I don't think that can be the right answer.  For one thing, I am 99.9%
certain that J's choice of kemiE was intentional and not an error (or a
printing error).  And if -ia is supposed to be a suffix here meaning
"country, domain etc." then "chemist" would be keme, which it is not: NL
itself gives kemiiste for that.

If there is a single mistake in NL it is fotokemia - it could be a printing
error but I doubt it.  Given where it occurs in relation to other words in
-ia it seems to me to betray a wider mistake on J's part.


Kordiale, James Chandler
idojc@...
http://www.geocities.com/idojc - IALs index
http://www.geocities.com/idojc/yindex.html - Ido index
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/idolisto - Idolisto home
http://io.wikipedia.org - Wikipedio en Ido

"We should all stay in touch, we should make a big network on both sides of
the Atlantic because your country and my country are the biggest problems in
the world today, we are the biggest rogue states in the world today and the
citizens have got to take back control of the plane." - George Galloway, MP
Interviewed on the Alex Jones Show, 31st May 2005





>From: "dimitryivanov" <dimitryivanov@...>
>Reply-To: novial-discussion@yahoogroups.com
>To: novial-discussion@yahoogroups.com
>Subject: [novial-discussion] Re: Mistake in Novial Lexike?
>Date: Wed, 07 Feb 2007 16:47:13 -0000
>
>I would rather say that J's choice of -e in kemie is a mistake.
>It is a specific domain, the same as geografia, geologia.
>
>_________
>http://lingwadeplaneta.info/en/index.shtml

_________________________________________________________________
MSN Hotmail is evolving � check out the new Windows Live Mail
http://ideas.live.com

I think it is an error to generalize the -ia suffix from the concrete
meaning of "country etc." (as in angle, Anglia) to abstract domains or
fields of study in this way.  There is another reason why I find the -ie
ending more natural: it coincides with the Eng plural:

biografies = E biographies

Medilingua will make this improvement and quite a few more..

Kordiale, James Chandler
idojc@...
http://www.geocities.com/idojc - IALs index
http://www.geocities.com/idojc/yindex.html - Ido index
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/idolisto - Idolisto home
http://io.wikipedia.org - Wikipedio en Ido

"We should all stay in touch, we should make a big network on both sides of
the Atlantic because your country and my country are the biggest problems in
the world today, we are the biggest rogue states in the world today and the
citizens have got to take back control of the plane." - George Galloway, MP
Interviewed on the Alex Jones Show, 31st May 2005





>From: "Wayne Dam" <home@...>
>Reply-To: novial-discussion@yahoogroups.com
>To: <novial-discussion@yahoogroups.com>
>Subject: RE: [SPAM] [novial-discussion] Mistake in Novial Lexike?
>Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2007 23:55:22 +0200
>
>Hi
>
>
>
>If, Nov ialist is around he could explain it to you. I had the same
>question
>around "geografia". His explanation '"Geografe" is a geographer, from which
>is derived "geografia" the "domain of geographers".'
>
>
>
>Doesn't solve you chemistry question.
>
>
>
>Hope this helps
>
>Wayne

_________________________________________________________________
MSN Hotmail is evolving � check out the new Windows Live Mail
http://ideas.live.com

Just one remark. To my view, it is rather strange to produce a word
for a field, or occupation, from the word of person occupied in this
field. The name for occupation is primary, that's common sense. There
can not be geographer if there's no geografy, no biologist if there's
no biology, etc. So I think that we don't necessarily have to be able
to produce these words (biologia, geografia, anatomia etc.) from some
others, but we should take them as they are. This is the most natural
approach, I believe.
___________
www.lingwadeplaneta.info

--- In novial-discussion@yahoogroups.com, "James Chandler" <idojc@...>
wrote:
>
> I think it is an error to generalize the -ia suffix from the concrete
> meaning of "country etc." (as in angle, Anglia) to abstract domains or
> fields of study in this way.

Well, then you have discovered another set of NL mistakes, because
there you can find filosofia, anatomia, geologia, geografia, etc.


>There is another reason why I find the -ie
> ending more natural: it coincides with the Eng plural:
>
> biografies = E biographies

Speaking about naturalness, I'd like to remark that this Latin ending
-ia is perfectly natural in the words for abstract domains or
fields of study in Spanish, Portugese, Italian, and Russian. In all
these languages it is "biografia"

Kordialim,
D.Ivanov
www.lingwadeplaneta.info

...but does one exist for English to Novial translations? Keep in mind
that this is my first post in this group. Leave me an answer before the
weekend is over. Thank you.

Not yet, I think.


From: "Dylan Constance Julien Cuffy" <pierre612004@...>
Reply-To: novial-discussion@yahoogroups.com
To: novial-discussion@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [novial-discussion] As we Novialists know, there is a
Novial-English dictionary
Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2007 00:37:55 -0000

...but does one exist for English to Novial translations? Keep in mind
that this is my first post in this group. Leave me an answer before the
weekend is over. Thank you.

_________________________________________________________________
Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today it's FREE!
http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/

A-Z.txt's definitions/translations can be searched using Notepad's 'search'
function. Keep in mind that some English and French entries don't
appear because they are so close to the Novial entry which may be
different enough in spelling that you'll have to change a C to a K,
a Z to an S or whatever. So, for example, if you want to search for the
English word "instruct", you'll need to change the 'C' to a 'K' to find it
under the Novial heading.

Any other questions, feel free to ask.

Dave


--
Freedom of the press is limited to those who own one.
    - A.J. Liebling, journalist

إن حرية الصحافة لا تتوفر إلا لمن يملك صحيفة.
اي جي ليبلينغ, صحافي

Don't you worry. I've finally found one, courtesy of the Internet Archive.

Took me a little time, but I hope it's enough for us beginners.

So long, until tomorrow.

--- In novial-discussion@yahoogroups.com, "donald gasper" <don_gasper@...> wrote:
>
> Not yet, I think.
>
>
> From: "Dylan Constance Julien Cuffy" pierre612004@...
> Reply-To: novial-discussion@yahoogroups.com
> To: novial-discussion@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [novial-discussion] As we Novialists know, there is a
> Novial-English dictionary
> Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2007 00:37:55 -0000
>
> ...but does one exist for English to Novial translations? Keep in mind
> that this is my first post in this group. Leave me an answer before the
> weekend is over. Thank you.
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today it's FREE!
> http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/
>

--- In novial-discussion@yahoogroups.com, "Dylan Constance Julien
Cuffy" <pierre612004@...> wrote:
>
>
> Don't you worry. I've finally found one
>
<http://web.archive.org/web/20020402033534/www.vision25.demon.co.uk/con
l\
> ang/eng-nov.txt> , courtesy of the Internet Archive.
>
> Took me a little time, but I hope it's enough for us beginners.
>

Based on the address, this looks like it came from Phil Hunt's old
site. Great to see that the Archive actually works, and I think this
might help others, saving some work.

--- In novial-discussion@yahoogroups.com, "Dylan Constance Julien
Cuffy" <pierre612004@...> wrote:
>
> Some of us may be already aware that there has been a substantial
deal
> of media in another constructed language, Esperanto.
>
> But, apart from Jespersen's works, a newly-created Wikipedia
> <http://nov.wikipedia.org> , and some dictionaries, has there been
> anything else written in the Novial language? Moreover, has there
been
> any Novial media so far (TV, movies, radio, and the sort)?
>
> If anyone knows, I'll appreciate an answer by week's end.
>
I think you have to realize that for many years Novial was
essentially defunct. Jespersen died in 1943, and nobody took up the
cudgels. It's only since the 1990s that there's been something of a
revival of interest in Novial, so we have a long way to go before
Novial gets the kind of media exposure that Esperanto has.

I don't know if anyone ever answered your question, but the Novial Lexike
gives the adjective forms as "ori" (made of gold) and "oratri" (golden,
goldlike).

However, you are correct that "orali" theoretically exists with the meaning
"pertaining to gold."

Don




From: "steveb_667" <sbartok1632@...>
Reply-To: novial-discussion@yahoogroups.com
To: novial-discussion@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [novial-discussion] Still Learning Novial - Newbie Question
Date: Wed, 11 Oct 2006 01:37:25 -0000

I have seen that the word for "gold" in Novial is "ore." To turn this
noun into an adjective ('golden'), the suffix -al(i) would be placed
onto it, dropping the -e to form "orali" (or 'oral').

Would this be correct or am I missing something?

Thank you.

_________________________________________________________________
Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today it's FREE!
http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/

Don't forget about -AR(I), Don. Which brings up the question of how
these two (-AL and -AR) differ in meaning. Here're the definitions
from a list on the Wiki:

-ARI (I -ario, F -aire, etc.) agreeing with or fit for: reglari
regular, from regle rule, populari, revolutionari, elementari,
ordinari, imaginari (thus Occ).

-AL (ALI) is the most general of these suffixes; it is well known from
a great many Latin or Romanic adjectives that have penetrated into
most civilized languages and which are used in Novial as regularly
formed adjectives: natural, universal, national, verbal, kordial (from
kordie heart), material, formal, traditional etc. Before -al the
ending of the substantive disappears (cf. also bestie bestial), except
only u: from sexu we form sexual, thus also manual and others. We
extend this formation to all words, even if there is no adjective with
this ending in national languages: gasal relating to gas, patral
paternal, populal relating to people, homal human, i.e. concerning man
(different from human humane) - on homonal and homanal see above (p.
93).

And I'll add -ATRI, too, since we're discussing that one, as well:

-ATRI (from F I) similar in appearance or character, often corresponds
to the E ending -ish: blankatri whitish, bluatri, metalatri metallike,
parodiatri, etc.

On the subject of -AR vs. -AL, I have often thought it'd be nice to
have SOLARI and LUNARI in Novial. But there are two problems with
that. First, the Novial root for 'sun' is the misguided 'SUN-' and,
second, -AL seems more appropriate than -AR in terms of meaning.
Although, on second thought, I'm not sure that -AR's "agreeing with or
fit for" really differs significantly from what an adjective derived
from a noun or other part of speech really is. (I can see how it
would, but a few contrasting examples would be helpful.)

For -AL, NL gives the following examples: "gasal relating to gas,
patral paternal, populal relating to people, homal human" as examples
of the -AL suffix. Then, for -AR, it gives "reglari regular, from
regle rule, populari, revolutionari, elementari, ordinari, imaginari".

So the root POPUL is the one word that can be used as a contrasting
example. Anyone care to suggest how one could benefit from a
distinction between POPULALI and POPULARI? Some examples in sentences
would be useful.

I'd love to know how one could distinguish between LUNALI and LUNARI,
for exmaple. WHich would be appropriate for the English "lunar
eclipse"? LUNALI, I presume. So could someone come up with a sentence
where LUNARI is more appropriate?

Sorry I haven't been around much lately, by the way. Although there's
not much activity from others lately, either, I notice. I do keep up
with the new-member joining requests pretty well, but it's hard for me
to devote much time otherwise. Too much other stuff going on.
Including, by the way, an Esperanto-language musical project if that
interests anyone.

Dave

On 28 Feb 2007 16:03:13 -0000, novial-discussion@yahoogroups.com
<novial-discussion@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
>
>
>         novial-discussion
>
> Messages In This Digest      (1                Message)
>
>
> 1.
>    Re: Still Learning Novial - Newbie Question   From:        donald gasper
>     View All Topics | Create New Topic
>              Message
>
>
> 1.
>
>            Re: Still Learning Novial - Newbie Question
>  Posted by:      "donald gasper"             don_gasper@...
>                                 d_gasper
>         Tue Feb 27, 2007 6:44 pm        (PST)
>               I don't know if anyone ever answered your question, but the
> Novial Lexike
>  gives the adjective forms as "ori" (made of gold) and "oratri" (golden,
>  goldlike).
>
>  However, you are correct that "orali" theoretically exists with the meaning
>  "pertaining to gold."
>
>  Don
>
>  From: "steveb_667" <sbartok1632@...>
>  Reply-To: novial-discussion@yahoogroups.com
>  To: novial-discussion@yahoogroups.com
>  Subject: [novial-discussion] Still Learning Novial - Newbie Question
>  Date: Wed, 11 Oct 2006 01:37:25 -0000
>
>  I have seen that the word for "gold" in Novial is "ore." To turn this
>  noun into an adjective ('golden'), the suffix -al(i) would be placed
>  onto it, dropping the -e to form "orali" (or 'oral').
>
>  Would this be correct or am I missing something?
>
>  Thank you.
>
>  __________________________________________________________
>  Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today it's FREE!
>  http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/
>
>
>
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--
Freedom of the press is limited to those who own one.
    - A.J. Liebling, journalist

إن حرية الصحافة لا تتوفر إلا لمن يملك صحيفة.
اي جي ليبلينغ, صحافي

Kar Novialistes

I have modified the AIL page which contains specimen texts in Novial.  The
previous version did not include text II, Stranji Sonjo by OJ, instead it
linked to the text at Ken Caviness's site.  This link is now dead, so I have
typed text II directly into the page, so the texts are now all togther in
one place.  If you have copied this page to other web locations (eg.
wikibooks) you may want to refresh the copy:

http://www.geocities.com/idojc/AILtexts.html

Kordialmente

Kordiale, James Chandler
idojc@...
http://www.geocities.com/idojc - IALs index
http://www.geocities.com/idojc/yindex.html - Ido index
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/idolisto - Idolisto home
http://io.wikipedia.org - Wikipedio en Ido

"We should all stay in touch, we should make a big network on both sides of
the Atlantic because your country and my country are the biggest problems in
the world today, we are the biggest rogue states in the world today and the
citizens have got to take back control of the plane." - George Galloway, MP
Interviewed on the Alex Jones Show, 31st May 2005

_________________________________________________________________
Upload 500 photos a month & blog with your Messenger buddies on Windows Live
Spaces. Get yours now, FREE! http://specials.uk.msn.com/spaces/default.aspx

Deiv (Dave):

Pri vun question pri ki-man -AR(I) diferar se fro -AL(I) me vol diktar
ke li unesmi forsan deskriptar kelkum intentat bli usar rilat kelkum.
Exemplim, LUNARI por deskriptar li "lunar rover" (veturu konstruktat
por voyajar sur li lunu durant li frui jar del spas-program) e LUNALI
por deskriptar kelkums non "agreeing with" or "fit for" ex. lunar
eclipse, lunar surface, lunar weather, dust, etc.

Me voled anke parentesim pri SOL- diktar ke anke me preferar tum ye
SUN-, mo li problem es ke SOL- signifikar "alone, sole". Dunke, me non
kredar ke nus povud fasilim chanjar lum.

Heri (Harry)

On 1 Mar 2007 18:05:19 -0000, novial-discussion@yahoogroups.com
<novial-discussion@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
>
>
>         novial-discussion
>
> Messages In This Digest      (1                Message)
>
>
> 1.
>    -ATRI vs. -AL(I) vs. -AR(I)   From:        Dabug Xappuc
>     View All Topics | Create New Topic
>              Message
>
>
> 1.
>
>            -ATRI vs. -AL(I) vs. -AR(I)
>  Posted by:      "Dabug Xappuc"             novialist@...
>                             forgetfuljones.geo
>         Wed Feb 28, 2007 9:38 am        (PST)
>               Don't forget about -AR(I), Don. Which brings up the question
> of how
>  these two (-AL and -AR) differ in meaning. Here're the definitions
>  from a list on the Wiki:
>
>  -ARI (I -ario, F -aire, etc.) agreeing with or fit for: reglari
>  regular, from regle rule, populari, revolutionari, elementari,
>  ordinari, imaginari (thus Occ).
>
>  -AL (ALI) is the most general of these suffixes; it is well known from
>  a great many Latin or Romanic adjectives that have penetrated into
>  most civilized languages and which are used in Novial as regularly
>  formed adjectives: natural, universal, national, verbal, kordial (from
>  kordie heart), material, formal, traditional etc. Before -al the
>  ending of the substantive disappears (cf. also bestie bestial), except
>  only u: from sexu we form sexual, thus also manual and others. We
>  extend this formation to all words, even if there is no adjective with
>  this ending in national languages: gasal relating to gas, patral
>  paternal, populal relating to people, homal human, i.e. concerning man
>  (different from human humane) - on homonal and homanal see above (p.
>  93).
>
>  And I'll add -ATRI, too, since we're discussing that one, as well:
>
>  -ATRI (from F I) similar in appearance or character, often corresponds
>  to the E ending -ish: blankatri whitish, bluatri, metalatri metallike,
>  parodiatri, etc.
>
>  On the subject of -AR vs. -AL, I have often thought it'd be nice to
>  have SOLARI and LUNARI in Novial. But there are two problems with
>  that. First, the Novial root for 'sun' is the misguided 'SUN-' and,
>  second, -AL seems more appropriate than -AR in terms of meaning.
>  Although, on second thought, I'm not sure that -AR's "agreeing with or
>  fit for" really differs significantly from what an adjective derived
>  from a noun or other part of speech really is. (I can see how it
>  would, but a few contrasting examples would be helpful.)
>
>  For -AL, NL gives the following examples: "gasal relating to gas,
>  patral paternal, populal relating to people, homal human" as examples
>  of the -AL suffix. Then, for -AR, it gives "reglari regular, from
>  regle rule, populari, revolutionari, elementari, ordinari, imaginari".
>
>  So the root POPUL is the one word that can be used as a contrasting
>  example. Anyone care to suggest how one could benefit from a
>  distinction between POPULALI and POPULARI? Some examples in sentences
>  would be useful.
>
>  I'd love to know how one could distinguish between LUNALI and LUNARI,
>  for exmaple. WHich would be appropriate for the English "lunar
>  eclipse"? LUNALI, I presume. So could someone come up with a sentence
>  where LUNARI is more appropriate?
>
>  Sorry I haven't been around much lately, by the way. Although there's
>  not much activity from others lately, either, I notice. I do keep up
>  with the new-member joining requests pretty well, but it's hard for me
>  to devote much time otherwise. Too much other stuff going on.
>  Including, by the way, an Esperanto-language musical project if that
>  interests anyone.
>
>  Dave
>
>  On 28 Feb 2007 16:03:13 -0000, novial-discussion@yahoogroups.com
>  <novial-discussion@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
>  >
>  >
>  >         novial-discussion
>  >
>  > Messages In This Digest      (1                Message)
>  >
>  >
>  > 1.
>  >    Re: Still Learning Novial - Newbie Question   From:        donald
> gasper
>  >     View All Topics | Create New Topic
>  >              Message
>  >
>  >
>  > 1.
>  >
>  >            Re: Still Learning Novial - Newbie Question
>  >  Posted by:      "donald gasper"             don_gasper@...
>  >                                 d_gasper
>  >         Tue Feb 27, 2007 6:44 pm        (PST)
>  >               I don't know if anyone ever answered your question, but the
>  > Novial Lexike
>  >  gives the adjective forms as "ori" (made of gold) and "oratri" (golden,
>  >  goldlike).
>  >
>  >  However, you are correct that "orali" theoretically exists with the
> meaning
>  >  "pertaining to gold."
>  >
>  >  Don
>  >
>  >  From: "steveb_667" <sbartok1632@...>
>  >  Reply-To: novial-discussion@yahoogroups.com
>  >  To: novial-discussion@yahoogroups.com
>  >  Subject: [novial-discussion] Still Learning Novial - Newbie Question
>  >  Date: Wed, 11 Oct 2006 01:37:25 -0000
>  >
>  >  I have seen that the word for "gold" in Novial is "ore." To turn this
>  >  noun into an adjective ('golden'), the suffix -al(i) would be placed
>  >  onto it, dropping the -e to form "orali" (or 'oral').
>  >
>  >  Would this be correct or am I missing something?
>  >
>  >  Thank you.
>  >
>  >  __________________________________________________________
>  >  Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today it's FREE!
>  >  http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/
>  >
>  >
>  >
>  >             Back to top
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>  --
>  Freedom of the press is limited to those who own one.
>     - A.J. Liebling, journalist
>
>  إن حرية الصحافة لا تتوفر إلا لمن يملك
صحيفة. اي جي ليبلينغ, صحافي
>
>
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--
//|/\/\\][[|\//[|\/\\/\\|]|\
Mentir es fasili, mo mentir nur uni-foy es multim desfasil.
//|/\//\\\][[|\//[|\/\\/\\|]

Segun me on povud admise ambi formes kom alternatives kun li sami
signifikatione.

E personalim me vud prefera "aure" insted "ore" por li metale. Li simbole
kemiali internationali es "Au".

Don

From: "Harold Davis" <eastwestunrest@...>
Reply-To: novial-discussion@yahoogroups.com
To: novial-discussion@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [novial-discussion] Digest Number 244
Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2007 23:28:32 -0500

Deiv (Dave):

Pri vun question pri ki-man -AR(I) diferar se fro -AL(I) me vol diktar
ke li unesmi forsan deskriptar kelkum intentat bli usar rilat kelkum.
Exemplim, LUNARI por deskriptar li "lunar rover" (veturu konstruktat
por voyajar sur li lunu durant li frui jar del spas-program) e LUNALI
por deskriptar kelkums non "agreeing with" or "fit for" ex. lunar
eclipse, lunar surface, lunar weather, dust, etc.

Me voled anke parentesim pri SOL- diktar ke anke me preferar tum ye
SUN-, mo li problem es ke SOL- signifikar "alone, sole". Dunke, me non
kredar ke nus povud fasilim chanjar lum.

Heri (Harry)

On 1 Mar 2007 18:05:19 -0000, novial-discussion@yahoogroups.com
<novial-discussion@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
  >
  >
  >         novial-discussion
  >
  > Messages In This Digest      (1                Message)
  >
  >
  > 1.
  >    -ATRI vs. -AL(I) vs. -AR(I)   From:        Dabug Xappuc
  >     View All Topics | Create New Topic
  >              Message
  >
  >
  > 1.
  >
  >            -ATRI vs. -AL(I) vs. -AR(I)
  >  Posted by:      "Dabug Xappuc"             novialist@...
  >                             forgetfuljones.geo
  >         Wed Feb 28, 2007 9:38 am        (PST)
  >               Don't forget about -AR(I), Don. Which brings up the
question
  > of how
  >  these two (-AL and -AR) differ in meaning. Here're the definitions
  >  from a list on the Wiki:
  >
  >  -ARI (I -ario, F -aire, etc.) agreeing with or fit for: reglari
  >  regular, from regle rule, populari, revolutionari, elementari,
  >  ordinari, imaginari (thus Occ).
  >
  >  -AL (ALI) is the most general of these suffixes; it is well known from
  >  a great many Latin or Romanic adjectives that have penetrated into
  >  most civilized languages and which are used in Novial as regularly
  >  formed adjectives: natural, universal, national, verbal, kordial (from
  >  kordie heart), material, formal, traditional etc. Before -al the
  >  ending of the substantive disappears (cf. also bestie bestial), except
  >  only u: from sexu we form sexual, thus also manual and others. We
  >  extend this formation to all words, even if there is no adjective with
  >  this ending in national languages: gasal relating to gas, patral
  >  paternal, populal relating to people, homal human, i.e. concerning man
  >  (different from human humane) - on homonal and homanal see above (p.
  >  93).
  >
  >  And I'll add -ATRI, too, since we're discussing that one, as well:
  >
  >  -ATRI (from F I) similar in appearance or character, often corresponds
  >  to the E ending -ish: blankatri whitish, bluatri, metalatri metallike,
  >  parodiatri, etc.
  >
  >  On the subject of -AR vs. -AL, I have often thought it'd be nice to
  >  have SOLARI and LUNARI in Novial. But there are two problems with
  >  that. First, the Novial root for 'sun' is the misguided 'SUN-' and,
  >  second, -AL seems more appropriate than -AR in terms of meaning.
  >  Although, on second thought, I'm not sure that -AR's "agreeing with or
  >  fit for" really differs significantly from what an adjective derived
  >  from a noun or other part of speech really is. (I can see how it
  >  would, but a few contrasting examples would be helpful.)
  >
  >  For -AL, NL gives the following examples: "gasal relating to gas,
  >  patral paternal, populal relating to people, homal human" as examples
  >  of the -AL suffix. Then, for -AR, it gives "reglari regular, from
  >  regle rule, populari, revolutionari, elementari, ordinari, imaginari".
  >
  >  So the root POPUL is the one word that can be used as a contrasting
  >  example. Anyone care to suggest how one could benefit from a
  >  distinction between POPULALI and POPULARI? Some examples in sentences
  >  would be useful.
  >
  >  I'd love to know how one could distinguish between LUNALI and LUNARI,
  >  for exmaple. WHich would be appropriate for the English "lunar
  >  eclipse"? LUNALI, I presume. So could someone come up with a sentence
  >  where LUNARI is more appropriate?
  >
  >  Sorry I haven't been around much lately, by the way. Although there's
  >  not much activity from others lately, either, I notice. I do keep up
  >  with the new-member joining requests pretty well, but it's hard for me
  >  to devote much time otherwise. Too much other stuff going on.
  >  Including, by the way, an Esperanto-language musical project if that
  >  interests anyone.
  >
  >  Dave
  >
  >  On 28 Feb 2007 16:03:13 -0000, novial-discussion@yahoogroups.com
  >  <novial-discussion@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
  >  >
  >  >
  >  >         novial-discussion
  >  >
  >  > Messages In This Digest      (1                Message)
  >  >
  >  >
  >  > 1.
  >  >    Re: Still Learning Novial - Newbie Question   From:        donald
  > gasper
  >  >     View All Topics | Create New Topic
  >  >              Message
  >  >
  >  >
  >  > 1.
  >  >
  >  >            Re: Still Learning Novial - Newbie Question
  >  >  Posted by:      "donald gasper"             don_gasper@...
  >  >                                 d_gasper
  >  >         Tue Feb 27, 2007 6:44 pm        (PST)
  >  >               I don't know if anyone ever answered your question, but
the
  >  > Novial Lexike
  >  >  gives the adjective forms as "ori" (made of gold) and "oratri"
(golden,
  >  >  goldlike).
  >  >
  >  >  However, you are correct that "orali" theoretically exists with the
  > meaning
  >  >  "pertaining to gold."
  >  >
  >  >  Don
  >  >
  >  >  From: "steveb_667" <sbartok1632@...>
  >  >  Reply-To: novial-discussion@yahoogroups.com
  >  >  To: novial-discussion@yahoogroups.com
  >  >  Subject: [novial-discussion] Still Learning Novial - Newbie Question
  >  >  Date: Wed, 11 Oct 2006 01:37:25 -0000
  >  >
  >  >  I have seen that the word for "gold" in Novial is "ore." To turn this
  >  >  noun into an adjective ('golden'), the suffix -al(i) would be placed
  >  >  onto it, dropping the -e to form "orali" (or 'oral').
  >  >
  >  >  Would this be correct or am I missing something?
  >  >
  >  >  Thank you.
  >  >
  >

_________________________________________________________________
Don't just search. Find. Check out the new MSN Search!
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Salut, Harry, Don e altres! Me ha responda subu in li text:

--- In novial-discussion@yahoogroups.com, "donald gasper"
<don_gasper@...> wrote:
> Segun me on povud admise ambi formes kom alternatives kun li sami
> signifikatione.

Tre boni ide, Don. Me konkorda.

> E personalim me vud prefera "aure" insted "ore" por li metale. Li
simbole
> kemiali internationali es "Au".

Me konkorda ye disum (hum) anke. Tum vud solu li problem ye "oral".


> From: "Harold Davis" <eastwestunrest@...>
> Me voled anke parentesim pri SOL- diktar ke anke me preferar tum ye
> SUN-, mo li problem es ke SOL- signifikar "alone, sole". Dunke, me
non
> kredar ke nus povud fasilim chanjar lum.

Salut, Harry. Franses diktar "SEUL", e me kreda ke li radik "SUL-"
ekzista rumanezim. Dunke, oni povud usa SOL- por signifikar 'sun' e
SUL- por signifikar 'alone'/'solitary'. Por 'lonely' oni forsan
povud usa SULOSI o altrum. (SULATRI, SULOIDI, SULEGI)

Dave

--- In novial-discussion@yahoogroups.com, "donald gasper"
<don_gasper@...> wrote:
>
> [...]
>
> E personalim me vud prefera "aure" insted "ore" por li metale. Li
simbole
> kemiali internationali es "Au".

This in fact would be quite contrary to Jespersen's word selection
process. "Aure" would be based on Latin, of course, but Jespersen
preferred using forms based on modern non-scholarly language, and with
F "or" and S "oro" his choice of "ore" was pretty obvious (unless he
would pick "golde" -- frequently he went with the DE forms when they
differed from the FS forms!)

Kar amikes

This is to let you know about a new Novial reform.  This new language is
called Medilingua.
You can find out more details about the grammar and vocabulary changes, and
also view sample texts in Medilingua at the following link:

http://www.geocities.com/idojc/medilingua.html


Kordiale, James Chandler
idojc@...
http://www.geocities.com/idojc - IALs index

"We should all stay in touch, we should make a big network on both sides of
the Atlantic because your country and my country are the biggest problems in
the world today, we are the biggest rogue states in the world today and the
citizens have got to take back control of the plane." - George Galloway, MP
Interviewed on the Alex Jones Show, 31st May 2005

_________________________________________________________________
Get Hotmail, News, Sport and Entertainment from MSN on your mobile.
http://www.msn.txt4content.com/

Hello everybody!
I didn't see in Jespersen's book anything about the rules for proper
names. One the one hand there are Fransia, Anglia etc., on the other
hand China... Can anyone help?

--- In novial-discussion@yahoogroups.com, "dimitryivanov"
<dimitryivanov@...> wrote:
>
> Hello everybody!
> I didn't see in Jespersen's book anything about the rules for proper
> names. One the one hand there are Fransia, Anglia etc., on the other
> hand China... Can anyone help?
>

Obviously there are no universal rules. One of the few things that I
think Jespersen did wrong is that he wasn't always totally consistent.
We've discussed, for example, chemical elements. One thing I would do
in a Novial update would be to adopt rules that would be universally
applicable. Jespersen didn't do that, however.

To my mind, 'es lektanti' is better in terms of economy, but 'sta' is
better in terms of construction: you just add a particle and leave the
verb as it is. It seems to me that Prof.Jepersen liked uninflected
verbs. It is also easier for speakers of Asian languages.

________
Dmitry Ivanov
http://lingwadeplaneta.info/en/index.shtml

Good point. But by the same token one might just as
well consider using the verb _es_ "to be" with the
basic form, e.g. _le es lekte(r)_ "(s)he is reading".
That would alleviate the burden of using synthetic,
i.e. inflected forms (the way the constructions _le
bli lekter_ and _le ha lekter_ do), while respecting
the principle of linguistic economy at the same time,
inasmuch as no new forms would be introduced unless
they prove to be absolutely necessary.
In the final analysis, many languages manage to
survive quite well without a form (auxiliary verb,
etc.) used specifically and exclusively for the
purpose of expressing the progressive aspect --
English, Welsh and Hebrew, to mention but a few. As
for a construction such as _le es lekte_, to my mind
it would be untenable if and only if it would give
rise to intolerable ambiguity. Would that be the case
in Novial?

Cheers,
Renaud


--- dimitryivanov <dimitryivanov@...> wrote:

> To my mind, 'es lektanti' is better in terms of
> economy, but 'sta' is
> better in terms of construction: you just add a
> particle and leave the
> verb as it is. It seems to me that Prof.Jepersen
> liked uninflected
> verbs. It is also easier for speakers of Asian
> languages.

Welcome to the list, Renaud! Glad to have you.

With reference to the discussion about 'sta' and other such
modifications, my experience tells me that, while many are willing
to discuss possible alterations to Novial, few ever end up going
along with such changes once they become seriously considered. I'm
not sure if it's out of deference to Jespersen or just out of an
overly conservative mindset. And who am I (or anyone else, for that
matter) to say what constitutes an "overly conservative" mindset,
anyway?

What I mean by all this is that I don't think anyone's ever gonna
agree enough on the various changes individual members would like to
see that any of the proposals will ever end up being adopted.

The end result is that we seem to have ended up with two competing
yet reasonably compatible standards, Novial 30 and Novial 98. I
myself consider the latter an improvement on the original, but I
realize I'm outnumbered. Also, it is incomplete and, at this point,
may never be completed.

In the song lyrics I have been writing of late (which will start to
appear in the Files folder soon along with MP3 files of demo
recordings), I have adopted certain features which I like, not all
of which were approved by the N98 committee way back when. But my
feeling is that certain things aren't ever gonna be ironed out
except through usage. And there's not much usage going on outside of
my songwriting as far as I can tell. (Well, there are the Wikipedia
articles, of course. I shouldn't forget about those. Also, I and one
or two others used to make a conscientious effort to use Novial on
this list, but at some point we fell out of the habit, which is
unfortunate.)

Of course, there are those who prefer a third variant, Orthographic
Novial as proposed by Jespersen late in the history of the
development of Novial. I don't have much use for ON myself. I don't
mind a situation where one character might have variant
pronunciations or even where more than one character might be used
to spell the same phoneme, but I just can't accept a character whose
pronunciation changes according to surrounding characters. That
overly complicates an IAL in my opinion, and I can't see any
compelling reason for such a complication.

If you want to argue that it's more natural, then I will respond
that "me" as a nominative form in Novial is pretty weird, too. One
could argue that it sounds too much like foreigner talk and should,
perhaps, be replaced by something more natural like, say, "yo"
or "io" or "jo" or whatever other weird form you could come up with.
But once you've introduced pronouns that change according to case,
you might as well throw out the IAL altogether and just adopt
Spanish or Italian because you've given up the simplicity and ease
of learning that an IAL provides. I mean, after all, why not verbs
that conjugate according to person and number? And where do we stop
with such thinking?

Anyway, I throw all this out just to get people thinking. Feel free
to respond as you see fit.

Dave

Hello Dave,

Thank you for your welcoming words and for your
extensive reaction!

> With reference to the discussion about 'sta' and
other such
> modifications, my experience tells me that, while
many are willing
> to discuss possible alterations to Novial, few ever
end up going
> along with such changes once they become seriously
considered.
> I'm not sure if it's out of deference to Jespersen
or just out of an
> overly conservative mindset.

Interesting remark. I believe it straight away.
Jespersen's work is a piece of art, and many may be
rather reluctant to see it altered without being sure
that these modifications are *absolutely* necessary.
Already in the 30s many got involved with Novial,
raising questions and making suggestions as to how it
might be improved or further developed. Valter
Ahlstedt stands out among these. But one way or
another Jespersen kept an eye on those later
developments, welcoming some of them and being
sceptical about others.
I think that this may be one of the roots of the
problem you mention. While Jespersen, Ahlstedt and
others were still alive, the developments within
Novial were somehow "monitored" by those who were
either its rightful "owner" (Jesperson) or its
dedicated developers (Ahlstedt and others). Nowadays,
unlike at least a few other IALs (such as Esperanto,
Interlingua and Ido), for Novial there is no
authoritative body to promote the use of the language
and to supervise its development. The keyword here is
"authoritative": since the 30s many have come up
indeed with proposals that deserve to be carefully
looked into. But at the bottom of the line there is no
one
(1) to give an authoritative opinion on these
proposals, i.e. to provide some kind of yardstick, by
which new developments could be assessed, carefully
weighed, and finally integrated into the body of
Novial or dismissed as inadequate or in need of
revision, and
(2) who has the authority to have those developments
implemented by the whole Novial community.
In other words, what we miss is some kind of "Academy
of Novial". On the other hand, I'm also aware that
such an Academy would be no guaranty whatsoever that
the evolution of Novial would unfold smoothly and
unanimously: the history of the Interlanguage Movement
has shown the contrary more often than not.

> But my feeling is that certain things aren't ever
gonna be ironed out
> except through usage.
> And there's not much usage going on outside of my
songwriting as
> far as I can tell.

That's the point. Only the regular use of an IAL,
ideally by more than just half a dozen of enthusiasts,
can show its strengths and weaknesses over time.
Unfortunately there is not much we can do about it, is
there?

> �
> That overly complicates an IAL in my opinion, and I
can't see any
> compelling reason for such a complication.
> �
> But once you've introduced pronouns that change
according to case,
> you might as well throw out the IAL altogether and
just adopt
> Spanish or Italian because you've given up the
simplicity and ease
> of learning that an IAL provides.

I fully agree.
Nonetheless, Novial, even in its early version (i.e.
N28 and N30) was not devoid of complications either,
the real utility of which is arguable. In the end,
that Novial � or any other IAL for that matter �
should contain linguistic elements that seem
challenging at first sight is not a problem as long as
their existence proves justified.
Another complicating factor is that, ingenious though
Jespersen's creation was, linguistic thinking has
considerably evolved in the 80 years that followed the
publication of _An International Language_. This means
that today various aspects of Jespersen's creation
might be accounted for in radically different (and,
importantly, more simple) ways. Obviously, a boundary
has to be set here too, otherwise we would end up
creating an entirely different language rather than
furthering the development of Novial. On the other
hand, modern linguistic theory has to be duly
considered if Novial is to be taken seriously at all.

In any event, if that is okay for you, I'll go on
writing about some ideas of mine on Novial, time
permitting of course. Perhaps if we all start again
thinking about it this may contribute to foster a
renewed interest in what is, in the final analysis, a
most astounding language.
Time will show...

Best wishes,
Renaud

Hello Andrew,

>Hello Renaud,
>The page you refer to doesn't seem to exist yet?

Actually it *does* exist. But you're quite correct:
yesterday I got it back offline: there are already a
few things I wish to update in my assessment of the
neuter in Novial ;-)
Since nobody on the list reacted to my initial post, I
didn't bother to let everyone know they would have to
be a bit patient... But I'm certainly delighted to see
that there is some interest: the Novial community is a
small world, after all.

In any case, I hope to put the text back online soon;
I'll make sure to let you know. At this point, though,
I have already posted my initial intervention (of 3
weeks ago) about the auxiliary sta, which,
incidentally, I have also updated a bit. You can check
it out at:

http://novialingue.googlepages.com/

Kind regards,
Renaud

Great start on your web pages, Renaud! I, too, tried to read your
article on neuter but was unable to find it.  Please let us know when
it is reposted.