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#11082 From: Ron Brown <potrzebie44@...>
Date: Tue Jun 30, 2009 8:23 pm
Subject: Learning from Failure
potrzebie44
Offline Offline
Send Email Send Email
 
The attached photo shows an algae culture we grew from one slant of Chlorella vulgaris that we got from Carolina Biological Supply Company ($9.00 + $30.00 s&H) in one week.  I count that part as a success.  But we tried to flocculate it with lime, and that was a little disappointing.
"Microalgae Harvesting and
Processing: A Literature Review" discusses the use of lime to flocculate algae.  a quick search of the internet confirmed that lime has been used to control algae in ponds.  Well, it was quick, cheap and easy, but it didn't work.  We applied  a pound or two of  lime that was left over from a construction project to about 300 gallons of culture.  I was hoping to be able to scoop up the floc with  a household strainer.  Although there was a fine white precipitate on the bottom, there was no sign of flocculation. 
 
 
---rsb
Ron Brown
30JUNE2009


1 of 1 Photo(s)


#11084 From: Trent Creekmore <trent@...>
Date: Tue Jun 30, 2009 9:49 pm
Subject: Re: Learning from Failure [1 Attachment]
trentcus
Offline Offline
Send Email Send Email
 
That is the problem with "Googleing" things.

While doing this can be a good source of information, if you are doing serious research. It would be best to look for peer reviewed papers to see what their critics say good, or bad about their research when looking at documents like that.



On Tue, Jun 30, 2009 at 3:23 PM, Ron Brown <potrzebie44@...> wrote:
[Attachment(s) from Ron Brown included below]

The attached photo shows an algae culture we grew from one slant of Chlorella vulgaris that we got from Carolina Biological Supply Company ($9.00 + $30.00 s&H) in one week.  I count that part as a success.  But we tried to flocculate it with lime, and that was a little disappointing.
"Microalgae Harvesting and
Processing: A Literature Review" discusses the use of lime to flocculate algae.  a quick search of the internet confirmed that lime has been used to control algae in ponds.  Well, it was quick, cheap and easy, but it didn't work.  We applied  a pound or two of  lime that was left over from a construction project to about 300 gallons of culture.  I was hoping to be able to scoop up the floc with  a household strainer.  Although there was a fine white precipitate on the bottom, there was no sign of flocculation. 
 
 
---rsb
Ron Brown
30JUNE2009



#11097 From: Gian Roncolato <alchemirg@...>
Date: Wed Jul 1, 2009 5:48 am
Subject: RE: Learning from Failure [1 Attachment]
toinvest32
Offline Offline
Send Email Send Email
 
Dear Ron,
In the water treatment industries to clarify the water and flocculatind all te suspended solids it is normally used "Aluminum Sulfate" (liquid form about 8% content), can be used fram 10 to 25 grams per cubic meters.
It is not expensive and it work perfectly. It need a "pre-dilution" with water followed by a distribution and good mixture inside the  tank.
Regards
Gianfranco Roncolato
 

To: oil_from_algae@yahoogroups.com
From: potrzebie44@...
Date: Tue, 30 Jun 2009 13:23:21 -0700
Subject: [oil_from_algae] Learning from Failure [1 Attachment]

[Attachment(s) from Ron Brown included below]

The attached photo shows an algae culture we grew from one slant of Chlorella vulgaris that we got from Carolina Biological Supply Company ($9.00 + $30.00 s&H) in one week.  I count that part as a success.  But we tried to flocculate it with lime, and that was a little disappointing.
"Microalgae Harvesting and
Processing: A Literature Review" discusses the use of lime to flocculate algae.  a quick search of the internet confirmed that lime has been used to control algae in ponds.  Well, it was quick, cheap and easy, but it didn't work.  We applied  a pound or two of  lime that was left over from a construction project to about 300 gallons of culture.  I was hoping to be able to scoop up the floc with  a household strainer.  Although there was a fine white precipitate on the bottom, there was no sign of flocculation. 
 
 
---rsb
Ron Brown
30JUNE2009




What can you do with the new Windows Live? Find out

#11098 From: Bobby Yates Emory <liberty1@...>
Date: Wed Jul 1, 2009 6:27 am
Subject: Re: Learning from Failure
liberty1_27606
Offline Offline
Send Email Send Email
 
Ron and Gianfranco,

I think that is commonly called Alum and is easily available - this is WalMart's listing:

<http://www.walmart.com/search/search-ng.do?search_constraint=0&ic=48_0&search_query=alum&Find.x=11&Find.y=8&Find=Find>

Bobby

2009/7/1 Gian Roncolato <alchemirg@...>


Dear Ron,
In the water treatment industries to clarify the water and flocculatind all te suspended solids it is normally used "Aluminum Sulfate" (liquid form about 8% content), can be used fram 10 to 25 grams per cubic meters.
It is not expensive and it work perfectly. It need a "pre-dilution" with water followed by a distribution and good mixture inside the  tank.
Regards
Gianfranco Roncolato
 


To: oil_from_algae@yahoogroups.com
From: potrzebie44@...
Date: Tue, 30 Jun 2009 13:23:21 -0700
Subject: [oil_from_algae] Learning from Failure [1 Attachment]

[Attachment(s) from Ron Brown included below]

The attached photo shows an algae culture we grew from one slant of Chlorella vulgaris that we got from Carolina Biological Supply Company ($9.00 + $30.00 s&H) in one week.  I count that part as a success.  But we tried to flocculate it with lime, and that was a little disappointing.
"Microalgae Harvesting and
Processing: A Literature Review" discusses the use of lime to flocculate algae.  a quick search of the internet confirmed that lime has been used to control algae in ponds.  Well, it was quick, cheap and easy, but it didn't work.  We applied  a pound or two of  lime that was left over from a construction project to about 300 gallons of culture.  I was hoping to be able to scoop up the floc with  a household strainer.  Although there was a fine white precipitate on the bottom, there was no sign of flocculation. 
 
 
---rsb
Ron Brown
30JUNE2009




What can you do with the new Windows Live? Find out



--
Toward freedom,

Bobby Yates Emory

#11100 From: "lendlabs" <lendlabs@...>
Date: Wed Jul 1, 2009 12:05 pm
Subject: Re: alum???
lendlabs
Offline Offline
Send Email Send Email
 
???Alum (pronounced /ˈæləm/) is both a specific chemical compound and a class of chemical compounds. The specific compound is the hydrated aluminum potassium sulfate with the formula KAl(SO4)2.12H2O. The wider class of compounds known as alums have the related stoichiometry, AB(SO4)2.12H2O.
--- In oil_from_algae@yahoogroups.com, Bobby Yates Emory <liberty1@...> wrote:
>
> Ron and Gianfranco,
>
> I think that is commonly called Alum and is easily available - this is
> WalMart's listing:
>
> <
> http://www.walmart.com/search/search-ng.do?search_constraint=0&ic=48_0&search_query=alum&Find.x=11&Find.y=8&Find=Find
> >
>
> Bobby
>
> 2009/7/1 Gian Roncolato alchemirg@...
>
> >
> >
> > Dear Ron,
> > In the water treatment industries to clarify the water and flocculatind all
> > te suspended solids it is normally used "Aluminum Sulfate" (liquid form
> > about 8% content), can be used fram 10 to 25 grams per cubic meters.
> > It is not expensive and it work perfectly. It need a "pre-dilution" with
> > water followed by a distribution and good mixture inside the tank.
> > Regards
> > Gianfranco Roncolato
> >
> > ------------------------------
> > To: oil_from_algae@yahoogroups.com
> > From: potrzebie44@...
> > Date: Tue, 30 Jun 2009 13:23:21 -0700
> > Subject: [oil_from_algae] Learning from Failure [1 Attachment]
> >
> > [Attachment(s)<http://co119w.col119.mail.live.com/mail/EditMessageLight.aspx?ReadMessageId=fa6d5360-f2a2-4af6-9a38-e81dcc479708&FolderID=00000000-0000-0000-0000-000000000001&CP=-1&n=1316965772&Action=Reply&AllowUnsafe=False#TopText>from Ron Brown included below]
> >
> > The attached photo shows an algae culture we grew from one slant of
> > Chlorella vulgaris that we got from Carolina Biological Supply Company
> > ($9.00 + $30.00 s&H) in one week. I count that part as a success. But we
> > tried to flocculate it with lime, and that was a little disappointing.
> > "Microalgae Harvesting and
> > Processing: A Literature Review" discusses the use of lime to flocculate
> > algae. a quick search of the internet confirmed that lime has been used to
> > control algae in ponds. Well, it was quick, cheap and easy, but it didn't
> > work. We applied a pound or two of lime that was left over from a
> > construction project to about 300 gallons of culture. I was hoping to be
> > able to scoop up the floc with a household strainer. Although there was a
> > fine white precipitate on the bottom, there was no sign of flocculation.
> >
> >
> > ---rsb
> > Ron Brown
> > 30JUNE2009
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------
> > What can you do with the new Windows Live? Find out<http://www.microsoft.com/windows/windowslive/default.aspx>
> >
> >
>
>
>
> --
> Toward freedom,
>
> Bobby Yates Emory
>

#11108 From: Bobby Yates Emory <liberty1@...>
Date: Thu Jul 2, 2009 12:19 am
Subject: Re: Re: alum???
liberty1_27606
Offline Offline
Send Email Send Email
 
Bruce,

Do you think it might work as a flocculant?

I am also considering using it to remove gypsum from drinking water.

Bobby

On Wed, Jul 1, 2009 at 8:05 AM, lendlabs <lendlabs@...> wrote:


???Alum (pronounced /ˈæləm/) is both a specific chemical compound and a class of chemical compounds. The specific compound is the hydrated aluminum potassium sulfate with the formula KAl(SO4)2.12H2O. The wider class of compounds known as alums have the related stoichiometry, AB(SO4)2.12H2O.
--- In oil_from_algae@yahoogroups.com, Bobby Yates Emory <liberty1@...> wrote:
>
> Ron and Gianfranco,
>
> I think that is commonly called Alum and is easily available - this is
> WalMart's listing:
>
> <
> http://www.walmart.com/search/search-ng.do?search_constraint=0&ic=48_0&search_query=alum&Find.x=11&Find.y=8&Find=Find
> >
>
> Bobby
>
> 2009/7/1 Gian Roncolato alchemirg@...
>
> >
> >
> > Dear Ron,
> > In the water treatment industries to clarify the water and flocculatind all
> > te suspended solids it is normally used "Aluminum Sulfate" (liquid form
> > about 8% content), can be used fram 10 to 25 grams per cubic meters.
> > It is not expensive and it work perfectly. It need a "pre-dilution" with
> > water followed by a distribution and good mixture inside the tank.
> > Regards
> > Gianfranco Roncolato
> >
> > ------------------------------
> > To: oil_from_algae@yahoogroups.com
> > From: potrzebie44@...
> > Date: Tue, 30 Jun 2009 13:23:21 -0700
> > Subject: [oil_from_algae] Learning from Failure [1 Attachment]
> >
> > [Attachment(s)<http://co119w.col119.mail.live.com/mail/EditMessageLight.aspx?ReadMessageId=fa6d5360-f2a2-4af6-9a38-e81dcc479708&FolderID=00000000-0000-0000-0000-000000000001&CP=-1&n=1316965772&Action=Reply&AllowUnsafe=False#TopText>from Ron Brown included below]
> >
> > The attached photo shows an algae culture we grew from one slant of
> > Chlorella vulgaris that we got from Carolina Biological Supply Company
> > ($9.00 + $30.00 s&H) in one week. I count that part as a success. But we
> > tried to flocculate it with lime, and that was a little disappointing.
> > "Microalgae Harvesting and
> > Processing: A Literature Review" discusses the use of lime to flocculate
> > algae. a quick search of the internet confirmed that lime has been used to
> > control algae in ponds. Well, it was quick, cheap and easy, but it didn't
> > work. We applied a pound or two of lime that was left over from a
> > construction project to about 300 gallons of culture. I was hoping to be
> > able to scoop up the floc with a household strainer. Although there was a
> > fine white precipitate on the bottom, there was no sign of flocculation.
> >
> >
> > ---rsb
> > Ron Brown
> > 30JUNE2009
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------
> > What can you do with the new Windows Live? Find out<http://www.microsoft.com/windows/windowslive/default.aspx>
> >
> >
>
>
>
> --
> Toward freedom,
>
> Bobby Yates Emory
>




--
Toward freedom,

Bobby Yates Emory

#11109 From: "lendlabs" <lendlabs@...>
Date: Thu Jul 2, 2009 1:31 am
Subject: Re: alum???
lendlabs
Offline Offline
Send Email Send Email
 
Bobby,
I am not sure.. I will think about it over the fourth.. Sure would be
quick to test..Have a great 4th.. See you on the other side ..

Bruce and Eric
--- In oil_from_algae@yahoogroups.com, Bobby Yates Emory <liberty1@...>
wrote:
>
> Bruce,
>
> Do you think it might work as a flocculant?
>
> I am also considering using it to remove gypsum from drinking water.
>
> Bobby
>
> On Wed, Jul 1, 2009 at 8:05 AM, lendlabs lendlabs@... wrote:
>
> >
> >
> > ???*Alum* (pronounced
/ˈæləm/<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:IPA_for_Englis\
h
>)
> > is both a specific chemical
compound<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chemical_compound>and a class of
chemical compounds. The specific compound is the hydrated
> > aluminum potassium sulfate with the
formula<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chemical_formula>KAl(SO
> > 4)2.12H2O. The wider class of compounds known as alums have the
related
> > stoichiometry <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stoichiometry>,
*AB*(SO4)2.12H
> > 2O.
> > --- In oil_from_algae@yahoogroups.com, Bobby Yates Emory liberty1@
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > Ron and Gianfranco,
> > >
> > > I think that is commonly called Alum and is easily available -
this is
> > > WalMart's listing:
> > >
> > > <
> > >
> >
http://www.walmart.com/search/search-ng.do?search_constraint=0&ic=48_0&s\
earch_query=alum&Find.x=11&Find.y=8&Find=Find

> > > >
> > >
> > > Bobby
> > >
> > > 2009/7/1 Gian Roncolato alchemirg@
> > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Dear Ron,
> > > > In the water treatment industries to clarify the water and
flocculatind
> > all
> > > > te suspended solids it is normally used "Aluminum Sulfate"
(liquid form
> > > > about 8% content), can be used fram 10 to 25 grams per cubic
meters.
> > > > It is not expensive and it work perfectly. It need a
"pre-dilution"
> > with
> > > > water followed by a distribution and good mixture inside the
tank.
> > > > Regards
> > > > Gianfranco Roncolato
> > > >
> > > > ------------------------------
> > > > To: oil_from_algae@yahoogroups.com
> > > > From: potrzebie44@
> > > > Date: Tue, 30 Jun 2009 13:23:21 -0700
> > > > Subject: [oil_from_algae] Learning from Failure [1 Attachment]
> > > >
> > > > [Attachment(s)<
> >
http://co119w.col119.mail.live.com/mail/EditMessageLight.aspx?ReadMessag\
eId=fa6d5360-f2a2-4af6-9a38-e81dcc479708&FolderID=00000000-0000-0000-000\
0-000000000001&CP=-1&n=1316965772&Action=Reply&AllowUnsafe=False#TopText\
>from
> > Ron Brown included below]
> > > >
> > > > The attached photo shows an algae culture we grew from one slant
of
> > > > Chlorella vulgaris that we got from Carolina Biological Supply
Company
> > > > ($9.00 + $30.00 s&H) in one week. I count that part as a
success. But
> > we
> > > > tried to flocculate it with lime, and that was a little
disappointing.
> > > > "Microalgae Harvesting and
> > > > Processing: A Literature Review" discusses the use of lime to
> > flocculate
> > > > algae. a quick search of the internet confirmed that lime has
been used
> > to
> > > > control algae in ponds. Well, it was quick, cheap and easy, but
it
> > didn't
> > > > work. We applied a pound or two of lime that was left over from
a
> > > > construction project to about 300 gallons of culture. I was
hoping to
> > be
> > > > able to scoop up the floc with a household strainer. Although
there was
> > a
> > > > fine white precipitate on the bottom, there was no sign of
> > flocculation.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ---rsb
> > > > Ron Brown
> > > > 30JUNE2009
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ------------------------------
> > > > What can you do with the new Windows Live? Find out<
> > http://www.microsoft.com/windows/windowslive/default.aspx>
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > Toward freedom,
> > >
> > > Bobby Yates Emory
> > >
> >
> >
>
>
>
> --
> Toward freedom,
>
> Bobby Yates Emory
>





#11114 From: Gian Roncolato <alchemirg@...>
Date: Thu Jul 2, 2009 5:29 am
Subject: RE: Re: alum???
toinvest32
Offline Offline
Send Email Send Email
 
Bobby,
for what i know it works only with the suspended solids. Cannot work with the dissolved
elements.
If alum (aluminum sulphate) has too much acidity, you can try with "bentonite", but it is more expensive.
Gianfranco
 

To: oil_from_algae@yahoogroups.com
From: liberty1@...
Date: Wed, 1 Jul 2009 20:19:13 -0400
Subject: Re: [oil_from_algae] Re: alum???



Bruce,

Do you think it might work as a flocculant?

I am also considering using it to remove gypsum from drinking water.

Bobby

On Wed, Jul 1, 2009 at 8:05 AM, lendlabs <lendlabs@yahoo.com> wrote:


???Alum (pronounced /ˈæləm/) is both a specific chemical compound and a class of chemical compounds. The specific compound is the hydrated aluminum potassium sulfate with the formula KAl(SO4)2.12H2O. The wider class of compounds known as alums have the related stoichiometry, AB(SO4)2.12H2O.
--- In oil_from_algae@yahoogroups.com, Bobby Yates Emory <liberty1@...> wrote:
>
> Ron and Gianfranco,
>
> I think that is commonly called Alum and is easily available - this is
> WalMart's listing:
>
> <
> http://www.walmart.com/search/search-ng.do?search_constraint=0&ic=48_0&search_query=alum&Find.x=11&Find.y=8&Find=Find
> >
>
> Bobby
>
> 2009/7/1 Gian Roncolato alchemirg@...
>
> >
> >
> > Dear Ron,
> > In the water treatment industries to clarify the water and flocculatind all
> > te suspended solids it is normally used "Aluminum Sulfate" (liquid form
> > about 8% content), can be used fram 10 to 25 grams per cubic meters.
> > It is not expensive and it work perfectly. It need a "pre-dilution" with
> > water followed by a distribution and good mixture inside the tank.
> > Regards
> > Gianfranco Roncolato
> >
> > ------------------------------
> > To: oil_from_algae@yahoogroups.com
> > From: potrzebie44@...
> > Date: Tue, 30 Jun 2009 13:23:21 -0700
> > Subject: [oil_from_algae] Learning from Failure [1 Attachment]
> >
> > [Attachment(s)<http://co119w.col119.mail.live.com/mail/EditMessageLight.aspx?ReadMessageId=fa6d5360-f2a2-4af6-9a38-e81dcc479708&FolderID=00000000-0000-0000-0000-000000000001&CP=-1&n=1316965772&Action=Reply&AllowUnsafe=False#TopText>from Ron Brown included below]
> >
> > The attached photo shows an algae culture we grew from one slant of
> > Chlorella vulgaris that we got from Carolina Biological Supply Company
> > ($9.00 + $30.00 s&H) in one week. I count that part as a success. But we
> > tried to flocculate it with lime, and that was a little disappointing.
> > "Microalgae Harvesting and
> > Processing: A Literature Review" discusses the use of lime to flocculate
> > algae. a quick search of the internet confirmed that lime has been used to
> > control algae in ponds. Well, it was quick, cheap and easy, but it didn't
> > work. We applied a pound or two of lime that was left over from a
> > construction project to about 300 gallons of culture. I was hoping to be
> > able to scoop up the floc with a household strainer. Although there was a
> > fine white precipitate on the bottom, there was no sign of flocculation.
> >
> >
> > ---rsb
> > Ron Brown
> > 30JUNE2009
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------
> > What can you do with the new Windows Live? Find out<http://www.microsoft.com/windows/windowslive/default.aspx>
> >
> >
>
>
>
> --
> Toward freedom,
>
> Bobby Yates Emory
>




--
Toward freedom,

Bobby Yates Emory



What can you do with the new Windows Live? Find out

#11120 From: "Alex Markin" <anzactwo@...>
Date: Thu Jul 2, 2009 4:08 pm
Subject: Re: Re: alum???
maskedinvestor
Offline Offline
Send Email Send Email
 
See  http://WWW.southshoregunitepools.Com/resources/pdfs/how_alum_works.pdf  Alum works to remove suspended particles, not emulsions.  Does algae stay in suspension when processed? I'd guess filtration (various options depending on porosity of the resulting cake and gunking) would remove most of it. If not I do not see how flocculants would do anything for algae sourced emulsions.
 
I'd guess an emulsion breaker and demulsifiers separating phases is what you are looking for; not flocculants. An example - http://www.champ-tech.com/onec_prod_emul.asp
 
Cheers
Alex
 
PS: In my previous life I was a chemical engineer and have remained heavily involved in the chemical industry world-wide.
 
-------Original Message-------
 
Date: 7/1/2009 7:20:23 PM
Subject: Re: [oil_from_algae] Re: alum???
 

Bruce,

Do you think it might work as a flocculant?

I am also considering using it to remove gypsum from drinking water.

Bobby

On Wed, Jul 1, 2009 at 8:05 AM, lendlabs <lendlabs@yahoo.com> wrote:


???Alum (pronounced /ˈæləm/) is both a specific chemical compound and a class of chemical compounds. The specific compound is the hydrated aluminum potassium sulfate with the formula KAl(SO4)2.12H2O. The wider class of compounds known as alums have the related stoichiometry, AB(SO4)2.12H2O.
--- In oil_from_algae@yahoogroups.com, Bobby Yates Emory <liberty1@...> wrote:
>
> Ron and Gianfranco,
>
> I think that is commonly called Alum and is easily available - this is
> WalMart's listing:
>
> <
> http://www.walmart.com/search/search-ng.do?search_constraint=0&ic=48_0&search_query=alum&Find.x=11&Find.y=8&Find=Find
> >
>
> Bobby
>
> 2009/7/1 Gian Roncolato alchemirg@...
>
> >
> >
> > Dear Ron,
> > In the water treatment industries to clarify the water and flocculatind all
> > te suspended solids it is normally used "Aluminum Sulfate" (liquid form
> > about 8% content), can be used fram 10 to 25 grams per cubic meters.
> > It is not expensive and it work perfectly. It need a "pre-dilution" with
> > water followed by a distribution and good mixture inside the tank.
> > Regards
> > Gianfranco Roncolato
> >
> > ------------------------------
> > To: oil_from_algae@yahoogroups.com
> > From: potrzebie44@...
> > Date: Tue, 30 Jun 2009 13:23:21 -0700
> > Subject: [oil_from_algae] Learning from Failure [1 Attachment]
> >
> > [Attachment(s)<http://co119w.col119.mail.live.com/mail/EditMessageLight.aspx?ReadMessageId=fa6d5360-f2a2-4af6-9a38-e81dcc479708&FolderID=00000000-0000-0000-0000-000000000001&CP=-1&n=1316965772&Action=Reply&AllowUnsafe=False#TopText>from Ron Brown included below]
> >
> > The attached photo shows an algae culture we grew from one slant of
> > Chlorella vulgaris that we got from Carolina Biological Supply Company
> > ($9.00 + $30.00 s&H) in one week. I count that part as a success. But we
> > tried to flocculate it with lime, and that was a little disappointing.
> > "Microalgae Harvesting and
> > Processing: A Literature Review" discusses the use of lime to flocculate
> > algae. a quick search of the internet confirmed that lime has been used to
> > control algae in ponds. Well, it was quick, cheap and easy, but it didn't
> > work. We applied a pound or two of lime that was left over from a
> > construction project to about 300 gallons of culture. I was hoping to be
> > able to scoop up the floc with a household strainer. Although there was a
> > fine white precipitate on the bottom, there was no sign of flocculation.
> >
> >
> > ---rsb
> > Ron Brown
> > 30JUNE2009
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------
> > What can you do with the new Windows Live? Find out<http://www.microsoft.com/windows/windowslive/default.aspx>
> >
> >
>
>
>
> --
> Toward freedom,
>
> Bobby Yates Emory
>




--
Toward freedom,

Bobby Yates Emory

 

#11123 From: Bobby Yates Emory <liberty1@...>
Date: Fri Jul 3, 2009 2:37 am
Subject: Re: Re: alum???
liberty1_27606
Offline Offline
Send Email Send Email
 
Alex,

Reading between the lines, there may be some info here that could help when trying to floc out algae.

Also, it says that alum can give a boost to sand filters.

I still like the idea of froth flotation, but who knows what is going to be cost effective?

Bobby

On Thu, Jul 2, 2009 at 12:08 PM, Alex Markin <anzactwo@...> wrote:


See  http://WWW.southshoregunitepools.Com/resources/pdfs/how_alum_works.pdf  Alum works to remove suspended particles, not emulsions.  Does algae stay in suspension when processed? I'd guess filtration (various options depending on porosity of the resulting cake and gunking) would remove most of it. If not I do not see how flocculants would do anything for algae sourced emulsions.
 
I'd guess an emulsion breaker and demulsifiers separating phases is what you are looking for; not flocculants. An example - http://www.champ-tech.com/onec_prod_emul.asp
 
Cheers
Alex
 
PS: In my previous life I was a chemical engineer and have remained heavily involved in the chemical industry world-wide.
 
-------Original Message-------
 
Date: 7/1/2009 7:20:23 PM
Subject: Re: [oil_from_algae] Re: alum???
 

Bruce,

Do you think it might work as a flocculant?

I am also considering using it to remove gypsum from drinking water.

Bobby

On Wed, Jul 1, 2009 at 8:05 AM, lendlabs <lendlabs@...> wrote:


???Alum (pronounced /ˈæləm/) is both a specific chemical compound and a class of chemical compounds. The specific compound is the hydrated aluminum potassium sulfate with the formula KAl(SO4)2.12H2O. The wider class of compounds known as alums have the related stoichiometry, AB(SO4)2.12H2O.
--- In oil_from_algae@yahoogroups.com, Bobby Yates Emory <liberty1@...> wrote:
>
> Ron and Gianfranco,
>
> I think that is commonly called Alum and is easily available - this is
> WalMart's listing:
>
> <
> http://www.walmart.com/search/search-ng.do?search_constraint=0&ic=48_0&search_query=alum&Find.x=11&Find.y=8&Find=Find
> >
>
> Bobby
>
> 2009/7/1 Gian Roncolato alchemirg@...
>
> >
> >
> > Dear Ron,
> > In the water treatment industries to clarify the water and flocculatind all
> > te suspended solids it is normally used "Aluminum Sulfate" (liquid form
> > about 8% content), can be used fram 10 to 25 grams per cubic meters.
> > It is not expensive and it work perfectly. It need a "pre-dilution" with
> > water followed by a distribution and good mixture inside the tank.
> > Regards
> > Gianfranco Roncolato
> >
> > ------------------------------
> > To: oil_from_algae@yahoogroups.com
> > From: potrzebie44@...
> > Date: Tue, 30 Jun 2009 13:23:21 -0700
> > Subject: [oil_from_algae] Learning from Failure [1 Attachment]
> >
> > [Attachment(s)<http://co119w.col119.mail.live.com/mail/EditMessageLight.aspx?ReadMessageId=fa6d5360-f2a2-4af6-9a38-e81dcc479708&FolderID=00000000-0000-0000-0000-000000000001&CP=-1&n=1316965772&Action=Reply&AllowUnsafe=False#TopText>from Ron Brown included below]
> >
> > The attached photo shows an algae culture we grew from one slant of
> > Chlorella vulgaris that we got from Carolina Biological Supply Company
> > ($9.00 + $30.00 s&H) in one week. I count that part as a success. But we
> > tried to flocculate it with lime, and that was a little disappointing.
> > "Microalgae Harvesting and
> > Processing: A Literature Review" discusses the use of lime to flocculate
> > algae. a quick search of the internet confirmed that lime has been used to
> > control algae in ponds. Well, it was quick, cheap and easy, but it didn't
> > work. We applied a pound or two of lime that was left over from a
> > construction project to about 300 gallons of culture. I was hoping to be
> > able to scoop up the floc with a household strainer. Although there was a
> > fine white precipitate on the bottom, there was no sign of flocculation.
> >
> >
> > ---rsb
> > Ron Brown
> > 30JUNE2009
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------
> > What can you do with the new Windows Live? Find out<http://www.microsoft.com/windows/windowslive/default.aspx>
> >
> >
>
>
>
> --
> Toward freedom,
>
> Bobby Yates Emory
>




--
Toward freedom,

Bobby Yates Emory

 



--
Toward freedom,

Bobby Yates Emory

#11124 From: Probir Das <probir_nus@...>
Date: Fri Jul 3, 2009 4:39 am
Subject: Re: Re: alum???
probir_nus
Online Now Online Now
Send Email Send Email
 
Hi,
At appropriate dosage alum, ferric salts, chitosan..all will work .
I have worked with different strains and all these flocculants worked (>90% sedimented).
However, the main concern would be cost of these flocculants. Flocculation will consume about 200-400gm of flocculant to harvest 1kg of dry biomass, depending on the strains, pH and salinity.1 kg of flocculants may cost 20-50cents.
For energy consumption in different harvesting techniques you can refer the following document:
 

E. Molina Grima, E.-H. B., F.G Acien Fernandez, A. Robles Medina, Yusuf Chisti (2003). "Recovery of microalgal biomass and metabolites:process options and economics." Biotechnology Advances 20: 491-515.

 

 Probir

 

 


From: Bobby Yates Emory <liberty1@...>
To: oil_from_algae@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, 3 July 2009 10:37:58
Subject: Re: [oil_from_algae] Re: alum???

Alex,

Reading between the lines, there may be some info here that could help when trying to floc out algae.

Also, it says that alum can give a boost to sand filters.

I still like the idea of froth flotation, but who knows what is going to be cost effective?

Bobby

On Thu, Jul 2, 2009 at 12:08 PM, Alex Markin <anzactwo@bellsouth. net> wrote:


See  http://WWW.southsho regunitepools. Com/resources/ pdfs/how_ alum_works. pdf  Alum works to remove suspended particles, not emulsions.  Does algae stay in suspension when processed? I'd guess filtration (various options depending on porosity of the resulting cake and gunking) would remove most of it. If not I do not see how flocculants would do anything for algae sourced emulsions.
 
I'd guess an emulsion breaker and demulsifiers separating phases is what you are looking for; not flocculants. An example - http://www.champ- tech.com/ onec_prod_ emul.asp
 
Cheers
Alex
 
PS: In my previous life I was a chemical engineer and have remained heavily involved in the chemical industry world-wide.
 
-------Original Message----- --
 
Date: 7/1/2009 7:20:23 PM
Subject: Re: [oil_from_algae] Re: alum???
 

Bruce,

Do you think it might work as a flocculant?

I am also considering using it to remove gypsum from drinking water.

Bobby

On Wed, Jul 1, 2009 at 8:05 AM, lendlabs <lendlabs@yahoo. com> wrote:


???Alum (pronounced /ˈæləm/) is both a specific chemical compound and a class of chemical compounds. The specific compound is the hydrated aluminum potassium sulfate with the formula KAl(SO4)2.12H2O. The wider class of compounds known as alums have the related stoichiometry, AB(SO4)2.12H2O.
--- In oil_from_algae@ yahoogroups. com, Bobby Yates Emory <liberty1@...> wrote:
>
> Ron and Gianfranco,
>
> I think that is commonly called Alum and is easily available - this is
> WalMart's listing:
>
> <
> http://www.walmart. com/search/ search-ng. do?search_ constraint= 0&ic=48_0&search_query= alum&Find.x=11&Find.y=8&Find=Find
> >
>
> Bobby
>
> 2009/7/1 Gian Roncolato alchemirg@.. .
>
> >
> >
> > Dear Ron,
> > In the water treatment industries to clarify the water and flocculatind all
> > te suspended solids it is normally used "Aluminum Sulfate" (liquid form
> > about 8% content), can be used fram 10 to 25 grams per cubic meters.
> > It is not expensive and it work perfectly. It need a "pre-dilution" with
> > water followed by a distribution and good mixture inside the tank.
> > Regards
> > Gianfranco Roncolato
> >
> > ------------ --------- ---------
> > To: oil_from_algae@ yahoogroups. com
> > From: potrzebie44@ ...
> > Date: Tue, 30 Jun 2009 13:23:21 -0700
> > Subject: [oil_from_algae] Learning from Failure [1 Attachment]
> >
> > [Attachment( s)<http://co119w. col119.mail. live.com/ mail/EditMessage Light.aspx? ReadMessageId= fa6d5360- f2a2-4af6- 9a38-e81dcc47970 8&FolderID=00000000- 0000-0000- 0000-00000000000 1&CP=-1&n=1316965772&Action=Reply&AllowUnsafe= False#TopText>from Ron Brown included below]
> >
> > The attached photo shows an algae culture we grew from one slant of
> > Chlorella vulgaris that we got from Carolina Biological Supply Company
> > ($9.00 + $30.00 s&H) in one week. I count that part as a success. But we
> > tried to flocculate it with lime, and that was a little disappointing.
> > "Microalgae Harvesting and
> > Processing: A Literature Review" discusses the use of lime to flocculate
> > algae. a quick search of the internet confirmed that lime has been used to
> > control algae in ponds. Well, it was quick, cheap and easy, but it didn't
> > work. We applied a pound or two of lime that was left over from a
> > construction project to about 300 gallons of culture. I was hoping to be
> > able to scoop up the floc with a household strainer. Although there was a
> > fine white precipitate on the bottom, there was no sign of flocculation.
> >
> >
> > ---rsb
> > Ron Brown
> > 30JUNE2009
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------ --------- ---------
> > What can you do with the new Windows Live? Find out<http://www.microsof t.com/windows/ windowslive/ default.aspx>
> >
> >
>
>
>
> --
> Toward freedom,
>
> Bobby Yates Emory
>




--
Toward freedom,

Bobby Yates Emory

 



--
Toward freedom,

Bobby Yates Emory


Importing contacts has never been easier..
Bring your friends over to Yahoo! Mail today!

#11145 From: "lendlabs" <lendlabs@...>
Date: Mon Jul 6, 2009 5:53 pm
Subject: Re: alum???
lendlabs
Offline Offline
Send Email Send Email
 
BOBBY,
WE TESTED THE ALUM ON A LARGE VOLUME OVER THE 4TH.. WORKED BUT TOOK A
LOT OF ENERGY TO REMOVE THE MASS .. WATER WAS CLEAR IN THE END..

BRUCE
--- In oil_from_algae@yahoogroups.com, Bobby Yates Emory <liberty1@...>
wrote:
>
> Alex,
>
> Reading between the lines, there may be some info here that could help
when
> trying to floc out algae.
>
> Also, it says that alum can give a boost to sand filters.
>
> I still like the idea of froth flotation, but who knows what is going
to be
> cost effective?
>
> Bobby
>
> On Thu, Jul 2, 2009 at 12:08 PM, Alex Markin anzactwo@... wrote:
>
> >
> >
> > See
> >
http://WWW.southshoregunitepools.Com/resources/pdfs/how_alum_works.pdf
> > Alum works to remove suspended particles, not emulsions. Does algae
stay in
> > suspension when processed? I'd guess filtration (various options
depending
> > on porosity of the resulting cake and gunking) would remove most of
it. If
> > not I do not see how flocculants would do anything for algae sourced
> > emulsions.
> >
> > I'd guess an emulsion breaker and demulsifiers separating phases is
what
> > you are looking for; not flocculants. An example -
> > http://www.champ-tech.com/onec_prod_emul.asp
> >
> > Cheers
> > Alex
> >
> > PS: In my previous life I was a chemical engineer and have remained
heavily
> > involved in the chemical industry world-wide.
> >
> > *-------Original Message-------*
> >
> > *From:* Bobby Yates Emory liberty1@...
> > *Date:* 7/1/2009 7:20:23 PM
> > *To:* oil_from_algae@yahoogroups.com
> > *Subject:* Re: [oil_from_algae] Re: alum???
> >
> >
> > Bruce,
> >
> > Do you think it might work as a flocculant?
> >
> > I am also considering using it to remove gypsum from drinking water.
> >
> > Bobby
> >
> > On Wed, Jul 1, 2009 at 8:05 AM, lendlabs lendlabs@... wrote:
> >
> >
> > ???*Alum* (pronounced
/ˈæləm/<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:IPA_\
for_English
>)
> > is both a specific chemical
compound<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chemical_compound>and a class of
chemical compounds. The specific compound is the hydrated
> > aluminum potassium sulfate with the
formula<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chemical_formula>KAl(SO
> > 4)2.12H2O. The wider class of compounds known as alums have the
related
> > stoichiometry <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stoichiometry>,
*AB*(SO4)2.12H
> > 2O.
> > --- In oil_from_algae@yahoogroups.com, Bobby Yates Emory liberty1@
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > Ron and Gianfranco,
> > >
> > > I think that is commonly called Alum and is easily available -
this is
> > > WalMart's listing:
> > >
> > > <
> > >
> >
http://www.walmart.com/search/search-ng.do?search_constraint=0&ic=48_0&s\
earch_query=alum&Find.x=11&Find.y=8&Find=Find

> > > >
> > >
> > > Bobby
> > >
> > > 2009/7/1 Gian Roncolato alchemirg@
> > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Dear Ron,
> > > > In the water treatment industries to clarify the water and
flocculatind
> > all
> > > > te suspended solids it is normally used "Aluminum Sulfate"
(liquid form
> > > > about 8% content), can be used fram 10 to 25 grams per cubic
meters.
> > > > It is not expensive and it work perfectly. It need a
"pre-dilution"
> > with
> > > > water followed by a distribution and good mixture inside the
tank.
> > > > Regards
> > > > Gianfranco Roncolato
> > > >
> > > > ------------------------------
> > > > To: oil_from_algae@yahoogroups.com
> > > > From: potrzebie44@
> > > > Date: Tue, 30 Jun 2009 13:23:21 -0700
> > > > Subject: [oil_from_algae] Learning from Failure [1 Attachment]
> > > >
> > > > [Attachment(s)<
> >
http://co119w.col119.mail.live.com/mail/EditMessageLight.aspx?ReadMessag\
eId=fa6d5360-f2a2-4af6-9a38-e81dcc479708&FolderID=00000000-0000-0000-000\
0-000000000001&CP=-1&n=1316965772&Action=Reply&AllowUnsafe=False#TopText\
>from
> > Ron Brown included below]
> > > >
> > > > The attached photo shows an algae culture we grew from one slant
of
> > > > Chlorella vulgaris that we got from Carolina Biological Supply
Company
> > > > ($9.00 + $30.00 s&H) in one week. I count that part as a
success. But
> > we
> > > > tried to flocculate it with lime, and that was a little
disappointing.
> > > > "Microalgae Harvesting and
> > > > Processing: A Literature Review" discusses the use of lime to
> > flocculate
> > > > algae. a quick search of the internet confirmed that lime has
been used
> > to
> > > > control algae in ponds. Well, it was quick, cheap and easy, but
it
> > didn't
> > > > work. We applied a pound or two of lime that was left over from
a
> > > > construction project to about 300 gallons of culture. I was
hoping to
> > be
> > > > able to scoop up the floc with a household strainer. Although
there was
> > a
> > > > fine white precipitate on the bottom, there was no sign of
> > flocculation.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ---rsb
> > > > Ron Brown
> > > > 30JUNE2009
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ------------------------------
> > > > What can you do with the new Windows Live? Find out<
> > http://www.microsoft.com/windows/windowslive/default.aspx>
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > Toward freedom,
> > >
> > > Bobby Yates Emory
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Toward freedom,
> >
> > Bobby Yates Emory
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
> --
> Toward freedom,
>
> Bobby Yates Emory
>





#11159 From: Bobby Yates Emory <liberty1@...>
Date: Tue Jul 7, 2009 3:10 am
Subject: Re: Re: alum???
liberty1_27606
Offline Offline
Send Email Send Email
 
Bruce,

Good news.  Now we know one way that works.

Since we only have to remove about 25% of the algae, maybe a little alum would work.  To make it easier to remove the algae, maybe it would work to drain the water (reverse the process).

Thanks,

Bobby

On Mon, Jul 6, 2009 at 1:53 PM, lendlabs <lendlabs@...> wrote:


BOBBY,
WE TESTED THE ALUM ON A LARGE VOLUME OVER THE 4TH.. WORKED BUT TOOK A
LOT OF ENERGY TO REMOVE THE MASS .. WATER WAS CLEAR IN THE END..

BRUCE


--- In oil_from_algae@yahoogroups.com, Bobby Yates Emory <liberty1@...>
wrote:
>
> Alex,
>
> Reading between the lines, there may be some info here that could help
when
> trying to floc out algae.
>
> Also, it says that alum can give a boost to sand filters.
>
> I still like the idea of froth flotation, but who knows what is going
to be
> cost effective?
>
> Bobby
>
> On Thu, Jul 2, 2009 at 12:08 PM, Alex Markin anzactwo@... wrote:
>
> >
> >
> > See
> >
http://WWW.southshoregunitepools.Com/resources/pdfs/how_alum_works.pdf
> > Alum works to remove suspended particles, not emulsions. Does algae
stay in
> > suspension when processed? I'd guess filtration (various options
depending
> > on porosity of the resulting cake and gunking) would remove most of
it. If
> > not I do not see how flocculants would do anything for algae sourced
> > emulsions.
> >
> > I'd guess an emulsion breaker and demulsifiers separating phases is
what
> > you are looking for; not flocculants. An example -
> > http://www.champ-tech.com/onec_prod_emul.asp
> >
> > Cheers
> > Alex
> >
> > PS: In my previous life I was a chemical engineer and have remained
heavily
> > involved in the chemical industry world-wide.
> >
> > *-------Original Message-------*
> >
> > *From:* Bobby Yates Emory liberty1@...
> > *Date:* 7/1/2009 7:20:23 PM

> > *To:* oil_from_algae@yahoogroups.com
> > *Subject:* Re: [oil_from_algae] Re: alum???
> >
> >
> > Bruce,
> >
> > Do you think it might work as a flocculant?
> >
> > I am also considering using it to remove gypsum from drinking water.
> >
> > Bobby
> >
> > On Wed, Jul 1, 2009 at 8:05 AM, lendlabs lendlabs@... wrote:
> >
> >
> > ???*Alum* (pronounced
/ˈæləm/<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:IPA_\
for_English
>)

> > is both a specific chemical
compound<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chemical_compound>and a class of

chemical compounds. The specific compound is the hydrated
> > aluminum potassium sulfate with the
> > 4)2.12H2O. The wider class of compounds known as alums have the
related
> > stoichiometry <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stoichiometry>,
*AB*(SO4)2.12H
> > 2O.
> > --- In oil_from_algae@yahoogroups.com, Bobby Yates Emory liberty1@
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > Ron and Gianfranco,
> > >
> > > I think that is commonly called Alum and is easily available -
this is
> > > WalMart's listing:
> > >
> > > <
> > >
> >
http://www.walmart.com/search/search-ng.do?search_constraint=0&ic=48_0&s\

earch_query=alum&Find.x=11&Find.y=8&Find=Find

> > > >
> > >
> > > Bobby
> > >
> > > 2009/7/1 Gian Roncolato alchemirg@
> > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Dear Ron,
> > > > In the water treatment industries to clarify the water and
flocculatind
> > all
> > > > te suspended solids it is normally used "Aluminum Sulfate"
(liquid form
> > > > about 8% content), can be used fram 10 to 25 grams per cubic
meters.
> > > > It is not expensive and it work perfectly. It need a
"pre-dilution"
> > with
> > > > water followed by a distribution and good mixture inside the
tank.
> > > > Regards
> > > > Gianfranco Roncolato
> > > >
> > > > ------------------------------
> > > > To: oil_from_algae@yahoogroups.com
> > > > From: potrzebie44@
> > > > Date: Tue, 30 Jun 2009 13:23:21 -0700
> > > > Subject: [oil_from_algae] Learning from Failure [1 Attachment]
> > > >
> > > > [Attachment(s)<
> >
http://co119w.col119.mail.live.com/mail/EditMessageLight.aspx?ReadMessag\
eId=fa6d5360-f2a2-4af6-9a38-e81dcc479708&FolderID=00000000-0000-0000-000\

0-000000000001&CP=-1&n=1316965772&Action=Reply&AllowUnsafe=False#TopText\
>from
> > Ron Brown included below]
> > > >
> > > > The attached photo shows an algae culture we grew from one slant
of
> > > > Chlorella vulgaris that we got from Carolina Biological Supply
Company
> > > > ($9.00 + $30.00 s&H) in one week. I count that part as a
success. But
> > we
> > > > tried to flocculate it with lime, and that was a little
disappointing.
> > > > "Microalgae Harvesting and
> > > > Processing: A Literature Review" discusses the use of lime to
> > flocculate
> > > > algae. a quick search of the internet confirmed that lime has
been used
> > to
> > > > control algae in ponds. Well, it was quick, cheap and easy, but
it
> > didn't
> > > > work. We applied a pound or two of lime that was left over from
a
> > > > construction project to about 300 gallons of culture. I was
hoping to
> > be
> > > > able to scoop up the floc with a household strainer. Although
there was
> > a
> > > > fine white precipitate on the bottom, there was no sign of
> > flocculation.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ---rsb
> > > > Ron Brown
> > > > 30JUNE2009
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ------------------------------
> > > > What can you do with the new Windows Live? Find out<
> > http://www.microsoft.com/windows/windowslive/default.aspx>
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > Toward freedom,
> > >
> > > Bobby Yates Emory
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Toward freedom,
> >
> > Bobby Yates Emory
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
> --

> Toward freedom,
>
> Bobby Yates Emory
>




--
Toward freedom,

Bobby Yates Emory

#11126 From: "Alex Markin" <anzactwo@...>
Date: Fri Jul 3, 2009 2:13 pm
Subject: Re: Re: alum???
maskedinvestor
Offline Offline
Send Email Send Email
 
Hi Bobby:
 
Let's get back to the objective of algae processing. Aren't we trying to remove lipids/oils/organics from the mass and then recycle what is left?  Isn't that the ideal?  
 
If so, then the next question is what has to be done to recycle or alternatively use the processed algae as fuel or further fermentation, the latter assuming somewhere down the road cellulosics can be cost-effectively fermented to alcohols.
 
Cheers
Alex
 
-------Original Message-------
 
Date: 7/2/2009 10:03:45 PM
Subject: Re: [oil_from_algae] Re: alum???
 

Alex,

Reading between the lines, there may be some info here that could help when trying to floc out algae.

Also, it says that alum can give a boost to sand filters.

I still like the idea of froth flotation, but who knows what is going to be cost effective?

Bobby

On Thu, Jul 2, 2009 at 12:08 PM, Alex Markin <anzactwo@bellsouth.net> wrote:


See  http://WWW.southshoregunitepools.Com/resources/pdfs/how_alum_works.pdf  Alum works to remove suspended particles, not emulsions.  Does algae stay in suspension when processed? I'd guess filtration (various options depending on porosity of the resulting cake and gunking) would remove most of it. If not I do not see how flocculants would do anything for algae sourced emulsions.
 
I'd guess an emulsion breaker and demulsifiers separating phases is what you are looking for; not flocculants. An example - http://www.champ-tech.com/onec_prod_emul.asp
 
Cheers
Alex
 
PS: In my previous life I was a chemical engineer and have remained heavily involved in the chemical industry world-wide.
 
-------Original Message-------
 
Date: 7/1/2009 7:20:23 PM
Subject: Re: [oil_from_algae] Re: alum???
 

Bruce,

Do you think it might work as a flocculant?

I am also considering using it to remove gypsum from drinking water.

Bobby

On Wed, Jul 1, 2009 at 8:05 AM, lendlabs <lendlabs@yahoo.com> wrote:


???Alum (pronounced /ˈæləm/) is both a specific chemical compound and a class of chemical compounds. The specific compound is the hydrated aluminum potassium sulfate with the formula KAl(SO4)2.12H2O. The wider class of compounds known as alums have the related stoichiometry, AB(SO4)2.12H2O.
--- In oil_from_algae@yahoogroups.com, Bobby Yates Emory <liberty1@...> wrote:
>
> Ron and Gianfranco,
>
> I think that is commonly called Alum and is easily available - this is
> WalMart's listing:
>
> <
> http://www.walmart.com/search/search-ng.do?search_constraint=0&ic=48_0&search_query=alum&Find.x=11&Find.y=8&Find=Find
> >
>
> Bobby
>
> 2009/7/1 Gian Roncolato alchemirg@...
>
> >
> >
> > Dear Ron,
> > In the water treatment industries to clarify the water and flocculatind all
> > te suspended solids it is normally used "Aluminum Sulfate" (liquid form
> > about 8% content), can be used fram 10 to 25 grams per cubic meters.
> > It is not expensive and it work perfectly. It need a "pre-dilution" with
> > water followed by a distribution and good mixture inside the tank.
> > Regards
> > Gianfranco Roncolato
> >
> > ------------------------------
> > To: oil_from_algae@yahoogroups.com
> > From: potrzebie44@...
> > Date: Tue, 30 Jun 2009 13:23:21 -0700
> > Subject: [oil_from_algae] Learning from Failure [1 Attachment]
> >
> > [Attachment(s)<http://co119w.col119.mail.live.com/mail/EditMessageLight.aspx?ReadMessageId=fa6d5360-f2a2-4af6-9a38-e81dcc479708&FolderID=00000000-0000-0000-0000-000000000001&CP=-1&n=1316965772&Action=Reply&AllowUnsafe=False#TopText>from Ron Brown included below]
> >
> > The attached photo shows an algae culture we grew from one slant of
> > Chlorella vulgaris that we got from Carolina Biological Supply Company
> > ($9.00 + $30.00 s&H) in one week. I count that part as a success. But we
> > tried to flocculate it with lime, and that was a little disappointing.
> > "Microalgae Harvesting and
> > Processing: A Literature Review" discusses the use of lime to flocculate
> > algae. a quick search of the internet confirmed that lime has been used to
> > control algae in ponds. Well, it was quick, cheap and easy, but it didn't
> > work. We applied a pound or two of lime that was left over from a
> > construction project to about 300 gallons of culture. I was hoping to be
> > able to scoop up the floc with a household strainer. Although there was a
> > fine white precipitate on the bottom, there was no sign of flocculation.
> >
> >
> > ---rsb
> > Ron Brown
> > 30JUNE2009
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------
> > What can you do with the new Windows Live? Find out<http://www.microsoft.com/windows/windowslive/default.aspx>
> >
> >
>
>
>
> --
> Toward freedom,
>
> Bobby Yates Emory
>




--
Toward freedom,

Bobby Yates Emory

 



--
Toward freedom,

Bobby Yates Emory

 

#11128 From: Bobby Yates Emory <liberty1@...>
Date: Sat Jul 4, 2009 3:18 am
Subject: Re: Re: alum???
liberty1_27606
Offline Offline
Send Email Send Email
 
Alex,

First we have to get the algae out of the culture.

Removing lipids is second.

I assume your point was that we should not use a treatment that prevents us from some other processing we would want to do.  A good thought, but we might end up doing it if that is a drastically cheaper process.

It does give another reason for my favorite - Froth flotation.

Until we have run a lost more tests and costed out a lot of techniques, we need to keep our minds open to all possibilities.

Bobby

On Fri, Jul 3, 2009 at 10:13 AM, Alex Markin <anzactwo@...> wrote:


Hi Bobby:
 
Let's get back to the objective of algae processing. Aren't we trying to remove lipids/oils/organics from the mass and then recycle what is left?  Isn't that the ideal?  
 
If so, then the next question is what has to be done to recycle or alternatively use the processed algae as fuel or further fermentation, the latter assuming somewhere down the road cellulosics can be cost-effectively fermented to alcohols.
 
Cheers
Alex
 
-------Original Message-------
 
Date: 7/2/2009 10:03:45 PM
Subject: Re: [oil_from_algae] Re: alum???
 

Alex,

Reading between the lines, there may be some info here that could help when trying to floc out algae.

Also, it says that alum can give a boost to sand filters.

I still like the idea of froth flotation, but who knows what is going to be cost effective?

Bobby

On Thu, Jul 2, 2009 at 12:08 PM, Alex Markin <anzactwo@...> wrote:


See  http://WWW.southshoregunitepools.Com/resources/pdfs/how_alum_works.pdf  Alum works to remove suspended particles, not emulsions.  Does algae stay in suspension when processed? I'd guess filtration (various options depending on porosity of the resulting cake and gunking) would remove most of it. If not I do not see how flocculants would do anything for algae sourced emulsions.
 
I'd guess an emulsion breaker and demulsifiers separating phases is what you are looking for; not flocculants. An example - http://www.champ-tech.com/onec_prod_emul.asp
 
Cheers
Alex
 
PS: In my previous life I was a chemical engineer and have remained heavily involved in the chemical industry world-wide.
 
-------Original Message-------
 
Date: 7/1/2009 7:20:23 PM
Subject: Re: [oil_from_algae] Re: alum???
 

Bruce,

Do you think it might work as a flocculant?

I am also considering using it to remove gypsum from drinking water.

Bobby

On Wed, Jul 1, 2009 at 8:05 AM, lendlabs <lendlabs@...> wrote:


???Alum (pronounced /ˈæləm/) is both a specific chemical compound and a class of chemical compounds. The specific compound is the hydrated aluminum potassium sulfate with the formula KAl(SO4)2.12H2O. The wider class of compounds known as alums have the related stoichiometry, AB(SO4)2.12H2O.
--- In oil_from_algae@yahoogroups.com, Bobby Yates Emory <liberty1@...> wrote:
>
> Ron and Gianfranco,
>
> I think that is commonly called Alum and is easily available - this is
> WalMart's listing:
>
> <
> http://www.walmart.com/search/search-ng.do?search_constraint=0&ic=48_0&search_query=alum&Find.x=11&Find.y=8&Find=Find
> >
>
> Bobby
>
> 2009/7/1 Gian Roncolato alchemirg@...
>
> >
> >
> > Dear Ron,
> > In the water treatment industries to clarify the water and flocculatind all
> > te suspended solids it is normally used "Aluminum Sulfate" (liquid form
> > about 8% content), can be used fram 10 to 25 grams per cubic meters.
> > It is not expensive and it work perfectly. It need a "pre-dilution" with
> > water followed by a distribution and good mixture inside the tank.
> > Regards
> > Gianfranco Roncolato
> >
> > ------------------------------
> > To: oil_from_algae@yahoogroups.com
> > From: potrzebie44@...
> > Date: Tue, 30 Jun 2009 13:23:21 -0700
> > Subject: [oil_from_algae] Learning from Failure [1 Attachment]
> >
> > [Attachment(s)<http://co119w.col119.mail.live.com/mail/EditMessageLight.aspx?ReadMessageId=fa6d5360-f2a2-4af6-9a38-e81dcc479708&FolderID=00000000-0000-0000-0000-000000000001&CP=-1&n=1316965772&Action=Reply&AllowUnsafe=False#TopText>from Ron Brown included below]
> >
> > The attached photo shows an algae culture we grew from one slant of
> > Chlorella vulgaris that we got from Carolina Biological Supply Company
> > ($9.00 + $30.00 s&H) in one week. I count that part as a success. But we
> > tried to flocculate it with lime, and that was a little disappointing.
> > "Microalgae Harvesting and
> > Processing: A Literature Review" discusses the use of lime to flocculate
> > algae. a quick search of the internet confirmed that lime has been used to
> > control algae in ponds. Well, it was quick, cheap and easy, but it didn't
> > work. We applied a pound or two of lime that was left over from a
> > construction project to about 300 gallons of culture. I was hoping to be
> > able to scoop up the floc with a household strainer. Although there was a
> > fine white precipitate on the bottom, there was no sign of flocculation.
> >
> >
> > ---rsb
> > Ron Brown
> > 30JUNE2009
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------
> > What can you do with the new Windows Live? Find out<http://www.microsoft.com/windows/windowslive/default.aspx>
> >
> >
>
>
>
> --
> Toward freedom,
>
> Bobby Yates Emory
>




--
Toward freedom,

Bobby Yates Emory

 



--
Toward freedom,

Bobby Yates Emory

 



--
Toward freedom,

Bobby Yates Emory

#11127 From: Ron Brown <potrzebie44@...>
Date: Fri Jul 3, 2009 9:21 pm
Subject: Re: Re: alum???
potrzebie44
Offline Offline
Send Email Send Email
 


---rsb
Ron Brown
(potrzebie44@...)

--- On Thu, 7/2/09, Probir Das <probir_nus@...> wrote:

From: Probir Das <probir_nus@...>
Subject: Re: [oil_from_algae] Re: alum???
To: oil_from_algae@yahoogroups.com
Date: Thursday, July 2, 2009, 9:39 PM

Hi,
At appropriate dosage alum, ferric salts, chitosan..all will work .
I have worked with different strains and all these flocculants worked (>90% sedimented).
However, the main concern would be cost of these flocculants. Flocculation will consume about 200-400gm of flocculant to harvest 1kg of dry biomass, depending on the strains, pH and salinity.1 kg of flocculants may cost 20-50cents.
For energy consumption in different harvesting techniques you can refer the following document:
 
E. Molina Grima, E.-H. B., F.G Acien Fernandez, A. Robles Medina, Yusuf Chisti (2003). "Recovery of microalgal biomass and metabolites: process options and economics." Biotechnology Advances 20: 491-515.
 
 Probir
 

 




On Thu, Jul 2, 2009 at 12:08 PM, Alex Markin <anzactwo@bellsouth. net> wrote:


>>Alum works to remove suspended particles, not emulsions. 
An algae culture is a colloidal suspension, not an emulsion.
In a colloidal suspension small particles (the algae) are suspended in a liquid.  An emulsion is a mixture of two or more immiscible liquids.  Flocculation is one way to destabilize a colloidal suspension.  The three kinds of emulsion instability are flocculation, creaming, and coalescense.
 
---rsb
Ron Brown
03JULY2009
Does algae stay in suspension when processed? I'd guess filtration (various options depending on porosity of the resulting cake and gunking) would remove most of it. If not I do not see how flocculants would do anything for algae sourced emulsions.
 
I'd guess an emulsion breaker and demulsifiers separating phases is what you are looking for; not flocculants. An example - http://www.champ- tech.com/ onec_prod_ emul.asp
 
Cheers
Alex
 
PS: In my previous life I was a chemical engineer and have remained heavily involved in the chemical industry world-wide.
 
-------Original Message----- --
 
Date: 7/1/2009 7:20:23 PM
Subject: Re: [oil_from_algae] Re: alum???
 
Bruce,

Do you think it might work as a flocculant?

I am also considering using it to remove gypsum from drinking water.

Bobby

On Wed, Jul 1, 2009 at 8:05 AM, lendlabs <lendlabs@yahoo. com> wrote:


???Alum (pronounced /ˈæləm/) is both a specific chemical compound and a class of chemical compounds. The specific compound is the hydrated aluminum potassium sulfate with the formula KAl(SO4)2.12H2O. The wider class of compounds known as alums have the related stoichiometry, AB(SO4)2.12H2O.
--- In oil_from_algae@ yahoogroups. com, Bobby Yates Emory <liberty1@...> wrote:
>
> Ron and Gianfranco,
>
> I think that is commonly called Alum and is easily available - this is
> WalMart's listing:
>
> <
> http://www.walmart. com/search/ search-ng. do?search_ constraint= 0&ic=48_0&search_query= alum&Find.x=11&Find.y=8&Find=Find
> >
>
> Bobby
>
> 2009/7/1 Gian Roncolato alchemirg@.. .
>
> >
> >
> > Dear Ron,
> > In the water treatment industries to clarify the water and flocculatind all
> > te suspended solids it is normally used "Aluminum Sulfate" (liquid form
> > about 8% content), can be used fram 10 to 25 grams per cubic meters.
> > It is not expensive and it work perfectly. It need a "pre-dilution" with
> > water followed by a distribution and good mixture inside the tank.
> > Regards
> > Gianfranco Roncolato
> >
> > ------------ --------- ---------
> > To: oil_from_algae@ yahoogroups. com
> > From: potrzebie44@ ...
> > Date: Tue, 30 Jun 2009 13:23:21 -0700
> > Subject: [oil_from_algae] Learning from Failure [1 Attachment]
> >
> > [Attachment( s)<http://co119w. col119.mail. live.com/ mail/EditMessage Light.aspx? ReadMessageId= fa6d5360- f2a2-4af6- 9a38-e81dcc47970 8&FolderID=00000000- 0000-0000- 0000-00000000000 1&CP=-1&n=1316965772&Action=Reply&AllowUnsafe= False#TopText>from Ron Brown included below]
> >
> > The attached photo shows an algae culture we grew from one slant of
> > Chlorella vulgaris that we got from Carolina Biological Supply Company
> > ($9.00 + $30.00 s&H) in one week. I count that part as a success. But we
> > tried to flocculate it with lime, and that was a little disappointing.
> > "Microalgae Harvesting and
> > Processing: A Literature Review" discusses the use of lime to flocculate
> > algae. a quick search of the internet confirmed that lime has been used to
> > control algae in ponds. Well, it was quick, cheap and easy, but it didn't
> > work. We applied a pound or two of lime that was left over from a
> > construction project to about 300 gallons of culture. I was hoping to be
> > able to scoop up the floc with a household strainer. Although there was a
> > fine white precipitate on the bottom, there was no sign of flocculation.
> >
> >
> > ---rsb
> > Ron Brown
> > 30JUNE2009
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------ --------- ---------
> > What can you do with the new Windows Live? Find out<http://www.microsof t.com/windows/ windowslive/ default.aspx>
> >
> >
>
>
>
> --
> Toward freedom,
>
> Bobby Yates Emory
>



--
Toward freedom,

Bobby Yates Emory
 



--
Toward freedom,

Bobby Yates Emory


Importing contacts has never been easier..
Bring your friends over to Yahoo! Mail today!


#11138 From: "Manfred" <manfred.ruehrig@...>
Date: Mon Jul 6, 2009 8:22 am
Subject: Re: alum???
mruehrig
Offline Offline
Send Email Send Email
 
--- In oil_from_algae@yahoogroups.com, Ron Brown <potrzebie44@...> wrote:
>
>
>
> ---rsb
> Ron Brown
> (potrzebie44@...)
>
> --- On Thu, 7/2/09, Probir Das <probir_nus@...> wrote:
>
>
> From: Probir Das <probir_nus@...>
> Subject: Re: [oil_from_algae] Re: alum???
> To: oil_from_algae@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Thursday, July 2, 2009, 9:39 PM

>
> Hi,
> At appropriate dosage alum, ferric salts, chitosan..all will work .
> I have worked with different strains and all these flocculants worked (>90%
sedimented).
> However, the main concern would be cost of these flocculants. Flocculation
will consume about 200-400gm of flocculant to harvest 1kg of dry biomass,
depending on the strains, pH and salinity.1 kg of flocculants may cost
20-50cents.
> For energy consumption in different harvesting techniques you can refer the
following document:
>  
>
> E. Molina Grima, E.-H. B., F.G Acien Fernandez, A. Robles Medina, Yusuf Chisti
(2003). "Recovery of microalgal biomass and metabolites: process options and
economics." Biotechnology Advances 20: 491-515.
>  
>  Probir
>  
>

What do you guys think about the flocculants remaining in the dry biomass?
Depending on the subsequent process one has in mind (extracting oil, fermenting,
gasification etc.) the high concentration of these flocculant salts (from
Probirs post I conclude that it might be around 16-30%) will certainly have an -
most liekly adverse effect.

Could such an algae dry mass (e.g. after oil extraction) be used as nutrient
which is considered as intersting by-product to make the whole process cost
efficent? What if you want to use the algae as source for other high value
by-products (e.g. extracts for cosmetics etc.)? Also here such a high flocculant
content seems to be a big problem to me.

Manfred




#11139 From: Probir Das <probir_nus@...>
Date: Mon Jul 6, 2009 8:48 am
Subject: Re: Re: alum???
probir_nus
Online Now Online Now
Send Email Send Email
 
Hi Manfred,
In 1 kg of dry biomass you can expect 100-120mg of metal (either Fe or Al).
These metals donot affect much in producing FAME from the dry biomass. Even methane production from sewage grown algae, harvested using flocculant, was not affected. So the left over biomass can be used for methane production.
If the algae has any high value product in it (i.e.,..EPA/DHA/carotenoid....etc) it will be better to extract these at first. This will ultimately lower the biodiesel production cost.
 
Probir

From: Manfred <manfred.ruehrig@...>
To: oil_from_algae@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Monday, 6 July 2009 4:22:43
Subject: [oil_from_algae] Re: alum???

--- In oil_from_algae@ yahoogroups. com, Ron Brown <potrzebie44@ ...> wrote:
>
>
>
> ---rsb
> Ron Brown
> (potrzebie44@ ...)
>
> --- On Thu, 7/2/09, Probir Das <probir_nus@ ...> wrote:
>
>
> From: Probir Das <probir_nus@ ...>
> Subject: Re: [oil_from_algae] Re: alum???
> To: oil_from_algae@ yahoogroups. com
> Date: Thursday, July 2, 2009, 9:39 PM

>
> Hi,
> At appropriate dosage alum, ferric salts, chitosan..all will work .
> I have worked with different strains and all these flocculants worked (>90% sedimented).
> However, the main concern would be cost of these flocculants.  Flocculation will consume about 200-400gm of flocculant to harvest 1kg of dry biomass, depending on the strains, pH and salinity.1 kg of flocculants may cost 20-50cents.
> For energy consumption in different harvesting techniques you can refer the following document:
>  
>
> E. Molina Grima, E.-H. B., F.G Acien Fernandez, A. Robles Medina, Yusuf Chisti (2003). "Recovery of microalgal biomass and metabolites: process options and economics." Biotechnology Advances 20: 491-515.
>  
>  Probir
>  
>

What do you guys think about the flocculants remaining in the dry biomass? Depending on the subsequent process one has in mind (extracting oil, fermenting, gasification etc.) the high concentration of these flocculant salts (from Probirs post I conclude that it might be around 16-30%) will certainly have an - most liekly adverse effect.

Could such an algae dry mass (e.g. after oil extraction) be used as nutrient which is considered as intersting by-product to make the whole process cost efficent? What if you want to use the algae as source for other high value by-products (e.g. extracts for cosmetics etc.)? Also here such a high flocculant content seems to be a big problem to me.

Manfred



New Email names for you!
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#11129 From: "Alex Markin" <anzactwo@...>
Date: Sat Jul 4, 2009 5:51 pm
Subject: Re: Re: alum???
maskedinvestor
Offline Offline
Send Email Send Email
 
Bobby:
 
I can see your point that removing algae first makes it easier to then separate lipids from the aqueous phase.  But what if we are satisfied with say 80% removal of lipids from a mixed media and then recycle that media back to the algae growing units? Am I smoking something illegal by suggesting this? 
 
Intuitively I do prefer froth flotation for what you are suggesting, but at least one source claims it is too costly for now -  http://en.phyco.org/wiki/Harvesting ?  I do not see how unless the objective is to approach 100% separation of all components. Your comment?
 
Conceptually the only important pure product from my perception is the lipids. I am not sure I'd mind if some percent of the lipids cannot be removed in sufficient pure form as long as they can be recycled. Why is that perception faulty?
 
Cheers
Alex
 
-------Original Message-------
 
Date: 7/3/2009 10:20:01 PM
Subject: Re: [oil_from_algae] Re: alum???
 

Alex,

First we have to get the algae out of the culture.

Removing lipids is second.

I assume your point was that we should not use a treatment that prevents us from some other processing we would want to do.  A good thought, but we might end up doing it if that is a drastically cheaper process.

It does give another reason for my favorite - Froth flotation.

Until we have run a lost more tests and costed out a lot of techniques, we need to keep our minds open to all possibilities.

Bobby

On Fri, Jul 3, 2009 at 10:13 AM, Alex Markin <anzactwo@bellsouth.net> wrote:


Hi Bobby:
 
Let's get back to the objective of algae processing. Aren't we trying to remove lipids/oils/organics from the mass and then recycle what is left?  Isn't that the ideal?  
 
If so, then the next question is what has to be done to recycle or alternatively use the processed algae as fuel or further fermentation, the latter assuming somewhere down the road cellulosics can be cost-effectively fermented to alcohols.
 
Cheers
Alex
 
-------Original Message-------
 
Date: 7/2/2009 10:03:45 PM
Subject: Re: [oil_from_algae] Re: alum???
 

Alex,

Reading between the lines, there may be some info here that could help when trying to floc out algae.

Also, it says that alum can give a boost to sand filters.

I still like the idea of froth flotation, but who knows what is going to be cost effective?

Bobby

On Thu, Jul 2, 2009 at 12:08 PM, Alex Markin <anzactwo@bellsouth.net> wrote:


See  http://WWW.southshoregunitepools.Com/resources/pdfs/how_alum_works.pdf  Alum works to remove suspended particles, not emulsions.  Does algae stay in suspension when processed? I'd guess filtration (various options depending on porosity of the resulting cake and gunking) would remove most of it. If not I do not see how flocculants would do anything for algae sourced emulsions.
 
I'd guess an emulsion breaker and demulsifiers separating phases is what you are looking for; not flocculants. An example - http://www.champ-tech.com/onec_prod_emul.asp
 
Cheers
Alex
 
PS: In my previous life I was a chemical engineer and have remained heavily involved in the chemical industry world-wide.
 
-------Original Message-------
 
Date: 7/1/2009 7:20:23 PM
Subject: Re: [oil_from_algae] Re: alum???
 

Bruce,

Do you think it might work as a flocculant?

I am also considering using it to remove gypsum from drinking water.

Bobby

On Wed, Jul 1, 2009 at 8:05 AM, lendlabs <lendlabs@yahoo.com> wrote:


???Alum (pronounced /ˈæləm/) is both a specific chemical compound and a class of chemical compounds. The specific compound is the hydrated aluminum potassium sulfate with the formula KAl(SO4)2.12H2O. The wider class of compounds known as alums have the related stoichiometry, AB(SO4)2.12H2O.
--- In oil_from_algae@yahoogroups.com, Bobby Yates Emory <liberty1@...> wrote:
>
> Ron and Gianfranco,
>
> I think that is commonly called Alum and is easily available - this is
> WalMart's listing:
>
> <
> http://www.walmart.com/search/search-ng.do?search_constraint=0&ic=48_0&search_query=alum&Find.x=11&Find.y=8&Find=Find
> >
>
> Bobby
>
> 2009/7/1 Gian Roncolato alchemirg@...
>
> >
> >
> > Dear Ron,
> > In the water treatment industries to clarify the water and flocculatind all
> > te suspended solids it is normally used "Aluminum Sulfate" (liquid form
> > about 8% content), can be used fram 10 to 25 grams per cubic meters.
> > It is not expensive and it work perfectly. It need a "pre-dilution" with
> > water followed by a distribution and good mixture inside the tank.
> > Regards
> > Gianfranco Roncolato
> >
> > ------------------------------
> > To: oil_from_algae@yahoogroups.com
> > From: potrzebie44@...
> > Date: Tue, 30 Jun 2009 13:23:21 -0700
> > Subject: [oil_from_algae] Learning from Failure [1 Attachment]
> >
> > [Attachment(s)<http://co119w.col119.mail.live.com/mail/EditMessageLight.aspx?ReadMessageId=fa6d5360-f2a2-4af6-9a38-e81dcc479708&FolderID=00000000-0000-0000-0000-000000000001&CP=-1&n=1316965772&Action=Reply&AllowUnsafe=False#TopText>from Ron Brown included below]
> >
> > The attached photo shows an algae culture we grew from one slant of
> > Chlorella vulgaris that we got from Carolina Biological Supply Company
> > ($9.00 + $30.00 s&H) in one week. I count that part as a success. But we
> > tried to flocculate it with lime, and that was a little disappointing.
> > "Microalgae Harvesting and
> > Processing: A Literature Review" discusses the use of lime to flocculate
> > algae. a quick search of the internet confirmed that lime has been used to
> > control algae in ponds. Well, it was quick, cheap and easy, but it didn't
> > work. We applied a pound or two of lime that was left over from a
> > construction project to about 300 gallons of culture. I was hoping to be
> > able to scoop up the floc with a household strainer. Although there was a
> > fine white precipitate on the bottom, there was no sign of flocculation.
> >
> >
> > ---rsb
> > Ron Brown
> > 30JUNE2009
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------
> > What can you do with the new Windows Live? Find out<http://www.microsoft.com/windows/windowslive/default.aspx>
> >
> >
>
>
>
> --
> Toward freedom,
>
> Bobby Yates Emory
>




--
Toward freedom,

Bobby Yates Emory

 



--
Toward freedom,

Bobby Yates Emory

 



--
Toward freedom,

Bobby Yates Emory

 

#11131 From: Bobby Yates Emory <liberty1@...>
Date: Sat Jul 4, 2009 11:06 pm
Subject: Re: Re: alum???
liberty1_27606
Offline Offline
Send Email Send Email
 
Alex,

I feel we should not have any arbitrary standards.  We need to be flexible in the solutions we consider.  If there is a good reason to only remove 80% of the lipids or if it just less costly, let's go for it.

We do not necessarily need 100% separation of components.  More to the point, we only need the froth flotation to remove about 25% of the algae cells from the culture.  Your supposition may be the key to why people think froth flotation is considered expensive.  If someone has to work it really hard to get all the algae out of the culture, the cost may be much higher than trying to get a fraction of the cells out.

I don't feel getting the lipids pure is essential.  There are lots of processes to filter and clarify lipids.  I assume they will be added to the end of our process, if needed.

I fear that Brian may be correct that we can not just dump the algae debris back into the culture and expect the still growing algae cells to be able to break it down and use the nutrients.  That may especially be true with the lipids.  We may have to compost, aerobically digest, or otherwise treat the cell debris and unextracted lipids before we can return them to the culture.

Even if that processing cost more than it is worth, we still may be satisfied with extracting on 80% of the lipids.  For instance, if we sell the cell debris for animal feed, the farmers may want us to leave some of the lipids in the press cake - the animals may need a little fat in their feed.

(Reality note - accepting less than perfect processes is just to get started with.  Once we have a process that allows us to make a profit, we will keep working on each part of it, trying to get closer to perfection.)

Bobby

On Sat, Jul 4, 2009 at 1:51 PM, Alex Markin <anzactwo@...> wrote:


Bobby:
 
I can see your point that removing algae first makes it easier to then separate lipids from the aqueous phase.  But what if we are satisfied with say 80% removal of lipids from a mixed media and then recycle that media back to the algae growing units? Am I smoking something illegal by suggesting this? 
 
Intuitively I do prefer froth flotation for what you are suggesting, but at least one source claims it is too costly for now -  http://en.phyco.org/wiki/Harvesting ?  I do not see how unless the objective is to approach 100% separation of all components. Your comment?
 
Conceptually the only important pure product from my perception is the lipids. I am not sure I'd mind if some percent of the lipids cannot be removed in sufficient pure form as long as they can be recycled. Why is that perception faulty?
 
Cheers
Alex
 
-------Original Message-------
 
Date: 7/3/2009 10:20:01 PM
Subject: Re: [oil_from_algae] Re: alum???
 

Alex,

First we have to get the algae out of the culture.

Removing lipids is second.

I assume your point was that we should not use a treatment that prevents us from some other processing we would want to do.  A good thought, but we might end up doing it if that is a drastically cheaper process.

It does give another reason for my favorite - Froth flotation.

Until we have run a lost more tests and costed out a lot of techniques, we need to keep our minds open to all possibilities.

Bobby

On Fri, Jul 3, 2009 at 10:13 AM, Alex Markin <anzactwo@...> wrote:


Hi Bobby:
 
Let's get back to the objective of algae processing. Aren't we trying to remove lipids/oils/organics from the mass and then recycle what is left?  Isn't that the ideal?  
 
If so, then the next question is what has to be done to recycle or alternatively use the processed algae as fuel or further fermentation, the latter assuming somewhere down the road cellulosics can be cost-effectively fermented to alcohols.
 
Cheers
Alex
 
-------Original Message-------
 
Date: 7/2/2009 10:03:45 PM
Subject: Re: [oil_from_algae] Re: alum???
 

Alex,

Reading between the lines, there may be some info here that could help when trying to floc out algae.

Also, it says that alum can give a boost to sand filters.

I still like the idea of froth flotation, but who knows what is going to be cost effective?

Bobby

On Thu, Jul 2, 2009 at 12:08 PM, Alex Markin <anzactwo@...> wrote:


See  http://WWW.southshoregunitepools.Com/resources/pdfs/how_alum_works.pdf  Alum works to remove suspended particles, not emulsions.  Does algae stay in suspension when processed? I'd guess filtration (various options depending on porosity of the resulting cake and gunking) would remove most of it. If not I do not see how flocculants would do anything for algae sourced emulsions.
 
I'd guess an emulsion breaker and demulsifiers separating phases is what you are looking for; not flocculants. An example - http://www.champ-tech.com/onec_prod_emul.asp
 
Cheers
Alex
 
PS: In my previous life I was a chemical engineer and have remained heavily involved in the chemical industry world-wide.
 
-------Original Message-------
 
Date: 7/1/2009 7:20:23 PM
Subject: Re: [oil_from_algae] Re: alum???
 

Bruce,

Do you think it might work as a flocculant?

I am also considering using it to remove gypsum from drinking water.

Bobby

On Wed, Jul 1, 2009 at 8:05 AM, lendlabs <lendlabs@...> wrote:


???Alum (pronounced /ˈæləm/) is both a specific chemical compound and a class of chemical compounds. The specific compound is the hydrated aluminum potassium sulfate with the formula KAl(SO4)2.12H2O. The wider class of compounds known as alums have the related stoichiometry, AB(SO4)2.12H2O.
--- In oil_from_algae@yahoogroups.com, Bobby Yates Emory <liberty1@...> wrote:
>
> Ron and Gianfranco,
>
> I think that is commonly called Alum and is easily available - this is
> WalMart's listing:
>
> <
> http://www.walmart.com/search/search-ng.do?search_constraint=0&ic=48_0&search_query=alum&Find.x=11&Find.y=8&Find=Find
> >
>
> Bobby
>
> 2009/7/1 Gian Roncolato alchemirg@...
>
> >
> >
> > Dear Ron,
> > In the water treatment industries to clarify the water and flocculatind all
> > te suspended solids it is normally used "Aluminum Sulfate" (liquid form
> > about 8% content), can be used fram 10 to 25 grams per cubic meters.
> > It is not expensive and it work perfectly. It need a "pre-dilution" with
> > water followed by a distribution and good mixture inside the tank.
> > Regards
> > Gianfranco Roncolato
> >
> > ------------------------------
> > To: oil_from_algae@yahoogroups.com
> > From: potrzebie44@...
> > Date: Tue, 30 Jun 2009 13:23:21 -0700
> > Subject: [oil_from_algae] Learning from Failure [1 Attachment]
> >
> > [Attachment(s)<http://co119w.col119.mail.live.com/mail/EditMessageLight.aspx?ReadMessageId=fa6d5360-f2a2-4af6-9a38-e81dcc479708&FolderID=00000000-0000-0000-0000-000000000001&CP=-1&n=1316965772&Action=Reply&AllowUnsafe=False#TopText>from Ron Brown included below]
> >
> > The attached photo shows an algae culture we grew from one slant of
> > Chlorella vulgaris that we got from Carolina Biological Supply Company
> > ($9.00 + $30.00 s&H) in one week. I count that part as a success. But we
> > tried to flocculate it with lime, and that was a little disappointing.
> > "Microalgae Harvesting and
> > Processing: A Literature Review" discusses the use of lime to flocculate
> > algae. a quick search of the internet confirmed that lime has been used to
> > control algae in ponds. Well, it was quick, cheap and easy, but it didn't
> > work. We applied a pound or two of lime that was left over from a
> > construction project to about 300 gallons of culture. I was hoping to be
> > able to scoop up the floc with a household strainer. Although there was a
> > fine white precipitate on the bottom, there was no sign of flocculation.
> >
> >
> > ---rsb
> > Ron Brown
> > 30JUNE2009
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------
> > What can you do with the new Windows Live? Find out<http://www.microsoft.com/windows/windowslive/default.aspx>
> >
> >
>
>
>
> --
> Toward freedom,
>
> Bobby Yates Emory
>




--
Toward freedom,

Bobby Yates Emory

 



--
Toward freedom,

Bobby Yates Emory

 



--
Toward freedom,

Bobby Yates Emory

 



--
Toward freedom,

Bobby Yates Emory

#11130 From: "bhans@..." <bhans@...>
Date: Sat Jul 4, 2009 10:49 pm
Subject: Re: Re: alum???
earthmimic
Offline Offline
Send Email Send Email
 

'But what if we are satisfied with say 80% removal of lipids from a mixed media and then recycle that media back to the algae growing units?'

You will then end up with a build up of 'organic soup' going back into your media. Algae are autotrouphs and thus cannot digest the soup. This will lead up to other organisms to build up because of the food source. This buildup will also lead to the need for extra filtration because 80% x 80% x 80% = buildup.

This is part of the problem that Greenfuels had. They are quoted as saying something like 'we cant harvest fast enough'. What they really ment is that they are building up organics and cant filter them fast enough to keep up the balance in the reactor. It has nothing to do with overproduction and everything to do with filtering and balancing.

Actually this problem has been noted in many of the algal culture literature thruout the years, most notably in PBR's.

Newer water filtering technology using nanotech and high performance materials promises high levels of filtering but this will come at a price.  

Brian
 

From: "Alex Markin" <anzactwo@...>
Sent: Saturday, July 04, 2009 1:53 PM
To: oil_from_algae@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [oil_from_algae] Re: alum???


Bobby:
 
I can see your point that removing algae first makes it easier to then separate lipids from the aqueous phase.  But what if we are satisfied with say 80% removal of lipids from a mixed media and then recycle that media back to the algae growing units? Am I smoking something illegal by suggesting this? 
 
Intuitively I do prefer froth flotation for what you are suggesting, but at least one source claims it is too costly for now -  http://en.phyco.org/wiki/Harvesting ?  I do not see how unless the objective is to approach 100% separation of all components. Your comment?
 
Conceptually the only important pure product from my perception is the lipids. I am not sure I'd mind if some percent of the lipids cannot be removed in sufficient pure form as long as they can be recycled. Why is that perception faulty?
 
Cheers
Alex
 
-------Original Message-------
 
Date: 7/3/2009 10:20:01 PM
Subject: Re: [oil_from_algae] Re: alum???
 

Alex,

First we have to get the algae out of the culture.

Removing lipids is second.

I assume your point was that we should not use a treatment that prevents us from some other processing we would want to do.  A good thought, but we might end up doing it if that is a drastically cheaper process.

It does give another reason for my favorite - Froth flotation.

Until we have run a lost more tests and costed out a lot of techniques, we need to keep our minds open to all possibilities.

Bobby

On Fri, Jul 3, 2009 at 10:13 AM, Alex Markin <anzactwo@bellsouth.net> wrote:


Hi Bobby:
 
Let's get back to the objective of algae processing. Aren't we trying to remove lipids/oils/organics from the mass and then recycle what is left?  Isn't that the ideal?  
 
If so, then the next question is what has to be done to recycle or alternatively use the processed algae as fuel or further fermentation, the latter assuming somewhere down the road cellulosics can be cost-effectively fermented to alcohols.
 
Cheers
Alex
 
-------Original Message-------
 
Date: 7/2/2009 10:03:45 PM
Subject: Re: [oil_from_algae] Re: alum???
 

Alex,

Reading between the lines, there may be some info here that could help when trying to floc out algae.

Also, it says that alum can give a boost to sand filters.

I still like the idea of froth flotation, but who knows what is going to be cost effective?

Bobby

On Thu, Jul 2, 2009 at 12:08 PM, Alex Markin <anzactwo@bellsouth.net> wrote:


See  http://WWW.southshoregunitepools.Com/resources/pdfs/how_alum_works.pdf  Alum works to remove suspended particles, not emulsions.  Does algae stay in suspension when processed? I'd guess filtration (various options depending on porosity of the resulting cake and gunking) would remove most of it. If not I do not see how flocculants would do anything for algae sourced emulsions.
 
I'd guess an emulsion breaker and demulsifiers separating phases is what you are looking for; not flocculants. An example - http://www.champ-tech.com/onec_prod_emul.asp
 
Cheers
Alex
 
PS: In my previous life I was a chemical engineer and have remained heavily involved in the chemical industry world-wide.
 
-------Original Message-------
 
Date: 7/1/2009 7:20:23 PM
Subject: Re: [oil_from_algae] Re: alum???
 

Bruce,

Do you think it might work as a flocculant?

I am also considering using it to remove gypsum from drinking water.

Bobby

On Wed, Jul 1, 2009 at 8:05 AM, lendlabs <lendlabs@yahoo.com> wrote:


???Alum (pronounced /Ë^ælÉ™m/) is both a specific chemical compound and a class of chemical compounds. The specific compound is the hydrated aluminum potassium sulfate with the formula KAl(SO4)2.12H2O. The wider class of compounds known as alums have the related stoichiometry, AB(SO4)2.12H2O.
--- In oil_from_algae@yahoogroups.com, Bobby Yates Emory <liberty1@...> wrote:
>
> Ron and Gianfranco,
>
> I think that is commonly called Alum and is easily available - this is
> WalMart's listing:
>
> <
> http://www.walmart.com/search/search-ng.do?search_constraint=0&ic=48_0&search_query=alum&Find.x=11&Find.y=8&Find=Find
> >
>
> Bobby
>
> 2009/7/1 Gian Roncolato alchemirg@...
>
> >
> >
> > Dear Ron,
> > In the water treatment industries to clarify the water and flocculatind all
> > te suspended solids it is normally used "Aluminum Sulfate" (liquid form
> > about 8% content), can be used fram 10 to 25 grams per cubic meters.
> > It is not expensive and it work perfectly. It need a "pre-dilution" with
> > water followed by a distribution and good mixture inside the tank.
> > Regards
> > Gianfranco Roncolato
> >
> > ------------------------------
> > To: oil_from_algae@yahoogroups.com
> > From: potrzebie44@...
> > Date: Tue, 30 Jun 2009 13:23:21 -0700
> > Subject: [oil_from_algae] Learning from Failure [1 Attachment]
> >
> > [Attachment(s)<http://co119w.col119.mail.live.com/mail/EditMessageLight.aspx?ReadMessageId=fa6d5360-f2a2-4af6-9a38-e81dcc479708&FolderID=00000000-0000-0000-0000-000000000001&CP=-1&n=1316965772&Action=Reply&AllowUnsafe=False#TopText>from Ron Brown included below]
> >
> > The attached photo shows an algae culture we grew from one slant of
> > Chlorella vulgaris that we got from Carolina Biological Supply Company
> > ($9.00 + $30.00 s&H) in one week. I count that part as a success. But we
> > tried to flocculate it with lime, and that was a little disappointing.
> > "Microalgae Harvesting and
> > Processing: A Literature Review" discusses the use of lime to flocculate
> > algae. a quick search of the internet confirmed that lime has been used to
> > control algae in ponds. Well, it was quick, cheap and easy, but it didn't
> > work. We applied a pound or two of lime that was left over from a
> > construction project to about 300 gallons of culture. I was hoping to be
> > able to scoop up the floc with a household strainer. Although there was a
> > fine white precipitate on the bottom, there was no sign of flocculation.
> >
> >
> > ---rsb
> > Ron Brown
> > 30JUNE2009
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------
> > What can you do with the new Windows Live? Find out<http://www.microsoft.com/windows/windowslive/default.aspx>
> >
> >
>
>
>
> --
> Toward freedom,
>
> Bobby Yates Emory
>




--
Toward freedom,

Bobby Yates Emory

 



--
Toward freedom,

Bobby Yates Emory

 



--
Toward freedom,

Bobby Yates Emory

 



#11132 From: "Alex Markin" <anzactwo@...>
Date: Sat Jul 4, 2009 11:11 pm
Subject: Re: Re: alum???
maskedinvestor
Offline Offline
Send Email Send Email
 
Thanks Brian:
 
So basically what you are saying is recycle makes no sense because it becomes uncontrollable for the effective and consistent generation of lipid containing algae. Then what happens if you dump this stuff and accumulate it. Shove it on drying belts and use as direct fuel? Cost penalties? Contamination?  If neither,  for a significantly lower cost you are getting (assuming my figures have any relationship to reality) an 80% yield for significantly lower costs.  
 
Cheers
Alex
 
-------Original Message-------
 
From: bhans@...
Date: 7/4/2009 5:50:09 PM
Subject: Re: [oil_from_algae] Re: alum???
 


'But what if we are satisfied with say 80% removal of lipids from a mixed media and then recycle that media back to the algae growing units?'

You will then end up with a build up of 'organic soup' going back into your media. Algae are autotrouphs and thus cannot digest the soup. This will lead up to other organisms to build up because of the food source. This buildup will also lead to the need for extra filtration because 80% x 80% x 80% = buildup.

This is part of the problem that Greenfuels had. They are quoted as saying something like 'we cant harvest fast enough'. What they really ment is that they are building up organics and cant filter them fast enough to keep up the balance in the reactor. It has nothing to do with overproduction and everything to do with filtering and balancing.

Actually this problem has been noted in many of the algal culture literature thruout the years, most notably in PBR's.

Newer water filtering technology using nanotech and high performance materials promises high levels of filtering but this will come at a price.  

Brian
 


From: "Alex Markin" <anzactwo@bellsouth.net>
Sent: Saturday, July 04, 2009 1:53 PM
To: oil_from_algae@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [oil_from_algae] Re: alum???


Bobby:
 
I can see your point that removing algae first makes it easier to then separate lipids from the aqueous phase.  But what if we are satisfied with say 80% removal of lipids from a mixed media and then recycle that media back to the algae growing units? Am I smoking something illegal by suggesting this? 
 
Intuitively I do prefer froth flotation for what you are suggesting, but at least one source claims it is too costly for now -  http://en.phyco.org/wiki/Harvesting ?  I do not see how unless the objective is to approach 100% separation of all components. Your comment?
 
Conceptually the only important pure product from my perception is the lipids. I am not sure I'd mind if some percent of the lipids cannot be removed in sufficient pure form as long as they can be recycled. Why is that perception faulty?
 
Cheers
Alex
 
-------Original Message-------
 
Date: 7/3/2009 10:20:01 PM
Subject: Re: [oil_from_algae] Re: alum???
 

Alex,

First we have to get the algae out of the culture.

Removing lipids is second.

I assume your point was that we should not use a treatment that prevents us from some other processing we would want to do.  A good thought, but we might end up doing it if that is a drastically cheaper process.

It does give another reason for my favorite - Froth flotation.

Until we have run a lost more tests and costed out a lot of techniques, we need to keep our minds open to all possibilities.

Bobby

On Fri, Jul 3, 2009 at 10:13 AM, Alex Markin <anzactwo@bellsouth.net> wrote:


Hi Bobby:
 
Let's get back to the objective of algae processing. Aren't we trying to remove lipids/oils/organics from the mass and then recycle what is left?  Isn't that the ideal?  
 
If so, then the next question is what has to be done to recycle or alternatively use the processed algae as fuel or further fermentation, the latter assuming somewhere down the road cellulosics can be cost-effectively fermented to alcohols.
 
Cheers
Alex
 
-------Original Message-------
 
Date: 7/2/2009 10:03:45 PM
Subject: Re: [oil_from_algae] Re: alum???
 

Alex,

Reading between the lines, there may be some info here that could help when trying to floc out algae.

Also, it says that alum can give a boost to sand filters.

I still like the idea of froth flotation, but who knows what is going to be cost effective?

Bobby

On Thu, Jul 2, 2009 at 12:08 PM, Alex Markin <anzactwo@bellsouth.net> wrote:


See  http://WWW.southshoregunitepools.Com/resources/pdfs/how_alum_works.pdf  Alum works to remove suspended particles, not emulsions.  Does algae stay in suspension when processed? I'd guess filtration (various options depending on porosity of the resulting cake and gunking) would remove most of it. If not I do not see how flocculants would do anything for algae sourced emulsions.
 
I'd guess an emulsion breaker and demulsifiers separating phases is what you are looking for; not flocculants. An example - http://www.champ-tech.com/onec_prod_emul.asp
 
Cheers
Alex
 
PS: In my previous life I was a chemical engineer and have remained heavily involved in the chemical industry world-wide.
 
-------Original Message-------
 
Date: 7/1/2009 7:20:23 PM
Subject: Re: [oil_from_algae] Re: alum???
 

Bruce,

Do you think it might work as a flocculant?

I am also considering using it to remove gypsum from drinking water.

Bobby

On Wed, Jul 1, 2009 at 8:05 AM, lendlabs <lendlabs@yahoo.com> wrote:


???Alum (pronounced /Ë^ælÉ™m/) is both a specific chemical compound and a class of chemical compounds. The specific compound is the hydrated aluminum potassium sulfate with the formula KAl(SO4)2.12H2O. The wider class of compounds known as alums have the related stoichiometry, AB(SO4)2.12H2O.
--- In oil_from_algae@yahoogroups.com, Bobby Yates Emory <liberty1@...> wrote:
>
> Ron and Gianfranco,
>
> I think that is commonly called Alum and is easily available - this is
> WalMart's listing:
>
> <
> http://www.walmart.com/search/search-ng.do?search_constraint=0&ic=48_0&search_query=alum&Find.x=11&Find.y=8&Find=Find
> >
>
> Bobby
>
> 2009/7/1 Gian Roncolato alchemirg@...
>
> >
> >
> > Dear Ron,
> > In the water treatment industries to clarify the water and flocculatind all
> > te suspended solids it is normally used "Aluminum Sulfate" (liquid form
> > about 8% content), can be used fram 10 to 25 grams per cubic meters.
> > It is not expensive and it work perfectly. It need a "pre-dilution" with
> > water followed by a distribution and good mixture inside the tank.
> > Regards
> > Gianfranco Roncolato
> >
> > ------------------------------
> > To: oil_from_algae@yahoogroups.com
> > From: potrzebie44@...
> > Date: Tue, 30 Jun 2009 13:23:21 -0700
> > Subject: [oil_from_algae] Learning from Failure [1 Attachment]
> >
> > [Attachment(s)<http://co119w.col119.mail.live.com/mail/EditMessageLight.aspx?ReadMessageId=fa6d5360-f2a2-4af6-9a38-e81dcc479708&FolderID=00000000-0000-0000-0000-000000000001&CP=-1&n=1316965772&Action=Reply&AllowUnsafe=False#TopText>from Ron Brown included below]
> >
> > The attached photo shows an algae culture we grew from one slant of
> > Chlorella vulgaris that we got from Carolina Biological Supply Company
> > ($9.00 + $30.00 s&H) in one week. I count that part as a success. But we
> > tried to flocculate it with lime, and that was a little disappointing.
> > "Microalgae Harvesting and
> > Processing: A Literature Review" discusses the use of lime to flocculate
> > algae. a quick search of the internet confirmed that lime has been used to
> > control algae in ponds. Well, it was quick, cheap and easy, but it didn't
> > work. We applied a pound or two of lime that was left over from a
> > construction project to about 300 gallons of culture. I was hoping to be
> > able to scoop up the floc with a household strainer. Although there was a
> > fine white precipitate on the bottom, there was no sign of flocculation.
> >
> >
> > ---rsb
> > Ron Brown
> > 30JUNE2009
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------
> > What can you do with the new Windows Live? Find out<http://www.microsoft.com/windows/windowslive/default.aspx>
> >
> >
>
>
>
> --
> Toward freedom,
>
> Bobby Yates Emory
>




--
Toward freedom,

Bobby Yates Emory

 



--
Toward freedom,

Bobby Yates Emory

 



--
Toward freedom,

Bobby Yates Emory

 


 

#11133 From: "Alex Markin" <anzactwo@...>
Date: Sat Jul 4, 2009 11:15 pm
Subject: Re: Re: alum???
maskedinvestor
Offline Offline
Send Email Send Email
 
This discussion is stimulating. Brian and Bobby, thanks for getting these issues out in the open. Other comments from others? I sense there is a wealth of knowledge among this group's members.  
 
Cheers
Alex
 
-------Original Message-------
 
Date: 7/4/2009 6:07:29 PM
Subject: Re: [oil_from_algae] Re: alum???
 

Alex,

I feel we should not have any arbitrary standards.  We need to be flexible in the solutions we consider.  If there is a good reason to only remove 80% of the lipids or if it just less costly, let's go for it.

We do not necessarily need 100% separation of components.  More to the point, we only need the froth flotation to remove about 25% of the algae cells from the culture.  Your supposition may be the key to why people think froth flotation is considered expensive.  If someone has to work it really hard to get all the algae out of the culture, the cost may be much higher than trying to get a fraction of the cells out.

I don't feel getting the lipids pure is essential.  There are lots of processes to filter and clarify lipids.  I assume they will be added to the end of our process, if needed.

I fear that Brian may be correct that we can not just dump the algae debris back into the culture and expect the still growing algae cells to be able to break it down and use the nutrients.  That may especially be true with the lipids.  We may have to compost, aerobically digest, or otherwise treat the cell debris and unextracted lipids before we can return them to the culture.

Even if that processing cost more than it is worth, we still may be satisfied with extracting on 80% of the lipids.  For instance, if we sell the cell debris for animal feed, the farmers may want us to leave some of the lipids in the press cake - the animals may need a little fat in their feed.

(Reality note - accepting less than perfect processes is just to get started with.  Once we have a process that allows us to make a profit, we will keep working on each part of it, trying to get closer to perfection.)

Bobby

On Sat, Jul 4, 2009 at 1:51 PM, Alex Markin <anzactwo@bellsouth.net> wrote:


Bobby:
 
I can see your point that removing algae first makes it easier to then separate lipids from the aqueous phase.  But what if we are satisfied with say 80% removal of lipids from a mixed media and then recycle that media back to the algae growing units? Am I smoking something illegal by suggesting this? 
 
Intuitively I do prefer froth flotation for what you are suggesting, but at least one source claims it is too costly for now -  http://en.phyco.org/wiki/Harvesting ?  I do not see how unless the objective is to approach 100% separation of all components. Your comment?
 
Conceptually the only important pure product from my perception is the lipids. I am not sure I'd mind if some percent of the lipids cannot be removed in sufficient pure form as long as they can be recycled. Why is that perception faulty?
 
Cheers
Alex
 
-------Original Message-------
 
Date: 7/3/2009 10:20:01 PM
Subject: Re: [oil_from_algae] Re: alum???
 

Alex,

First we have to get the algae out of the culture.

Removing lipids is second.

I assume your point was that we should not use a treatment that prevents us from some other processing we would want to do.  A good thought, but we might end up doing it if that is a drastically cheaper process.

It does give another reason for my favorite - Froth flotation.

Until we have run a lost more tests and costed out a lot of techniques, we need to keep our minds open to all possibilities.

Bobby

On Fri, Jul 3, 2009 at 10:13 AM, Alex Markin <anzactwo@bellsouth.net> wrote:


Hi Bobby:
 
Let's get back to the objective of algae processing. Aren't we trying to remove lipids/oils/organics from the mass and then recycle what is left?  Isn't that the ideal?  
 
If so, then the next question is what has to be done to recycle or alternatively use the processed algae as fuel or further fermentation, the latter assuming somewhere down the road cellulosics can be cost-effectively fermented to alcohols.
 
Cheers
Alex
 
-------Original Message-------
 
Date: 7/2/2009 10:03:45 PM
Subject: Re: [oil_from_algae] Re: alum???
 

Alex,

Reading between the lines, there may be some info here that could help when trying to floc out algae.

Also, it says that alum can give a boost to sand filters.

I still like the idea of froth flotation, but who knows what is going to be cost effective?

Bobby

On Thu, Jul 2, 2009 at 12:08 PM, Alex Markin <anzactwo@bellsouth.net> wrote:


See  http://WWW.southshoregunitepools.Com/resources/pdfs/how_alum_works.pdf  Alum works to remove suspended particles, not emulsions.  Does algae stay in suspension when processed? I'd guess filtration (various options depending on porosity of the resulting cake and gunking) would remove most of it. If not I do not see how flocculants would do anything for algae sourced emulsions.
 
I'd guess an emulsion breaker and demulsifiers separating phases is what you are looking for; not flocculants. An example - http://www.champ-tech.com/onec_prod_emul.asp
 
Cheers
Alex
 
PS: In my previous life I was a chemical engineer and have remained heavily involved in the chemical industry world-wide.
 
-------Original Message-------
 
Date: 7/1/2009 7:20:23 PM
Subject: Re: [oil_from_algae] Re: alum???
 

Bruce,

Do you think it might work as a flocculant?

I am also considering using it to remove gypsum from drinking water.

Bobby

On Wed, Jul 1, 2009 at 8:05 AM, lendlabs <lendlabs@yahoo.com> wrote:


???Alum (pronounced /ˈæləm/) is both a specific chemical compound and a class of chemical compounds. The specific compound is the hydrated aluminum potassium sulfate with the formula KAl(SO4)2.12H2O. The wider class of compounds known as alums have the related stoichiometry, AB(SO4)2.12H2O.
--- In oil_from_algae@yahoogroups.com, Bobby Yates Emory <liberty1@...> wrote:
>
> Ron and Gianfranco,
>
> I think that is commonly called Alum and is easily available - this is
> WalMart's listing:
>
> <
> http://www.walmart.com/search/search-ng.do?search_constraint=0&ic=48_0&search_query=alum&Find.x=11&Find.y=8&Find=Find
> >
>
> Bobby
>
> 2009/7/1 Gian Roncolato alchemirg@...
>
> >
> >
> > Dear Ron,
> > In the water treatment industries to clarify the water and flocculatind all
> > te suspended solids it is normally used "Aluminum Sulfate" (liquid form
> > about 8% content), can be used fram 10 to 25 grams per cubic meters.
> > It is not expensive and it work perfectly. It need a "pre-dilution" with
> > water followed by a distribution and good mixture inside the tank.
> > Regards
> > Gianfranco Roncolato
> >
> > ------------------------------
> > To: oil_from_algae@yahoogroups.com
> > From: potrzebie44@...
> > Date: Tue, 30 Jun 2009 13:23:21 -0700
> > Subject: [oil_from_algae] Learning from Failure [1 Attachment]
> >
> > [Attachment(s)<http://co119w.col119.mail.live.com/mail/EditMessageLight.aspx?ReadMessageId=fa6d5360-f2a2-4af6-9a38-e81dcc479708&FolderID=00000000-0000-0000-0000-000000000001&CP=-1&n=1316965772&Action=Reply&AllowUnsafe=False#TopText>from Ron Brown included below]
> >
> > The attached photo shows an algae culture we grew from one slant of
> > Chlorella vulgaris that we got from Carolina Biological Supply Company
> > ($9.00 + $30.00 s&H) in one week. I count that part as a success. But we
> > tried to flocculate it with lime, and that was a little disappointing.
> > "Microalgae Harvesting and
> > Processing: A Literature Review" discusses the use of lime to flocculate
> > algae. a quick search of the internet confirmed that lime has been used to
> > control algae in ponds. Well, it was quick, cheap and easy, but it didn't
> > work. We applied a pound or two of lime that was left over from a
> > construction project to about 300 gallons of culture. I was hoping to be
> > able to scoop up the floc with a household strainer. Although there was a
> > fine white precipitate on the bottom, there was no sign of flocculation.
> >
> >
> > ---rsb
> > Ron Brown
> > 30JUNE2009
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------
> > What can you do with the new Windows Live? Find out<http://www.microsoft.com/windows/windowslive/default.aspx>
> >
> >
>
>
>
> --
> Toward freedom,
>
> Bobby Yates Emory
>




--
Toward freedom,

Bobby Yates Emory

 



--
Toward freedom,

Bobby Yates Emory

 



--
Toward freedom,

Bobby Yates Emory

 



--
Toward freedom,

Bobby Yates Emory

 

#11279 From: Ron Brown <potrzebie44@...>
Date: Sun Aug 2, 2009 5:25 pm
Subject: RE: Learning from Failure
potrzebie44
Offline Offline
Send Email Send Email
 


4

--- On Tue, 6/30/09, Gian Roncolato <alchemirg@...> wrote:

From: Gian Roncolato <alchemirg@...>
Subject: RE: [oil_from_algae] Learning from Failure
To: oil_from_algae@yahoogroups.com
Cc: alchemirg@...
Date: Tuesday, June 30, 2009, 10:48 PM

Dear Ron,
In the water treatment industries to clarify the water and flocculatind all te suspended solids it is normally used "Aluminum Sulfate" (liquid form about 8% content), can be used fram 10 to 25 grams per cubic meters.
It is not expensive and it work perfectly. It need a "pre-dilution" with water followed by a distribution and good mixture inside the  tank.
Regards
Gianfranco Roncolato
 

To: oil_from_algae@ yahoogroups. com
From: potrzebie44@ yahoo.com
Date: Tue, 30 Jun 2009 13:23:21 -0700
Subject: [oil_from_algae] Learning from Failure [1 Attachment]

[Attachment(s) from Ron Brown included below]

The attached photo shows an algae culture we grew from one slant of Chlorella vulgaris that we got from Carolina Biological Supply Company ($9.00 + $30.00 s&H) in one week.  I count that part as a success.  But we tried to flocculate it with lime, and that was a little disappointing.
"Microalgae Harvesting and
Processing: A Literature Review" discusses the use of lime to flocculate algae.  a quick search of the internet confirmed that lime has been used to control algae in ponds.  Well, it was quick, cheap and easy, but it didn't work.  We applied  a pound or two of  lime that was left over from a construction project to about 300 gallons of culture.  I was hoping to be able to scoop up the floc with  a household strainer.  Although there was a fine white precipitate on the bottom, there was no sign of flocculation. 
 
 
---rsb
Ron Brown
30JUNE2009


     Gianfranco,
 
     Thank you for a very helpful post.
 
     I was able to get some aluminum



#11280 From: Ron Brown <potrzebie44@...>
Date: Sun Aug 2, 2009 6:10 pm
Subject: RE: Learning from Failure
potrzebie44
Offline Offline
Send Email Send Email
 


--- On Tue, 6/30/09, Gian Roncolato <alchemirg@...> wrote:

From: Gian Roncolato <alchemirg@...>
Subject: RE: [oil_from_algae] Learning from Failure
To: oil_from_algae@yahoogroups.com
Cc: alchemirg@...
Date: Tuesday, June 30, 2009, 10:48 PM

Dear Ron,
In the water treatment industries to clarify the water and flocculatind all te suspended solids it is normally used "Aluminum Sulfate" (liquid form about 8% content), can be used fram 10 to 25 grams per cubic meters.
It is not expensive and it work perfectly. It need a "pre-dilution" with water followed by a distribution and good mixture inside the  tank.
Regards
Gianfranco Roncolato
 
 
 

     Dear Gianfranco,
     Thank you for a very helpful post!
     I was able to get some Aluminum Sulfate, but it was
pharmaceutical grade, and cost $18.49 for 340 grams!  Next time
I'll try for technical grade...  I pre-dissolved 200 grams and applied it to 300 gallons of algae culture.  After circulating for two hours, I moved a coarse kitchen strainer through the culture a couple of times, and  We noticed blinding of the strainer-- to the point that it would hold water.  This was encouraging.  We stopped the circulation for a couple of days,and noticed clumping of floc on the surface of the water.  This was also encouraging.  However, we were expecting the floc to slowly settle to the bottom, and this never happenned.  When we tried to scoop it up through a makeshift  screen made of a nylon stocking, results were less than  satisfactory.  So, already we have progress, but feel that the Aluminum Sulfate  is not adequate by itself as a total harvesting solution.

---rsb
Ron Brown
02AUG2009
 
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