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Reply | Forward Message #92 of 116 |
RE: Planting in sandy soils - from Marsha Hanzi

Thank you Eric for helping me elaborate on this point because I imagine others on this list also  misinterpreted the situation as you have.
 
We must be very careful to distinguish between dry sandy SOILS and dry CLIMATES. Dry sandy soils in humid climates (which is Cory´s case in Florida, unless the cliamte there has changed since I lived there) need totally different strategies from sandy soils in dry climates, which is the case of my present farm.  So I will elaborate on both, getting around to polycultures in both...
 
The key is whether we have enough humidity for good decomposition of organic amtter.  If we do, the very best strategy for sand is to pile on the organic matter. You may have to kick-start it with compost or manures or compost tea, but once it gets going these soils are extremely active- you can almost hear them slurp at night! The most difficult thing then is to keep supplying them with organic matter, the absolutely best being the ends of tree branches:
  • The leaves furnish nitrogen and stimulate presence of bacteria
  • the woody part furnishes carbon and encourages the fungi, which are  REALLY important for forming good organic soils.  As we are talking of a proposal for a forest garden, we would like the soils more fungus -=dominated than in vegetable gardens where we would prefer bacteria -dominant soils.
  • the growing tips, which have enzymes etc. will be where we are most likely to find the micro-elements, which actually may be the limiting factor in this kind of soil.Luckily Cory lives near the sea.
We can make reallly really dense plantings in this kind of soil ( only managing light requirements), something like one plant every ten centimeters.  The vast mat of roots will help build the soil up at incredible speed. There are lots of already-existing polycultures appropriate to this kind of situation. (Don´t forget to use castor, great nitrogen source and boron accumulator, which could be a limiting factor in sand.)
 
Compost is not necessary here- it would be like opening baby food for a child which has teeth( exception being at the beginning).
 
Raised beds work fine here, especially if you fill up the valleys between beds with organic material. It is important to plant mulch plants which resprout easily- hibiscus is great for this, and makes the project beautiful. Our "forest gurú" Ernst Gotsch has even used it in commercial fruit agroforests.
 
When working in  dry climates, where there is NOT enough humidity to decompose the organic matter, it is a whole nother ballgame, as they say back in the old country (USA).Then you must go down  as Eric says, and use pre-digested organic matter, such as composts and manures.  In fact the bacteria in the cow´s rumen substitute for the soil bacteria, which are inactive a good part of the year.
 
Mulching can actually be a detriment if you put on too  much or the wrong type- something I had to learn the hard way.
 
Polycultures?  I am still experimenting with them.  During the rainy season we have sucessfully worked with rather dense plantings.  In the drier part of the year, or in drier years I am not yet sure how much we can push it.  It seems to be important whether the plants are "cool" or "hot" as the local farmers say. "cool" being those plants which contribute humidity to the system, susch as purslane and opuntias. "Hot" would be those plants which grab the humidity for themselves, such as mesquite and sisal and some of the annual weeds.
 
The organic matter often needs to be incorporated into the soil otherwise it just oxidizes - am still experimenting with this, too, so may say differently next year. We would never have to do that in  sandy soils in humid climates, although a French Intensive system would be a great way to start!
 
As to trees in trenches, my very best garden trench has a whole tree buried in it! It helps the trench not go anaerobic, which can be a problem in this form of farming. Of course I don´t us JUST woody material in such a trench , but then nitrogen is easy to come by to compensate the carbon. We also add charcoal a la "Terra Preta de Índio" to help keep the micro -organisms ( even more important in humid climates!)
 
FINALLY - I have three practically contiguous properties, totalling some 50 acres.  In spite of their proximity they have totaly different vocations, personalities, soils needing radically different strategies.  So There is no way that one can avoid the learning curve. One has to take the time  to learn to dialogue with the system. Once you do, it can "tell" you what needs to be done....If I hadn´t arrived here "thinking I knew about agroecology" my progress might just have been quicker, if I had just got my information directly from the system...
 
 
 


--- On Wed, 2/18/09, Eric J. Frank <ericjolen@...> wrote:
From: Eric J. Frank <ericjolen@...>
Subject: Re: [polyculturepeople] Re: Updates from Marsha Hanzi, Brazil
To: polyculturepeople@yahoogroups.com
Date: Wednesday, February 18, 2009, 12:37 PM

RE: Raised beds and dry sandy soils            NO to raised beds and NO to buried logs for this described site.

I'm not familiar with Sepp but I believe the advice you give will be a bit problematic.

If one is gardening in very dry sandy soils the last thing that ought to be done is create raised beds.  I have many years experience gardening in many soil types and have experimented extensively with many different raised bed configurations.  The advice for trenching and burying organic matter content is good, but for weak soils in a dry climate I do not recommend logs of all things; with weak soils a high C additive like log will suck up any nitrogen passing through the soil and lock it up for years hence reducing fertility.  Rotten hay bails, leaf litter, composted manure, save your own poop and kitchen scraps, roadkill, swamp matter -- whatever but not logs I have seen permies try this with very disappointing results.  Back to bed contruction:  orient north/south if possible for maximum solar exposure and go DOWN NOT UP for bed construction.  I promise you by experience that the worst thing you can do in a hot dry climate is raise beds and especially if you have weak sandy soils.  My expereince is in cool climate growing conditions, sandy dry soils none-the-less and it was a major mistake and learning experience when I tried the raised mounds (three sisters demo).  Try a 'waffle' garden layout or instead of the ridges suggestions invert and go with double dug trenches.  OMC deep in the ground with a shallow trench (12" deep) above for planting in.  You'll love it and use much less water.  This can only be a problematic design in wettest climates and frost prone climates.

For an apprenticeship check out Nat Larson of Bayfield WI whom started a permie community in 2005 and other than the Bullock Bros has easily the best opportunity to immerse in permie design in N America.  his number 715 779 9760
 
Eric J. Frank
Agricultural Development Specialist
715 779 9760
 
Go Local - Go Organic! 



From: Niels Corfield <mudguard@gmail. com>
To: polyculturepeople@ yahoogroups. com
Sent: Sunday, February 15, 2009 10:52:50 AM
Subject: Re: [polyculturepeople] Re: Updates from Marsha Hanzi, Brazil

Cory,

Have you experimented with raised beds? Like Sepp?
How big is you yard?
My 5c worth is to hire a mini-digger for the weekend, dig big trenches and bury all the organic matter you can get your hands on -logs especially.
This I reckon will cure your issues with moisture retention and fertility.
Here's Sepp's thoughts.

Cheers,
Niels
My Bookmarks:
http://delicious. com/nielscorfiel d My Pics and Projects: http://www.flickr. com/photos/ nielscorfield/ http://picasaweb. google..com/ mudguard Groups I Contribute to: http://tech. groups.yahoo. com/group/ polyculturepeopl e/ http://uk.groups. yahoo.com/ group/leeds_ permaculture_ network/? yguid=243022692 http://lists. ibiblio.org/ mailman/listinfo /scythe


cory8570 wrote:
Marsha!!! I should have guessed you would be on a list like this!
Wow, I am going to be getting the best info here...

Yes, I moved to Florida, had friends out here and needed a vacation
from LA. I don't know how permanent it is yet but we'll see.

By the way, my 16 year old son did the permaculture course and now
wants to stretch his wings and apprentice somewhere really different
than LA. Do you have apprenticeship programs there? I would love to
come and see what you are doing too (I'll email you more on this).

We have seriously sandy soil here, I mean like beach sand. I'm not
used to that at all - the nutrients just soak right down through the
sand (and the water does too). We're trying a cardboard glie type
sheet mulching with seaweed to see if that will work. Right now my
yard is a polyculture of "weeds" - Spanish nettle, sorrel and chicory
:-) The landlord was going rip it out and put in lawn, yikes. Nothing
much else will grow in the soil, but it makes great salad, all edible.

I've seen part of that DVD (I think it's the same one), it really is
amazing. I love that shot of him walking in snow up to his hips
practically to pick lemons!

I'm going to pass this info on to our volunteer group
(createclearwater. com). We're just starting, most are just learning,
but I'm trying to get more of them trained as permaculturists and into
all the possibilities.

Cory

--- In polyculturepeople@ yahoogroups. com, Marsha Hanzi <mhanzi@...> wrote:
>
> Cory!
>  
> You´re in Florida now?
>  
> I would recommend  Chris Evan´s system- it worked great for us. I
think you will find it in the archives of this list. Basically he
plants out seedlings of longer-season crops (cabbage, peppers, etc.),
beans at every half foot, throws out seeds of salad greens calculated
to occupy the space and then fills the cracks up with quickies like
coriander, fenugreek.  The key is to keep harvesting, making way for
the next generation. It worked great for us with a twist: adding
adzuki beans to the mix, they make tiny little umbrellas which protect
the new seedlings from our tropical sun.
>  
> I will be getting big into polycultures this year ( with the rains
in May).  Will keep this list posted of the new combinations.
>  
> One that worked especially well last year: amaranth, radishes,
rocket, scattered over the surface ( also buckwheat but the ants ate
that!)  planting squash every 2 meters with compost and one
sunflower.  We planted late so the squash only produced flowers ( but
vast quantities) but the rest produced well.
>  
> We hoed the seeds in with  bonemeal and goat manure ( which comes
naturally pelleted!) and a bit of clay as our soil is so sandy. We
covered it all with long cane grass which let enough light and space
for the seeds to come up among the canes- something I highly
recommend! Did not hoe or weed- just returned to pick! And that field
today is clearly richer and more fertile than the land beside it which
has never been worked.
>  
> I just received the DVD of Sepp Holzer- an astonishing example of
polycultures in a near-siberian climate ( median temperature 4.5
degrees...) in the mountains of Austria.
> (www.okofilms. de)
>
> Happy almost Spring to everyone!
> Marsha
> --- On Tue, 2/10/09, cory8570 <cory8570@.. .> wrote:
>
> From: cory8570 <cory8570@.. .>
> Subject: [polyculturepeople] Introduction
> To: polyculturepeople@ yahoogroups. com
> Date: Tuesday, February 10, 2009, 1:37 PM
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Hi, I'm a permaculture designer who recently relocated to Florida from
> LA. I had a food forest in LA that I was just starting to experiment
> with regarding polycultures. Mostly I've done them in my veggie beds.
>
> I worked with Adonijah Miyamura at Crenshaw High food forest and have
> seen a number of examples of food forests that had lots of interaction
> going on.
>
> I'm interested in discussing successes with tropical/semi- tropical
> polycultures in food forests. I've studied the coffee plantation
> version and also some of Marsha Hanzi's work in Brazil (which is
> amazing stuff!) Just from what was happening in my forest, it seems
> that there are many potentials for polycrop in semi and tropical
> areas. I've found that permaculturists often don't record their
> experiences with polycropping - I know I haven't and no one I know has
> either. That would be a good project for somebody.
>
> I'm also helping organize a permaculture course at the first Earthship
> in Florida starting at the end of Feb, more info at
> thepermacultureguil d.com - it's going to be a really good course with
> lots of extras above and beyond the 72 hour requirements, including
> workshops on native plants and other things.
>
> Cory Brennan
>





Sun Feb 22, 2009 1:23 pm

mhanzi
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Message #92 of 116 |
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Hi, I have just joined the group so thought I would introduce myself. My name is Linda Shewan - my interests are mainly in permaculture and natural farming...
linda_shewan
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Jul 12, 2007
6:32 am

Thank you for accepting my membership application. A father of two sons, both of whom work in the public sector, allow me to take a wholistic view to the...
Martin
hellana_warrior
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Jul 14, 2008
8:19 am

Hi, I'm a permaculture designer who recently relocated to Florida from LA. I had a food forest in LA that I was just starting to experiment with regarding...
cory8570
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Feb 10, 2009
3:37 pm

Cory!   You´re in Florida now?   I would recommend  Chris Evan´s system- it worked great for us. I think you will find it in the archives of this list....
Marsha Hanzi
mhanzi
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Feb 10, 2009
4:23 pm

Actually you are in my old stomping grounds! I was raised in Lakeland, and often went to Clearwater. Sorry to use the list- your permacultureguild address...
Marsha Hanzi
mhanzi
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Feb 10, 2009
4:56 pm

Hi,   Those of you in the states of Washington and Oregon may be able to attend one of Sepp Holzer's lectures scheduled for February and March of this year....
Robert Monie
bobm20001
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Feb 10, 2009
6:30 pm

Marsha!!! I should have guessed you would be on a list like this! Wow, I am going to be getting the best info here... Yes, I moved to Florida, had friends out...
cory8570
Offline Send Email
Feb 13, 2009
3:07 am

Cory, Have you experimented with raised beds? Like Sepp? How big is you yard? My 5c worth is to hire a mini-digger for the weekend, dig big trenches and bury...
Niels Corfield
nocompost
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Feb 15, 2009
6:53 pm

RE: Raised beds and dry sandy soils NO to raised beds and NO to buried logs for this described site. I'm not familiar with Sepp but I believe the...
Eric J. Frank
ericjolen
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Feb 18, 2009
3:37 pm

Thank you Eric for helping me elaborate on this point because I imagine others on this list also  misinterpreted the situation as you have.   We must be very...
Marsha Hanzi
mhanzi
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Feb 22, 2009
1:23 pm

Thanks for this advice - Dan Hemenway, Florida permaculturist also recommended to dig a pit and fill it with organic matter.  It makes sense, a sort of flat...
Cory Brennan
cory8570
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Feb 19, 2009
2:34 pm

We also had no clay until I bought another property with clay, so we used bits of bricks and broken clay tiles. But well-decomposed organic matter has its own...
Marsha Hanzi
mhanzi
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Feb 22, 2009
1:58 pm

Laf!  I have heard more people complain about how hard it is to grow stuff here than anywhere I've ever lived.  And I'm looking around, at the rainfall, the...
Cory Brennan
cory8570
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Feb 23, 2009
5:15 pm

Hi Cory! Sorry!  Don´t accept invitations any more- am too happy planting my own paradise... It´s now up to the next generation (you!)   But if I should...
Marsha Hanzi
mhanzi
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Feb 26, 2009
12:31 pm
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