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#30 From: "whyldwest" <chuckjwest@...>
Date: Sat Jun 23, 2007 2:02 pm
Subject: Re: hello whyldwest
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Thought I would introduce myself as well.  I have been focusing on
perennial polycultures within forest garden designs in Devon, England
for about a year.  I have been working informally at the Agroforestry
Research Trust with Martin Crawford.  Through that experience I focused
my disssertation on forest gardening as an authentic experience in
wisdom, knowledge, and practice of what is normally called 'ecology'.
In my work I have deemphasized the logos of ecology and reemphasized the
ecos.  Complementary to a logos, or knowledge, of the home, are both
wisdom (ecosophy) and practice of the home, or what I have been calling
'ecopraxy'  (Management of the home, 'economics', is of course also a
component, but a relatively small one.  It should be thought of perhaps
as one aspect of an authentic practice of the home.  My completion of an
MSc in Holistic Science at Schumacher College led into continuing on
here at Schumacher and redesigning/regenerating the mown and blown
lawnscape into edible woodland landscapes.  I have spent the past 10
months in that endevour, building a greenhouse, planting trees, and
propogating thousands of understory perennials.

I struggle within the context of the Dartington Estate, a place which
finds itself rather stuck in the mud and resistant to change.  Slowly
however, the wheels turn, and slowly the mower blades whirr to a halt.

I look forward to learning and sharing,

Justin West

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#29 From: Niels Corfield <mudguard@...>
Date: Sat Jun 23, 2007 7:34 am
Subject: Re: hello nocompost
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ethan,

Still sounds like a great patch out the front there. Any chance we can get some photos of it? Be really great to get them hosted on a Flickr account, or on mine. What is the season like for you at the moment? What is your latitude?
BTW, do you fancy posting you URLs (weblinks) again? Be good to let new members get a look see.

Nice one,
Niels

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ethan roland wrote:

thanks carey welcome aboard!

i too am living in an semi-urban area (northampton, massachusetts) and have some similar restrictions on animals, hampering the multi-kindom possibilities of perennial polyculture. the laws will change however, when people start electing politicians who are understand the concepts and practices of regenerative design... this power is in our hands, and we have started a local permaculture group to this end (among many others!).

i feel that permaculture carries us far beyond the design of plant polycultures and into the realm of real socio-cultural re-creative design... what does a mutually supportive bio-diverse polyculture of human societies look like? i bet it'll be even better than the comfrey-chive-anisse-hyssop-pawpaw-strawberry patch in my front yard...

cheers,
ethan

On 6/17/07, zombans <zombans@yahoo.com> wrote:
Just wanted to say hi and introduce myself.  My name is Carey.  I
live with my husband and daughter on a 1/5 acre urban homestead in
the middle mid-West United States.  For the last year, we have been
dealing with extreme weather--a tornado and two ice storms that
decimated our beautiful mature trees.  Last year we had a very shady
yard, and now we have a very sunny yard.  We're starting over, in
other words.

I've been reading a lot about permaculture in the last year, and my
husband and I are taking a design course (thanks to a scholarship)
later this summer.  We have read Gaia's Garden and One-Straw
Revolution, and love both.  My spouse has been raving about Finite
and Infinite Games, and talking excitedly about the garden, and that
is the next book on my list.  We also received the two-volume set of
Forest Garden books.  I have flipped through excitedly, and love what
I have read so far.

I'm not sure what we do is really called polyculture, or is more like
experimental laziness.  We're experimenting with no-till.  I have
changed my belief system so that now I do not have weeds; I have
food, medicine, and mulch.  (Maybe poison ivy still fits into
the "weed" category?)  We've learned that about 80% of the weeds that
grow in our yard are edible, which makes me feel like I'm already
living in the garden of eden.  We are letting things grow up to see
what happens, and we already have at least 100 different plants
growing in our little space, some that we planted, but most are gifts
from above (bird poop bombs).

We are somewhat hampered by zoning laws--that goes with living in the
city, I suppose.  No chickens or alternative building methods are
allowed.  Farmland prices around us have risen 45% in the last four
years, so we're probably staying put unless a large amount of chaos
happens.

We are especially enjoying the raspberry patch these days, and hoping
for rain.

carey

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(518) 610-1375

AppleSeed Permaculture
Design - Teach - Research
www.appleseedpermaculture.com

Northeastern Permaculture Wiki
www.northeasternpermaculture.wikispaces.com

8th International Permaculture Conference, Brazil, 2007
www.ipc8.org

" You can count the number of seeds in an apple, but you can't count the number of apples in a seed" - proverb via Paul Krafel

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#28 From: "ethan roland" <eroland@...>
Date: Sat Jun 23, 2007 12:20 am
Subject: Re: hello plink23
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thanks carey welcome aboard!

i too am living in an semi-urban area (northampton, massachusetts) and have some similar restrictions on animals, hampering the multi-kindom possibilities of perennial polyculture. the laws will change however, when people start electing politicians who are understand the concepts and practices of regenerative design... this power is in our hands, and we have started a local permaculture group to this end (among many others!).

i feel that permaculture carries us far beyond the design of plant polycultures and into the realm of real socio-cultural re-creative design... what does a mutually supportive bio-diverse polyculture of human societies look like? i bet it'll be even better than the comfrey-chive-anisse-hyssop-pawpaw-strawberry patch in my front yard...

cheers,
ethan

On 6/17/07, zombans <zombans@...> wrote:

Just wanted to say hi and introduce myself.  My name is Carey.  I
live with my husband and daughter on a 1/5 acre urban homestead in
the middle mid-West United States.  For the last year, we have been
dealing with extreme weather--a tornado and two ice storms that
decimated our beautiful mature trees.  Last year we had a very shady
yard, and now we have a very sunny yard.  We're starting over, in
other words.

I've been reading a lot about permaculture in the last year, and my
husband and I are taking a design course (thanks to a scholarship)
later this summer.  We have read Gaia's Garden and One-Straw
Revolution, and love both.  My spouse has been raving about Finite
and Infinite Games, and talking excitedly about the garden, and that
is the next book on my list.  We also received the two-volume set of
Forest Garden books.  I have flipped through excitedly, and love what
I have read so far.

I'm not sure what we do is really called polyculture, or is more like
experimental laziness.  We're experimenting with no-till.  I have
changed my belief system so that now I do not have weeds; I have
food, medicine, and mulch.  (Maybe poison ivy still fits into
the "weed" category?)  We've learned that about 80% of the weeds that
grow in our yard are edible, which makes me feel like I'm already
living in the garden of eden.  We are letting things grow up to see
what happens, and we already have at least 100 different plants
growing in our little space, some that we planted, but most are gifts
from above (bird poop bombs).

We are somewhat hampered by zoning laws--that goes with living in the
city, I suppose.  No chickens or alternative building methods are
allowed.  Farmland prices around us have risen 45% in the last four
years, so we're probably staying put unless a large amount of chaos
happens.

We are especially enjoying the raspberry patch these days, and hoping
for rain.

carey

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--
Ethan C. Roland
(518) 610-1375

AppleSeed Permaculture
Design - Teach - Research
www.appleseedpermaculture.com

Northeastern Permaculture Wiki
www.northeasternpermaculture.wikispaces.com

8th International Permaculture Conference, Brazil, 2007
www.ipc8.org

" You can count the number of seeds in an apple, but you can't count the number of apples in a seed" - proverb via Paul Krafel

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#27 From: "zombans" <zombans@...>
Date: Sun Jun 17, 2007 6:31 pm
Subject: hello zombans
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Just wanted to say hi and introduce myself.  My name is Carey.  I
live with my husband and daughter on a 1/5 acre urban homestead in
the middle mid-West United States.  For the last year, we have been
dealing with extreme weather--a tornado and two ice storms that
decimated our beautiful mature trees.  Last year we had a very shady
yard, and now we have a very sunny yard.  We're starting over, in
other words.

I've been reading a lot about permaculture in the last year, and my
husband and I are taking a design course (thanks to a scholarship)
later this summer.  We have read Gaia's Garden and One-Straw
Revolution, and love both.  My spouse has been raving about Finite
and Infinite Games, and talking excitedly about the garden, and that
is the next book on my list.  We also received the two-volume set of
Forest Garden books.  I have flipped through excitedly, and love what
I have read so far.

I'm not sure what we do is really called polyculture, or is more like
experimental laziness.  We're experimenting with no-till.  I have
changed my belief system so that now I do not have weeds; I have
food, medicine, and mulch.  (Maybe poison ivy still fits into
the "weed" category?)  We've learned that about 80% of the weeds that
grow in our yard are edible, which makes me feel like I'm already
living in the garden of eden.  We are letting things grow up to see
what happens, and we already have at least 100 different plants
growing in our little space, some that we planted, but most are gifts
from above (bird poop bombs).

We are somewhat hampered by zoning laws--that goes with living in the
city, I suppose.  No chickens or alternative building methods are
allowed.  Farmland prices around us have risen 45% in the last four
years, so we're probably staying put unless a large amount of chaos
happens.

We are especially enjoying the raspberry patch these days, and hoping
for rain.

carey

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#26 From: "jodancingtree" <jodancingtree@...>
Date: Sat May 19, 2007 2:10 am
Subject: How does your garden grow? jodancingtree
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I'm brand new here, and new to permaculture - I've gardened for over
30 years, but always more or less traditionally. The booklet on mixed
vegetable gardening in the files is inspiring, and I'll have to try to
work that in this year...

This year is new in many ways for me: newly single, new, much smaller
garden, last kid just went off to college - and now a new way of
gardening to experiment with. Being the "rush in where angels fear to
tread" type, I went out and played in the garden all day today. Ate a
violet (not much flavor, but I'm not dead yet. It's purple, so is it
rich in vitamin A?)

My back yard is mostly shade: several big old maples. Some wild black
raspberries, wild roses, more creeping charlie than grass. One small,
determined apple tree which I suspect is a volunteer, as no one would
really PLANT it four inches from the garage wall, right? The only sun
is  right by the back door (soil contamination from lead paint???). I
lined up a dozen big pots, planted lettuce & radishes 3 weeks ago (up
and doing well) and zucchini and bush cukes today - with a pole stuck
in the middle of the pot and 3 pole beans planted round it. Eggplant,
peppers, cilantro, basil are still in their little planters, moving
outside in the morning and inside at night: we've had frost as late as
the 27th of May some years.

More sun in the front, so will try to incorporate tomatoes into the
flower bed. Today Next Door Neighbor offered me a slew of ferns that,
in defiance of everything I "knew" about ferns, have been flourishing
in bright sun on the east side of his house. I planted a lot of them
around the dry well in bright sunshine where my sump pump empties,
figuring they should like the moisture. Another half dozen around some
unfortunate azaleas and rhododendrons that got the bitter end of a
chain saw from ex last summer: I do hope the bushes will recover, and
then the ferns may get crowded out, but meanwhile the scene of the
attack looks a bit less heartbreaking. Still have a bucket of ferns to
try in deep shade at the back of the yard, and it'll be interesting to
see how they adapt in the various locations.

And now I'll shut up, having rambled on WAY too long for a newbie!
But I'm hoping this will get someone else talking - what's happening
in YOUR garden this lovely 18th of May?

jo
  rushing in where angels tip-toe

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#25 From: "Peggy" <peg6012@...>
Date: Fri Mar 16, 2007 4:26 am
Subject: Re: some thoughts on polyculture design peg6012
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--- In polyculturepeople@yahoogroups.com, "ethan roland" <eroland@...>
wrote:
>
> Polyculture People!
>
>>>
> anyone's interested.
>
>>Thank you for the info - it is most helpful.  I'm just getting
started, but I'm sure I'll have a ton of questions as I go along. Many
thanks, Peg

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#24 From: Marsha Hanzi <mhanzi@...>
Date: Fri Mar 2, 2007 3:04 pm
Subject: A new polyculture project in Massachusetts, USA mhanzi
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-----Original Message-----
From: coldestsnow@...
To: permaculture@...
Sent: Wed, 21 Feb 2007 10:56 PM
Subject: Eastern Mass - Permaculture Implimentation Meeting

Permagra is a new group forming a land trust...

We are asking those interested in practicing permaculture locally to
attend a public committee meeting in Essex, Ma.

As a group we are now studying perennial species published in Jacke's
EFG Vol. 2. We hope to gain knowledgeable opinions and experiences in
designing polyculture groupings for use in an existing forest
edge/meadow/grasslands habitat. We also welcome the less knowledgeable who are
willing to learn as well as those interested in playing an active roll in
managing our Trust.

We will be proposing, discussing and evaluating many polyculture
groupings. Fruitful timing and use of a 3 story canopy are major factors. We
are planning to plant these different polyculture groups in separate
"zones" designated by sunlight saturation. These groupings should be
based on 3-5 plant inter-relationships and focus on edibles, but also
incorporate browse and graze to favor animal guild rotation of the zones.
Plant hardiness can be zone 2-8. Our plan is to implement the finalized
polycultures immediately; currently Permagra manages 54 acres in Essex
and has a goal to manage 300+ by this time next year. Most of the
property has been untouched or 15-50+ years and is protected as conservation
land.

We will also be discussing any research or experience regarding
perennials tolerance to salinity of soil water.
Specifically Genus: Vitis.

If you would like to propose a polyculture grouping to be discussed
and planted please feel free to email me personally with any questions or
ideas so that your grouping (guild) can be on the charts.

This project may be the largest scale edible forest garden implemented
in New England; there is going to be a learning curve here.

Permagra group is meeting publicly for the first time on
Sunday March 11th, at Noon. (daylight savings time changes this day)

Held at: 130 Eastern Ave. Essex, Ma 01929

Lunch and refreshments will be provided; donations welcome!

I'd love to hear about any ideas you all have!
Looking forward to your replies and hope to see you all there.

Joe Rueter
Permagra Founder
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#23 From: "Peggy" <peg6012@...>
Date: Sat Feb 17, 2007 2:51 pm
Subject: LINK TV special peg6012
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Has anybody seen: "you are what you eat"?

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#22 From: polyculturepeople@yahoogroups.com
Date: Mon Jan 22, 2007 10:07 am
Subject: New file uploaded to polyculturepeople polyculturepeople@yahoogroups.com
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Hello,

This email message is a notification to let you know that
a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the polyculturepeople
group.

   File        : /Not seeing the forest for the trees.pdf
   Uploaded by : nocompost <mudguard@...>
   Description : Not Seeing the Forest for the Trees -Chris Evans

You can access this file at the URL:
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t%20for%20the%20trees.pdf

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#21 From: "ethan roland" <eroland@...>
Date: Mon Jan 22, 2007 3:15 am
Subject: some thoughts on polyculture design plink23
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Polyculture People!

Hello, my name's Ethan Roland, I am Permaculture designer + teacher living in northeastern north america (humid temperate climate, min temp = -30 deg F) and I am interested + passionate about the development of perennial polycultures. I work and study with Dave Jacke, who I feel has really penetrated deeply into many of the questions of perennial polyculture design... especially volume 2 of Edible Forest Gardens contains a myriad of practical and theoretical tools to aid our evolving designs.

I've been following the recent exchanges on the list with great interest --   it's good to think about some vegetable polycultures as well as the fruit-berry-nut and associated perennial vegetables-ground covers-dynamic accumulators-insectaries. I have a several foerst garden plots planted throughout the northeast, with acres more going in this spring... I've learned tons already but there's always more, so I really appreciate the discussions opening up here.

Some responses to Niels' questions, from my point of view:

Any given polyculture design is deeply dependent on your specific goals for the system. How big is the 'community'? What kind of yields do you want out of the system? Is it an abundance of a single species or a diversity of species? When do you want the yields? What are the moisture, sun, and soil restraints on obtaining various outcomes? As Dave Jacke has clarified for me, the way we define the problem determines the solution we find for it.

I think Niels' "soloist" is definitely one framework we might use to design polycultures. Through some of my consulting, I have developed plant communities to support various specific species of fruit in a commercial orchard setting, for example the pear. The goals for the design were:

1. Reduce insect pest pressure on the fruit (lowering pesticide + labor inputs)
2. Reduce disease pressure in the orchard (lowering fungicide + labor inputs)
3. Reduce water + nutrient competition from understory grasses.
4. Improve the nutrient content of the top- and sub-soil.
5. Diversify the yields of the system.

Working from the goals, I carefully analyzed the site: Overall climate condtions, existing pest problems, existing disease problems, moisture constraints and availability, sun and shade conditions, Soil type + nutrient content, and the current orchard yields.

I then synthesized the goals with what the farmscape was telling me. Solutions are as follows:
(1) pest pressure: generalist + specialist insectaries: anisse hyssop, white clover, comfrey, yarrow, sweet cicely.
(2) disease pressure: broad-leafed herbaceous perennials to keep scab locked in the groundcover: comfrey, sorrel.
(3) taprooted plants outcompete grasses + successfully partition vertical undergound space for limiting water resource: comfrey, sorrel, clover, yarrow.
(4) dynamic accumulators and a nitrogen fixer: yarrow, anisse hyssop, chives, chicory, sorrel, comfrey, and white clover.
(5) all plants are additionally edible or medicinal: yarrow, anisse hyssop, chives, chicory, sorrel, sweet cicely, comfrey, and white clover.

Furthermore, most of these plants are partial-shade tolerant (useful under the pear canopy), and we organized under the trees + in the rows to facilitate access + circulation for harvest + pruning.

Achillea millefolium    (yarrow)
Agastache foeniculum    (anise hyssop)
Allium    schoenprasum    (chives)
Cichorium intybus    (chicory)
Myrrhis    odorata        (sweet cicely)
Rumex    spp.        (sorrel)
Symphytum spp.        (comfrey)
Trifolium repens    (white clover)

Hence, my design grew out of a clearly articulated set of goals, which directed my site analysis and assessment, and eventually

Another design framework we might use is Ecosystem Analogs (described in detail in Edible Forest Gardens), where we observe a productive natural system and mimic it's structure and function by choosing plants that fill similar niches as we observe. An especially exciting system to mimic might be the wild apple + apricot forests of Kazakhstan... there's a little more about this on my website ( www.appleseedpermaculture.com), and lots more coming soon -- this is an area of active research for me.

In terms of language, Bill Mollison sets out a relatively clear set of possible interactions that can occur between any two species in the Permaculture Design Manual. This work is drawn from a 1976 paper on 'interaction geometry' written by Rolfe Leary - I can send it along if anyone's interested.

And there's so much more! I'd love to hear your feedback and further ideas - let's keep things growing!

In Peace,
Ethan

--
Ethan C. Roland
(518) 610-1375

AppleSeed Permaculture
Design - Teach - Advise
www.appleseedpermaculture.com

Northeastern Permaculture Wiki
www.northeasternpermaculture.wikispaces.com

8th International Permaculture Conference, Brazil, 2007
www.ipc8.org

" You can count the number of seeds in an apple, but you can't count the number of apples in a seed" - proverb via Paul Krafel

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#20 From: Niels Corfield <mudguard@...>
Date: Sun Jan 21, 2007 11:06 am
Subject: Gaias Garden -Toby Hemenway a brief review -for those who don't know it nocompost
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Gaia's Garden is a book written by Toby Hemenway. The tagline is "A Guide to Home scale Permaculture".
It has a chapter on intercropping and polycultures. The examples given in this chapter include the Jarjarkot system, Chris Evans' Polyveg or Mixed Vegetable Gardening system, (apparently with some modifications by the author, plant varieties I presume) and Ianto Evans' similar annual veg system.
To date this is the only book that gives detailed examples of polycultures, especially so for a temperate climate.
It also has some interesting chapters on guilds and multiple guild assembly, centred around trees.

Though I sometimes find the writing style a little annoying (the whole "let's see now...." thing), but I have found the book to be useful and interesting, especially in its use of "real world" examples for a temperate climate. I don't think the author has experimented extensively with the examples he gives but they are logical and well described. I am referring here to his examples of Apple tree- and Walnut tree guilds but certainly the polycultures he lists, mentioned previously, are well tested, wouldn't you agree Chris?

There is of course the usual inclusion of permaculture theory and basics but the author treats the subject nicely. I like his section on water management, especially the inclusion of the "5 Steps to Water Wisdom". These being mostly made-up of measures associated with the management and retention of organic matter on or in the soil.

Perhaps it would nice to get the opinions of other owners of this title?
For now I would recommend it to students of permaculture and ecological gardening.

My Bookmarks:
http://del.icio.us/entrailer
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http://www.flickr.com/photos/nielscorfield/
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Groups I Contribute to:
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http://uk.groups.yahoo.com/group/leeds_permaculture_network/?yguid=243022692
http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/scythe
Swillington Permaculture Forest Garden Project -Aerial Image (Now Quite Old):
http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?f=q&hl=en&q=LS26+8QA&ie=UTF8&z=19&ll=53.760874,-1.428051&spn=0.000943,0.00339&t=k&om=1

Chris Evans wrote:

what's the Gaia's Garden article? who's Toby?
I'm in Dorset about to start a PDC til 4 Feb then 28th back to Nepal til May
best
Chris
On 13 Jan 2007, at 22:38, Niels Corfield wrote:

Chris,

Yeah I can see the similarity with Ianto's system. Both of you get a write-up next to each other in Gaia's Garden so they are easy to compare. Although Toby did some adaptations, he says, any thoughts on that?
I read this article, I have a copy of the book and a digital version, if you'd like a copy. Was a little disappointed with it I have to say, but, your article is good'un. I completely agree with you on this, it is quite easy to over-look the factor of time, and again, not "see" it. I mean how can you do that? How can you illustrate to people the fact that what you are seeing, as in all biological systems, is at once a remnant, a presence and a full potential; old man, young woman and child of many races, in fact a whole continent zoomed-in. It is every bit of time expressed in biological form: happening, happened and waiting to happen. Climax is latent in every landscape, poised, waiting but very hard to see, especially as there are no true forms in the landscape to be seen, well almost none. We are so long since this that we are divorced from it (climax forest) and it's culture, or rather our culture and it.
Actually though, this copy is formatted differently to the Overstorey one, the diagrams are good. I will read it again.
Have read it again, and passed-out a few copies.
Can you tell me a bit more about some of the data you draw upon? I'd like to follow-up on the research into forest soil inoculants and also to find some reference on tree spacings for temperate climates.
What's you plan for this year? Any chance our pathes might cross? Hope so.

All the best,
Niels

My Bookmarks: http://del.icio.us/entrailer My Pics and Projects: http://www.flickr.com/photos/nielscorfield/ http://picasaweb.google.com/mudguard Groups I Contribute to: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/polyculturepeople/ http://uk.groups.yahoo.com/group/leeds_permaculture_network/?yguid=243022692 http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/scythe Swillington Permaculture Forest Garden Project -Aerial Image (Now Quite Old): http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?f=q&hl=en&q=LS26+8QA&ie=UTF8&z=19&ll=53.760874,-1.428051&spn=0.000943,0.00339&t=k&om=1

Chris Evans wrote:Hi Niels

cheers for all this - have started trawling thru but not finished yet. Fine about posting polyveg. Cld link with your flickr account?? sounds easier esp to write captions.
bytheway reading Marsha's stuff - remembered an article i wrote back in 1990 in the early days which is attached. It was posted on Overstory (http://www.overstory.org) years ago. Shld also say that Ianto's polyculture work was one of the components of my own, together with Fukuoka, ayurveda & others.
best
Chris

On 8 Jan 2007, at 08:47, Niels Corfield wrote:

Chris, will post the polyveg booklet to the list, is this OK?
Also I'd like to get your polyculture and agroforestry online. Do you think you might like to start a Flickr account of your own, or would you like to just link to mine? It would be great if you could add comments to the images once they're posted. I need to upgrade mu subscription for another year also.

All the best,
Niels

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#19 From: Chris Evans <cevans@...>
Date: Sat Jan 20, 2007 7:24 pm
Subject: Re: Thinning in Polyveg cevans_42
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Hi Niels
responses below
cheers
Chris

On 19 Jan 2007, at 22:09, Niels Corfield wrote:
>
>  Chris,
>
>  some clarifying questions to your responses. If you will.
>> briefly, some answers to your questions:
>>  in the polyveg system, thinning is harvesting - you're eating what
>> you thin. It can also be compared to a forest thinning - you thin to
>> improve the environment for others
>
>> when? fastest I've seen is mustard 16 days after sowing. They were
>> pulled out in clumps (there's a piccie of that)
>>  Which ones to take? where it's thickest & biggest.
>  -Pulling whole clumps, or trying to "even-out" the cover? again
> roughly.
   both - they can be the same - pulling clumps &/or evening out the
canopy. pull too much & u create a space that other growing plants
can't fill. Pull too little & u risk crowding/supression of the
understorey. What u take out is being taken out for a purpose; what u
leave in is being left in for a purpose....

>> You can be quite vigorous - up-coming plants as well as remaining
>> earlies will fill out quickly
>>  trim or pull whole plants? either - pull or cut, even scissors are ok
>
>> if u miss a thin? - dangerous as it will reduce quality of what u
>> harvest AND what is to be left. basically thin heavier if late
>
>> roots - u won't get such a good root if you're harvesting the leaves,
>> so it's a compromise - some of each, or completely harvest for leaves
>> (even if it's a "root crop" species), leave the ones u want for roots
>> alone
>
>> thinning of mustard & other GMs? leave seed plants, the rest can go
>
>  As soon as they are up? 1st set of adult leaves, for example?
sounds good tho the bigger the plants are the more yield you're getting
per plant - the point is that u can start to harvest early & from then
on yield increases as the system matures

>  ---Another class of plant not really mentioned is fruiting plants:
> beans/peas and large plants from starts or sets. How to deal with
> these?
the legumes are another important group to have in & important as they
often fix N or otherwise feed on different parts/nutrients in the soil.
Plants from sets/bulbs/seedlings e.g. onion (set), garlic (bulb),
brassica seedlings, etc. add to the diversity, scent, leaf shape,
texture etc. - the article describes the use of all these. Plants from
sets have a head start otherwise they may get suppressed/shaded/hidden
by the fast growing spp. and they will mature slightly earlier.

>  Do we want to plant a selection of early and late cabbages, for
> example, to spread the harvest?
sure

> How do we decide when to cull pea vine or a bean plant, for example?:
>   - Soon after full cropping drops-off?
>   - Wait to the bitter-end to get the most beans?
>   - Transplant fast growing bush beans to replace culled individuals?
>  or - Look at what else is going on in the bed and remove plants
> according to growth and size of neighbours?
all the above - it's what best suits us as harvesters & the bed as a
managed system

>
>  -Could we then say there is something of a hierarchy of thinning
> (related to timing as well)?
>  1  GMs = ruthless, no mercy.....they've gotta go!! (apart from seed)
>  2  Greens (mustards etc) = we like these but don't let them get too
> crowded, or too dominant.
>  3  Roots (radish, beetroot) = careful! we want some roots as well, so
> be sparing.
>  4  Transplants/large plants (cabbage, beans, garlic) = removed when
> plant goes over or is mature
sounds good - yes 1 is earliest, 4 latest

>  --Further to this can we say there shouldn't be any issues with
> bolting? Just the odd plant left for seed.
depends on the variety - u can design against bolting with timing,
selection of variety, etc
>
>  --Also, what about varietal purity when saving seed in a polyveg bed?
> Any advice here? Is it an issue?
u need to decide which variety (within groups that will cross) u want
seed from & eat/mulch the rest before flowering
>
>
>  Many thanks.
>
>  All the best,
>  Niels
>  PS For those of you waiting for the Mixed Veg Gardening handout, I
> tried to email it to the list but it will not let me. So I will add it
> as a document on to the site asap. The same will go for pictures.
>
>
>    <K Gdn x07.1 polyveg 8 wks_resize.jpg>

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#18 From: Niels Corfield <mudguard@...>
Date: Fri Jan 19, 2007 10:09 pm
Subject: Re: Thinning in Polyveg nocompost
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Chris,

some clarifying questions to your responses. If you will.

briefly, some answers to your questions:
in the polyveg system, thinning is harvesting - you're eating what you thin. It can also be compared to a forest thinning - you thin to improve the environment for others

-ah if only the plants were that big, that you could actually see the stems.

when? fastest I've seen is mustard 16 days after sowing. They were pulled out in clumps (there's a piccie of that)
Which ones to take? where it's thickest & biggest.

-So how much to take in these areas? Roughly, 20%, 30%?
-Pulling whole clumps, or trying to "even-out" the cover? again roughly.

You can be quite vigorous - up-coming plants as well as remaining earlies will fill out quickly
trim or pull whole plants? either - pull or cut, even scissors are ok

-Have you ever seen a bed over thinned?

if u miss a thin? - dangerous as it will reduce quality of what u harvest AND what is to be left. basically thin heavier if late

-So are we talking daily? Or something of that order. At least between inspections.

a "correctly" thinned bed should never lose its canopy of if so only for a minimum of time. it should maintain a diversity of species, leaf height, shape, colour and scent. It should provide continuous harvests of greens, leading up to roots, stems, flowers and ultimately seed. A maintained canopy restricts weed growth and conserves moisture.

roots - u won't get such a good root if you're harvesting the leaves, so it's a compromise - some of each, or completely harvest for leaves (even if it's a "root crop" species), leave the ones u want for roots alone

-But you do suggest young radish leaves harvested as greens, no? So take it easy with these? But not so with other leaves?

thinning of mustard & other GMs? leave seed plants, the rest can go

-At what point are we talking here? What stage in the GM's (green manure) development?
As soon as they are up? 1st set of adult leaves, for example?

---Another class of plant not really mentioned is fruiting plants: beans/peas and large plants from starts or sets. How to deal with these?
Do we want to plant a selection of early and late cabbages, for example, to spread the harvest? How do we decide when to cull pea vine or a bean plant, for example?:
- Soon after full cropping drops-off?
- Wait to the bitter-end to get the most beans?
- Transplant fast growing bush beans to replace culled individuals?
or - Look at what else is going on in the bed and remove plants according to growth and size of neighbours?

-Could we then say there is something of a hierarchy of thinning (related to timing as well)?

GMs = ruthless, no mercy.....they've gotta go!! (apart from seed)
Greens (mustards etc) = we like these but don't let them get too crowded, or too dominant.
Roots (radish, beetroot) = careful! we want some roots as well, so be sparing.
Transplants/large plants (cabbage, beans, garlic) = removed when plant goes over or is mature

--Further to this can we say there shouldn't be any issues with bolting? Just the odd plant left for seed.

--Also, what about varietal purity when saving seed in a polyveg bed? Any advice here? Is it an issue?

Many thanks.

All the best,
Niels
PS For those of you waiting for the Mixed Veg Gardening handout, I tried to email it to the list but it will not let me. So I will add it as a document on to the site asap. The same will go for pictures.

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#17 From: Niels Corfield <mudguard@...>
Date: Fri Jan 19, 2007 8:30 pm
Subject: Pruning Not Thinning in Polycultures nocompost
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Marsha,

a question regarding management in your polycultures.
I see you recommend pruning, to regulate the amount of light available
to key species, the example you have given is maize, would this be the
case for any light-loving annuals in the system?
Further to this can you tell us why there is no provision for thinning
regimes in your systems? Am I correct in this assertion?
Can we make any broad comparisons between your systems and Chris Evans'?
The similarities and the differences, perhaps, from what you have
gleaned of his systems.
More key points clarified:
how are planting densities for your systems calculated?
how frequently do you recommend people should check their fields? Daily,
weekly etc.

Many thanks in advance, hope all is going well for IPC8.

Love,
Niels

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#16 From: polyculturepeople@yahoogroups.com
Date: Sat Jan 20, 2007 12:33 pm
Subject: New file uploaded to polyculturepeople polyculturepeople@yahoogroups.com
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Hello,

This email message is a notification to let you know that
a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the polyculturepeople
group.

   File        : /3. Polyveg.pdf
   Uploaded by : nocompost <mudguard@...>
   Description : Mixed Veg Gardening (Polyveg) Booklet

You can access this file at the URL:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/polyculturepeople/files/3.%20Polyveg.pdf

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#15 From: Niels Corfield <mudguard@...>
Date: Fri Jan 19, 2007 9:55 pm
Subject: Patterning Plants in Polycultures nocompost
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Any of you folks out there.....

another eternal question.

How to arrange plants in a community.
Do any of you good folk have any tips on how to pattern plants in a polyculture? How to design the structure of a plant assembly?
For example, if one looks at just one "layer" (strata or level) in a polyculture/forest garden/agroforest, say the tree or canopy layer, then how would you decide how to arrange the different species one wishes to plant? That is assuming you know which species you want to plant. Obviously there are known issues to take into account: pollination, fertility requirements and benefits, speed of growth, allelopathy etc
As well as this, it is known that there are no hard-and-fast rules but can people offer some advice on a process for designing plant associations. Without designing down to the individual plant each time, for each situation.
Are there any general rules that people have come to use? Ways of characterising tree or plant types and associations , perhaps even some adjectives that might describe favoured combinations of tree/plant.
As a side note to this last line of questioning it would be worth invoking vocabulary commonly used to describe trees in groups: grove, orchard, copse, wood, forest etc. Obviously these terms can be quite variable in their interpretation but I think it is worthwhile to muse on the possibility of having a new set of terminology to help tease-out the level of detail we may well eventually end-up working to. A case in point: the Eskimos with their 13 words for snow, we probably have a similar number of words for rain and they none.
It is interesting for example that the word forest has been invoked more frequently in polyculture/permaculture circles: forest garden, food forest etc. I wonder how many adjectives Amazonian indigenous have for the subtly different character of different parts of the forest. How would you describe, for example, where a food source was located (bee hive, termite's nest, nut tree etc) without some method of delineating the appearance or nature of different parts of the forest. In this case it is likely that all of the large trees in an immediate area around the settlement may be known by its own name (e.g. George the Brazil Nut tree).
So we can at once add detail to a seemingly boundless endeavour by working with language; describing both the whole, the individuals, and the small groups that exist simultaneously in a polyculture/plant community (forest, orchard, garden, field, bed etc.) Often the individual can be the starting-point for a polyculture, a key species around which a polyculture is designed. That said it will still not be the only player in our orchestra, perhaps just the soloist, all other elements will need to be in key, so as to avoid cacophony (chaos). It interesting to think that to untrained/western eyes most diverse natural plant communities appear chaotic. We are unable to perceive the form or structure of plant communities as a whole above 3 or 4 constituents, let alone plan a management strategy for it! Which may well be an explanation for the tendency towards monoculture, in more than just plant husbandry!
The process may well be classified as composition, just like that of music. And as such it is important to separate the score from the performance, that is to say we are writing the score and the plants will perform it, in their own inimitable way. To add a level of detail to the analogy we might term the process: composition for an improvised work. Whether we are composing for a quartet or for an orchestra the rules are consistent.
Some that I can think of as I write are:
Not everyone changes at once -there is consistency and change -soloist and accompanists. Key species (perhaps a cash crop plant or major tree) and support plants (Nitrogen-fixers, insectaries, mineral accumulators etc).
Surprising and unexpected things can happen at any time during a performance
Plants don't really read musical scores.

That said might any of the more experienced folk in our clan be able to offer some more detailed advice to the lessors of us on the topic of design and creation of plant communities (polycultures) than what I have offered in the way of analogy to the process?

It's time to start planning those polycultures for the coming season.

All the best,
Niels

-- My Bookmarks:
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Swillington Permaculture Forest Garden Project -Aerial Image (Now Quite Old):
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#14 From: Marsha Hanzi <mhanzi@...>
Date: Wed Jan 17, 2007 3:47 pm
Subject: Re: Thinning in Polyveg mhanzi
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Thank you so much for a wonderful post, Chris! I would like to buy your manual. I have never been particularly good at veggies, especially since I tend to like the weeds better! Actually now in the dry season our garden is producing seven types of edible weeds, as they are more resistant to the climate than the veggies. But am gearing up to try once again...Just has to rain ( we are in the summer dry season).

Marsha In Brazil

Chris Evans <cevans@...> wrote:

Hi Niels
briefly, some answers to your questions:
in the polyveg system, thinning is harvesting - you're eating what you
thin. It can also be compared to a forest thinning - you thin to
improve the environment for others
when? fastest I've seen is mustard 16 days after sowing. They were
pulled out in clumps (there's a piccie of that)
Which ones to take? where it's thickest & biggest. You can be quite

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#13 From: Chris Evans <cevans@...>
Date: Tue Jan 16, 2007 9:05 pm
Subject: Re: Thinning in Polyveg cevans_42
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Send Email

Hi Niels
briefly, some answers to your questions:
in the polyveg system, thinning is harvesting - you're eating what you
thin. It can also be compared to a forest thinning - you thin to
improve the environment for others
when? fastest I've seen is mustard 16 days after sowing. They were
pulled out in clumps (there's a piccie of that)
Which ones to take? where it's thickest & biggest. You can be quite
vigorous - up-coming plants as well as remaining earlies will fill out
quickly
trim or pull whole plants? either - pull or cut, even scissors are ok
if u miss a thin? - dangerous as it will reduce quality of what u
harvest AND what is to be left. basically thin heavier if late
a "correctly" thinned bed should never lose its canopy of if so only
for a minimum of time. it should maintain a diversity of species, leaf
height, shape, colour and scent. It should provide continuous harvests
of greens, leading up to roots, stems, flowers and ultimately seed. A
maintained canopy restricts weed growth and conserves moisture
roots - u won't get such a good root if you're harvesting the leaves,
so it's a compromise - some of each, or completely harvest for leaves
(even if it's a "root crop" species), leave the ones u want for roots
alone
thinning of mustard & other GMs? leave seed plants, the rest can go

best
Chris

On 16 Jan 2007, at 17:09, Niels Corfield wrote:

> Hi peeps,
>
>  Wondered if you had any feelings on the process and importance of
>  thinning in polycultures.
>  I know Chris, you mention it particularly, in your manual entitled
> Mixed
>  Veg Gardening, also known as the Polyveg system. I'll enclose that in
>  another mail shortly.
>  But I wanted to get some more detail on this topic if possible. Do you
>  have any advice you give when asked how to make selections in the
>  thinning process.
>  Questions like for example: when should I start thinning?
>  How do I know which ones to take out and how many should I take?
>  Should I trim or pull whole plants?
>  If I miss a round of thinning, by being away for example, how should I
>  approach getting it back to a more optimal state?
>  Also, what should a "correctly" thinned bed look like?
>
>  I understand there are no hard-and-fast answers to these questions
> but I
>  think the debate can help to illuminate the subject, since it seems
> this
>  is the key management role, where for example if not carried-out at
> all
>  productivity will drop. Is it then, for example, possible to over-thin
>  the plot.
>  What about thinning root crops (e.g. radish), or the harvesting of
>  radish greens? If you are taking leaves from these crops will they
>  re-grow OK?
>
>  As well as this, how does the novice gardener tell which leaves are
>  which, when young? Is it necessary to differentiate clearly when
>  thinning young leaves for greens? You recommend people thin mustard
> and
>  other green manures heavily, is the aim then to basically thin them
> out
>  completely, thus ending their presence in the polyculture, or just to
>  reduce them?
>
>  I hope it is clear that most of these questions are aimed at the
> novice
>  polyculturist/gardener but I must say that I find it very confusing
>  standing in front of a mixed bed and wondering where to begin, so any
>  info will be helpful, I think.
>
>  All the best,
>  Niels
>
>  --
>  My Bookmarks:
> http://del.icio.us/entrailer
>
>  My Pics and Projects:
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/nielscorfield/
> http://picasaweb.google.com/mudguard
>
>  Groups I Contribute to:
> http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/polyculturepeople/
> http://uk.groups.yahoo.com/group/leeds_permaculture_network/?
> yguid=243022692
> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/scythe
>
>  Swillington Permaculture Forest Garden Project -Aerial Image (Now
> Quite Old):
> http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?
> f=q&hl=en&q=LS26+8QA&ie=UTF8&z=19&ll=53.760874,
> -1.428051&spn=0.000943,0.00339&t=k&om=1
>
>
>

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#12 From: Niels Corfield <mudguard@...>
Date: Tue Jan 16, 2007 5:09 pm
Subject: Thinning in Polyveg nocompost
Offline
Send Email

Hi peeps,

Wondered if you had any feelings on the process and importance of
thinning in polycultures.
I know Chris, you mention it particularly, in your manual entitled Mixed
Veg Gardening, also known as the Polyveg system. I'll enclose that in
another mail shortly.
But I wanted to get some more detail on this topic if possible. Do you
have any advice you give when asked how to make selections in the
thinning process.
Questions like for example: when should I start thinning?
How do I know which ones to take out and how many should I take?
Should I trim or pull whole plants?
If I miss a round of thinning, by being away for example, how should I
approach getting it back to a more optimal state?
Also, what should a "correctly" thinned bed look like?

I understand there are no hard-and-fast answers to these questions but I
think the debate can help to illuminate the subject, since it seems this
is the key management role, where for example if not carried-out at all
productivity will drop. Is it then, for example, possible to over-thin
the plot.
What about thinning root crops (e.g. radish), or the harvesting of
radish greens? If you are taking leaves from these crops will they
re-grow OK?

As well as this, how does the novice gardener tell which leaves are
which, when young? Is it necessary to differentiate clearly when
thinning young leaves for greens? You recommend people thin mustard and
other green manures heavily, is the aim then to basically thin them out
completely, thus ending their presence in the polyculture, or just to
reduce them?

I hope it is clear that most of these questions are aimed at the novice
polyculturist/gardener but I must say that I find it very confusing
standing in front of a mixed bed and wondering where to begin, so any
info will be helpful, I think.

All the best,
Niels

--
My Bookmarks:
http://del.icio.us/entrailer

My Pics and Projects:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/nielscorfield/
http://picasaweb.google.com/mudguard

Groups I Contribute to:
http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/polyculturepeople/
http://uk.groups.yahoo.com/group/leeds_permaculture_network/?yguid=243022692
http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/scythe

Swillington Permaculture Forest Garden Project -Aerial Image (Now Quite Old):
http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?f=q&hl=en&q=LS26+8QA&ie=UTF8&z=19&ll=53.760874,-1.\
428051&spn=0.000943,0.00339&t=k&om=1

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#11 From: Marsha Hanzi <mhanzi@...>
Date: Fri Nov 24, 2006 5:50 pm
Subject: Re: Marsha Hanzi New Polyculture model for 2007 mhanzi
Offline
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Since writing Niels we have changed our model. For
next year we have chosen an area with some shrubs and
trees, of types known to enhance the soil.

We have pruned them all, creating a rich carpet of
mulch and forcing resprouting ( we have sparse summer
rains now- the rainy season will start in May). By May
all will be well leafed out and ready for a second
pruning. Then we will pass an animal-drawn plow
superficially over the area ( it is easy with an
animal to work around trees in the system), and plant
polycultures, adapting each to the best micro-climate
in this area ( about 2 hectares),as there are various
soil types in this one area.

Marsha Hanzi
www.marsha.com.br
www.permacultura-bahia.org.br



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#10 From: Niels Corfield <mudguard@...>
Date: Thu Nov 16, 2006 1:56 pm
Subject: [Marsha Hanzi] Details of her Experimental Elephant Grass Polyculture System nocompost
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Elephant Grass Based-Systems

We are still experimenting with this. Just across the
path from the cashew field I implanted a citrus-based
field, with elephant grass (Miscanthus spp) at every meter.
Together with the grass we planted the short term
polycultures (cowpeas, corn, pigeon pea),
gliricidia [sepium?] (a legume tree), guavas,
and a few cashews.

The elephant grass is being pruned, as well as the
batônica, and twice we have laid coconut fronds over
the entire area (about 7,000 meters). The soil is
getting nice and dark, but the citrus are still
showing nutritional deficiencies, so we will probably
treat them with rock dust. Citrus is marginal for us
here, and will need minimal irrigation (about once a
month). We have planted aloe vera, and will plant
sisal as soon as we can get the material. The elephant
grass will phase out of the system. A part of it is
used to feed "Lisbela", our house milk cow, and then
her manure is made into compost and used on the trees.
Normally we don't compost trees, leaving them to
spread out their root system (in the tropics the
structure of the soil is much more important than the
fertility), but citrus seem to like this treatment
more than other fruit trees...

Marsha
http://del.icio.us/entrailer/Marsha-Hanzi

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#9 From: Niels Corfield <mudguard@...>
Date: Wed Nov 15, 2006 6:18 pm
Subject: [Marsha Hanzi] Gives and Outline of Her Dryland- and Ernst Gotsch's Agroforestry Model nocompost
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Niels,

Directives from the father of the system: Ernst Gotsch
Ernst argues that in an agroforests all the stories of
the vertical space must be occupied at all times in
order for the system to have its natural dynamic. Any
gaps will cause disharmony, leading to invasive
species ( who try to fill the gap) or lack of vigour in
the system as a whole.

So , on the same day, one plants:

1. Plants which occupy all the strata, in all the
successional phases. (i.e first phase would be
radishes, beans, corn, pigeon pea, the second would be
pineapple, pigeon pea, banana or papaya,with fast-
growing leguminous trees above, usually native trees).

2. Legumes which occupy all these strata and phases
(from cowpeas to long-term native leguminous trees)

3. Native plants- first because Nature knows what she
is doing for wanting them there, but also from the
ethic that should we die or turn our backs on this
place, it will revert back to native forest. Ernst has
actually done that on scores of hectares of
already-implanted agroforests, as he realized that he
needed much less land to work on and did not want the
hassle of employees. As you walk around this apparent
native forest you hear the thump of falling fruit! It
reminds me of Bill Mollison's first video "In Fear of
Falling Food". His forest farm has a very high animal
population as a result- lots of food. Even bands of
deer, which are practically extinct in the region.

4. Medicinals- if they are good for us they are
probably good for the system. Many medicinals
accumulate specific micro-elements. We use a lot of
aloe vera and "jurubeba" which, from the kind of
illnesses it cures ( including "tired husbands"!) is
probably a zinc accumulator, something our system
lacks. I would love to see some work done on these
plants!

5.Something to mark the system with, so you can find
your way around from the start. This is particularly
important if you are working with visitors, trainees,
or employees. At first Ernst just mixed things all
together, but then only he knew where things were.

Now he plants strips of pineapples at 2 meters, with
cassava on the left and pigeon pea on the right ( up
and down hill as to protect his back, otherwise you
have to work crooked. These systems have absolutely no
run-off anyway.) Together with the pigeon pea he plants
a mix of seeds from all phases (at every meter). He
then cuts the vegetation in the middle, usually leaving
any native trees he finds, uses it as mulch, and
plants elephant grass as a mulch source. (His system
is constantly evolving, so he may be experimenting
with other combinations now).

So you know that on the right side of the pineapple
strip there are new trees coming up, avoiding your
stepping on them.

In the drylands we use opuntia (a cactus) to mark the
fields, or then aloe vera (which is native). I also
used clumps of elephant grass. This is clear in the
photographs from the polyculture project.

We also have used cassava and even garden plants which
can be planted with stakes such as hibiscus.
Gives a pretty field, with all the flowers!

5. Mulch producers. these plants will be pruned to
increase the ground cover, especially important in the
tropics, where the metabolism of the soil is so high.
These can be anything from hibiscus to leguminous or
native trees, to elephant grass. Castor is
particularly important for us here. (In the
Polyculture Project it is a cash crop but not yet for
us).

When a plant goes into senesence (begins to get old)
it is pruned out of the system to keep the system
young and dynamic, ever growing.

As I said, all this is planted on the same day, if
possible. This is an ENORMOUS amount of planting
material! Calculating one plant per 30cm, this means
30,000 plants per hectare! So the limiting factor is
the material and time to plant it (especially in our
case in the drylands when our window of opportunity
for planting is days and not weeks).

The first year the system needs a bit of care every 2
months or so. As of the second year, one intervention
per year is usually enough, but this can vary wildly
according to the situation.

In the Polyculture Project the farmers have not
implanted large areas of the system, but increase the
plots gradually every year. Even so they use a lot of
the new strategies (mulching, recycling, pruning,
etc.) in the rest of their fields. It's actually a
new mindset, of seeing the field as a complex ongoing
system and not as a simple "thing".

Of course with time the system begins producing
planting material for new plots, making the
multiplication much simpler.

Marsha

Ernst Gotsch links
http://del.icio.us/entrailer/Ernst-G%C3%B6tsch

Marsha Hanzi links
http://del.icio.us/entrailer/Marsha-Hanzi

Agroforestry links
http://del.icio.us/entrailer/Agroforestry

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#8 From: Niels Corfield <mudguard@...>
Date: Wed Nov 15, 2006 6:00 pm
Subject: Email posting to the list from Marsha Hanzi nocompost
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Hello all lovely people,

This mail is to caveat a series of mails I will be posting later today.
They are copies of a correspondence between myself and the wonderful
Marsha Hanzi, on the topic of.............you guessed-it: polycultures.
Since she is something of a pioneer in the field I am very glad to have
her as a member of the group also.
But for now there are a number of postings she made that I have edited a
little and added some headings.

I Hope that you will find them of interest, feel free to make comments
to the list and ask questions, as Marsha is on the list now she will be
able to answer directly also, however there may be a some delay in
replies as she is in rural Brazil.

All the best,
Niels

--
My Bookmarks:
http://del.icio.us/entrailer

My Pics and Projects:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/nielscorfield/
http://picasaweb.google.com/mudguard

Groups I Contribute to:
http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/polyculturepeople/
http://uk.groups.yahoo.com/group/leeds_permaculture_network/?yguid=243022692
http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/scythe

Swillington Permaculture Forest Garden Project -Aerial Image (Now Quite Old):
http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?f=q&hl=en&q=LS26+8QA&ie=UTF8&z=19&ll=53.760874,-1.\
428051&spn=0.000943,0.00339&t=k&om=1

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#7 From: Niels Corfield <mudguard@...>
Date: Wed Nov 15, 2006 6:08 pm
Subject: Marsha Hanzi -A Short Summary of Annual Polyculture Research nocompost
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Niels,

Annual Polycultures as Stepping-Stones to Permanent Agroforests
As you can see, we use polycultures to implant
permanent agroforest systems, so they are a step in
the process. (Of course agroforests are also
polycultures!)

But I am also experimenting with polycultures for
annual crops. Still incipient. The basic strategy has
been to cut the area into thousand-meter fields
(20X50), to help in future measuring, surrounded by
agroforest strips this time based on dwarf cashews,
which are not so gigantic as our native ones. (One of
our two old trees , "Grandfather", has a diameter of
25 meters!)

The strategy is the same: rills with mix of seeds and
compost, covered with mulch. But we also do some more
traditional fields. Beans and opuntia do well, for
example.

What Comes First
We are discovering the dominance of plants. Our corn
dominates first, if there are too many in the mix. The
other plants just sprout and sit there, with the
exception of cowpeas. In the absence of corn, sesame
dominates, so one has to get these two in right
proportions (one per meter) to give the other
elements a chance to produce...

Will have more on this as of June of next year ( the
rains come in May, but it will be an El Niño year,
sniff...)

Marsha

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#6 From: Niels Corfield <mudguard@...>
Date: Wed Nov 15, 2006 6:02 pm
Subject: Marsha Hanzi -Polycultures and Agroforestry Systems in Bahia nocompost
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Hi Niels,

Agroforestry and Polyculture Practice
I am doing a lot of experiments, but for the time
being we have two basic models we are experimenting
with:
One is based on the cashew tree, which is incredibly
rustic in terms of succession. I started out in bare
white sand as my land is the bed of a prehistoric
river and had been ploughed to plant watermelons. There
wasn't a weed on the place! But we have a clay layer
two meters down, and lots of subsoil water in our
region, which makes it perfect conditions for trees,
once they get their roots down, so the situation is
much better than it seems at first sight. I planted
opuntia at one meter intervals ( this is being done in
all the dryland polycultures), aloe vera at every two
meters ( will plant more as planting material becomes
available), and also sisal at about the same distance,
to give a permanent green ground cover in the dry
season. Also these three plants are all known to
create better soil, even by the local farmers.

Early Attempts, Mixed Results
The first year we hoed out the short-term weeds and
substituted them with short-cycle polycultures. But
the soil is SO fragile that we did not manage to get
as good a cover as the native weeds. (DUH!). So this
year we have left the native ground cover, which has
complicated our life a bit, as it is VERY efficient!
The local farmers actually hate this plant, because it
chokes out everything else, but we have come to love
it.

As the cashew trees were the first tree element to
establish with vigour, this year I planted them at
every three meters, with intention of leaving at every
twelve in the end. The best trees will be selected (
there is enormous biodiversity of cashew fruits -
small, large, sweet, sour, early, late, red,
yellow,golden - wonderful! The intervening space will
be occupied with other fruits ( guavas, mangoes,
soursops, custard apples, pineapples, and several
native fruits).

On the Question of Nature and Succession
According to the successional theory, you would take
out the pioneers and substitute them with plants from
another successional phase, move the system along, so
to speak.

But after some years of observing, I saw another
strategy happening here: each year Nature lays down
one more layer of this viny, rustic, plant
("batônica"), creating a natural mulch layer. As of
the third year the first bushes begin to arrive.
(However, some parts of my land are so fragile, where
I have not yet had time to intervene, after three
years of "resting" the native plants have barely
managed to cover the soil, reaching no more than 30cm
of height!)

This situation with the cashew is really an anomaly,
because it is our "noble" tree, i.e., the endpoint of
our succession, in terms of production (there are
some woody trees which would occupy a more evolved
successional niche which we are also planing), so my
strategy was created on the spot, and seems to be
working.

Establishing Cashew Agroforest
We planted the whole 6 hectares this year with cashew
seedlings from our nursery. But the direct-planted
cashews did as well, so next year we will not bother
to make seedling in the nursery.(I have since bought
10 more hectares of land).

The strategy now is to enrich the system with much
more biodiversity. This is done similar to the
Polyculture Project: we hoe out strips of the
vegetation, make a little rill, and scatter a mixture
of seeds and compost, with everything from radishes to
noble trees. A big player for us is pigeon pea, a
wonderful plant to work with. It is a basic element in
our diet. Castor is also important, as it mobilizes
boron as well as other micro-elements.

Overseeding and Weed Management
Again, in the polyculture project the number of seeds
is calculated exactly. But we found from accident
(thanks to an over-enthusiastic trainee) that
overseeding helps keep the weeds at bay. In any case,
one has to manage the weeds at least once, cutting
them back so the plants can dominate.

I intend to use this strategy next year to implant a
wood-based agroforest on 3 hectares of our worst land,
(another area different from the cashew system), but
will first spread rock dust from a nearby quarry, which
is high in micros [nutrients], to give the trees a boost. I
believe that as of the second year I can have light
sheep grazing there...let's see.

The moral of this experience is that we have to really
ask what strategies Nature is using, and imitate
those. What I am discovering is that the strategies
can vary from one region to another...

Marsha

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#5 From: Niels <mudguard@...>
Date: Sun Oct 15, 2006 7:59 am
Subject: Re: Hi nocompost
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Suzi,

Welcome.
And what can I say? CHeque's in the post, mate, thanks.
Though I am the same, learning lots when people visit and from you yesterday, with cuttings and allium life-cycles.

I'll do a Swillington project profile soon, so others on the list can find out about it.
But for now Swillington is the forest garden project I am part of near Leeds, UK.

For now, links are shown below.

All the best,
Niels

-- 
My Bookmarks:
http://del.icio.us/entrailer

My Pics and Projects:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/nielscorfield/

http://picasaweb.google.com/mudguard

Groups I Contribute to:
http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/polyculturepeople/

http://uk.groups.yahoo.com/group/leeds_permaculture_network/?yguid=243022692

Swillington Permaculture Forest Garden Project -Aerial Image (Now Quite Old):

http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?f=q&hl=en&q=LS26+8QA&ie=UTF8&z=19&ll=53.760874,-1.428051&spn=0.000943,0.00339&t=k&om=1

On 15/10/06, suzi_cherrytree <silverbirch@...> wrote:

Hi, just joined, thanks Niels. Good day at swillington yesterday
pottering with currants and secateurs. As ever time spent with Niels
is an education.

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#4 From: "suzi_cherrytree" <silverbirch@...>
Date: Sun Oct 15, 2006 7:04 am
Subject: Hi suzi_cherrytree
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Hi, just joined, thanks Niels.  Good day at swillington yesterday
pottering with currants and secateurs.  As ever time spent with Niels
is an education.

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#3 From: Niels Corfield <mudguard@...>
Date: Wed Oct 4, 2006 9:32 am
Subject: Re: Hi group nocompost
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Hi Anna and all.

Nice to see you on.
Wanted to ask if you will have a digital camera with you?
If so, bring us home some nice pics, please.
If you're not using it already, this software is the easiest and quickest method to upload pics to the web, http://picasa.google.com/.
They offer 250MB free and a one-click method to upload your "web albums", see link below.

See what you think.

Cheers,
Niels

http://del.icio.us/nielscorfield
http://www.flickr.com/photos/nielscorfield/
http://picasaweb.google.com/mudguard
http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/polyculturepeople/
http://uk.groups.yahoo.com/group/leeds_permaculture_network/?yguid=243022692

anna.kissed wrote:

Just joined this group as I'm sure it will be interesting but
excuse my lack of communication from now on til Xmas as I'm off to
Madagascar tonight and will have minimal email opportunities.
Should provide plenty of scope for future discussion though!

All the best

Anna

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#2 From: "anna.kissed" <anna.kissed@...>
Date: Tue Oct 3, 2006 5:56 pm
Subject: Hi group anna.kissed
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Just joined this group as I'm sure it will be interesting but
excuse my lack of communication from now on til Xmas as I'm off to
  Madagascar tonight and will have minimal email opportunities.
Should provide plenty of scope for future discussion though!

All the best

Anna

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#1 From: Niels Corfield <mudguard@...>
Date: Fri Sep 29, 2006 7:54 pm
Subject: Hi to You Both nocompost
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Hey Rowan and Wendy,

Nice to see you on the list.
We are the first.
I have not been checking it so I didn't see you all join till just now,
so Hi.


But I really got a lot out of the presentation at the convergence, it
was my first time talking on the topic dearest to my heart, so thanks
for coming.
What did you think of the session?
It would be good to have a little de-brief of the talk, and perhaps do a
plus, minus, interesting analysis also.
It will be my first of those also.

At the moment my head is all full of thoughts of plants and seeds and
i'd like to get it out of my head.
But I have some new photos of the forest garden I am working-on, which
you can link to below.

Nice to hear what is going on for you guys.
I think we can be quite informal while it's just the 3 of us.
For now I will continue to based in the Leeds area.

If you can remember what, if any of the documents I brought to the
session you would like, I will email them to you, as many as you want.

All for now.

Regards,
Niels

--
http://del.icio.us/entrailer
http://www.flickr.com/photos/nielscorfield/
http://picasaweb.google.com/mudguard

http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/polyculturepeople/
http://uk.groups.yahoo.com/group/leeds_permaculture_network/?yguid=243022692

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