Greg Chapman wrote:
> HTMLTidy will automatically correct some basic errors and
> provide a user definable pretty layout

Yes but that layout is not the way I like it. What I do recommend is
the Html Validator extension for Firefox. It gives you both the W3C
Validator errors and Html Tidy warnings and hints and lets you view
the source with the relevant part highlighted -- a big help. The
only thing it does not do is character errors because the extension
only sees the code after thert browser has internally converted the
characters. (This is a bad thing for me, because I prefer to write
German in US-ASCII encoding and these are my most frequent
mistakes.)

N.B: I too am happy to take a look at your code, Joe. We'll soon
lick those errors, promise.

Axel

woodysnomad wrote:
> I also used utf-8 for the charater set
> but have no idea what that is for or if it's working.

If you are writing with NoteTab in Windows, then the standard
Windows character set is what your files actually contain. That
being the case, this is what you should tell the browser they are,
i.e:
<META HTTP-EQUIV="Content-Type"
       CONTENT="text/html; charset=windows-1252">

Axel

Joe wrote:
>  Also where I put BODY following HEAD according to everything
>have read, I get a validation error of document type does not allow
>element BODY here?  No clue here.

Look what you have on the line before the opening BODY tag.
<http://www.htmlhelp.com/cgi-bin/validate.cgi?url=http%3A//nomad17.home.comcast.\
net/%7Enomad17/&warnings=yes&input=yes#L14>

It's like this. Both the start and closing tag for BODY are actually
optional in HTML (but keep on using thems!). If they aren't used,
they are "implied". No content, tags or text, can go between the
closing HEAD tag and the opening BODY tag. But you have put a BR
there. When the validator encounters the BR, it correctly assumes an
implied opening BODY tag must come before it. So when it comes to the
opening BODY tag you actually wrote, it sees it as a second BODY tag.

It's a machine. It takes it line by line. That's why its output is
sometimes a little oracle like. What you want to hear is: "Hey!
You've put a BR tag between HEAD and BODY. That's no good!". The a
validator won't say that, but I can. ;-)

Lotta

My code is at http://nomad17.home.comcast.net
I corrected the <BR> between HEAD and BODY and that error went away...
one more down...
I put in the META statement for Windows Character set and that works
too...
It seems all that is left is the endtag for element P is not open.  I
will try to remove the close </P> and see if that makes a difference
but now I must get presentable.  Thanks for your great responses!
CYA, Joe

OH yeah... I tried to download HTML Tidy and I get an error to use a
binary filter next time.  What's up with that?

Joe wrote:
>I corrected the <BR> between HEAD and BODY and that error went away...

Yay!

>one more down...
>I put in the META statement for Windows Character set and that works
>too...

Almost anything (within reason) will work if you use only ASCII
characters. Personally I wouldn't use the Windows Charset, but to each his own.

>It seems all that is left is the endtag for element P is not open

This is actually a parallel to the error with the BODY tag. Let's
look at the first occurrence of the error here.
<http://www.htmlhelp.com/cgi-bin/validate.cgi?url=http%3A//nomad17.home.comcast.\
net/%7Enomad17/&warnings=yes&input=yes#L102>

You have this HTML:

   99
<<http://www.htmlhelp.com/cgi-bin/validate.cgi?url=http%3A//nomad17.home.comcast\
.net/%7Enomad17//reference/html40/block/p.html>P>
100
<<http://www.htmlhelp.com/cgi-bin/validate.cgi?url=http%3A//nomad17.home.comcast\
.net/%7Enomad17//reference/html40/special/a.html>A
NAME="Thanks"></A>
101
<<http://www.htmlhelp.com/cgi-bin/validate.cgi?url=http%3A//nomad17.home.comcast\
.net/%7Enomad17//reference/html40/block/h2.html>H2
ALIGN=CENTER>A Special Thanks to Ron Frenette and Bear Mountain Boats</H2>
102   </P>

Now, the end tag for P is optional (but it's good that you use it -
keep doing that). P can't contain other block level elements. H2 is a
block level element. When the validator comes to the H2 it considers
the P to be closed. Therefore the closing P tag that you actually
wrote is unmatched. Are you beginning to see the pattern now? :-)

It's very important to learn what other elements an element can
contain. The WDG reference is handy for these things. Look at the
first error statement in WDG's validation result, "Error: end tag for
element
<http://www.htmlhelp.com/cgi-bin/validate.cgi?url=http%3A//nomad17.home.comcast.\
net/%7Enomad17//reference/html40/block/p.html>P
which is not open...". The P is linked. If you click it you are taken
to the section about P in the reference.
<http://www.htmlhelp.com/reference/html40/block/p.html>
Look at the bits called "Contents" and "Contained in".
---------------------------------
Contents:
<http://www.htmlhelp.com/reference/html40/block/../inline.html>Inline elements
---------------------------------
So, no bock level elements in a P.

Lotta








>.  I
>will try to remove the close </P> and see if that makes a difference
>but now I must get presentable.  Thanks for your great responses!
>CYA, Joe
>
>OH yeah... I tried to download HTML Tidy and I get an error to use a
>binary filter next time.  What's up with that?
>
>
>------------------------------------
>
>Fookes Software: http://www.fookes.com/
>NoteTab website: http://www.notetab.com/
>NoteTab Discussion Lists: http://www.notetab.com/groups.php
>
>***
>Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>

What the heck? When I got my post back the HTML sample was converted
to some mumbo jumbo with links in it. How did that happen? OK, I'll
try to post that bit again.

I wrote (or meant to):

You have this HTML:


   99   <P>
100     <A NAME="Thanks"></A>
101     <H2 ALIGN=CENTER>A Special Thanks to Ron Frenette and Bear
Mountain Boats</H2>
102   </P>

Now, the end tag for P is optional (but it's good that you use it -
keep doing that). P can't contain other block level elements. H2 is a
block level element. When the validator comes to the H2 it considers
the P to be closed. Therefore the closing P tag that you actually
wrote is unmatched. Are you beginning to see the pattern now? :-)

Lotta

I didn't see there was more of the same. Something must think it's
Word all of a sudden. The last part should be like this.

It's very important to learn what other elements an element can
contain. The WDG reference is handy for these things. Look at the
first error statement in WDG's validation result, "
Error: end tag for element P which is not open...". The P is linked.
If you click it you are taken to the section about P in the reference.
<http://www.htmlhelp.com/reference/html40/block/p.html>

Look at the bits called "
Contents" and "Contained in".
---------------------------------
Contents: Inline elements
---------------------------------
So, no bock level elements in a P.

Lotta

loro wrote:
> Personally I wouldn't use the Windows Charset, but to each his own.

Why, please? If and when you write using NoteTab cp1252 is what your
files actually are. If you want them to be anything else you have to go
the extra mile and actively convert them. Actually, this is what I do on
my own sites. I prefer US-ASCII for its lowest level rock bottom
comptibility, and inevitably all to often an umlaut creeps in in some
last minute correction after the characters had already been converted.

There are good reasons to use another character set, agreed, but then
you have to actually use it. Just declaring it is wrong and does
nothing.
NoteTab is wrong here. Out of the box it declares ISO 8859-1. Now
agreed, most of the characters are the same, but who guarantees you'll
never use any of the others?

Using one thing and declaring another is wrong. Declaring something that
not all older browsers can be relied on to recognize is a bit less than
ideal, but at least it's correct.

Axel

That feels great... Validated   Thanks to all and I am learning new
tricks for an old retired dog.

Now, did anyone look at the web site  http://nomad17.home.comcast.net
and actually see the table with the different topics?  I added a
special character for the bullet, two non breaking spaces and the
topic but everything is underlined.  How can I correct this or at
least no underline under the bullet and blank spaces!  Also if I use
the bullet special character, how do I find out what set it belongs to?
If the diehards remember, I used LI in the table and got all kinds of
errors but it worked and I had a bullet and no underlining.   ?????
True to form, ain't it great if it works but WOW if it don't...
CYA, Joe

Joe wrote:
>That feels great... Validated   Thanks to all and I am learning new
>tricks for an old retired dog.

Congratulations! You are quick about it too. :-)

Lotta

Joe wrote:
>Now, did anyone look at the web site  http://nomad17.home.comcast.net
>and actually see the table with the different topics?  I added a
>special character for the bullet, two non breaking spaces and the
>topic but everything is underlined.

Move the bullet and the spaces outside the link.
Instead of this
<A HREF="#Thanks">•  A Special Thanks</A>
use this.
•  <A HREF="#Thanks">A Special Thanks</A>

You know, that should probably be a list. The margin problem is
easily controlled with CSS. You shouldn't use BLOCKQUOTE for margins
either. It should be reserved for block quotes and the margins
browser add can differ from browser to browser anyway. But you can
fix those things as you learn more CSS. You are getting there, keep at it. :-)

Lotta

Hi All,

Please pardon me for jumping into an ongoing thread.

In the existing thread with subject line, "[NH] Validator...", Axel wrote:
<< What I do recommend is the Html Validator extension for Firefox. It gives
you both the W3C Validator errors and Html Tidy warnings and hints and lets
you view the source with the relevant part highlighted -- a big help. >>

As recommended, I went to http://validator.w3.org/ but didn't see on the home
page or in the FAQ any downloadable validator extensions for Firefox or MSIE.
I also checked the Add-in tool within Firefox and did find four validators,
but they appear to be written either by some private individuals or are part
of some larger commercial suite. Please tell me how to download the HTML
validator for Firefox from the W3C site. Tell me also whether a similar add-in
or browser helper object is available for MSIE v7.0.

Thank you.

Ray Shapp

Ray Shapp wrote:
> I also checked the Add-in tool within Firefox and did find four
> validators, but they appear to be written either by some private
> individuals

Yes sorry, I might have been clearer. It is one of those four. It's
not by the W3C as such, but it uses the W3C engine internally and
thus gives identical results. (I have not looked into it, but I
presume all W3C stuff is open source anyway.
Of the four validators (n.b. I just checked and found fourteen) only
one, the one by Marc Gueury is called "Html Validator". I can't say
anything, either for or against, about any of the others, but I
found this one just right for me.

Axel

This is the add-on Axel was speaking of:
https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/249

The W3C doesn't make a validator add-on.


----- Original Message -----
From: "Ray Shapp"
Sent: Sunday, May 11, 2008 2:26 PM
Subject: [NH] HTML Validator Extension


> In the existing thread with subject line, "[NH] Validator...", Axel wrote:
> << What I do recommend is the Html Validator extension for Firefox... >>

Ray,
>Tell me also whether a similar add-in
>or browser helper object is available for MSIE v7.0.

Yes, for the other, but not lesser, validator.
<http://www.htmlhelp.com/tools/widgets/#valid>

If you want to use the w3c validator you could for instance install the

Web Accessibility Toolbar.

<http://www.visionaustralia.org.au/info.aspx?page=614>
There are bookmarklets too, for example here.
<http://tantek.com/favelets/>

Lotta

Ray Shapp <ras45@...> said on May 11, 2008 17:26 -0400 (in
part):
> In the existing thread with subject line, "[NH] Validator...", Axel wrote:
> << What I do recommend is the Html Validator extension for Firefox. It
> gives
> you both the W3C Validator errors and Html Tidy warnings and hints and
> lets
> you view the source with the relevant part highlighted -- a big help. >>
>
> As recommended, I went to http://validator.w3.org/ but didn't see on
> the home
> page or in the FAQ any downloadable validator extensions for Firefox
> or MSIE.
> I also checked the Add-in tool within Firefox and did find four
> validators,
> but they appear to be written either by some private individuals or
> are part
> of some larger commercial suite. Please tell me how to download the HTML
> validator for Firefox from the W3C site. Tell me also whether a
> similar add-in
> or browser helper object is available for MSIE v7.0.
Hi Ray:
In Firefox 2.x I use http://chrispederick.com/work/web-developer/
extension which adds a toolbar. Amongst all sorts of other goodies it
adds access to HTML, CSS, Accessibility and JavaScript verification. It
has three info buttons at right side which indicate no-errors/errors wrt
to HTML/CSS/JavaScript. Site claims it works with Firefox 3 though I
haven't used it with that yet. It also has View Source access to
reconfigured editors. I have mine setup for NVu and Notetab.

Somewhat related: Validation can't be done on a file existing only on
local system accessed through file:// protocol. I suspect but haven't
yet verified that I can get around this by installing Apache.

=================
Offtopic: If anyone has any tips for running Apache as just a local
server I'd appreciate the help.
FWIW: I've set in C:\Program Files\Apache Software
Foundation\Apache2.2\conf\httpd.conf:
ServerName MYDESKTOP.localhost:80

I first set:
<Directory "C:\apacheSites"> and put a file at
"C:\apacheSites\testing.html"  at and tried to display it  in browser
as: http://localhost/testing.html
this resulted in 404 - Not Found and this message in C:\Program
Files\Apache Software Foundation\Apache2.2\logs\access.log
127.0.0.1 - - [11/May/2008:19:57:10 -0400] "GET
/apacheSites/testing.html HTTP/1.1" 404 222

looking more closely at httpd.conf comments it looks like it s/b:
<Directory "C:\apacheSites\htdocs"> and the file  s/b
"C:\apacheSites\htdocs\testing.html"
now I'm getting 403 - Forbidden You don't have permission to access
/testing.html on this server
and no lines added to access.log.
However trying "http://localhost/nosuchfile.html" (ie something that
doesn't exist) also gives a 403 - Forbidden

so it looks like Apache at least is getting involved when I try to use
http://localhost/ but something is still wrong.
I'll keep digging around in FAQ's etc but thought where I've got to so
far might ring a bell with those of you who actually run web-sites?

Regards ... Alec -- buralex-gmail
--



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I have used XAMPP (both in Windoze and now Linux) to run a development
server. It has an auto installer that sets everything up.  Be aware
though that it is not a WORKING server.  I only use it when I am
off-line because of security issues.  It installs on the C drive (or
/opt) NOT program files which might be part of your problem.

I have never had a problem validating files in the XAMPP folders via
W3C even when the server wasn't running.


--- buralex@... wrote:
>
> Offtopic: If anyone has any tips for running Apache as just a local
> server I'd appreciate the help.
> FWIW: I've set in C:\Program Files\Apache Software
> Foundation\Apache2.2\conf\httpd.conf:
> ServerName MYDESKTOP.localhost:80
>
> I first set:
> <Directory "C:\apacheSites"> and put a file at
> "C:\apacheSites\testing.html"  at and tried to display it  in browser
>
> as: http://localhost/testing.html
> this resulted in 404 - Not Found and this message in C:\Program
> Files\Apache Software Foundation\Apache2.2\logs\access.log
> 127.0.0.1 - - [11/May/2008:19:57:10 -0400] "GET
> /apacheSites/testing.html HTTP/1.1" 404 222
>
> looking more closely at httpd.conf comments it looks like it s/b:
> <Directory "C:\apacheSites\htdocs"> and the file  s/b
> "C:\apacheSites\htdocs\testing.html"
> now I'm getting 403 - Forbidden You don't have permission to access
> /testing.html on this server
> and no lines added to access.log.
> However trying "http://localhost/nosuchfile.html" (ie something that
> doesn't exist) also gives a 403 - Forbidden
>
> so it looks like Apache at least is getting involved when I try to
> use
> http://localhost/ but something is still wrong.
> I'll keep digging around in FAQ's etc but thought where I've got to
> so
> far might ring a bell with those of you who actually run web-sites?
>
> Regards ... Alec -- buralex-gmail
> --
>
>
>


      
________________________________________________________________________________\
____
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know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile.  Try it now. 
http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ

Hi Axel, Cary, Lotta, Alec:

Thanks for your replies.

The HTML Validator Add-on for Firefox by Marc Gueury appears to come in three
flavors, "HTML Tidy", "SGML Parser", and "Serial". I chose "HTML Tidy"
although that choice is advertised as NOT yielding the "Same errors than the
validator.w3.org". I chose that option because it is the only one that offers
"Good help". I'm confused about this though because a user can select any one
of the three validator algorithms in the Options panel. The download did say
that SGML is included with HTML Tidy, but the options panel also offers
"Serial" validation. Am I misinterpreting what the options panel is saying?

This is a minor issue because I'll probably stay with HTML Tidy only.

Thanks again.

Ray Shapp

I have it set to Serial so it does the real validation first. If you
understand the W3C's validation results, then the information if gives is
more than enough. If there aren't any errors with the real SGML validation,
then it will run Tidy which points out things which aren't necessarily
errors such as empty div or span tags which may be intentional.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Ray Shapp"
Sent: Sunday, May 11, 2008 6:58 PM
Subject: Re: [NH] HTML Validator Extension


> The HTML Validator Add-on for Firefox by Marc Gueury appears to come in
three
> flavors, "HTML Tidy", "SGML Parser", and "Serial". I chose "HTML Tidy"
> although that choice is advertised as NOT yielding the "Same errors than
the
> validator.w3.org". I chose that option because it is the only one that
offers
> "Good help". I'm confused about this though because a user can select any
one
> of the three validator algorithms in the Options panel. The download did
say
> that SGML is included with HTML Tidy, but the options panel also offers
> "Serial" validation. Am I misinterpreting what the options panel is
saying?

buralex@... wrote:
> In Firefox 2.x I use http://chrispederick.com/work/web-developer/
> extension which adds a toolbar. Amongst all sorts of other
> goodies it adds access to HTML, CSS, Accessibility and
> JavaScript verification.

I have it installed but rarely use it. For one thing the toolbar is
wider than my window and does not fold, so half of it resides
inaccessibly in thin air to the right of the monitor. The thing
about "Html Validator" is that you need no extra clicks or
keystrokes and no extra web accesses, it just sits there and
displays the number of errors for every page currently showing. And
as long as that is zero for all of mine and something bigger for all
the others I continue feeling smug and comfortable.

Axel

Ray Shapp wrote:
> Am I misinterpreting what the options panel is saying?

Possibly. I've set it to serial. That way it runs the W3C algorithm
first and displays all true errors. After that it runs Tidy and
displays its warnings. These I tend to ignore, because although not
quite clean, they're usually there on pupose.
It's things like an empty <P></P> which due to margin and padding
gives me just the space I want without blowing up my stylesheets
further with one more special case definition.

> I'll probably stay with HTML Tidy only.

I on the other hand could easily do without but need the true
validation.

Axel

To All,

The "margin-left" element in a CSS style sheet is acting like "indent". When
the associated text in my HTML document wraps, I expect it to wrap to the
specified left margin. Instead, only the first line of text is indented. The
second and succeeding lines wrap to the left margin of the cell.

The style sheet and the HTML document are included below. Together these two
files produce a listing of articles which have appeared in back issues of a
newsletter. The first row for each article gives original publication date,
the starting page number, and the author's name. Some articles have a
sub-title, and some articles have a summary. Some articles have both a
sub-title and a summary. I want the sub-title and the summary (if present) to
both display beginning at a displaced left margin. That's not working as
desired. For example, the third article in the listing has a long summary.
Only the first line of the summary is indented. The second line of the summary
wraps back to the original left margin of the cell.

I know I could add a fourth cell to every row in the table and display the
sub-title and the summary in the fourth cell (leaving cells 1, 2, and 3
blank). It seems to me that CSS should make that artifice unnecessary. Please
tell me the CSS solution.

Note: the undesirable wrapping is the same in MSIE v7 and Firefox v2.

Ray Shapp


***C:\asterism\styles\basic.css begins on 2nd line below***

@charset "utf-8";
/* CSS Document */
/* By Ray Shapp */

.basic_headline {
color : #000000;
font-family : Arial, sans-serif;
font-size : 1.8em;
font-weight : bold;
}

.basic_issue {
color : #000000;
font-family : Arial, sans-serif;
font-size : .8em;
vertical-align: middle;
line-height: 1.2em;
margin-left: 0%;
margin-right: 0%;
}

.basic_page {
color : #000000;
font-family : Arial, sans-serif;
font-size : .8em;
vertical-align: middle;
line-height: 1.2em;
margin-left: 2%;
margin-right: 0%;
}

.basic_title {
font-family : Arial, sans-serif;
font-size : .8em;
vertical-align: middle;
line-height: 1.2em;
font-weight : bold;
margin-left: 0%;
margin-right: 0%;
}

.basic_author {
color : #000000;
font-family : Arial, sans-serif;
font-size : .8em;
vertical-align: middle;
line-height: 1.2em;
margin-left: 0%;
margin-right: 0%;
}

.basic_subtitle {
color : #dd5622;
font-family : Arial, sans-serif;
font-size : .8em;
font-weight : bold;
margin-left: 2%;
margin-right: 0%;
}

.basic_summary {
color : #000000;
font-family : Arial, sans-serif;
font-size : .8em;
margin-left: 2%;
margin-right: 0%;
}

.basic_leading {
color : #000000;
font-family : Arial, sans-serif;
font-size : .4em;
margin-left: 0%;
margin-right: 0%;
}

.basic_body_text {
color : #000000;
font-family : Arial, sans-serif;
font-size : .8em;
margin-left: 0%;
margin-right: 0%;
}

.basic_nav_text {
color : #000000;
font-family : Arial, sans-serif;
font-size : .8em;
font-weight : bold;
margin-left: 0%;
margin-right: 0%;
}

.basic_prototype {
background-color : #D3D3D3;
border-top : 1px solid #000000;
width : 800px;
color : #000000;
font-family : Arial, sans-serif;
font-size : .8em;
vertical-align: bottom;
font-weight : bold;
padding : 2px 5px;
line-height: 1.2em;
margin-left: 0%;
margin-right: 0%;
}
***CSS style sheet ends on the line above***


***HTML document begins on 2nd line below***

<!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD XHTML 1.0 Transitional//EN"
     "http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml1/DTD/xhtml1-transitional.dtd">

<html xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml">
   <head>
     <meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8" />

     <title>Articles of Enduring Interest</title>
     <link rel="stylesheet" type="text/css" href="../styles/basic.css" />
   </head>

   <body bgcolor="#D3D3D3">
     <!--==== Program: endure.htm,  Author: Ray Shapp  ==========-->

     <table width="800" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" align="center"
border="0" summary="Listing of articles">
       <tr>
         <td align="center" colspan="4"><img src="../gifs/astrline.gif"
width="460" height="42" alt="Drawing of Observatory" /></td>
       </tr>

       <tr>
         <td colspan="4"> </td>
       </tr>

       <tr>
         <td align="center" colspan="4"><font class="basic_headline">Articles
of Enduring Interest</font></td>
       </tr>

       <tr>
         <td colspan="5"> </td>
       </tr>
       <!-- Enter up to three rows of info for each article here -->

       <tr>
         <td width="70"><font class="basic_issue">Sep 2005</font></td>

         <td width="49"><font class="basic_page">Pg 3</font></td>

         <td width="529"><a
href="../newsletter/2005-09.pdf#page=3&view=Fit"><font
class="basic_title">Astronomical Time Scales</font></a></td>

         <td width="159"><font class="basic_author">Lew Thomas</font></td>
       </tr>

       <tr>
         <td colspan="4">
         </td>

         <td><font class="basic_leading"> </font></td>

         <td>
         </td>
       </tr>

       <tr>
         <td width="70">
         </td>

         <td width="49"><font class="basic_page">Pg 4</font></td>

         <td width="529"><a
href="../newsletter/2005-09.pdf#page=4&view=Fit"><font
class="basic_title">Stewart's Skybox</font></a></td>

         <td width="159"><font class="basic_author">Stewart Meyers</font></td>
       </tr>

       <tr>
         <td colspan="2">
         </td>

         <td><font class="basic_subtitle">Deep Impact (Not the
Movie)</font></td>

         <td>
         </td>
       </tr>

       <tr>
         <td colspan="2">
         </td>

         <td><font class="basic_summary">Coverage of the Deep Impact mission as
well as an overview of comets in general.</font></td>

         <td>
         </td>
       </tr>

       <tr>
         <td colspan="4">
         </td>

         <td><font class="basic_leading"> </font></td>

         <td>
         </td>
       </tr>

       <tr>
         <td width="70"><font class="basic_issue">Oct 2005</font></td>

         <td width="49"><font class="basic_page">Pg 4</font></td>

         <td width="529"><a
href="../newsletter/2005-10.pdf#page=4&view=Fit"><font
class="basic_title">Stewart's Skybox</font></a></td>

         <td width="159"><font class="basic_author">Stewart Meyers</font></td>
       </tr>

       <tr>
         <td colspan="2">
         </td>

         <td><font class="basic_subtitle">A Possible 10</font></td>

         <td>
         </td>
       </tr>

       <tr>
         <td colspan="2">
         </td>

         <td><font class="basic_summary">Background on the discovery of the
object that would later be named Eris as well as its impact on the "Pluto as a
planet" debate.</font></td>

         <td>
         </td>
       </tr>

       <tr>
         <td colspan="4">
         </td>

         <td><font class="basic_leading"> </font></td>

         <td>
         </td>
       </tr>

       <tr>
         <td width="70"><font class="basic_issue">Nov 2005</font></td>

         <td width="49"><font class="basic_page">Pg 1</font></td>

         <td width="529"><a
href="../newsletter/2005-11.pdf#page=1&view=Fit"><font
class="basic_title">Old Astrophotographers Never Die... They Just
Redevelop</font></a></td>

         <td width="159"><font class="basic_author">Bonnie B.
Witzgall</font></td>
       </tr>

       <tr>
         <td colspan="4">
         </td>

         <td><font class="basic_leading"> </font></td>

         <td>
         </td>
       </tr>

       <tr>
         <td width="70"><font class="basic_issue">Mar 2006</font></td>

         <td width="49"><font class="basic_page">Pg 6</font></td>

         <td width="529"><a
href="../newsletter/2006-03.pdf#page=6&view=Fit"><font
class="basic_title">A New Look At The Early Universe</font></a></td>

         <td width="159"><font class="basic_author">Lew Thomas</font></td>
       </tr>

       <tr>
         <td colspan="2">
         </td>

         <td><font class="basic_summary">A hypothesis for negative mass moving
backwards along the time line.</font></td>

         <td>
         </td>
       </tr>

       <tr>
         <td colspan="4">
         </td>

         <td><font class="basic_leading"> </font></td>

         <td>
         </td>
       </tr>

       <tr>
         <td width="70"><font class="basic_issue">Aug 2006</font></td>

         <td width="49"><font class="basic_page">Pg 1</font></td>

         <td width="529"><a
href="../newsletter/2006-07.pdf#page=1&view=Fit"><font
class="basic_title">The New Red Spot On Jupiter</font></a></td>

         <td width="159"><font class="basic_author">Clif Ashcraft</font></td>
       </tr>

       <tr>
         <td colspan="4">
         </td>

         <td><font class="basic_leading"> </font></td>

         <td>
         </td>
       </tr>
       <!-- Prototype of three-line entry

       <tr>
               <td width="70"> <font class="basic_issue"> date </font> </td>
           <td width="49"> <font class="basic_page"> Pg # </font> </td>
           <td width="529"> <a
href="../newsletter/2005-09.pdf#page=3&view=Fit"> <font class="basic_title">
Main Title </font> </a> </td>
           <td width="159"> <font class="basic_author"> Author </font> </td>
       </tr>

       <tr>
               <td colspan="2"> </td>
           <td> <font class="basic_subtitle"> Subtitle </font> </td>
           <td> </td>
       </tr>

       <tr>
               <td colspan="2"> </td>
           <td> <font class="basic_summary"> Brief Summary </font> </td>
           <td> </td>
       </tr>

       <tr>
               <td colspan="4"> </td>
           <td> <font class="basic_leading">   </font> </td>
           <td> </td>
       </tr>

       -->
     </table>
     <br />
     <br />


     <table align="center" border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0"
width="600" summary="Selection criteria">
       <tr align="center" valign="middle">
         <td align="left" valign="middle" colspan="4">
           <p align="left"><font class="basic_body_text">Three members of AAI
will act as a selection panel to identify which articles from back issues of
the Asterism will appear on this page. The selection criteria are that each
article should have a sound astronomical basis and be of general interest to
AAI members. More specifically:</font></p>

           <ol>
             <li><font class="basic_body_text">The article should have
primarily scientific content or</font></li>

             <li>The article should give a historical treatment of its subject
or</li>

             <li>The article should be mainly instructional.</li>

             <li style="list-style: none"><br />
              In addition:<br />
             <br />
             </li>

             <li>Articles which serve mainly to express an author's opinion
will not be selected.</li>

             <li>Articles which are of an ephemeral nature will not be
selected.</li>
           </ol>
           The intent is to make it easy for users of the website to find
articles that would still be considered to be of value say ten years from
now.<br />
           <br />
           <br />
         </td>
       </tr>
     </table>

     <table align="center" border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0"
width="800" summary="Navigation links">
       <tr>
         <td align="center"><a href="ltrmenu.htm"><img
src="../gifs/orangbl1.gif" border="0" alt="Bullet" /> <font
class="basic_nav_text">Return to Newsletter menu</font></a></td>
       </tr>

       <tr>
         <td>
           <center>
             <a href="../aaihome.htm"><img src="../gifs/orangbl1.gif"
border="0" alt="Bullet" /> <font class="basic_nav_text">Return to
Home</font></a>
           </center>
         </td>
       </tr>

       <tr>
         <td> </td>
       </tr>

       <tr>
         <td align="center"><font face="Arial,Helvetica" color="#000000"
size="2">Maintained by <script type="text/javascript">
//<![CDATA[
<!--
document.write("<a
href='mailto:ray@asteris
\
9;.org'>
Ray Shapp<\/a>")
// -->
//]]>
         </script><br />
          Page last updated 05/15/2008</font></td>
       </tr>
     </table>
   </body>
</html>

Interviewed by CNN on 19/5/2008 17:50, Ray Shapp told the world:
> To All,
>
> The "margin-left" element in a CSS style sheet is acting like "indent". When
> the associated text in my HTML document wraps, I expect it to wrap to the
> specified left margin. Instead, only the first line of text is indented. The
> second and succeeding lines wrap to the left margin of the cell.
>
>
OK, that's easy to see where you went wrong. You tried to use a box
attribute (margin) in an inline element (font). Try eliminating the
<font> tag entirely and moving the "class" to the <td> element.

Marcelo Bastos

-=-=-
"I'm in the computer business, I make Out-Of-Order signs. "
* TagZilla 0.066 on Seamonkey 1.1.9

Hi Marcelo,

Thank you for your reply.

I don't comprehend what you are saying. I tried several permutations of moving
the basic-summary class into the TD tag or changing the style sheet to use
indent instead of margin-left. Most of my trials failed validation and none of
them produce the desired result.

The HTML snippet below passes validation. The CSS snippet doesn't adjust the
alignment of the summary whether I use "margin-left" or "indent". The result
of using the files from which these snippets were taken is that the summary is
displayed with no indentation of any part of the summary. The entire summary
is displayed flush left against the original left margin.

Please give an example of how to use margin-left.

Thank you.

Ray Shapp

***snippet from HTML file***

<tr>
<td colspan="2"></td>
<td class="basic_summary">Background on the discovery of the object that would
later be named Eris as well as its impact on the "Pluto as a planet"
debate.</td>
<td></td>
</tr>


***snippet from style sheet***

.basic_summary {
color : #000000;
font-family : Arial, sans-serif;
font-size : .8em;
margin-left: 2%;
margin-right: 0%;
}

Ray Shapp wrote:
> Hi Marcelo,
>
> Thank you for your reply.
>
> I don't comprehend what you are saying. I tried several permutations of moving
> the basic-summary class into the TD tag or changing the style sheet to use
> indent instead of margin-left. Most of my trials failed validation and none of
> them produce the desired result.
>
> The HTML snippet below passes validation. The CSS snippet doesn't adjust the
snip...
can you just give us an example page link?

Ray Shapp wrote:
> Please give an example of how to use margin-left.
> <td class="basic_summary">
> .basic_summary {
> color : #000000;
> font-family : Arial, sans-serif;
> font-size : .8em;
> margin-left: 2%;
> margin-right: 0%;
> }

It is very early in the morning her and I don't have the time for
your long example. Just this:
Margin gives an outer margin to the element in question, the table
cell. What you want is a magin to the the text, i.e. an inner margin
as seen from the cell. Try padding.

Axel

Ray Shapp <ras45@...> said on May 20, 2008 1:03 -0400 (in part):
> Hi Marcelo,
>
> Thank you for your reply.
>
> I don't comprehend what you are saying. I tried several permutations
> of moving
> the basic-summary class into the TD tag or changing the style sheet to
> use
> indent instead of margin-left. Most of my trials failed validation and
> none of
> them produce the desired result.
>
> The HTML snippet below passes validation. The CSS snippet doesn't
> adjust the
> alignment of the summary whether I use "margin-left" or "indent". The
> result
> of using the files from which these snippets were taken is that the
> summary is
> displayed with no indentation of any part of the summary. The entire
> summary
> is displayed flush left against the original left margin.
>
> Please give an example of how to use margin-left.
>
> Thank you.
>
> Ray Shapp
Hi Ray; (I'm very impressed with myself <GRIN>. This is the first time
I've used the free GOTD copy of CSE HTML Validator. Actually its the
first time I've used styles at all)

indent is not a valid property. Use text-indent instead (found by
googling CSS+indent which lead to a couple of examples)

Your sample (with headers inserted by Notetab TEXT-->HTML, formated by
CTL+F7 tidy.exe,  a couple of tweaks suggested by the CSE-Validator and
extra text so I could see if it actually indented)
  >>>>>>>>>>>
<!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01 Transitional//EN">


<html>
<head><style type="text/css">    .basicSummary {text-indent:5% ; color:
black;background-color : lightgreen; font-family : Arial,
     sans-serif; font-size : .8em; margin-left: 20%; margin-right:
     20%; }
</style>
     <meta http-equiv="Content-Type"
           content="text/html; charset=us-ascii">
     <meta name="generator"
           content="NoteTab Pro">

     <title>*** Your Title Here ***</title>
</head>

<body>

     <table>
         <tr>
             <td colspan="2"></td>

             <td class="basicSummary">I don't comprehend what you are
saying. I tried several permutations of moving
the basic-summary class into the TD tag or changing the style sheet to use
indent instead of margin-left. Most of my trials failed validation and
none of
them produce the desired result.

The HTML snippet below passes validation. The CSS snippet doesn't adjust
the
alignment of the summary whether I use "margin-left" or "indent". The
result
of using the files from which these snippets were taken is that the
summary is
displayed with no indentation of any part of the summary. The entire
summary
is displayed flush left against the original left margin.

Please give an example of how to use margin-left.</td>

             <td></td>
         </tr>
     </table>
</body>
</html>
<<<<<<<<<<<

Regards ... Alec -- buralex-gmail
--



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hi Don, Axel, Alec,

Thank you all for trying to help me, but I'm still at a loss.

Don, I did give complete copy of the style sheet file and the HTML file in the
original email. Another copy of that is included here below my signature.
Marcelo said the fix was easy, but I don't understand how to implement what he
suggested. Marcelo said:

    OK, that's easy to see where you went wrong. You tried to use a box
    attribute (margin) in an inline element (font). Try eliminating the
    <font> tag entirely and moving the "class" to the <td> element.

Axel, I did try padding even before I sent my first email. The problem is that
cellpadding applies to every cell in the table. In my case, I will be listing
about 70 or 80 articles that appeared in a newsletter. The original
publication date, the starting page number, the title, and the author's name
all appear on the first line of the listing for each article. None of these
cells should be padded. The second and third line of the listing for an
article may or may not be present. If present, the second line contains the
article's subtitle. If present the third line contains a summary. Both the
second line and the third line need to be indented. The problem is that if the
subtitle or the summary is too long, it will wrap back to the left margin. I
want the wrapped portion of subtitle or summary to be indented as much as the
first line of subtitle or summary.


Example of wrong format:

Date Pg    Title           Author
                        Subtitle (if present)
                        Summary begins indented but long line
                    wraps back to left margin of Title cell.


Example of correct format:

Date Pg   Title           Author
                        Subtitle (if present)
                        Summary begins indented and long line
                        wraps in line with same indent as subtitle and first
line of summary.

Alec, I also tried text-indent, but just as in your example, the indentation
applies to the first line in the cell. All wrapped lines (both in MSIE and in
Firefox) are flush with the left margin of the cell (same left margin as
Title).

I know how to fix this using an extra cell on each row of the table. I'm
hoping to fix this using CSS and the four existing cells per row. Marcelo says
it's easy to do. I need to see an example because all my attempts to interpret
what he said fail.

It's also early in the morning here (5am EDT).

Thanks again.

Ray Shapp

***C:\asterism\styles\basic.css begins on 2nd line below***

@charset "utf-8";
/* CSS Document */
/* By Ray Shapp */

.basic_headline {
color : #000000;
font-family : Arial, sans-serif;
font-size : 1.8em;
font-weight : bold;
}

.basic_issue {
color : #000000;
font-family : Arial, sans-serif;
font-size : .8em;
vertical-align: middle;
line-height: 1.2em;
margin-left: 0%;
margin-right: 0%;
}

.basic_page {
color : #000000;
font-family : Arial, sans-serif;
font-size : .8em;
vertical-align: middle;
line-height: 1.2em;
margin-left: 2%;
margin-right: 0%;
}

.basic_title {
font-family : Arial, sans-serif;
font-size : .8em;
vertical-align: middle;
line-height: 1.2em;
font-weight : bold;
margin-left: 0%;
margin-right: 0%;
}

.basic_author {
color : #000000;
font-family : Arial, sans-serif;
font-size : .8em;
vertical-align: middle;
line-height: 1.2em;
margin-left: 0%;
margin-right: 0%;
}

.basic_subtitle {
color : #dd5622;
font-family : Arial, sans-serif;
font-size : .8em;
font-weight : bold;
margin-left: 2%;
margin-right: 0%;
}

.basic_summary {
color : #000000;
font-family : Arial, sans-serif;
font-size : .8em;
margin-left: 2%;
margin-right: 0%;
}

.basic_leading {
color : #000000;
font-family : Arial, sans-serif;
font-size : .4em;
margin-left: 0%;
margin-right: 0%;
}

.basic_body_text {
color : #000000;
font-family : Arial, sans-serif;
font-size : .8em;
margin-left: 0%;
margin-right: 0%;
}

.basic_nav_text {
color : #000000;
font-family : Arial, sans-serif;
font-size : .8em;
font-weight : bold;
margin-left: 0%;
margin-right: 0%;
}

.basic_prototype {
background-color : #D3D3D3;
border-top : 1px solid #000000;
width : 800px;
color : #000000;
font-family : Arial, sans-serif;
font-size : .8em;
vertical-align: bottom;
font-weight : bold;
padding : 2px 5px;
line-height: 1.2em;
margin-left: 0%;
margin-right: 0%;
}
***CSS style sheet ends on the line above***


***HTML document begins on 2nd line below***

<!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD XHTML 1.0 Transitional//EN"
     "http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml1/DTD/xhtml1-transitional.dtd">

<html xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml">
   <head>
     <meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8" />

     <title>Articles of Enduring Interest</title>
     <link rel="stylesheet" type="text/css" href="../styles/basic.css" />
   </head>

   <body bgcolor="#D3D3D3">
     <!--==== Program: endure.htm,  Author: Ray Shapp  ==========-->

     <table width="800" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" align="center"
border="0" summary="Listing of articles">
       <tr>
         <td align="center" colspan="4"><img src="../gifs/astrline.gif"
width="460" height="42" alt="Drawing of Observatory" /></td>
       </tr>

       <tr>
         <td colspan="4"> </td>
       </tr>

       <tr>
         <td align="center" colspan="4"><font class="basic_headline">Articles
of Enduring Interest</font></td>
       </tr>

       <tr>
         <td colspan="5"> </td>
       </tr>
       <!-- Enter up to three rows of info for each article here -->

       <tr>
         <td width="70"><font class="basic_issue">Sep 2005</font></td>

         <td width="49"><font class="basic_page">Pg 3</font></td>

         <td width="529"><a
href="../newsletter/2005-09.pdf#page=3&view=Fit"><font
class="basic_title">Astronomical Time Scales</font></a></td>

         <td width="159"><font class="basic_author">Lew Thomas</font></td>
       </tr>

       <tr>
         <td colspan="4">
         </td>

         <td><font class="basic_leading"> </font></td>

         <td>
         </td>
       </tr>

       <tr>
         <td width="70">
         </td>

         <td width="49"><font class="basic_page">Pg 4</font></td>

         <td width="529"><a
href="../newsletter/2005-09.pdf#page=4&view=Fit"><font
class="basic_title">Stewart's Skybox</font></a></td>

         <td width="159"><font class="basic_author">Stewart Meyers</font></td>
       </tr>

       <tr>
         <td colspan="2">
         </td>

         <td><font class="basic_subtitle">Deep Impact (Not the
Movie)</font></td>

         <td>
         </td>
       </tr>

       <tr>
         <td colspan="2">
         </td>

         <td><font class="basic_summary">Coverage of the Deep Impact mission as
well as an overview of comets in general.</font></td>

         <td>
         </td>
       </tr>

       <tr>
         <td colspan="4">
         </td>

         <td><font class="basic_leading"> </font></td>

         <td>
         </td>
       </tr>

       <tr>
         <td width="70"><font class="basic_issue">Oct 2005</font></td>

         <td width="49"><font class="basic_page">Pg 4</font></td>

         <td width="529"><a
href="../newsletter/2005-10.pdf#page=4&view=Fit"><font
class="basic_title">Stewart's Skybox</font></a></td>

         <td width="159"><font class="basic_author">Stewart Meyers</font></td>
       </tr>

       <tr>
         <td colspan="2">
         </td>

         <td><font class="basic_subtitle">A Possible 10</font></td>

         <td>
         </td>
       </tr>

       <tr>
         <td colspan="2">
         </td>

         <td><font class="basic_summary">Background on the discovery of the
object that would later be named Eris as well as its impact on the "Pluto as a
planet" debate.</font></td>

         <td>
         </td>
       </tr>

       <tr>
         <td colspan="4">
         </td>

         <td><font class="basic_leading"> </font></td>

         <td>
         </td>
       </tr>

       <tr>
         <td width="70"><font class="basic_issue">Nov 2005</font></td>

         <td width="49"><font class="basic_page">Pg 1</font></td>

         <td width="529"><a
href="../newsletter/2005-11.pdf#page=1&view=Fit"><font
class="basic_title">Old Astrophotographers Never Die... They Just
Redevelop</font></a></td>

         <td width="159"><font class="basic_author">Bonnie B.
Witzgall</font></td>
       </tr>

       <tr>
         <td colspan="4">
         </td>

         <td><font class="basic_leading"> </font></td>

         <td>
         </td>
       </tr>

       <tr>
         <td width="70"><font class="basic_issue">Mar 2006</font></td>

         <td width="49"><font class="basic_page">Pg 6</font></td>

         <td width="529"><a
href="../newsletter/2006-03.pdf#page=6&view=Fit"><font
class="basic_title">A New Look At The Early Universe</font></a></td>

         <td width="159"><font class="basic_author">Lew Thomas</font></td>
       </tr>

       <tr>
         <td colspan="2">
         </td>

         <td><font class="basic_summary">A hypothesis for negative mass moving
backwards along the time line.</font></td>

         <td>
         </td>
       </tr>

       <tr>
         <td colspan="4">
         </td>

         <td><font class="basic_leading"> </font></td>

         <td>
         </td>
       </tr>

       <tr>
         <td width="70"><font class="basic_issue">Aug 2006</font></td>

         <td width="49"><font class="basic_page">Pg 1</font></td>

         <td width="529"><a
href="../newsletter/2006-07.pdf#page=1&view=Fit"><font
class="basic_title">The New Red Spot On Jupiter</font></a></td>

         <td width="159"><font class="basic_author">Clif Ashcraft</font></td>
       </tr>

       <tr>
         <td colspan="4">
         </td>

         <td><font class="basic_leading"> </font></td>

         <td>
         </td>
       </tr>
       <!-- Prototype of three-line entry

       <tr>
               <td width="70"> <font class="basic_issue"> date </font> </td>
           <td width="49"> <font class="basic_page"> Pg # </font> </td>
           <td width="529"> <a
href="../newsletter/2005-09.pdf#page=3&view=Fit"> <font class="basic_title">
Main Title </font> </a> </td>
           <td width="159"> <font class="basic_author"> Author </font> </td>
       </tr>

       <tr>
               <td colspan="2"> </td>
           <td> <font class="basic_subtitle"> Subtitle </font> </td>
           <td> </td>
       </tr>

       <tr>
               <td colspan="2"> </td>
           <td> <font class="basic_summary"> Brief Summary </font> </td>
           <td> </td>
       </tr>

       <tr>
               <td colspan="4"> </td>
           <td> <font class="basic_leading">   </font> </td>
           <td> </td>
       </tr>

       -->
     </table>
     <br />
     <br />


     <table align="center" border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0"
width="600" summary="Selection criteria">
       <tr align="center" valign="middle">
         <td align="left" valign="middle" colspan="4">
           <p align="left"><font class="basic_body_text">Three members of AAI
will act as a selection panel to identify which articles from back issues of
the Asterism will appear on this page. The selection criteria are that each
article should have a sound astronomical basis and be of general interest to
AAI members. More specifically:</font></p>

           <ol>
             <li><font class="basic_body_text">The article should have
primarily scientific content or</font></li>

             <li>The article should give a historical treatment of its subject
or</li>

             <li>The article should be mainly instructional.</li>

             <li style="list-style: none"><br />
              In addition:<br />
             <br />
             </li>

             <li>Articles which serve mainly to express an author's opinion
will not be selected.</li>

             <li>Articles which are of an ephemeral nature will not be
selected.</li>
           </ol>
           The intent is to make it easy for users of the website to find
articles that would still be considered to be of value say ten years from
now.<br />
           <br />
           <br />
         </td>
       </tr>
     </table>

     <table align="center" border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0"
width="800" summary="Navigation links">
       <tr>
         <td align="center"><a href="ltrmenu.htm"><img
src="../gifs/orangbl1.gif" border="0" alt="Bullet" /> <font
class="basic_nav_text">Return to Newsletter menu</font></a></td>
       </tr>

       <tr>
         <td>
           <center>
             <a href="../aaihome.htm"><img src="../gifs/orangbl1.gif"
border="0" alt="Bullet" /> <font class="basic_nav_text">Return to
Home</font></a>
           </center>
         </td>
       </tr>

       <tr>
         <td> </td>
       </tr>

       <tr>
         <td align="center"><font face="Arial,Helvetica" color="#000000"
size="2">Maintained by <script type="text/javascript">
//<![CDATA[
<!--
document.write("<a
href='mailto:ray@asteris
\
9;.org'>
Ray Shapp<\/a>")
// -->
//]]>
         </script><br />
          Page last updated 05/15/2008</font></td>
       </tr>
     </table>
   </body>
</html>

That's interesting:
"You tried to use a box attribute (margin) in an inline element (font). Try
eliminating the <font> tag entirely and moving the "class" to the <td> element."

Is there a comprehensive list somewhere, of block and inline elements and what
attributes apply to each?

Bruce

Hi All,
 
Would display: block; be a solution?

.basic_summary {
display: block;
color : #000000;
font-family : Arial, sans-serif;
font-size : .8em;
margin-left: 2%;
margin-right: 0%;
}
 
Regards,
Hugo





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