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#219

From: "Dave Winer" <dave@...>
Date: Sun Nov 30, 2003 8:00 pm
Subject: Restarting the list

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I'm doing a lot of work with OPML and want to start discussing it with other

developers.



So this is a heads-up, if you don't want to talk about applications, now is

the time to unsubscribe.



Read more about the charter of this list here.



http://groups.yahoo.com/group/opml-dev/message/197



Please stay on-topic -- applications of OPML only, no debates whether you

like it or not, because that's off-topic.



We're going to try to address as many practical issues as we can in the

coming weeks and months.



Dave

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#220

From: Rogers Cadenhead <rogers@...>
Date: Mon Dec 1, 2003 2:01 pm
Subject: OPML 1.1

rcade

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Glad to see the list firing up again.



One of the first things we should address is the spec, which hasn't

been updated to OPML 1.1, the current version in Radio UserLand.



OPML 1.1 was announced here:



http://www.opml.org/stories/storyReader$11



It adds an optional CLOUD element to the HEAD element of an OPML

file, supporting publish-subscribe notification. The syntax is

borrowed from the same element in RSS:



Publish-Subscribe Notification



<cloud> is a new optional sub-element of <head>. It specifies a Web

service that supports the rssCloud interface which can be implemented

in HTTP-POST, XML-RPC or SOAP 1.1.



Its purpose is to allow processes to register with a cloud to be

notified of updates to the channel. For example:



<cloud domain="data.ourfavoritesongs.com" port="80" path="/RPC2"

registerProcedure="ourFavoriteSongs.rssPleaseNotify"

protocol="xml-rpc"/>



A full explanation of this element and the rssCloud interface is here

[1].



1: http://www.thetwowayweb.com/soapmeetsrss

--

Rogers Cadenhead, rogers@... on 12/01/2003

Weblog: http://www.cadenhead.org/workbench

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#221

From: "Dave Winer" <dave@...>
Date: Tue Dec 2, 2003 7:52 pm
Subject: Re: OPML 1.1

dwiner

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Rogers, thanks for kicking off the restart of this list. And thanks to everyone

else for not objecting to the newly stated charter. I'm optimistic about our

being able to get work done this time around. I'm willing to use the tools that

Yahoo provides to keep the list on-topic. There are over 170 subscribers [1],

which is quite a lot, so it's potentially a very powerful community. My hope is

that we can have something like the Berkman-Thursdays group at Harvard Law

School, where we have a high standard of achievement and cooperation and we get

things done. That group organized a conference and hosted over 200 people on two

days. That's what can be done if people have a will to work together.



Anyway, Rogers, I will take your notes on OPML 1.1 and turn them into a document

on the opml.org website. I'm also going to move that site off the UserLand host

and put it on one of the new servers I have running here in the Boston area.

Also once the OPML 1.1 spec is adequately reviewed, I will transfer it to

Berkman Center, as I did with the RSS 2.0 spec, and redistribute it under the

Creative Commons license.



Another area that needs attention is to sort out the common uses of attributes

in different tools. Since this is XML, names are case-sensitive. And there is

even some variability beyond that. The first step should be to survey all the

existing tools, see what they produce and then collate the results. Then, once

that's done, it may be possible to have a simple set of recommendations that

enables more interop between tools. But first we have to see how far apart all

the tools actually are. I'll get the ball rolling on this, unless someone else

wants to take the lead. It's not a glamorous job, it requires that one be

thorough and be good at tabulating information.



Dave



PS: I've cc'd this to the Berkman-Thursday list, in case any of you want to

participate in the restart of the OPML developers list.



[1] http://groups.yahoo.com/group/opml-dev/



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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#222

From: Morbus Iff <morbus@...>
Date: Tue Dec 2, 2003 8:10 pm
Subject: Re: OPML 1.1

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>Another area that needs attention is to sort out the common uses of

  >attributes in different tools. Since this is XML, names are case-sensitive.

  >And there is even some variability beyond that. The first step should be to

  >survey all the existing tools, see what they produce and then collate the

  >results. Then, once that's done, it may be possible to have a simple set of



Dave: AmphetaDesk was the first application to take the

mySubscriptions.opml of Radio Userland and adopt it for it's own

channel list. NetNewsWire followed thereafter. I haven't been

near AmphetaDesk for a while, but off the top of my head:



   * I hate innerCaps, so I write attributes lowercase. I read both.



   * I believe you had "text=" as the title of the RSS feed. I

     use "title=", but the code converts "text" to "title".



   * Any attributes that AmphetaDesk doesn't explicitly use

     are read and written as if I did. Likewise, I provide

     an API to get at that "unused" data.



More info, including sample OPML output is here:

http://disobey.com/amphetadesk/pod_amphetadesk_mychannels.html



I believe I've added two or three attributes not part

of the original mySubscriptions.opml files I've seen:



   * filename: internal use for AmphetaDesk.

   * date_downloaded and _added. self explanatatory.

   * email: the nearest approximation to the

     channel's email address, if any.





--

Morbus Iff ( i put the demon back in codemonkey )

Culture: http://www.disobey.com/ and http://www.gamegrene.com/

My book, Spidering Hacks: http://amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0596005776/

icq: 2927491 / aim: akaMorbus / yahoo: morbus_iff / jabber.org: morbus

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#231

From: Rogers Cadenhead <rogers@...>
Date: Wed Dec 3, 2003 6:35 pm
Subject: Re: OPML 1.1

rcade

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On Tue, 02 Dec 2003 15:10:11 -0500, Morbus Iff wrote:

> * I believe you had "text=" as the title of the RSS feed. I

> use "title=", but the code converts "text" to "title".



It appears that Radio creates both text and title attributes for RSS

feed titles.

--

Rogers Cadenhead, rogers@... on 12/3/2003

Weblog: http://www.cadenhead.org/workbench

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#224

From: "Stan Krute" <Stan@...>
Date: Tue Dec 2, 2003 8:42 pm
Subject: Re: OPML 1.1

stan_krute

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Hi Dave



> Another area that needs attention is to sort out the

> common uses of attributes in different tools. Since

> this is XML, names are case-sensitive. And there is

> even some variability beyond that. The first step

> should be to survey all the existing tools, see what

> they produce and then collate the results. Then, once

> that's done, it may be possible to have a simple set of

> recommendations that enables more interop between

> tools. But first we have to see how far apart all the

> tools actually are. I'll get the ball rolling on this,

> unless someone else wants to take the lead. It's not a

> glamorous job, it requires that one be

> thorough and be good at tabulating information.



Per an old thread on this list, I started and posted

an OPML document that contains this sort of info. It

still lives at :



http://JavaOutlineEditor.org/OPML/OPML_Elements_and_Attributes.opml



Last revisions to that document

are almost two years old, January of 2002.



I'd be happy to make revisions to that document based on folks

postings here on the list or notes sent to me via email,

whichever is easiest.



Stan

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#235

From: Stan@...
Date: Mon Dec 22, 2003 11:07 pm
Subject: Re: OPML 1.1

stan_krute

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Howdy



I've incorporated the OPML usage info noted

in this thread by:



	 Rogers Cadenhead, Morbus Iff, Brent Simmons,

	 Mark Fletcher, and �yvind Kol�s



... into OPML_Elements_and_Attributes.opml



(which lives here:

	 http://JavaOutlineEditor.org/OPML/OPML_Elements_and_Attributes.opml )



Those folks might want to

take a look to see if I've got things

straight.



Other folks who work on OPML tools: please

post away to this thread RE your OPML usage.

I'll continue to incorporate data posted

to this Yahoo group into the file.



( I have NOT yet added all the new tools,

e.g. agregators et al, that do some OPMLing.

It'll take some time ... )



Plus: expanding the process a bit:



I've opened up a Groove workspace wherein

folks can add to or modify

OPML_Elements_and_Attributes.opml directly

as regards their products' OPMLation.



I'me sending invites to this Groove workspace to

folks who've posted to this Yahoo group about tools

they work on and OPML. If

you don't get an invite, and want to join the

workspace, just drop me a personal email off-group

(Stan@...)and I'll send you an invite.

I'll also be sending invites to other folks who

seem involved in OPML tooldom.



[ If you don't have Groove,

there's a [free for personal use/free for 60 days

of business use] Groove Workspace Preview Edition

downloadable here:  http://www.groove.net/downloads/groove/  ]



The Groove workspace can be particularly useful

for indicating your tools' support of the various

elements, attributes, and types. Takes a load of

detail work off me.



Homage and regards to all OPMLers ....



Stan

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#227

From: Mark Fletcher <markf@...>
Date: Tue Dec 2, 2003 9:13 pm
Subject: Re: OPML 1.1

snoovler

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Dave Winer wrote:

>Another area that needs attention is to sort out the common uses of attributes

in different tools. Since this is XML, names are case-sensitive. And there is

even some variability beyond that. The first step should be to survey all the

existing tools, see what they produce and then collate the results. Then, once

that's done, it may be possible to have a simple set of recommendations that

enables more interop between tools. But first we have to see how far apart all

the tools actually are. I'll get the ball rolling on this, unless someone else

wants to take the lead. It's not a glamorous job, it requires that one be

thorough and be good at tabulating information.

>

>

>

When importing OPML files, here's what Bloglines does:

For every 'outline' tag after the opening tag, we do:

We look for the 'xmlurl' attribute. If we find it, we add that as a

subscription. If we also find a 'title' attribute, we use that for the

name of the subscription.

If we don't find the 'xmlurl' attribute, we look for 'text'. If we don't

find 'text', we look for 'title'. If we find one of those, and we do not

find 'url', we add a new folder. All subscriptions found after this tag

and before the closing </outline> are then inserted in that folder. We

only support one level of folders, so nested folders are ignored (but

the subscriptions within them are not ignored).

We consider all attributes case insensitive.

Here's an example of what we output when exporting subscriptions. This

example has 2 subscriptions in the 'Press/Journalists' folder, and two

subscriptions at the top level:

<?xml version="1.0" encoding="utf-8"?>

<opml version="1.0">

   <head>

     <title>Bloglines Subscriptions</title>

     <dateCreated>Tue, 2 Dec 2003 21:04:44 GMT</dateCreated>

     <ownerEmail>markf@...</ownerEmail>

   </head>

   <body>

     <outline title="Subscriptions">

       <outline title="Press/Journalists">

         <outline title="Wired News" htmlUrl="http://www.wired.com/" type="rss"

xmlUrl="http://www.wired.com/news_drop/netcenter/netcenter.rdf" />

         <outline title="Dan Gillmor's eJournal"

htmlUrl="http://weblog.siliconvalley.com/column/dangillmor/" type="rss"

xmlUrl="http://weblog.siliconvalley.com/column/dangillmor/index.xml" />

       </outline>

       <outline title="Weblogg-ed News" htmlUrl="http://www.weblogg-ed.com/"

type="rss" xmlUrl="http://www.weblogg-ed.com/xml/rss.xml" />

       <outline title="wingedpig.com" htmlUrl="http://www.wingedpig.com/"

type="rss" xmlUrl="http://www.wingedpig.com/index.rdf" />

     </outline>

   </body>

</opml>

Mark

--

Mark Fletcher

Bloglines

http://www.bloglines.com

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#229

From: Jeremy Bowers <jerf@...>
Date: Tue Dec 2, 2003 9:27 pm
Subject: Re: OPML 1.1

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Mark Fletcher wrote:

> We consider all attributes case insensitive.



I think it would be worth having authors catalog what their software

*outputs* as well. It's (somewhat) fine to accept any case tags, but

OPML is specified as XML, so the case should be honored and programs

outputting wrong cases should be considered broken according to the

current spec.



As a soon-to-be producer and consumer of OPML, I have to say this case

insensitivity is disturbing to me; it's not XML. I won't throw a

hissy-fit ;-) but I do think we need to make extra certain that at least

all generators meet the spec.

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#230

From: Jeremy Bowers <jerf@...>
Date: Tue Dec 2, 2003 9:35 pm
Subject: Re: OPML 1.1

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Jeremy Bowers wrote:

> I think it would be worth having authors catalog what their software

> *outputs* as well. It's (somewhat) fine to accept any case tags, but

> OPML is specified as XML, so the case should be honored and programs

> outputting wrong cases should be considered broken according to the

> current spec.



Clarification: By "catalog what their software outputs" I mean actual

specifications and promises, not just example OPML files their system

outputs. Examples aren't specs.

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#223

From: "Dave Winer" <dave@...>
Date: Tue Dec 2, 2003 8:17 pm
Subject: Re: OPML 1.1

dwiner

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Excellent. That's exactly the kind of report we need. Since Brent went next,

maybe he could explain how he uses OPML, in a style similar to this explanation.

Since he's not subscribed to OPML-DEV, I've cc'd him. Dave



   ----- Original Message -----

   From: Morbus Iff

   To: opml-dev@yahoogroups.com ; opml-dev@yahoogroups.com

   Cc: berkman-thursday@yahoogroups.com

   Sent: Tuesday, December 02, 2003 3:10 PM

   Subject: Re: [opml-dev] OPML 1.1





   >Another area that needs attention is to sort out the common uses of

   >attributes in different tools. Since this is XML, names are case-sensitive.

   >And there is even some variability beyond that. The first step should be to

   >survey all the existing tools, see what they produce and then collate the

   >results. Then, once that's done, it may be possible to have a simple set of



   Dave: AmphetaDesk was the first application to take the

   mySubscriptions.opml of Radio Userland and adopt it for it's own

   channel list. NetNewsWire followed thereafter. I haven't been

   near AmphetaDesk for a while, but off the top of my head:



     * I hate innerCaps, so I write attributes lowercase. I read both.



     * I believe you had "text=" as the title of the RSS feed. I

       use "title=", but the code converts "text" to "title".



     * Any attributes that AmphetaDesk doesn't explicitly use

       are read and written as if I did. Likewise, I provide

       an API to get at that "unused" data.



   More info, including sample OPML output is here:

   http://disobey.com/amphetadesk/pod_amphetadesk_mychannels.html



   I believe I've added two or three attributes not part

   of the original mySubscriptions.opml files I've seen:



     * filename: internal use for AmphetaDesk.

     * date_downloaded and _added. self explanatatory.

     * email: the nearest approximation to the

       channel's email address, if any.





   --

   Morbus Iff ( i put the demon back in codemonkey )

   Culture: http://www.disobey.com/ and http://www.gamegrene.com/

   My book, Spidering Hacks: http://amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0596005776/

   icq: 2927491 / aim: akaMorbus / yahoo: morbus_iff / jabber.org: morbus





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#225

From: "Dave Winer" <dave@...>
Date: Tue Dec 2, 2003 8:59 pm
Subject: Re: Re: OPML 1.1

dwiner

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Stan that looks very useful. Could you add Morbus's info to that.



I think people should post their reports to the list, as long as it isn't

overwhelming, and you should merge them into the outline as they become

available.



Also, how about a list of apps you reviewed. Looks like you have "UserLand" and

"JOE." There are now many others, basically all the aggregators do something

with OPML.



Dave





   ----- Original Message -----

   From: Stan Krute

   To: opml-dev@yahoogroups.com

   Sent: Tuesday, December 02, 2003 3:42 PM

   Subject: [opml-dev] Re: OPML 1.1





   Hi Dave



   > Another area that needs attention is to sort out the

   > common uses of attributes in different tools. Since

   > this is XML, names are case-sensitive. And there is

   > even some variability beyond that. The first step

   > should be to survey all the existing tools, see what

   > they produce and then collate the results. Then, once

   > that's done, it may be possible to have a simple set of

   > recommendations that enables more interop between

   > tools. But first we have to see how far apart all the

   > tools actually are. I'll get the ball rolling on this,

   > unless someone else wants to take the lead. It's not a

   > glamorous job, it requires that one be

   > thorough and be good at tabulating information.



   Per an old thread on this list, I started and posted

   an OPML document that contains this sort of info. It

   still lives at :



   http://JavaOutlineEditor.org/OPML/OPML_Elements_and_Attributes.opml



   Last revisions to that document

   are almost two years old, January of 2002.



   I'd be happy to make revisions to that document based on folks

   postings here on the list or notes sent to me via email,

   whichever is easiest.



   Stan





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#228

From: "Stan Krute" <Stan@...>
Date: Tue Dec 2, 2003 9:24 pm
Subject: Re: OPML 1.1

stan_krute

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Hi Dave



> Could you add Morbus's info to that.



Yes.



> I think people should post their reports to the list,

> as long as it isn't overwhelming, and you should merge

> them into the outline as they become available.



Sounds fine. Info on elements and attributes that

are supported or not supported, and elements and attributes

that a particular tool has introduced, are of interest.



> Also, how about a list of apps you reviewed. Looks like

> you have "UserLand" and "JOE." There are now many

> others, basically all the aggregators do something with

> OPML.



As folks supply info on support/non-support, I'll add that

data to particular elements/attributes.



I'll also add new OPML tools to the list at the node

"further info : OPML tools". In that regard, I've

just added a sub-node for RSS feed readers/news aggregators, and will

add info for starters digested from here:



	 http://www.hebig.org/blogs/archives/main/000877.php



Stan

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#226

From: Brent Simmons <brent@...>
Date: Tue Dec 2, 2003 9:08 pm
Subject: Re: OPML 1.1

brentsimmonsx

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NetNewsWire imports and exports OPML subscriptions lists.



It doesn't currently understand nested subscriptions lists, but that

will change. (It will both import and export nested lists.)



***Importing



It tries to be as forgiving as possible in what it accepts. It ignores

case. For the name of a feed it first looks at the text attribute, then

at the title attribute. For the home URL of a feed it looks at htmlUrl

then at url.



If an RSS URL doesn't exist, it does RSS auto-discovery to try to find

the feed. (This makes it possible to import blogrolling.com OPML files,

for instance.)



***Exporting



It exports using ISO-8859 encoding, since that's most likely to be

compatible (with Radio and with Windows aggregators).



It sets the following attributes:



text -- name of feed

title -- name of feed (redundancy for compatibility sake)

description -- description of feed

type -- rss

version -- RSS (more redundancy for compatibility sake)

htmlUrl -- URL of home page

xmlUrl -- URL of feed



***Sample OPML file



http://ranchero.com/downloads/MySubscriptions.opml



-Brent

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#233

From: "Dave Winer" <dave@...>
Date: Wed Dec 3, 2003 9:31 pm
Subject: Re: OPML 1.1

dwiner

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It's true that examples aren't specs, but beggars can't be choosers.



I'll take whatever information I can get in whatever form. Let's be detectives.

I don't recall Columbo or Sherlock Holmes refusing a clue because it wasn't a

spec. ;->



Dave



   ----- Original Message -----

   From: Jeremy Bowers

   To: opml-dev@yahoogroups.com

   Sent: Tuesday, December 02, 2003 4:35 PM

   Subject: Re: [opml-dev] OPML 1.1





   Jeremy Bowers wrote:

   > I think it would be worth having authors catalog what their software

   > *outputs* as well. It's (somewhat) fine to accept any case tags, but

   > OPML is specified as XML, so the case should be honored and programs

   > outputting wrong cases should be considered broken according to the

   > current spec.



   Clarification: By "catalog what their software outputs" I mean actual

   specifications and promises, not just example OPML files their system

   outputs. Examples aren't specs.





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