. That's invaluable for folk who are primarily
interested in the native Norse culture, because it gives us a more
accurate picture of their language.

> I don't know much about the history of it, so I don't know if
that's likely, but the religious subject matter makes me wonder.

;) I've read these books many times and I'm still wondering.

> The Old English verb 'langian' has a nominative subject when it
means "to lengthen", but has accusative when it means "to want, to
long for" just as in Icelandic.

'to lengthen' is 'lengja' in ON/Icelandic and takes a nominitive
subject, so no problems here. As OE and ON agree on accusative
for 'to long', my guess is that it's inherited.

> Þórhallur Eyþórsson has some more examples of nominative in place of
the usual accusative in Old Icelandic in: 'Dative vs. Nomination:
Changes in quirky subjects in Icelandic'.

> "...the investigation showed that the substitution of nominative for
oblique cases is attested already in Old Icelandic, affecting various
kinds of quirky subjects (or subject-like NPs), including Experiencers
(at least with dreyma `dream', gruna `suspect', langa `want', ugga
`fear' and undra `wonder'). Some examples of N[ominativbe] S[ickness]
from Old Icelandic texts are given in (7):"

> (7) a.
>
> Ein kona... dreymdi þann dróm.
> one woman-nom dreamt-3.sg that dream
> `One woman... dreamt that dream.' (Mar.: 1029)
>
> b.
>
> þóttist hann ok spurt hafa, at Orkneyíngar myndi
> seemed he also learned have that Orkneymen-nom would-3.pl
>
> lítt lánga til, at hann kæmi vestr þagat.
> little want to that he came westward thither
>
> `It also seemed to him that the men of the Orkneys would not be
> eager for him to come here to the west.' (Fms. VII:28)
>
> c.
>
> þetta undra víkingar.
> this wonder-3.pl vikings-nom
> `The vikings wondered at this.' (Fas. II:530)
> _____________________________________________

Interesting, indeed.

> But apparently, there is only one example of a dative being used in
Old Icelandic with such a verb that would normally have an accusative
"logical subject" ('honum skortir' in Grágás) -- although I gather
this has become a common (non-standard / frowned-upon) variant in
Modern Icelandic.  Regarding which, I found an curious comment here
about half-correct usages, with a mixture of accusative and dative,
such as * 'mig langar og honum líka' "I want and so does he" (!) [
http://www.ma.is/kenn/svp/pistlar/mars03.htm ] (líka = "also", not the
verb 'líka') -- due to people having being taught that 'mig langar' is
the correct form, but forgetting the rule.

;) Well, there are clearly a lot of mistakes being made, bad usage,
etc.. It seems typical enough of any language. Studying Hindi and
Bengali (which have a lot of speakers, dialects, variation, etc.) has
made me much more relaxed about sentences like **mig langar og honum
líka. Written and spoken language differ. As long as the speaker of
the above sentence can write correctly without guidance, I wouldn't
worry too much about mistakes in casual conversation. It's natural to
make mistakes, after all. As Þórhallur's examples show, it's even pre-
modern to make mistakes ;) There's a good argument to be made that a
standard, written language is perhaps the most important stabilizing
factor. When speakers of two dialects meet, they move towards the
standard. When we learn a new language, we learn the standard. When
everyone must refer to the standard, it tends to keep things like
'mig langar' in place without severely punishing the violators ;) So,
letting the conservatives guard and teach the standard is probably
not a bad idea. Viva Oxford Dictionary of the English Language and
company ;)

Konrad


> LN
>
>
> --- In norse_course@yahoogroups.com, "akoddsson" <konrad_oddsson@>
> wrote:
> >
> > Heill Llama!
> >
> > --- In norse_course@yahoogroups.com, "llama_nom" <600cell@> wrote:
> > >
> > > We had a discussion here recently about the complications of
> > saying "I like" in Icelandic [
> > http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/norse_course/message/7913 ].
> >
> > I missed this. An interesting sidenote here about the
verb 'langa':
> >
> > 'The verb langa has a personal construction: til slícs fagnaþar
> > scylde hveR maþr langa 27r20 (Hómilíubók), 31v13, etc.' (Van
Weenen,
> > Icelandic Homily Book). I'm not sure if there are any parallel
> > obsolete usages of 'líka', but **mér líkar hangikjöt won't work
in
> > Modern Icelandic. I can't explain why this is so - for some
reason it
> > breaks with inherited usage-tradition. Interestingly, the verb
> > mirrors Modern English usage in the mainland Scandinavian
languages
> > (for example, eg likar hangekjot, Modern Norwegian). It could
just be
> > English influence, but I'm not sure. In my opinion, the
contructions
> > 'mér líkar vel/illa við hangikjöt/eitthvað/einhvern'
> > (something/someone) are very good, classic modern usage, whatever
the
> > history. But if I ever run across archaic or obsolete usages
> > of 'líka', I'll rememeber to post them here for discussion ;)
> >
> > Regards,
> > Konrad
> >
> > > I wonder if this sentence could be amended to:
> > >
> > > Mér þykkir gaman at ganga á nóttum.
> > >
> > > Compare Ögmundar þáttr dytts: mér þykkir gaman at hafa hálflit
klæði
> > > "I like to wear / enjoy wearing clothes of two colours."
> > >
> > >
> > > --- In norse_course@yahoogroups.com, "llama_nom" <600cell@>
wrote:
> > > >
> > > > --- In norse_course@yahoogroups.com, "Stridmann" <stridmann@>
> > wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > > 'elska at...' Is it possible that this is a modernism?
> > > > > > This is very recent usage, totally anachronistic.
> > > > >
> > > > > I've found such exaples:
> > > > >
> > > > > "...elskaði hún hann mjög..." (EYRBYGGJA SAGA)
> > > > > "...Signý elskaði hann..." (HRANA SAGA HRINGS)
> > > > > "Haraldur konungur elskaði mjög Íslendinga." (SNEGLU-HALLA
> > ÞÁTTUR)
> > > >
> > > > Hi Tim,
> > > >
> > > > Sorry, I didn't really explain clearly enough what I meant.
The
> > difference is that in each of these examples, the
complement/object of
> > the verb is a noun.  This is perfectly normal in Old Icelandic;
most,
> > though not all, of the examples I saw had an animate noun as the
> > complement, as in these three examples.  The anachronism is the
use of
> > 'elska' with a clausal complement such as 'at ganga náttliga' to
> > describe an action which the subject of the
verb 'elska' "likes/loves
> > to do".
> > > >
> > > > LN
> > > >
> > >
> >
>

>> How about, as another alternative, 'ek hefi skemtan af náttförum'?

Sounds good, - the only problem being the ambiguity. 'Náttförum'
can also be dat pl of "náttfari" (nightwalker), so the sentence
could mean "I am amused by nightwalkers".

>> I wonder if *náttgöngull would be understood in the same way

Hmmm - I can't think of an objection, but somehow it doesn't sound
as good as "náttförull". Possibly it brings to mind "svefngengill",
and veers towards "sleep-walking" in the reader's mind? Not sure.

Cheers,
E.

Thanks for your help, LN!!
Grace

> Þykja mér ill vera orðtök vondra manna."
> Seems to me to be evil speech of a difficult man."

pl. vondra manna "of bad men". 'vondra' = older spelling: vándra
"bad, wicked", rather than 'vandra' "difficult". MM & HP elaborate
slightly: "I tell you this because I hate such spiteful talk." I
wondered if this might be proverbial, if there was some saying like
"evil is the speech of wicked men" (like the circular logic of 'ekki
má feigum forða' "nothing can save a doomed man") -- but I don't see
it listed in the Proverbs Concordance.

> en það eitt skalt þú vinna héðan í frá er þú vilt.
> "but (for?) that one you shall work henceforth where you wish."

The numeral 'einn' is being used here in the sense "only", neuter to
agree with 'það': "But henceforth you shall do only such work as you
wish to." 'vinna' "to do, to perform, to work at, etc."

> sverðinu Ölvisnaut

'nautr' = "gift". See Ch. 30: 'Ölvir hafði gefið Gunnari sverð gott.'
Swords are often named after a former owner like this, whether the
weapon was literally a gift, given willingly, as in this case, or
taken from a defeated enemy.

> en þó lét hærra atgeirinn

See Zoega 'láta' (11) "to sound, to make a sound".

> Það mun eigi engra tíðinda vita.

Lit. "That will (most likely) not betoken no events-of-note." I.e.
That must mean something serious is going to happen. See Zoega 'vita'
(6). Same verb as 'to know', but with this specialised meaning with
the genitive "to signal, betoken, bode." MM & HP "That promises big
events."

> ríður eftir slíkt er hann mátti'

MM & HP "...as hard as he could."

> Akratungu
> Tongue Field

Or rather "Fields' Tongue", "Tongue of Fields".

LN
Fred and Grace Hatton
Hawley Pa

http://www.visindavefur.hi.is/

Some of you may know this site already.  Besides the information in
the answers themselves, I've found it a useful place to practice
reading modern Icelandic, since the writing is intended to be clear,
and if you already know something about a particular topic, it makes
it easier to follow the meaning from the context even where you meet
unfamiliar words.

Well, I just noticed that they now have some answers in English too, e.g.

What was a fóstbræðralag ('foster-brotherhood') and why did people
make them?
http://www.visindavefur.hi.is/svar.asp?id=5432

Hvað er fóstbræðralag og hvers vegna sórust menn í fóstbræðralag?
http://www.visindavefur.hi.is/svar.asp?id=4515

I'm not sure if there's a simple way of finding the Icelandic version
from the English though.  That would be handy...

LN

My other discovery today was this [
http://skaldic.arts.usyd.edu.au/db.php?table=doc&id=331 ].  Some notes
by Kari Ellen Grade on the 'ljóðaháttr' metre, for the editors of the
Skaldic Poetry of the Scandinavian Middle Ages project.  In
particular, I was interested to learn that most types of Old Norse
verse, unlike Old English, don't allow 'resolution' in the second lift
-- but that this is permitted in 'ljóðaháttr', e.g. 'brestanda boga',
'sá er yfir ölðrom þrumir', where the short initial syllable of 'boga'
and 'þrumir' counts together with the following syllable as metrically
equivalent to one land syllable.

LN

Þeir hljópu þá allir af baki og sóttu að Gunnari. Hallbjörn var fremstur.

"Sæk þú eigi að," segir Gunnar. "Þér vildi eg síst illt gera en eg mun þó
engum hlífa ef eg á hendur mínar að verja."

"Það mun ekki gera," segir Hallbjörn. Þú munt þó drepa vilja bróður minn og
er það skömm ef eg sit hjá" og lagði til Gunnars tveim höndum miklu spjóti.

Gunnar skaut fyrir skildinum en Hallbjörn lagði í gegn um skjöldinn. Gunnar
skaut svo fast niður skildinum að hann stóð fastur í jörðunni en tók til
sverðsins svo skjótt að eigi mátti auga á festa og hjó með sverðinu og kom á
höndina Hallbirni fyrir ofan úlflið svo að af tók.

Skammkell hljóp á bak Gunnari og höggur til hans með mikilli öxi. Gunnar
snerist skjótt að honum og lýstur við atgeirinum og kom undir kverk öxinni
og hraut hún úr hendi honum út á Rangá. Gunnar leggur í annað sinn
atgeirinum og í gegnum Skammkel og vegur hann upp og kastar honum í
leirgötuna að höfðinu. Auðólfur austmaður þreif upp spjót og skaut að
Gunnari. Gunnar tók á lofti spjótið og skaut aftur þegar og fló í gegnum
skjöldinn og austmanninn og niður í völlinn. Otkell höggur með sverði til
Gunnars og stefnir á fótinn fyrir neðan kné. Gunnar hljóp í loft upp og
missir Otkell hans. Gunnar leggur atgeirinum til hans og í gegnum hann. Þá
kemur Kolskeggur að og hleypur þegar að Hallkatli og höggur hann banahögg
með saxinu. Þar vega þeir þá átta.

Kona hljóp heim, er sá, og sagði Merði og bað hann skilja þá.

"Þeir einir munu vera," segir hann, "að eg hirði aldrei þó að drepist."

"Eigi munt þú það vilja mæla," segir hún, "þar mun vera Gunnar frændi þinn
og Otkell vinur þinn."

"Klifar þú nokkuð jafnan mannfýla þín," segir hann og lá hann inni meðan
þeir börðust.

Gunnar reið heim og Kolskeggur eftir verk þessi og ríða þeir hart upp eftir
eyrunum og stökk Gunnar af baki og kom standandi niður.

Kolskeggur mælti: "Hart ríður þú nú frændi."

Gunnar mælti: "Það lagði Skammkell mér til orðs er eg mælti svo: "Þér ríðið
á mig ofan.""

"Hefnt hefir þú nú þess," segir Kolskeggur.

"Hvað eg veit," segir Gunnar, "hvort eg mun því óvaskari maður en aðrir menn
sem mér þykir meira fyrir en öðrum mönnum að vega menn."