hey kenny its kevin my phone is turned back on gimme a call sometime


--- In nsap@yahoogroups.com, kman_0 <no_reply@y...> wrote:
>
> I was only kidding about the advertisement thing; it was just that
I
> found your last line "Maybe Even You!" hilarious

All right I have figured it out. All my life I have been tiring to
find out what I am the best at and I have found that I am a
facilitator. So why can't this group be one also. What I mean is,
that all though I myself don't have everything to offer, I can help
others come together and make something great, so as it says in the
group description, I want this group to be a meeting place. So as
my "loyal" members I want to ask you to get more people that you know
to join this group, the more individuals we have the more
possibilities.

I was only kidding about the advertisement thing; it was just that I
found your last line "Maybe Even You!" hilarious

It was never my intention to advertise,( we have nothing to gain from it ), but
you asked who was going & I merely pointed at the people who are making the
effort.




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Back in the 80s, I took a Rorshach Ink Blot test, by choice, in fact I had to
pressure the Psychologist to administer the test.
It was a very introspective time in my life. They said I scored in the middle of
every scale, Idealistic /Cynical, I was in the middle.......... Optomistic/
Pessamistic, I was in the middle...................Passive / Agressive, I was in
the middle............ But Groundhog, I don't need a test to determine that you
are a very very cyinical fellow. You say the first few generations of humans
space colonists will live in terribly cramped conditions , 3 generations is
about 60 to 90 years............ I say the first Onniel cylinder for 1000
permanent residents will be built within 15 years. Why do our respective
estimates differ so widely ???? Simply this, you have not factored in the solar
powered robotic labor force, that will first reproduce in great numbers, & 2nd ,
be working 24 / 7 / 365 on the Ceres habitat, which admitedly will be cramped,
but only ever for a dozen pioneers, then the first modest Toroid or wheel like
colony for 100 pioneers, & next the first colony on the scale
  of Onniel's visions for over a 1000. We have the technology today , to do this,
the only threats to the concept are cynics & politics. At the turn of the last
century, there were people around that seriously & cynically stated, that if a
man ever traveled faster than 100 mph, his eyes would literally boil in the
sockets, Others said that if man were to ever fly in an aircraft, the ever
present fear of falling would drive him irreperably insane. Groundhog is free to
follow these cynics into history................ I will follow Fred Marriot &
the Wright Bros. the Wrights flew for FOUR years before the 1st newspaper even
turned out to get the story straight, It always happens faster than you might
think. Always faster than the cynics predict, often even faster than those who
are working on the achievement themselves predict.
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When I originally started this group i was young and neive and had
ridiculus hopes for it, and over the years I basicly lost interest,
so what still exist before is a group without a purpose, except of
course the occasonal disscussion. So I guess what I am asking is for
ideas, because I've lost hope for my own. This group isnt just mine
so i open it up anyone who wishes to improve apon what I've started.

I came across this one day and found it interesting, you should have
a look...

Subject:      Dumb Wannabe Colonists
From:         GroundHog <Standing@...>
Date:         1997/02/13
Message-Id:   <33034984.4413@...>
Newsgroups:   sci.space.policy

Lots of crock on this newsgroups from wannabe space colonists about
how mankind in general, and Americans in particular, must go out into
space and multiply.
Dumbasses. I have been around the world, and your average American is
anything but a pioneer. The US citizen in a third world country:
complains about the food; drinks only bottled water; can't stand the
weather; won't learn the local languages; can't stand the locals;
despises anything not blessed by the touch of mom'n'apple pie;pines
away if he can't follow Oprah or the Superbowl on satellite TV.
The pioneering type ?!!!
Forgawssakes, what do you imagine life on a space colony to be like,
Star Trek? With holodecks, huge open spaces, pleasantly designed
decors? Get a brain. The first few generations in space will live a
hard, dangerous, confined life under conditions that will make
Alcatraz seem like a spa resort. Big, rolling hills in O'Neill
cylinders? Don't get fooled by the ads. They will come, but the first
couple of space-borne generations will have to build 'em.
What kind of American, or indeed Westerner, would give up a life on
humdrum ol' Earth to live the rest of his life in cramped, uncertain,
unpleasant conditions ?
'Cos believe you me, the romance of pioneering in space will wear off
real quick once the public realises there are no holodecks, or green
bountiful parks in moon domes, or exciting battles with fierce alien
invaders, just 10 cubic meters of cramped quarters, recycling your
own
urine, living in your own sweat, facing the dangers of decompression
daily, seeing the same goddamn faces every day,knowing that down
below
on Earth people are laughing, and loving, breathing fresh air and
running in spring sunshine,meeting people and living life.

Who would want to colonise space under such conditions?

That's right: the people we all love to hate and despise:
The poor from the Third World.
Sure you don't see them in Star Trek. Sure the crew of the Enterprise
is white, male and of American origin. (Noticed how every time the
Enterprise goes back in time, it goes back to the American past?)
But WASPs are not the people who risk their lives on shaky home-made
rafts on the open sea in search of a better life. They are not the
ones who leave their homelands in search of opportunity. They have
not
known civil war, or hunger or hardship. They are not the ones with
nothing to lose.

Cubans. Haitians. Somali's. Phillipino's. Timorese.
They are the immigrants of the 21st century. They are the ones
fleeing
persecution and poverty, seeking a better life. They have far more in
common with the passengers on the Mayflower than the overfed,
overweight, self-satisfied, self-righteous, tax-paying, groundhogs
sitting behind their computers and filling the Net with wannabe
hogwash, boasting about their ancestor's deeds and imagining
themselves to be their spiritual heirs.

And no claptrap about "Yeah, but  Cubans can't build spaceships, only
shaky old rafts". Colonists don't build ships. They colonise. Or die
trying. And when launchers have been privatised, when the American
public in 2030 has tired of the short-lived space-colonisation fad,
and turned to watch Star Trek reruns, who will be the ones who scrape
up their life's savings, sell off a son or daughter to pimps, and
travel in dangerous, untrustworthy rockets to face an uncertain
future
in the moon colonies (while American taxpayers whine about all these
foreign immigrant types living in colonies paid for by THEIR money,
and isn't it time they did something about it, bla bla bla ..)

The ones with nothing to lose.

And that means NOT you.

Lets refrain from advertiseing shall we. Afer all there really is
only one active member in the group.

The Group I am personally a part of, Is Xenotechresearch.
For many years. there were only the two of us, LMAO.
We now have representatives on every continent.
Another private space group, far better funded than we, is 'Space Island Group'
they are primarily interested in Orbital Tourism & Industry & content to leave
the main belt & other colony concepts till much later.
SIG or Space Island Group, has got a great launch vehicle on the drawing board,
using improved space shuttle tech from the same contractors, larger solid fuel
boosters, improved shuttle main engines. They also have Rutan on board as well
as the designer of the Delta Clipper Vertical takeoff & landing orbital vehicle,
which is also being improved upon. http://www.spaceislandgroup.com/home.html   
We hope they will permit deployment of our solar thermal hybrid drive robotic
probes to the belt, in exchange for some of our technologies. As for the actual
colonists in the next 15 years, we have not selected them yet, the field is wide
open & I am telling many who wish to live in space, to cultivate the low & high
tech skills in themselves. We intend to take colonists from every nation, as
long as they have a variety of skills to offer. That is the best answer I can
give you. Who will be the first colonists ? Perhaps YOU !!!!!!!!
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Allright, that answers what kind of people (and animals) will be
colonists but not who, i want a description of the individual, or
group of individuals who "want to go to space" as you say it, and why.

Naturally, we have given this matter a lot of thought.
Every Plant & Animal we take must have more than one aspect in it's favor.
Italian Honeybees are BOTH Industrious AND nonaggressive. Goats can provide meat
, milk, & cheese, AND Garbage disposal AND nitrogen rich fertilizer in little
balls easy to collect & process. Hemp will provide fibers for textiles, pulp for
paper, oils, cerial & medicine. The humans we take will need to WANT to live in
space, they will all need working knowledge of astronomy, space science, & each
must have low as well as high tech skills. It will be frontier living in the
first decades, & butchering meat, making cheeses, baking bread, weaving cloth
will be no less important that metallurgy, programming, & high energy physics.
WE would hope that each colonist will have something to contribute in the way of
Both High tech & Low tech skills & understanding.





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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Here is a question for you. We are all common in thinking that space
is the future of humankind, and that it is probably necessary for the
survival of our species, but space travel isn't for everyone. But do
we really know who those pioneers will be?

Tell that to the mars Lander Program

Our bot programs have been succsesful for 3 years now, in Virtual reality
universe complete down to hiesenburg uncertainties




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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I wish i could boast that i am a part of such an effort but...i
wouldn't be telling the truth. All that i can offer is my opion based
on what i know. But i am still optomistic, although i do not really
have expertise, i feel that i can still contribute as a facilitator,
or maybe catalist is a better word. in either case i hope my un-
educated guess will spawn ideas in those that actually have technical
skills...I digress, what im tring to say is that i think your right,
instead of chosing robot over human or visa versa, we inevatably
choose both, but i would add that adaquite expiramentation with
robotics in space is nesscicary before we could ever hope to plan
anything ambitious, and that i think requires human testing and
construction in a near earth orbital envirnment.

I think Mir lasted twice as long as the soviets ever intended her
to. As a matter of national pride, continued funding was secured
from GOD knows where , even after the fall of soviet union, they
have every reason to be very proud of Mir. & we all shed our tears
as she fell, but she had a long & distinguished life. What goes up,
must come down.... ;)

Here's my humble prediction, Within the decade, humans will send
robotic mining probes into the main asteroid belt, to reproduce
themselves using asteroidal matter, till we have a huge solar
powered labor force out there, mining , refing, & storing refined
metals, glass, chrondites, solvents , gasses, & water in preparation
for arrival of human colonists............. Completely sidestepping
all food & lifesupport costs in the early stages. This is the only
really affordable approach to opening space to human colonization.
Once the belt industry & free fall rotating colonies have been
established, only then do planetfall colonies become affordable.
Even a Lunar base could not survive for long without resources from
the Main belt & cometary belts.I am part of a privately funded space
effort to proceed in just the manner described. I'm happy to field
any questions or comments.

I don't exactly know if anyone sees these postings anymore but, i
guess i'll write this for my own health. I have mixed frrlings about
this whole spaceship one thing, i do belive that it is an increadable
step forward for non governmend devlepmet of space, and i belive it
will spawn reneiwed interest in the heavens above by the average
individual, and It shows that it's even possible for comercial craft
to go to space where some thought it not, but...i can't help feeling
left out, I kinda wish i was the one apart of the whole thing, even
thought im underqualifed and have no assosiation with the particualar
company that claimed the x-prize. It just makes me feel like a
hopless dreamer...who am i kidding, I AM!

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We were recently granted access to equipment at White Sands Missile
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That, and much more exciting stuff is in the works -- bringing space
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Regards,




Parker E.C. Bradley


Pres./C.E.O.


Heron Aerospace




www.HeronAerospace.com

Okay, so here's my opinion on the whole Mir
thing: Yes, Mir's time had come and gone, in fact it
stayed up 10 years longer than it was designed to. It
never was designed to be an orbiting hotel or a
spaceport to serve as a springboard for future space
endeavors. It was an orbiting science facility that had
become a danger to itself and any crew members that
dared to live there.<br><br>With the Progress
collision, the fire, the failing power grid, the
uncontrollable fungal growth, and the hundreds of loose cables
that were added to extend the stations useful life, it
was an (another)accident waiting to happen.<br><br>I
have read messages on other boards that said they
should take the good parts off of Mir and find a way to
connect them to the ISS to save money on new modules.
This is crazy. I would compare such an action to
taking the processor out of a Commodore 64 (remember
those?)and putting it into your new PC just to save money.
First of all they are WAY incompatible and Mir parts
are obsolete.<br><br>So, in my humble opinion, there
was not much more that they could do. Bring it back
now while there is still a chance of bringing it in
with some sort of control over where it will
fall.<br><br>Michael

Okay, so here's my opinion on the whole Mir
thing: Yes, Mir's time had come and gone, in fact it
stayed up 10 years longer than it was designed to. It
never was designed to be an orbiting hotel or a
spaceport to serve as a springboard for future space
endeavors. It was an orbiting science facility that had
become a danger to itself and any crew members that
dared to live there.<br><br>With the Progress
collision, the fire, the failing power grid, the
uncontrollable fungal growth, and the hundreds of loose cables
that were added to extend the stations useful life, it
was an (another)accident waiting to happen.<br><br>I
have read messages on other boards that said they
should take the good parts off of Mir and find a way to
connect them to the ISS to save money on new modules.
This is crazy. I would compare such an action to
taking the processor out of a Commodore 64 (remember
those?)and putting it into your new PC just to save money.
First of all they are WAY incompatible and Mir parts
are obsolete.<br><br>So, in my humble opinion, there
was not much more that they could do. Bring it back
now while there is still a chance of bringing it in
with some sort of control over where it will
fall.<br><br>Michael

Okay, so here's my opinion on the whole Mir
thing: Yes, Mir's time had come and gone, in fact it
stayed up 10 years longer than it was designed to. It
never was designed to be an orbiting hotel or a
spaceport to serve as a springboard for future space
endeavors. It was an orbiting science facility that had
become a danger to itself and any crew members that
dared to live there.<br><br>With the Progress
collision, the fire, the failing power grid, the
uncontrollable fungal growth, and the hundreds of loose cables
that were added to extend the stations useful life, it
was an (another)accident waiting to happen.<br><br>I
have read messages on other boards that said they
should take the good parts off of Mir and find a way to
connect them to the ISS to save money on new modules.
This is crazy. I would compare such an action to
taking the processor out of a Commodore 64 (remember
those?)and putting it into your new PC just to save money.
First of all they are WAY incompatible and Mir parts
are obsolete.<br><br>So, in my humble opinion, there
was not much more that they could do. Bring it back
now while there is still a chance of bringing it in
with some sort of control over where it will
fall.<br><br>Michael

Okay, so here's my opinion on the whole Mir
thing: Yes, Mir's time had come and gone, in fact it
stayed up 10 years longer than it was designed to. It
never was designed to be an orbiting hotel or a
spaceport to serve as a springboard for future space
endeavors. It was an orbiting science facility that had
become a danger to itself and any crew members that
dared to live there.<br><br>With the Progress
collision, the fire, the failing power grid, the
uncontrollable fungal growth, and the hundreds of loose cables
that were added to extend the stations useful life, it
was an (another)accident waiting to happen.<br><br>I
have read messages on other boards that said they
should take the good parts off of Mir and find a way to
connect them to the ISS to save money on new modules.
This is crazy. I would compare such an action to
taking the processor out of a Commodore 64 (remember
those?)and putting it into your new PC just to save money.
First of all they are WAY incompatible and Mir parts
are obsolete.<br><br>So, in my humble opinion, there
was not much more that they could do. Bring it back
now while there is still a chance of bringing it in
with some sort of control over where it will
fall.<br><br>Michael

Okay, so here's my opinion on the whole Mir
thing: Yes, Mir's time had come and gone, in fact it
stayed up 10 years longer than it was designed to. It
never was designed to be an orbiting hotel or a
spaceport to serve as a springboard for future space
endeavors. It was an orbiting science facility that had
become a danger to itself and any crew members that
dared to live there.<br><br>With the Progress
collision, the fire, the failing power grid, the
uncontrollable fungal growth, and the hundreds of loose cables
that were added to extend the stations useful life, it
was an (another)accident waiting to happen.<br><br>I
have read messages on other boards that said they
should take the good parts off of Mir and find a way to
connect them to the ISS to save money on new modules.
This is crazy. I would compare such an action to
taking the processor out of a Commodore 64 (remember
those?)and putting it into your new PC just to save money.
First of all they are WAY incompatible and Mir parts
are obsolete.<br><br>So, in my humble opinion, there
was not much more that they could do. Bring it back
now while there is still a chance of bringing it in
with some sort of control over where it will
fall.<br><br>Michael

My personal opinion is that if we are just going
to let our million dollar space machines that are a
little beat up come crashing to the ground, then why do
we (the government) just keep sending new machines
back up there?<br><br> Bryan

My personal opinion is that if we are just going
to let our million dollar space machines that are a
little beat up come crashing to the ground, then why do
we (the government) just keep sending new machines
back up there?<br><br> Bryan

My personal opion on this mater i will say right
now. i was very happy when someone offered to buy Mir
and fix it up to use for torrisum(i cant spell) but
noooo! they just say no and let it fall into the ocean,
or into our backyards.

Another topic:<br><br>Had MIR's time really come
or did we send it to the junkyard (i.e. the South
Pacific) too soon?<br><br>Were we so anxious to get the
newest model that we threw out a perfectly good vehicle?
Sure it had a few dents and dings, but...<br><br>I do
have a personal opinion on this but I'll wait to share
it until a couple more posts happen.<br><br>Come on
gang, lets really make this a community. We're all
obviously all interested in space so let's get it
going.<br><br>Michael

So the answer we've come up with is the same
thing we've been doing for 4 decades now. We send a
robotic explorer out to "test the waters." Just as
Sputnik preceeded Yuri Gagarin's flight. (Hard to believe
that happened 40 years ago and we still only have
three people living out there at a time.)<br><br>As for
robotic explorers, although they found an inhospitable
climate on the moon, we went anyway. But with the aid of
the first earth-born robotic explorers, we knew more
of what to expect when we got there.<br><br>So,
Regardless of the primary function of the "robot," whether
it be a landing probe, a satellite that images the
planet or something we've not seen yet that has
artificial intelligence, human journeys into space have
always been and will probably always be preceeded by a
"robot" of some sort.<br><br>I think what we need to
address is whether we will exclusively utilize robotic
explorers to expand into our little solar neighborhood or
if we will follow them once we posess the
knowledge.<br><br>I think the human race must venture out in person.

Yes even if we have an easy way to have humans
fliying around in space with no long-term effects we will
still most likely use robots not out of nescesity but
out of convinience, we probubly will have robots
still searching the universe for habitable planets, and
when we find one we will go there in person.