The following is a duplicate of a message I posted at Outliners.com
earlier today:

Every day this week we have had posts disappear. There is no reason,
no explanation, no accountability by anyone.

Dave Winer seems beyond the reach of the internet, and we don't even
no for sure he is still involved. At least two of us have tried to get
the guy to respond.

Our discussions are important and valued by all of us who post here
regularly, and probably by people who read regularly though they never
post.

We have an alternative site over at Yahoo that was set up to cover the
contingency of Outliners.com going belly-up or, as now seems the case,
regularly self-destructing.

So why are we still here?

Can we make a decision to leave this site behind?

I have a Yahoo group that has 3,700 members, and I can tell you that
whatever Yahoo's faults, they are nothing ocmpared with the
aggravation of trying to post to this site.

Daly

Dear all,

The outliners.com site is down again; hoping that it will eventually re-appear,
we have prepared a short message to post to members through the "Community"
facilities, inviting them to this list.

Until then, please forward the message below to anyone that you personally know
has been following the outliners.com list:


"Dear member,

Apparently the outliners.com discussion list system has collapsed; anything
posted after February 19 eventually disappears.

In order to continue the discussion, we suggest that you join the Yahoo group
set up as a backup, at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/outliners-pims/

For the moment it seems that older Outliners.com messages have not been
affected; these may be easily searched and referenced through Google's Advanced
Search, by setting Outliners.com at the Domain field.

If you have the means to contribute to a more permanent solution that will
maintain the original Outliners.com archive, please post a message to the Yahoo
group in order to discuss the options.

That's it for the moment,
More as it happens,

Yours
Alexander Deliyannis
Stephen Cohen
Steve Zeoli"


Best
Alexander

You may notice that some message numbers are missing.  Here's what
happened:

As moderator, I deleted some spam messages and some messages I had
posted just to keep this group alive.  (The group becomes dormant if
not used after 3(?) months.)  I did NOT delete any other messages.

-sc

>
> Last, but not least, warm thanks to Eduardo and Neville for their
proposals which we should consider among the various options.
>


Since my message disappeared in Outliners.com I would like to
reiterate my offer. As I said my offer does not have any strings attached.

Best regards,
Eduardo Mauro
ConnectedText

(I am copying my Outliners.com messages to this list, initially for backup
reasons and to eventually move the full discussion here)



[ http://www.outliners.com/discuss/msgReader$5317?mode=day ]


Jack; warms thanks for the nomination; I do feel flattered.

I think the most important thing is our agreement that we can't continue
chatting as usual under the present conditions.

I whole-heartedly embrace your proposal, both short- and mid-term. As a first
step, I would advise everybody reading this to join the Yahoo group, at
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/outliners-pims

I'd give it a few days, perhaps till the end of this week, and then move the
full discussion there.

Steve Z., I stress that this is more than a technical issue and that IMHO you
are as capable as anyone in this forum to contribute.

I also would propose that Steve Cohen who, as far as I remember, set up the
Yahoo group, be the third person in the ad hoc "committee" to evaluate the
various possibilities and offer.

Last, but not least, warm thanks to Eduardo and Neville for their proposals
which we should consider among the various options.

That's it for now,

alx


Jack Crawford wrote [ http://www.outliners.com/discuss/msgReader$5313?mode=day ]


May I suggest a way forward?

SHORT-TERM Move the discussions immediately to
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/outliners(which I understand was set up for this
specific reason).

MEDIUM TERM Anoint 2 of our group to evaluate the various hosting options and
advise a course of action. They can be as consultative as they choose to be.

If I may mention 2 names, it would be good if we can use the talents of people
like Steve Zeoli and Alx Deliyannis who between them would have the relevant
background and technical skills. They may not have the time to commit, of
course. I (for one) don't have the required technical skills for a job like
this.

My 2c worth

Jack

--- In outliners-pims@yahoogroups.com, Daly de Gagne
<daly_de_gagne@s...> wrote:
>
> I don't know if anyone else is following this group at the moment,
but....

Daly -

Yes, I am keeping an eye on it still.

Today (12/20) I found that a long message I posted last night (or
early this morning) had disappeared by 8:30 a.m. I also had the usual
problems connecting. I think I will probably cut back on participation
for the time being; it's too frustrating :-).

As for changing the venue, the main problem is the longstanding
visibility of the outliners.com URL to Google and to those who only
drop in from time to time. At the moment Google seems to cache the
posts and archive indexes. I am not sure how much attention the
discussion would get if we moved to Yahoo.

Derek

I don't know if anyone else is following this group at the moment, but....

I went to Outliners.com this morning, and there is no record of the
posts sent to it yesterday. It cuts off with Friday's posts.

Yesterday, when posts were being sent to the group, the new posts did
not appear as they usually do, which resulted in my sending at least one
post twice. I think another person may have had the same experience.

I think it's time we moved, but since that's not my call I am just
putting it out there to see what others think.

Daly

Saturday morning -- and Outliners.com is down again.

It wouldn't be such a PITA if the Powers That Be at least let us know
what was going on.

FWIW, any residual nostalgia and good will based on the Good Old Days is
quickly disappearing on my part.

I spend way more time trying to get access to Outliners.com than I do
all my other surfing destinations combined.

Daly

>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

Stephen, many happy returns!

Daly

Stephen Cohen wrote:

>As of Dec 15 (my 65th birthday!) 11:20 pm EST, Outliners.com is
>NOW UP.
>
>WRT Derek's question, there are a lot of programs that can capture
>entire Web sites.  I've tried a couple, but have yet to decide on one.
>They store & display the results in many different ways--I don't know
>which would prove to be easiest to use.  I also don't know if they
>would be able to capture all of outliners.com. I am  running Win 98SE
>on a Thinkpad with only 196mb ram and dial-up Internet, so am not
>really equipped to capture entire Web sites.
>
>-sc
>
>=======
>--- In outliners-pims@yahoogroups.com, "derekcornishuk"
><100341.2151@c...> wrote:
>
>
>>Steve C.
>>
>>Every time this happens I get worried about whether the Outliners
>>archive will go down the tubes. This would be a pity, given all the
>>great discussion of software that's gone on over the years.
>>
>>Back in 5/27/01 John Lai talked about getting the whole archive
>>downloaded using something like Webzip (presumably there are lots of
>>alternatives by now). Has anyone done this, do you know? If we had to
>>transfer to Yahoo at some point, we could keep a copy in the Files
>>section for people to consult. I know that a lot of it is cached by
>>Google, but I don't know their policy on keeping older materials. I
>>remember with great regret how many Compuserve forum archives vanished
>>without trace because CIS just pulled the plug on them without warning.
>>
>>Hope I'm not closing this stable door after the horse has bolted...
>>
>>Derek
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

I agree with Derek's concerns, and again I raise the question of whether
it is time to substitute this group for Outliners.com. Frankly,
Outliners.com is down far more than any other site I frequent -- far
more than all the others combined. It becomes a major PITA after a while.

Daly

derekcornishuk wrote:

>Steve C.
>
>Every time this happens I get worried about whether the Outliners
>archive will go down the tubes. This would be a pity, given all the
>great discussion of software that's gone on over the years.
>
>Back in 5/27/01 John Lai talked about getting the whole archive
>downloaded using something like Webzip (presumably there are lots of
>alternatives by now). Has anyone done this, do you know? If we had to
>transfer to Yahoo at some point, we could keep a copy in the Files
>section for people to consult. I know that a lot of it is cached by
>Google, but I don't know their policy on keeping older materials. I
>remember with great regret how many Compuserve forum archives vanished
>without trace because CIS just pulled the plug on them without warning.
>
>Hope I'm not closing this stable door after the horse has bolted...
>
>Derek
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

As of Dec 15 (my 65th birthday!) 11:20 pm EST, Outliners.com is
NOW UP.

WRT Derek's question, there are a lot of programs that can capture
entire Web sites.  I've tried a couple, but have yet to decide on one.
They store & display the results in many different ways--I don't know
which would prove to be easiest to use.  I also don't know if they
would be able to capture all of outliners.com. I am  running Win 98SE
on a Thinkpad with only 196mb ram and dial-up Internet, so am not
really equipped to capture entire Web sites.

-sc

=======
--- In outliners-pims@yahoogroups.com, "derekcornishuk"
<100341.2151@c...> wrote:
>
>
> Steve C.
>
> Every time this happens I get worried about whether the Outliners
> archive will go down the tubes. This would be a pity, given all the
> great discussion of software that's gone on over the years.
>
> Back in 5/27/01 John Lai talked about getting the whole archive
> downloaded using something like Webzip (presumably there are lots of
> alternatives by now). Has anyone done this, do you know? If we had to
> transfer to Yahoo at some point, we could keep a copy in the Files
> section for people to consult. I know that a lot of it is cached by
> Google, but I don't know their policy on keeping older materials. I
> remember with great regret how many Compuserve forum archives vanished
> without trace because CIS just pulled the plug on them without warning.
>
> Hope I'm not closing this stable door after the horse has bolted...
>
> Derek
>

Steve C.

Every time this happens I get worried about whether the Outliners
archive will go down the tubes. This would be a pity, given all the
great discussion of software that's gone on over the years.

Back in 5/27/01 John Lai talked about getting the whole archive
downloaded using something like Webzip (presumably there are lots of
alternatives by now). Has anyone done this, do you know? If we had to
transfer to Yahoo at some point, we could keep a copy in the Files
section for people to consult. I know that a lot of it is cached by
Google, but I don't know their policy on keeping older materials. I
remember with great regret how many Compuserve forum archives vanished
without trace because CIS just pulled the plug on them without warning.

Hope I'm not closing this stable door after the horse has bolted...

Derek

Ditto here.  I just checked Dave Winer's blog page, but there was no
mention of Outliners.com.  I've sent him a message about the site
being down.  Hopefully, he will be able to tell me something, which I
will pass on to you.

-Steve C

--- In outliners-pims@yahoogroups.com, "derekcornishuk"
<100341.2151@c...> wrote:
>
> --- In outliners-pims@yahoogroups.com, "stephenzeoli" <szeoli@e...>
wrote:
> >
> > Hello,
> >
> > Just wondering if anyone has had any luck logging on to outliners.com
> > in the past three days. I haven't been able to. Has it finally
stopped
> > for good?
> >
> > Steve Z.
> >
>
> I've been having the same problem, Steve, and I'm getting withdrawal
> symptoms already. I'm hoping this is just a maintenance issue, but
> that is whistling in the dark.
>
> Derek
>

--- In outliners-pims@yahoogroups.com, "stephenzeoli" <szeoli@e...> wrote:
>
> Hello,
>
> Just wondering if anyone has had any luck logging on to outliners.com
> in the past three days. I haven't been able to. Has it finally stopped
> for good?
>
> Steve Z.
>

I've been having the same problem, Steve, and I'm getting withdrawal
symptoms already. I'm hoping this is just a maintenance issue, but
that is whistling in the dark.

Derek

Hello,

Just wondering if anyone has had any luck logging on to outliners.com
in the past three days. I haven't been able to. Has it finally stopped
for good?

Steve Z.

I suspect I only ever access it thorugh my home PC, so cannot judge.

Graham

On 7/27/05, Daly de Gagne <daly_de_gagne@...> wrote:
> I had the problem repeatedly yesterday, Graham.
>
> FWIW, I do notice it is more of a problem when I am using the computer at
> work, which is on our office network. Whether that's a factor, I do not
> know. What I do know is that I have less problem at home.
>
> Is there anyone at Outliners.com who can advise what the problem is?
>
> Daly
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: outliners-pims@yahoogroups.com [mailto:outliners-pims@yahoogroups.com]
> On Behalf Of Graham Smith
> Sent: July 27, 2005 00:57
> To: outliners-pims@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [outliners-pims] Re: Staying Alive
>
> Which may be just as well as Outliners.com is dead again (connection
> refused) and has been since yesterday. I assume everyone is having the same
> problem?
>
> Graham
>
> On 7/27/05, Stephen Cohen <ureadit@...> wrote:
> > --- In outliners-pims@yahoogroups.com, "Stephen Cohen" <ureadit@h...>
> > wrote:
> > > Just to keep this group from being eliminated.
> >
> > And again
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

I had the problem repeatedly yesterday, Graham.

FWIW, I do notice it is more of a problem when I am using the computer at
work, which is on our office network. Whether that's a factor, I do not
know. What I do know is that I have less problem at home.

Is there anyone at Outliners.com who can advise what the problem is?

Daly

-----Original Message-----
From: outliners-pims@yahoogroups.com [mailto:outliners-pims@yahoogroups.com]
On Behalf Of Graham Smith
Sent: July 27, 2005 00:57
To: outliners-pims@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [outliners-pims] Re: Staying Alive

Which may be just as well as Outliners.com is dead again (connection
refused) and has been since yesterday. I assume everyone is having the same
problem?

Graham

On 7/27/05, Stephen Cohen <ureadit@...> wrote:
> --- In outliners-pims@yahoogroups.com, "Stephen Cohen" <ureadit@h...>
> wrote:
> > Just to keep this group from being eliminated.
>
> And again
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>



Yahoo! Groups Links

Unfortunately, it happens rather a lot, but I think this is only the
second time in the last month or so that it has broken this long.

Graham

On 7/27/05, Alexander Deliyannis - SYMPRAXIS <sub@...> wrote:
>
> :-(
> Yup, me too.
>
> alx
>
>
> *********** REPLY SEPARATOR  ***********
>
> On 2005-07-27 at 6:56 ðì Graham Smith wrote:
>
> >Which may be just as well as Outliners.com is dead again (connection
> >refused) and has been since yesterday. I assume everyone is having the
> >same problem?
> >
> >Graham
>
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

:-(
Yup, me too.

alx


*********** REPLY SEPARATOR  ***********

On 2005-07-27 at 6:56 ðì Graham Smith wrote:

>Which may be just as well as Outliners.com is dead again (connection
>refused) and has been since yesterday. I assume everyone is having the
>same problem?
>
>Graham

Which may be just as well as Outliners.com is dead again (connection
refused) and has been since yesterday. I assume everyone is having the
same problem?

Graham

On 7/27/05, Stephen Cohen <ureadit@...> wrote:
> --- In outliners-pims@yahoogroups.com, "Stephen Cohen" <ureadit@h...>
> wrote:
> > Just to keep this group from being eliminated.
>
> And again
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

I have been unable to post to outliners.com. The error message reads:

"Sorry! There was an error: Can't evaluate the expression because the
name "referer" hasn't been defined.

"The error was detected by Frontier 9.0 in mainResponder.respond.
Webmaster: dave@.... Time: Thu, 01 Jul 2004 04:37:06 GMT."

Is it my system or outliners?

srdiamond

Thanks for all this, Steve! I found that the file link (though not the text you
click on) still had the period and produced a Not Found. It worked when I
replace it with a hyphen manually in the URL.

Nick.

--- In outliners-pims@yahoogroups.com, "Stephen Cohen" <ureadit@h...> wrote:
> 1. The link in the previous message to the uploaded file does not
> work.  To read the file, click on "files" in the menu to the left.
>
> 2.  When posting, do not put a period in the title or subject line.
> Yahoo sometimes reads what follows the period as a file extension and
> generates an error when someone tries to read the posting.
>
> -sc

The outliners.com web site is back and is accepting new messages.
However, it is only back part-time.  Apparently there are still
maintenance chores that need to be done.  Yesterday, I only found it
up at night (U.S. East Coast time).  So, if you get a message that
the site cannot be found, don't give up.  Keep trying.

-sc

Outliners.com is now up and running again, although at the moment
(6/21/04) it sometimes displays a bug.  Visit it at
                    http://outliners.com.

This forum, outliners-pims, is a place to go to for info if
outliners.com ever disappears.  It is also a place to list your
email address, just in case outliners.com again disappears and you
want to get in touch with other outliners.com members.

Other than the above, I do not expect to run this as a separate,
active forum.  I strongly encourage people interested in outliners
and/or PIMs to join outliners.com.

-Steve Cohen

While trying to access Outliners.com, I received a new error message:

"Sorry! There was an error: #members attribute must be
           either a table or the name of a sub-table or valid
           address or string in members.root.

           The error was detected by Frontier 9.0 in
mainResponder.respond. Webmaster:
           dave@.... Time: Sun, 20 Jun 2004 15:42:52 GMT. "

It looks like Dave W is in the process of setting up the site again!

-sc

1. The link in the previous message to the uploaded file does not
work.  To read the file, click on "files" in the menu to the left.

2.  When posting, do not put a period in the title or subject line.
Yahoo sometimes reads what follows the period as a file extension and
generates an error when someone tries to read the posting.

-sc

Hello,

This email message is a notification to let you know that
a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the outliners-pims
group.

   File        : /WHAT's HAPPENED WITH OUTLINERS.COM
   Uploaded by : punultimate <ureadit@...>
   Description : What I think I've learned

You can access this file at the URL

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/outliners-pims/files/WHAT%27s%20HAPPENED%20WITH%20\
OUTLINERS.COM

To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit

http://help.yahoo.com/help/us/groups/files

Regards,

punultimate <ureadit@...>

If you're wondering what has become of outliners.com, here's what
I've been told.  The start using this site.ite was being transferred
to a new server when the transfer ran into trouble. They hope to have
it back up soon.

If it doesn't come up in a couple of weeks, we may wish to s

-Steve Cohen

Steve Z,

I'd rather wait on announcements a bit to see if
Outliners.com comes back online.  I think we owe that
to Dave Winer.  In the meantime, we can search Yahoo
PIM groups for the names of other Outliners.com
members and send them emails telling them of this
"fall-back" site.  That's how I got a current email
address for you.

Right now I set up the group to require my approval
for membership.  This is because the setup did not
have an option for my being able to block out
spammers.  I'm hoping that now that the group exists,
I'll find something in the group management area that
will allow me to block spam and eliminate the need for
me to approve memberships.  I'm also hoping to change
my email address for this group as this address'
mailbox is full.

-Steve C

================================================
--- stephenzeoli <szeoli@...> wrote:
> Hi, Steve,
>
> Well, you have your first member. Thank you for
> doing this. I
> suspect we'll have a more active membership with
> Yahoo, as it will
> be easier for people to find us. I'm a member of the
> Zoot and
> InfoSelect groups. I'd be glad to make an
> announcement on either or
> both those groups about this one. Would you want me
> to do that?
>
> Steve Z.
>
>
>
> ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
> --------------------~-->
> Make a clean sweep of pop-up ads. Yahoo! Companion
> Toolbar.
> Now with Pop-Up Blocker. Get it for free!
>
http://us.click.yahoo.com/L5YrjA/eSIIAA/yQLSAA/NhFolB/TM
>
--------------------------------------------------------------------~->
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>      outliners-pims-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>
>





__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Friends.  Fun.  Try the all-new Yahoo! Messenger.
http://messenger.yahoo.com/

Hi, Steve,

Well, you have your first member. Thank you for doing this. I
suspect we'll have a more active membership with Yahoo, as it will
be easier for people to find us. I'm a member of the Zoot and
InfoSelect groups. I'd be glad to make an announcement on either or
both those groups about this one. Would you want me to do that?

Steve Z.