This group is a backup in case the discussion forum at
www.outlinerrsoftware.com suddenly disappears.  If you are interested in
outliners or PIMs, you should go there.

Staying alive
Just a note to keep this forum alive. This is a "reserve" site just in
case the active forum, www.outlinersoftware.com should go down. Should
that happen, members of that forum can continue here.

Just a note to keep this forum alive.  This is a "reserve" site just
in case the active forum, www.outlinersoftware.com should go down.
Should that happen, members who have registered here can come here to
continue the discussions.

alive!

alive!

Stephen

>This group exists only as a backup.  Should the currently active forum
>disappear for any reason, discussions will continue here.  So,  it is
>OK to join here, but please also join and post messages at the Active
>forum at www.outlinersoftware.com.

It's your call, but I actually find reading mailing list Digests a
heck of a lot easier than any forum software (where you have to keep
dipping in and out of threads). I've been real tempted to drop the
forum from my RSS feeds just because it's so hard to read (not
because of its content).

BTW, thanks to Disney, Grandview's copyright may not expire in our lifetimes.
--

David Dunham     A Sharp, LLC
Voice/Fax: 206 783 7404     http://a-sharp.com
Efficiency is intelligent laziness.

This group exists only as a backup.  Should the currently active forum
disappear for any reason, discussions will continue here.  So,  it is
OK to join here, but please also join and post messages at the Active
forum at www.outlinersoftware.com.

-sc, Group Owner

The posting and downloading of the GrandView program may be illegal.
As group owner, I have asked the poster to provide me with evidence
that either the program's copyright has expired or that he has
permission from both Symantec and the program's author to make the
program available to the public for free.

If I do not receive such evidence by noon EDT on Saturday, March 17, I
shall remove the program.

-Group Owner

H'mmm

It seems to work fine under both win2k and XP.
I did have some problems with Windows 95 but they
vanished under 98. It is running in a dos box,
but I can do anything I need to with it.


Mark Henley


--- In outliners-pims@yahoogroups.com, "stephenzeoli" <szeoli@...> wrote:
>
> GrandView is a DOS-era outliner that many (me included) think was
> the best outliner ever coded for the PC world. Unfortunately,
> Symantec never ported it to Windows and discontinued it about 1994.
>
> Steve Z.
>
> --- In outliners-pims@yahoogroups.com, "brad4804" <brad4804@>
> wrote:
> >
> > What is Grandview?
> >
> > --- In outliners-pims@yahoogroups.com, outliners-
> pims@yahoogroups.com
> > wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > > Hello,
> > >
> > > This email message is a notification to let you know that
> > > a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the outliners-pims
> > > group.
> > >
> > >   File        : /gv2.zip
> > >   Uploaded by : mainecon <mainecon@>
> > >   Description : Grandview 2 (Someone was looking for this)
> > >
> > > You can access this file at the URL:
> > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/outliners-pims/files/gv2.zip
> > >
> > > To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit:
> > > http://help.yahoo.com/help/us/groups/files
> > >
> > > Regards,
> > >
> > > mainecon <mainecon@>
> > >
> >
>

FWIW I'll give you my recent experience (this past week).

I purchased ADM over a week ago - they sent me a receipt for my $129
within seconds.

After waiting three days, I finally emailed them requesting my serial
number so I could unlock the trial edition.

A day later they sent one, but when I tried to use it, the program
said the number was invalid.

Another couple of emails and week later with no response, I canceled
my order and stopped payment on my credit card.

For comparison, check out IdeaMason - a great product and a company
with much better vibes: http://www.ideamason.com/

--- In outliners-pims@yahoogroups.com, "gianariele" <gianariele@...>
wrote:
>
> In the past many people in this group showed interest in the ADM
platform.
>
> For this reason I bring to this group's attention the following
mails.
> Gianni
>
> From: Gianni Meneghini [giannime@...]
> Sent: 04 March 2007 06:52
> To: 'Getting_Things_Done@yahoogroups.com'
> Subject: RE: [GTD] Problems with ADM
>
> After Daly's mail I was expecting some reply from Eric Sommer, who
is
> the ADM CEO and who usually reacted
> promptly to such messages, but no reply came.
> Then I went through the last announcements of the ADM's beta
versions
> and I realized that instead of the
> Eric's usual quotations,
>
> "True development puts first those that  society puts last."
> -Mahatma Gandhi
>
> "Dare to be naive."
> - Buckminster Fuller
>
> "Work for the world."
> - Karl Marx
>
> "A loving heart: In all the world this state of mind is best."
>  - ADM CEO
>
> the closing sentence was:
>
> This email communication was sent on behalf of:
> Eric Sommer
> Suite 21 @1091 Broughton St.
> Vancouver, B.C.  V6G 2A9
> You are receiving this email communication because you or someone
> using your address either submitted an
> online form or autoresponder to either us or one of our associates.
>
>
> If you feel that your receipt of this mailing has been in error...
>  please go to the following url:
> http://rm.inetcomm.us/r.asp?i=8386022-0-563-0-gia-6
>
> To better understand what is going on I went to that link and
> immediately I got the following message:
>
> Your remove request has been processed.
>
> Indeed, I reckon this time Eric Sommer avoids to be naïve.
>
> From my part, a part from crying for the 100 dollars I paid for the
> beta,  I can only reiterate and stress Daly's
> message, at least to warn everybody of the danger.
>
> Gianni
>
> --------------------------
>
> From: Getting_Things_Done@yahoogroups.com
> [mailto:Getting_Things_Done@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
> Daly de Gagne
> Sent: Saturday, February 24, 2007 2:53 PM
> To: Getting Things Done
> Subject: [GTD] Problems with ADM
>
> I feel compelled to write the following, having in past been a
strong
> supporter of ADM, an information
> management program with features I believe make it an ideal GTD
platform.
>
> First of all, I am wondering how many people here use ADM, or have
> considered using it, and
> encountered either good or bad experiences with the company?
>
> ADM4 has been in beta for many months, probably well over a year.
Some
> people, I am told, have paid
> for ADM at the end of the trial period. In essence, they are then
> paying for the right to use a beta
> program.
>
> Some of the people most directly connected with providing input on
ADM
> development from version 2
> onwnard have been removed from the private developer's list. I
myself
> was removed after questioning,
> in private email conversation mind you, the decision by Eric Sommer,
> the ADM CEO, to moderate the
> developer's list even though there was virtually no traffic on it,
and
> neither spam nor out-of-control
> members. Eric lives in China now, and said his decision was made
after
> being made aware of the
> benefits of moderating on a tv show.
>
> We have been told the program is being recoded so that it is has a
> more robust data engine. If the
> coding is done well, and a decent effort is made to get rid of bugs,
> version 4 could be a great program
> if it is released. Time passing, and little or no communication,
> hardly inspires confidence that the
> program will be released or, at least, released soon.
>
> As I have been on record on this list for recommending ADM, I feel
it
> is an ethical necessity to now go
> on record saying that:
> 1. No one should pay for a program that is still in beta because
then,
> in essence, one is then paying
> for the right to do the company's work at one's own expense.
> 2. I can no longer recommend the program to anyone, in spite of
its
> various merits, because of the
> mercurial nature of decision making and lack of communication at the
> top -- decision-making
> that frankly leaves me with a lack of confidence about the program's
> future.
> 3. Also preventing me from recommending the program is the lack
of
> consistent communication
> from the company on its own list. In the last 18 months or so
members
> had to take Eric to task
> for communication lapses. The list in question had provided Eric and
> ADM with the equivalent
> of hundreds, if not thousands, of volunteer hours of checking build
> after build after build for
> bugs, and making dozens of suggestions that have improved the
program.
> It is with sadness that I write the above, which is, of course, my
own
> opinion based on experience with
> ADM and Eric.
>
> There are alternative programs, such as MyInfo (which I use
> increasingly), UltraRecall, InfoSelect,
> MDE InfoHandler, as well as a myriad of GTD-specific programs that
> have been written about here
> recently.
>
> If I have a reason to regain confidence in ADM and its style of
> customer relations, I will again
> recommend ADM.
>
> Daly
>

In the past many people in this group showed interest in the ADM platform.

For this reason I bring to this group's attention the following mails.
Gianni

From: Gianni Meneghini [giannime@...]
Sent: 04 March 2007 06:52
To: 'Getting_Things_Done@yahoogroups.com'
Subject: RE: [GTD] Problems with ADM

After Daly's mail I was expecting some reply from Eric Sommer, who is
the ADM CEO and who usually reacted
promptly to such messages, but no reply came.
Then I went through the last announcements of the ADM's beta versions
and I realized that instead of the
Eric's usual quotations,

"True development puts first those that  society puts last."
-Mahatma Gandhi

"Dare to be naive."
- Buckminster Fuller

"Work for the world."
- Karl Marx

"A loving heart: In all the world this state of mind is best."
  - ADM CEO

the closing sentence was:

This email communication was sent on behalf of:
Eric Sommer
Suite 21 @1091 Broughton St.
Vancouver, B.C.  V6G 2A9
You are receiving this email communication because you or someone
using your address either submitted an
online form or autoresponder to either us or one of our associates.


If you feel that your receipt of this mailing has been in error...
  please go to the following url:
http://rm.inetcomm.us/r.asp?i=8386022-0-563-0-gia-6

To better understand what is going on I went to that link and
immediately I got the following message:

Your remove request has been processed.

Indeed, I reckon this time Eric Sommer avoids to be naïve.

From my part, a part from crying for the 100 dollars I paid for the
beta,  I can only reiterate and stress Daly's
message, at least to warn everybody of the danger.

Gianni

--------------------------

From: Getting_Things_Done@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:Getting_Things_Done@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
Daly de Gagne
Sent: Saturday, February 24, 2007 2:53 PM
To: Getting Things Done
Subject: [GTD] Problems with ADM

I feel compelled to write the following, having in past been a strong
supporter of ADM, an information
management program with features I believe make it an ideal GTD platform.

First of all, I am wondering how many people here use ADM, or have
considered using it, and
encountered either good or bad experiences with the company?

ADM4 has been in beta for many months, probably well over a year. Some
people, I am told, have paid
for ADM at the end of the trial period. In essence, they are then
paying for the right to use a beta
program.

Some of the people most directly connected with providing input on ADM
development from version 2
onwnard have been removed from the private developer's list. I myself
was removed after questioning,
in private email conversation mind you, the decision by Eric Sommer,
the ADM CEO, to moderate the
developer's list even though there was virtually no traffic on it, and
neither spam nor out-of-control
members. Eric lives in China now, and said his decision was made after
being made aware of the
benefits of moderating on a tv show.

We have been told the program is being recoded so that it is has a
more robust data engine. If the
coding is done well, and a decent effort is made to get rid of bugs,
version 4 could be a great program
if it is released. Time passing, and little or no communication,
hardly inspires confidence that the
program will be released or, at least, released soon.

As I have been on record on this list for recommending ADM, I feel it
is an ethical necessity to now go
on record saying that:
1. No one should pay for a program that is still in beta because then,
in essence, one is then paying
for the right to do the company's work at one's own expense.
2. I can no longer recommend the program to anyone, in spite of its
various merits, because of the
mercurial nature of decision making and lack of communication at the
top -- decision-making
that frankly leaves me with a lack of confidence about the program's
future.
3. Also preventing me from recommending the program is the lack of
consistent communication
from the company on its own list. In the last 18 months or so members
had to take Eric to task
for communication lapses. The list in question had provided Eric and
ADM with the equivalent
of hundreds, if not thousands, of volunteer hours of checking build
after build after build for
bugs, and making dozens of suggestions that have improved the program.
It is with sadness that I write the above, which is, of course, my own
opinion based on experience with
ADM and Eric.

There are alternative programs, such as MyInfo (which I use
increasingly), UltraRecall, InfoSelect,
MDE InfoHandler, as well as a myriad of GTD-specific programs that
have been written about here
recently.

If I have a reason to regain confidence in ADM and its style of
customer relations, I will again
recommend ADM.

Daly

GrandView is a DOS-era outliner that many (me included) think was
the best outliner ever coded for the PC world. Unfortunately,
Symantec never ported it to Windows and discontinued it about 1994.

Steve Z.

--- In outliners-pims@yahoogroups.com, "brad4804" <brad4804@...>
wrote:
>
> What is Grandview?
>
> --- In outliners-pims@yahoogroups.com, outliners-
pims@yahoogroups.com
> wrote:
> >
> >
> > Hello,
> >
> > This email message is a notification to let you know that
> > a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the outliners-pims
> > group.
> >
> >   File        : /gv2.zip
> >   Uploaded by : mainecon <mainecon@>
> >   Description : Grandview 2 (Someone was looking for this)
> >
> > You can access this file at the URL:
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/outliners-pims/files/gv2.zip
> >
> > To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit:
> > http://help.yahoo.com/help/us/groups/files
> >
> > Regards,
> >
> > mainecon <mainecon@>
> >
>

What is Grandview?

--- In outliners-pims@yahoogroups.com, outliners-pims@yahoogroups.com
wrote:
>
>
> Hello,
>
> This email message is a notification to let you know that
> a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the outliners-pims
> group.
>
>   File        : /gv2.zip
>   Uploaded by : mainecon <mainecon@...>
>   Description : Grandview 2 (Someone was looking for this)
>
> You can access this file at the URL:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/outliners-pims/files/gv2.zip
>
> To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit:
> http://help.yahoo.com/help/us/groups/files
>
> Regards,
>
> mainecon <mainecon@...>
>

Hello,

This email message is a notification to let you know that
a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the outliners-pims
group.

   File        : /gv2.zip
   Uploaded by : mainecon <mainecon@...>
   Description : Grandview 2 (Someone was looking for this)

You can access this file at the URL:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/outliners-pims/files/gv2.zip

To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit:
http://help.yahoo.com/help/us/groups/files

Regards,

mainecon <mainecon@...>

Hello,

This email message is a notification to let you know that
a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the outliners-pims
group.

   File        : /GrandView.zip
   Uploaded by : mainecon <mainecon@...>
   Description : Grandview1_1 Complete!

You can access this file at the URL:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/outliners-pims/files/GrandView.zip

To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit:
http://help.yahoo.com/help/us/groups/files

Regards,

mainecon <mainecon@...>

Hello,

I notice that we have a few new members of this group in recent weeks.
I want to say hello and invite you to post here. But I'd also like to
point out a different site called www.outlinersoftware.com (run by
Chris Murtland), where you'll find a generally more extensive and
active discussion of outliners and PIMs.

But, as I said, feel free to post here. You'll get a response, I'm
sure.

Best wishes and happy holidays.

Steve Z.
co-moderator

Hi Folks,

Even being a SAP consultant, I never get around to backing up
seriously my data! Researching for a handy solution to this, found an
online backup service, which is free, automatic, and secure.

Mozy currently offers 2,000MB space free, and according to PCMag is
one of the best backup online service our there, (Mozy won the editors
choice award). I'm using the service for two months now, and I've been
impressed.

So, why I'm writing this?

Mozy offers extra space with referrals; for every person that clicks
on the link below and starts using Mozy service, we'll *both* get
another 256MB of free extra backup space, so, that's 1GB of free space
for every four people! No bad!

So if you're like me, the *regular guy* that perhaps makes a backup
every once in a while, we can both benefit with some more extra space
if you find Mozy useful and decide to sign up.

https://mozy.com/?ref=Q4RE5N

Alternatively, you can my referral code - Q4RE5N - or my email address
- sgrivas@... - during your registration process.

I think the service is great, simple and painless; I'm not aware of
anything comparable out there and is running silently and
automatically in the background so no more backup concerns!!

--
Thanks and Regards,

Stavros Grivas

>  > To me, the screen shot which is clearly pre-Windows XP is a better
>>  clue. But <http://www.visimap.com/us/news.html> tells you the last
>  > release was in 2004.
>
>The "Windows Classic" appearance is available as an option within
>Windows XP. Quite a few users prefer it because it uses less
>resources than the XP appearance.

Fewer pixels, I hadn't heard about resources. But I think it's a bad
idea to take screen shots with anything but the default
configuration. (I've been guilty of this, but over 2 years I would
have fixed it.)

>(Just a point of information. I take it the Mac is your main
>platform.)

True. Which is why I didn't also mention the Microsoft icons looked
rather dated in that screen shot.

If they are in active development, I hope they update the web site to
reflect it.
--

David Dunham     A Sharp, LLC
Voice/Fax: 206 783 7404     http://a-sharp.com
Efficiency is intelligent laziness.

I'm pretty sure when I released Acta (in 1986) it was called an
"outline processor."

These days it looks like the term may have switched, and everyone
calls them "outliner." Except in OPML (Outline Processor Markup
Language).

Is this true? Or is it a personal thing?
--

David Dunham         A Sharp, LLC         +1 206 783 7404
A release candidate of the Opal outliner is now available!
<http://a-sharp.com/opal/>

--- In outliners-pims@yahoogroups.com, David Dunham <david@...> wrote:
>

>
> To me, the screen shot which is clearly pre-Windows XP is a better
> clue. But <http://www.visimap.com/us/news.html> tells you the last
> release was in 2004.
>
The "Windows Classic" appearance is available as an option within
Windows XP. Quite a few users prefer it because it uses less
resources than the XP appearance.

(Just a point of information. I take it the Mac is your main
platform.)

Stephen

>Has anyone had any experience with VisiMap or have any opinions about
>this product. It has decreased its price, making me wonder whether it
>is still being actively developed.

To me, the screen shot which is clearly pre-Windows XP is a better
clue. But <http://www.visimap.com/us/news.html> tells you the last
release was in 2004.

None of this says anything about what they're actually developing, however.
--

David Dunham         A Sharp, LLC         +1 206 783 7404
A release candidate of the Opal outliner is now available!
<http://a-sharp.com/opal/>

The Opal outliner is now for sale as a release candidate (be sure to
use the $5 discount coupon). <http://a-sharp.com/opal/> -- it
requires Mac OS X 10.4, but Windows users can at least look at the
screen shots if they're curious.

It fully supports multiple selection. (Which, as Stephen alludes to,
does make the UI more complicated -- a number of people want the old
days of a toggling Expand/Collapse menu command. But a selection may
include both expanded and collapsed topics, and the program can't
really predict which you'd rather do.)
--

David Dunham     A Sharp, LLC
Voice/Fax: 206 783 7404     http://a-sharp.com
Efficiency is intelligent laziness.

Increasingly I rely on a graphical outliner/mind mapper for core
outlining tasks. I want to experiment with taking this trend further
and actually do a project through a first draft in a visual outliner.
My graphical outliner is Visual-Mind, and I am not completely
satisfied with it. I think it has the smoothest interface for creating
hierarchies, but its text abilities are meager and probably most
importantly, in my experience it is fairly unstable.

MindGenius, MindManager - the mind mapping hype created to advertise
these products make me instinctively distrust them. (Perhaps this is
why I _seriously_ harbor the delusion that I can judge a program by
its name. Tell me what the developer is trying to do and how aptly he
tends to do it, and I can tell you how good the program is. Or so I am
deluded enough to half-believe.) Besides that, as a brainstorming
tool, I think Visual-Mind is a lot better than those programs.

So I am now considering a program that I would not have previously
looked at - although I always liked its name best. The program is
VisiMap, which seems and advertises itself as well-suited for heavy
text demands - and writing within the program - and which has a
brainstorming interface as slick as Visual-Mind. The reason I would
not have previously considered it is that it lacks one feature I have
announced is crucial in a modern outliner or quasi-outliner: multiple
selection of objects to reorganize a hierarchy.

It isn't all single selection in VisiMap. For those who know MyInfo
3.5, movement of multiple objects is implemented to the same degree.
They provide the equivalent of mark and gather of a subset of siblings.

If it were a matter of VisiMap having failed to plan its
infra-structure and having as a result, precluded this ability, that
would probably be end of the matter for me. But VisiMap is the best
planned of the visual outliners that I have examined. And its
developer seems to have made a conscious decision not to allow
multiple objects to be selected, a decision based on preserving
simplicity of operation. Indeed, in a visual-mapping application, it
is not clear that multiple selection is needed. If you look at the
actions involved, multi-selection does not clearly increase
efficiency, because each drop is much easier in a visual outliner. If
you base an estimate of simplicity on the number of movements, the
comparison with using multiple selection depends on the convention for
counting acts.

Has anyone had any experience with VisiMap or have any opinions about
this product. It has decreased its price, making me wonder whether it
is still being actively developed.

Two "spam" links to sites unrelated to this group have been removed.

The members who posted these links have also been removed from the group.

Good news! Thanks to Tom Nantais, who was able to clean up the file
from Dave using a script he found, I was able to import the
outliners.com message archives to the OutlinerSoftware.com site.

You may view the archives here:
http://www.outlinersoftware.com/archives

Or search from
http://www.outlinersoftware.com/search

Chris Murtland

Just as a follow-up, I did try to download OneNote 2007 beta, but MS's
web-site seems to be rather a mess and the requisite link was broken.
They also talked obscurely about future downloads being on a "cost
recovery basis", which sounded more like a threat (the bailiffs?) than
an invitation. Plain English is obviously not in fashion in Redmond.

Life being too short, etc., I've decided to wait for the finished
product. Pity, though, as I was very interested in the idea of being
able to use outlining in notes. That really will make it a killer
application (if done properly).

Derek

--- In outliners-pims@yahoogroups.com, "derekcornishuk"
<100341.2151@...> wrote:
>
> Ken (and Steve and Wes) -
>
> Thanks for letting me know. I'll take a look at the download route.
>
> Derek
> --- In outliners-pims@yahoogroups.com, "Kenneth S. Rhee"
> <polymath@> wrote:
> >
> >
> > You can just install OneNote beta, not the entire Office 2007 beta.
> >
> > The program works well although I have had a problem with search
> functions
> > (separate desktop search 3.0 beta).
> >
> > Ken
> >
>

Thanks to Chris Murtland, the URL for the outliners.com archive file
is posted over on the other site, where I have commented about it further.

Derek.

--- In outliners-pims@yahoogroups.com, "derekcornishuk"
<100341.2151@...> wrote:
>
> I have just posted a message over on our other site
> [http://www.outlinersoftware.com/] inquiring about the fate of the
> outliners.com archive, a copy of which Chris Murtland received in May.
> Apparently there are difficulties in rendering it usable.
>
> Has anybody heard anything more about this? Do others have copies of
> this file? It would be a pity to lose all those discussions,
> especially as the discussion group has now disappeared from the
> outliners.com website.
>
> It is possible to use Google, first searching for "outliners.com",
> then selecting "Find web pages from the site outliners.com". About
> 19,700 pages come up, and Google allows searching within these results.
>
> Unless I am doing something wrong, however, this last search does not
> seem to me to work very well; many posts about software we have
> discussed in the past (Zoot, ConnectedText, MyInfo) do not come up.
> This suggests that Google cannot substitute for a complete searchable
> archive of our own.
>
> Derek
>

I have just posted a message over on our other site
[http://www.outlinersoftware.com/] inquiring about the fate of the
outliners.com archive, a copy of which Chris Murtland received in May.
Apparently there are difficulties in rendering it usable.

Has anybody heard anything more about this? Do others have copies of
this file? It would be a pity to lose all those discussions,
especially as the discussion group has now disappeared from the
outliners.com website.

It is possible to use Google, first searching for "outliners.com",
then selecting "Find web pages from the site outliners.com". About
19,700 pages come up, and Google allows searching within these results.

Unless I am doing something wrong, however, this last search does not
seem to me to work very well; many posts about software we have
discussed in the past (Zoot, ConnectedText, MyInfo) do not come up.
This suggests that Google cannot substitute for a complete searchable
archive of our own.

Derek